i think ultimately the Hook coaster was their demise. yeah X killed them financially but they were set to recoup that loss but the plans fell through. in a way, Schilke never left Arrow either since he still works with S&S. also you can almost call something like Steel Curtain the 3rd gen arrow looper. Joe Draves admittedly did pay alot of homage to Drachen Fire in that ride.
You never noticed that Tennessee is already a fourth Generation Looper? Dachen Fire was third generation. Somewhere between Viper at Darien Lake and Vortex was the second.
@@henryh.489 true, RMC is a great company, but so was arrow, and arrow went bankrupt right as they started to move on to smoother and better coasters so yeah..
As much as I would love to see Arrow Dynamics reborn, in the end, RMC is the more beloved Company as only Magnum-XL-200, Tennessee Tornado, and X2, and to some extent, Big Bad Wolf could compete with RMC
@@Gabes1321 It's because it's not trying too hard to be the best coaster on the planet. It's simple. It's an oversized arrow mine train with airtime. Steel Vengeance is a coaster with a lot of engineering flaws. Its first two years, its had to be rebuilt every night. The RMC trains are not very good and full of problems. And the restraints are not very comfortable.
I feel RMC was heading down the hybrid path even without Alan. The big difference is I don't see the remade coaster projects being as ambitious. Essentially RMC would be known for turning bad woodies into super steel woodies. So much more sticking to the original coaster layout. I'd see them in a similar place to Premier Rides. A reliable coaster company for budget projects, but not a top tier coaster company as they lack the artistic ambition with their projects.
It’s a dilemma, like would u want arrow to come back or have rmc coasters. For me I would want arrow to come back because they made many great (but rough) steel masterpieces
Arrow was killed by one thing. Not upgrading the way they built their coasters. Nobody was working with then anymore because they built rough rides. Ron tumor should have adopted cad sooner. Instead his stubbornness killed the entire company.
Great vid dude, love the speculation! Would also appreciate if you upped the volume/got closer to your mic in your vids though I watch a bunch of RUclips and I always have to increase my computer volume only on your vids.
Imagine if they had the benefit of modern computing for design and manufacturing. Smooth transitions (arrow's real Achilles heal) and force calculations to end some of the jerkyness and headbanging. I'd love some company to come back in and retrack and slightly modify some classic arrows in the big sit-down long train coaster with loops, corkscrews, and adding rolls.
they did near the end. thats why Tennessee Tornado came out so good. most of the Arrow Loopers were designed by Ron Toomer, who never even rode his rides. Schilke rides everything hes apart of. He looked like he was having a great time on the Axis coaster prototype
If they never gone bankrupt we have had at least 4 coaster manufacturers in america! As we would of had Arrow, RMC, GCI & Gravity Group which been pretty cool.
I wonder my home park SFOT(Six Flags Over Texas) would affect this scenario? I think that SFOT would probably be the first to receive the third-gen arrow looper in 2011 to replace Texas Giant because Alan still works with arrow in the scenario.
Good start. But it's just a combo of everything that actually happened just with an Arrow banner on it. The Arrowbatic (An inverting, inverted Wild Mouse) and the Wild Mouse were the plan for Arrow to make money... So I would think that's where Arrow would have focused their energy in the early years of this prediction video. You have to keep in mind, the Arrowbatic was a finished concept, just no one had the time to buy it. The rumor was Indiana Beach was the most interested in it around the time the company fell into bankruptcy. Had Arrow survived, one could argue it'd be at the demise of S&S. One thing that was mentioned in a, behind the scenes interview with a former Arrow designer, was that Arrow was also beginning work on a Hydraulic Launch coaster concept around the turn of the millennium. So, I would guess some resources would have gone there, rather than focus on the flat steel hybrid concept that was mentioned around 2007. RMC would still do this, but they'd focus on another subcontractor, my guess would be someone like GCI. I also think the small 4-D concept would stay with the Zakspin rather than Arrow focusing on the free spin. By that point, they'd be chucking out Arrowbatic's like Nike chucks out shoes. The last thing mentioned in one of the behind the scenes interviews for the Arrow Documentary is that there was actually a bit of love being tossed around the Suspended coaster concept. Now, they didn't say anything outright. But if one reads between the lines, an argument can be made that Arrow might have been working on a "Version-2" of the suspended coaster. Also, an argument can be made that Big Bad Wolf and Eagles Fortress would have never been removed because of Arrow sticking around as well.
I would disagree with RMC not existing, but rather this scenario. Since Arrow was based in Utah, I have the opinion that the Alan Schilke would end up meeting the owners of RMC and they join teams together. RMC becomes a builder of roller coasters for Arrow and Arrow with their connections and resources are able to grow the hybrid coaster faster. With this development Arrow is finally able to develop an even better roller coaster car that eliminated the hard over the shoulder restraints, this allows Arrow to increase their revenue streams.
