Guild Tour - Hardy Kiwi NOT a great companion!
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
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Amazing video and great insights here! We have a hardy kiwi trellised on one of our trees. The difference is the size and the species that we are using for the trellis. Our tree is a mature thornless honey locust, (Gleditsia triacanthos form inermis). Due to both the hardness of the locust wood and the girth of the branches of the mature tree, the hardy kiwi can climb upon but not damage or strangle the tree. Your Chinese chestnut (Castanea mollissima,) on the other hand, has soft wood. The softness of the wood and the small size of the tree explains the constricting damage that you observed. Hardy kiwi (Actinidia arguta), like most vines, grows quickly, and, as you observed, it will quickly overwhelm a small tree. As you correctly stated, it is not a bad plant, it is just not a suitable companion plant for your tree. Thank you for making this video and for pointing out this issue. Many people do not feel secure enough to post their mistakes and post only their success stories. The permaculture community needs more people like you because we all have experienced failures. Failures are good. They produce wisdom and wisdom produces future success!
A vine will seek (but may not always reach) the highest sunniest spot. Be aware of and take advantage of that when planting vines. If you want to add shade, a vining plant can help, it’s large leaves and high position cast a long shadow. If you don’t want the vine to climb and overtake a tree, provide something even taller next to it (we use moso bamboo for trellises). That way, once directed to the taller alternative, it will leave your shorter tree alone! Also, be aware of the weight of vines. Always trellis on a sturdy tree or trellis with sturdy wood to avoid broken branches.
Thank you so much for explaining this!
@@nathaliewood5087 You are welcome! We need as many people gardening and growing their own food as possible. So I’m always happy to help if I can. Here is a picture for the northern hemisphere (sun is to the south) that shows a tree that you don’t want the vine to trellis upon, the vine and the taller trellis that you do want the vine to trellis upon:
N. Tree V. Trellis (w. Vine). S.
this is helpful. thank you.
@@whereisangie 😀
Guilds are such complex interactions and they take time to establish so it's challenging for any one person to learn the process for them. RUclips and other video platforms seem like the perfect place to trade ideas and develop a cohesive strategy for beginners from a myriad of sources. Thanks for taking the lead!
Happy to share!
Fantastic! I'm building my first guilds now. Apple, honeyberry, comfrey with native Prarie flowers on the edge of huge pin oak drip lines.
Sounds like a great design!
In Martin Crawford's books, he advocates using small leaved lime (tilia cordata) as a trellis for hardy kiwi. The lime is used as a bulk salad leaf, so is coppiced every three years or so to keep the leaves within reach. The kiwi is coppiced at the same time. It keeps them in balance.
Nice idea for sure... We have grape growing on Honey Locust and a similar pattern of pollarding every 2 years keeps things flowing in a good way.
I feel like this advice goes for most perennial vines grown on trees. For example, I’ve had similar struggles with a table grape vine grown next to/on a plum tree. Every year I need to really cut it back or else it would have killed it by now
I could imagine.
Vining layers are one area where I hesitate to jump in to. The forests near me are over run in some areas with “invasive” vines- lots of wisteria and non-native grapes. While I love brining more species and diversity to the area, it seems so easy to completely disrupt the local ecology with the wrong vining plant! I like your idea of working with annual vines to better understand their growth habits- may try that this year. Would definitely like to see more videos of guilds where you have successfully incorporated a vining layer and notes on what made it successful. Thanks!
Learning for sure about the complexity of hardy, woody, perennial vines in the guild context. Compelling concept but something to be careful with for sure.
interesting to hear about "erasing from a guild". thank you
Maypop is a good vining layer that dies back in the fall, but it may also die below zone 7 if not mulched very well.
Thank you. I was planning to put my mini-kiwi at an old plum tree. Trellis it shall be.
Very good instructions, thank you.
Can you share more about perennial vegetables? growing, harvesting, different uses & cooking them
Good topic. We can explore that this year.
I'm all about the guild concept, really looking forward to more on that topic!
