Worth mentioning that if you're using Dragon's Fury in a mission vs. Pyrobots, they can and will airblast you to the point where the weapon is nearly useless.
MvM taught me that airblast works on ALL projectiles, not just the usual explosives. Was scratching my head for a good while the first time I got suicide by Dragon's Fury. Also may have accidentally killed more than a few teammates while running huntsman sniper...
Yeah, honestly when they show up just let your heavies and engineer deal with it. Dragons fury is fun in mvm but when they show up just reposition or something
People don't bitch about uber farming on medic or snipers explosive headshot being able to fucking solo bigrock because those take "skill" Yeah right lol, have more than a couple hours and you can do both semi-consistently. But pyro has an item that can completely take small robots out of the equation, literally this weapon makes solo queue tours actually doable consistently on pyro when you have to play with randos, and people complain about it being "boring" that's literally all they can say. Let people play how they want and bitching that someone is taking your precious 125 damage on the scout spam ooh so bad.
I will say this about the scorch shot, it can serve as an emergency "get the bomb into a pit or away from the hole" tool when you are using the phlog (as the phlog doesnt come with airblast). Those few extra seconds of stalling can make all the difference!
I heard that the scorch shot isn’t that annoying in MVM if you don’t upgrade it. The area denial burst splash damage can be helpful against a group of bots from far away.
You can also get mmph with it on groups you aren't confident with jumping to or even peeking, like crit heavies, if you ream doesn't destroy them in a second
Pyro already has plenty of W's without resorting to a weapon that actively fucks over teammates using hit-on-kill benefits and is incredibly boring to play with Best tank damage, great giant damage with the DF
Still don’t get why people dislike the gas passer. It’s a good weapon, no reason to not use it (not factoring in vote kick) and if you play MvM Mann-Up for Australium, it just makes the gambling go a lot faster.
As an Engineer main, I have absolutely no issue with gas, frees up my Sentry to focus on more important targets, as opposed to the like, 20 small Scouts that just spawned.
its extremely easy to use and the 2 tour pyro on your team that died 28 times in the mission could match the damage of your beggars conch soldier with 500 tours because of the gas passer, while other really powerful options like the scottish resistance require game sense, and explosive headshots at least require skill. high tours dislike the dogshit pyro matching their damage or MORE because of the gas passer ive never played mvm so idc about it
@@Awnalrawashdeh Anytime I hear any gas passer hater use that as an argument, I just play the Peter Griffin "OH MY GOD WHO THE H*LL CARES" over the mic in game.
This videos are really high quality and entertaining. keep it up. It would be nice if you put up all the rankings at the end so we can remember how each weapon places, and maybe add some closing thoughts too.
Adding a big list at the end was actually in the plans at first, I just completely forgot to do so and didn't realize I forgot them until the Pyro tier list. Didn't figure it was worth re-rendering everything for, but I agree it would have been nice. Appreciate the kind words and advice :)
Gas passer hate always struck me as stupid, it's not like you're the robots fighting against it. It's isn't that big of an "I win" button anyways since there can be times where you're stuck on cooldown(especially in the early waves).
The problem is that it leaves very little to do for your other teammates. If a good pyro is using it, the rest of the team can just go AFK and still win
Before I had the Gas Passer I'd always use the Scorch Shot (at least when I played boot camp) and no one complained. Being able to slow down if not stall giants seemed like a good enough reason to use and upgrade it.
I can imagine the Scorch Shot can be annoying if the person just uses it as a long-range weapon. With a lot of the knockback weapons, the issue is more *not* knocking back enemies, which is easy to do by switching to Primary. PS Generally, there are better ways to deal with giants with decently skilled teammates.
If you don’t spam it non stop and you don’t upgrade it, the weapon isn’t that annoying to your team. However, one time I was playing huntsman sniper and I had a lot of trouble hitting headshots because the scorch shot pyro knocked back every giant he saw, and never used the flamethrower.
@@nicolasrage1104 I was gonna say, someone who spams that or airblast can eat a fat one (I'm only partially sorry to genuinely good pyros who use them with moderation). Look, I get it, keeping them pushed away is great, especially if they're close to planting the bomb, but as Weezy said in a later video: "it's better to just kill them than to play a game of hot potato" Spamming one of the two does all the following: >Messes with Demo's timing for his stickies and reduces their subsequent damage >Forces Heavy to either push up aggressively or put up with damage falloff (which is the last thing he wants from a team mate) >Throws hitboxes off for Spy to land backstabs (yes Spy is very niche, but in niche moments he can be a godsend) and most likely make him pull aggro by accident the moment his disguise drops >(Potentially) makes Scout miss his Mad Milk on crucial targets, thus wasting one of the extremely valuable resources he provides to the team (money collecting, aggro pulling, heals with milk, and mini-crits on giants with the FoW) >Makes Sniper's day a living hell (Sniper is WAY more viable than Gas can ever be because of Ex. Headshots and Hitman's Heatmaker; change my mind ☕) >Causes less bots to take less damage from Soldier's rockets >Medic....ehhh I can't think of anything >Pushes bots out of Engi's sentry range (not including the wrangler), thus preventing them from taking insane single-target damage. In addition, if an idiot Pyro spams airblast on a sentry buster, he could very well push a detonating buster up and INTO the engi's path and indirectly kill him (YES, this is real, and it's happened to me TWICE) and his sentry if he picked it up >Prevents Pyro from optimally using his flamethrower As you can see, my friends, aside from Medic, EVERYBODY loses out on something with knockback spamming. And yes, this all applies to heavy's knockback rage upgrade too (and that, secretly, also cuts his firing speed in half, neutering firing speed upgrades). I might sound like a Tacoboi right now, but there is just about nothing about spamming airblast and scorch shots that benefits the team AT. ALL. I mean hell, why use the Scorch Shot when you can use a can of "insta-hell-on-earth"? Why spam airblast when the best primaries Pyro has either heavily penalize airblast or don't have it at all in exchange for FREE CRITS? Or, on certain missions/expert mvm, why not just go 2nd or 3rd heavy and have genuinely good mid-range DPS potential and leave swarm killing to either bullet penetration or your sniper's ex. headshots (especially if he's good with his aim)? Yes, stalling and slowing down giants can be a godsend for a team being overwhelmed, but the moment you do that at almost every moment you are alive, the rest of your team, Tacobois or regular players, WILL wanna rip your head off. And yes, I am pretty salty because as an Engi main, very few things have made me as mad as when on a wave 666 match, I picked up my sentry from a distance, only to hear the *WOOSH* and suddenly see the detonating buster fill my entire screen before I can react. My first ever time I typed in chat "[Player name], I genuinely hate you right now." Sure, with a good team that's chill and doesn't mind/plays around you, scorch shot away, have fun juggling like a circus performer. I mean hell, Soundsmith showed that if your friends put up with enough of your BS, you can just Trolldier your way through a game of mvm. I wouldn't be surprised if a team basicslly five-mans Wave 666 with someone just A-posing as a heavy, ominously watching the bots like he's Bearded Expense in his natural habitat. But when people wanna genuinely play, get loot and/or get better at a certain class, do you really think it'd be fun if they Had to put up with someone else spamming knockbacks? TL;DR - From my experience, *FUCK ALL KNOCKBACK MECHANICS.* Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
@@thomasmurrell9832 The more I’ve played MVM the more I’ve realized that knockback mechanics are overrated. Back in the early days of MVM everyone was told to use knockback weapons to reset the bomb and protect the pit from bomb carriers, so some players still have that mindset. However, it seems that killing the robots before they can get behind you is a much better strategy. When I play MVM I do not brainlessly spam knockback weapons, but sometimes I will use the Scorch Shot to tag enemy robots from far away from me, just so I can light a cluster of robots on fire (which can also safely charge the MMPH meter). I’ve tested this out a bit and I noticed that if I aim the flare at the robot’s chest, they won’t be knocked back, so when I use the Scorch Shot in MVM: 1. I don’t use it as often as my flamethrower, 2. I don’t spam it endlessly, 3. I make sure that the projectile doesn’t deal knockback to the robots. I mostly use the detonator or flare gun, but sometimes I like to change things up and I’ll use the Scorch Shot. It’s also a decent mobility tool, so I feel like if you use it correctly by avoiding the knockback, and you don’t rely on it to deal damage, it can be a decent choice.
