Failed MK RCBO circuit breaker (with awkward recording moment)
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- This breaker is a combined overcurrent and leakage device. It had a fault where it wouldn't reset, and the issue was annoyingly trivial.
If you wonder why there's an awkward bit in the video it's because I left the camera running when I was exploring the circuitry. The channels Patreons suggested I leave it in as a glimpse of what goes on in the jump-cuts.
Thomas Nagy's channel can be found at:-
/ @thomasnagy
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:-
www.bigclive.co...
This also keeps the channel independent of RUclips's advertising algorithms allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty.
If you listen very carefully during the silent part when Clive is trying to figure out the test button you can actually hear the cogs turning in his brain.
Sam Clubb I thought Clive ran on punch cards!
100011100011
In my case, dense coal smoke is emitted.
Smoke from life expired Rifa brand paper X2 250V mains suppression capacitors is much more impressive, it sneaks almost silently out of equipment and then announces it’s presence with a fowl smell 🤣
I herd a fart
Quietness while Clive's brain looks through the in brain encyclopedia. Priceless 👍
The ‘wtf are these’ out of the blue made me laugh 😆 love your videos
Caught me off guard tbh. Not accustomed to clive swearing, but I guess hes glaswegian and I should expect that
By far one of my favorite videos due to the rarely seen silent Clive moments where you try to figure out what is going on. I understand you forgot the camera was recording but it gave me a real good laugh.
Just became a Patreon, loving the more raw videos lol.
They're not normally quite this raw. This is when you guys have to let me know I've screwed up and filmed while I thought I had paused or stopped. At least I didn't say weird things and beatbox this time.
@@bigclivedotcom I look forward to those. Love ya!
@@bigclivedotcom you did let an F bomb go.....😁
Is the "bigclive does beatbox" a patreon only video?
@@totherarf It's also in the outtakes of Men In Black II. They decided Clive beatboxing was too weird even for them.
I don't think he knew he was filming while he was reviewing the circuitry
LOL I thought that. Lots of silence then 'What the fuck are these'
I got that feeling too, lol.
Came here to find this comment. When he was showing us footage where he wasn't commenting, my heart sank. "It's about to bite him, isn't it? That's why he's included this"? I was too stressed to continue until I read this.
You're absolutely right. This sometimes happens and gets caught by the Patreon supporters. At least I didn't say weird things and beatbox this time.
@@bigclivedotcom I liked it in this case, though! Could really feel the gears spinning in your head as your worked through the construction of the thing.
Before I watched I thought you were going to trip the whole house RCD and then have a "one moment please" moment lol
It's a great feeling knowing you've been learning by watching videos like this. As soon as you mentioned the ferrite toroid, I knew how this thing was detecting faults (well, one way it detects them). Something I would have not known just a year or two ago.
Seems like a pretty elegant way to do that, although, I wonder if you could create a circuit to trigger with all discrete parts instead of that special IC.
Seems like it wouldn't be too hard, but I'm guessing that chip ultimately allows them to use fewer parts.
Edit: grammar
The amount I've learnt just from watching this channel every couple days is insane lmao
Yes you can make a discrete RCD. I took apart a Chinese clear RCD in a video and the circuit was basically just a thyristor, diode, capacitor and resistor.
I suggest a monthly challenge: screen-lickers acquire an instance of a well-specified item (such as this GFCI) and scheme, plot, plan, and execute its disassembly, deconstruction, and re-formulation into one or more _useful_ items using only the components found within; video and ruthlessly edit the proceedings, including 'doodles', and the finished product in the process of doing what it was designed for, to fit within 240 seconds; Clive posts these, with comments, in by-object playlists, for general hilarity and edification.
Cash prizes? Maybe later.
Maybe one day the 'special IC' will have a hole in it to pass the power leads through and make the whole thing a one chip wonder.
Screwdriver, eh? A friend of mine calls those UPT for universal prying tool.
Have you looked up 'spudger' ?
I prefer "prydriver" myself.
Prize of Knowledge.
