NEVER AGAIN || Light Arrow Build Gone Wrong
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- NEVER AGAIN || Light Arrow Build Gone Wrong. In this week's video, I go over my experience with my whitetail arrow build and the unfortunate outcome I experienced during my Kentucky Whitetail hunt with my lightweight hunting arrow. With a hard lesson learned, I started questioning mechanical broadheads vs. Fixed blade broadheads and Heavy Arrows vs. light arrows for whitetail hunting.
Based on my experience, I built a heavier FOC Arrow for whitetail hunting and added an Iron Will Wide Broadhead to complete my new whitetail hunting arrow. NO MORE MECHANICAL BROADHEAD. #deerhunting #hunting #archery #archeryequipment
The 5% difference in momentum is moot - the variable with the most significant impact is switching to the fix blade - that force data really speaks for itself. I really think you could've stayed in that 420-440 range as long as you stick with the fixed blade yet compromise a bit on the speed vs foc.
Good luck this season buddy!
Thank you, and good luck to you as well. Most people I spoke to said 450-475, so I figured 470 should do the trick.
Nahh, I was shooting my stock Headhunters( about 413), w/ my Xbow. I killed some, but then I started watching these experts talking about arrow weight. So, I went up to about 535, 2219's, with inserts etc, and I got a pass-thru EVERY dam shot since! It was crazy. I could just feel the power leaving the bow. Fixed+ mechs too. Now, I went down to a 502 grn Zombie Slayer this yr, because my FOC went up from 13 to 19, and get a hair more speed. They feel powerful, I will find out Sat! Hopefully. Hey, good luck everybody, but heavier is the way to go! You mite lose a few FPS, but the MOM goes up exponentially more!
Thank you! Good luck this weekend.
Your arrow had nothing to do with losing that buck. You missed his vitals. Heavier won’t make you miss less.
I never said it did, buddy, and I'm pretty sure I stated that a few times. All I said is I built a heavier arrow to increase my chances of success in the event I miss my mark by a few inches.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors my comment was more toward the guys crapping on expandables and tight pin gaps. Next time you may sail an arrow thru the liver of a deer by missing to the other side and have to pray that a dog can find it because you get no blood on the ground. That was my experience with tooth of the arrow heads which is why I switched to a big cut mechanical. I think both have strengths and weaknesses. The number one most important thing is accuracy. Not foc, heads, weight or momentum. It’s putting a hole thru the lungs of the deer.
@forgerat foc directly contributes to better accuracy and more stable flight which makes the arrow hit more square which delivers more energy to the target soooo foc is pretty high on the list
@forgerat 100% agree, but it doesn’t always work like that in the woods as much as we all hope it will.
And to your point about big cut, that’s a valid point, and I agree. That’s why I went with the wide series. I figured it was the best of both worlds.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors I hope it works out great for you.
Your arrow/broadhead that you are switching from is a fantastic deer set up. Just witnessed a 450gn arrow at 60lbs with a sevr 1.5 get a full pass through on a bull elk. Have more confidence in your rock solid setup and work on fixing the actual problem. You have plenty of penetration on your old setup, now you just have less forgiveness when it comes to trajectory.
Terminal ballistics evades many.
A deer is at most 12-14 inches wide through the ribs, and that's at the back of the ribs where it's already easier to go through. The scapula is a couple millimeters thick, and the 2 hardest things to get through on game are the hip joint and the front shoulder joint where the scapula and leg bone meet.
If you really did hit the scapula and didn't get through it, you've basically told me your arrow couldn't penetrate the equivalent of a grey squirrel. The only thing past the scapula that can stop an arrow is the spine, and spine hit deer don't go anywhere. I can almost guarantee you didn't hit the shoulder blade, as I've gone through it with a 410gr arrow and a sevr 1.5 at 283 fps. Almost identical to your setup. That arrow lodged itself 3/4 of the way into the spine and that deer dropped in it's tracks.
You hit the leg bone itself, and with the density, shape, and lubrication of and around that bone there's no guarantee you get through it with anything. Even rifles can deflect off of that bone and the joint above it. The other thing about that bone is that it's at the very front of the lungs, if you hit there you're already missing or almost missing the vitals. We've been told our entire life that we need to hug the shoulder tight, but a shot into the rear portion of the lungs kills deer just as dead.
Heavier arrows afford less accuracy in hunting scenarios, in regards to animal movement, yardage estimations, wind drift, and fixed heads are less forgiving of the awkward positions we often find ourselves in when shooting.
I'm glad that you've at least made the effort to practice in more realistic hunting lighting, I hope it goes better next time but I doubt this new arrow setup changes the outcome of that shot much.
Your exact experience (minus the SEVR), mine was the deadmeat v2, is what I had last year on my buck. This year, shooting the same arrow, but with QAD exodus... Watch all of the videos online. Best penetrating broadhead of all time, and still has a great cut. (527 grains, 29 inch) (I'm 30 inch draw and shooting 70 pounds).
I remember you mentioning this on the light arrow build video. It was a bummer and a hard lesson learned on my part, and one that I won't forget.
Using a more efficient broadhead with your initial setup would have been fine. But, you mentioned something a couple of times that stood out to me. That in low light situations where you couldn’t see your peep, the only thing you could do was to trust you anchor point. I beg to differ. That’s the worst thing you could do. Since you can’t be sure where you will hit, the best thing to do is NOT take the shot.
