There is also something to be said about how Bucky and Sam broke Zemo out of prison to operate outside the law and basically left a trail of blood from the prison to Madripoor yet we never see any consequences for that action, at least not in the same way that Walker's action has been condemned. It's interesting how stories are framed to allow protagonists to get away with certain things.
Yeah, literally in the same episode that we're expected to become skeptical of Walker for bending rules, Bucky is breaking an international assassin out of prison, and Sam just goes along with it while the audience pumps their fists in approval
I don't think we're supposed to hate Walker for breaking the rules. Steve broke away from authority all the time. It's more about the way Walker does it. Walker (at least in early episodes) lacks a lot of empathy and acts more like a supercop. He's always hardwired to find and arrest the badguy. His cruelty usually escalates the situation rather than help it. And I don't think we're supposed to hate him. He seems like deep down, he genuinely wants to help. It's that he's hardwired to react a certain way and he doesn't seem to understand what it really means to help out. Sam and Bucky aren't as cruel as Walker. As you can see, Sam actually tries to reason with Karli and understand her. Sure they kill, but it's more out of a mid-combat self defense mode than anything else. And Sam and Bucky don't kill people who are pleading for their lives.
@@Nomad-1993 “Sam and Bucky aren’t as cruel as Walker” 👉🏼 Sam was having fun killing people in the first action sequence of the show and Bucky was comfortable to make inmates kill each other in order to free Zemo from prison.
To be fair, Im sure if their breaking Zemo out was captured ALL over the media they'd be facing the same consequences as Walker. Where as, if Walker had kilt that man without it being seen all over the world he probably would've been awarded a medal. I honestly thought, the whole point was to show how hypocritical governments can be. Bucky, Sam, and Walker all take genuine actions while the governments REactions are the true dubious actions 🤷
The Dora Milaje are only there to emphasize the point. Torres acts like being an American soldier makes him a German cop. The GRC act like the world police and send Cap from Germany to Lithuania to hunt down Flag Smashers. But when a country more powerful than the US with people stronger than their Captain America does the same thing, it highlights how Torres and Walker are functioning solely on the authority of projected power... which is meaningless against greater projected power -- Karli for Torres and the Dora Milaje for Walker.
@@MrBazBake I love this take. In many forms of media it's just normal for other world powers like the US to go wherever they want but if another country tries that or even challenges their standing, everyone starts losing their mind.
@@senister14 - seemed Black Widow did just fine on her own against Banner. Give the man a taco and remind him how low the sun is getting; they'll be OK.
I don't think Marvel is, "Pulling their punches" as much they just don't fully understand the issues and movements, which they are incorporating (or capitalizing on) in their media. Not that they're *necessarily* wrong to try. We just shouldn't assume that major studios are being run by people with extensive backgrounds in philosophy or activism.
But to make a high budget series with a huge audience on issues of this calibre and NOT research it to make sure you understand what you're talking about is incredibly irresponsible
@@oku12 exactly. You should always interpret a message with an eye on who the message is coming from. If anything, I think the writers demonstrated a keen understanding of the issues. (More than I'd generally expect from people writing what amounts to a really long action movie). But maybe that shows my lack of understanding.
I believe Motif is right. The last time we saw Steve, he was telling the govt that he wasnt asking permission and hed fight them too. Now, we got Sam whiningly appealing to an even worse govt to "do better." Big steps backwards. Dis wants to send a liberal and civil message, not a strong, pro-people, revolutionary message. After all, its a manipulated authoritarian govt that changed the rules of patents and copyrights to allow Dis to become the empire it currently is.
@@danielmanning6312 not everything can be or should be solved with violence and threats. Sam is quite literally trying to be better and only be aggressive when it's the last resort. Steve at that point in time was no longer captain America and he wasn't duty bound to even try, and also he was dealing with an apocalyptic alien invasion not a humanitarian refugee crisis. Sam is wearing the starts and stripes as a black man so he can't just rebel against everything that doesn't fit his view and act as you please. Steve respects all views but never showed any interest in even trying to understand ideas that were not his, and although he didn't have to, it often made him little more than just a very good soldier. Sam, unlike Steve, sees issues as more than an obstacle to be punched through. Also government doesn't always equal oppression and revolutions rarely are pro-people.
one thing they DID pull their punch on however is Karli. Even when Sam mention "these people were kept away with barbed wire" most of the Flag Smashers we see are white instead of brown. They could even do an easter egg by having some be members of the same group from Iron Man 1 that kidnapped Tony Stark, possibly after defecting and fighting for the US and still being kept away like happens to Iraqi and Afghan translators in real life.
“Apparently the target has killed judges and cops, so who knows how many lives we’re gonna save in the long run once we kill this guy. Well, or girl.” “You don’t even know the targets identity, do you? Did you even read the dossier?” “For your information, Lana, I skimmed it.”
I always love that line by Zemo “There has never been another Steve Rogers”. He doesn’t know about Isiah Bradley. Isiah and Steve aren’t the same situation but Isiah is still uncorrupted.
Uncorrupted in ideals, but still affected (horribly) by what was done to him. Those experiments and incarceration left a serious mark on him. He just never went and let any of that turn him towards or influence him into anything fighting for an ideal. He just wants what many want, to live his life in peace.
True but at the same time even if Zemo knew about Isaiah that wouldn’t change his opinion Zemo says in the show that it’s the decision to take the serum that’s the problem because in doing so you’re inherently implying your own superiority but in cases like Bucky and Isaiah where it was forced on them that isn’t the case
@@jonasquinn7977 The other angle to this is Steve Rogers himself - as portrayed, scrawny pre-serum Steve didn't think he was better than everyone else, he just wanted to help in any way he could. The serum may not have been "forced" on Steve, but he was chosen by Dr. Erskin.
@@jonasquinn7977 yeah your def right. That being said there is still a theme of superhuman corruption. Walker loses one friend and goes nuts. Isiah and Bucky lose dozens and are tortured for decades and hold it together. The choice to be superhuman is the caveat but Zemo’s base argument is that superpowers of any origin corrupt people.
The trouble is that we tend to believe that "doing justice" looks cool. The hero is the cool guy, the one who makes the good decisions is aloof. But in reality, doing the right thing often does not look cool at all. We may all believe that we would like to be superheroes, but if he had to live with that kind of responsibility, we would break after a few weeks. Thank you for the video 😊
The Captain's shield too could be a symbol for use and misuse of the law. What's designed to protect is also used, when thrown, as a way to seek out and harm. Damn fine video.
@@torrinowens4376 I not talking about thing the everyone should know is bad. Like Raping and Murder. A lot of people wouldn't do that anyway. People usually commit murder if they can get away with it or if they feel there no repercussions. There is also a risk to reward ratio. In some case it okay to murder if you kill the right people like during Jim Crow lynching black people. In some countries is okay to kill gays or trans people. It is even encouraged. The laws will alway be written by the Ruling Class and they will make law benefit them even without you knowing. I see morality as social construct because while is wrong steal. It okay for Companies you steal from you i.e your labor. You make say ten dollars an hour as a burger flipper or whatever. However the reality you job is worth 30 dollars an hour. I am usually talking about the wrongness that a Restaurant or Grocery store can throwaway food that could be given to the hungry.
I found the end of the show really lacking, the way they transformed Karli into a cartoon character by the end was a really shitty way to deal with her ideals, which were very valid. Also, the thing about giving a statue to a guy that was locked up and tortured for 30 years and he being cool with it is really weird. They tried to deal with a lot of heavy and real subjects but didn't stick the landing at all. The ending had a really "America is flawed but is still the best" tone and it sucked, especially for non american viewers. Also, "you just have to talk to the politicians and they'll change" is a really bad and naive take.
I felt the same way after watching it, the show tries to tackle heavy subjects but always feels lacking. I think this is because suggesting we actually question the institutions that allow corrupt people to gain power would hurt how marketable their product is. Social commentary is good as long as it doesn't really hurt those at the top.
@@InsecureCreator Yup. That's the reason they put "some individuals within the government" in Isaiah's statue. That's dumb as hell. Sarah even said in the show that America doesn't care about her people, so that felt a lot like back peddling. It was such a cowardly move. American shows can't toy around with the idea of american imperialism if they're gonna do shit like this.
The irony for the show, is that it tried to minimize potential damage by approaching controversies in the safest way, yet ended up offending a lot more. (by the way I am not offended by the finale; I just found it a step down from earlier episodes in terms of plot coherence and character development.)
The new Captain America ends the series with a monologue that borderline justifies terrorism. Sam tells the Senators that the flag smashers' grievouses have merits due to their willingness to use violence to defend it (including bombing civilians). Could you say the same about Nazis or ISIS? Disney basically believes that a terrorist can be sympathetic as long it is young, white women fighting for open borders.
@@martinsriber7760 With that logic, we shouldn't call ISIS terrorists. Maybe it's time to listen to them before more people like them use violence to get their point across. That essentially what Sam says about the flag smashers.
@@badluck5647 Uh, have you forgotten the part where the West (especially the British Empire, the USA, and the USSR) has been messing up the Middle East for more than a century ?
Sam on Zemo: I don’t trust him he’s done terrible acts Sam on Karli: Yeah she’s done terrible acts including intentionally kill civilians but it’s the systems fault she’s like this
Zemo: "The Nazis, Ultron, and Avengers are the same..." Sam: "The Avengers are our friends!" Earlier during Civil War... Tony: "We can't run around the world using force wherever we feel like it. We need to answer to somebody!" Steve: "Power is best in the hands of people I trust." It's not a coincidence. Sam and Steve don't question power, they only question their own power and those of people they trust. Sam is just Steve with perspective.
@@MrBazBake The only people Steve didn’t trust as much are people who ‘bullies’ and people who hide crucial things from him. Zemo basically admits he’s a ‘bully’ for bullies and also admits he’s ‘hurt’ bystanders as well. Karli is a ‘bully’ for bullies who ends up ‘hurting’ bystanders as well. The difference is whole show and Karli is acting act like she’s just a person who stands up to bullies which is not true.
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS Of course being a kid means something. We made up all the rules to the "civilized" world we live in, and kids need to learn it, which takes years and years, especially since they can't really participate in it until they're considered adults. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it makes rehabilitation much more likely. Kids have room to learn and grow. Adults are often too set in their ways.
Isn't this basically Zemo's entire thesis? Superheroes in and of themselves are a State of Exception because the entire justification is who is going to literally stop the super billionaire who can make super weapons the government has never seen before... or The Hulk who can just roid out and smash literally everything. There is a literal fucking magic man running around who can do like ten million things that you and I could barely even dream of... Said Wizard (sorcerer... sorry Sam)... has an entire magic police force for magic crimes. Like the entire world is predicated on States of Exception. With Mutants hopefully coming soon like this gets even worse because then we break into this whole concept of a literal secondary society of people who have powers that a normal human can't protect themselves from... what the fuck do you do in regular civil society when there are people who ought as well be called gods running around? I guess what I am saying is what makes Sam better than John or even Steve is there is no exception in his blood... nothing that makes him different than you or I, except the good he wants to do. HE isn't the Exception by sheer force of power.
yeah but Zemo is also a hypocrite (or the mcu is, rather), because being uber rich also does make you a person "who can do like ten million things that you and I could barely even dream of". Super rich are also like super soldiers in the sense of being supreme and supremacist, yet he conveniently neglects it.
@@PetersonSilva In the real world yes, wealth is one of the most prevalent examples of the discrepancies between individuals. However, wealth doesn't alter your physiologically based solely on wealth (health is a matter of individuals actions, though the ease of access might mean that of the 1% of super rich they are in better health its not a presequite or a natural conclusion)... a Super Soldier however lives longer and has a far greater capacity to cause immediate individual harm of someone's person (ie hitting them and killing them). Baked into their body, you lack a recourse to stop or control them. I am not arguing though that your wrong per se, but we do in fact have a greater avenue to control or penalize the super wealthy than say a man who can spin his fingers and open a portal and walk out. Or a lady who can alter reality beyond human perception. With respect to X-Men's allegorical value as a minority... an arbitrary, random system of genetic shuffling, giving way to people with wildly different baked in powers that range from walking through walls to powers that can destroy universes... would lead to societal collapse. The Karen no longer needs to speak to the manager because she with a casual thought overrode your most basic right to choose to comply with your companies' policies. All superheroes of all kinds are utterly dystopic. That's my point, but yes, wealth to a lesser extent is the same in so far as the social power as well as its ability to give you access to places and people you and I could not get to is similar.