I absolutely adore those little hollow metal screw drivers. There was one in an "all in one" soldering starter kit I bought to check for a friend, and loved it so much that I went on Amazon and bought a box of four of them, so I could have them everywhere! A side benefit, the bare metal strips are an excellent way to quick check continuity on a new multimeter!
I had to check the connections on my headphones because never have I heard of such silence from Clive! ...the concentration was real!
i thought my earphones weren't working for a min, but you were just thinking!! : )
the burnt contacts could make it trip offline by arcing when trying to close, more so if there was large inductive loads like switch mode power supplies, which most everything has these days!
I love it - the breaker broke Clive. Ctl-Alt-Del works great for this. Thank you Clive for being a real human and showing us yet again it’s ok to be quiet while learning. I wish other RUclipsrs would do this.
The long, studious silences were every bit as compelling as the narration. Silence is content.
I missed the awkward recording moment, though. Anyone else?
Please don't encourage him. He might start doing teasing pauses before opening things up - like they do on telly before announcing results !
I was thinking LCBO, Liquor Control Board of Ontario, the bane of a large fraction of Canadians...
The bane AND LOVE of a large fraction of Ontarians ;)
@Adymn Sani Tim is owned by a Brazilian, its not even a Canadian store.
@@Francois_Dupont "not even Canadian" other than the fact that it was founded in Canada, it's headquartered in Canada, and more than 80% of the locations are in Canada, you mean?
@@hobbified "RBI is majority-owned by the Brazilian investment company 3G Capital"
"Wendy’s International Inc. acquired it that year, and in 2014 U.S.- and Brazil-based 3G Capital merged it with Burger King under a new parent company, Restaurant Brands International. " "On August 26, 2014, Burger King agreed to purchase Tim Hortons for US$11.4 billion;[12] the chain became a subsidiary of the Canadian holding company Restaurant Brands International, which is majority-owned by Brazilian investment firm 3G Capital, on December 15, 2014."
@@Francois_Dupont yes, I'm aware. But that doesn't mean anything for practical purposes.
Interesting how the leakage test is done, very simple really, quite ingenious.
Having seen the schematic: when the SCR starts to conduct (is triggered, via the ZCT detecting a flaw in the AC lead) the bridge rectifier burns out. So that schematic is not OK.
The solenoid should be in series with the SCR. On that schematic, the solenoid is completely absent.
@7:00 it's actually the other way round, the bimetallic strip moves in the oposite direction (bends towards the left) pulling the metallic hook back and tripping the switch
when he swears it catches me off guard, its funny
Thanks for breakdown of the AC MCB - almost brand new, separation of arc is shown nicely, sensor unit & C.T. similar to old SOLCOR Protection.
MMM Cliff Quickcheese...
And still I'm left wondering, does he talk to himself during edits, this awkward moment in the recording gave no hiints. :P
He’s said in the past Usually in his “perceived non recording state” he says things to prepare what to say when he’s actually filming lol
the schematic in the datasheet is using the SCR to trip the overcurrent mechanism in the breaker. This manufacturer chose (wisely imho) to use a separate trip coil. That's the reason the breaker in front of you doesn't match the datasheet.
Clive are you going to build that high voltage tester I sent you last year? Would be nice to see you putting it together.
I never heard so much silence on this channel,grandmaster your concentration goes to another level .
That was accidental. I didn't realise I was still recording,so you saw a bit of what goes on behind the scenes.
I imagined it is not easy to keep the video recording times, Thank you Grand Master, good job.
That circuit diagram seems to be for a cheapo version that just shorts out the mains and blows the fuse or trips a breaker when there's leakage current.
Sometimes, shorting the mains is the preferred way to switch off the power because it's faster than switching off with a switch. Much faster.
