Amplifier Power Tubes: Standard vs. Premium (JJ's & Genalex Gold Lion Reissues)
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
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A few weeks ago, I made a video comparing some EL34 and KT77s from JJ...and as we found, there was barely any difference between them...and certainly nothing that couldn't be compensated for with a tiny adjustment of the amp's controls.
When shopping for those tubes, there was also another question I wanted to answer. JJ's are typically reliable, good sounding, affordable tubes....most amp techs will fit them as standard. But what about the so-called "premium tubes" that cost twice as much? I'm not going to go into NOS tubes today as I think that's a very different conversation. But when buying tubes, is it worth the money to go to the higher priced 'glossy presentation' ones? Is what they say true; or just marketing cobblers trying to get you to part with more money?
So today, I'm going to compare the 'standard' JJ KT77 tubes with some Genalex Gold Lion reissues. They claim these tubes are 'artful' and use premium gold-plated components. But does that actually affect....anything?
What do you think? A tiny difference? Or literally not worth bothering with? Comment below!
Guitars are a Gibson SG Standard w/ OX4 Low-Wind A4 PAFs; a Gibson Les Paul Studio w/ Bare Knuckle Nantucket HSP90s; and a Gibson Les Paul Custom w/ OX4 Hot Duane PAFs. All recorded through a Hughes & Kettner Puretone (Fane Ascension F70 speaker; Aston Spirit Condenser, Shure SM57 & sE R1 ribbon mics) with a Schoeps CMC6 room mic.
0:00 Intro
3:34 Clean
5:48 Low Gain
7:36 Higher Gain
9:23 Outro
joeperkinsmusic
jp@joeperkins.co.uk
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The Lions had a bit more bloom and sustain in the mids through my headphones. Just an extra touch of sparkle in the highs as well.
I’ve had JJ KT88s for nearly 20 years and have always been happy with them but recently changed to the Gold Lions and the difference was not small, huge in fact, in every way I can hear. Bass, mid, treble, imaging, soundstage, noise, micro and macro dynamics, detail etc. The JJs are great tubes and I’d recommend them to anybody but the Gold Lions are something special.
From my point of ear, i consider the Power Stage Tubes as a kind of compressor besides to give an specific voice like the difference between 6L6 and 6V6. It is clear that every piece within an amplifier counts, but if your power tubes is in harmony with the tubes you chose for your preamp and the type of sound that the brand decided to give to that amplifier, magic will happen!
Always been happy with my JJs :)
Listening on an iPhone I was surprised to hear a difference, and thought the Gold lions sounded nicer/more 3D on the clean and medium crunch sounds. I will have another listen through some proper speakers when I can, great test 👍🏻
The JJ’s broke up quicker I noticed under the clean setting and the Gold Lion were very smooth. However, when overdrive was engaged, they seemed almost the same with a slight, very slight difference. If I were to use an overdrive pedal instead of the amps overdrive (which I usually do) I’d definitely go with with the Gold Lion. The cleaner and more headroom the better. I switched my 12ax7’s in my Marshall DSL40C to 12ay7’s for V1, V2, and V3 positions and left the 12ax7 in the phase inverter since it doesn’t affect gain from what I’ve been told. The switch was the deal breaker since I use a Carl Martin Panama to try to get the Brown Sound and it worked!! I also have the EVH 5150 OD pedal which helps in any song Eddie used the Destroyer which had an Alnico 8 magnet, making for heavier distortion.
I bought some Genalex Gold Lion EL84 tubes this month and used them this week in my Hughes & Kettner GrandMeister 40 and I really like them. My Hughes & Kettner came loaded with Shuguang brand of tubes from the factory and they weren't bad sounding but the Genalex Gold Lion tubes sounded more premium in their handling. It made my amplifier sound better than it did from the day I opened up the factory sealed box.
Shuguang tubes are like Hershey chocolate compared with the richer taste of Cadbury chocolate that the Genalex Gold Lion seems to be.
I was rooting for the jjs, but - There’s more separation and tonal qualities present in the Lions than the jjs.
Gold Lions are Definitely less muddy with chords and gain.
Great job! I agree with most here that the differences are pretty slight. Longevity would be the question. In a properly biased amp both should last a long time.
Very helpful, cheers Joe 👍
There is a clarity and richness in the lower mids to the Lions that seem missing in the JJs. I found the JJs a bit "clangy" in the upper mids by comparison, and lacking warmth and punch in the lower mids. I liken the difference to that of a spinet vs a baby grand piano. I really heard the difference at about the 5:05 mark onward. I'm not sure what I'm hearing can be compensated for by EQ, as if feels "deeper" (???) from your recording, though it would be a terrific experiment to see if you CAN compensate for the differences. If anyone is up to the challenge, Perky, it's YOU! Your care, and exactitude are rare on RUclips. Thanks for all you do!
Aha thanks John! I do genuinely think a couple of slight EQ tweaks (and maybe a slight gain adjustment) would get 95% of the way there....especially in the post-mix using a couple of plugins: an EQ with adjustable Q-factors; and maybe a touch of harmonic saturation.
@@JoePerkinsMusic You are probably right, I'm a hopeless tone romantic, I guess. Ha! Not hearing what you heard in the room makes for a different experience on our end, but I'm confident in your assessment. It's true, EQ is a powerful thing!