I laughed out loud when he said "stop calling them terrorists" They only blew up a building full of people and tried to drive a van of hostages off a cliff
The point is that it isn't really helping. It doesn't. Yes, she shouldn't have done what she did. Of course, she had to be stopped. But demonizing her doesnt solve the problem. And if you dont solve the problem, you are just asking for more Karlis, especially if Nagels research survived somehow.
I think the "they" in that statement was not the flagsmasher, but the refuges of the world in general. The GRC was going to herd everyone, not just one person, so it'd make sense that is not morally right and Cap has a reason to step in and say something.
The show was somewhat entertaining... But yea I couldn't help but roll my eyes when he began a minutes long ted talk with the politicians and NOT give insight on how to solve the problems. #Bebetter
People writing this show want a certain result and don't have any idea how to reach it so they demand other people figure it out and then congratulate themselves on providing them with this fresh idea. The thing is, there is no way to reach that result but reality can't stand in the way of a good ideology, can't it?
@BenjaminTheRogue Their methods were to take all the people that they themselves brought into America to maintain their economy and population, show no gratitude for all the hard work those people put in for 5 years, and then dump them in camps to die.
They could've literally not had him do his cringe speech. Bringing the problems up was good enough. They really ruined it with their centrist optimism.
Falcon and Winter Soldier actually has several serious veins running through it. For someone like me who became an adult as America launched the War on Terror, as well as the fact that I am an American so the legacy of race and slavery cannot be ignored, i found the message both deep and on point. This show has far more meaning than you seem willing to give credit for.
Can we talk about how hilarious it is for Karli or however you spell her name flat out told John Walker she didn’t mean to kill his friend because “he didn’t matter” This show that that wants to talk about modern American racial politics makes a character we are supposed to in some way sympathize with flat out has her say that Lamar’s (a black man) life didn’t matter
I guess you missed the part where Sam asked him how he felt about Bucky, and you can see the conflict on Zemo's face. Because he saw his name in Bucky's book, and knows Bucky was indeed a good man.
Bucky had the supersoldier life forced on him against his will, he was brainwashed and mindcontrolled too. Bucky clearly resents his past as the Winter Soldier as well. This sets him apart from other supersoldiers like Red Skull or Emil Blonsky who sought power for themselves. Zemo says that the desire for superior power over others cannot be separated from supremacist ideals, but Bucky didn't desire that power. I think it makes sense that Zemo could have sympathy for Bucky after getting to know him more.
because centrist isn't inherently bad just many people call themselves "centrists" but in reality they just don't care about "it" until they are effected by "it" or they are calling themselves "centrist" during conversations between actual centrist and "right" because real/true "left" basically does not exist anymore.
@@nieznajomy4398 While a centrists generally tend to manage and balance their ideas from both sides what I've seen is that the more annoying or self-righteous and radical leftists have managed quite well to alienate a number of the more moderate leftists. But these people don't feel very identified with conservatives as well, so they tend to define themselves like centrists.
@@verikan4241 The problem with centrists is that they are fundamentally fine with the system as it is, and are only willing to accept change at the margins. Sam's line "do better" says it all...he doesn't have a game plan to change the system, just wants government to tweak a few policies.
7:30 "the extrajudicial killing of a *combatant*" I think might be a better word choice here. Dude was literally fighting them, not some innocent civilian bystander.
@@thedead456321 Yeah, I'm not defending Walker's killing of him, but 'civilian' doesn't land quite right here. However, FTR, people can still be designated 'combatants' even after they have surrendered, been captured, or otherwise been neutralized. There's a bunch of people in Guantanamo Bay who can attest to this fact.
No matter what the source material says, Sam refusing systematically to get a super soldier serum is dumb purity test nonsense. His hero Steve Rogers was able to make a difference because he took it, his big and pure heart by itself didn't sway anyone but his childhood friend. If the serum only makes him stronger without corrupting his values then refusing to get it is like systematically refusing to drive a car because you built an identity out of biking. It's goddamn stupid.
Heck, the serum might intensify his good values. For now I understand that they're emphasizing "Not a perfect soldier but a good man." However, they'll eventually have to give him the serum. Otherwise he'll have to rely on tech all the time or worse: Bucky. And if he keeps relying on Bucky to fight supers, that's going to uncomfortably parallel the White Savior trope.
The whole point of FaWS seems to be to acknowledge that traditional superhero themes are starting to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a TRULY multicultural America. Past storylines have been more or less allegorically "white saviorism", but there are enough PoC with consumer clout now to express their displeasure with the implications of perpetually being the villian or the victim ... so the genre has to adapt. And one of the greatest hurdles at the center of the MCU is the concept of celebrating "Captain America" and supporting the goals of an organization with such an icon in a leadership role
@BenjaminTheRogue Don't *really* want to fall down this rabbit hole, but are you aware of the concept in rhetorics of "state your opponent's argument honestly before crafting a response"? I wrote what I thought was a fair description of the thesis of the show writers ... I didn't say to what extent I agreed with it (note the "seems to be" in the first sentence). If there is one modification I would make to my initial post, I would add "anachronistic" in front of "Captain America" in the final sentence
“Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion” -Dr Erskine
That’s nonsense as it assumes the meak will always choose to be the bigger man if they gain strength which is something that he who was strong and became stronger is more likely to do than someone with new found strength and feels they got something to prove.
@@GAndreC he was saying that directly to Steve Rogers. Not you. Not every weak (medically) man. Steve Rogers in comparison to every other choice on the squad.
Did they pull their punches? Watching those clips of Karli from the first half reminded me... Episode 1-3: Karli: "The GRC has literally been killing refugees all this time! They just killed an old woman five seconds ago!" Episode 4: Sam: "What do you want?" Karli: "Maybe people should just be nice to each other?" Episode 6: Karli: "Let's kill the GRC because they're mean." Yeaaaaaah.
This show really needed to flesh out Karli's back story and why she hated the GRC so much; it was clear that the show wanted us to see Karli as a sympathetic character and her cause as somewhat justified, even if her methods are extreme, but we were never shown enough of her back story to justify the sympathy we were supposed to feel for her
@@robertwinslade3104 supposedly they cut out a lot out of scenes that would have explained her pov due it being to close a storyline to the covid 19 pandemic. Like in the first episode, they were stealing vaccines from the grc because they weren't being given to those who weren't blipped away. Originally, Mama Donya died to the pandemic, but they changed it to tuberculosis.
@@ninjacritic I've heard that too, and if it's true, I REALLY want to see that cut of the show. The bad handling of the Flagsmashers was really the show's only major flaw, but seeing as they are the main antagonists it's a pretty big problem. The entire show would have been SOOO much better if there were an extra episode showing their backstory; perhaps covering a little bit of Karli's life before the snap, how the snap changed her life in the intervening 5 years, and then how the blip changed things again. The idea that some people were better off as a result of the snap, then kind of got screwed over in the wake of the blip is such an interesting idea, but is also very believable and is exactly the kind of thing which longer form tv shows like this could explore better than movies; it feels like the show was trying to do this but wasted that chance
They needed to play up the relationships withing Karli's group of Supers. They should have had it so that the guy Walker kills in public with the shield was the most level-headed, compassionate member whose presence kept Karli's rage in check. And after he dies, the rest just follow her like sheep as there in no balance left in the group dynamic.
When you take snipits of the show it seems like a smart show. But I feel it suffer from bad pacing and a villain who your supposed to sympathize with it only says good things and does bad things no I'm between
It was confirmed there was an entire subplot that was thrown out, most likely due to the pandemic, to me that's the reason for the weird pacing, which is the shame as the show is very smart with its big concepts like the one described in the video.
@@LadCarmichael I agree because I feel if her struggle was fleshed out better it would turn this from an average series into a great series. The pieces are there they just weren't able to put them together in my opinion
@@ItsMeBarnaby She wasn't going after YOU. She was going after the GRC. Wisecrack literally quotes her in the show saying the GRC is killing refugees. Episode 3 even shows the GRC is hoarding food and medicine and you get to see refugees die because of it. It wasn't imaginary, you just felt called out for some reason I guess.
@@ItsMeBarnaby see the point being they wanted to present a series which tackles complex ideas, but couldn't since it requires looking at shades of grey deeply but Marvel being Marvel and Disney had to make scenes in which there must be someone who is absolutely in the wrong and someone who is absolutely right, they cannot fit their story properly with the the company goals, so you get bullshit ideas were a person suddenly becomes a cold hearted killer in one scene without any explanation because they have to be evil and in the next without any explanation they are the most vulnerable. They just had an end idea of the show they lacked execution
the show tried to tackle some big themes and that is awesome, I commend them for trying. but good lord they messed up the execution, it was just so....bad :/
They tried to do too much. Each theme was important and needed to be treated with care and nuance, but almost every one fell through the cracks because the writers took on too much. They needed to pick one or two and explore those in depth , not addressing 20 at surface level. I thought the show was terrible; I also thought that it had the most potential.
If I had a nickel for every time Erin Kellyman played the/an antagonist in a spin-off series who was actually morally in the right (or at least had some very good points), I'd have two nickels...which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice. P.S.: The other time was Enfys Nest in Solo
Karli if written a little better could have been such a redeemable character and a martyr to the cause she was fighting for. Great series that was almost perfect.
Disney basically believes that a terrorist can be sympathetic as long it is pretty young, white women fighting for open borders. I never got how her terrorist attacks against innocent civilians was so easily chalked up to her being down the wrong path. If Karli was a bald, white man or middle easterner, then the flag smashers would have been treated like Hydra or ISIS.
I loved the show and this video was great but I think it’s important to note that this whole concept only works if we hold Steve Rogers as a hero. When Bucky said Steve was never corrupted by the serum, and Zemo agrees, that is totally out of character - Zemo blamed Steve and the Avengers for the destruction of his home and the death of his family, he believes the super soldier serum corrupts everybody. Of course, Marvel don’t wanna say Steve was a bad guy, but because they don’t their commentary is weakened a bit.
I think the point Zemo was trying to make was that Steve was one-of-a-kind. He is NOT the norm. A man like him only comes around once in a generation, or several. And just because the super soldier serum didn't corrupt him, we shouldn't assume everyone will be as honorable and ethical as Steve. What happened with John Walker really proved that point. Because before then, Walker was a dutiful soldier. Without the serum, he checked all the boxes we would want. But even he can't measure up to Steve. And as soon as he took that serum, it showed. I think that's also why Zemo's first instinct was to destroy the doses of the serum. Steve is a good man, but what he accomplished as Captain America only gives others an excuse to try and recreate him. That's not just naive. That's dangerous. At least, that's how I interpret it.
I just found it strange that it seems like we are intended to see John Walker as despicable for his actions, but good ol' Steve Rogers was also all aboard the "we don't want rules/regulations controlling what we can and can't do in foreign countries all across the world" train. If Walker is bad, why didn't we get a scene for Bucky and Sam to stand in front of a judge to answer for breaking mass murderer Zemo out of prison?
Wisecrack, I would love to see a deconstruction on Atom Eve’s (Invincible) take on superpowers. Is she right? Would having powers be best served not being a superhero but instead helping massive amounts of people, not in mortal danger, but in trouble in other ways. Germinating entire fields of crops, saving vast amounts of forests from impending fires, etc.
So the franchise that offers abject impunity to the past and current actions of anyone who is a The Good Guy(TM) with a handwavey 'sadness' at best and at worst having a victim of a character's acts of genocide apologise to them for having the audacity to resist tries to do a Justice and Responsibility show, which rapidly becomes completely incoherent and contradictory. What a surprise.
I liked “The Boys” way more than this show. There’s something . . . off about how some the characters interact with each other. But it makes sense, since Disney owns Marvel.
