I try to keep the CO2 emissions in mind when a starter gets extremely active/wild in ABS machines. So take Harriet for example, when she is eating in buckets a lot of the CO2 gas gets trapped in bubbles and rises the starter to a point. CO2 gas from the culture can become a regulator to the culture/maturity at that point. Best way I was taught it was think about what do yeast need to thrive? The same as us, food, water, oxygen. When they consume all 3 the byproducts borderline contaminate or deplete all 3. So if all the air around you is now depleted of oxygen and replaced with CO2 then the yeast will slow down. In the ABS levain machine that CO2 is getting knocked out with every agitation from the stirring arm and just enough oxygen is redistributed into/through the starter that it actually ferments even more completely without the visual signs of rise/fall. So when I start to notice my starter getting too crazy strong I will switch to a steeper temperature drop setting on the machine (program 1 my normal temps program 2 my uh oh she's a mad starter!!! faster cooling temps). But generally speaking I will only switch to program 2 in the summer when the room temp starts causing noticeably stronger starter. Nine times out of ten if my starter gets a lil crazy but not too crazy I will just adjust my water temp to closer match 80-85F final starter start cycle temp.
Respectfully .. that's not what is going on .. yeasts and bacteria ferment anaerobically (no O2 required) .. yeasts replicate in clusters through a process called budding .. the point of stirring is to ensure a more even and efficient distribution of fermentation throughout the starter .. the higher hydration is so that it can be more easily dispensed, but this also affects and in fact accelerates the fermentation .. cooling slows fermentation activity, but so will reducing the water in the dough to compensate for the additional water in the starter .. it's not clear here whether Jon has (importantly) changed his overall formula .. even a 2-3% change in hydration will significantly affect fermentation as well as handling, shaping, etc. .. and btw, (imho) changing the feeding ratio and the inoculation aren't the way to go either, because of their impact on the fermentation and therefore ultimately on final product, in particular flavor .. The simplest thing to do here would be to calculate the additional water required in the starter and deduct it from the overall formula .. the dough of course will be stiffer, so an adjustment may also be needed at mixing to avoid gluten damage ..
@@RGS61 question: if he does indeed keep innoculation the same, increases H2O for consistency to get it out of the ABS, and decreases dough H2O. Will that be enough to tame the starter? Or will he have to decrease time of starter ferment as well? I guess we will find out which lever ultimately works for John but I would make the same decision he made and decrease innoculation first before messing with throwing timing out of whack.
Respectfully, yeast ferment and produce different byproduct both anaerobically and aerobically. Based on the context of the environment they find themselves. Basically do you want more acid? Anaerobic fermentation! Want more gas/levening? Aerobic respiration!
@@rblongfellow I think dialing in the overall temperatures of the maturation is way easier than reformulating every single formula to account for hydration%.
I would think that expensive ABS tank has some kind of programmability. I would not make any changes in the starter ratios, leave Harriet as she was prior to moving here. If possible, I would disable the stirring function. Start with this as a baseline and see how different Harriet behaves wrto the original environment. If for some reason, she’s still overly active, I would dial down the temperature a bit, then reassess. Only then I would mess with ratios if things don’t behave as before.
I could be wrong, but from a biological perspective, if you add more water, and are slowly stirring the starter, the yeast will have a more efficient environment to access the sugars in the flour and the oxygen from the air. If yeast has less oxygen (as it did in the sealed buckets) it will ferment more readily, creating more CO2 and more rise, but if more oxygen is introduced to the starter (as it is through stirring in the fermentation tank), the yeast will re-produce more readily and create less CO2 from fermentation. This ability for yeast to switch between fermentation and reproduction based on the oxygen available is otherwise known as the "Crabtree Effect." So it would make sense that your starter is rising less, but more potent. Maybe less Harriet and more flour and water in the recipes could help? There's a good portion of the "Modernist Bread" book by Nathan Myhrvold and Francisco Migoya of Modernist Cuisine dedicated to the topic of the micro biology of yeast propagation. Of course, I'm sure you guys have the process under control and I appreciate the fact that every baking scenario has more variables than just the ones mentioned above. Either way, glad to hear that Harriet is living her best life in the new facility. I love the videos and have really enjoyed watching you guys grow. Thanks for sharing!