@@nicolasrage1104 If you want to set things on fire from a distance, try the flare gun. It has no knockback, so none if thoss debuffs of knockback, and it does much better damage. Heck, uograde jt and suddenly you're a diet soldier. See the MVM subclass video.
I think it really depends on the map and enemy team though. Phlog and Backburner are insane in smaller maps (with places like vent ducts) with corners where they can ambush other players. Soldier and Demo cannot risk using their primary without suiciding
I noticed one error in the video, the phlog doesn't actually have the highest sustained anti-tank dps, that's actually where the Dragon's fury shines, the phlog is still better everywhere else though.
ruclips.net/video/veq48I6B4UI/видео.html You have it backwards. Phlog is definitely better vs. tanks, as long as you understand about shooting the tank at specific angles to maximize damage, and the DF is better everywhere else.
@MajorGalah that's the issue, you have to go out of your way to buy crit canteens or have a kritzkrieg medic, or you could jsut use the phlog for free crits
I’m fine with it’s placement but the dragons fury is pretty busted against tanks and giants (at least when it has crits) because of the way it’s bonus damage works it does 225 with a crit and that’s without upgrades!
@MajorGalah gas passer for the crowd control Dragons fury for the single target damage Powerjack for the mobility you lose by not equipping the detonator You are all covered now, no need to worry, you just need to use your brain this time
@@duncanchillake8024 tbf there's really no class or playstyle in this game that requires much brainpower. this is not a hard game, and certainly not one people in other communities take seriously competitively or cooperatively
@@realchiknuggets aside from wave 666, you might be correct. Unlike the base game, once you learn what to do and your class role, MvM tends to become a cakewalk (unless you decide to experiment)
The gas passer has a nerf not listed in the stats. It will half your team size if you use it. I don't know why, but half the team will sit in spawn. Maybe it disables their movement keys. I also heard that the Pyro's respawn beacon has a bug with this weapon equipped, and won't show up after he tries to throw it on the giant hue long heater heavy.
4:00 "then you're dodging more bullets than the robots that you're knocking into the air" Just like those bullets, the joke missed the first time but I when I got it I realised how clever it is.
Give the Volcano Fragment an upgrade that gives it +20% damage and guaranteed crits on burning targets. There, now it's broken. Hey man, if Chuck Greene can take a helicopter down with a toy spitball gun, those pebbles might be able to do some serious damage.
@@cdsatcher Axtinquisher only deals mini crit and extinquish the enemy insantly, if you do what this guy says you will just KEEP igniting them over and over again with guaranteed crits which MIGHT be helpful dealing with giant medics or steel gauntlet heavies. But yeah, just throw a gas can at them and watch 'em explode
Funfact:you can out damage a heavy with the back Bruner. and you will be the 2nd highest consistent damage source agents gaints after crit Scottishresistance demo in waves with a lot of giants you can do ridiculously high damage without needing crit canteens/kritz medic
The dragons fury is absolute god tier at recharging the gas passer. Increasing you damage only takes 1, 2, 3 shots just to refill the bar. So basically you acquire crowd control (that being a little bit slower).
1:25 if your team is really good at killing bots quickly the back scratcher can really help build uber during downtime since med will have every other person to max really quickly more than likely.
I dunno, I'd slap the Scorchshot into B since that constant hitstun is good for allowing Heavies to deal with the bigger issues trying to bum-rush the bomb or just general progression halting for the bots. The Knockback problem does not really exist if the target is stuck to a wall forever
Scorch Shot can also kinda do a similar thing to the Loose Cannon, But worse. Hold back bots before they spawn in, That way you can build up another stickytrap with your demo, or get an Uber for your medic
you said that the fun factor wasnt the reason the gas is in S, but i would like to say that either absolutely demolishing a whole group of smaller robots or immediately killing like 5 medics with one click of m1 is just immensely satisfying.. also worth noting that 99% of gas passer utility comes from the "explode on ignite" stat. I've been using phlog + gas for a while now and I'm glad that im using somewhat of a meta. i had no idea phlog taunt cancelling was a thing.. overall great video
While it is good at that, stalling hordes of robots is not generally that good. This just means that more robots spawn, and if/when you have to stop stalling them there's even more robots to over-run your defense. As a rule, the team should be aiming to kill them roughly as fast as they come out.
I really don't understand the hate for the Gas Passer. I don't play pyro in MVM, but when you get the sweaty tryhards with 400+ tours threatening to kick you out for using it because "it's too easy" but then also doing the same if you pick any other even slightly sub-optimal weapon (or class in some cases), I just don't understand it.
I played a lot of boot camp games in manhattan as pyro with backburner bc i dont have the phlog and the crits with backburner are just pure asmr especially against giants, what i like to do in early to mid games is get uber canteens in case the robots start to target me and health on kill for more survability with ammo capacity and damage upgrade
I honestly think that you are underestimating the Axtingusher. It can turn those pesky spies into your personal "Speed Boost Canteen" due to Axtingusher Mini-Crits being able to OHK Spies. Which the speed is only gained on kill (I think)
The third degree should be A tier for the fact that you can mass kill every single small medic connected to a giant robot without having to attack them
The Dragon’s Fury is also great against tanks and giants. You’ll get the full benefit of the fire rate increase while doing stupid amounts of burst damage. Of course, the Phlog still wins for being able to destroy tanks and giants while also having excellent trash-killing abilities. Regardless, a good MvM Pyro with The Dragon’s Fury is not to be underestimated.
The flame thrower, one or the most used weapons by me for the simple reason airblast, inexperienced players will spam it non stop, but an experienced player like myself, this is down right amazing, I don't care if you disagree this is my opinion for example: 1- Airblast can push away projectiles, this makes it amazing for crit projectile robots such as the sir nukes a lot and the minigun crit rocket, you can reflect them to deal major damage that sometimes outdamages pretty much anything, without the use of crit canteens. If you do miss the reflect, you can save your team, if your team doesn't get resistances, this is amazing as it causes all damage to be avoided, helping your team. 2- Airblasting robots is very effective (if used on an experienced pyro in mvm) you can reset the bomb by pushing robots into the pit on both the maps in two cities, this is also an insta kill meaning it does more damage than ANYTHING, pushing half health bosses into the pit when they get there is great as it totally stops them in their tracks, pushing the sentry buster away from a sentry when your engi isn't there could save you the round, pushing bomb carries back is also amazing as it disables the ability for them to deploy a bomb (exception being tank obviously), gathering all bots into one big pile will be useful for soldier. It doesn't matter of you say no, it's true, if a experienced pyro does this to help you shouldn't kick them or call them slurs. Before you all get toxic and salty, remember to read everything I said and make sense of it, of course this all depends on the Pyro's skill level and they shouldn't do it if they suck at pyro, but a pro mvm pyro should not be associated with a noob 0 tour pyro.
I agree with pretty much all of this list but a few things. Scorch shot is indeed annoying for sniper or in general and doesn’t do a ton of damage on small bots BUT, it’s damage is actually ok against giants (if you don’t want to push forward) not to mention you push the giants back into holes with it from afar, i’d say it’s not even close to d-tier and it’s more so closer to B-tier, though this one is more opinion based since it’s kind of hard to gauge this weapons use besides knockback and singular damage, but I’d say it’s fine on the list as is, just giving insight Detonator should be the same with Scorch shot, so it will move relative to it. Mainly because you will ONLY use it for jumping and the damage you sustain by jumping with it can make the difference between living and becoming steak. And no, using it as a damage tool is a waste of time, at best you get 30 damage per shot AS A MINI CRIT (minus after burn) I disagree with the third degree, it’s d tier, it’s ONLY use is against robot medics, and you need a crit to one shot without it popping it’s Uber, you can do more damage AND have a higher probability surviving with a flamethrower then going into melee range just to have a chance to kill the medics. It’s VERY situational and not worth using honestly. Heck I’d pick using a flare gun and shoot the medics from range then using a MELEE weapon. Same goes with the home wrecker, the purpose of the weapon barely shines and the increased building damage does NOTHING in this game mode, this also should be D tier Otherwise, I agree with the list, I mained pyro in MvM for 80% of my playtime in said game mode and all your points are spot on (besides the third degree)
9:53 correction: one-shots ALMOST every group of robots in the game, there are gigats (we dont count those) and there are egineers with 500hp (i think it doesnt matter cuz its support but it still doesnt one shot everything)
i actually do want to add 1 note to the scorch shot that makes it the reason i use it in 1 situation that always comes up on a full tour and is always at least amusing cheesing sir nukes-alot. yeah i know it's easier to just cheese him with airblast, but it's all the more insulting to do it with the 2nd worst flare option. is it useful; no. is it annoying to your team; sometimes. is it fun it to dunk on that one miniboss and giants at the 2nd gate; hell yeah!