Definitely agree, The Boys is the superior show. The Boys tackles different issues most times though; things like celebrity worship, corruption, political hypocrisy, greed, class, and the problem of power. Not that Falcon and Winter soldier doesn't engage in these topics somewhat. That said, you're right people feel off in this show. My guess is that it had to do with Disney, but also the Pentagon rewrites. I just wish it explored its themes better, stuck the landing, and had satisfying conclusions.
Sam isn't a politician, he can't possibly know everything on how to specifically solve the problem, that's up to the ministers and the senators to do it. Sam did make a very valid point, _"Who's in the room with you when you're making these decisions?"_
He means, DO YOUR FUCKING JOB. Its not Sams place to make policy. He even tells them, in case you werent listening, that they can make a phone call and shit gets done. Its Sams job to be Cap, not write govt policy. THATS WHAT POLITICIANS GET PAID TO DO. AND THEY HAVE BEEN SUCKING AT IT NOW FOR DECADES. HES RIGHT. PERIOD.
@@mkocel No one want sam, only writer of this show want him. And Govt. choose Captain America. Captain America is a title given by Govt. to Steve Roger. Falcon: You can do better. Get your answer.
@@mkocel Modern day superhero gives lecture to others without any proper solution. Govt. is not a God. You can do better and everything will be solved. And also no one care about filthy smashers.
@@rupandutta5210 with that stance does that mean that Steve Rogers was not Captain America during The Winter Soldier movie? What about when during civil war he refused to sign the accords? I'm not even a fanboy. But from what ive heard he is the embodiment of what america STRIVES to be instead of just falling in line under the government's thumb
If anything this show goes easy on the status quo and that is Marvel signature writting all along. I liked the show but that Falcon speech towards the end is meaningless to people in power.
If you think about it, it’s the same logic as Thanos. Instead of increasing resources for the people, they kick people out of their homes. Same with Thanos. He could have doubled resources, but he decided to half the universe’s population.
You have an interesting take, while the show is toying with this ideas, honestly it doesn't do it in a very good/interesting way but rather simplistic and childish.
This video should have been 4 times as long, honestly - or at the least, a two-parter. There is SO MUCH in this show that directly relates to the topic at hand that wasn't even brought up: the Dora Milaje's "jurisdiction"; the obvious comeback to Zemo's "there has never been another Steve Rogers, has there?" line with Isiah Bradley; the changed script that originally had the refugees also under duress from a pandemic brought on by the forced relocation, etc. Please consider doing an addendum and/or remake for this, as I feel you have sold yourselves short immensely.
Very nice analysis. Either I wasn't smart enough to notice these themes, or the show did a poor job at showcasing them. But, you guys really put it together well.
@Impersonal Brahman "here, let me take several minutes to ramble on about how you should be doing better without actually offering any ideas or solutions" Oh, and let's make sure to keep pretending Karli is supposed to be a sympathetic character after _trying to burn hostages alive._
I would argue their execution was nearly perfect if the themes went under most people’s radar. If they’d showcased these themes more obviously we would all be calling the show out for being too “heavy handed” or “overly political.” They expect people to rewatch and reinterpret these things to exhaustion and then post videos about it on RUclips... which means their first priority can always be to make something simple, straightforward and entertaining, in and of itself. Which is certainly NOT to say that they always succeed in this respect.
I feel like they purposefully botched Karli because they couldn't end up condemning the institutions she was fighting against. In the end, Marvel still needs to uphold Captain America, and the American institutions, as ultimately good. They are never going to make another choice. Any time they appear corrupt or evil, it's because of outside influence or its going to end up with some centrist shit take that upholds the system as ultimately good. Which is why Karli ends up looking like an idiot with an inconsistent ideology, despite starting the season as being perfectly justified in her "villainy"
I think in the sentence "we can do better" is the truth and even though some people find the speech woke or preachy. it reflects the truth that was for Steve as he wrote to Tony in civil war. "I believe in people." This was then explored deeper with Sam. He saved the boat not with the help of the bank or the government but with the community = the people. Now we come to the speech: Sam doesn't say "You can do better." he also doesn't have a clear solution for the problem cause there aren't any clear solutions but again brings up the community by "We can do better." and closes with this the statement of Steve. Changes can only be made that when the community itself looks at a problem from all sides and all parties and no longer from just a position of power. Isaiah story gets corrected not as a sign that everything is good cause doing better is not a final point but an outlook of future progress. This also reflects that Sam as Captain America is not as Steve like a symbol to strive for but more a reminder to do better in a way a progression from Steves time where the whole world seemed easier Nazis are bad, America is good but the world is not so simple and therefore there are no easy answers. So Sam with "We can do better" and with the talk to his sister "What is all the fighting and pain worth if I stop fighting - doing better." is more a reminder we never should stop trying to improve as a community to strive to grow also as community only this way we can grow and heal.
This. Finally a take that closely resembles mine. Had to trawl through the " all talk no solution" crowd (which confuses me, like why is everyone asking a superhero to make policy solution?) to get to yours, but I'm really glad to see that someone also notices the parallels between the boat and we, the community. I thought I was the only one who link those two.
@@lyndiss.2017 Yeah, not many got this allegory. Sadly most seem to think the speech of Sam is preachy or "all talk no solution" when for such a problem there is no clear solution. Also Steve could not have found much more that could have been done in this case. As a symbol the only thing one often can do is constantly remind ourself to do better (to be more understanding and forgiving and try exactl)
Marvel is definitely pulling their punches. I think the show was on to something pretty nuanced but in the final episode back tracked a little. I think the problem is there's a fundamental copaganda and militarism within marvel superheroes. I ask myself, what if Karli didn't kill anyone? That's the justification for dying at the end right? The writers purposely gave someone who had ideas that challenge our society a flaw in morality. I also ask in the final episode who did John Walker become a hero? And why is there so many police lights flashing everywhere? We are meant to feel like the righteousness of the red white and blue in the climatic scene. The fact that it's owned by Disney that get funding from the military doesn't help either. Thank you for this breakdown. I loved it.
From what I heard Corona Virus made them had to rewrite the show. Wanda vistion had the same problem and even had a episode cut so I imagine it the same for Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
My working theory is that it has to do with its length. It's much shorter than an average American season. Its more closer to a 12-episode season of anime. I don't know if it is a bad thing or if we're just not use to story telling in that length.
Marvel or, more specifically, the show's writers did pull their punches because they have to. They work for Marvel. And Marvel equals Disney - a multinational corporation. To ask them to go further means to go further left. To go further left is to not only openly question U. S. jingoism but question capitalism itself. I don't know if we'll ever see that from a Disney product. I'm honestly surprised they went as far as they did.
So, it would take a pirate or public TV broadcast by a non-profit agency, Antifa , Amnesty International or anarcho-libertarian activists or guerillas, based on an underground comic book , to get this story straight? Got'cha!
This show sux in it's depiction of death. I mean in the first scene dozzens of ppl die in combat. But when one dude gets punched to death (out of nowhere btw) and then that's tragic. Not to mention we saw bucky kick a dude trough a wall just seconds befor and that was fine appereantly
The writers aren't the issue. You have to remember that Disney is pro establishment. Hence, Killmonger had to die and T'Challa became a CIA collaborator.
@@reanetsemoleleki8219 ....A man trying to start a global race war to kill millions of people that ends up dying is about as 'pro establishment' as the shit I am taking. Are you high on crack?
I think why Sam's speech worked in the end was because everyone was watching and the whole scene was broadcast on the news. Kind of like how Walker got discharged only because the whole world could clearly watch for themselves how he killed that guy. Or how Spider Man became a fugitive because Mysterio manipulated his footage. Not that it makes what they did or say more right or wrong. It's just that people are more likely to take action (or be outraged) when incidents are highly visible. I feel like Marvel is kinda being meta here, since movies are all about what gets to appear on camera.
@@warrenharshaw7677 They delayed the process and it's implied that they are looking at the refugees' angle too in their policies moving forward. Seriously, why is everyone asking a superhero to make policies and give policy solutions? It's not like Sam wanted to run for office or show inclination for that prior to this. A peptalk on national broadcast is what a superhero representing the States should do. That, and beating bad guys and looking out for the little guys. Policy making is not part of the job, man. If you have the chops to cook up wonderful policies as a civilian, cool. Sam doesn't, though, so he gives a voice from a moral perspective and stirs their conscience.
@@lyndiss.2017 If he didn't understand the complications of what was going on, which he stated, then why talk about it at all. There can be no morals without understanding. I don't want Sam to create policies, I want him offering solutions on how best to fix, work with the GRC to solve it. Heroes in the comics and in the movies have done just that.
The amount of quality content you guys release every week and month is crazy! Definitely one of the more thoughtful and intelligent channels around. I wish I could subscribe twice!
What about Sharon Carter? She disobeyed the law (in Civil War) evaded (left the country) to avoid punishment and went to Madripoor, which is pretty much a land without law.
Since people were watching Sam pontificate over the TV, well guess what. That's not how broadcast TV works. Law enforcement would have cordoned off the area from civilians (for their own safety) and the press usually waits up near a press podium or try to capture imagery from a distance. Sam's conversations with the GRC officials would have never been caught on camera. Or at least there would have been no audio since it's not like the press would have mic'ed up the place.
I look forward to seeing the direction Sam takes Captain America I felt like Sharon's scene at the end should have been a post credit scene to keep from stealing from Cap's thunder. Also, who lets someone back into the CIA without doing another background check?
I suspect Sharon along with higher ranking officials who brought her in are all skrulls and this will come out in the secret invasion series when it comes out. I think it’s likely that every series between now and then will have a character who turns out to be a skrull. I hope so at least since it will be a lot of fun with the fan theories trying to see who you can trust! (From the old tag line for the comic series it’s based on)
@@trowa9960 Interesting take, I hadn't thought of that. I noticed that Nick Fury seemed to be in charge of a Skrull operation at the end of one of the movies... how would even he be sure of what's really going on, I wonder.
I see a lot of these same themes in The Grand Budapest Hotel, a film that concerns itself obliquely with the cyclical appearance of fascism. It's no accident that the first character to die is the lawyer.
Def pulled punches. Sam "Centrist™" Wilson was annoying but I mostly like his character. The flagsmashers needed to be flesh out a bit more, I don't really buy that Karli wouldn't have a better counter than "WHAT NO *THEYRE* THE FASCISTS!!" also zemo thooo
Hes the right choice to replace Steve, but the last episode was shit, like you said. I hyper cringed at the "look its the black Falcon" then "no son, its Captain America". It even had the 1980's "here comes my hero" close up. Also his new uniform just has too much going on. I was hoping they would give him the serum and he would ditch the wings.
@@Aaron-kj8dv in all fairness, thats literally just the suit from the comics. but yea the last episode had a few cringe moments but all in all i thought it was a really solid show
"Our job is to demand solutions not to provide solutions." - Greta Thunberg It's so good to know modern day screenwriters think brainwashed kid logic should be the message of their show.
@@RichardServello that's not humble if you force them to do something (stopping what they were voting for) without knowing what is better and what is the solution. It's arrogant. If you don't know how to operate on a heart, you don't go to the medics and say: stop the procedure you're doing and do something else, just better than this time. Maybe what they are doing is the best that can be done at that time, maybe it's worse in the short term but better in the long term, maybe it's a choice of the majority and you're forcing your only view onto the democratic system etc.
@@poslednisoud Maybe. And maybe it's the job of elected officials to find solutions and the responsibility of the public to hold them accountable for those decisions, up to and including sending them back to the drawing board when they dont get it right
@@MrRafalel That's a bit if a false equivalence. They had time and opportunity to find a better solution to the one they had come with. It's not Sam's place to do the elected officials job for them. It is his place to let them know what the standard is, what's expected of them, and encourage them to live up to it.