In my NH garden zone 3 arctic kiwi and schizandra are well established and now, after 15 years, somewhat invasive. Kiwi is 40ft up a white pine and self trellised on small cherries and hazels. The kiwi also roots off vines that touch the soil. Schizandra I trellised on a sour cherry. The cherry doesn't bear fruit but the schizandra bears heavily and the fruits are fertile and do sprout on the ground. It's a self fertile variety. Cheers and thank you for your inspiration.
Sounds like a dreamy scene!
@@edibleacres Not exactly dreamy, but satisfying. The schizandra sprouts are delicious eaten fresh and Young. Thank you!
You do great work 🤙🏻
Thanks :)
@@edibleacres have you ever tried with black walnut possibly nice low branches that will throw off nice shade and some mushroom logs underneath. Not sure if the juglone will effect it, it’s crazy that I just bought hardy kiwi and was going to try this. Thanks for the video
Super interesting; I have many 'failures' as well and each has taught a lot (read, I choose to continue to err). Look forward to you adding to your guild findings in video.
For sure, excited to do so!
We have both hardy and arctic kiwi. We grow them mostly on second story deck railing where they cast useful shade.. One male will service as many as 8 females. It is a good idea to cut back the males every summer after flowering. Doesn't hurt 'em a bit. Most compete guilds have 8 elements (layers) : overstory trees, understory trees, shrubs, perennials, herbaceous, ground cover, roots and fungus. The only trouble I have noticed with growing kiwi on an older tree is seeing all the fruit that is too high to harvest. The birds don't complain and the chickens, geese and turkeys take care of the drops. Keep up the good work.
Sounds like a nice and functional system you've got!
Hardy kiwi has impressive strength and growth!
yay! Excited to see these for sure!
Great video as always. Being a horticultural science student in the Upper Midwest, I have been taught that pruning woody plants for optimal callus formation means making final cuts in late Februry-early April, but not later than that. Many fungal/viral diseases of trees and shrubs become active again in late April depending on weather. So there is an increased risk of infection when pruning occurs outside of the window I mentioned. This may be more true for some species than others, but it makes a good general rule if you are not 100% sure of the disease risks for certain plants in your locale.
Haha try it with the cherry! You'll get a choked cherry 😂 but for real it would be pretty cool to see the kiwi help pull down the old cherry tree!
I'd have to prune the branches away from the power lines first!
The pun/joke made me smile. Thanks
Looks like it’s starting to be spring there!
Loved hearing the geese,, grew up in Highland NY overlooking the Hudson... Would know winter over when seeing the geese flying in a V formation traveling North..... Miss the area,, living in zip code 31639,learning about growing Citrus.... Love ur site
I’m just rooting out some hardy kiwi cuttings. I have a porch with 2x4” wire mesh “walls” that I’m hoping to grow it on. Also a property line row of huge cedars, some of which are mostly dead, but are held up by those still living. Living in town it’s sometimes impolitic to cut things down
Your Kiwi. Kill them all. Kill 'em now, or, regret them later.
Hoping you find a great design that works with your space!
Hardy Kiwi are really tasty. A. arguta is grown commercially on a small scale here in Austria. I've also heard good reviews of A. kolomikta. But yes, they are very strong vines. A lot more than grape, I'd say on par or slightly stronger than Wisteria. Needs a sturdy metal trellis imo. Over a carport or on a strong metal fence. I've also seen it growing up a street lantern pole, that worked well too and is very space-efficient. Great plant, really want to make room for one eventually
Wisteria seems like a reasonable analog.
I agree.. Kiwi will strangle and tangle a garden like no other vine inhale seen. Grapes will do it but are so much slower they don't compare. Kiwi for me are a privacy fence if I can get them moved.
Also, imo, I’ve never seen problems caused by pruning in winter in terms of wound . On the one hand, the tree won’t heal much at first, but on the other hand insects and pathogenic fungi are also dormant/frozen. I think the wood is still able to desiccate around the wound so that upon thaw, the surface isn’t a good conduit for disease any more.
The way you pruned should be totally fine too, I just personally think Its probably overkill.
I have an old apple tree that looks like it got blown down. It is still alive but growing sideways at a 45º angle with the root ball nearly tipped up. I put kiwi near the top and will help it climb once it gets long enough.
You may later sharply regret the Kiwi you today love.