My Pyro MVM loadout: Primary: Stock Flamethrower Reason: I don't spam the f*ck out of airblast like those other mongoons. I only use it when needed, especially when there's incoming projectile spam. I cannot tell you how many times airblast saved my team from that. Also, get a Kritz med on your back, and you can make the Stock Flamethrower a makeshift Phlog. Secondary: Flare Gun Reason: Although Gas does ABSURDLY high damage numbers, I don't want to be hogging all the DPS to myself (that's called being selfish), so why risk getting called a retard when you can just spam the living hell out of flares and get crits safely without having to be called a racial slur? Melee: Powerjack Reason: Yes, as stated in your video, this stacked with movement speed upgrades does wonders for your survivability against Snipers.
honestly youre underrating the scorch shot. ive found if you get enough firing speed and reload something you can do is use it to just straight up bully robots into a corner and hold them there, it can be more useful than you might expect. also the dragons fury actually has higher tank DPS than the phlog even with mmph if you use crit canteens
"hard to not play as a beginner every time you play" even for an "expert" its very tempting playing him, bc most of the time the team cant do stuff and he is just carrying with eas (with pits and phlog)
A reload upgraded scorch shot can completely nullify and giant who takes knock back, you're too far to Target and they're stuck to the wall and whittled away by minicrit flares
except stalling giants is a bad idea. more time spent killing giants = more time for next robots, busters and support to spawn. even worse if you do this on giants who really need to be killed quickly like giant meds or giant black box soldiers. also pinning them to the wall fucks over spy.
Or you could dish out 200 DPS to that giant, and let your team do way more damage than any single player could to him instead of stalling the game and essentially waiting until the next subwave arrives and wrecks you.
I've saved my team multiple times with airblasting bomb into pit I usually only airblast wen a bots near a pit or the bot is near the bomb point also its pretty funny to kill a bunch of crit soldiers with reflected projectiles. Usually I'll use phlog/dragons fury when there's a tank and stock for everything else.
Fun little fact. I did a funny little thing where I gave myself crits, Uber, and fastest firing speed possible, and played by myself as pyro on wave 666. The shotgun actually did better than the flamethrower did for tanks. You need all the cheats possible to make shotguns better than the damn phlog.
Scout too, Crit-A-Cola - Offensive Bonk Atomic Smash - Defensive Mad Milk - Support I guess Heavy's lunchbox items too, but they all get outclassed by the Sandvich most of the time...
I’m fine with the current Gas Passer, but it they were to balance it out, I would make it so that the puddle, instead of exploding, creates a lasting pool of napalm which deals constant Fire and Afterburn damage to any Robots walking through it. Turns it from a Nuke to an Area Denial tool.
As a pyro main I try not to use the gaspasser to much, only when we're geting swarmed and even then I get just 2 ticks of the recharge time on it so I physically can't spam it
Worth noting, on expert airblast is significantly more useful in pugs and its almost impossible to actually get around to the backs of enemies So I'd say this Primary: For Rotten take phlog, theres no pits for airblasts For Mannworks take Backburner, it's too easy not to For Decoy take Dragons fury, it kills meds faster for when your sniper or demo, or lack, fails you and airblasting into the trench is good for stability. For coaltown Backburner, its easier to get behind since the sheds in a nice spot to flank, the air blast can come in clutch due to those 2 pits For Mannworks stick to phlog, there isn't any real resets and the bombsite doesn't serve well for airblasting like the decoy trench Ofc, this is just pug advice for people desperate to play Pyro. the real expert advice is don't play Pyro if there isn't a tank, just go heavy if you want damage.
Honestly I really think you should've given the Dragon's Fury A tier, maybe even s tier. This thing's damage is insane, it shreds through giants and tanks with a level of effectiveness slightly below the phlog. And you also get air blast for last-ditch boom saves and preventing dangerous bots from rolling your team. It basically combines the best attributes from the phlog and the stock flamethrower. I don't it's quite as good as the phlog, but I definitely think it's better than the backburner
I don’t really get why the scorch shot is so low. I use it all the time unless I have a sniper, and it lets me lock big bots into corners from a distance. I also just really dislike the gas passer, so it does the AoE reasonably well.
In all fairness, Pyro's innate fire resistance makes his axe a little better than the shovel, same for the other melee weapons. Even demoknight had better think twice about engaging a giant pyro or pyro wave trusting in his health on kill and crazy damage--or he can blow several canteen's worth of credits to get fire resistance. But Pyro can get in safely, start a chopping, and honestly? Since robots tend to favor fighting the players closest to them when they spawn, a low damage unkillable tank build is surprisingly useful in mvm I find.
i dont think the thermal thruster is better than scorch shot themal thruster just gives you vertical mobility and the scorch shot can act as a mini airblast when you are using phlog
Scorch shot is def better but man it's so annoying to play with from a team mate perspective. Knockback is pretty much useless with a competent scout w/ milk and/or soldier with specialist. It's the only secondary I use besides gas because like u said it's nice being able to knock bombs into insta-kill pits and keep bots away from the bomb site for a few extra seconds.
I think airblast is underrated. If you’re a noob and get in the way with it that’s one thing, but the ability to bomb reset, separate Uber medics from their patients so you team can damage said patients, knock the bomb backwards, delay capping enemies for long enough to kill them or your team to get in position to help, and send crit rockets and pills back at enemies, simultaneously damaging them and giving your team less to worry about, those things just cannot be ignored
resetting the bomb means your team was already missplaying anyway. and separating uber meds from their patients is never gonna trump just killing them before they ever get the chance to pop. reflecting rocket is extremely dangerous in latter wave because you cant read mind and wont know evne in the best of case if any of your team will get in the way.
@@Teixas666 you know reflected rockets can’t damage Allies right? And obviously if you need to separate the Uber meds from their patients they’ve already been set off so your initial plan of killing them didn’t work. And let’s be real, while in Mann up people tend to play decent, how often do casual players not ‘misplay’? And this is esp true in wave 666 where there is no Mann up alternative.
@@mylifewithautism3958 If a team can't manage to kill the uber medic then they sure as hell won't be able to kill the patient. And speaking of casual misplays, what's stopping the Pyro from messing up? I've also had plenty of games go awry in boot camp because a Pyro can't let go of M2. At least when other classes done goof they don't singlehandily screw up the rest of the team.
The gas passer is just superior, I decided to give it a try after this video and the second game I played I won, having the second highest damage pretty close behind some demo main, and it was my first attempt!
anyone seen what metro malice does when tanks spawn as its hell because for some reason the tank thinks it's at the end of its course so it's impossible until opens gate b as it spawns there
how mvm high tours see low tour pyros : He has no rules , No boundaries he doesnt flinch a torture human trafficing or g3n0c1d3... he is not loyal to a flag or a country...
I completely disagree with your regards on air blast in expert mode air blast is fundamental to keeping back that bomb and getting resets so I say the one with the most air blast, which is stock, is s tiered over the flog
There is three types of airblast pyros 1. They dont know m1 exists 2. They try to reset the bomb then die before they can get it in the pit after air blasting a giant all the way there 3. They get maximum knock back and see how many people they can kill with a single sentry buster. Surprisingly you dont get kicked for it as much as you think.
