Currently, I think I'm leaning towards ideas 3 and 5. I think using the furnace for the extraction (as per the third idea) might be fun, but if people want to see some more general chemistry, the second and fifth ideas might be the way to go... If you like, feel free to leave your own ideas too (preferably in a separate comment so I can respond to people individually).
well I'm an electronic engineering student I feel I'm not that qualified, but it seems that method 3 is simple, and method 5 is the challenging one. a bonus on trying method 5 is that adding another recorded way to extract lithium.
Another idea is to melt all the metals under argon gas (in order to avoid degradation) and separate foreign stuff like plastic, graphite, steel caps, copper wire, gold plating, dirt. The metal can then be purified by slowly heating from top to bottom with selective temperatures and so to say crystallise specific metals. This method is used to purify and separate gold from silver. However it takes a very long time to do and is interesting only for large amounts.
Haha, I actually quite liked Tom's "chuck the semi-charged battery onto a hotplate until it bursts" approach. Not something I'd try myself, but entertaining, and probably would have worked if there weren't a battery explosion risk.
I think #3 is the one that would work better. It not only sounds more solid, but it is the industry tried and tested method. However, #5 seems the most interesting. Also, would be nice if you could isolate the cobalt and nickel too I guess, both have some pretty extensive complex chemistry.
Isolating the cobalt and nickel would be very nice. However, I haven't found any reasonable methods for separating the two. Both have some pretty similar aqueous chemistry. I'll keep looking though, because that's deinitely part of the plan.
Kim, K., Raymond, D., Candeago, R. et al. Selective cobalt and nickel electrodeposition for lithium-ion battery recycling through integrated electrolyte and interface control. Nat Commun 12, 6554 (2021). According to that paper, in a 10M LiCl solution, Cobalt is present as [CoCl4]2-, and nickel as [Ni(H2O)5Cl]+, so you could possibly separate them with an ion exchange resin, as they have different sign charges. (And using some other chloride, because using lithium chloride when one of the things you want to extract is lithium doesn't seem like a bright idea) In the paper they do it electrochemically, using polymer electrodes, so that doesn't seem asequible for the home chemist. I would have expected nickel to also be the tetrachloro anion, but that paper claims otherwise.
@@ScrapScience I just remembered, I have done Nickel/iron separation, with a cation exchange resin, using HCl. The resin retained [Ni(H2O)5Cl]+, and the [FeCl4]2- went through. [CoCl4]2- forms with high chloride concentration too, so I think this should work. But it seems almost too easy.
Wow, I've never even considered separating metal ions like that, that's super cool! I actually have a small quantity of cation exchange resin, so I'll be sure to give it a go (or at least, do a small test) at some point. Thanks for the info!
man i got a couple big storage totes full of these things I've tried a couple chemical processes, all were similar or ibasucally dentical to the ones you are considering and ive managed to get the cobalt but lithium yields were crap. ive been considering an electrochemical approach, but considering my track record with these batteries I haven't been in much of a hurry. i look forward to seeing whatever approach you decide to go with (crossing my fingers its electrolysis 😋). thanks for taking this one on man for real. good luck!
I think #4 is easiest but #5 looks the mot interesting. Maybe use a combination of #4 and #5; #4 to get rid of the bulk material and the #5 to purify the lithium.
That's true I think. However, the electrolyte is strongly bound to the membranes of the batteries, so it's quite difficult to separate and isolate (also, exposing it to air will likely ruin it). It's a little sad, but getting anything useful from the electrolyte is probably too tricky to do.
Do you have any ideas how to make sodium permanganate? I have a huge amount of manganese dioxide lying around my garage I really don't want to make potassium or sodium hydroxide. Is it possible to use sodium carbonate and manganese dioxide without sodium hypochlorite. And should I make some thermite and make manganese metal and use a modified version of your electrolysis method or some other method.
