Calling All Gun Collectors!!! Enfield Proof Marks
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- A look at the proof marks on British Rifles as an example of what to look for when purchasing collector guns. The Enfield .303 British is a fantastic example.
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Those British 303 ‘s are in most households in rural Nova Scotia Canada where I live. All our grandfathers used them in the wars and tons of people I know have them hanging in they’re living rooms and still hunt with them. Great video. Thanks !!
My first real rifle was my grandfather's 1917 Enfield. After graduating from .22 the .303 was a real joy to learn to shoot and bring down game with.
They are known as Newfie Weatherbys on the East Coast 😅
Regarding the magazine cut-off on British Lee action rifles: Before the advent of stripper clips, the magazine cut-off was intended to allow the rifle to be fired as a single-shot with the magazine kept in reserve (as you say). However, after the British army adopted stripper clips they (mostly) retained the cut-off for a different reason. It was no longer for single shot loading, but rather for unloading. When a soldier had a round chambered and wanted to go back to the usual condition of having the rifle loaded but without a round chambered, they would apply the cut-off and work the bolt - thus ejecting the chambered round and closing the bolt without chambering another. This is explained in the musketry regulations issued at the time the SMLE was adopted.
Brilliant!!!! Thank you for explaining. I would not have thought of that.
I have a 1901 Lee enfield No 1* which doesn't have a stripper clip guide but does have a magazine cut off , and lobbing sights , it was used in the Boer War
I could not care less about the background. You could film from your toilet for all I care. Its the rich content and knowledge I am after and so far that part is great. I would love to be able to run around with you a while and pick your brain about many things. Thanks for the vids. Please keep um coming!
Hi Jim - Sorry I'm slow to thank you. I'll keep trying and going. Your words encourage me a lot!
All great stuff but here in Canada we have heaps of these along with SKS rifles all as cheap as chips. When I was a kid 35-40 years ago you could pick one up for $30 and even still you can find a sporterized gun in great condition for $400 or full military for another $100-200. (Absolutely worth it, but for me my cut off is five). Things have changed and now Canada’s rifle has become the SKS, either the Chinese or decommissioned Russian guns, (Chinese are often tighter and better fitted). They can be had for $250-350 but there are bulk deals such as 5 guns for $1,000 or 2,240rds plus a gun for $500-600.
Well Jean-Paul, you're in a lucky place. Buy them all. There was a time when 03s were fairly cheap and garage sporters were common, 94's were white bread and so on. They are not making the Enfields anymore and they likely never will (although I guess AIA tried) and the new rifles are well...new rifles. Money is becoming worth less and less as they print more and more of it. Electronics has no life span, cars don't last, electric cars especially become totally worthless. In short, there are fewer and fewer things of lasting value.
You make several good points. I may just pick up another case in cosmoline of Russian or Czech SKS rifle, (arsenal refurbished) and maybe a case of Chinese M305’s, (M14’s) which actually use the original American toolings to build exceptional milled receivers, (head spacing is somewhat + - and is safe enough to shoot but sometimes not well spec’d). Those are closer to $650 each though so I better save my pennies. Proof to what you are saying is that 5 years ago you could pick up M305’s for $499 in .308 so they have gone up fast. They also make the same gun in 7.62 x 39 with AK mags for about $750 and they are apparently better fitted and head spaced.
Great video on the 303. Covered a lot of bases and filled in important info. :-)
I am a 303 British die hard, for the nostalgia
The .303 will still stand up against the best of them to this day. Ruger made or makes the #1 in that cal. - a must buy.
Interesting video but I'd like to correct you on a few points. First off, there is no such model of Lee Enfield as the "Lee Speed". "Lee Speed" was stamped on the righthand side of the butt socket of commercial Magazine, Lee Enfield rifles to denote Speed as a patent holder just as Rigby was stamped on the nosecap of some M.L.E. rifles to denote his patent allowing the nosecap to be removed with first having to remove the front sight. It wasn't a model of the rifle, simply a patent stamp. Next the rear sight is correctly called an Express sight. The 215 gr. designation indicates the rifle is chambered for the Mk VI round and shooters will find the rifle's accuracy will suffer firing MkVII (174 gr.) ammunition due to the additional leade in the chamber. The stamps are BP - Birmingham Proof, BV - Viewed stamp which many buyers paid extra for to ensure the rifle met the military standard, NP - Nitro Proofed which over-rode the limitation to firing only cordite. Lastly, BSA doesn't stand for "British Sporting Arms", it's Birmingham Small Arms.