Hate that you didn’t recover it, but it’s definitely an interesting datapoint. That said, penetration is about 90% broadhead, with very little having to do with the arrow weight. One thing I’d keep in mind with the IW (and this may be rectified with the wide’s) is blood trail. They typically are a little on the lighter side, so if you’re near swaps or stuff you’ll have trouble tracking through, that could be a challenge. All in all, excellent broadhead and if you ever go back to a lighter arrow, I think you’ll keep the benefits with maximizing penetration with the fixed 2 blade.
That has always been my concern with fixed blades, but a lot of people I have talked to have had great results with blood trials.
The shoulder blade is not even as thick as as a piece of cardboard. Your arrow should have been fine to penetrate as long as you had a sharp broad head. The broad head is the most important thing. Its sharpness is probably close to 90% of how the arrow will penetrate.
I have had both fixed and mechanical stoped by the front shoulder and I have had both go through shot placement I key and I have seen what a Whitetail deer can take from working in my uncles Butcher shop for the past 40 years it is amazing what you find in a big buck and where one of the biggest deer we butchered had 1 50 cal muzzle loader 2 30 cal rifle 1 Broadhead fixed blade and multiple 22 long rifle in it healed up so I think there is no miracle answer
What they can live through is wild.
70lb pse mach 34 shooting a 300 spine easton 4mm long range with 155 grains up front (431gr total weight) frontal shot on elk just inside the left shoulder missing bone and exiting right rear rib cage half the arrow and broadhead were sticking out. This shot was with a 100gr iron will and at 10 yds. bull dropped in 100yds. I do believe shot placement is key regardless.
Thats is impressive, and yes, I agree shot placement is critical, but stuff happens that is out of our control.
Absolutely! We call that hunting :)
Sigh........Honest question, why build a whole new arrow that sacrifices A LOT of your trajectory and forgiveness for a minute gain in momentum rather than fixing the issue of hitting to the right?
Based on your comment, you must have never made a bad shot on a deer, which is fantastic. Good for you. I'm not sure there is something I need to “fix.”
I gave up trajectory, but it was a reasonable trade-off. The setup with the Iron Wills is very forgiving.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors LOL. Thanks for the sarcastic comment. Of course I've made bad shots on deer, no need to get testy with each other. Don't get me wrong the iron wills are an awesome upgrade and will serve you well. I'm just saying maybe fix the shot placement issue before redoing your setup. But thats just my opinion, you do you boo boo, good luck this season.
I will be practicing that low-light shot situation more before the opener here in Michigan and before heading back down to figure out how to avoid doing it again. Hard lesson learned man.
Thanks for the commentsand for watching. Good luck this season.
In all honesty, under "most" bowhunting situations (30 yards and under) the trajectory isn't much different but the force of penetration (momentum) is night and day from a standard "archery shop arrow".
Just a piece of advice. You can't let 1 bad scenario make your mind up. I can preach both sides of the argument. Which would you like to hear? Serious...
I prefer a 430-450 grain arrow. I use RIP TKO. I use Grim Reaper but I use Fatal Steel not the Whitetail variant.
You can take 20 shots at deer and no two will be the same as you know well.
Don't let 1 bad outcome drive you up the wall. If you hunt... IF YOU HUNT this happens. IF YOU ARCHERY HUNT this happens.
Heavy arrow guys act like 600+ grain arrows are like hitting the animal like a 338 Lapua.
Arrows poke Holes. Rifles deliver sledgehammer force. You have to accept this.
Your 420 gr arrows are perfect for whitetails, and with a perfect speed 280 fps, that is the speed I try to achieve, my whitetail and black bear set up is pretty much identical to yours, my elk and moose set up is a bit heavier, Im using a 495gr arrow also going 280, different bow and 5lbs heavier draw. It wouldn't even worry me using my lighter setup on a elk or moose. If your only shooting 20 and under it doesn't hurt to shoot a slower arrow, but if your shooting 26, 33, 37 yards then speed will cost you, in taxidermy
Thank you for sharing your story. My take away is you had to open both eyes because there was not enough light, you could not see your pin because there was not enough light, I’m thinking you probably shouldn’t have taken the shot.
I felt comfortable and steady, and I could see the deer clearly with both eyes open. I just missed my mark by a few inches.
I lost a buck years ago in a similar way, shooting a fixed blade and it really hurt. I think we all second guess our setup when we get a bad result. While a fixed blade, especially one like the iron will will have a much better chance of penetrating a shoulder, if you hit the heavy part of the leg bone I’m not sure any archery setup will go through that. On the other side of it a mechanical is better if you happen to hit back near the guts if it has a larger cut. Most trackers and study’s show mechanicals have a higher recovery rate overall. Much like the light vs heavy arrow the broad head choice is a compromise. I’m tuned for fixed blades but carry mechanicals as well. The only thing I know for sure is there is no setup that’s best for every situation and all we can do is shoot what we feel is best for us. Best of luck this season.
Thanks for the comment. I've read so many mixed reports about fixed vs. Mechanicals, and I agree-it's all a compromise. And yes, a bad experience can shift years of confidence, and you start immediately second-guessing everything. I’ll run this for now as I feel like the Iron Will wide series has the best of both worlds, but time will tell.
Should be a good set up I shoot 500 grains and a single bevel it bust through the bone when I hit foward
I've got frontal pass throughs at 435gr, i don't think weight is the issue. Quality broadheads, perfect flight, and a lot of practice.
Broadhead selection is partly to blame, a mechanical head will not penetrate shoulder bone as deep as a fixed cut on contact head. I know from personal experience. Lost a 3.5 buck using Rage
Your new arrow build will be a killer without a doubt. IMO, you could have just changed to the same weight fixed head. I’ve used arrows from 410 to 425 fixed blade for years. Between 260 to 270 fps and nearly always get a pass thru. I rarely shoot any past 30 and most at 23-25 because of my hunting spots setups. I only pull 60-62 lbs at 28”. Now this is what I do on the arrow speed- single pin slider on the 270 fps arrows and a 3 pins slider on the 260 fps ones. I know my trajectory on the 270 ones and my sight is set at 25. I don’t need to dial my scope unless I know the deer is past 31-32 yards.