The Crabtree Effect isn't always assured, and in fact requires high concentrations of glucose, which is not typical of sourdough .. some yeasts will still opt for fermentation versus respiration as a method for producing ATP .. In this instance, the Pasteur Effect might possibly be in effect, considering the stirring and relatively low level of glucose ..
@@RGS61 Thanks for insights, and great to know. I really only have a rudimentary understanding as I am far from a microbiologist. Whatever the case may be, I just always seem to get a more powerful, but less bubbly starter when it's high hydration, and I stir it along the way.
Hi Jon - If I am not mistaken, this all started with you noticing the increase in fermentation activity in your dough, stickiness of the dough during shaping, and additional volume in the final product .. which began when you adjusted the hydration of your starter (from your 'garage ratio' of 2:4:4 to your new 'bakery ratio' of 2:4:5 .. correct?) to enable it to flow more easily out of your new starter machine .. that 25% increase in hydration of your starter, with an inoculation ratio of 20%, is a 5% increase in overall hydration is a relatively 'massive' increase that will dramatically change the fermentation and rheology of the dough, and the quality of the final baked product .. the yeasts and bacteria will ferment faster and produce more gas, the gluten strength will not develop as much, while extensibility will increase, which combined with the overall larger volume of dough, will result in a dramatic increase in the volume of your bakes .. The first/simplest thing to do here is to deduct the 25% increase in hydration of the starter from the dough .. it will result in a a stiffer dough at initial mix/autolyse, so care needs to be taken to avoid gluten tearing by perhaps mixing on a slower speed and/or for less time .. although ironically, since gluten forms better at lower hydration, you may be able to reduce your mixing time and add in a bit longer autolyse which is always more preferable .. Overall, the issue here is hydration not fermentation .. although, your new machine will do a much better job of enabling starter fermentation than you can do by hand .. yeasts replicate in clusters, stirring enables more even distribution of fermentation ... Something else to consider here .. a pH tester .. for a professional baker an inexpensive and invaluable tool for understanding your fermentation cycle that will pay dividends in terms of quality and repeatability ..
@@helenjohnson7583 Thank you! .. 'A' clue about what has changed is in the previous video, where Amanda mentioned "we changed the sourdough starter, but didn't necessarily change the recipes in the same ratio" .. when you do the math, and from experience, a 5% difference in hydration throws everything off .. and because baker's percentages (for the most part) remain the same regardless of total dough weight, it is even more impactful for domestic bakers when they repeatedly dip their hands in water to mix, stretch and fold their dough .. it can be 1-2g each time x 5-6 time = 10-12g / average 400g flour for a single loaf dough = 3% .. which is a lot, given that at 80% hydration the gluten in most bread flours is already fully loaded ..
@@RGS61 I’ve always thought about this dipping your hands in water while doing S&Fs, it doesn’t take much water to throw things off when dealing with small quantities as domestic bakers do. I don’t know what your thoughts are on this new tank Jon acquired but I believe it’s causing him more grief than he bargained for and is it really necessary to have it? Aside from being able to pour out and weigh it directly, what other benefits is it providing? The occasional stirring? Now he’s leaving a bunch of starter at the bottom that didn’t pour out.
Place your tank on load cells to measure its weight. Then you will know exactly how much starter is left in the tank. As sophisticated as that unit is, I'm surprised it doesn't have that feature. It would aid in loading ingredients too
I would absolutely agree that what you have left in the bowl is making a difference. I would also have to be certain not to change too many things at once so I would know what works. Thanks again for sharing all of this with us wanna-be commercial bakers!
Hey love your channel and your new place looks beautiful. Congratulations! Regarding the starter, have you considered measuring the pH of your starter to determine its activity?
Aside from the fact that you can pour out the starter and weigh it directly as it pours out, what is the benefit of that big vat? It seems to me it is causing more headaches than providing benefits.
I think Jon is reaching out for guidance and resources, through experience here, as there is more support here, than around him, with his current challenge. Based on his past icredible work ethic, and support of his wife, and excellent staff, in getting this far, l can only wish for him, and everyone involved, success...... As always. 🇺🇲😉
Hi, im from India, and im an aspiring baker. Can you do 1 video of where you share some of your big equipment's, like what are the essentials. love your videos. thankyou
Your new means to make your sourdough is more efficient than your old bucket system. I suggest reducing the amount of Harriet going in. A reduction in temperature will also control volume. As long as you are getting those delicious volatiles, the acetic and lactic acids that deliver flavour and pH.