Thanks for those kind words on the "humble" 303."There is no modern firearm that is superior to these" made my day.Incidentally the book " The Maneaters of Tsavo " by Col Patterson only refers to the two shot by him,the vast majority were shot by an American named Remington (there`s nominative determinism for you!) It`s all in a book called "The Iron Snake".
Hi Rupert - thank you! I'm looking for the book already.
I do like that rifle, and the Movie. I read the article You shared with Me on Your original video on this rifle. I have a funny story about a Safari Rifle that belongs to a friend.
My Friend Bryan at work showed Me a picture of a beautiful CZ Mauser He bought in .375 H&H. He saved up gift certificates to pay for most of it.
I asked Him if He was planning to go on a safari.
He said "No, but it sure looks adventurous in My gun cabinet" LOL
Beautiful Rifle Sir, thanks for showing it one last time.
God Bless You Mike
Hi Rick - your friend is so right and so funny hahaha - I had target rifles for awhile; to look at the gun cabinet back then it seemed as if I was an Olympic shooter...but no...they were heavy and just found there way to me...and then left. God Bless.
Very interesting Greener . It is similar to a rifle that I own but mine is a BSA [ Birmingham Small Arms ] . Because these rifles lack the military markings , I believe they were built on new unused surplus actions just prior to , or after World War 1 .
Greener would use their own barrels [or machine and polish military barrels ] and add their own stock and sights , obviously the Express style sight would correspond to the 215 grain bullet ballistics .
The charger bridge has been removed from your rifle and the action wall drilled and tapped, probably to facilitate the fitting of a scope at some time .
Lee Speed rifles were made [ I believe - and I may be wrong ] by BSA and were marked as you pointed out on the right hand side of the receiver until the Speed patent ran out and then they were not marked as such .
There [technically speaking] was never such a thing as a Lee Speed model , it was merely a commercially built sporter , but somehow the evocative name stuck with this wonderful rifle .
Your BSA is a great rifle - as you know. I have a few of these types of rifles left. I'll show them. I hunted for years with a Westley Richards take down - iron sights. Brilliant rifles. Saddens me that I don't have time and/or opportunity to hunt with them more.
Val Kilmer was the actor who carried the Lee Speed in the movie " The Ghost and the Darkness " .
Col Patterson was the real life character involved in this tale and his story is more incredible than the film . Look him up if you get the time .
This is a Sporter-ized version, many companies have taken the bones of original Enfields and remade the platform around those barrels. I don't have much input on this as my two are original, one made in 43 (No4Mk1) and the other in 39 (No5Mk1). All proof marks are there yet they are barely visible as they have seen service and look the part.
That Greener is a Beautiful Enfield
👌 I've just learned so much info on my P14 bsa sporter it has the same proof marks you just showed there awesome video
I'm glad Scott : )
My father went to war with an exact riffle .... and now I own it , after ww2 Canadian soldier were allowed to keep them.
Do you get to use it hunting.
My dad used a Carbine as a SeaBee
Vernon Findlay yess
Love the info you provide, cosmetics are secondary but I'm sure we appreciate it!
Thanks Jonathan
As a kid in the 60's .... 29 $C for a sported 303 lee enfieild .... and today i bought a Tula SKS 1952 for 219 $C
You can also shoot 30-30 through it just fine as well
Yep had him and Val kilmer in it. It was one of my daughters favorite movies when she was 5 she still likes it and bought her self and I a matching set of lt. Peterson's books from a book store in hw. When they were station there.
Great movie and great rifles. Still not much they can't do. I'd take a Lee Speed to Africa any day; a newer budget rifle....not so much.
BSA is British SMall Arms, not sporting, easy mistake. You have two rifles here, very nice at that, but I'll send you a proof mark legend. The unsporterized and apparently unissued one without the prolific stamping is a Canadian build under License, and the the BV(crown1) indicates a Birmingham proofing common on both barrel and receiver. The BP however indicates 'black powder proof only for parabellum pistols' contradicted by the Crowned NP which is a definitive nitro proof mark (smokeless powder) not cordite. Theres so much to every Einfield that I love figuring them out, and dreaming about the provenance as well. Those are absolutely fine rifles, sporting indeed. The Empire scrubbed all but the export mark you see, and an importer often stamps his own serial number (usually deeper with less patina like it appears) and this is usually a roller stamp, a tool, along with most other machining tools in short supply in wartime britain. GOOD NEWS: You don't have a FAKE anything, the quality of the sporterized and reblued one is incredible, and there's likely an answer to all those seemingly odd things! Idk if I can put a link in here but a legend of proof marks is available after typing three w's, a dot, nramuseum (period) org / media / 940944 / proofmarks dot p d f Hope I helped!