Thank you. I'll run this setup for the rest of the year and see how it performs. If needed I’ll see about pumping back down to a 450-grain setup.
I shoot 2 arrows, 464gr and a 551 gr, and every day i shoot both, and every day the 464 penetrates more than the 551, heavy is not always better
I think heavy within reason is better.
You should be fine with the new arrow
I shoot the 454 grain Vap SS 89.43 KE and 0.6002 M I have never had a problem. Shoot what you have confidence in .@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors
I hate to say this but you are not doing anything with adding an extra 50 grains. If you want penetration keep the 418 gn and go with a 2 blade fixed, I have shot through both shoulder blades on an elk with 425gns with a 2 blade single bevel at 60yds and 65lbs. Your wasting time thinking your going to gain anything unless you get up to the 600-650gn arrow.
You can’t say your accountable and then title the video light arrow gone wrong.
As I repeatedly stated, I don't blame the arrow or the broadhead. Shot placement was everything, but the combination of a light arrow and mechanical didn't help.
Ummmm. You took a shot you should have passed. Last light, can’t see, open both eyes…. It wasn’t your arrow it was all you.
Thanks for the input, but I could see the deer very clearly with both eyes open, and I'm sure if you were in the same situation, you would have taken the shot as well.
I never blamed the arrow and said that multiple times throughout the video.
So you do or don’t know where you hit the deer?
😂 I guess not. Maybe you should educate me.
Dude thats the arrow i use,... that TKO RIP is the real deal mine r V1 ... total weight 424gr. With a SIK broadhead 65 lb Hoyt Ventum... love the setup,... most my kills r 20 yds or less...
Hey man. I hate to hear about your loss but I think you’re taking the wrong approach. I know a man who limits out every year(12 deer in our state) with a 375ish setup and Grim Reaper 4 blade expandables. He shoots 29” and 65 lbs. In a shoulder shot with a bow, not scapula, but true shoulder, an arrow stands no chance regardless of weight, broadhead, speed, etc. On a scapula shot, an argument can definitely be made for a heavier setup. I shoot several setups from 400-440 grains in weight and I know I can get pass throughs all day. That said, I believe you would be better served to practice with both eyes open rather than change your setup. A lot of archers(myself included) do this to get a better field of view. Just my opinion. Hope you have a successful season and you put one in the zone on that deer next time!
Thanks, man. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I will be practicing in low light with both eyes open a lot from now on.
A deer shoulder bone would be pretty easy to penetrate. But you have to go above the 650 grain bone breaking threshold. Most people including me are not willing to shoot that heavy of an arrow. Adding that little bit of weight to the arrow will make a negligible difference. I think the best compromise is to shoot a mid weight arrow with a pretty efficient broadhead.
An elk scapula is thinner than an antelope rib. If someone thinks a heavier arrow helps you get through a whitetail scapula then that's a bit telling.
@@malcolmjohnson5941 the 650g mark is only for a 100% guarantee of breaking bone. It can be done with less, it just reduces the chance.
If punching through bone is the goal, a freshly sharpened single bevel without bleeders would probably be a better option for him, especially with the weight he's running.
I have personally broken many humerus bones on entry and/or exit with a 620 grain arrow. It’s not a huge feat to do so. I have also blown out the ridge of the scapula with the same setup. There’s plenty of videos out there of this happening as well.
Im left eye dominant and shoot right hand. If i open both eyes i hit a good 5 to 7 inches right. If i squint my left eye or close it i hit dead on. I lnow exactly what you mean. I practice this religiously during the off season.
I'm convinced that was my issue. I wish I would have tested that before.
If you're shooting a distance let's say 30 yards or less, then there is definitely nothing wrong with a heavy arrow, or an "adult arrow" as RF calls it, and in reality your new weight is really not that heavy, it's still more of a happy medium. Heavier will definitely help with penetration on a bad shot. That being said, I live out west and heavy arrows don't work for me, because shots can at times be well over 50 yards, so trajectory is more important to me. I have shot several mule deer through both scapulae, 40-65 yards, with arrows as light as 345 grains, and the arrow kept on going. I've also shot deer at 20 yards with 450+ grain arrows and did not get a pass through. Any time this has happened I did hit areas that the bone is more dense, around the ball joint area. I feel that a person's arrow build should be based more around the game that they are shooting and the max distance being shot. I honestly feel that broadhead design is more important than arrow weight. You just have to find what is best for you.
I don’t think it’s the broad head but everyone has the privilege to make their own choice. I shoot the Sirius Gemini or RIP TKO 300 spine at 468 grains 16% foc; 295 fps and even on a marginal shot they penetrate very well! Out of all the broad heads I’ve tested the SEVR and the Mega Meat group juet like my field points and are the most accurate. 450-475 grains will tune awesome and for me I have 57.2 grains in the tip with a podium Steel HIT and Collar and 125 grain broadhesd. 3 fletch silent knight or TAC vanes to keep my foc up. It’s not the SEVR!!! With all due respect to Iron Will Bill everyone that sells Broadheads has a test that makes theirs better. Until it fails me I’ll have a SEVR or Mega Meat on the end of my arrow. Good luck this season and that’s whitetail hunting with a bow…. Keep practicing and be determined to get another crack at him!!!
I agree. It wasn't the broadhead at all. More so the combination of the two.