Also to add the timing of the Bankruptcy was the worst moment to go bankrupt. The USA and a part of the world was put into a recession after 9/11 and the Dot Com Bubble burst. No one had any money to help a company restructure, so IMO that is part of the reason why the went bust. But in the documentry Alan Schilke stated that Arrow was slow to advance in the use of computers from roller coaster design, they were still old school. I think if they had adopted computer design for roller coasters earlier it could have solved alot of issues. Alan had stated that the tubular design that Arrow had was at it's buildable limit, it was maxed out on its ability to be used. This is where I think Alan Schilke has a chance meeting with those from RMC, instead of RMC going alone, they see Arrow as being able to help them. This allows a revolutionary change for Arrow. The factory where RMC is located is able to produce the ibox track and be the game changer for Arrow. Arrow becomes what RMC is today. The other thing Alan Schilke stated about Arrow was the fishhook was make or break for them, they needed that project to succeed and the delays due to neighborhood complaints is what undid the project. I do think that the 4d design would have caught on in the mean time and parks like Cedar Point trying to out do each other by buying an even bigger and better one to out compete SFMM. But unfortunately the timing of the bankruptcy during a post 9/11 recession is what killed the company and they were not able to restructure and continue.
How about RMC is still making hybrids with Ibox track but with a super boring layout while arrow build their new hybrids with the today's RMC's style layout designed by alan. arrow has built hybrids before
I don't think arrow coasters would be really comfortable because the last thing they were working on which is pipeline coaster was called like "next generation of thrill rides" which looked a bit too unrealistic and rough to be exact.. if arrow tried to mass produce pipeline coaster, they would have a reputation similar to vekoma SLC's today.. I think.. ruclips.net/video/qOeXGSNT9UI/видео.html
Very interesting! Yet, in "reality" It IS a survival of the fittest type biz. Even more tricky than building commercial aircraft. While you'll have a base aircraft that can be "stretched" in time, ride manufacturing is a fickle "seductress" The economy, change in tastes, and market constantly change. R&D eats up capital as pardon the pun Arrow has to find the elusive "dart board" in the real world. Designers also want to make "their" mark, so they might go out on their own & make a niche' market. There is not a lot of 'pie" to have as a builder. BTW Magic Mountain was "record greedy" with it's rivalry @ Cedar Point. there was really NO point in this. It also nearly caused the park to close after AstroWorld. MM almost went under TWICE!!!!
@idkwhattoputhere 1. Tennessee tornado was a regular looper, nothing innovative about that. B&M we’re doing it 10x better already. 2. How many more 4d coasters were built? Only 2. I wouldn’t call that much of a success. After all, anybody could’ve produced that given enough money; which they were expensive as hell. And that coaster caused arrow to go defunct so DEFINITELY not a success. 3. Fishhook was never built. What more do I need to say. It’ll be ‘funny’ to see your arguments against this.
@idkwhattoputhere I never mentioned s&s. Also b&m WAS doing 10x better. Plus the reason arrow went bankrupt was because they promised six flags a certain price but couldn’t get it for that price so they had to pay out of pocket
In short, Six Flags pretty much killed Arrow over the size of the 4th dimension coaster.
Knott’s also put TOGO into bankruptcy so I don’t get what’s with LA parks and bankrupting companies
Magic mountain also helped put Vekoma into bankruptcy in 2001 when they ordered all those giant boomerangs... CALIFORNIA STOP
Alan Schilke said that the Vegas project falling through is what ultimately caused Arrow to go bankrupt, not the X coaster.
@@dindog22 it was x that put them in bankruptcy. They wanted th stratosphere coaster to save them but it never happend
@@cedarflags i mean are we complaining about TOGO being bankrupt??. 'Cuz if they were still around wow at every park those heads would br GONE
i think ultimately the Hook coaster was their demise. yeah X killed them financially but they were set to recoup that loss but the plans fell through.
in a way, Schilke never left Arrow either since he still works with S&S.
also you can almost call something like Steel Curtain the 3rd gen arrow looper. Joe Draves admittedly did pay alot of homage to Drachen Fire in that ride.
It is frankly really impressive that we still have one of the most insane coasters ever built is still operating due to its rough early years.
You never noticed that Tennessee is already a fourth Generation Looper?
Dachen Fire was third generation.
Somewhere between Viper at Darien Lake and Vortex was the second.
Viper at Darien is a Arrow-Huss model.
You should do one on Schwarzkopf
yes
I wish six flags just went with the smaller prototype lol. It would save such a legendary company who could then continue to innovate in the industry.
I mostly agree, but I’m also really glad Alan Schilke ended up at RMC.
Six flags in a manufacturer killer.
Six flags is a manufacturer killer.