Birmingham Small Arms
Sporterized military surplus rifles are a bit of a niche that hold hidden potential. I found a 1903 Rock Island that I bought for $250 that had been someones old hunting rifle. With a little bit of time and a decent amount of money. I was able to restore the gun back to original military specifications. I have a No.4 Mk1 I'm working on right now. So each time I see a good sporter, I have to at the very least, take a good look at it.
Hi Chris - that's a gold mine if you have the smarts, ability and patience. I know people who buy those old Enfield cut down sporters for $125. or $250. and return to military form - some are not even perfectly restored but close - they still get $900. or $1000. I like that. Good on you and the Rock Island 1903!
Just bought a 303 british no 1 mk3 *sporterized with monte carlo synthetic stock and drilled and tapped with 6x bushnell. It has G K I with a crown stamped and 1944 along the no1 mk3 *. Says england on top. Paid 250$. Very nice looking rifle with superb bore and bluing is excellent. Im going to spray paint the stock flat black as it is shiny black right now. Very beautiful rifle which i will keep and never sell as seeing i might not run into a 303 this good looking with such a good bore and blue. From Saskatchewan canada
That's a bargain. The bore condition alone makes is a great buy. I like your idea of toning down the gloss black. Some people buy the Rustoleum flat dark green or tan and paint the stock one flat color from the Rustoleum camo spray products - the ones I've seen look very sharp - especially the camo green. One color usually turns out better than the mixed camo attempts - at least to me. Anyway, no matter what you do - you've got a great rifle and a lasting value.
Yeah man. The flat black looks very good and makes it look new. I was thinking of going camo but now im really set on flat black. I was shooting high at 100yards with ironsights so im just going to keep the 6x bushnell. My bros Ross mk3 hits perfect at 100yards and the recoil is almost none , very nice shooting rifle. The bore is excellent also. Very good buy for the both of us.
I often wondered who supplied the firearms for the film "ghost in the darkness". There was a really nice falling block rifle, a jeffrey i believe that i loved seeing.
The Enfield, the Jeffery (or whatever it was - I'll have to look- I'm sure you're correct) and the double were about right from memory. Nice to see a film where they actually use the right guns - would have been difficult to see Patterson depicted with a Garand, a Model 94 and a Taser.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns
Patterson was an amazing man and the whole tsavo incident was only one amazing chapter in his life. I believe he was involved with the founding of the state of Israel, and had an interesting ww1 also.
I have a older 303 now and im fixing the draws so it needs a stock. I have a extra 303 thats broken barrel so its useless but it has full bottom wood stock and it has 1 hand guard. Im going to add that stock to my hunting 303 and turn it into a mannlicher stock. Theres afew vids on youtube with mannlicher stock 303 brits.
The sights on the 1st rifle will be set for mk6 ammo. From memory it was a 215 grain pill
Thank you Matty!
BSA, Birmingham Small Arms. Fine firearms and motocycles. And their own measuring standards.
Had a BSA identical to the Greener 5 shot mag Express sights stupid (me) sold it, was an outstanding shooter open sights. I have seen ONE not in
.303 but for the 8x50R Austrian by BSA . In India it's called the .315 Indian if I remember correctly and new Rifles based upon the Lee Enfield are made there in that caliber for hunting as the .303 was a military cartridge and not permitted seems India has had that type law for some time.
Very interesting - 8x50R - I was not aware of this. Thank you for writing!
That appears to be an early SHTLE with a later nice fresh barrel made in Feb, 1922...
Thanks Sean - I didn't know that.
Beautiful Enfield. I've been trying to get ahold of one of the "nice" sporters like the ones done by Parker Hale for a good while.
The Parker Hales are so fine. I have one - will show it. I hope you find one.
Gentlemen, is it difficult to export a rifle from Canada to the States? I’m hoping to go to a show on Oct 21 hosted by my military arms society. I could look for you? I have a 41’ FTR, 5 groove barrel PH Deluxe. Maybe I can find another .
Also has the original PH magazine
Never buy an Enfield that is stamped "DP" for drill purpose, they had been pulled from service because of questionable parts. Also most No.1 mk's 1 had black powder barrels. So on the barrel in back of rear sight you want the stamp "HV"for high velocity meaning it accepts modern smokeless powder or cordite.
Thank you Greg!
My guess on the different ammo would be possibly a tracer round for low light followed by ten normal rounds if tracer was on target , for say foxholes and such.