Hi Wisecrack, great video as per usual. I’ve got a video idea for you: the evil Superman trope throughout the 2010s. You’ve got the original Injustice game kicking it off in 2011, and then you’ve got Homelander from The Boys, Omni-Man from Invincible, even John Walker from F&TWS to some extent. And maybe there’s another example that could be derived from Jupiter’s Legacy on Netflix, don’t know, haven’t watched it yet. Perhaps there’s something to be said about how those in these respective stories are overeager to put their complete faith in these seemingly altruistic, selfless characters that are revealed to be anything but, by the finale.
@@Mr_Case_Time no I mean exactly what I said. Or answer this question, if the US army blows up a wedding to kill a person that could possibly be attending ( but wasn't) how is that not a terrorist action? Or the cia teaching drug dealing how to fight and giving them weapons to destabilize south america countries not a terrorist action? The use of force/death of innocents has long been a well used tool of every government in history. The only difference between a hero revolutionary and a terrorist mostly comes down to how's side are they on in the history books.
@@dexdrako you’re molding actions to fit the definition of terrorism, not changing the definition of it. So let’s say that those actions fall under the established definition of terrorism; the Flagsmashers would still be considered terrorists. So you’re not exactly arguing with me. What are you doing?
Civilian? Nico and his terrorist cell bombed an entire building full of people, and he in particular was fine with it, and he and his terrorist cell are in a straight combat situation where they personally targeted John because he carried a symbol on his uniform , and they just finished killing a fellow soldier, that’s no civilian mate, that a enemy terrorist combatant, and no he isn’t unarmed, he’s a super soldier, and no he did NOT surrender, nor did he even give up the rest of the terrorists cell when asked multiple times, which I would also take as a sign of surrendering
I think it's pretty clear that John Walker broke the law. Nico posed no immediate threat, and no matter the law he had broken, the punishment isn't summary execution.
I put it to my mom that it's about everyone crossing lines that they wouldn't have before (for sharon that means the last time we saw her), everyone except sam; for the most part.
@@j0an-07-arc6 l know they dont do music but was hopping they would do what they did with the video the philosohy of kanye west and side note wow the dedication is inspiring half a year is long and lve been at this for 1 or 2 months and lm already tired
One thing to note: one of Agamben's points is that the 'state of exception' was the originatory relationship between the sovereign and the people they rule, it was always how power worked and isn't a new thing. This contrasts to Foucault who saw the 'state of exception' as beginning in the French Revolution. Additionally, the state of exception subjected upon people outside the law (refugees, stateless people and Agamben's ever favorite example of the Homo Sacer) is a mirror of the Sovereign, who also exists outside the law by virtue of being above it and deciding upon its application.
I knew someone was going to deep dive this miniseries! It was so packed full of different political and/or philosophical themes, I was locked in with the dialogue that contained the lines about means to ends myself. Feel like watching it through beginning to end at least one more time. There is much discussion to be had over this show, really well written, I hope all the people involved are able to keep the momentum going through to the next season as Sam faces whatever challenges he's going to have to face in the fight to actually do better. So many systemic hurdles that won't be easy and he's not taking any soldier serum which could be compared to concepts of the ubermensch.
speaking of TFATWS, its interesting to see how Machiavellian everyone truly is, and I think this was done, as the book Zemo was reading was Machievelli, and several characters do what they do because "the ends justify the means"
@@c0nfracto awwww shit I just watched the newest episode. It was so good. Now it makes sense. But now who's left to defend earth? Omni man didn't even sweat when he was whooping invincible. When he comes back nobody can even stop him.
I know that John Walker killed Nico but you must admit that Karli Moganthau was terrorist and her small group of super soldiers were also terrrorists. In my opinion they only stripped John Walker of his title because he killed him in public. Also in the last episode he tries save the civillians who were taken hostage by the Flag smashers instead of trying to kill Karli (she killed his friend Lemar).
My new film/tv routine: wait for the Wisecrack intro for the show to make inferences about the philosophical value of the show. if it seems interesting, stop video at "spoilers ahead" then resume after binging the series.
Well for a few generations. Then the population back to where it was. But now everyone is use to having more resources. The whole plan didn't make much sense. Neebs gaming did a cartoon on this.
Sharon Carter makes a seeming reference to Diogenes the Cynic in the final episode to Falcon by saying "You're standing in my light." Something Diogenes said to Alexander The Great when they first met. It stands out to me but I can't seem to make a clear connection of it towards any other ends or bigger picture. Any other references to Greek Philosophers in the show? Would appreciate any convo on the matter.
FYI: The anecdote you're referring to states that Diogenes said that to Alexander the Great (the veracity of that story is suspect among historians). Julius Caesar lived a couple centuries after the anecdote is said to have taken place.
@@TheOriginalZimmy Hey! Thank you so much for the correction! I'd like to add, although the story is suspect, existence of the story itself is enough for it to be referenced by.
(More realistic scene) Falcon America: Do your job better! Politician: What would you know about my job? What makes you think im not trying? Do you know this system in and out? Do you work with obstinate fools who block every chance at change? Do you experience the slow descent into bitterness realizing that you can't do anything for change when both groups won't cooperate even when it benefits both of them!? Have you any idea how hard it is to get anyone even on your side to cooperate with you, or if you don't tow the line how fast you'll kicked out or sold down the river!? Why don't you become a politician and see how hard this job is and then come at me with your do better attitude. Falcon America: Uh... (also reality is cruel and no not everyone has equal power. It sucks but hey what else is new)
"you can feed a million people with a phone call" " Try going through dozens of people and the court, all this taking years to go through and potential to be denied somewhere down the line"
John wasn't a psycho. He had anger issues, yes. A very poor understanding of why captain America was so revered, yes. Had ptsd, yes but was he a psycho definitely not. His anger and frustration was because he found a calling that he really wanted to do well in. He received this title after serving his time in our military. He was highly decorated for dealing with a skirmishes that screwed with him mentally. He wanted to be cap because cap was idolized for the things he did right. He was popular as cap because he was sold as a patriot. He is a patriot of america. In other countries that doesn't buy you much leeway. This made him angry. Even then he expected things that were never promised to him. World wide respect and an avenger. He was neither.
If half of the entire universe was randomly just un-existed then it would be statistically certain that at least one planet would be completely untouched.
"Any man who must say, I am the king, is no true king." - Tywin Lannister John constantly telling everyone around that he is Captain America really showed how much he really wasn't.
@BenjaminTheRogue he does it when no one is really asking him. It was really cringy when he did it in front of the Wakandans. He's wearing the uniform. Don't say anything if people didn't ask.
Great commentary and some after thought on what was, at best, a half-baked American cookie. Although I can understand and empathise with Sam's struggle with taking the mantle of Cap, but I don't understand how Sam is currently different than his other good mate/Avenger - WarMachine/ Rhodes? Both can fly, both served/serving in the armed forces, both are active Avengers and both are African-American. On the power levels, both are similar if not equal, as both their suits are flight enabled, equipped with destructive toys. Just because one is now called Cap, but in purely their roles as high metal suit flying Avengers, doesn't it make one of them redundant? Beyond the race angle, I'm concerned how Sam would make an *impact* as new Cap. He almost got his a$$ whooped along with a catchy barb _'Clothes don't make you a monk'_ from Batroc(ouch), even concedes in his final speech that his only power is his *conviction*! That makes him a good man, as Erskine (everyone has forgotten about him, not even a reference) put it but his nobility needs a serum boost. For the next cosmic level threat, which would include the likes of Eternals in the MCU, mere conviction won't be enough. It's hard not to draw comparisons with Steve Rogers, who had phenomenal conviction in his self righteousness with a power level to boot. But in the words of Zemo, _"There hasn't been another Steve Rogers"._
There is also something to be said about how Bucky and Sam broke Zemo out of prison to operate outside the law and basically left a trail of blood from the prison to Madripoor yet we never see any consequences for that action, at least not in the same way that Walker's action has been condemned. It's interesting how stories are framed to allow protagonists to get away with certain things.
You shouldn’t say that. You should keep hating on Walker because that’s what the studios and the majority of the fans want you to do.
Yeah, literally in the same episode that we're expected to become skeptical of Walker for bending rules, Bucky is breaking an international assassin out of prison, and Sam just goes along with it while the audience pumps their fists in approval
I don't think we're supposed to hate Walker for breaking the rules. Steve broke away from authority all the time. It's more about the way Walker does it. Walker (at least in early episodes) lacks a lot of empathy and acts more like a supercop. He's always hardwired to find and arrest the badguy. His cruelty usually escalates the situation rather than help it. And I don't think we're supposed to hate him. He seems like deep down, he genuinely wants to help. It's that he's hardwired to react a certain way and he doesn't seem to understand what it really means to help out. Sam and Bucky aren't as cruel as Walker. As you can see, Sam actually tries to reason with Karli and understand her. Sure they kill, but it's more out of a mid-combat self defense mode than anything else. And Sam and Bucky don't kill people who are pleading for their lives.
@@Nomad-1993 “Sam and Bucky aren’t as cruel as Walker”
👉🏼 Sam was having fun killing people in the first action sequence of the show and Bucky was comfortable to make inmates kill each other in order to free Zemo from prison.
To be fair, Im sure if their breaking Zemo out was captured ALL over the media they'd be facing the same consequences as Walker. Where as, if Walker had kilt that man without it being seen all over the world he probably would've been awarded a medal.
I honestly thought, the whole point was to show how hypocritical governments can be. Bucky, Sam, and Walker all take genuine actions while the governments REactions are the true dubious actions 🤷
Surprised the line about "The Dora Milajhe have jurisdiction wherever they please" isn't mentioned.
Just being pedantic, but the actual quote is "The Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Milaje find themselves to be."
Because they suck and need to be taken down a peg. Try that with the hulk and get ripped in two.
The Dora Milaje are only there to emphasize the point. Torres acts like being an American soldier makes him a German cop. The GRC act like the world police and send Cap from Germany to Lithuania to hunt down Flag Smashers.
But when a country more powerful than the US with people stronger than their Captain America does the same thing, it highlights how Torres and Walker are functioning solely on the authority of projected power... which is meaningless against greater projected power -- Karli for Torres and the Dora Milaje for Walker.
@@MrBazBake I love this take. In many forms of media it's just normal for other world powers like the US to go wherever they want but if another country tries that or even challenges their standing, everyone starts losing their mind.
@@senister14 - seemed Black Widow did just fine on her own against Banner.
Give the man a taco and remind him how low the sun is getting; they'll be OK.
I don't think Marvel is, "Pulling their punches" as much they just don't fully understand the issues and movements, which they are incorporating (or capitalizing on) in their media. Not that they're *necessarily* wrong to try. We just shouldn't assume that major studios are being run by people with extensive backgrounds in philosophy or activism.
But to make a high budget series with a huge audience on issues of this calibre and NOT research it to make sure you understand what you're talking about is incredibly irresponsible
@@oku12 exactly. You should always interpret a message with an eye on who the message is coming from. If anything, I think the writers demonstrated a keen understanding of the issues. (More than I'd generally expect from people writing what amounts to a really long action movie). But maybe that shows my lack of understanding.
I believe Motif is right. The last time we saw Steve, he was telling the govt that he wasnt asking permission and hed fight them too. Now, we got Sam whiningly appealing to an even worse govt to "do better." Big steps backwards. Dis wants to send a liberal and civil message, not a strong, pro-people, revolutionary message. After all, its a manipulated authoritarian govt that changed the rules of patents and copyrights to allow Dis to become the empire it currently is.
@@danielmanning6312 not everything can be or should be solved with violence and threats. Sam is quite literally trying to be better and only be aggressive when it's the last resort. Steve at that point in time was no longer captain America and he wasn't duty bound to even try, and also he was dealing with an apocalyptic alien invasion not a humanitarian refugee crisis. Sam is wearing the starts and stripes as a black man so he can't just rebel against everything that doesn't fit his view and act as you please. Steve respects all views but never showed any interest in even trying to understand ideas that were not his, and although he didn't have to, it often made him little more than just a very good soldier. Sam, unlike Steve, sees issues as more than an obstacle to be punched through. Also government doesn't always equal oppression and revolutions rarely are pro-people.
one thing they DID pull their punch on however is Karli. Even when Sam mention "these people were kept away with barbed wire" most of the Flag Smashers we see are white instead of brown. They could even do an easter egg by having some be members of the same group from Iron Man 1 that kidnapped Tony Stark, possibly after defecting and fighting for the US and still being kept away like happens to Iraqi and Afghan translators in real life.