You could also reduce the innoculation on your final dough and keep that super-active harriet on his way. Or look at the microscope and search for the differences. Have a nice weekend!!
less water in your ratio, we use a starter as a sponge so its hydration isn't too precise when we measure but anytime its too wet our buckets try to explode edit after watching the whole thing, yea I bet the extra starter in the bottom,
I remember when i told you that i use a liquid form of sour dough starter and how effective it was. I wish you would have listened to me on my advise. You need now to tapper down on the speed it works. It is not hariot in a new devise. It is hariot in a liquid form that accelerate it. Please do the adjustments according to how mu a liquid hariot is, rather than temperature. Temperature is crucial, but is not the total picture of what is happening. Also liquid starter in the oven will make all breads rise more. You have it right on how well developed it is. Developed starter means faster stronger rise. The bacteria groups in the developed starter will react different than the un-developed. I use my liquid starter after one day to allow the groups of bacteria to form. Time is important to making groups. How much liquid you add is important. How much temperature change is less important. You will learn all these things in time, be flexible, be able to re-learn the old ways out, be always loving to Hariot. Peace, Love Lazaro
I have recently switched to a liquid starter as well (Bread code channel) and you're absolutely right. I also like that it's a more mild scent and flavor. Down side is adjusting recipes for the increase in hydration. Worth it though.
When you refer to a liquid starter, what ratios of starter, flour and water do you use? Harriet is a liquid starter; a starter resembling dough would be considered a stiff starter. I have seen starters that are almost transparent and pour out like water, is that what you are referring to?
Yes the water is basically clear like you mentioned. The water is basically 5 times the weight of the flour. Say 15 grams of Harriet, 30 grams of flour and 150 grams of water. You may want to check out the Bread Code channel.. Hendrick really lays out the science of it but from what I gather the extra water decreases the oxygen, converting acidic acid to lactic acid. I probably got it wrong but you get the point. I kinda thought it was BS but have noticed a much different smell and a more yogurty flavor. Took a few days but defiently noticeable.
A possibility to save time might be to find the average amount that stays in the tank and just leave it in without scraping it. I obviously don't know how often you clean your tank fully, but if it's not a daily thing leaving the remainder in the tank and just adding to that could be a thing.
Why don't you just subtract the weight of the remainder from the weight of starter you would normally add to the vat. You already know the weight of the water, the weight of the flour and the weight of the starter you put into an empty vat. Now just subtract the total weight of starter you removed from the vat and you have the weight of the remainder. Subtract the weight of the remainder from the weight of the starter you wish to add to the vat and you have the weight of starter you need to add to the vat.
Seems like poor extraction design on their part. I mean it's perfectly level and there's nothing forcing it out of course it's not gonna easily come out. Doesn't seem like something that even helps you guys might as well just ferment in a big bucket at room temp same diff. Maybe switch to a truly liquid starter?
Why in the heck have I become obsessed with Harriet's well being?
Truth! Harriet could have her own podcast. She's so feisty.
I try to keep the CO2 emissions in mind when a starter gets extremely active/wild in ABS machines. So take Harriet for example, when she is eating in buckets a lot of the CO2 gas gets trapped in bubbles and rises the starter to a point. CO2 gas from the culture can become a regulator to the culture/maturity at that point. Best way I was taught it was think about what do yeast need to thrive? The same as us, food, water, oxygen. When they consume all 3 the byproducts borderline contaminate or deplete all 3. So if all the air around you is now depleted of oxygen and replaced with CO2 then the yeast will slow down. In the ABS levain machine that CO2 is getting knocked out with every agitation from the stirring arm and just enough oxygen is redistributed into/through the starter that it actually ferments even more completely without the visual signs of rise/fall. So when I start to notice my starter getting too crazy strong I will switch to a steeper temperature drop setting on the machine (program 1 my normal temps program 2 my uh oh she's a mad starter!!! faster cooling temps). But generally speaking I will only switch to program 2 in the summer when the room temp starts causing noticeably stronger starter. Nine times out of ten if my starter gets a lil crazy but not too crazy I will just adjust my water temp to closer match 80-85F final starter start cycle temp.