Couple of things: -the backscratcher is used to take out individual uber medics without having them pop -shotguns have one specific use case, for giant knights - they only show up in early game, when the cash isn't there for damage upgrades yet -the homewrecker is made completely irrelevant by the neon - neon does more damage + has guaranteed instant kill scenarios, which the homewrecker doesn't have -The scorch shot has an extra bad synergy from heavy, because heavy's main source of damage is ramp-up -One thing to note about the scorch shot is that it doesn't provide a rocket jump like the detonator, no explosions occur when you shoot it on the ground. As a result of this, jumps from the scorch shot give you a lot of momentum you can't use to air strafe, which makes a ton of otherwise very easy jumps very awkward. On top of that, it doesn't break the 256 hammer units barrier in terms of height, which is usually a reference value for upper areas on TF2 maps -The only use I see for the flare gun is killing support snipers in 2 hits instead of 3 with the detonator -third degree is the best weapon to use when relevant. Takes out uber medics & you still have jumps from detonator -stock takes away phlog crits and replaces it with a temporary inability to deal damage, where's the benefit in airblasting things when you can just a+d spam bodyblock / circle strafe with basically permanent crits from phlog -the dragon's fury has much lower dps than you think. It really pales in comparison to a phlog pyro who knows when to crit & cancel on the missions he plays. + its tank damage sucks dick. You lose a ton of piercing efficiency with it as well, which is probably pyro's best strength for doing damage. -The backburner's main strength relies on having a reliable enough distraction who understands aggro priority. Not only that, it also severely restrict your movement and approaches compared to phlog -gas? mvm's most powerful weapon? Play 2 man missions, you'll be surprised at just how inefficient it is. I think this is the biggest one you need to reexamine. There is nothing gas does the phlog can't already do very well. And most importantly, you lose out on the ability to jump, which really really sucks on a class who gets the most benefit from those (phlog cancels). On top of that, gas tears a massive $400 hole in your early game econ, which is your starting money on the very large majority of missions. The detonator is useful free of charge, it doesn't force you to buy anything w1, so you can buy health on kill, which pyro's actual strongest asset, along with having natural access to infinitely piercing flames free of charge. -this isn't a mvm tier list, it only applies on 4 out of the 30 missions the gamemode has to offer if it's 2c only. I didn't have much else to say, but I think this video could gain a lot if you tried the top of the end difficult challenges mvm has to offer, to see for yourself what the most effective known tactics look like. Play missions with just 2 people - Floro#8323 on discord if you want to play those. Source: I've completed a large amount of missions with 2 people, all of them with Pyro, without refunds - the runs have video proof, all of which I've uploaded. Talk to me if you want to take your mvm game to the next level, on any class. Down for collab work / videos too If you don't want to, I at least hope the feedback was helpful -A mvm pyro specialist
To anyone who thinks this man is full of himself, ask him for the screenshot of a damage race he and I did with me using gas and him using detonator. He beat me, by a lot.
I'm curious about why you don't like the Dragon's Fury, and how much you've actually used it. I suspect you just haven't taken the time to understand it due to having such a boner for the Phlog. Its tank damage is not actually terrible, ending up about the same as if you just used the Phlog and aimed straight into the tank. Definitely not great compared to a properly used Phlog, but honestly still very good compared to other classes, and would still get the job done just fine in most cases. Its damage is also incredible in skilled hands. I've played hundreds of adv/expert missions, and some of the highest damage totals I've ever seen, not counting Heavies with kritz meds, were from DF Pyros. And what's this bit about losing piercing efficiency with the Dragon's Fury? That's the opposite of the truth; it's the Phlog that suffers much more from this, comparatively. The Phlog suffers from a full 50% damage falloff at the end of its range (including crits). The Dragon's Fury, meanwhile, only has 10% falloff at max range. (To be fair, the DF does also ramp up to 120% at point blank range. 90% of base damage is 75% of the maximum of 120%, so you could argue that in effect it basically has 25% falloff.) Still, that's only half the falloff of the other flame throwers. Everything in that line gets hit for at least 90% of base damage, or 75% of max ramped-up damage. If you think piercing efficiency is Pyro's best strength for doing damage, you might want to give the Dragon's Fury another look, because it does better piercing damage than any other flame thrower. You also don't have to worry about only a few flame particles hitting a robot, either--a hit is a hit. If the very edge of that fireball just grazes the edge of a robot's hitbox, it still does all the damage. In addition to that, once you upgrade damage you can reliably two-shot uber meds with no real risk of popping them, and you can do that without having to get in melee range. Also, crit & cancel might not be quite as good as you seem to think it is, for one simple reason: you have to put your Phlog away for a certain amount of time in order to set it up. So while you certainly gain some damage from the extra time with crits, you are losing at least some of that damage while you switch to the detonator, jump, and switch back to your Phlog.
Flare gun is surprisingly good damage, tt is good for mobility. I'd say the flare gun since you're prob not concerned with mobility that much in mvm imo. And the Flamethrower is better than the dragon's fury in my opinion too, since the df focuses on single target damage whereas you can hit more enemies with stock
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Worth mentioning that if you're using Dragon's Fury in a mission vs. Pyrobots, they can and will airblast you to the point where the weapon is nearly useless.
MvM taught me that airblast works on ALL projectiles, not just the usual explosives. Was scratching my head for a good while the first time I got suicide by Dragon's Fury.
Also may have accidentally killed more than a few teammates while running huntsman sniper...
Yeah, honestly when they show up just let your heavies and engineer deal with it. Dragons fury is fun in mvm but when they show up just reposition or something
Just counter spell there reflect smh
I like how they added your other rankings on the tacobot site except this one because of gas passer
Literally every one of his videos are on their site except this one and the gas passer hate one.
Tacobot is Pathetic. XD
Ngl tacobot needs to be abolished
You make one mistake and you’re the equivalent to a nazi💀
Classic pyro hate club
People don't bitch about uber farming on medic or snipers explosive headshot being able to fucking solo bigrock because those take "skill"
Yeah right lol, have more than a couple hours and you can do both semi-consistently.
But pyro has an item that can completely take small robots out of the equation, literally this weapon makes solo queue tours actually doable consistently on pyro when you have to play with randos, and people complain about it being "boring" that's literally all they can say.
Let people play how they want and bitching that someone is taking your precious 125 damage on the scout spam ooh so bad.
I will say this about the scorch shot, it can serve as an emergency "get the bomb into a pit or away from the hole" tool when you are using the phlog (as the phlog doesnt come with airblast).
Those few extra seconds of stalling can make all the difference!
Not to mention it’s the only long-range pushing tool Pyro has for Ubers.
I heard that the scorch shot isn’t that annoying in MVM if you don’t upgrade it. The area denial burst splash damage can be helpful against a group of bots from far away.
You can do the same with your airblast. I mostly use Flare Gun to deal good damage to giant heavies and snipers.
@@mrbabbles5989 you missed the when using the phlog part
You can also get mmph with it on groups you aren't confident with jumping to or even peeking, like crit heavies, if you ream doesn't destroy them in a second
“Engi’s life giving pet rock.”
Okay, I am going to refer to the dispenser as that from now on
People really can't handle Pyro getting any sort of W, can they?
Pyro already has plenty of W's without resorting to a weapon that actively fucks over teammates using hit-on-kill benefits and is incredibly boring to play with
Best tank damage, great giant damage with the DF
@@radial8955 yeah but they wont let the pyros use those w's
@@Eivissabelle who wont? Every mvm player I have met has had zero problem with using the phlog and/or dragons fury
@@radial8955 you must be getting lucky, every time i even look at pyro they threaten to kick me
friend of mine got kicked for using gas passer to win tours faster
Good video. Wasn't expecting you to talk about phlog cancels. Hope this video gets the attention it deserves.
You can thank me for him talking about that lol. I probably made him the most aware of it.
@@XplosiveAction that sounds pretentious af lmao
@@ProfessorCat-lf1tm parasocial mfs when youtuber says thing
Still don’t get why people dislike the gas passer. It’s a good weapon, no reason to not use it (not factoring in vote kick) and if you play MvM Mann-Up for Australium, it just makes the gambling go a lot faster.
As an Engineer main, I have absolutely no issue with gas, frees up my Sentry to focus on more important targets, as opposed to the like, 20 small Scouts that just spawned.
its extremely easy to use and the 2 tour pyro on your team that died 28 times in the mission could match the damage of your beggars conch soldier with 500 tours because of the gas passer, while other really powerful options like the scottish resistance require game sense, and explosive headshots at least require skill. high tours dislike the dogshit pyro matching their damage or MORE because of the gas passer
ive never played mvm so idc about it
@@Awnalrawashdeh so its about ego rather than an actual issue
@@pancakes8816 yeah pretty much
@@Awnalrawashdeh Anytime I hear any gas passer hater use that as an argument, I just play the Peter Griffin "OH MY GOD WHO THE H*LL CARES" over the mic in game.
This videos are really high quality and entertaining. keep it up. It would be nice if you put up all the rankings at the end so we can remember how each weapon places, and maybe add some closing thoughts too.
Adding a big list at the end was actually in the plans at first, I just completely forgot to do so and didn't realize I forgot them until the Pyro tier list. Didn't figure it was worth re-rendering everything for, but I agree it would have been nice. Appreciate the kind words and advice :)
Yeah true
@@WeezyTF2 i would like, but 69
Gas passer hate always struck me as stupid, it's not like you're the robots fighting against it. It's isn't that big of an "I win" button anyways since there can be times where you're stuck on cooldown(especially in the early waves).