Like the arc protection systems in some medium voltage substations ("medium voltage" is usually "tens of kilovolts"). An electric arc in such a power station would burn everything to a crisp in milliseconds. So the arc protection systems look out and listen (with optical and acoustic sensors) for any sign that an arc is beginning to form. If it receives such a sign, the incoming power lines are simultaneously shorted with a rather massive copper bar. Voltages behind this short drop to near zero and everything is back under control (some big high voltage fuses will eventually separate the power station from the rest of the grid for good, but this may take tenths of seconds).
Oh, yes, since these power stations deal with rather high voltages, the copper bar needs to travel quite some distance until it reaches the main lines it needs to short out. No slow spring-loaded mechanisms here. The timely arrival of the copper bar is ensured through acceleration by explosives.
Wow, thank you for the "Being Big Clive" moment. For a period of time I was transported into you mind while looking for the location for that safety/test button. It's like I was right there searching for the wear marks and how the button was installed. It was amazing, thank you.
Ah the depth of thought where everything does into an awkward silence while investigating things, I know that feeling very well... :P
As a journeyman electrician in America I must thank you for this video, I have replaced several similarly shity objectionable current sensing overcurrent protective devices with simple issues. But a new replacement always solves the problem. $$$
Interesting how such a tiny piece of plastic flashing overlooked in quality control can completely disable a product.
It's a metaphor for how the world works -- and how it fails! The devil, they say…
@@michaelthibault7930 Well, at least it failed safe, ensuring the safety of everyone.
There should be a collection of examples where some tiny part let the hole thing fail. Neat example: TV on/standby button supported by plastic hook, latter is part of the single-piece housing. Hook broke due to too much pressure on button caused by long startup delay, customer thinks the hole thing does not work anymore, does not turn on anymore, wants new tv and does not even consider a repair involving glue and costing less than 15€, labour included.
A 0.1 mm piece of flash in a mass air flow body can make a car run poorly so it was a tightly monitored tolerance when I made them.
@@l3p3 Boeing 737? Max ?????
That little "what the fuck are these ?" surprised me more than a bit xD
My favorite part of this video, BigClive says
“What the fuck is that?” Then followed by a long period of silence.
Finally managed to watch, this video wouldn't play earlier (pops kettle on, makes breakfast) 🥖🥣🍳🥝🥐🥐☕☕☕
Hey Clive, Its interchangeable with the M54123L which has a much better datasheet and shows the additional external components.
This one really intrigued you Clive, not known you to go so quiet on your videos. 🙂👍 Great video as usual.
Indeed, or use 'WTF' on air.
Interesting failure. I've been enjoying Thomas' channel from one of your past recommendations, it's been most refreshing during the lockdown.
I prefer the other guy - David Savery - the humour is a much better class.
8mins in and I'm anxious.... What is going to happen... What is the awkward moment.... A zap? Spudger related injury?....
John Ward has some good videos on these as well.
Fascinating how large your circuit breakers are. Here in North America (except on dedicated circuits), you'd rarely find anything higher than 15 or 20 amps (at 120v of course). Granted, I understand that the NA and UK circuit designs are quite different. We generally have dedicated circuits (kinda like a hub and spoke model) as opposed to ring circuits. I also think our circuit breakers are designed to trip if the current exceeds the rating by a much lower margin (I'm not sure of the exact margin, I'd guess 10-15%).
Lol that moment when big clive has a brain fart moment
Quote of the day has to be "What.the.fuck.are.these? [extremely long pause] Okay? [extremely long pause] VG54123" I enjoyed that - it's how my thought process would have gone looking at the same problem
Surprised he didn't spot the test button was sticking in, but then he would have been wanting to get on and get the job done.
Thanks Thomas for donating it for troubleshooting and taking to bits.
I have to say I really enjoy you and Thomas working together on these. I watch both of your channels purely for enjoyment and very good they both are.
Can I also recommend David Savery Electrical - similar to Thomas but a better class of humour.
@ 9:24 lmao
"What... the fuck are these?"
One simple line can have me in hysterics! hahaha!!
Why does it need a connection to the earth terminal? Most RCDs simply “compare” the current running on phase and on neutral, which should be the same unless there’s current flowing to earth. And it looks like this one is also doing exactly that, only using additional electronics.