I remember this guild from a previous video, and I'm so glad that you show these instances of plant combinations not working out as initially hoped. I likely would have made the same mistake here (with Grape vines, in my climate) if it hadn't been for seeing your videos. Apios americana / Hopniss / Groundnut will make a much better candidate, dying back to the ground each year to avoid that constricting woody growth strangling the tree/trellis-plant either by constricting and scarring the bark and girdling the tree or by getting up into the foliage and simply competing for sunlight.
Keep up the amazing videos
Groundnut in this context would be a beautiful addition. I will transplant some in this spring if time allows. Nice idea!
@@edibleacres This is exactly the reason I was so ecstatic that y'all managed to include a few Groundnut tubers in my order from y'all last year - that was my "oh shoot, if that's not gonna work I better find something else that will!" attempt and it has seemed to work fine so far.
Hardykiwi is a tricky one. Theres only one sure fire variety i can say that would be relatively functional in a guild with some high value trees and that eould be the issai kiwi. Not as vigorous of a growth habit and seem to grow into a shrubby tangle rather then way up into the canopy. Mabey placing it on a sturdy tree that has less value...like a locust or redbud or even a male persimmon. I grow my issai kiwi along the edge of a drive way and manage it like a hedge. It does work well on a short fence. It takes lomger to grow then alot of other vining plants here but if it takes over a short fence it can be shaped into a hedge.
Really nice thoughts. Yeah, Red Bud or Locust could be a nicer candidate for a host for them.
I have the hardy kiwis planted on cattle panel arched trellis. What friends would you be great companions around the base? I really love this video! Thank you for always talking about what is working and what is not ❣️🙏🏽.
We have kiwi on a cattle panel trellis and have sorrel growing and lemon balm underneath, and have the pathways inoculated with Wine Caps. Those aspects work nicely for su.
@@edibleacres thank you I will try adding those❣️
I also have hardy kiwi on an arched cattle panel. I grow some annual vines such as long beans,Malabar spinach and limas with it, although as it matures it will be taking over the entire trellis by itself. I plant flowers and herbs underneath it,mainly basils,salvias and zinnias so far.
Could you give that Kiwi friend an alternative to wrap around. Maybe a bamboo teepee. Love your heart for all creation. You are a great example of a good steward.
Thanks Lisa. Yeah, we'll find some other better areas for them to get going in a crazy way and enjoy life without hurting anyone!
Sometimes it is better to relocate. But if we cannot relocate, finding support to coexist is sometimes required. That seems to apply to us, too. Shalom.
Perhaps phasing out the kiwi in favor of hops, ground nut, or may pop could be an option. Not sure if they are the best for the context. Caucasian mountain spinach may work if it’s well shaded within the guild canopy.
Thanks for sharing! Good to know how intense the kiwi can get.
Hops or groundnut could both be much more gentle companions for sure!
I have the opposite issue with my Hardy kiwi varieties, male/female and the Issai self pollinating, on isolated large trellis but has yet to produce fruit.
Hope they do it for you soon!
I am growing mine on a trellis and training them towards a tree on my property that I don’t like but my neighbour does. I’ll let the vine kill it so I can remove the tree without annoying a neighbour while getting food for a few years. The problem (strangling characteristic of the vine, the need for food, and the desire to subtly kill a tree) are all solutions for each other
Interesting design direction, I won't tell the neighbor!
I’ve found that vining crops tend to be detrimental to the life around them. Seem to act better as a revitalizing agent for a dying system, rather than a vitalizing agent for new ground. I’ve even had a male kiwi overtake the female planted nearby, had to do some major excavation to get her back haha
One layer of the food forest I struggle envisioning how to include is the vining layer. What are some good vines you suggest that don't have to be hyper managed?
For temperate climates: grape, Hardy kiwi, runner beans
Some other hardy edible vines are Akebia, Dioscorea polystachya, Passiflora incarnata (needs heat), Schisandra, Kadsura, Hops
I think an entry into the idea of vines in a guild would be to explore annual vines for a while and see what is happening there. We've done winter squash on Autumn Olive, seen peas and climber beans on elderberry and others like that.. Gives you a feel for how it works and some food for thought. They are tricky!