The problem is that it leaves very little to do for your other teammates. If a good pyro is using it, the rest of the team can just go AFK and still win
@@volatile5460 They should be pushing for Valve to release more difficult maps then trying to get it nerfed or not used at all then.
@@volatile5460 Yeah but you can say the same thing about a demo with the Scottish resistance yet that weapon gets praised as the savior of MvM.
@@volatile5460 that's like saying you're not allowed to use the Thundergun or Raygun in Call of Duty Zombies
And while it is on cooldown, you are left with the huge, incomparable, crippling downside of being a normal Pyro.
0:35 - Fire Axe
0:45 - Sharpened volcano fragment
1:10 - Hot hand
1:25 - Back scratcher
1:50 - Neon annihilator
2:20 - Manmelter
2:40 - All shotguns (Stock, Reserve shooter, Panic attack)
3:00 - Homewrecker
3:20 - Axtinguisher
3:45 - Scorch shot
4:25 - Flare gun
4:40 - Degreaser
5:10 - Third degree
5:35 - Thermal thruster
5:55 - Detonator
6:30 - Stock flamethrower
7:05 - Dragon fury
7:35 - Backburner
8:30 - Powerjack
9:20 - Gas passer
10:30 - Phlogistinator
Pin?
Before I had the Gas Passer I'd always use the Scorch Shot (at least when I played boot camp) and no one complained. Being able to slow down if not stall giants seemed like a good enough reason to use and upgrade it.
I can imagine the Scorch Shot can be annoying if the person just uses it as a long-range weapon. With a lot of the knockback weapons, the issue is more *not* knocking back enemies, which is easy to do by switching to Primary.
PS Generally, there are better ways to deal with giants with decently skilled teammates.
If you don’t spam it non stop and you don’t upgrade it, the weapon isn’t that annoying to your team. However, one time I was playing huntsman sniper and I had a lot of trouble hitting headshots because the scorch shot pyro knocked back every giant he saw, and never used the flamethrower.
@@nicolasrage1104 I was gonna say, someone who spams that or airblast can eat a fat one (I'm only partially sorry to genuinely good pyros who use them with moderation). Look, I get it, keeping them pushed away is great, especially if they're close to planting the bomb, but as Weezy said in a later video: "it's better to just kill them than to play a game of hot potato"
Spamming one of the two does all the following:
>Messes with Demo's timing for his stickies and reduces their subsequent damage
>Forces Heavy to either push up aggressively or put up with damage falloff (which is the last thing he wants from a team mate)
>Throws hitboxes off for Spy to land backstabs (yes Spy is very niche, but in niche moments he can be a godsend) and most likely make him pull aggro by accident the moment his disguise drops
>(Potentially) makes Scout miss his Mad Milk on crucial targets, thus wasting one of the extremely valuable resources he provides to the team (money collecting, aggro pulling, heals with milk, and mini-crits on giants with the FoW)
>Makes Sniper's day a living hell (Sniper is WAY more viable than Gas can ever be because of Ex. Headshots and Hitman's Heatmaker; change my mind ☕)
>Causes less bots to take less damage from Soldier's rockets
>Medic....ehhh I can't think of anything
>Pushes bots out of Engi's sentry range (not including the wrangler), thus preventing them from taking insane single-target damage. In addition, if an idiot Pyro spams airblast on a sentry buster, he could very well push a detonating buster up and INTO the engi's path and indirectly kill him (YES, this is real, and it's happened to me TWICE) and his sentry if he picked it up
>Prevents Pyro from optimally using his flamethrower
As you can see, my friends, aside from Medic, EVERYBODY loses out on something with knockback spamming. And yes, this all applies to heavy's knockback rage upgrade too (and that, secretly, also cuts his firing speed in half, neutering firing speed upgrades).
I might sound like a Tacoboi right now, but there is just about nothing about spamming airblast and scorch shots that benefits the team AT. ALL. I mean hell, why use the Scorch Shot when you can use a can of "insta-hell-on-earth"? Why spam airblast when the best primaries Pyro has either heavily penalize airblast or don't have it at all in exchange for FREE CRITS? Or, on certain missions/expert mvm, why not just go 2nd or 3rd heavy and have genuinely good mid-range DPS potential and leave swarm killing to either bullet penetration or your sniper's ex. headshots (especially if he's good with his aim)?
Yes, stalling and slowing down giants can be a godsend for a team being overwhelmed, but the moment you do that at almost every moment you are alive, the rest of your team, Tacobois or regular players, WILL wanna rip your head off.
And yes, I am pretty salty because as an Engi main, very few things have made me as mad as when on a wave 666 match, I picked up my sentry from a distance, only to hear the *WOOSH* and suddenly see the detonating buster fill my entire screen before I can react. My first ever time I typed in chat "[Player name], I genuinely hate you right now."
Sure, with a good team that's chill and doesn't mind/plays around you, scorch shot away, have fun juggling like a circus performer. I mean hell, Soundsmith showed that if your friends put up with enough of your BS, you can just Trolldier your way through a game of mvm. I wouldn't be surprised if a team basicslly five-mans Wave 666 with someone just A-posing as a heavy, ominously watching the bots like he's Bearded Expense in his natural habitat. But when people wanna genuinely play, get loot and/or get better at a certain class, do you really think it'd be fun if they Had to put up with someone else spamming knockbacks?
TL;DR - From my experience, *FUCK ALL KNOCKBACK MECHANICS.* Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
@@thomasmurrell9832 The more I’ve played MVM the more I’ve realized that knockback mechanics are overrated. Back in the early days of MVM everyone was told to use knockback weapons to reset the bomb and protect the pit from bomb carriers, so some players still have that mindset. However, it seems that killing the robots before they can get behind you is a much better strategy. When I play MVM I do not brainlessly spam knockback weapons, but sometimes I will use the Scorch Shot to tag enemy robots from far away from me, just so I can light a cluster of robots on fire (which can also safely charge the MMPH meter). I’ve tested this out a bit and I noticed that if I aim the flare at the robot’s chest, they won’t be knocked back, so when I use the Scorch Shot in MVM: 1. I don’t use it as often as my flamethrower, 2. I don’t spam it endlessly, 3. I make sure that the projectile doesn’t deal knockback to the robots. I mostly use the detonator or flare gun, but sometimes I like to change things up and I’ll use the Scorch Shot. It’s also a decent mobility tool, so I feel like if you use it correctly by avoiding the knockback, and you don’t rely on it to deal damage, it can be a decent choice.
@@nicolasrage1104 If you want to set things on fire from a distance, try the flare gun. It has no knockback, so none if thoss debuffs of knockback, and it does much better damage. Heck, uograde jt and suddenly you're a diet soldier. See the MVM subclass video.
I love that the 2 worst weapons for pyro in casual are the absolute best in mvm
I think it really depends on the map and enemy team though. Phlog and Backburner are insane in smaller maps (with places like vent ducts) with corners where they can ambush other players. Soldier and Demo cannot risk using their primary without suiciding
@@quakethedoombringer dude he meant phlog and gas passer
@@molassesman4066 you really think he doesn't know how bad the gas passer is in pvp? use your brain for 5 seconds
@@realchiknuggets You can correct someone without being disrespectful.
If you think phlog is the worse pyro weapo for casual, you might need to reexamine some things
I noticed one error in the video, the phlog doesn't actually have the highest sustained anti-tank dps, that's actually where the Dragon's fury shines, the phlog is still better everywhere else though.
ruclips.net/video/veq48I6B4UI/видео.html
You have it backwards. Phlog is definitely better vs. tanks, as long as you understand about shooting the tank at specific angles to maximize damage, and the DF is better everywhere else.
@@supercuz8300 ...yes???
@@supercuz8300 ...yes???
There're tests in RUclips of them side by side, the phlog does more damage when they'r emaxed out.
@MajorGalah that's the issue, you have to go out of your way to buy crit canteens or have a kritzkrieg medic, or you could jsut use the phlog for free crits
This channel really feels like it should be more popular, it has such high quality vids that were genuinely extremely useful to me!
the "no monkey pyro in mvm" wedding ring message from a tacobot was just perfect
I’m fine with it’s placement but the dragons fury is pretty busted against tanks and giants (at least when it has crits) because of the way it’s bonus damage works it does 225 with a crit and that’s without upgrades!