I think it's to detect earth/neutral anomalies. I'll reverse engineer the PCB at some point.
bigclivedotcom Yeah, should have watched the rest of the video before commenting...
Very cool! Thanks, Thomas!
Thanks, Clive!
At first glance this looked like an RCCB, or remote control circuit breaker. They were widely used in the DC-10 aircraft to open high-current loads in the aircraft electrical load center while giving the flight crew a standard circuit breaker in the cockpit to indicate fault trip while still allowing manual trip and reset. Each RCCB was connected by a single wire to a standard, usually one-amp, circuit breaker in the cockpit. These cb's were indistinguishable from the other circuit breakers which directly controlled current passing from bus to load through its terminals. The ringed plunger topping the breaker popped out to indicate a remote breaker trip, and pushing it back in reset the remote breaker. Of course, no actual load current passed through the cockpit breaker. When the RCCB sensed a fault, whether it be short circuit, overload, or differential fault, it tripped the internal current contacts open, and simultaneously closed a contact that connected power from the RCCB control circuit to the breaker in the cockpit. Since the second terminal of the cockpit breaker was connected to aircraft ground, the current tripped the low-value breaker to alert the crew to the RCCB trip. Pushing the plunger back in restored the ground to the RCCB connection and caused it to reset. Usually, policy was that the flight crew could evaluate the situation and make a single attempt to reset if they felt it was safe to do so.
In the industrial/commercial electrical world there is a similar device known as a shunt-trip breaker. But shunt-trip breakers can only be tripped remotely.
@@brianleeper5737 "But shunt-trip breakers can only be tripped remotely."
@@BTW... You are correct. What I should have said is that shunt-trip breakers cannot be reset remotely, only tripped remotely (or via a manual switch, overload/ground fault, depending on the specific type)
It's just amazing how many people don't read the descriptions that would have made about 1/2 of these questions and/or comments unnecessary. Although I will say that this group of Clive followers DO seem a bit less dim than most! ;^)
@bigclivedotcom I think this one has 4 ways to trigger. The extra earth connection is there to detect DC problems that can a cure with larger battery chargers for care chargers and such. As they have high voltage dc and if there is a fault in that the normal RCD might not catch it as its not inducing a AC current in the coil.
The MK RCBOs just detect AC leakage currents - DC leakage saturates the coil and they don't trip. - see this for a discussion of car charger rcds etc
ruclips.net/video/QfUiI-1WsOA/видео.html
At around 4:50 that u-shaped piece of metal is actually there to increas electromagnetic force induced in arc runner by electric arc during overload to speed up its travel to arc chamber.
Amazingly complex and labour-intensive to assemble, I'd suggest.
@@johncoops6897 VCR! Yeah, try a bicycle on Christmas Eve :)
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Clive stumped for words before 😳
9:25 I also quite often find myself saying, "what the fuck are these?" When I am trying to repair my customers things.
i wonder if this was one of the "recalled" ones from the MK catastrophe year of 2016 where MK recalled an absolute shed load of RCBO's The recall cost our firm around £9k in labour to replace all the faulty RCBO's
Do you what exactly the PE cable is good for? It seems it could trigger without so I’m missing something
It isn't a PE its a Functional Earth. If the neutral were broken it provides a current path for the trip mechanism to fire.
@@johncoops6897 This breaker does not have any internal connection between the neutral wire and the white earth wire, therefore the only current that will ever pass through the tiny white wire is what the internal electronics allow to pass through, which is probably on the order of 10mA or so.