@@henryh.489 true, RMC is a great company, but so was arrow, and arrow went bankrupt right as they started to move on to smoother and better coasters so yeah..
@@Jolei33 so is paramount parks when they sued togo over Windjammer lol
Wow! This is one hell of an alternative timeline! Would of changed everything!
As much as I would love to see Arrow Dynamics reborn, in the end, RMC is the more beloved Company as only Magnum-XL-200, Tennessee Tornado, and X2, and to some extent, Big Bad Wolf could compete with RMC
Magnum and tennesse tornado aren’t even close to what RMC does 😅
There no way Magnum and Tennessee Tornado could compete with RMC lol
@@Gabes1321 Magnum provides better airtime than most RMC's without the medieval RMC restraints...
@@f1fan112 no way... I don’t understand how people rate magnum so highly it’s not even that good
@@Gabes1321 It's because it's not trying too hard to be the best coaster on the planet.
It's simple. It's an oversized arrow mine train with airtime.
Steel Vengeance is a coaster with a lot of engineering flaws.
Its first two years, its had to be rebuilt every night. The RMC trains are not very good and full of problems. And the restraints are not very comfortable.
I feel RMC was heading down the hybrid path even without Alan. The big difference is I don't see the remade coaster projects being as ambitious. Essentially RMC would be known for turning bad woodies into super steel woodies. So much more sticking to the original coaster layout.
I'd see them in a similar place to Premier Rides. A reliable coaster company for budget projects, but not a top tier coaster company as they lack the artistic ambition with their projects.
We could see a lot of innovation from Arrow if they if they were still around. Imagine is they had made the axis coaster. Great video!
if alan never went to RMC they still would be doing hybrids cuz fred grubb was the one who made the ibox track
Fred developed it along with Alan, so I doubt it.
Yes but Alan was the designer. I could see them supplying the ibox track for other companies but not for themselves
You have to keep in mind... Ride Centerline wouldn't be a thing. So, therefore, the IBOX would still happen, but they'd need a new design partner
maybe RMC would still be retracking woodies
Yeah the layouts would be a bit different but the technology would still exist in some way
It’s a dilemma, like would u want arrow to come back or have rmc coasters. For me I would want arrow to come back because they made many great (but rough) steel masterpieces
Arrow was killed by one thing. Not upgrading the way they built their coasters. Nobody was working with then anymore because they built rough rides. Ron tumor should have adopted cad sooner. Instead his stubbornness killed the entire company.
Great vid dude, love the speculation! Would also appreciate if you upped the volume/got closer to your mic in your vids though I watch a bunch of RUclips and I always have to increase my computer volume only on your vids.
Imagine if they had the benefit of modern computing for design and manufacturing. Smooth transitions (arrow's real Achilles heal) and force calculations to end some of the jerkyness and headbanging. I'd love some company to come back in and retrack and slightly modify some classic arrows in the big sit-down long train coaster with loops, corkscrews, and adding rolls.
they did near the end. thats why Tennessee Tornado came out so good.
most of the Arrow Loopers were designed by Ron Toomer, who never even rode his rides. Schilke rides everything hes apart of. He looked like he was having a great time on the Axis coaster prototype
That was fun, thanks :)
That first one was basically the same as DragonFyre
If they never gone bankrupt we have had at least 4 coaster manufacturers in america! As we would of had Arrow, RMC, GCI & Gravity Group which been pretty cool.
I wonder my home park SFOT(Six Flags Over Texas) would affect this scenario? I think that SFOT would probably be the first to receive the third-gen arrow looper in 2011 to replace Texas Giant because Alan still works with arrow in the scenario.
This and the Arrow documentary by ACE are great!! 👍🏼
Good start. But it's just a combo of everything that actually happened just with an Arrow banner on it.
The Arrowbatic (An inverting, inverted Wild Mouse) and the Wild Mouse were the plan for Arrow to make money... So I would think that's where Arrow would have focused their energy in the early years of this prediction video.
You have to keep in mind, the Arrowbatic was a finished concept, just no one had the time to buy it. The rumor was Indiana Beach was the most interested in it around the time the company fell into bankruptcy.
Had Arrow survived, one could argue it'd be at the demise of S&S.
One thing that was mentioned in a, behind the scenes interview with a former Arrow designer, was that Arrow was also beginning work on a Hydraulic Launch coaster concept around the turn of the millennium. So, I would guess some resources would have gone there, rather than focus on the flat steel hybrid concept that was mentioned around 2007. RMC would still do this, but they'd focus on another subcontractor, my guess would be someone like GCI. I also think the small 4-D concept would stay with the Zakspin rather than Arrow focusing on the free spin. By that point, they'd be chucking out Arrowbatic's like Nike chucks out shoes.