Respectfully .. that's not what is going on .. yeasts and bacteria ferment anaerobically (no O2 required) .. yeasts replicate in clusters through a process called budding .. the point of stirring is to ensure a more even and efficient distribution of fermentation throughout the starter .. the higher hydration is so that it can be more easily dispensed, but this also affects and in fact accelerates the fermentation .. cooling slows fermentation activity, but so will reducing the water in the dough to compensate for the additional water in the starter .. it's not clear here whether Jon has (importantly) changed his overall formula .. even a 2-3% change in hydration will significantly affect fermentation as well as handling, shaping, etc. .. and btw, (imho) changing the feeding ratio and the inoculation aren't the way to go either, because of their impact on the fermentation and therefore ultimately on final product, in particular flavor .. The simplest thing to do here would be to calculate the additional water required in the starter and deduct it from the overall formula .. the dough of course will be stiffer, so an adjustment may also be needed at mixing to avoid gluten damage ..
@@RGS61 question: if he does indeed keep innoculation the same, increases H2O for consistency to get it out of the ABS, and decreases dough H2O. Will that be enough to tame the starter? Or will he have to decrease time of starter ferment as well?
I guess we will find out which lever ultimately works for John but I would make the same decision he made and decrease innoculation first before messing with throwing timing out of whack.
Respectfully, yeast ferment and produce different byproduct both anaerobically and aerobically. Based on the context of the environment they find themselves. Basically do you want more acid? Anaerobic fermentation! Want more gas/levening? Aerobic respiration!
@@rblongfellow I think dialing in the overall temperatures of the maturation is way easier than reformulating every single formula to account for hydration%.
I would think that expensive ABS tank has some kind of programmability. I would not make any changes in the starter ratios, leave Harriet as she was prior to moving here. If possible, I would disable the stirring function. Start with this as a baseline and see how different Harriet behaves wrto the original environment. If for some reason, she’s still overly active, I would dial down the temperature a bit, then reassess. Only then I would mess with ratios if things don’t behave as before.
I could be wrong, but from a biological perspective, if you add more water, and are slowly stirring the starter, the yeast will have a more efficient environment to access the sugars in the flour and the oxygen from the air. If yeast has less oxygen (as it did in the sealed buckets) it will ferment more readily, creating more CO2 and more rise, but if more oxygen is introduced to the starter (as it is through stirring in the fermentation tank), the yeast will re-produce more readily and create less CO2 from fermentation. This ability for yeast to switch between fermentation and reproduction based on the oxygen available is otherwise known as the "Crabtree Effect." So it would make sense that your starter is rising less, but more potent. Maybe less Harriet and more flour and water in the recipes could help? There's a good portion of the "Modernist Bread" book by Nathan Myhrvold and Francisco Migoya of Modernist Cuisine dedicated to the topic of the micro biology of yeast propagation. Of course, I'm sure you guys have the process under control and I appreciate the fact that every baking scenario has more variables than just the ones mentioned above. Either way, glad to hear that Harriet is living her best life in the new facility. I love the videos and have really enjoyed watching you guys grow. Thanks for sharing!
Are you a baker as well?
@@lyndaskailoveyou18 Yes, I'm an Audio Engineer professionally, but I bake bread in my spare time as a hobby.
The Crabtree Effect isn't always assured, and in fact requires high concentrations of glucose, which is not typical of sourdough .. some yeasts will still opt for fermentation versus respiration as a method for producing ATP .. In this instance, the Pasteur Effect might possibly be in effect, considering the stirring and relatively low level of glucose ..
@@playbuttonrecording4918 cool, your reply was very detailed, you know, engineer type detailed. Great to read.
@@RGS61 Thanks for insights, and great to know. I really only have a rudimentary understanding as I am far from a microbiologist. Whatever the case may be, I just always seem to get a more powerful, but less bubbly starter when it's high hydration, and I stir it along the way.