I had no idea such was possible - good thinking!
Thanks. Great information.
What nice sporter. Love the mag cut off.
Wish I had known this 25 years ago when I sold mine.
You wanna buy mine
Great video as usual. The lee-speed type rifles are fantastic, always liked them, but the metford rifling can be eroded by modern powders i believe. The .303 is not as popular as it should be for hunting in Europe or the UK, i think its due to the fact its a rimmed round, it also does not meet the minimum velocity in Scotland for deer, with most heavier rounds.
That is interesting! Please let me know what the minimums are for deer in Scotland.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns
For the larger species of deer, fallow, red deer and sika, 100 grain bullet, 1,750 ft/lbs and muzzle velocity of 2,450 ft/sec. Some say the minimum velocity was deliberately included to make sure the .303 was not used. To keep stalking exclusive. Anyway you can now get 150 grain loads that meet the minimum requirements, but the damage to the round was done.
Factory site on the second one just missing the shroud that comes with the wood no mods just cut down the stock..
In their military days parts from these guns were often swapped and details were not kept. It does'nt matter. If you have one with matching part numbers collectors will pay more. If you don't, dont panic your rifle will fill plates on the table.
Wise words
There was an insert to convert it to 22 I think
Yes indeed - there were Enfields in .22 - work perfectly.
I’ve got a 303 no4 mk1 Long Beach I really can’t tell which one I have beside the making of mk1 there is like a * symbol and it says 1942 and it’s a floating barrel and it says nitro on the barrel
The British exploded a bit of nitro in the barrel to see if it could handle stronger gun powder than cordite. i have BNP on my Rifle which means british nitro proof
Enjoyed your video. I have a late production Lee enfield and would like to restock it. Are there walnut stocks available?
As always your knowledge and expertise intrigues me. I just recently bought a Lee-Enfield and it's got some markings on the side of the barrel that I am unfamiliar with and really cannot make out. Could I send you some pictures of it and maybe if you have time that is could you give me an idea of what exactly I have? And I was always hope all is well and thank you again
Where on the barrel are they located? Also what model do you have? No4 or No3 maybe No1? If you post these things but may he able to help you have f you haven't already found out
I’ve seen a Mk 1 No III chambered in 410
You're right - I had one or two - mod by an arsenal in India if I remember right. Thanks for the reminder.
In your humble opinion what is the main element for accuracy, cartridge, barrel, sights. You may only pick 1
The barrel
I had an Enfield once, a 303 with a 1916 date stamp. Great old rifle but I'm not a collector so it left the safe for something in a popular caliber. I used to see millions of these 303's at gun shows 20 years ago for $125-175... the last one I saw that was in beautiful shape was marked $300 but that was 5 years ago. That market has dried up just like the Mosin market which used to sell for $79 for a rifle and a case of ammo AND all the grease you'd ever want to see! The military surplus rifles of WW I and WW II are about gone these days, sad.
My experience with the 303 British round was that it was slightly milder than the 30-06 but that was the lawyer approved current production ammo which is always weaker than it should be. Older ammo calibers are always "dumbed down" because of the "grey suits in the corner" who obsess over guys who love to use antique firearms. Hornady is about the only American ammo company that makes older caliber ammo that actually performs anywhere near the specs say it should. If you reload, you'll achieve far better results than factory boxed ammo.
Yeah, the 303 is a grand old round to be sure. I've only shot modern 303 with gunpowder, never any loaded with cordite. I wouldn't even know if anyone loads 303 British, 300H&H, or 375H&H with cordite these days and can't think of a reason why you'd want it over current powders.
Great video for a nice old rifle.
Thanks Paul. I'll get some Hornady and give it s try.
Actually, BSA means " Birmingham Small Arms", not British sporting arms.
thanks for your nice videos.
Thank you Brnokhan : )
Thanks for addressing proof marks on these Lee Enfield rifles. I have 2, #4 Mark 1 rifles; one sporterized much like the blonde one you have there. The other is in original military configuration. I enjoy shooting them.
Lasting values - those Enfields; and they seem to work forever. I've had some that had virtually no rifling and they still were minute of deer. Good you have the 2 - they are so inexpensive and not being made anymore.
great show thank you...I have 1914 Lee Enfield 303 with about the same markings however I'm not sure if it's a MK3 or 4... is there perhaps a way I can determine that
Thank you - sometimes there are markings on the left side of the receiver or on the steel band separating the butt stock from the forend. If not - if it is a 3 there is a large bolt head that sticks out - the 4 has a more streamlined bolt head. There are other differences that may be there - or not - depending on changes that might have been made. Both are great - you can't miss. : )
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Thank you for your replying Ill check it .