The last thing mentioned in one of the behind the scenes interviews for the Arrow Documentary is that there was actually a bit of love being tossed around the Suspended coaster concept. Now, they didn't say anything outright. But if one reads between the lines, an argument can be made that Arrow might have been working on a "Version-2" of the suspended coaster.
Also, an argument can be made that Big Bad Wolf and Eagles Fortress would have never been removed because of Arrow sticking around as well.
I would disagree with RMC not existing, but rather this scenario. Since Arrow was based in Utah, I have the opinion that the Alan Schilke would end up meeting the owners of RMC and they join teams together. RMC becomes a builder of roller coasters for Arrow and Arrow with their connections and resources are able to grow the hybrid coaster faster. With this development Arrow is finally able to develop an even better roller coaster car that eliminated the hard over the shoulder restraints, this allows Arrow to increase their revenue streams.
Also to add the timing of the Bankruptcy was the worst moment to go bankrupt. The USA and a part of the world was put into a recession after 9/11 and the Dot Com Bubble burst. No one had any money to help a company restructure, so IMO that is part of the reason why the went bust. But in the documentry Alan Schilke stated that Arrow was slow to advance in the use of computers from roller coaster design, they were still old school. I think if they had adopted computer design for roller coasters earlier it could have solved alot of issues. Alan had stated that the tubular design that Arrow had was at it's buildable limit, it was maxed out on its ability to be used. This is where I think Alan Schilke has a chance meeting with those from RMC, instead of RMC going alone, they see Arrow as being able to help them. This allows a revolutionary change for Arrow. The factory where RMC is located is able to produce the ibox track and be the game changer for Arrow. Arrow becomes what RMC is today.
The other thing Alan Schilke stated about Arrow was the fishhook was make or break for them, they needed that project to succeed and the delays due to neighborhood complaints is what undid the project. I do think that the 4d design would have caught on in the mean time and parks like Cedar Point trying to out do each other by buying an even bigger and better one to out compete SFMM.
But unfortunately the timing of the bankruptcy during a post 9/11 recession is what killed the company and they were not able to restructure and continue.
I'd also predict that Arrow would offer a track and train replacement program for their older arrow coasters to make them more smoother and enjoyable.
Of there was no B&M
I think if X didn’t fail, I think cedar point, Alton towers, and many others would want these models
you sound like the real life lore guy
Everyone would have a Arrow 4d coaster and not a s&s freespin
I'm a Arrow fanboy
How about RMC is still making hybrids with Ibox track but with a super boring layout while arrow build their new hybrids with the today's RMC's style layout designed by alan. arrow has built hybrids before
I don't think arrow coasters would be really comfortable because the last thing they were working on which is pipeline coaster was called like "next generation of thrill rides" which looked a bit too unrealistic and rough to be exact.. if arrow tried to mass produce pipeline coaster, they would have a reputation similar to vekoma SLC's today.. I think..
ruclips.net/video/qOeXGSNT9UI/видео.html
Very interesting! Yet, in "reality" It IS a survival of the fittest type biz. Even more tricky than building commercial aircraft. While you'll have a base aircraft that can be "stretched" in time, ride manufacturing is a fickle "seductress" The economy, change in tastes, and market constantly change. R&D eats up capital as pardon the pun Arrow has to find the elusive "dart board" in the real world. Designers also want to make "their" mark, so they might go out on their own & make a niche' market. There is not a lot of 'pie" to have as a builder. BTW Magic Mountain was "record greedy" with it's rivalry @ Cedar Point. there was really NO point in this. It also nearly caused the park to close after AstroWorld. MM almost went under TWICE!!!!
But Six Flags is the one who killed Arrow
At what point did arrow stop using tanget raidious
No Eejanaika? No Untamed? No SteVe? No Iron Gwazi? No, thanks! I would prefer the scenario we have today!
the S&S freespin sucks. the Arrow version would be way better and not like that garbage
This sounds awful but I’m glad that Arrow went defunct because then we wouldn’t have S&S or RMC today!!
@WaterishDog they just weren’t keeping up with standard tho
@idkwhattoputhere you don’t wanna spend time because you know ur wrong…
@idkwhattoputhere 1. Tennessee tornado was a regular looper, nothing innovative about that. B&M we’re doing it 10x better already. 2. How many more 4d coasters were built? Only 2. I wouldn’t call that much of a success. After all, anybody could’ve produced that given enough money; which they were expensive as hell. And that coaster caused arrow to go defunct so DEFINITELY not a success. 3. Fishhook was never built. What more do I need to say. It’ll be ‘funny’ to see your arguments against this.
@idkwhattoputhere what opinions. Did the things I mentioned not happen? They did happen
@idkwhattoputhere I never mentioned s&s. Also b&m WAS doing 10x better. Plus the reason arrow went bankrupt was because they promised six flags a certain price but couldn’t get it for that price so they had to pay out of pocket