Hi Jon - If I am not mistaken, this all started with you noticing the increase in fermentation activity in your dough, stickiness of the dough during shaping, and additional volume in the final product .. which began when you adjusted the hydration of your starter (from your 'garage ratio' of 2:4:4 to your new 'bakery ratio' of 2:4:5 .. correct?) to enable it to flow more easily out of your new starter machine .. that 25% increase in hydration of your starter, with an inoculation ratio of 20%, is a 5% increase in overall hydration is a relatively 'massive' increase that will dramatically change the fermentation and rheology of the dough, and the quality of the final baked product .. the yeasts and bacteria will ferment faster and produce more gas, the gluten strength will not develop as much, while extensibility will increase, which combined with the overall larger volume of dough, will result in a dramatic increase in the volume of your bakes .. The first/simplest thing to do here is to deduct the 25% increase in hydration of the starter from the dough .. it will result in a a stiffer dough at initial mix/autolyse, so care needs to be taken to avoid gluten tearing by perhaps mixing on a slower speed and/or for less time .. although ironically, since gluten forms better at lower hydration, you may be able to reduce your mixing time and add in a bit longer autolyse which is always more preferable .. Overall, the issue here is hydration not fermentation .. although, your new machine will do a much better job of enabling starter fermentation than you can do by hand .. yeasts replicate in clusters, stirring enables more even distribution of fermentation ... Something else to consider here .. a pH tester .. for a professional baker an inexpensive and invaluable tool for understanding your fermentation cycle that will pay dividends in terms of quality and repeatability ..
I hope that they read your comment!! This really makes sense!
@@helenjohnson7583 Thank you! .. 'A' clue about what has changed is in the previous video, where Amanda mentioned "we changed the sourdough starter, but didn't necessarily change the recipes in the same ratio" .. when you do the math, and from experience, a 5% difference in hydration throws everything off .. and because baker's percentages (for the most part) remain the same regardless of total dough weight, it is even more impactful for domestic bakers when they repeatedly dip their hands in water to mix, stretch and fold their dough .. it can be 1-2g each time x 5-6 time = 10-12g / average 400g flour for a single loaf dough = 3% .. which is a lot, given that at 80% hydration the gluten in most bread flours is already fully loaded ..
@@RGS61 I’ve always thought about this dipping your hands in water while doing S&Fs, it doesn’t take much water to throw things off when dealing with small quantities as domestic bakers do.
I don’t know what your thoughts are on this new tank Jon acquired but I believe it’s causing him more grief than he bargained for and is it really necessary to have it? Aside from being able to pour out and weigh it directly, what other benefits is it providing? The occasional stirring? Now he’s leaving a bunch of starter at the bottom that didn’t pour out.
@@dxprt1378 my guess is it's a tool he plans to grow into but does not entirely need at the moment
The best pH tester: stick your finger in the starter and then taste it.
Good luck with your experiments over the weekend.
I am in love with this channel. Learning so much that I can apply if I ever get my own bakery.
The new place looks amazing. Good luck!
This journey has been fascinating! Thank you for these vlogs. It's really fun to watch as you learn to control Super Harriet! Great content.
This guy is amazing. Great channel.
Love the videos by the way!!!
What a great channel I learned a lot from you, Thanks for the information.
Place your tank on load cells to measure its weight. Then you will know exactly how much starter is left in the tank. As sophisticated as that unit is, I'm surprised it doesn't have that feature. It would aid in loading ingredients too
I would absolutely agree that what you have left in the bowl is making a difference. I would also have to be certain not to change too many things at once so I would know what works. Thanks again for sharing all of this with us wanna-be commercial bakers!
Hey love your channel and your new place looks beautiful. Congratulations! Regarding the starter, have you considered measuring the pH of your starter to determine its activity?
Aside from the fact that you can pour out the starter and weigh it directly as it pours out, what is the benefit of that big vat? It seems to me it is causing more headaches than providing benefits.
I guess with my no active starter and your active starter it would be perfect! I love this channel ❤
How I wish I have a chance to visit your bakery 😌
I think Jon is reaching out for guidance and resources, through experience here, as there is more support here, than around him, with his current challenge.