I can't say I've tried many methods of making permanganates, but from what I've seen, there aren't many procedures which will give you a high yield or a pure product. The only advice I can give here is based on the electrolysis method I tried last year, if you want to go for that route. As you've said, if you want to go for the electrolytic method, you'll need to make some manganese metal by a thermite reaction. Then, you can follow the permanganate synthesis I did, where you'll just need to substitute potassium carbonate with saturated sodium carbonate (note that you'll also need to keep the solution very cold, as the sodium process is more prone to decomposition). It's highly unlikely you'll be able to get pure crystals of sodium permanganate here, and the solution you obtain will have considerable contamination with other sodium salts, but the yield won't be terrible.
Extractions&ire did something of the same topic, but I want to see how you are going to do it! Maybe Electrolysis? lol Edit: wrote this comment during the intro, didn't realize you talked about that already. Edit2: Idea 5 I do like the best, As then you also get Cobalt and Nickle as another 'side product' and electrochemistry is always fun.
I'm honestly not very sure of the actual numbers. Figures online seem to disagree, but yes, the lithium content is generally pretty low. You can deduce the absolute minimum amount of lithium based on the capacity of the battery (since lithium is the only charge carrier in the battery, the watt-hours are equivalent to the mass of lithium - with some conversion factor involving the Faraday constant). Overall, I've found that we might only have a little over 10 grams of lithium here, but I still think the extraction should be doable.
In theory, the lithium shouldn't leach out into a strongly basic solution. But yes, in the real world, there might be some loss during the removal of the aluminium. If I go with one of those routes, I suppose I'll have to check the aluminium solution if we end up getting a low yield.
This sounds so interesting I had a box of lithium ion batteries I extracted the cobalt from them and kept the waste solution to evaporate I may be able to extract the lithium from it Thanks for the info
Hmm, you likely had some nickel in there too I'm afraid. Generally, cobalt solutions are red (except in some cases where you involve weird ligands), while the green colour is strongly indicative of nickel in solution.
I like the idea! Getting lithium metal is the ultimate goal here, you've picked it. I didn't want to promise anything at this stage, since getting the metal will depend on how much lithium carbonate we get. Propylene carbonate seems a little tricky to get hold of (I've been looking for some for a while), so I might try molten electrolysis of the chloride before giving that a go, but we'll see how it goes.
@@ScrapScience it can be made from propylene glycol and urea. Or it is a big component of acetone free nail polish remover at least it is here in the states.
Yeah, I've previously looked into making propylene carbonate myself, but it seems tricky to get a good yield. Also, purifying the product seems extremely difficult, and is absolutely essential for alkali metal electrolysis. Getting it from other sources like nail polish remover is also an option, but purification is still a problem. This isn't to say I won't try it, but I don't have very high hopes for it being particularly feasible in a home setting
@@ScrapScience the making it is supposedly easy and the yield are supposedly good with zinc oxide as a catalyst. Vaccum distillation supposedly provides good separation. According to literature discard the first 30%, collect 60% and discard the last 10%. There are other separation techniques.
Currently, I think I'm leaning towards ideas 3 and 5. I think using the furnace for the extraction (as per the third idea) might be fun, but if people want to see some more general chemistry, the second and fifth ideas might be the way to go...
If you like, feel free to leave your own ideas too (preferably in a separate comment so I can respond to people individually).
I like #5 specifically because the electrolysis interests me.
But #3 being tried and proven is also attractive as a git-er-done approach.
well I'm an electronic engineering student I feel I'm not that qualified, but it seems that method 3 is simple, and method 5 is the challenging one.
a bonus on trying method 5 is that adding another recorded way to extract lithium.
Another idea is to melt all the metals under argon gas (in order to avoid degradation) and separate foreign stuff like plastic, graphite, steel caps, copper wire, gold plating, dirt. The metal can then be purified by slowly heating from top to bottom with selective temperatures and so to say crystallise specific metals. This method is used to purify and separate gold from silver. However it takes a very long time to do and is interesting only for large amounts.