Totally agree…. Get up around 460-480 grains and you’ll be great
At the moment, I plan to stay at 470 for the year. Next year, I'll increase my poundage back to 75, and at that point, I might pump up my arrow weight to 500.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors I am at 72# and 31.5” draw on my LIFT33 and am very confident in my arrow range between 465-500….. seems I get better groups and tuning around 468-480;grains.
Has nothing to do to do with the arrow weight. Get the most out of your modern bow. Don’t sacrifice trajectory for a few percent more momentum. A 350 grain arrrow, even at 60#, will pass through a deer every time unless it gets stuck on the opposite shoulder, still just as lethal, In which case a heavier arrow is unlikely to make any difference. The guys in the heavy arrow camp might as well be shooting bows from the 1980’s
There’s not alot of what you said that you wanted matched what you actually did in your arrow setups. Both old or new. Honestly, you seemed all over the the place with it. For example, you were uber focused on speed with your old arrow setup, but had a wrap and 4 fletches. Did you choose a mechanical head because your bow wasn’t tuned well enough to shoot a 3 blade fixed? Either way, an arrow outside of the vitals isn’t going to kill a deer regardless of its configuration.
For your new arrow setup, you mentioned foc like it was important to you, but still had the 4 fletch and wrap. I bet you would get a better blood trail from a regular 3 blade than you’ll get with those 2 blade ones. But, everyone has to learn stuff for themselves. Good luck this season.
That new arrow, you still wouldn’t have recovered deer. Shot placement as many times as I can say it . Don’t shoot for bone. Every time someone loses a deer, myself included, they want to change their setup.
Now you got me rethinking shooting a 300 spine 🤔
90% of penetration is the broadhead and how sharp it is with any bell curve arrow on the market. FOC % and all those nuances is not the make or break
Hopefully, I won't have any issues then.
Go back to your first arrow and shoot a fixed blade. Best of both worlds that way
Bow hunting is on the single biggest mind F I’ve found. The real goal is to find a set up that drives you the least crazy.
Whitetails don’t really require much more than 425-475 grains to kill, but the distances are more complementary to 500+ grains.
Larger game, like elk would be better suited for 500+ grains, but may require shot distances where 450 grains or less make the most sense.
It’s all about trial and error, pass and fail. When you find the optimal setup for any game, let the rest of us know.
I'm still searching, but when I do, I will let you know.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors I’ll watch for it. Good luck for the rest of the season brother.
@D18Y thank you!
It’s ok to blame the mechanical head, they suck. There are too many variables in bowhunting to introduce a broadhead with moving parts. It’s not a contest of the guy with the fanciest toy wins, we’re taking the lives of animals. They deserve the most robust, well tuned setup possible.
Coming up next, biggest buck I’ve ever seen ducks my arrow………….
I love how supportive the hunting community is.
Obviously, this wasn’t a long-term bow hunter that posted. The best thing to do is to quiet the bow down. I can’t tell you how many deer I killed at 230 FPS that never reacted until the arrow was in the ground on the other side. A faster bow is never the answer no matter what the arrow weight is. It’s more about how quiet it is. We hear noises all day long, but we don’t jump unless they’re out of the ordinary. Dear are the same way.
@CowboyJunkySC 100% agree.
@@CowboyJunkySC Bowhunter TV had a video with Randy Ulmer several years ago where he talks about bows being loud. It was very informative. He has had a very successful career in both target archery and bowhunting. I know many of his deer have shot over 75 yards. Here is a link to the clip if anyone is interested. ruclips.net/video/F6_Mjrq1984/видео.htmlsi=SgnryGSso2fJKfi_
Arrow builds ? How straight can you make your arrows ?
That really hurts to lose an animal like that but changing your setup to a less favorable trajectory Arrow and less forgiving head setup seems like a knee jerk reaction. That said I agree with your choices and run a 475gr rip tko with iron will heads, only difference is I dislike the half outs. I run hit inserts with iron will titanium footers and that thing is damn near indestructible! Blow through hogs multiple times in a day, straight through deer, I am shooting 309 fps though, best of luck with the new setup!
I'll have to check that setup out. Thanks for the recommendation.
460 grain pro comp with an iron will solid yet to be stopped by anything coming out of a 70 lb levitate
Thanks for sharing the experience! I'm hoping for similar results.
I feel you brother good looking head I'm using a Simmons land shark 2 blade 135 1 9/ 16 cut on My Excalibur Crossbow this season good luck this season
Good luck to you as well!
I think you’re gonna be very pleased with the set up. The proof will be in the pudding just do you and don’t worry about naysayers.
Thanks, man, and I don't pay attention to them.
I just like you had a very similar opifany years ago chasing speed. But, I shot a doe tonight with my 481 grain Annihilator 125XL. I blew through the deer and she dropped in 40 yards. I won't ever go back to mechanicals and very light weight.
Congratulations!
Closed left eye (right handed shooter) and then squinted. Focus needs to be on the target with the pin along for the ride. I finally learned this after many years and now that i shoot with both eyes open i feel foolish for ever closing my left. It was aging eyes that led me to shooting with both open and I wish I had done it 30 years ago from the start, never too old to learn. The wisest man has more questions than answers.
This is something I need to get more comfortable with. Thanks for the constructive criticism.
Exactly, no arrow broadhead combo or even xbow goes thru that thick bone on top of shoulder arrow penetrates 2 to 3 inches that's it . deer will always survive if no infection
Man I have been struggling to get my eyes to bring the target into focus. It’s like my pin washes it out or something. Even with it fully dimmed. Need to figure something out
@@Wackmaster69-c4p not true. I shoot a 512 grain arrow out of an 80lb omen 30” draw 315fps. I went passed through both shoulder blades on a big northeast buck with a garbage rage extreme.