Some perennial vines could be Hablitzia, Hops, and other perennial vines that die back each winter...
You could combine the vining layer with coppiced trees and cut the vine together with the tree to keep both in check. You could use Willow, Lime or even Ash trees for that. I have planted some Willows and Lime trees myself and am planning on planting some grape, hops and beans.
And annuals like Sean suggests are a great way to start.
Would putting hardy kiwi on/around the garden shed be a good idea? Help keep the shed shaded n cool .
I would imagine it would be rough on the structure over time.
I've have had the hardest time getting hardy kiwi to grow up a tree. I have a silver maple that is 30 years old that I planted four hardy kiwis under 6 or 8 years ago. All but one have died over the years. The last one gets hit with spring frosts every year and dies back to the roots. Some years it makes it 6 or 8 feet up into the tree and other years it just twines around on the ground. It always leafs out when the maple is flowering, gets zapped by a spring frost, then starts over when the tree is fully leafed out. The ground under the tree stays dry and is full of a dense network of maple roots, some of which come out of the ground completely. Digging under this tree is impossible due to the roots. I think the kiwi is struggling to compete with the tree for water and root space which keeps it weak.
Is the hardy kiwi safe for chickens? Could it be trellised on the outside of the chicken run? Also, as you spoke about the dying cherry tree, it made me think of the way mushrooms work with assisting trees in dying. Would hardy kiwi be able to do that or would it be a harsher passing for the tree?
Hardy Kiwi involved in a chicken yard could be great. Super strong fence, some wooden arbor, they would LOVE it I bet!
I'd heard the kiwis are supposedly better suited to sturdy trellis. I had some trellises installed expecting massive growth and fruit production only to have the kiwis never thrive.I don't think they like the 90 and 100 degree temps here in the summer. The trellises have never been used for anything. I'm in SC zone 8a.
I could imagine they wouldn't like the extreme heat.
Would a locust tree fit within one of these food growing areas (is that what a guild means?) We have one growing right next to two pawpaw's we planted
New to your channel. Came for the chickens and stayed for the permaculture and gentle spirit. Do you have any experience or resources for advice on using giant grass as a hedge and or as chicken bedding?
We have't tried the giant grasses as chicken bedding just yet, but it's an interesting idea.
My hardy kiwi problem has been deer.
Hops, which dies back to the ground in fall, is a better option.
In other contexts, like where Manitoba maple / box alder grows like a weed, maybe hardy kiwi is appropriate :-)
Hops could be a nicer fit for a scene like this... Good thinking
I would never grow kiwi again, unless I wanted to make a wall and didn't care about whatever's near it. Not easy to kill either. I had no idea they were so tough.
They are powerful plants for sure.
Damn! Thanks for the heads-up. Although I've got my hardy kiwis growing into some not so important (to me) trees, I am going to reconsider if I'm all behind them creating havoc. One i've got climbing into a 25-ish year old plum that doesn't produce plums. An other one I've got climbing into a young linden where my plan is to cut the linden and the kiwi down to the ground every couple of years. The same idea I've got going with a young oak. Writing it down now, maybe this isn't such a bad plan after all... what do you think?
Seems reasonable to me.. I think so long as you are keeping an eye on things and being thoughtful and proactive in management you should be fine. Absolutely wouldn't suggest you erase it all just because of my experience. Periodic hard cuts to some of the characters can keep it functional I bet!
@@edibleacres Thanks for the reply, love what you're doing!
Yes, artic kiwi grows minimal and fruits in shade, though not much for yeilds comparatively to hardy, which prefers full sun, or kind of commands it in it's growth traights. Kolmitka is also super slow growing, so plant in and forget it for three years at least. The shade preference should make it easy to work into guilds though.
If you were to arbour a cable between 3 trees you may be able to guild hardy kiwi like the self pollinating Isaiah cultivar and train them naturally towards sun rich areas, but I've heard males can get quite aggressive and overpowering as your video suggests. Or just build structures and mono in your kiwi plots, and guild in the lower layers.
I'm doing layers of nettles, mints, clovers, asparagus, ECT and coppice mowing what I don't harvest and giving to the kiwis as mulch, then row in hedges and thickets , then thick canopy for shelter breaks.