درود بر شما .لطفا بیشتر توضیح دهید یا منبعی در مورد ذوب خاکو سنگ معدنی برای رسیدن به طلا معرفی کنید
I like the electrodeposit method.
I think that 5 may work best, although 3 would be the most interesting in my opinion. Either way it will be an interesting video.
Of course electrolysis way is Scrap Science always do.. 😊 That's why im waiting for
Drop the battery straight into the furnace and ask Tom to react to the video lol
Haha, I actually quite liked Tom's "chuck the semi-charged battery onto a hotplate until it bursts" approach. Not something I'd try myself, but entertaining, and probably would have worked if there weren't a battery explosion risk.
I like more #5 because is more characteristic to this channel do a electrolisis to separate metal in solution.
I think #3 is the one that would work better. It not only sounds more solid, but it is the industry tried and tested method.
However, #5 seems the most interesting.
Also, would be nice if you could isolate the cobalt and nickel too I guess, both have some pretty extensive complex chemistry.
Isolating the cobalt and nickel would be very nice. However, I haven't found any reasonable methods for separating the two. Both have some pretty similar aqueous chemistry. I'll keep looking though, because that's deinitely part of the plan.
Kim, K., Raymond, D., Candeago, R. et al. Selective cobalt and nickel electrodeposition for lithium-ion battery recycling through integrated electrolyte and interface control. Nat Commun 12, 6554 (2021).
According to that paper, in a 10M LiCl solution, Cobalt is present as [CoCl4]2-, and nickel as [Ni(H2O)5Cl]+, so you could possibly separate them with an ion exchange resin, as they have different sign charges. (And using some other chloride, because using lithium chloride when one of the things you want to extract is lithium doesn't seem like a bright idea)
In the paper they do it electrochemically, using polymer electrodes, so that doesn't seem asequible for the home chemist.
I would have expected nickel to also be the tetrachloro anion, but that paper claims otherwise.
@@ScrapScience I just remembered, I have done Nickel/iron separation, with a cation exchange resin, using HCl.
The resin retained [Ni(H2O)5Cl]+, and the [FeCl4]2- went through.
[CoCl4]2- forms with high chloride concentration too, so I think this should work. But it seems almost too easy.
Wow, I've never even considered separating metal ions like that, that's super cool!
I actually have a small quantity of cation exchange resin, so I'll be sure to give it a go (or at least, do a small test) at some point.
Thanks for the info!
man i got a couple big storage totes full of these things I've tried a couple chemical processes, all were similar or ibasucally dentical to the ones you are considering and ive managed to get the cobalt but lithium yields were crap. ive been considering an electrochemical approach, but considering my track record with these batteries I haven't been in much of a hurry. i look forward to seeing whatever approach you decide to go with (crossing my fingers its electrolysis 😋). thanks for taking this one on man for real. good luck!
The furnace method would seem to be the 'purest' but it would be helpful to see a chemical method as well.
I think #4 is easiest but #5 looks the mot interesting. Maybe use a combination of #4 and #5; #4 to get rid of the bulk material and the #5 to purify the lithium.
Bat trees
5, keep it thematically sound.
I remember seeing that the electrolyte contains organic lithium salts too?
That's true I think. However, the electrolyte is strongly bound to the membranes of the batteries, so it's quite difficult to separate and isolate (also, exposing it to air will likely ruin it). It's a little sad, but getting anything useful from the electrolyte is probably too tricky to do.
Do you have any ideas how to make sodium permanganate? I have a huge amount of manganese dioxide lying around my garage I really don't want to make potassium or sodium hydroxide. Is it possible to use sodium carbonate and manganese dioxide without sodium hypochlorite. And should I make some thermite and make manganese metal and use a modified version of your electrolysis method or some other method.
Sorry I had a lot of questions
I can't say I've tried many methods of making permanganates, but from what I've seen, there aren't many procedures which will give you a high yield or a pure product.
The only advice I can give here is based on the electrolysis method I tried last year, if you want to go for that route.