“It’s not an assassination, it’s an extrajudicial killing Lana.”
“Apparently the target has killed judges and cops, so who knows how many lives we’re gonna save in the long run once we kill this guy. Well, or girl.”
“You don’t even know the targets identity, do you? Did you even read the dossier?”
“For your information, Lana, I skimmed it.”
where are these lines from ?
@@udbhavshrivastava It’s from Archer, season 6 episode 3 ‘The Archer Sanction’.
@@tedioussugar384 ah thanks a lot !
“Hahahaha... the zone.... one of danger!”
I always love that line by Zemo “There has never been another Steve Rogers”. He doesn’t know about Isiah Bradley. Isiah and Steve aren’t the same situation but Isiah is still uncorrupted.
Uncorrupted in ideals, but still affected (horribly) by what was done to him. Those experiments and incarceration left a serious mark on him. He just never went and let any of that turn him towards or influence him into anything fighting for an ideal. He just wants what many want, to live his life in peace.
True but at the same time even if Zemo knew about Isaiah that wouldn’t change his opinion
Zemo says in the show that it’s the decision to take the serum that’s the problem because in doing so you’re inherently implying your own superiority but in cases like Bucky and Isaiah where it was forced on them that isn’t the case
@@jonasquinn7977 The other angle to this is Steve Rogers himself - as portrayed, scrawny pre-serum Steve didn't think he was better than everyone else, he just wanted to help in any way he could. The serum may not have been "forced" on Steve, but he was chosen by Dr. Erskin.
@@jonasquinn7977 yeah your def right. That being said there is still a theme of superhuman corruption. Walker loses one friend and goes nuts. Isiah and Bucky lose dozens and are tortured for decades and hold it together. The choice to be superhuman is the caveat but Zemo’s base argument is that superpowers of any origin corrupt people.
"They've done that for 500 years". Yeah, he's totally uncorrupted...
The trouble is that we tend to believe that "doing justice" looks cool. The hero is the cool guy, the one who makes the good decisions is aloof. But in reality, doing the right thing often does not look cool at all. We may all believe that we would like to be superheroes, but if he had to live with that kind of responsibility, we would break after a few weeks.
Thank you for the video 😊
this is the problem, Zemo is pretty much the most sane person here.
For real.
The Captain's shield too could be a symbol for use and misuse of the law. What's designed to protect is also used, when thrown, as a way to seek out and harm. Damn fine video.
Morality is social construct the Ruling Class use to control you.
@@undeadblizzard Cool
@@undeadblizzard It certainly can be, but that isn't always the case
@@torrinowens4376 I not talking about thing the everyone should know is bad. Like Raping and Murder. A lot of people wouldn't do that anyway. People usually commit murder if they can get away with it or if they feel there no repercussions. There is also a risk to reward ratio. In some case it okay to murder if you kill the right people like during Jim Crow lynching black people. In some countries is okay to kill gays or trans people. It is even encouraged. The laws will alway be written by the Ruling Class and they will make law benefit them even without you knowing.
I see morality as social construct because while is wrong steal. It okay for Companies you steal from you i.e your labor. You make say ten dollars an hour as a burger flipper or whatever. However the reality you job is worth 30 dollars an hour. I am usually talking about the wrongness that a Restaurant or Grocery store can throwaway food that could be given to the hungry.
@@undeadblizzard Okay, if I am understanding you correctly, then yes I agree, thank you for explaining
Hi Wisecrack. Do you intend on ever bringing back thug notes? I think alot of people would really love it.
Ditto for 8-bit philosophy
I am from that lot
It probably hasn't shown up recently because the original creators of the channel left and whoever is running it now isn't interested in it.
Dope
YES!!! I MISS THUG NOTES!!! IVE SEEN THEM ALL NOW, WHERE HAS THIS FINE SERIES GONE!??
So, Falcon and The Winter Soldier says more about the Protagonist-Centered Morality trope than we thought.
I found the end of the show really lacking, the way they transformed Karli into a cartoon character by the end was a really shitty way to deal with her ideals, which were very valid. Also, the thing about giving a statue to a guy that was locked up and tortured for 30 years and he being cool with it is really weird. They tried to deal with a lot of heavy and real subjects but didn't stick the landing at all. The ending had a really "America is flawed but is still the best" tone and it sucked, especially for non american viewers. Also, "you just have to talk to the politicians and they'll change" is a really bad and naive take.
I felt the same way after watching it, the show tries to tackle heavy subjects but always feels lacking.
I think this is because suggesting we actually question the institutions that allow corrupt people to gain power would hurt how marketable their product is. Social commentary is good as long as it doesn't really hurt those at the top.
@@InsecureCreator Yup. That's the reason they put "some individuals within the government" in Isaiah's statue. That's dumb as hell. Sarah even said in the show that America doesn't care about her people, so that felt a lot like back peddling. It was such a cowardly move. American shows can't toy around with the idea of american imperialism if they're gonna do shit like this.
@@pcapusso The entire Avengers is basically American imperialism with a fancy coat of paint.
@@InsecureCreator It trully is...
@BenjaminTheRogue I agree with your point, but Isaiah was not created for the show. He is the protagonist of the comic "TRUTH: Red, White and Black".
The irony for the show, is that it tried to minimize potential damage by approaching controversies in the safest way, yet ended up offending a lot more. (by the way I am not offended by the finale; I just found it a step down from earlier episodes in terms of plot coherence and character development.)
The new Captain America ends the series with a monologue that borderline justifies terrorism. Sam tells the Senators that the flag smashers' grievouses have merits due to their willingness to use violence to defend it (including bombing civilians). Could you say the same about Nazis or ISIS?
Disney basically believes that a terrorist can be sympathetic as long it is young, white women fighting for open borders.
@@badluck5647 Explanation is not justification.
@@martinsriber7760 With that logic, we shouldn't call ISIS terrorists. Maybe it's time to listen to them before more people like them use violence to get their point across.
That essentially what Sam says about the flag smashers.
@@badluck5647 That's not "with that logic".
@@badluck5647 Uh, have you forgotten the part where the West (especially the British Empire, the USA, and the USSR) has been messing up the Middle East for more than a century ?
Sam on Zemo: I don’t trust him he’s done terrible acts
Sam on Karli: Yeah she’s done terrible acts including intentionally kill civilians but it’s the systems fault she’s like this
Zemo: "The Nazis, Ultron, and Avengers are the same..."
Sam: "The Avengers are our friends!"
Earlier during Civil War...
Tony: "We can't run around the world using force wherever we feel like it. We need to answer to somebody!"
Steve: "Power is best in the hands of people I trust."
It's not a coincidence. Sam and Steve don't question power, they only question their own power and those of people they trust. Sam is just Steve with perspective.
Shes also a Kid, not an accomplished soldier who ran covert black opps missions and Baron of a small country to boot.
@@MrBazBake The only people Steve didn’t trust as much are people who ‘bullies’ and people who hide crucial things from him.
Zemo basically admits he’s a ‘bully’ for bullies and also admits he’s ‘hurt’ bystanders as well. Karli is a ‘bully’ for bullies who ends up ‘hurting’ bystanders as well. The difference is whole show and Karli is acting act like she’s just a person who stands up to bullies which is not true.
@@mkocel being a kid means Jack shit. Some kids have shot up their schools and carjack an Uber driver which resulted in his death
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS Of course being a kid means something. We made up all the rules to the "civilized" world we live in, and kids need to learn it, which takes years and years, especially since they can't really participate in it until they're considered adults. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it makes rehabilitation much more likely. Kids have room to learn and grow. Adults are often too set in their ways.
Isn't this basically Zemo's entire thesis? Superheroes in and of themselves are a State of Exception because the entire justification is who is going to literally stop the super billionaire who can make super weapons the government has never seen before... or The Hulk who can just roid out and smash literally everything. There is a literal fucking magic man running around who can do like ten million things that you and I could barely even dream of... Said Wizard (sorcerer... sorry Sam)... has an entire magic police force for magic crimes. Like the entire world is predicated on States of Exception. With Mutants hopefully coming soon like this gets even worse because then we break into this whole concept of a literal secondary society of people who have powers that a normal human can't protect themselves from... what the fuck do you do in regular civil society when there are people who ought as well be called gods running around?
I guess what I am saying is what makes Sam better than John or even Steve is there is no exception in his blood... nothing that makes him different than you or I, except the good he wants to do. HE isn't the Exception by sheer force of power.
yeah but Zemo is also a hypocrite (or the mcu is, rather), because being uber rich also does make you a person "who can do like ten million things that you and I could barely even dream of". Super rich are also like super soldiers in the sense of being supreme and supremacist, yet he conveniently neglects it.
@@PetersonSilva In the real world yes, wealth is one of the most prevalent examples of the discrepancies between individuals. However, wealth doesn't alter your physiologically based solely on wealth (health is a matter of individuals actions, though the ease of access might mean that of the 1% of super rich they are in better health its not a presequite or a natural conclusion)... a Super Soldier however lives longer and has a far greater capacity to cause immediate individual harm of someone's person (ie hitting them and killing them). Baked into their body, you lack a recourse to stop or control them. I am not arguing though that your wrong per se, but we do in fact have a greater avenue to control or penalize the super wealthy than say a man who can spin his fingers and open a portal and walk out. Or a lady who can alter reality beyond human perception.
With respect to X-Men's allegorical value as a minority... an arbitrary, random system of genetic shuffling, giving way to people with wildly different baked in powers that range from walking through walls to powers that can destroy universes... would lead to societal collapse. The Karen no longer needs to speak to the manager because she with a casual thought overrode your most basic right to choose to comply with your companies' policies.
All superheroes of all kinds are utterly dystopic. That's my point, but yes, wealth to a lesser extent is the same in so far as the social power as well as its ability to give you access to places and people you and I could not get to is similar.
I laughed out loud when he said "stop calling them terrorists"
They only blew up a building full of people and tried to drive a van of hostages off a cliff
I know right? No wonder no one wanted him as captain america
And murdered a US soldier.
@@thefanwithoutaface8105 as she said, his life doesn't matter
The point is that it isn't really helping. It doesn't. Yes, she shouldn't have done what she did. Of course, she had to be stopped.
But demonizing her doesnt solve the problem. And if you dont solve the problem, you are just asking for more Karlis, especially if Nagels research survived somehow.
I think the "they" in that statement was not the flagsmasher, but the refuges of the world in general. The GRC was going to herd everyone, not just one person, so it'd make sense that is not morally right and Cap has a reason to step in and say something.
The show was somewhat entertaining... But yea I couldn't help but roll my eyes when he began a minutes long ted talk with the politicians and NOT give insight on how to solve the problems.
#Bebetter
And when they wrote the senator to have no response other than "You don't understand." That was just insulting to viewers.
People writing this show want a certain result and don't have any idea how to reach it so they demand other people figure it out and then congratulate themselves on providing them with this fresh idea. The thing is, there is no way to reach that result but reality can't stand in the way of a good ideology, can't it?
It's not his job to tell them what to do, just to remind them when their methods are lame.
@BenjaminTheRogue Their methods were to take all the people that they themselves brought into America to maintain their economy and population, show no gratitude for all the hard work those people put in for 5 years, and then dump them in camps to die.
They could've literally not had him do his cringe speech. Bringing the problems up was good enough. They really ruined it with their centrist optimism.
Next up in May: The Philosophy of Jupiter's Legacy.
@@feroxseneca8997 that's obviously not what OP's predicting.
Falcon and Winter Soldier actually has several serious veins running through it. For someone like me who became an adult as America launched the War on Terror, as well as the fact that I am an American so the legacy of race and slavery cannot be ignored, i found the message both deep and on point. This show has far more meaning than you seem willing to give credit for.
@@feroxseneca8997 How do you know it's garbage?