@MajorGalah gas passer for the crowd control
Dragons fury for the single target damage
Powerjack for the mobility you lose by not equipping the detonator
You are all covered now, no need to worry, you just need to use your brain this time
@@duncanchillake8024 but I play pyro to NOT use my brain >:(
@@Oxygen1004 good point, i do the same with heavy
@@duncanchillake8024 tbf there's really no class or playstyle in this game that requires much brainpower. this is not a hard game, and certainly not one people in other communities take seriously competitively or cooperatively
@@realchiknuggets aside from wave 666, you might be correct. Unlike the base game, once you learn what to do and your class role, MvM tends to become a cakewalk (unless you decide to experiment)
The gas passer has a nerf not listed in the stats. It will half your team size if you use it. I don't know why, but half the team will sit in spawn. Maybe it disables their movement keys. I also heard that the Pyro's respawn beacon has a bug with this weapon equipped, and won't show up after he tries to throw it on the giant hue long heater heavy.
Hehe
4:00 "then you're dodging more bullets than the robots that you're knocking into the air"
Just like those bullets, the joke missed the first time but I when I got it I realised how clever it is.
Give the Volcano Fragment an upgrade that gives it +20% damage and guaranteed crits on burning targets. There, now it's broken.
Hey man, if Chuck Greene can take a helicopter down with a toy spitball gun, those pebbles might be able to do some serious damage.
So basically have it do what the Axtinguisher does? At that point, why not just use the Axtinguisher?
@@cdsatcher Beats me man I don't like this game.
That’s literally the AXTINGUISHER
@@amiamagi Doin' it the old fashioned way.
@@cdsatcher Axtinquisher only deals mini crit and extinquish the enemy insantly, if you do what this guy says you will just KEEP igniting them over and over again with guaranteed crits which MIGHT be helpful dealing with giant medics or steel gauntlet heavies. But yeah, just throw a gas can at them and watch 'em explode
Funfact:you can out damage a heavy with the back Bruner.
and you will be the 2nd highest consistent damage source agents gaints after crit Scottishresistance demo in waves with a lot of giants you can do ridiculously high damage without needing crit canteens/kritz medic
is bad idea when theres a spy in the team because robot will turn around inmediately and provably making the giant turn around in no two cities
I think the Gas Passer should be in a tier of its own, SS tier.
smash bros brawl moment?
Looking forward to a Medic tier list, cool stuff so far.
2:06 Nothing's worse than a Scout prematurely throwing his milk.
*Am I right ladies?*
third degree is actually good against medic bots and dragon fury deals lot of damage
I fucking love how you edit and explain things, I can’t wait to see you grow and expand as a RUclipsr. I wish you the best of luck 👍
Why are you so underrated? Your videos are awesome!
Thanks man, new one coming in a few hours :)
I witnessed a legend grow up :)
My last two brain cells just exploded seeing the phlog cancel, I'ma use the hell out of that, nice vid, underrated mvm tuber.
The dragons fury is absolute god tier at recharging the gas passer. Increasing you damage only takes 1, 2, 3 shots just to refill the bar. So basically you acquire crowd control (that being a little bit slower).
I like how quick this tier list is, it's fun
Nice this is your only video that reached 1k views, Proud of ya!
This video is underrated only 750viws?l
Edit:nvm this whole channel is underrated
1:25 if your team is really good at killing bots quickly the back scratcher can really help build uber during downtime since med will have every other person to max really quickly more than likely.
I love this series, binged all of them at this point
Thanks for doing my weapons WeezyTF2!!!!
I dunno, I'd slap the Scorchshot into B since that constant hitstun is good for allowing Heavies to deal with the bigger issues trying to bum-rush the bomb or just general progression halting for the bots. The Knockback problem does not really exist if the target is stuck to a wall forever
Also the scorch shot: *Is the best anti giant weapon since it can easily push multiple of giants into a corner and can boost your phlog*
"And your scout prematurely throws his milk"
I'm going to assume that's a premature ejaculation joke.
Scorch Shot can also kinda do a similar thing to the Loose Cannon, But worse.
Hold back bots before they spawn in, That way you can build up another stickytrap with your demo, or get an Uber for your medic
Played mvm for the first time in a while yesterday. Used this exact S tier loadout from intuition and teammates advice, worked a charm!
you said that the fun factor wasnt the reason the gas is in S, but i would like to say that either absolutely demolishing a whole group of smaller robots or immediately killing like 5 medics with one click of m1 is just immensely satisfying..
also worth noting that 99% of gas passer utility comes from the "explode on ignite" stat.
I've been using phlog + gas for a while now and I'm glad that im using somewhat of a meta.
i had no idea phlog taunt cancelling was a thing..
overall great video
While I've grown to love the Dragons fury while playing with it, I'm surprised how effective the Phlog is with regards to MvM
The Scorch Shot is easily the best sustained weapon pyro has to stall hoards of robots.
While it is good at that, stalling hordes of robots is not generally that good. This just means that more robots spawn, and if/when you have to stop stalling them there's even more robots to over-run your defense.
As a rule, the team should be aiming to kill them roughly as fast as they come out.
I've never played mvm but your videos are really engaging and interesting
wow, very cool
1:00 Also you forgot to mention that you literally have a flamethrower which lights enemies on fire anyways.
You should include another tier in these, and that tier should be the "griefer tier", where items such as the scorch shot and loose cannon would go.
I really don't understand the hate for the Gas Passer. I don't play pyro in MVM, but when you get the sweaty tryhards with 400+ tours threatening to kick you out for using it because "it's too easy" but then also doing the same if you pick any other even slightly sub-optimal weapon (or class in some cases), I just don't understand it.
Hate is rarely logical.
I hear you there, trying to sneak that Dark World theme by us
Just wanna tell you that you make some good stuff. A new goldmine for me.
so best for mvm pyro is gas passer, the phlog, the powerjack
I played a lot of boot camp games in manhattan as pyro with backburner bc i dont have the phlog and the crits with backburner are just pure asmr especially against giants, what i like to do in early to mid games is get uber canteens in case the robots start to target me and health on kill for more survability with ammo capacity and damage upgrade
Whats the last music you used?
It’d be cool if the afterburn time upgrade made the Axtinguisher do broken burst damage.
I honestly think that you are underestimating the Axtingusher. It can turn those pesky spies into your personal "Speed Boost Canteen" due to Axtingusher Mini-Crits being able to OHK Spies. Which the speed is only gained on kill (I think)
The third degree should be A tier for the fact that you can mass kill every single small medic connected to a giant robot without having to attack them
Unless there are too many medics and they overheal each other. Then it'll just make some pop uber
Or just throw gas
The Dragon’s Fury is also great against tanks and giants. You’ll get the full benefit of the fire rate increase while doing stupid amounts of burst damage. Of course, the Phlog still wins for being able to destroy tanks and giants while also having excellent trash-killing abilities. Regardless, a good MvM Pyro with The Dragon’s Fury is not to be underestimated.
The flame thrower, one or the most used weapons by me for the simple reason airblast, inexperienced players will spam it non stop, but an experienced player like myself, this is down right amazing, I don't care if you disagree this is my opinion for example:
1- Airblast can push away projectiles, this makes it amazing for crit projectile robots such as the sir nukes a lot and the minigun crit rocket, you can reflect them to deal major damage that sometimes outdamages pretty much anything, without the use of crit canteens.
If you do miss the reflect, you can save your team, if your team doesn't get resistances, this is amazing as it causes all damage to be avoided, helping your team.
2- Airblasting robots is very effective (if used on an experienced pyro in mvm) you can reset the bomb by pushing robots into the pit on both the maps in two cities, this is also an insta kill meaning it does more damage than ANYTHING, pushing half health bosses into the pit when they get there is great as it totally stops them in their tracks, pushing the sentry buster away from a sentry when your engi isn't there could save you the round, pushing bomb carries back is also amazing as it disables the ability for them to deploy a bomb (exception being tank obviously), gathering all bots into one big pile will be useful for soldier.
It doesn't matter of you say no, it's true, if a experienced pyro does this to help you shouldn't kick them or call them slurs.
Before you all get toxic and salty, remember to read everything I said and make sense of it, of course this all depends on the Pyro's skill level and they shouldn't do it if they suck at pyro, but a pro mvm pyro should not be associated with a noob 0 tour pyro.
But why use stock when you have the backburner?