Thanks for your input. In my application Earth is PE connected to a inverter enclosure and a earth rod in the soil. Live and neutral goes from inverter to a RCDO which has only 2 wires in and out. Earth is not available on the RCD. Appliances have PE connected. In a case of an human body in the loop I would also think that the human is standing on the ground/floor in 99% of the cases right? So all is well? Thanks
@John: okay, the inverter is indeed fully isolated but there is an interference filter inside the inverter (own board) between Neutral and Chassis/Enclosure/PE which can be disconnected by disconnecting a ring terminal. I have he filter connected. Therefore if I measure between Live and ground I measure half sine voltage. Interestingly when I use a screw driver for checking for live it’s lights rather dimly on ground and neutral and full at live. Maybe it’s just 1mA that is flowing I wonder... Does that observation make sense? Thanks again, much appreciated!
the other thing is that the reverse can happen and the button just sticks in with age, requiring unnecessary force to set off
"What...the fuck are these!?"
- Big Clive, 2020
Presumably it'd have to trigger instantly on a neutral fault because if there were one it'd rapidly lose power and be unable to break the circuit anymore.
Does it even have enough charge in those caps to fire the solenoid in the case of a power loss?
(I think this my depend on where the neutral got broken whether there was a power loss)
The circuit, as on the schematic drawing, will short the mains when it trips. Must be a bang bug,
Circuit breaker? What's that? In the US we just wait till all the moisture cooks out of our bodies and we let go.
I have a video teardown of a U.S. power plug with one of these in it. I'm not half as smooth and clear at explaining things as Clive is tho.
@@deltab9768 That appears to be an older GFCI outlet you tore down, it doesn't seem to have any automatic self-test circuit in it. All the new ones since approx 2015 are required to have automatic self-testing.
Interesting! That one definitely had a test button on it, but how does the auto self test work? Does it trip itself at a scheduled interval? And yes, I think this one was very old. It had seen some serious wear and tear and eventually had to be replaced.
@@deltab9768 Here is what IAEI Magazine says: The auto monitoring or self-test feature periodically tests the electronics from the sensing toroid to the trip solenoid driver and will pick up a failure of the majority of components in the GFCI. It cannot, however, test the trip solenoid driver, the trip solenoid itself or the contacts to see if they are welded. Testing those components can only be done by actually making the GFCI trip. It is not practical to have GFCIs randomly tripping off during self-test cycles. So the manual test button is still provided and it should still be used periodically as recommended. The presence of the self-test function is not allowed to affect the tripping of the device within the specified trip time requirements if an actual ground fault occurs.
thanks. That makes sense.
I thought the awkward moment was going to be on the level of a situation involving lack of clothing.
Or like the 'awkward moment' of him drawing male ''parts'' on his hand in his Tattoo Machine Teardown video.
@@Jakek200 ROFL :-)
The white cable should be for a path for the RCD to work in a neutral fault condition (it doesn't sense anything)
@@johncoops6897 neutral loss as the RCD side is electronic, I guess the older ones couldn't operate if that type of fault happened (unsure if the earthless RCD ones will trip if neutral is loss)
White wire is connected to Earth - Used for the test function, creating an imbalance of the Active and Neutral field effect in current transformer.
@@johncoops6897 neutral and earth are norm bonded at the incomming line where the line fuse is (for UK/eu) or there be a earth rod in some cases depends on condition not the consumer unit
USA seems to do it inside there consumer units
So it is possible to lose neutral even inside the box where the neutral bus bar is, the cable could fall out leaving circuit open live with no neutral (unsure if a RCD would trip under them conditions but as the live and neutral would not match any more I guess it would trip the RCD ), never say its not possible to lose neutral (3 phase and you get some fantastic if not expensive Magic smoke happens when you lose neutral)
An interesting test if he can test for that, pretty easy switch on the Neutral leg and switch it off while the power going through the RCD see if it reacts to it
I looked at the catalog page for this particular RCD and, according to the diagram, the white wire is one side of the power supply for the electronics. In other words, for it's power connections, the electronic circuitry inside this RCD has an internal connection to the "L - IN SUPPLY" terminal, and the connection to earth/neutral is done through the white wire which is listed on the diagram as "FE - White". So without this white wire connected, the electronics get no power. The catalog page says, "The neutral supply (blue) and earth supply
(white/cream) are provided via flying leads."
So yes, if the blue wire is disconnected or the neutral which it is connected to opens up, the RCD will still work as long as the white wire is still connected to earth.