Can we talk about how hilarious it is for Karli or however you spell her name flat out told John Walker she didn’t mean to kill his friend because “he didn’t matter”
This show that that wants to talk about modern American racial politics makes a character we are supposed to in some way sympathize with flat out has her say that Lamar’s (a black man) life didn’t matter
Steve's speeches inspiring awe to everyone.
Sam's speeches, "You need to do better."
Someone needs to get that man a good speech writer.
I just wish Bucky would ask Zemo why he doesnt want to kill him since he is a super soldier
Same
Well he is a main character who will be used in future movies
I guess you missed the part where Sam asked him how he felt about Bucky, and you can see the conflict on Zemo's face. Because he saw his name in Bucky's book, and knows Bucky was indeed a good man.
Bucky had the supersoldier life forced on him against his will, he was brainwashed and mindcontrolled too. Bucky clearly resents his past as the Winter Soldier as well. This sets him apart from other supersoldiers like Red Skull or Emil Blonsky who sought power for themselves. Zemo says that the desire for superior power over others cannot be separated from supremacist ideals, but Bucky didn't desire that power. I think it makes sense that Zemo could have sympathy for Bucky after getting to know him more.
@@AbjectPermanence I might add Isaiah too, if Zemo hears about him I think he would be fine about him too since the serum was also forced onto him.
i honestly am conflicted on this show.
on one hand its asking a lot of good hard questions, on the other hand it tries to answer them. ^^
I saw someone describe Sam as “an enlightened centrist” and...yeah
because centrist isn't inherently bad just many people call themselves "centrists" but in reality they just don't care about "it" until they are effected by "it" or they are calling themselves "centrist" during conversations between actual centrist and "right" because real/true "left" basically does not exist anymore.
Yeah Indeed ! 👍
@@nieznajomy4398 While a centrists generally tend to manage and balance their ideas from both sides what I've seen is that the more annoying or self-righteous and radical leftists have managed quite well to alienate a number of the more moderate leftists. But these people don't feel very identified with conservatives as well, so they tend to define themselves like centrists.
@@verikan4241 The problem with centrists is that they are fundamentally fine with the system as it is, and are only willing to accept change at the margins. Sam's line "do better" says it all...he doesn't have a game plan to change the system, just wants government to tweak a few policies.
Hope that becomes Canon
7:30 "the extrajudicial killing of a *combatant*" I think might be a better word choice here. Dude was literally fighting them, not some innocent civilian bystander.
He surrendered he was not a combattant anymore, but still indeed "civilian" is not the right term.
@@thedead456321 Yeah, I'm not defending Walker's killing of him, but 'civilian' doesn't land quite right here. However, FTR, people can still be designated 'combatants' even after they have surrendered, been captured, or otherwise been neutralized. There's a bunch of people in Guantanamo Bay who can attest to this fact.
No matter what the source material says, Sam refusing systematically to get a super soldier serum is dumb purity test nonsense. His hero Steve Rogers was able to make a difference because he took it, his big and pure heart by itself didn't sway anyone but his childhood friend. If the serum only makes him stronger without corrupting his values then refusing to get it is like systematically refusing to drive a car because you built an identity out of biking. It's goddamn stupid.
Heck, the serum might intensify his good values. For now I understand that they're emphasizing "Not a perfect soldier but a good man." However, they'll eventually have to give him the serum. Otherwise he'll have to rely on tech all the time or worse: Bucky. And if he keeps relying on Bucky to fight supers, that's going to uncomfortably parallel the White Savior trope.
Yo stop with the ‘tom hanks’ savior nonsense it’s just trying to find something to be offended about at this point
A reason to refrain from taking it could be how it could negatively affect him as well as the risks involved with the procedure.
Are we going to get a "Deep or Dumb" for this series too?
Deep? Try sea level
no, because it's dumb and there's no deep
The whole point of FaWS seems to be to acknowledge that traditional superhero themes are starting to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a TRULY multicultural America. Past storylines have been more or less allegorically "white saviorism", but there are enough PoC with consumer clout now to express their displeasure with the implications of perpetually being the villian or the victim ... so the genre has to adapt. And one of the greatest hurdles at the center of the MCU is the concept of celebrating "Captain America" and supporting the goals of an organization with such an icon in a leadership role
@@secularmonk5176 I get what it was trying to do. It just did it very poorly, without subtlety or nuance, and still relying on stereotypical behavior
@BenjaminTheRogue Don't *really* want to fall down this rabbit hole, but are you aware of the concept in rhetorics of "state your opponent's argument honestly before crafting a response"? I wrote what I thought was a fair description of the thesis of the show writers ... I didn't say to what extent I agreed with it (note the "seems to be" in the first sentence). If there is one modification I would make to my initial post, I would add "anachronistic" in front of "Captain America" in the final sentence
“Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion” -Dr Erskine
That’s nonsense as it assumes the meak will always choose to be the bigger man if they gain strength which is something that he who was strong and became stronger is more likely to do than someone with new found strength and feels they got something to prove.
@@GAndreC he was saying that directly to Steve Rogers. Not you. Not every weak (medically) man.
Steve Rogers in comparison to every other choice on the squad.
Did they pull their punches? Watching those clips of Karli from the first half reminded me...
Episode 1-3:
Karli: "The GRC has literally been killing refugees all this time! They just killed an old woman five seconds ago!"
Episode 4:
Sam: "What do you want?"
Karli: "Maybe people should just be nice to each other?"
Episode 6:
Karli: "Let's kill the GRC because they're mean."
Yeaaaaaah.
This show really needed to flesh out Karli's back story and why she hated the GRC so much; it was clear that the show wanted us to see Karli as a sympathetic character and her cause as somewhat justified, even if her methods are extreme, but we were never shown enough of her back story to justify the sympathy we were supposed to feel for her
@@robertwinslade3104 sounds like they needed at least one more episode... or just make it 8 like Wandavision.
@@robertwinslade3104 supposedly they cut out a lot out of scenes that would have explained her pov due it being to close a storyline to the covid 19 pandemic. Like in the first episode, they were stealing vaccines from the grc because they weren't being given to those who weren't blipped away. Originally, Mama Donya died to the pandemic, but they changed it to tuberculosis.
@@ninjacritic I've heard that too, and if it's true, I REALLY want to see that cut of the show. The bad handling of the Flagsmashers was really the show's only major flaw, but seeing as they are the main antagonists it's a pretty big problem. The entire show would have been SOOO much better if there were an extra episode showing their backstory; perhaps covering a little bit of Karli's life before the snap, how the snap changed her life in the intervening 5 years, and then how the blip changed things again. The idea that some people were better off as a result of the snap, then kind of got screwed over in the wake of the blip is such an interesting idea, but is also very believable and is exactly the kind of thing which longer form tv shows like this could explore better than movies; it feels like the show was trying to do this but wasted that chance
They needed to play up the relationships withing Karli's group of Supers. They should have had it so that the guy Walker kills in public with the shield was the most level-headed, compassionate member whose presence kept Karli's rage in check. And after he dies, the rest just follow her like sheep as there in no balance left in the group dynamic.
When you take snipits of the show it seems like a smart show. But I feel it suffer from bad pacing and a villain who your supposed to sympathize with it only says good things and does bad things no I'm between
It was confirmed there was an entire subplot that was thrown out, most likely due to the pandemic, to me that's the reason for the weird pacing, which is the shame as the show is very smart with its big concepts like the one described in the video.
@@LadCarmichael I agree because I feel if her struggle was fleshed out better it would turn this from an average series into a great series. The pieces are there they just weren't able to put them together in my opinion
Yeah I think Carly was not a convincing villain, she was obviously very hypocritical. But I love Zemo, I think he's going to be the new Thanos.
@@ItsMeBarnaby She wasn't going after YOU. She was going after the GRC. Wisecrack literally quotes her in the show saying the GRC is killing refugees. Episode 3 even shows the GRC is hoarding food and medicine and you get to see refugees die because of it.
It wasn't imaginary, you just felt called out for some reason I guess.
@@ItsMeBarnaby see the point being they wanted to present a series which tackles complex ideas, but couldn't since it requires looking at shades of grey deeply but Marvel being Marvel and Disney had to make scenes in which there must be someone who is absolutely in the wrong and someone who is absolutely right, they cannot fit their story properly with the the company goals, so you get bullshit ideas were a person suddenly becomes a cold hearted killer in one scene without any explanation because they have to be evil and in the next without any explanation they are the most vulnerable. They just had an end idea of the show they lacked execution
Can someone please explain to me the difference between John Walker killing an enhanced terrorist, and seal team six killing an unarmed elderly man?
He had captain America's shield they wanted it to be passed to Sam, so he must kill in public
the show tried to tackle some big themes and that is awesome, I commend them for trying. but good lord they messed up the execution, it was just so....bad :/
They tried to do too much. Each theme was important and needed to be treated with care and nuance, but almost every one fell through the cracks because the writers took on too much. They needed to pick one or two and explore those in depth , not addressing 20 at surface level. I thought the show was terrible; I also thought that it had the most potential.
@@nothinglikeburntvag well said!
If I had a nickel for every time Erin Kellyman played the/an antagonist in a spin-off series who was actually morally in the right (or at least had some very good points), I'd have two nickels...which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
P.S.: The other time was Enfys Nest in Solo
Karli if written a little better could have been such a redeemable character and a martyr to the cause she was fighting for. Great series that was almost perfect.
Disney basically believes that a terrorist can be sympathetic as long it is pretty young, white women fighting for open borders. I never got how her terrorist attacks against innocent civilians was so easily chalked up to her being down the wrong path.
If Karli was a bald, white man or middle easterner, then the flag smashers would have been treated like Hydra or ISIS.
@@badluck5647 That was your takeaway?
Interesting.
I loved the show and this video was great but I think it’s important to note that this whole concept only works if we hold Steve Rogers as a hero. When Bucky said Steve was never corrupted by the serum, and Zemo agrees, that is totally out of character - Zemo blamed Steve and the Avengers for the destruction of his home and the death of his family, he believes the super soldier serum corrupts everybody. Of course, Marvel don’t wanna say Steve was a bad guy, but because they don’t their commentary is weakened a bit.
I think the point Zemo was trying to make was that Steve was one-of-a-kind. He is NOT the norm. A man like him only comes around once in a generation, or several. And just because the super soldier serum didn't corrupt him, we shouldn't assume everyone will be as honorable and ethical as Steve. What happened with John Walker really proved that point. Because before then, Walker was a dutiful soldier. Without the serum, he checked all the boxes we would want. But even he can't measure up to Steve. And as soon as he took that serum, it showed.
I think that's also why Zemo's first instinct was to destroy the doses of the serum. Steve is a good man, but what he accomplished as Captain America only gives others an excuse to try and recreate him. That's not just naive. That's dangerous.
At least, that's how I interpret it.
I just found it strange that it seems like we are intended to see John Walker as despicable for his actions, but good ol' Steve Rogers was also all aboard the "we don't want rules/regulations controlling what we can and can't do in foreign countries all across the world" train. If Walker is bad, why didn't we get a scene for Bucky and Sam to stand in front of a judge to answer for breaking mass murderer Zemo out of prison?
@Jake C Tony was a bigger hero, who sacrificed his life (twice) and had a superior character arc in the MCU. He’s better than Steve in every way
@@DefenestrateYourself He created Ultron and Ultron destroyed Zokovia killing a lot of people
Wisecrack, I would love to see a deconstruction on Atom Eve’s (Invincible) take on superpowers. Is she right? Would having powers be best served not being a superhero but instead helping massive amounts of people, not in mortal danger, but in trouble in other ways. Germinating entire fields of crops, saving vast amounts of forests from impending fires, etc.
I second this!
So the franchise that offers abject impunity to the past and current actions of anyone who is a The Good Guy(TM) with a handwavey 'sadness' at best and at worst having a victim of a character's acts of genocide apologise to them for having the audacity to resist tries to do a Justice and Responsibility show, which rapidly becomes completely incoherent and contradictory. What a surprise.
I liked “The Boys” way more than this show.
There’s something . . . off about how some the characters interact with each other. But it makes sense, since Disney owns Marvel.