As you've said, if you want to go for the electrolytic method, you'll need to make some manganese metal by a thermite reaction. Then, you can follow the permanganate synthesis I did, where you'll just need to substitute potassium carbonate with saturated sodium carbonate (note that you'll also need to keep the solution very cold, as the sodium process is more prone to decomposition). It's highly unlikely you'll be able to get pure crystals of sodium permanganate here, and the solution you obtain will have considerable contamination with other sodium salts, but the yield won't be terrible.
Option 4 sounds easier.
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Hello! Yep, I remember everyone who regularly comments on my videos. Welcome back!
awesome
IMO, you should have gotten cylindrical cells instead.
They are much easier to recycle and extract elements/composites from.
But... Phones don't have cylindrical cells, and he got those from fixing phones.
I think electrolisis is the most clean way to extract Li..
I have tons of batteries waiting for recicle.
I like #4 and #5, maybe a preference for #5 because of the plating. Looking forward to what ever you decide.
Extractions&ire did something of the same topic, but I want to see how you are going to do it! Maybe Electrolysis? lol
Edit: wrote this comment during the intro, didn't realize you talked about that already.
Edit2: Idea 5 I do like the best, As then you also get Cobalt and Nickle as another 'side product' and electrochemistry is always fun.
I like 4, but 3 would be more interesting.
How much lithium is actually in Lion batteries, I heard it wasn't actually very much?
I'm honestly not very sure of the actual numbers. Figures online seem to disagree, but yes, the lithium content is generally pretty low.
You can deduce the absolute minimum amount of lithium based on the capacity of the battery (since lithium is the only charge carrier in the battery, the watt-hours are equivalent to the mass of lithium - with some conversion factor involving the Faraday constant).
Overall, I've found that we might only have a little over 10 grams of lithium here, but I still think the extraction should be doable.
I'm wondering if there would be some loss with the methods that dissolve just the aluminum first.
In theory, the lithium shouldn't leach out into a strongly basic solution. But yes, in the real world, there might be some loss during the removal of the aluminium. If I go with one of those routes, I suppose I'll have to check the aluminium solution if we end up getting a low yield.
This sounds so interesting
I had a box of lithium ion batteries I extracted the cobalt from them and kept the waste solution to evaporate
I may be able to extract the lithium from it
Thanks for the info
No worries!
Were you able to separate the cobalt from the nickel? I'm still trying to figure out a way to do that.
After I precipitated the metal with aluminum I thought it was cobalt only because the solution is still green
Hmm, you likely had some nickel in there too I'm afraid. Generally, cobalt solutions are red (except in some cases where you involve weird ligands), while the green colour is strongly indicative of nickel in solution.
Once you have lithium carbonate covert to the chloride. Then electrolyze that to lithium metal using propylene carbonate.
I like the idea! Getting lithium metal is the ultimate goal here, you've picked it.
I didn't want to promise anything at this stage, since getting the metal will depend on how much lithium carbonate we get.
Propylene carbonate seems a little tricky to get hold of (I've been looking for some for a while), so I might try molten electrolysis of the chloride before giving that a go, but we'll see how it goes.
@@ScrapScience it can be made from propylene glycol and urea. Or it is a big component of acetone free nail polish remover at least it is here in the states.
@@ScrapScience ps. You need an inert gas (argon not nitrogen) to electrolyze lithium.
Yeah, I've previously looked into making propylene carbonate myself, but it seems tricky to get a good yield. Also, purifying the product seems extremely difficult, and is absolutely essential for alkali metal electrolysis. Getting it from other sources like nail polish remover is also an option, but purification is still a problem.
This isn't to say I won't try it, but I don't have very high hopes for it being particularly feasible in a home setting
@@ScrapScience the making it is supposedly easy and the yield are supposedly good with zinc oxide as a catalyst. Vaccum distillation supposedly provides good separation. According to literature discard the first 30%, collect 60% and discard the last 10%. There are other separation techniques.