Thanks for the info I going get my & look my has the magazine like the last one
Glad you have one of these James.
Thanks
If okay to ask how much does something go for like this ?
What about Sussex stamp
Mine is stamped Enfield 1919 could that be the year or the model.
Hi Ronald - I would think that is the year. Cheers
The cut off was used In training purposes!!!!!
My BSA number 3 mark lll* 1941 has two unusual markings: under the bayonet lug there is a clear "5" stamped, the letter is about 2.5 mm to 3 mm. And on top of the chamber there is a "R124_8" the 4th letter is not visible due to scope mounting taps. The serial number is 76643, found on the right side of the chamber and the fore end of the stock. Does anyone have any idea what it could mean?
Hi Johan, I spoke to my Lee Enfield collector friend and he said the "5" is usually an "S" - the letter ; and stands for Savage. Savage supplied many parts including complete rifles and many have British proof marks since the armory/BSA was in UK - but any Lee might have "S" parts - even bayonets. Hope this helps and I'll keep listening for more information. All the best.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns thanks, this is usefull info. I love my Lee Enfield. Ammo expense is getting to be a bit of a problem, reloads all the way.
Great and unique stuff
I had a LeFever that had British proof marks. If only that gun could talk.
Yes - that is pretty amazing.
Love your channel! I have a sporterized Enfield 303 british, it is missing a bolt head can I just get a bolt are they all compatible? I did buy a bolt head but the threads didn't match.
Hi cc - they do differ from the Mark IV to III and so on. Plenty of Enfield bolt heads around though - just check online and maybe post WTB. A headspace gauge is a good idea - you can Google that but you likely know already. Numrich usually has - but there are many smaller gun parts companies and individuals that have boxes of those bolt heads. Good luck!
My said England on top & 1918 under the bolt
Hi James - among the best.
please help me, I found a 1942 BPN .303 Enfield with a small plan crown above it serial number P3261, I have no idea what model this is and what I should pay for it can you please help.. Thanks
Hello! The BNP stands for British Nitro Proof - and the crown should be for the king of England at the time - King George VI - the rifle might have "rex" on it somewhere near the crown - which means King. Which is why the T Rex is the king of dinosaurs - or used to be before bigger ones were found. Hope this helps.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns you should have a better way to spend your time, but if it makes you laugh.. so petty
Birmingham small arms .
great chanal thank you
Btw.."BSA" stands for Birmingham small arms
Thank you. For a few years I bought every BSA I came across. Even the .22s they offered and their air rifles as well.
Well, let me thank you for doing such a great job of educating people on firearms history and collecting. We in Czech republic have quite a friendly gun laws but people in some countries have it really hard to get into firearms, so seeing high quality video content helps a lot. ( and you should show some more czech guns on the chanel! Check out the ZKR 551, that is the most beautiful sporting revolver ever, but they are getting quite scarce even back here ...)
Hello Jakub - the Czech Republic makes amazing firearms and weaponry - astonishing nation and people - as you know. The CZ/BRNO rifles are incredible - especially in this day and age. I will keep looking for a ZKR 551 - thanks for the suggestion. I will show more guns from your great country for sure! Thank you and take care.
And what does those kind of Chinese letters mean? There are on the left side of a gun
lil peace of cordite snuck its way into a cigarette and a funny tradition was borne! lol a fun way to mess with that guy who always wants to bum a smoke back in the 1950s lol as time went on manufactures would go on to produce loud cigarette loads that wer alot more explosive than the cordite was..they sold them out the back of the boys life magazines..lol they would blow your cigarette to smithereens! i know because i got both my parents multiple times!
Ha! Cordite smokes!
It's called a Lee Enfield. Or just a "303". An Enfield is a muzzleloader.
Thanks Arthur - I had a couple of 1853 Enfields - so great and quite interesting to shoot. Maybe I have one left in the vault somewhere. I'm not exactly sure why but I drifted from the black powder guns - I still have a few left of other makes. I should get back to them. The Enfield arsenal is one of those remarkable places; although I guess now closed. Thanks again for the note.
BSA = Birmingham Small Arms
Talking for 20 min and he didn't say anything
I bet you can t tell me how many different model's they were!!!!!????,
About 43 some made in India as well as those discussed above
Overbuilt guns.
I guess they all are to some extent - the pressures are daunting.
Very very slow narrative
Sorry about that; just my nature I guess.
have a P14 need a barrel for it any help would be great , on wait list at cimmerons site