@@Chasintail11not talking bout shoulder blades i can punch thru both with my fieldpoint im talking bout the knuckle on top of the scapula nothing goes thru that bone thats why everone that hits high in the shoulder stops the arrow after couple inches. Happens everytime thats the truth bud
Ho Lee Shite People on RUclips make bow hunting so hard. Primitive people did it. Learn how to hunt and the archery part gets really easy and close range.
🫡
Bummer deluxe! I try to get everyone I can to use quality fixed blade heads. People like you that know how to tune a bow and arrow setup for any head should IMO be using fixed. I have never in over 50 years used anything but a fixed of various designs. I get pass thru hits nearly every time on deer and on pigs the head is sticking out the far side most of the time. I only draw 62#’s at 28” with a 416 grain finished arrow. They have 175 grains head and brass insert weight. I’m getting 268-270 fps. I’ve blown thru two mature bull elk with this setup. I have 100% confidence in my arrows.
Thats great to hear. All I'm hoping with this setup is to increase my success rate and decrease missed opportunities like the one I experienced.
Mechanical + Light Arrow = Sadness been there done that. Have been shooting 595-640gr TAW with a single bevel for years with superb results. I blew a deers humerus in half a few days ago. You arent going to do that with a 400gr setup. You state you arent shooting past 35yds-why not add mass and gain so many benefits? Good choice on the iron wills, and fixed blades in general will serve you well.
I went as heavy as I felt comfortable with my current setup. Next year, I will pump back up to 75 lbs, and then I might move up in arrow weight.
Your .550 slug of momentum is the same as an 8.9lb rod at 2fps and a 100gr rod at 1250fps. One of those is a sore foot from a piece of rebar, one of those is a 9mm round shooting through you and likely well through the person behind you. Yet they are the same momentum and vastly different penetration. Don’t focus on momentum, it won’t help.
You can increase weight and hope the on target Ke increase is enough to be the difference in a bad shot penetrating bone and not, but it’s a flawed approach. It’s highly unlikely that 5% more or less Ke is the difference in going through or not.
If you’re really worried about busting through shoulder, get a long slim fixed blade. It will be better at breaking bone. It will be worse at killing when you don’t hit shoulders, but there’s no free lunch.
Mechanicals benefit from aiming a touch back and fixed blades benefit from aiming a touch forward. Neither is ideal when going the other way. If you are always going to error the same direction, stick with the one that benefits from that direction.
More speed helps (somewhat) keep a moving target closer to where it was when you shot. More weight helps (somewhat) deliver more energy to the target. Both have a benefit and a drawback in real hunting. More speed but no energy means no penetration. More energy but a target that’s gone means no penetration.
The biggest issue is always going to be putting a well tuned arrow where you want it to be. If you do that nearly any weight and any broadhead will work. Everything else is an excuse to cut corners from a well tuned arrow hitting where you want it to hit.
Left eye dominant, have you thought about going left hand bow? Shoot with both your eyes open?
Thank you for sharing your experience. I respect the courage it took to open yourself up to all the criticism you’re receiving and will receive. We all have taken shots we wish could be taken over or not taken at all. Bow hunting is continual learning experience we should respect and enjoy. Best of luck in your future hunts.
Thank you! I appreciate this. Good luck to you as well this season.
I’m curious to see how your groups look with those Heat vanes and a fixed blade. My experience is that even 4 Heat vanes resulted in eratic groups at 40 yards with a QAD Exodus on the front. However when I used 4 AAE Max Stealth vanes, the Exodus literally hits in the same quadrant of the white dot on my Morrell High Roller.
Shoot out to 40, and so far, they are doing fantastic, but I will probably do some AAE stealth vanes to test them out.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors man that’s awesome! I really do like the Heat vanes for how quiet they are. When I did a 4 fletch Heat vane configuration with a Grim Reaper, I didn’t have any issues.
@sthompson447 I'll shoot it at further distances soon, but I can only get to 40 yards in my yard.
Ill blame the broadhead need heavy setup
Thats why I pumped up the weight and went with the Iron Will.
480 grains is a good weight but I’m not sure it will penetrate shoulder. I like 550.
My 420 grn arrow with iron will single bevel will blow through a 200 pound hog shoulder with no problems. And hogs are tougher than whitetails
@troypowders4312 thanks for the constructive input. I might need to check out these single bevels.
Ha...guess Ranch Fairy ain't so cra...cra...might wanna catch the Fairys new momentum video with ol Ed...just saying. 🤷♂️
I'll check it out. Thanks for recommending it.
Appreciate your honesty!
Absolutely! I appreciate your support.
I always use fixed blade broad heads Muzzy MX4 one of the best heads ever designed the trocar tip splits bone I shoot 70lbs with a little over 400 some grain arrow setup 324 feet a second and my arrow always blows through deer and sticks about 6 inches into the ground.
My .02.. switching to small fixed will help way more than the added weight. You could use iron will, and go 125, on light arrow build and be well off.. then if you hit one in liver you will want to switch to mechanical broadheads because a deer lived for 4 hours... ive had shoulder hits and liver hits. Theres a give and take no matter what you do... i use both fixed and mechanical depending on hunting location/ situation
Compound or traditional setups both demand a smart and sensible arrow build that offer as much of both speed and momentum in other words a perfect blend that will handle a shoulder hit with no problem and also give you absolute confidence so to me you’re new setup is perfect! Thanks for sharing brother God Bless!
Thank you and thanks for watching.