I've got both arctic and hardy kiwi varieties and I accidentally ended up leaving the arctic ones in a more shady area where I want them to eventually climb 3 old sour cherry shurbs and maybe a few other trees, fence, or shed that's also in that area while I left the arguta in a fully sunny area but been unable to come up with a good living trellis for them due to that area being very limited in space.
Now that I know they have a tendency to kill stuff they climb I might just use an artificial trellis and your comment as well as edible acre's video have definitely made me feel less worried about that.
Great ideas here, thank you!
maybe Hablitzia would be a better vining choice? I'm trying to germinate seeds of it right now.
Hablitzia is a wonderful vine and dies back very cleanly to ground in the winter.. Good idea
I have a nuisance tree that has grown too big and is starting shading important parts of my garden. It has grown beyond the point where I feel safe cutting it down, so I think I will use the 'kill by kiwi' strategy.
Could be a nice approach, but also something to be careful as far as where they spread to once the main tree dies!
You also want to think about what will happen once the tree does die and eventually falls down. That could be catastrophic for your garden or anything else within the trees fall path.. maybe consider some pruning?
@@justinp1773 30+ feet up and I'm scared of heights lol
Same sort of issue here. I'm thinking of the"kiwi kill" and innoculate the tree with lions mane mushrooms. Would that reduce the danger of the falling tree doing damage?
Forgot to add, I'm using a rope saw to take out the lower branches.
Would you think about putting these guild ideas down in a book with notes on your experience? I love the videos, but a hard copy to refer to would be wonderful.
I appreciate the interest but I am pretty sure I wouldn't be the right person to write a book, just isn't how my brain works!
Do you have a link to your store? I just watched your video on harvesting giant Amaranth and hoped to purchase some if available. Palmyra NY
We don't sell annual seeds, but our nursery is edibleacres.org
We have lots of bare root plants that can be available for local folks this spring!
Are you going to try putting hardy kiwi into your brush wall on the 6 acre property?
I've thought of it but I think it would be too wild and destructive. I think we'll make some distinct and solid trellis structures to associate them to.
@@edibleacres I am trellising hardy kiwi into a cattle panel to be used as a privacy screen around my patio.
You saw it was destructive of the red maple. Why would you expect anything different with another tree? Dah!
Many trees get along with each other well. Forests are so tightly packed. See some of his other guild videos
People make mistakes sometimes, especially when trying new ideas. It's all good. We live and learn.
You are absolutely right! I saw it, saw how rough it was, but thought how cool it was to have such a huge vine so far up in the canopy and got drawn into the idea. It isn't really functional if I care about all the elements!
Kennedy Park, Lenox, Massachusetts. Look into it, if you'd like to see what this ruthless foreign invader will get up to, right behind your back and before your very eyes.
If you will but once plant it, you're imposing it forevermore upon the vulnerable native/victim host landscape.
Not too overwhelmed with your language choices here... But yes, I have seen what happened with that Kiwi. Both destructive but also incredible how much biomass and complexity and soil coverage was there.
I have seen recently a much larger area of destruction down the street from us, generated by 'ruthless foreign invaders', but it's a housing complex for upper class people. I didn't see massive deep deposits of worm castings under it, though. I think as a non-native we all need to be a bit more careful about who gets a pass and who is ruthless...
@@edibleacres
Well, well...So, you've spotted me.👀 I dunno what I was thinkin', when I skipped the presubscription I.Q. qualification test; but, I think I was thinkin' I'd be able to get by, undetected.
I was not so able. Now, here am I, spotted, pinned & identified.😞
Please know that both my language/grammar, as well as my intellect, are entirely remarkable ... in so far as they are remarkably underwhelming; as you have so aptly remarked.🤷🏻♂️
I'm sorry to disappoint. I know I'm shifting your subscription Bell Curve. Probably, it'd be the recommended course, that you should greatly lower your exctations; rather than to hopelessly hope that I should ever sufficiently raise my intellect to any satisfactory minimum standard.
As to foreign, aggressively invasive, fatally destructive, near-indestructible Kiwis: Bad.
O.M.O & Y.M.M.V.