Definitely agree, The Boys is the superior show. The Boys tackles different issues most times though; things like celebrity worship, corruption, political hypocrisy, greed, class, and the problem of power. Not that Falcon and Winter soldier doesn't engage in these topics somewhat. That said, you're right people feel off in this show. My guess is that it had to do with Disney, but also the Pentagon rewrites. I just wish it explored its themes better, stuck the landing, and had satisfying conclusions.
Even the heroes of the MCU operate on thin lines of what is actually judicially right by the law. Sam and Bucky working with Zemo, for example.
Don't forget Carter.
This was a good video. Thanks for the perspective.
Sam isn't a politician, he can't possibly know everything on how to specifically solve the problem, that's up to the ministers and the senators to do it. Sam did make a very valid point, _"Who's in the room with you when you're making these decisions?"_
If by "doing better" you mean to literally do nothing but point more furiously then this is some what accurate to our current course.
He means, DO YOUR FUCKING JOB. Its not Sams place to make policy. He even tells them, in case you werent listening, that they can make a phone call and shit gets done. Its Sams job to be Cap, not write govt policy. THATS WHAT POLITICIANS GET PAID TO DO. AND THEY HAVE BEEN SUCKING AT IT NOW FOR DECADES. HES RIGHT. PERIOD.
Yes but if they don’t, who will?
@@mkocel No one want sam, only writer of this show want him. And Govt. choose Captain America. Captain America is a title given by Govt. to Steve Roger. Falcon: You can do better. Get your answer.
@@mkocel Modern day superhero gives lecture to others without any proper solution. Govt. is not a God. You can do better and everything will be solved. And also no one care about filthy smashers.
@@rupandutta5210 with that stance does that mean that Steve Rogers was not Captain America during The Winter Soldier movie? What about when during civil war he refused to sign the accords?
I'm not even a fanboy. But from what ive heard he is the embodiment of what america STRIVES to be instead of just falling in line under the government's thumb
The Philosophy of Invincible next 😬😬
Genocide bad. Mark good.
@@shwqa more or less yeah 😂
If anything this show goes easy on the status quo and that is Marvel signature writting all along. I liked the show but that Falcon speech towards the end is meaningless to people in power.
Flagsmashers are terrorists at the end of the day.
@@shazzatulanam6680 it's only in hindsight did I realize that we were supposed to sympathize with the Flagsmashers. I was happy when they all died
@@shazzatulanam6680 Sam Captain "Al Qaeda was willing to die for their cause, why can't we just talk with them" America
If you think about it, it’s the same logic as Thanos. Instead of increasing resources for the people, they kick people out of their homes. Same with Thanos. He could have doubled resources, but he decided to half the universe’s population.
Still a missed opportunity on the end title, it should be:
Captain America and the White Wolf or at least,
Captain America and Sgt. Barnes.
It would have been unearned. Bucky was given too little to do in the show.
You have an interesting take, while the show is toying with this ideas, honestly it doesn't do it in a very good/interesting way but rather simplistic and childish.
This video should have been 4 times as long, honestly - or at the least, a two-parter. There is SO MUCH in this show that directly relates to the topic at hand that wasn't even brought up: the Dora Milaje's "jurisdiction"; the obvious comeback to Zemo's "there has never been another Steve Rogers, has there?" line with Isiah Bradley; the changed script that originally had the refugees also under duress from a pandemic brought on by the forced relocation, etc.
Please consider doing an addendum and/or remake for this, as I feel you have sold yourselves short immensely.
Very nice analysis. Either I wasn't smart enough to notice these themes, or the show did a poor job at showcasing them. But, you guys really put it together well.
Poor job at showcasing them
@@warrenharshaw7677 yeah, it's a show of interesting ideas very clumsily executed
@Impersonal Brahman "here, let me take several minutes to ramble on about how you should be doing better without actually offering any ideas or solutions"
Oh, and let's make sure to keep pretending Karli is supposed to be a sympathetic character after _trying to burn hostages alive._
@@maddie9602 That literally sums up the end of the finale lol
I would argue their execution was nearly perfect if the themes went under most people’s radar. If they’d showcased these themes more obviously we would all be calling the show out for being too “heavy handed” or “overly political.” They expect people to rewatch and reinterpret these things to exhaustion and then post videos about it on RUclips... which means their first priority can always be to make something simple, straightforward and entertaining, in and of itself. Which is certainly NOT to say that they always succeed in this respect.
I feel like they purposefully botched Karli because they couldn't end up condemning the institutions she was fighting against. In the end, Marvel still needs to uphold Captain America, and the American institutions, as ultimately good. They are never going to make another choice. Any time they appear corrupt or evil, it's because of outside influence or its going to end up with some centrist shit take that upholds the system as ultimately good. Which is why Karli ends up looking like an idiot with an inconsistent ideology, despite starting the season as being perfectly justified in her "villainy"
I think in the sentence "we can do better" is the truth and even though some people find the speech woke or preachy. it reflects the truth that was for Steve as he wrote to Tony in civil war. "I believe in people." This was then explored deeper with Sam. He saved the boat not with the help of the bank or the government but with the community = the people.
Now we come to the speech: Sam doesn't say "You can do better." he also doesn't have a clear solution for the problem cause there aren't any clear solutions but again brings up the community by "We can do better." and closes with this the statement of Steve. Changes can only be made that when the community itself looks at a problem from all sides and all parties and no longer from just a position of power.
Isaiah story gets corrected not as a sign that everything is good cause doing better is not a final point but an outlook of future progress.
This also reflects that Sam as Captain America is not as Steve like a symbol to strive for but more a reminder to do better in a way a progression from Steves time where the whole world seemed easier Nazis are bad, America is good but the world is not so simple and therefore there are no easy answers. So Sam with "We can do better" and with the talk to his sister "What is all the fighting and pain worth if I stop fighting - doing better." is more a reminder we never should stop trying to improve as a community to strive to grow also as community only this way we can grow and heal.
This. Finally a take that closely resembles mine. Had to trawl through the " all talk no solution" crowd (which confuses me, like why is everyone asking a superhero to make policy solution?) to get to yours, but I'm really glad to see that someone also notices the parallels between the boat and we, the community. I thought I was the only one who link those two.
@@lyndiss.2017 Yeah, not many got this allegory. Sadly most seem to think the speech of Sam is preachy or "all talk no solution" when for such a problem there is no clear solution. Also Steve could not have found much more that could have been done in this case. As a symbol the only thing one often can do is constantly remind ourself to do better (to be more understanding and forgiving and try exactl)
Yep, the ultimate based ending would be the abolishment of the Captain America figure. But the nature of a superhero show simply makes it impossible.
Why? Sam as Cap is a much stronger symbol.
Marvel is definitely pulling their punches. I think the show was on to something pretty nuanced but in the final episode back tracked a little. I think the problem is there's a fundamental copaganda and militarism within marvel superheroes. I ask myself, what if Karli didn't kill anyone? That's the justification for dying at the end right? The writers purposely gave someone who had ideas that challenge our society a flaw in morality. I also ask in the final episode who did John Walker become a hero? And why is there so many police lights flashing everywhere? We are meant to feel like the righteousness of the red white and blue in the climatic scene. The fact that it's owned by Disney that get funding from the military doesn't help either. Thank you for this breakdown. I loved it.
Rewatching the series I really feel the pacing is abit off.
I felt like it just kinda ended. Got the impression there would be a few more episodes.
From what I heard Corona Virus made them had to rewrite the show. Wanda vistion had the same problem and even had a episode cut so I imagine it the same for Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
My working theory is that it has to do with its length. It's much shorter than an average American season. Its more closer to a 12-episode season of anime. I don't know if it is a bad thing or if we're just not use to story telling in that length.
I’d love it if D+ had a “watch as a movie” option which cut it down to 2 hours- I feel like that would change the pacing.
This analysis was awesome and insightful
Grade A content as usual. Keep it up, Wisecrack
Marvel or, more specifically, the show's writers did pull their punches because they have to. They work for Marvel. And Marvel equals Disney - a multinational corporation.
To ask them to go further means to go further left. To go further left is to not only openly question U. S. jingoism but question capitalism itself. I don't know if we'll ever see that from a Disney product. I'm honestly surprised they went as far as they did.
So, it would take a pirate or public TV broadcast by a non-profit agency, Antifa , Amnesty International or anarcho-libertarian activists or guerillas, based on an underground comic book , to get this story straight? Got'cha!
What an amazing video! Def gonna be reading more on those mentioned philosophers now
Marvel pulled its punches in the last episode.
This show potentially needed a few more episodes to elaborate more.
This show sux in it's depiction of death. I mean in the first scene dozzens of ppl die in combat. But when one dude gets punched to death (out of nowhere btw) and then that's tragic. Not to mention we saw bucky kick a dude trough a wall just seconds befor and that was fine appereantly
Can anyone tell me why Wise Crack no longer does “The Philosophy Of” series?
I mean, how can we expect story writers to fix complex issues?
Careful, imaginatively, and very slowly
By raising awareness...?
The writers aren't the issue. You have to remember that Disney is pro establishment. Hence, Killmonger had to die and T'Challa became a CIA collaborator.
Wands and fairy dust.
@@reanetsemoleleki8219 ....A man trying to start a global race war to kill millions of people that ends up dying is about as 'pro establishment' as the shit I am taking. Are you high on crack?
I think why Sam's speech worked in the end was because everyone was watching and the whole scene was broadcast on the news. Kind of like how Walker got discharged only because the whole world could clearly watch for themselves how he killed that guy. Or how Spider Man became a fugitive because Mysterio manipulated his footage. Not that it makes what they did or say more right or wrong. It's just that people are more likely to take action (or be outraged) when incidents are highly visible. I feel like Marvel is kinda being meta here, since movies are all about what gets to appear on camera.
I don't think it worked because it didn't solve the main issue or offer any solutions to the issue of the displaced people.
@@warrenharshaw7677 They delayed the process and it's implied that they are looking at the refugees' angle too in their policies moving forward. Seriously, why is everyone asking a superhero to make policies and give policy solutions? It's not like Sam wanted to run for office or show inclination for that prior to this.
A peptalk on national broadcast is what a superhero representing the States should do. That, and beating bad guys and looking out for the little guys. Policy making is not part of the job, man. If you have the chops to cook up wonderful policies as a civilian, cool. Sam doesn't, though, so he gives a voice from a moral perspective and stirs their conscience.
@@lyndiss.2017 If he didn't understand the complications of what was going on, which he stated, then why talk about it at all. There can be no morals without understanding. I don't want Sam to create policies, I want him offering solutions on how best to fix, work with the GRC to solve it. Heroes in the comics and in the movies have done just that.
The amount of quality content you guys release every week and month is crazy! Definitely one of the more thoughtful and intelligent channels around. I wish I could subscribe twice!
What about Sharon Carter? She disobeyed the law (in Civil War) evaded (left the country) to avoid punishment and went to Madripoor, which is pretty much a land without law.
Marvel owned by Disney:
Bucky: where's my gun 🔫
Disney has owned Marvel since 2009...They've given him weapons in all of his appearances except this show...
Since people were watching Sam pontificate over the TV, well guess what. That's not how broadcast TV works. Law enforcement would have cordoned off the area from civilians (for their own safety) and the press usually waits up near a press podium or try to capture imagery from a distance. Sam's conversations with the GRC officials would have never been caught on camera. Or at least there would have been no audio since it's not like the press would have mic'ed up the place.
I look forward to seeing the direction Sam takes Captain America
I felt like Sharon's scene at the end should have been a post credit scene to keep from stealing from Cap's thunder.
Also, who lets someone back into the CIA without doing another background check?
really should have watched the last episode before I went on the comments
I suspect Sharon along with higher ranking officials who brought her in are all skrulls and this will come out in the secret invasion series when it comes out. I think it’s likely that every series between now and then will have a character who turns out to be a skrull. I hope so at least since it will be a lot of fun with the fan theories trying to see who you can trust! (From the old tag line for the comic series it’s based on)
@@trowa9960 Interesting take, I hadn't thought of that.
I noticed that Nick Fury seemed to be in charge of a Skrull operation at the end of one of the movies... how would even he be sure of what's really going on, I wonder.