I'm a PH.D scientist who got into hunting. I HIGHLY recommend you watch the Ashby interviews. Listen, I've seen first hand how multiple things can lead to poor shot placement, and the stats show it happens much more often than archer skill level would imply (i.e. wind, small branches, deer smells and reacts to other deer far away, your equipment got bumped, etc.). If you have a well tuned arrow weighing more than 650 grains, you are far more likely to recover anything you hit, even if hitting heavy bone sockets. Consider this: my mother's boyfriend in high school died because someone dared him to jump off a high bridge when he was drunk, and he did it. He was going so fast when he hit the water, they said it was like hitting concrete. So speed is not always helpful for penetration. The high impulse on a fluid/solid can be such that it robs a lot of the energy during the initial impact. Try hitting silly puddy with a hammer. Throw some bone in the way after that, and you've got a real problem. The Ashby reports showed that even a forty pound recurve, & up to a seventy pound compound, all exhibit this threshold. As a solid state physicist, his findings make sense to me. Even as i'm sure many people have success with lighter arrows, and I imagine that sometimes speed is the reason people have harvested animals that were just not close enough to take a reasonable shot otherwise. Still, if you use AI and research this, it comes up with similar information from pouring through data. Much higher recovery percentages are seen with the really heavy arrow threshold...no more shots for me under 650 grains... Best.
Id debate this because shot placement is more critical than arrow weight and Ashby has said this. A lighter arrow leads to tighter pin gap which leads to a better chance of hitting where you aim. Given drawing on a deer causes an adrenalin rush its easy to misjudge or slip up and a lighter arrow is more likely to be closer to your original aiming point than a 650gr arrow. I hunt over CRP and need to be able to shoot to 40yds if not further. I shot a 200# dressed buck at 35yds last year with a 370gr rip XV with a 100gr qad exodus. Arrow broke a rib on each side and stuck around 15" into the dry ground on the other side. So absolutely no issues with penetration with an arrow almost half of what your suggesting. And my pin gap from 20-60yds was around 5/8 leaving gracious pin forgiveness. Also have to take into account arrow flight time and a lighter arrow hits the target a lot faster leaving a lot less time for a deer to move. Now I wouldn't suggest a 370gr arrow hunting hog, elk, bear, ect but for whitetail I would prefer to run a lighter faster arrow over a 650gr arrow for my needs. I switched to rip tko's for this season adding a little weight out front and my arrow is 450gr and my pin gap opened up quite a bit and I don't like that. My next set of arrows will be sirius orion 300spine 8 gpi arrows leaving me with a factory component arrow w/100gr point at around 400gr and I will probably run 125gr points leaving me at 425gr. Only reason I moved away from the rip XV is because the arrows are not very durable and in the event I hit a shoulder I didn't have confidence in the arrow not shattering and leading to an unethical takedown. Now that my bow is completely setup for 450gr arrows I regret not just sticking with the 370gr rip XV for my needs. I would without doubt take a shot on a whitetail at 60yds but I practice almost daily to feel this confidence. If I hunted in the woods and took 30 and under shots a heavier arrow would make more sense but to me 450gr is more than enough for whitetail. Most of the basic bow hunters in my area use 6.5mm arrows weighing around 400gr and they have been killing deer for decades with these arrows. This really comes down to skill level especially in the heat of a shot on an animal and personal preference. As long as your ethically harvesting animals it doesn't matter.
@@tsi-rocket4144 just shoot a faster bow. Then you can shoot heavier and faster. Problem solved
@@Chasintail11 I'm shooting an elite omnia which is faster than my rx-4 turbo and rx-7. "just shoot a faster bow" doesn't matter when I'm already shooting one of the fastest bows made in the last 2 years.
@@tsi-rocket4144 what speeds you getting?
If you want to break bone and have a 100 percent plan b arrow you need 650 grains…Ashby basically found this out through trial and error, otherwise you may as well go back to the severe and shoot back of lungs. Your probably not going to make it through shoulder with the wide cut iron will every time at that grain weight of arrow(you might 50 percent of the time though). Just my guess from listening and reading up on this stuff. Read Ashby reports or listen to him on ranch ferry, it’s very interesting, even if you walk away wanting to run a light arrow and shoot back of lungs that is fine, it works. Plan B arrows have got to be heavy, speed does not matter for breaking bone, something that seems incorrect but Ashby also proved, it’s all arrow weight and momentum.
going to a fixed blade was a good move, may have been better go to a single bevel head based on your experience. single bevel heads continue to rotate after impact (deflect off bone) vs a double bevel will stop rotating on impact even if you have offset or helical fletchings. I shot a buck through the humerus bone 2 years ago @ 38 yards with a 55# bow and a 425 gr arrow using 125 single bevel heads.(much less speed and KE and momentum than your light arrow) 244 FPS, 56.13 KE and .46 slugs momentum. the arrow didn't penetrate fully, but the head deflected off the bone and severed the bucks windpipe and he was down inside 125 yards. since then I have stepped up to 72# draw and kept a 434 gr arrow, now moving 279 FPS, 74.94 KE and .53 slugs. whatever your choice, I think you are headed in the right direction, best of luck the rest of the season!
Thank you for the input and best of luck to you as well.
You think that's gonna go threw a shoulder then
I can't say for sure, but I believe it's got a better chance.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors pretty much nothing is going threw a shoulder just about everything will go threw a scapula let us know how it goes good luck hunting
@jeradlene1732 I will do. Thanks for the comment. That makes sense.
Thanks for sharing! Light arrow builds have been very popular but I’m starting to hear the same story when uncontrollable matters occur. It’s the same right why torque tuning is done because we can never control the atmosphere outdoors. I shoot a 480 grain arrow with a 75# bow. I too was thinking about going to a 420 -450 grain but will stay with my build after hearing this 👍
I'd recommend it.