@@leexgx I've never opened one up but my understanding is that the older RCDs are electromechanical and the power they need to operate comes via the sense coil when a fault happens. This was explained as the reason why GFCIs as used in the USA use a 5mA trip current while RCDs use a 30mA trip current---GFCIs use electronics and 5mA trip current setting is possible with electronics, but with electromechanical RCDs, 30mA is the lowest trip current setting possible. I suppose that in these electromechanical RCDs, the sense coil feeds a trip solenoid.
You'd think their QA processes would find the button issue
I guess the thyristor is fired and it shorts the bridge rectifier output and latches (since its in a DC circuit). I guess also that the yellow coil is in series with thyristor to keep the breaker in constant tripping status.
@@johncoops6897 In this case the SCR turns off and does not latch after tripping. In the datasheet schematic which John showed, the SCR is on the rectified mains side. For that reason I figured that they must be using it to keep the switch tripping continuously. Thanks for clarifying.
@@johncoops6897 check the in the link hereafter. It is close enough to our example. The coil is in series with the bridge rectifier so when the SCR is activated, the solenoid is energized to open the breaker. circuits.datasheetdir.com/206/LM1851-circuits.jpg
@@johncoops6897 Oh don't worry, I understand its mechanical operation principal. John Ward did a video on a similar type of RCD not too long ago. Here's the complete circuit in Clive's 2 year-old video. Thanks
@@johncoops6897 Because Clive said he didn't know why the SCR is shown like that in the datasheet. So I made an educated guess 😅
8:15 - 9:15 quietest I've ever heard Clive!
Interesting, it almost seems like there's usable op amps! I wonder if they can be re purposed for audio work? It would be a good reason why not to throw out an old failed RCD... An op amp with a built-in voltage regulator..
Pretty sure that at minute 8:15 Clive forgot he was shooting a video 🤣
My guess is he's had a few! 🤭
What do you think about the small din rail breakers, like sold on Amazon, for around $15, the AC, and DC versions, I have the 250 & 400 volt dc versions, and a couple 250v AC versions, are they any good? Are they safe, and what is the difference between the AC and DC versions, they look the same! Thanks
I would not trust inexpensive circuit breakers from manufacturers with unknown reputations for quality - especially DC breakers - stick with the major known brands. I’ve seen so many cheap breakers fail that it just isn’t worth the money savings as you can never have any real faith in them working as intended when you most need for them to function as intended! From breakers that just never broke the load under dead shorts due to contact welding to circuit breakers that after one trip failed to remake a connection. But at the voltages you mention, 250V and 400V DC, things can be downright scary in terms of arc flash on a trip under dead short because DC arcs are much harder to properly quench than with AC as DC has no zero-crossover point where the voltage drops to zero twice per cycle. Estimate what a catastrophic failure would cost you (in terms of equipment, wiring, fire, etc.), then determine whether the money saved on a cheap circuit breaker still constitutes “money saved” and then make your decision accordingly, but in my experience it simply is not worth the savings as we generally need to be able to absolutely depend upon a circuit breaker doing its job safely and reliably when and if things go very wrong.
"What teh fuck are these?"
Love it xD
You've made JW proud. :)
I remember when I was just getting into electronics when I was about 11 and now I'm 13, I took a 24v 12w 80mm brushless dc fan and stuck the wires in a kettle lead and and it sparked a lot and nothing happened no breaker no burnt coils only the huge cut on my finger from the blade of the fan and the lights dimming ALOT. The reason (I think you will know) why it spun is because of the diode to protect reverse polarity and the fan got really hot and it didn't explode because I pulled back so quickly because I was shocked, not by mains but by the big spark that scared me and no one noticed anything because it was summer morning and I was up late and I turned my lamp on and then saw the fan and decided to do that and no one knew a thing.
Detective big clive solves another case 🕵️♂️
Clive raw and unedited 🤣 love that haha
@bigclivedotcom I have a battery pack from a phantom drone that doesn't work (won't charge). Would you like it to take apart?