@@zoom0451 "simple reason airblast"
@@ogonplayzgames7823 backburner has airblast
I agree with pretty much all of this list but a few things.
Scorch shot is indeed annoying for sniper or in general and doesn’t do a ton of damage on small bots BUT, it’s damage is actually ok against giants (if you don’t want to push forward) not to mention you push the giants back into holes with it from afar, i’d say it’s not even close to d-tier and it’s more so closer to B-tier, though this one is more opinion based since it’s kind of hard to gauge this weapons use besides knockback and singular damage, but I’d say it’s fine on the list as is, just giving insight
Detonator should be the same with Scorch shot, so it will move relative to it. Mainly because you will ONLY use it for jumping and the damage you sustain by jumping with it can make the difference between living and becoming steak. And no, using it as a damage tool is a waste of time, at best you get 30 damage per shot AS A MINI CRIT (minus after burn)
I disagree with the third degree, it’s d tier, it’s ONLY use is against robot medics, and you need a crit to one shot without it popping it’s Uber, you can do more damage AND have a higher probability surviving with a flamethrower then going into melee range just to have a chance to kill the medics. It’s VERY situational and not worth using honestly. Heck I’d pick using a flare gun and shoot the medics from range then using a MELEE weapon.
Same goes with the home wrecker, the purpose of the weapon barely shines and the increased building damage does NOTHING in this game mode, this also should be D tier
Otherwise, I agree with the list, I mained pyro in MvM for 80% of my playtime in said game mode and all your points are spot on (besides the third degree)
9:53
correction: one-shots ALMOST every group of robots in the game, there are gigats (we dont count those) and there are egineers with 500hp (i think it doesnt matter cuz its support but it still doesnt one shot everything)
i actually do want to add 1 note to the scorch shot that makes it the reason i use it in 1 situation that always comes up on a full tour and is always at least amusing
cheesing sir nukes-alot. yeah i know it's easier to just cheese him with airblast, but it's all the more insulting to do it with the 2nd worst flare option.
is it useful; no. is it annoying to your team; sometimes. is it fun it to dunk on that one miniboss and giants at the 2nd gate; hell yeah!
your df part shows you either have high ping or cl_interp not set to 0. if you do the last it may remove the delay of the projectile coming out.
2:41 alright, I'm using this line now because It's fucking amazing
My Pyro MVM loadout:
Primary: Stock Flamethrower
Reason: I don't spam the f*ck out of airblast like those other mongoons. I only use it when needed, especially when there's incoming projectile spam. I cannot tell you how many times airblast saved my team from that. Also, get a Kritz med on your back, and you can make the Stock Flamethrower a makeshift Phlog.
Secondary: Flare Gun
Reason: Although Gas does ABSURDLY high damage numbers, I don't want to be hogging all the DPS to myself (that's called being selfish), so why risk getting called a retard when you can just spam the living hell out of flares and get crits safely without having to be called a racial slur?
Melee: Powerjack
Reason: Yes, as stated in your video, this stacked with movement speed upgrades does wonders for your survivability against Snipers.
6:37 I only spam airblast on waves with a lot of soldier and demomen robots
Does the phlog really out damage the dragon on giants and tanks? That’s wild
honestly youre underrating the scorch shot. ive found if you get enough firing speed and reload something you can do is use it to just straight up bully robots into a corner and hold them there, it can be more useful than you might expect. also the dragons fury actually has higher tank DPS than the phlog even with mmph if you use crit canteens
"hard to not play as a beginner every time you play"
even for an "expert" its very tempting playing him, bc most of the time the team cant do stuff and he is just carrying with eas (with pits and phlog)
okay so. Phlog, Check. Powerjack, very check. detonator, Check. cool
Ngl bro. The scorch shot is actually super good and effective. Nobody on my teams complain about it.
I pray i never queue into a game with you
@@reason9262 your loss. We'd win
@@sparkie1j I play sniper. Yeah we'd probably win, but it would be literal torture.
@@reason9262 nah i play sniper
@@sparkie1j you use the scorch shot on sniper? Interesting.
A reload upgraded scorch shot can completely nullify and giant who takes knock back, you're too far to Target and they're stuck to the wall and whittled away by minicrit flares
except stalling giants is a bad idea. more time spent killing giants = more time for next robots, busters and support to spawn. even worse if you do this on giants who really need to be killed quickly like giant meds or giant black box soldiers. also pinning them to the wall fucks over spy.
Or you could dish out 200 DPS to that giant, and let your team do way more damage than any single player could to him instead of stalling the game and essentially waiting until the next subwave arrives and wrecks you.
I've saved my team multiple times with airblasting bomb into pit I usually only airblast wen a bots near a pit or the bot is near the bomb point also its pretty funny to kill a bunch of crit soldiers with reflected projectiles. Usually I'll use phlog/dragons fury when there's a tank and stock for everything else.
Fun little fact. I did a funny little thing where I gave myself crits, Uber, and fastest firing speed possible, and played by myself as pyro on wave 666. The shotgun actually did better than the flamethrower did for tanks. You need all the cheats possible to make shotguns better than the damn phlog.
I just realized:
Buff Banner - Offensive banner
Battalion's Backup - Defensive banner
Concheror - Supportive banner
Scout too,
Crit-A-Cola - Offensive
Bonk Atomic Smash - Defensive
Mad Milk - Support
I guess Heavy's lunchbox items too, but they all get outclassed by the Sandvich most of the time...
Is that Super Smash Bros Subspace Emissary music I hear?
7:21 also the dragon's fury is really good against tanks
Good job mate 👍
I’m fine with the current Gas Passer, but it they were to balance it out, I would make it so that the puddle, instead of exploding, creates a lasting pool of napalm which deals constant Fire and Afterburn damage to any Robots walking through it. Turns it from a Nuke to an Area Denial tool.
Does the neon annihilator work on enemies doused by the gas passer? Havent had the balls to even try.
no
The gas passer sucks so much in normal play that it deserves to be so good in mvm
As a pyro main I try not to use the gaspasser to much, only when we're geting swarmed and even then I get just 2 ticks of the recharge time on it so I physically can't spam it
Worth noting, on expert airblast is significantly more useful in pugs and its almost impossible to actually get around to the backs of enemies
So I'd say this
Primary:
For Rotten take phlog, theres no pits for airblasts
For Mannworks take Backburner, it's too easy not to
For Decoy take Dragons fury, it kills meds faster for when your sniper or demo, or lack, fails you and airblasting into the trench is good for stability.
For coaltown Backburner, its easier to get behind since the sheds in a nice spot to flank, the air blast can come in clutch due to those 2 pits
For Mannworks stick to phlog, there isn't any real resets and the bombsite doesn't serve well for airblasting like the decoy trench
Ofc, this is just pug advice for people desperate to play Pyro. the real expert advice is don't play Pyro if there isn't a tank, just go heavy if you want damage.
You said Mannworks twice, and also what about Big Rock?
@@bazingamycheeks probably where 2nd man works is
I would say that The Dragon's Fury is and s tier rank
Honestly I really think you should've given the Dragon's Fury A tier, maybe even s tier. This thing's damage is insane, it shreds through giants and tanks with a level of effectiveness slightly below the phlog. And you also get air blast for last-ditch boom saves and preventing dangerous bots from rolling your team. It basically combines the best attributes from the phlog and the stock flamethrower. I don't it's quite as good as the phlog, but I definitely think it's better than the backburner
I don’t really get why the scorch shot is so low. I use it all the time unless I have a sniper, and it lets me lock big bots into corners from a distance. I also just really dislike the gas passer, so it does the AoE reasonably well.
In all fairness, Pyro's innate fire resistance makes his axe a little better than the shovel, same for the other melee weapons. Even demoknight had better think twice about engaging a giant pyro or pyro wave trusting in his health on kill and crazy damage--or he can blow several canteen's worth of credits to get fire resistance. But Pyro can get in safely, start a chopping, and honestly? Since robots tend to favor fighting the players closest to them when they spawn, a low damage unkillable tank build is surprisingly useful in mvm I find.
based music at the beginning
i dont think the thermal thruster is better than scorch shot
themal thruster just gives you vertical mobility and the scorch shot can act as a mini airblast when you are using phlog
Scorch shot is def better but man it's so annoying to play with from a team mate perspective. Knockback is pretty much useless with a competent scout w/ milk and/or soldier with specialist. It's the only secondary I use besides gas because like u said it's nice being able to knock bombs into insta-kill pits and keep bots away from the bomb site for a few extra seconds.