@@logan563 sorry bro. Didn't spoil the really big reveal though.
@BenjaminTheRogue So I have another point of reference, would you say Steve Rogers was a prick?
Great video Wisecrack, keep up the good work.
The writers wanted to make show for big problems and ideas. But Marvel show was not the right format.
I see a lot of these same themes in The Grand Budapest Hotel, a film that concerns itself obliquely with the cyclical appearance of fascism. It's no accident that the first character to die is the lawyer.
Damn, made me want to watch this series
Its really good, but the last episode is probably the worst
why are you watching an analysis or dive into a piece of media..... and you haven’t watched the piece of media in the first place. Strange.
@BenjaminTheRogue nope
You really should. Unless you need hard lines between good and bad drawn for you.
@BenjaminTheRogue batwoman levels of writing?? Sounds a big stretch to me lmao
Indeed. Its not enough to invest power in individuals and hope that they have strong morals. Power must be checked.
Exactly! Man this is such a great video
Def pulled punches. Sam "Centrist™" Wilson was annoying but I mostly like his character. The flagsmashers needed to be flesh out a bit more, I don't really buy that Karli wouldn't have a better counter than "WHAT NO *THEYRE* THE FASCISTS!!"
also zemo thooo
I love Sam as Captain America, but the last episode did him dirty and made a “girls get it done” moment
Hes the right choice to replace Steve, but the last episode was shit, like you said. I hyper cringed at the "look its the black Falcon" then "no son, its Captain America". It even had the 1980's "here comes my hero" close up. Also his new uniform just has too much going on.
I was hoping they would give him the serum and he would ditch the wings.
@@Aaron-kj8dv in all fairness, thats literally just the suit from the comics. but yea the last episode had a few cringe moments but all in all i thought it was a really solid show
And how we could forget the great New Cap line:
"I don't have the answer, but we can do better"... ...
really revealing
Sam is humble and respectful....he has the potential to be a better leader than Rogers.
"Our job is to demand solutions not to provide solutions." - Greta Thunberg
It's so good to know modern day screenwriters think brainwashed kid logic should be the message of their show.
@@RichardServello that's not humble if you force them to do something (stopping what they were voting for) without knowing what is better and what is the solution. It's arrogant.
If you don't know how to operate on a heart, you don't go to the medics and say: stop the procedure you're doing and do something else, just better than this time.
Maybe what they are doing is the best that can be done at that time, maybe it's worse in the short term but better in the long term, maybe it's a choice of the majority and you're forcing your only view onto the democratic system etc.
@@poslednisoud Maybe. And maybe it's the job of elected officials to find solutions and the responsibility of the public to hold them accountable for those decisions, up to and including sending them back to the drawing board when they dont get it right
@@MrRafalel That's a bit if a false equivalence. They had time and opportunity to find a better solution to the one they had come with.
It's not Sam's place to do the elected officials job for them. It is his place to let them know what the standard is, what's expected of them, and encourage them to live up to it.
Hi Wisecrack, great video as per usual. I’ve got a video idea for you: the evil Superman trope throughout the 2010s. You’ve got the original Injustice game kicking it off in 2011, and then you’ve got Homelander from The Boys, Omni-Man from Invincible, even John Walker from F&TWS to some extent. And maybe there’s another example that could be derived from Jupiter’s Legacy on Netflix, don’t know, haven’t watched it yet. Perhaps there’s something to be said about how those in these respective stories are overeager to put their complete faith in these seemingly altruistic, selfless characters that are revealed to be anything but, by the finale.
The show was great, but come on......the Flag Smashers were terrorists, unless the definition of that word has somehow changed.
the definition always changes depending on how it effects those in power
@@dexdrako you mean it’s different people doing it for different ideologies, but the definition is the same.
@@Mr_Case_Time no I mean exactly what I said.
Or answer this question, if the US army blows up a wedding to kill a person that could possibly be attending ( but wasn't) how is that not a terrorist action? Or the cia teaching drug dealing how to fight and giving them weapons to destabilize south america countries not a terrorist action?
The use of force/death of innocents has long been a well used tool of every government in history. The only difference between a hero revolutionary and a terrorist mostly comes down to how's side are they on in the history books.
@@dexdrako you’re molding actions to fit the definition of terrorism, not changing the definition of it. So let’s say that those actions fall under the established definition of terrorism; the Flagsmashers would still be considered terrorists. So you’re not exactly arguing with me. What are you doing?
America was technically built by local terrorists
Civilian? Nico and his terrorist cell bombed an entire building full of people, and he in particular was fine with it, and he and his terrorist cell are in a straight combat situation where they personally targeted John because he carried a symbol on his uniform , and they just finished killing a fellow soldier, that’s no civilian mate, that a enemy terrorist combatant, and no he isn’t unarmed, he’s a super soldier, and no he did NOT surrender, nor did he even give up the rest of the terrorists cell when asked multiple times, which I would also take as a sign of surrendering
I think it's pretty clear that John Walker broke the law. Nico posed no immediate threat, and no matter the law he had broken, the punishment isn't summary execution.
I put it to my mom that it's about everyone crossing lines that they wouldn't have before (for sharon that means the last time we saw her), everyone except sam; for the most part.
Hi wisecrack please do a philosphy of the weeknd the singer
What they don’t do music also wait your turn I’ve been requesting one for half a year
They could totally do The Weeknd’s new album. The videos tell a story.
@@j0an-07-arc6 l know they dont do music but was hopping they would do what they did with the video the philosohy of kanye west and side note wow the dedication is inspiring half a year is long and lve been at this for 1 or 2 months and lm already tired
@@ghandiman exactly what l was hoping for
Might as well ask what's the philosophy of David Townsend.
One thing to note: one of Agamben's points is that the 'state of exception' was the originatory relationship between the sovereign and the people they rule, it was always how power worked and isn't a new thing. This contrasts to Foucault who saw the 'state of exception' as beginning in the French Revolution.
Additionally, the state of exception subjected upon people outside the law (refugees, stateless people and Agamben's ever favorite example of the Homo Sacer) is a mirror of the Sovereign, who also exists outside the law by virtue of being above it and deciding upon its application.
I knew someone was going to deep dive this miniseries! It was so packed full of different political and/or philosophical themes, I was locked in with the dialogue that contained the lines about means to ends myself. Feel like watching it through beginning to end at least one more time.
There is much discussion to be had over this show, really well written, I hope all the people involved are able to keep the momentum going through to the next season as Sam faces whatever challenges he's going to have to face in the fight to actually do better. So many systemic hurdles that won't be easy and he's not taking any soldier serum which could be compared to concepts of the ubermensch.
Love this channel because of the learning factor i.e. philosophy. Could you do a philosophical review of "ed wood" or "The Disaster Artist"
speaking of TFATWS, its interesting to see how Machiavellian everyone truly is, and I think this was done, as the book Zemo was reading was Machievelli, and several characters do what they do because "the ends justify the means"
Am I the only one that is sad that this show became more like the falcon and a small bit of the winter soldier
can you make videos talking about invincible ? the new show from amazon prime ?
great show
I looooove that show, im still trying to figure out why omni man did what he did. (If anyone knows please don't spoil it)
@@Aaron-kj8dv you're in for a treat my friend
@@c0nfracto awwww shit I just watched the newest episode. It was so good. Now it makes sense.
But now who's left to defend earth? Omni man didn't even sweat when he was whooping invincible. When he comes back nobody can even stop him.
I know that John Walker killed Nico but you must admit that Karli Moganthau was terrorist and her small group of super soldiers were also terrrorists. In my opinion they only stripped John Walker of his title because he killed him in public. Also in the last episode he tries save the civillians who were taken hostage by the Flag smashers instead of trying to kill Karli (she killed his friend Lemar).
Man this falcon show do be lookin pretty good. If I cared a little more for superheroes I would totes watch.
It really isn't any good at all
My new film/tv routine: wait for the Wisecrack intro for the show to make inferences about the philosophical value of the show. if it seems interesting, stop video at "spoilers ahead" then resume after binging the series.
Yeah, that show was almost depressing.
This is a really good video dude
I like how this show proved that Thanos was right.
Well for a few generations. Then the population back to where it was. But now everyone is use to having more resources. The whole plan didn't make much sense. Neebs gaming did a cartoon on this.
NO
Sharon Carter makes a seeming reference to Diogenes the Cynic in the final episode to Falcon by saying "You're standing in my light." Something Diogenes said to Alexander The Great when they first met. It stands out to me but I can't seem to make a clear connection of it towards any other ends or bigger picture. Any other references to Greek Philosophers in the show? Would appreciate any convo on the matter.
FYI: The anecdote you're referring to states that Diogenes said that to Alexander the Great (the veracity of that story is suspect among historians). Julius Caesar lived a couple centuries after the anecdote is said to have taken place.
@@TheOriginalZimmy Hey! Thank you so much for the correction! I'd like to add, although the story is suspect, existence of the story itself is enough for it to be referenced by.
(More realistic scene)
Falcon America: Do your job better!
Politician: What would you know about my job? What makes you think im not trying? Do you know this system in and out? Do you work with obstinate fools who block every chance at change? Do you experience the slow descent into bitterness realizing that you can't do anything for change when both groups won't cooperate even when it benefits both of them!? Have you any idea how hard it is to get anyone even on your side to cooperate with you, or if you don't tow the line how fast you'll kicked out or sold down the river!? Why don't you become a politician and see how hard this job is and then come at me with your do better attitude.
Falcon America: Uh...
(also reality is cruel and no not everyone has equal power. It sucks but hey what else is new)
"you can feed a million people with a phone call"
" Try going through dozens of people and the court, all this taking years to go through and potential to be denied somewhere down the line"
John wasn't a psycho. He had anger issues, yes. A very poor understanding of why captain America was so revered, yes. Had ptsd, yes but was he a psycho definitely not.
His anger and frustration was because he found a calling that he really wanted to do well in. He received this title after serving his time in our military. He was highly decorated for dealing with a skirmishes that screwed with him mentally. He wanted to be cap because cap was idolized for the things he did right. He was popular as cap because he was sold as a patriot. He is a patriot of america. In other countries that doesn't buy you much leeway. This made him angry. Even then he expected things that were never promised to him. World wide respect and an avenger. He was neither.
I always love watching these philosophy videos in this channel
If half of the entire universe was randomly just un-existed then it would be statistically certain that at least one planet would be completely untouched.
@BenjaminTheRogue yeah, true.
“I am Captain America.”
“From a certain point of view.”
"Any man who must say, I am the king, is no true king." - Tywin Lannister
John constantly telling everyone around that he is Captain America really showed how much he really wasn't.
@BenjaminTheRogue he does it when no one is really asking him. It was really cringy when he did it in front of the Wakandans. He's wearing the uniform. Don't say anything if people didn't ask.
Great commentary and some after thought on what was, at best, a half-baked American cookie.
Although I can understand and empathise with Sam's struggle with taking the mantle of Cap, but I don't understand how Sam is currently different than his other good mate/Avenger - WarMachine/ Rhodes?
Both can fly, both served/serving in the armed forces, both are active Avengers and both are African-American. On the power levels, both are similar if not equal, as both their suits are flight enabled, equipped with destructive toys. Just because one is now called Cap, but in purely their roles as high metal suit flying Avengers, doesn't it make one of them redundant? Beyond the race angle, I'm concerned how Sam would make an *impact* as new Cap. He almost got his a$$ whooped along with a catchy barb _'Clothes don't make you a monk'_ from Batroc(ouch), even concedes in his final speech that his only power is his *conviction*! That makes him a good man, as Erskine (everyone has forgotten about him, not even a reference) put it but his nobility needs a serum boost. For the next cosmic level threat, which would include the likes of Eternals in the MCU, mere conviction won't be enough.
It's hard not to draw comparisons with Steve Rogers, who had phenomenal conviction in his self righteousness with a power level to boot. But in the words of Zemo, _"There hasn't been another Steve Rogers"._
The show seems to mention those themes but not much more.
Oh its no accident... this is all leading up to thunderbolts, the very definition of the exception outside the law.