I prefer raw videos as its more insightful than a cut up one, tho if its not the first time its featured i don't expect to see a 20 minute video of said item
Can you do a video about how this thing breaks an arc, demonstrating it - like with a high speed camera? Sounds pretty interesting
It's not an arc breaker, just an over-current breaker with a bit of jiggery-pokery on the side to detect and break on a leakage. Arc breakers are a very different beast, get one to Clive and I'm sure he will video & say something......
@@18robsmith He specifically used this terminology, so why do you discuss with me about that? 🤔
@David M I don't care about kV arc breakers, I'm just curious how this unit works.
Here's a video of one breaking a high fault current:ruclips.net/video/850aO98OAyI/видео.html
Here's a video of one tripping on a lower current with a steady Direct Current instead of pulsing alternating current. The result is that arcs for longer and the breaker is destroyed.
ruclips.net/video/csMQ9A-4Pws/видео.html&app=desktop
The thing you called a Thyristors is a silicone controlled rectifier, it is a member of the Thyristor family. This is the same as saying there is an automobile. The following is a partial list of Thyristor types to name but a few. - Photo Thyristor LASCR, Gate Turn-off Thyristor GTO with Anode Gate, Reverse Conducting Thyristor, with Cathode Gate RCT, Thyristor SCS, Thyristor SCR, DIAC, BCT - Bidirectional Phase-Controlled Thyristor, FET-CTH (FET-Controlled Thyristor), MTO (MOS Turn-off Thyristor), IGCT ntegrated Gate-Commutated Thyristor, TRIAC, SIDAC, Quadrac.
nice to know im not alone in repeating part numbers out loud in order to remember them. im also watching this after work and had dosed off briefly to be woken to vg54123!!! its definitely in my head now
Last time I was this early, I was conceived. Thanks dad! 😏
I enjoy Thomas channel too we use Arc fault breakers here in the usa
This is equivalent to our GFCI circuit breakers with overload protection (GFCI + thermal-magnetic trip), Arc Fault (AFCI) is something else entirely (specifically, arcing or intermittent shorting between live and neutral) whereas GFCI/RCD is the unintended shutting of current from the live or neutral to ground through an unintended path (such as a human). However there are also combined AFCI + GFCI circuit breakers with overload protection. But Arc Fault protects against an entirely different type of fault and sadly were rushed into service a good two decades before the AFCI was adequately matured as a technology, which has made them very problematic as some can literally be tripped from afar with as little as a walkie talkie transmission in the general vicinity...and because entire subdivisions are often built with identical components, one legal radio transmitter can kill power to a,large number of homes in a some subdivisions through no fault of the radio operator as it is the AFCI breaker that is actually defective.
Love this one! All I heard was gears turning and a F bomb.
Can you connect all these kind of devices, like mcb-elcb-rcd- and any such "cb"s basically, in series and induce a fault and see which one will react faster? Or perhaps which device will save your life first?
RCD
@@johncoops6897 When I was testing an RCD (a Merlin Gerin Multi 9), I was using a GFCI protected circuit to do it. I created a ground fault and BOTH the RCD and the GFCI tripped. More recently, I was inspecting a GFCI protected circuit at my dad's house and I decided to trip the GFCI by connecting a test light between hot and earth/ground. Well, I managed to short hot directly to ground, and it tripped both the GFCI and the 15-amp circuit breaker.
This is the epitome of a deep thinker.
9:23 . . . "What the fuck are these??"
Maybe goddamn transistors or SCRs?
G'day Clive, great videos I always learn something new! Thanks 👍
I did a search for 'EARTH LEAKAGE CURRENT DETECTOR IC' and found a similar circuit with a relay coil in the anode of the scr, my guess is that they left it out on that diagram
The only other (dodgy) way is for the magnetic trip solenoid to be in series with the input, and the scr shorts the circuit.
The datasheet for the m54123l shows a magnetic trip solenoid in series with the input.