Neon should be above Homewrecker. Neon can save buildings, too.
I think airblast is underrated. If you’re a noob and get in the way with it that’s one thing, but the ability to bomb reset, separate Uber medics from their patients so you team can damage said patients, knock the bomb backwards, delay capping enemies for long enough to kill them or your team to get in position to help, and send crit rockets and pills back at enemies, simultaneously damaging them and giving your team less to worry about, those things just cannot be ignored
resetting the bomb means your team was already missplaying anyway.
and separating uber meds from their patients is never gonna trump just killing them before they ever get the chance to pop.
reflecting rocket is extremely dangerous in latter wave because you cant read mind and wont know evne in the best of case if any of your team will get in the way.
@@Teixas666 you know reflected rockets can’t damage Allies right?
And obviously if you need to separate the Uber meds from their patients they’ve already been set off so your initial plan of killing them didn’t work.
And let’s be real, while in Mann up people tend to play decent, how often do casual players not ‘misplay’? And this is esp true in wave 666 where there is no Mann up alternative.
Just burn them, by the love of god
@@mylifewithautism3958
If a team can't manage to kill the uber medic then they sure as hell won't be able to kill the patient.
And speaking of casual misplays, what's stopping the Pyro from messing up? I've also had plenty of games go awry in boot camp because a Pyro can't let go of M2. At least when other classes done goof they don't singlehandily screw up the rest of the team.
So I think the ultimate powers set up for the Pyro is the gasoline thing The power jack and the flame fruit without an air blast I forgot the name
The gas passer is just superior, I decided to give it a try after this video and the second game I played I won, having the second highest damage pretty close behind some demo main, and it was my first attempt!
anyone seen what metro malice does when tanks spawn as its hell because for some reason the tank thinks it's at the end of its course so it's impossible until opens gate b as it spawns there
how mvm high tours see low tour pyros :
He has no rules , No boundaries he doesnt flinch a torture
human trafficing or g3n0c1d3...
he is not loyal to a flag or a country...
I completely disagree with your regards on air blast
in expert mode air blast is fundamental to keeping back that bomb and getting resets
so I say the one with the most air blast, which is stock, is s tiered over the flog
Airblast has its moments in MvM.
There is three types of airblast pyros
1. They dont know m1 exists
2. They try to reset the bomb then die before they can get it in the pit after air blasting a giant all the way there
3. They get maximum knock back and see how many people they can kill with a single sentry buster. Surprisingly you dont get kicked for it as much as you think.
@@cowthedestroyer only in expert mode do I use stock 100% of the time
or you know you could just kill the robots
@@woop6727 you can't kill them fast enough, you have to reset the bomb multiple times during the course of a wave
"So yes, the flamethrower might be in the same tier as the fucking mailbox."
baCkScraTcHEr d TIeR
I saved my whole team from a tank with the the backscratcher 🗿
what about the pyroland weapons? like the lollipop axe or whatever?
They're all just reskins of stock weapons so it would go into the same ranking as them
Couple of things:
-the backscratcher is used to take out individual uber medics without having them pop
-shotguns have one specific use case, for giant knights - they only show up in early game, when the cash isn't there for damage upgrades yet
-the homewrecker is made completely irrelevant by the neon - neon does more damage + has guaranteed instant kill scenarios, which the homewrecker doesn't have
-The scorch shot has an extra bad synergy from heavy, because heavy's main source of damage is ramp-up
-One thing to note about the scorch shot is that it doesn't provide a rocket jump like the detonator, no explosions occur when you shoot it on the ground. As a result of this, jumps from the scorch shot give you a lot of momentum you can't use to air strafe, which makes a ton of otherwise very easy jumps very awkward. On top of that, it doesn't break the 256 hammer units barrier in terms of height, which is usually a reference value for upper areas on TF2 maps
-The only use I see for the flare gun is killing support snipers in 2 hits instead of 3 with the detonator
-third degree is the best weapon to use when relevant. Takes out uber medics & you still have jumps from detonator
-stock takes away phlog crits and replaces it with a temporary inability to deal damage, where's the benefit in airblasting things when you can just a+d spam bodyblock / circle strafe with basically permanent crits from phlog
-the dragon's fury has much lower dps than you think. It really pales in comparison to a phlog pyro who knows when to crit & cancel on the missions he plays. + its tank damage sucks dick. You lose a ton of piercing efficiency with it as well, which is probably pyro's best strength for doing damage.
-The backburner's main strength relies on having a reliable enough distraction who understands aggro priority. Not only that, it also severely restrict your movement and approaches compared to phlog
-gas? mvm's most powerful weapon? Play 2 man missions, you'll be surprised at just how inefficient it is. I think this is the biggest one you need to reexamine. There is nothing gas does the phlog can't already do very well. And most importantly, you lose out on the ability to jump, which really really sucks on a class who gets the most benefit from those (phlog cancels). On top of that, gas tears a massive $400 hole in your early game econ, which is your starting money on the very large majority of missions. The detonator is useful free of charge, it doesn't force you to buy anything w1, so you can buy health on kill, which pyro's actual strongest asset, along with having natural access to infinitely piercing flames free of charge.
-this isn't a mvm tier list, it only applies on 4 out of the 30 missions the gamemode has to offer if it's 2c only.
I didn't have much else to say, but I think this video could gain a lot if you tried the top of the end difficult challenges mvm has to offer, to see for yourself what the most effective known tactics look like. Play missions with just 2 people - Floro#8323 on discord if you want to play those.
Source: I've completed a large amount of missions with 2 people, all of them with Pyro, without refunds - the runs have video proof, all of which I've uploaded. Talk to me if you want to take your mvm game to the next level, on any class. Down for collab work / videos too
If you don't want to, I at least hope the feedback was helpful
-A mvm pyro specialist
To anyone who thinks this man is full of himself, ask him for the screenshot of a damage race he and I did with me using gas and him using detonator. He beat me, by a lot.
blessed MvM pyro researcher
I'm curious about why you don't like the Dragon's Fury, and how much you've actually used it. I suspect you just haven't taken the time to understand it due to having such a boner for the Phlog. Its tank damage is not actually terrible, ending up about the same as if you just used the Phlog and aimed straight into the tank. Definitely not great compared to a properly used Phlog, but honestly still very good compared to other classes, and would still get the job done just fine in most cases.
Its damage is also incredible in skilled hands. I've played hundreds of adv/expert missions, and some of the highest damage totals I've ever seen, not counting Heavies with kritz meds, were from DF Pyros.
And what's this bit about losing piercing efficiency with the Dragon's Fury? That's the opposite of the truth; it's the Phlog that suffers much more from this, comparatively.
The Phlog suffers from a full 50% damage falloff at the end of its range (including crits). The Dragon's Fury, meanwhile, only has 10% falloff at max range. (To be fair, the DF does also ramp up to 120% at point blank range. 90% of base damage is 75% of the maximum of 120%, so you could argue that in effect it basically has 25% falloff.) Still, that's only half the falloff of the other flame throwers. Everything in that line gets hit for at least 90% of base damage, or 75% of max ramped-up damage. If you think piercing efficiency is Pyro's best strength for doing damage, you might want to give the Dragon's Fury another look, because it does better piercing damage than any other flame thrower. You also don't have to worry about only a few flame particles hitting a robot, either--a hit is a hit. If the very edge of that fireball just grazes the edge of a robot's hitbox, it still does all the damage.
In addition to that, once you upgrade damage you can reliably two-shot uber meds with no real risk of popping them, and you can do that without having to get in melee range.
Also, crit & cancel might not be quite as good as you seem to think it is, for one simple reason: you have to put your Phlog away for a certain amount of time in order to set it up. So while you certainly gain some damage from the extra time with crits, you are losing at least some of that damage while you switch to the detonator, jump, and switch back to your Phlog.
Oooooh boy here it goes
idc i will only use crit canteen dragons fury
7:20
The reason the Gas Passer isn't just complete trash right here.
Guys, what is better, the flare gun or the thermal thruster? And the Starter flamethrower or dragons fury?
Flare gun is surprisingly good damage, tt is good for mobility. I'd say the flare gun since you're prob not concerned with mobility that much in mvm imo. And the Flamethrower is better than the dragon's fury in my opinion too, since the df focuses on single target damage whereas you can hit more enemies with stock
I remember the times I'd out damage the heavy and engineer on tours on tow cities. I don't know if that's a testament to the gas passer or what.