I am sorry you lost that buck. What happened to you happens to a lot of bow hunters if they are honest. As the saying goes, you messed around and found out. I think you will fare better by increasing your mass and f.o.c. and a fixed head. I have read some of the comments. The heavier setups are such occasions as you experienced. I would go even heavier with a quality single bevel and even higher front of center. Make sure your broadhead is razor-sharp. Just my thoughts, but you got to do you.
Thank you.
So....do we weigh the arrow before the Broadhead is on as our arrow weight?, or how are all y'all weighing them?
With the broadhead to get the finished/total arrow weight.
You should also take a look at Night Sight Tape to be able to make you adjustments in low light conditions.
I'll look into them, but I typically do not make adjustments to my pins in low light.
I've taken moose, elk, and deer with Iron Will!
Its your setup so do whats best for you. Ive got 17% foc, 550 grains with an ironwill single bevel. Ive split the humorous in half (obviously not on purpose). Single bevels split bone mechanically. You should give them a shot
I think I might!
I sympatize with you. We all have this fear within us but unfortunately it’s part of the game ! Pierre Héroux
Hard lesson learned.
HEaVy aaRROO LiGtHt AAro. I'll just buy more stuff so i don't have to practice. Lol
I am always amazed at how hunters treat one another so disrespectfully and jump to assumptions.
I practice almost daily, often in low-light conditions, and shoot 3D all summer.
I'm guessing you never made a bad shot on an animal or are too embarrassed to admit it.
Good luck this season ✌️🏼
⌨️🪖
Actually, I was wrong to generalize all hunters because there are some great people out there who support one another, but comments like these expose the bad apples.
I shoot same arrow with a Iron Will wide.490 grains total. Works great... your gonna love it!
Thanks, man! I was surprised by how well they flew.
Sorry to hear that man. You are on the right track though now. Iron will all the way. N these comments are amusing 😂
Thanks, man.
Yes, that they are.
Well presented and critical info! Thx…
You're welcome and thanks for watching!
Everyone’s a mechanical person until they aren’t
Thats is 100% true. I'll still run them, but I'm not sure I will for whitetails anymore.
Enjoying the content, can you review the TAC driver 2.25” vs the DCA Super Sabre mini…ease of fletching, characteristics and stabilization of broad heads. Sorry to hear about your animal, but at least it wasnt definitely wounded that you know of, i shoot a 470 grain VAP SS at 29.5” draw and 72#. With an ethics insert and collar which i love the collar, comes to 65gr total up front plus the head…Jus recently switched back to fixed blades just because…fixed or mechanicals both, can either be a benefit or a negative, it all depends when you’re partying with animals
For what it’s worth, I’ve done my own testing with these two vanes in both 3 and 4 vane. I settled on the mini sabres 3 fletch. I felt my groups were consistently better with grim reaper micro hades broad-heads with this setup. Noise was similar with all of them but the three fletch was probably quieter. The Sabres are way easier to fletch but that being said, the tac vanes aren’t as hard as everyone says they are to fletch. Just killed my bull elk with the mini Sabres and micro hades Broadhead.
@@jshobe393 this makes me so happy to hear because im shooting Hades Pro 3 blades for whitetail. So not nearly as far shots…Just ordered the mini sabres and i dont think the Tac driver 2.25” were as good at stabilizing than my pm23, 4 fletch was. And whole reason i switched was i wanted less weight in my setup and of course less weight in the back half especially since i like running lighted nocks. The height is the same on tac 2.25” and mini sabre…but im thinking that shape of the sabre will work nicely. For me with the Tacs, i did everything they instruct you to, and then some with my Bitz and these things were a nightmare to fletch and get to adhere correctly on the shaft of my VAP SS. And ive fletched a decent amount of arrows. I even sanded down my clamp and cut the front half off to make certain i was lined up flush…i have an AAE receiver on my bitz too. The helical clamps on the bitz seem to be a lot more wacky as far as tolerances go so i took someone else tip and sanded it flush where the vane sits and cut the top half
@@Orr_s interesting. I’ve listened to a few podcast with the owner and engineer behind the Sabre design and it’s hard not to get behind them after hearing what he has to say. The minis are great for the smaller fixed blades and mechanicals. I’m running a match grade Easton Axis LR 4mm with podium archer titanium two piece inserts plus my micro hades. On the back end I have a 4mm halo nock and three mini Sabres. It’s a great shooting setup for me. 450gr 15% FOC.
@@jshobe393 we have very similar setups, so im glad to hear. Mines around 465ish and will go up about 3 grains after i fletch these 3 mini Sabres on when they come in. And i ordered his alignment tool way back when, years ago before he launched his own vanes. Good luck this year, and thanks for your service as an officer, its wild out there nowadays
Thank you, and I appreciate the kind words. I can see about testing them out. I'll play with different fletching configurations to see what's more forgiving.
I won’t use a sever…small cuts….and terrible blood trails… Megameats and on my sticks now.
I've always had good blood trails with sevr when I hit the lungs.
650 grains is the bone breaking threshold. Below that it’s 50/50 whether you bust through or not. 650 and above 100%. Foc is good. But it doesn’t matter how you get the mass to 650. Foc only helps once you’re through the bone
People just absolutely refuse to follow the data from the Ashby study. Trajectory should be the last factor or not a factor at all when contemplating building a big game arrow. We have $350 adjustable sights on people's bows but they want their arrow to hit the same spot at 20, 30 and 40 yards.