Thanks, but that doesn't explain the small solenoid, so i think the datasheet clive showed is wrong
@@sparkyprojects The datasheet clive showed is missing what is shown on the other datasheet for the original version of this chip.
Bugger. I was willing to bet the scots accent was just put-on for the camera until I saw this.
Is it just me or that datasheet is advocating the use of an SCR to sort out the mains and trip the circuit breaker?
Got a couple of questions for you Clive.
When the immersion heater is switched on to heat the water in the tank, the distribution board buzzes. Any idea why>
second question: I have an Anker battey bank (10,000MAh) it still has power but won't charge anymore? I can send it to you if you want to diagnose/repair it.
2nd one sounds like the charge port has broken on the device.
Buzzing distribution board is an odd one. Depends how that heater is switched. If it's switched directly, chances are there's something loose in the switchboard that is causing a vibration with the higher current. Alternatively, it's being switched via a contactor (big relay), these are known to buzz. You should hear a "clunk" at the distribution board when it's turned on and off if it is being switched via a contactor. If so, this is normal.
We have an MCB which buzzes when the shower is on, I can only surmise that it's a coil (or it's core) which is vibrating due to magnetostriction, but I could be way off! I work for national grid and the transformers tend to be noisier under higher loads, so noise in your protective devices is probably related to the increased current through the MCB or RCD.
@@Eddiecurrent2000 neat. Circuit breakers have a coil in them for the short circuit trip, but it's pretty uncommon for those to buzz because they've got such few turns, compared to a transformer with hundreds or thousands.
@@Thermoelectric7 It's more the core than the coil itself which causes the buzz in TXs and possibly because the shower in my case is 40A it's right on the limit of the MCB, and it could be the plunger on the MCB. When we test the old "clickety clack" electro mechanical relays you can often hear them start to buzz, just shortly before they trip, it could be something similar on the MCBs.
do you often talk to yourself as if youre making a video?
I really enjoyed your silent investigation. A side of you we seldom see (hear). Nothing awkward about that in my opinion.
There was one other when I unfortunately beat boxed and said weird things. The Patreon supporters thought it was hilarious.
@@bigclivedotcom Well your comment was the last push I needed. Signed up for Patreon today. Been thinking about it for quite a while now and are looking forward to exploring.
Reference schematic be like "Just short out the mains - that will cut the power off nicely".......... I assume any sensible implementation would activate the trigger coil via the SCR, because with the circuit as as drawn there must be a major risk that the SCR dies instead of the fuse/breaker
Yeah, it's weird how it's missing the trip coil unless that's in series with the mains. But I thought they might have included that in the schematic.
@@bigclivedotcom It's not missing the trip coil. A DP fault triggers the SCR which, as Kevin says, shorts out the mains. Apparently the quick-trip solenoid is used to open the breaker when it is hit with the overload.
I didntr catch if you said where it was made was it Cina ?
Is it common in other countries for the line to come in at the bottom terminal? I've only seen line on top and load at bottom here in the USA.
Yes
I have a couple of RCBOs, one made by ABB and the other by Merlin Gerin. Based on the diagram, those are to be connected with the line at the top, because the diagram shows that the top terminals connect to the circuit breaker, then the RCD and test button circuitry is connected after the circuit breaker. If you were to connect these with the line connected at the bottom, they would still work HOWEVER the test button circuit would continue to draw power even after the unit tripped if the test button was kept pushed down and it would probably burn out the the resistor in the test button circuit. 30mA at 240V is 7.2 watts and I guarantee you that the resistor in the test button circuit won't handle that much wattage for more than a few seconds...
Wired correctly with the line at the top, the test button circuit is disconnected from power when the unit trips.
Good video and breakdown @bigclivedotcom
i was expecting to hear at least a fart ! :)
I like the idea of a cat purring quietly; but I must admit, a fart among it would work well - especially during a close-up of a capacitor.
How am I supposed to watch 2 video's at the same time?.
I hate those, the extra earth connection makes circuit testing a nightmare