Based on his past icredible work ethic, and support of his wife, and excellent staff, in getting this far, l can only wish for him, and everyone involved, success...... As always. 🇺🇲😉
Wow, sounds like you have as many variables as beekeeping 😂
Best wishes!! 😋🍞
Hi, im from India, and im an aspiring baker. Can you do 1 video of where you share some of your big equipment's, like what are the essentials. love your videos. thankyou
Your new means to make your sourdough is more efficient than your old bucket system. I suggest reducing the amount of Harriet going in. A reduction in temperature will also control volume. As long as you are getting those delicious volatiles, the acetic and lactic acids that deliver flavour and pH.
Have you looked into going by ph levels?
Is it with temperature control?
Interesting gadget..
I have a question..., Is this ABS machine Harriet's new home or do you still have a multitude of buckets of Harriet stored in the fridge?
You could also put it at an angle.. like 10% or so. The starter will get out more easy.
I’ll do a 24 hour reset in the fridge sometimes when my starter gets too powerful.
You could also reduce the innoculation on your final dough and keep that super-active harriet on his way.
Or look at the microscope and search for the differences. Have a nice weekend!!
less water in your ratio, we use a starter as a sponge so its hydration isn't too precise when we measure but anytime its too wet our buckets try to explode
edit after watching the whole thing, yea I bet the extra starter in the bottom,
My bread turns out nice, but is too sour. How can I get a mild, more pleasant tasting bread?
I remember when i told you that i use a liquid form of sour dough starter and how effective it was. I wish you would have listened to me on my advise. You need now to tapper down on the speed it works. It is not hariot in a new devise. It is hariot in a liquid form that accelerate it. Please do the adjustments according to how mu a liquid hariot is, rather than temperature. Temperature is crucial, but is not the total picture of what is happening. Also liquid starter in the oven will make all breads rise more. You have it right on how well developed it is. Developed starter means faster stronger rise. The bacteria groups in the developed starter will react different than the un-developed. I use my liquid starter after one day to allow the groups of bacteria to form. Time is important to making groups. How much liquid you add is important. How much temperature change is less important. You will learn all these things in time, be flexible, be able to re-learn the old ways out, be always loving to Hariot.
Peace, Love Lazaro
I have recently switched to a liquid starter as well (Bread code channel) and you're absolutely right. I also like that it's a more mild scent and flavor. Down side is adjusting recipes for the increase in hydration. Worth it though.
When you refer to a liquid starter, what ratios of starter, flour and water do you use? Harriet is a liquid starter; a starter resembling dough would be considered a stiff starter. I have seen starters that are almost transparent and pour out like water, is that what you are referring to?
Yes the water is basically clear like you mentioned. The water is basically 5 times the weight of the flour. Say 15 grams of Harriet, 30 grams of flour and 150 grams of water. You may want to check out the Bread Code channel.. Hendrick really lays out the science of it but from what I gather the extra water decreases the oxygen, converting acidic acid to lactic acid. I probably got it wrong but you get the point. I kinda thought it was BS but have noticed a much different smell and a more yogurty flavor. Took a few days but defiently noticeable.
A possibility to save time might be to find the average amount that stays in the tank and just leave it in without scraping it.
I obviously don't know how often you clean your tank fully, but if it's not a daily thing leaving the remainder in the tank and just adding to that could be a thing.
@Frederica Bullough I'm not sure how that's any different than just feeding the starter?
Why don't you just subtract the weight of the remainder from the weight of starter you would normally add to the vat. You already know the weight of the water, the weight of the flour and the weight of the starter you put into an empty vat. Now just subtract the total weight of starter you removed from the vat and you have the weight of the remainder. Subtract the weight of the remainder from the weight of the starter you wish to add to the vat and you have the weight of starter you need to add to the vat.
1:4:5 1:5 starter to flour ratio is 20%
It’s not an accurate test because your inoculation is a higher percentage. You’ll be off by several percentage points in your final mix.
Exactly!
Modern day calculas bread making.
Seems like poor extraction design on their part. I mean it's perfectly level and there's nothing forcing it out of course it's not gonna easily come out. Doesn't seem like something that even helps you guys might as well just ferment in a big bucket at room temp same diff. Maybe switch to a truly liquid starter?
Why experiment and not keep what is already working in your recipes sir isn't your bread already super good with your current recipe ?
Initial discharge looks like a camel toe
Why do I take to much ? Your very confusing I know your great at what u do just keep it simple man