Common misconception about heavy/light arrows is that lighter arrows have more kinetic energy. This is false. All kinetic energy starts as potential energy in the bow, and cannot exceed 100% of the bow’s energy. However, there’s no such thing as 100% efficiency. Some energy is lost to vibration, heat, etc.
When you start measuring launch speed of different arrow masses, you’ll find that heavy arrows are actually more efficient and therefore have more kinetic energy as well as momentum. This advantage only increases down range.
So when you go with light arrows, you’re trading off momentum, KE, flight stability, arrow integrity, etc. all for the sake of a flat trajectory.
Well said!
I have Sevr 1.5 and a host of other heads. Recently watched a broadhead test from some guys I believe is Bow Only Outdoors where they shot 3 animals with each head. Slick Trick then I think 3-4 other mechanicals. Failures and deer loss didn’t show up until mechanicals were introduced. Just food for thought.
I think it was the combination of the mechanical and the light arrow.
They also happened to be poor shots and the guy in the video said so himself. The hunting public guys have lost animals with their heavy cut on contact setups as well which always comes down to accuracy wins 10/10
This is true
Last year I hunted with a 399 gr arrow, 60lbs/31" probably got around 280 fps. I shot a buck with a sevr 2.0 and almost had a passthrough. I like mechs but they take a lot of energy to open and push through an animal. Plenty of people shoot elk with arrows not much heavier than yours, the only difference is a lot of them shoot fixed heads. I would stick with your light arrow setup and try a cut on contact head
I gave that a lot of thought.
Not enough weight, and too big a head that uses up kinetic energy to open. I use 550 grn arrows and two blade fixed heads. I was in your shoes years ago and switched to my current setup because of several shoulder hits and lost animals. On a side not the bleeders are great for soft tissue hits, but can hinder penetration in heavy bone.
Why wouldn’t you blame the broad head? If it was an exodus it would have blown through his shoulder. Mechanicals are for good shots which we are not always going to make.
I do not know what the outcome would have been if I had tipped the same arrow with a fixed blade, so I'm trying to be accountable. I've used mechanical arrows for a long time and never had an issue.
Ii shot light arrow with fixed blade it didn't penatrate either. Go heavy or stay home
You need 650 min for bone break. You need to read Dr. Ed Ashby report on arrow research. I have always been heavy arrows and it makes huge difference. We hunt alot of hogs and heavy is good.
I've been looking into this a bit more to better understand the Dr. Ed Ashby report, and there is some pretty compelling information.
Light arrows don't penatrate! Always better to go heavy
We tried to warn you that, that's too light of a set up buddy. Smh
Trust me, I wish I would have listened 😒
Tight pin gaps are sexy for TAC but limiting your shot opportunities is the trade off. Sorry to hear that it cost you a big buck.
Thanks, man. Hopefully, I'll catch up with him later.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors hope so! 🤞🤞
Troy the RANCH FAIRE he can help you
Go up to 650 and shoot for the heart with a fixed single bevel and get up to FOC 19 or more
Bet ya Josh Bowmar is chuckling 🤷♂️😂. Maybe the Beast would’ve been the better option 😂🎉
It's hard to say, but I doubt it.
You need to watch videos on single bevel. I would send those back and get single bevel, they go through bone way better like a screw
I've watched many on both the doubles and singles, and the Iron Wills perform very closely when penetrating bone.
So wait, you took a 418g arrow to the field? Sounds like you were trying to zig while everyone else has been zagging just to get some arrow build video clicks. Plus you’re still worried about speed because you only increase 50g and some FOC. Aren’t the modern bows fast enough bro I see you have the new Mach 30…. I mean maybe you have a super short draw length or something. The archery shop guys were right, 475g minimum. Think about it being a moving skeleton covered in hide and hair, then consider what will be making contact first. Fixed blade for me all day backed by 575g of Victory RIP SS!!!
My draw is 27.5 lbs, and I ordered a 70-lb bow. A 470-grain arrow shoots 264 fps. Again, I was building it for speed, not “clicks,” but thanks for the constructive comment.
To claim that less than 418 light just for shock factor is interesting when there are other archery influencers shooting sub 400 at pronghorn and sub 500 at water buffalo. Not saying it's the smartest, it's just not as against the grain as Urbanarcher seems to think. Sounds like you learned from your experience which is more than alot of people do
Thanks, man. There's a lot of keyboard warriors out there.
@@MichiganAmBushOutdoors
Speed is obsolete with modern bows there all fast enough, you were chasing a ghost! 418 is very light and the animal didn’t deserve that. If you’re 15y on the ground perfectly broadside and make the right shot then sure it’ll zip right though! But as you stated that’s not reality, last light or the animal moves or you make a less then ideal shot. Why even go down that road is my point. Don’t get me wrong there’s tons of people shooting light arrows and mechanicals right out of the package never even practiced with and killing deer all day. But they’re clueless or just don’t care. You set out to go that light on purpose chasing a few fps. The reason I go fixed and heavier is to put a few more odds in the archer’s favor when something goes wrong or changes. No keyboard warrior here just call things as I see it. Everywhere you look everyone’s going super heavy with a single bevel and it appeared that you purposely went light to be different and you got burned. You seem cool and I think it’s legit you put your experience out there so hopefully others learn.
@urbanarcher3535 I've heard the same argument made for shooting mechanicals and pulling away from the shoulder. I agree with you though, I shoot a fixed for many reasons. Durability being the biggest, penatration pretty close after. Like you said, lots of respect goes out to the folks putting they're journey out there for others to learn from
Definitely took a couple steps in the right direction. Id run it this season and then try to build a full 12 step arrow over the summer
Define a 12-step arrow, please