Thank you for the informative demonstration. As a person new to the tube amplifier(stereo) game, all the terminology and options can be intimidating. As I researched all the options for amplifiers, terms like, muddy, dark, punch down low, bright, dynamic etc…kept coming up. It was hard to know what I liked and what I didn’t. For individuals with discerning ears, it probably means a lot. For me, your demonstration showed that the differences are very slight. Yes when you played individual notes there was a more noticeable change(so for classical music lovers this may be something to think about) but when chords were played, far less noticeable to my ears. I’m not sure I wish my hearing was better or fine the way it is. I don’t want to over analyze music!
I have a 50th anniversary 1 watt DSL combo that the factory tubes went out in. I ordered some Gold Lions, honestly because they were “top of the line”. I can’t give an A/B comparison, but they do sound great! Twice the price kinda great? Maybe. Probably not. I just spent the extra because that amp is a collectors item. If the tubes go out in my 5 year old 40 watt DSL workhorse I’ll probably go with JJ’s.
I could tell the difference between the two until you upped the gain. On low gain, the Gold Lion sound more lively.
I'm listening in a treated room, through a set of ADAM A3X and the difference I am hearing is so negligible that the cost difference, for me at least, would be more towards the durability of the valves rather than the tonal difference.
Completely agree :-)
I put a whole set of the russian gold lions in my AC 15 with the wgs g12c, replacing 3 tungsol 12ax7s and two JJ el84s, and it’s like a different amp. Thickened and warmed it up in a way that didn’t kill the chime, the gain has more grind now as well the response is a bit different and overall the amp just sounds meaner than before. But yeah 270 dollars for a set is pushing it. I had to try them though.
I keep going back to this video when looking up Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I also use Hughes & Kettner. I like the sound of my GrandMeister Deluxe 40 so much more when I got the Genalex Gold Lion power tubes. I'm so tempted to replace the preamp tubes too even though it's not needed right now but I want to upgrade the sound. I'm so hooked on Genalex Gold Lion because they're the Cadbury Creme Eggs of vacuum tubes in my experience. It's like a difference between Mars chocolate and Cadbury chocolate.
Just dove down this tube rabbit hole a few weeks ago. I’m coming to the conclusion that tubes, if quality were all equal are like seasoning. If you know the tone your after and are happy with your guitars pickups and overall like what your amp delivers. certain tubes can add a little more salt or oregano to your amp’s tone if you feel it needs a tweak. I heard the difference in the Gold Lions and I’m currently using a set of JJ 6L6’s so this video was very helpful being that I was looking for an excuse to spend more “gear” money on a set of lions. The lions seemed tighter and brighter and more defined in the mids and highs,especially with the LP. But different pickups or speakers will yield a much bigger difference. Honestly, I’d love to spend a few months comparing dozens of tubes but, I think I’ll revisit the Gold Lion tube question after I’ve settled on a new set of speakers.
I think that's a great way of putting it...fine-tuning the seasoning rather than changing the recipe!
Great video. Thank you.
Nice comparison, you can really hear a difference.
They sound nearly identical to me. The Gold Lions sounded slightly better than the JJ's the more they were cranked, but the difference was minimal. I don't think I'd bother with the Gold Lions unless I had some reason to believe they would last at least twice as long as the JJ's. Since I don't crank a tube amp all that hard and get overdrive and distortion from boosting the signal into the amp's input, I don't see the point of blowing the extra cash on the Gold Lions.
Actually, I don't even have a tube amp at present, my current rig uses a Marshall 3210 Lead 100 MOSFET, so I needn't worry about tubes at all.
Surely one of the biggest reason for choosing these would be to eliminate tube rattle. My brimar cv511 held up for years in a torturous combo, which rattle just about any modern 6v6.
At age 77 I could not hear the difference I have gold lions in my quad 2/40 mono blocks shall buy the Jj next time reason good value Thanks for the demo
Definitely noticeable difference between the two brands. Do they last longer? I wonder what platinum tungsten grid sounds like.
You rock kind sir!
I agree with your assessment...Lions sounded a little nicer clean,but got a bit bloated with gain...JJ's we're tighter,had better grind,and mids more suited to rock... Lions may be better for HiFi applications
The lions were cleaner and more 6l6 sounding, the jj's were dirtier in the mids and sound more el34ish. I've tested a lot of tubes and fixed a lot of amps. Always put jjs in due to the price difference. I might try some gold lions next time I change the tubes in my mesa stiletto trident... 4 years from now lol
Clean, the Gold Lions were more articulate and flat whilst the JJs were closer to breakup with lots of rich lower mid harmonics.
Driven harder the difference was minimal as others have said.
Hi
I think that the Gold Lions have more reverberation, which makes me think that they can work better or worse depending on the team and the associated room.
Best regard
Jonn
What ?!?!
I like the smooth overdrive w the genalex, but mine have either failed or gone noisey too quickly for me to trust them live. I've had noisey 12ax7s, noisey 6v6s, and i had a 6922 fail. So, jj or nos for me.
The difference i hear over youtube seems like it could be achieved. with an eq in the loop. Lifetime and noisfloor are the things that would get me to spend more
I'd bet that you could probably bias the Genelex tubes slightly hotter and they would probably stand up that better. With that being said I bet with the higher bias you would get a fatter bottom end and more sparkling highs.
The Genalex sound more hi fi if you will, like they're made with better components. It's subtle though. For some people it will make absolutely no difference. And for others who can hear the difference it's quite possible they will be the only ones who will which is slightly psychotic. There is a technical term for this. It has to do with spending so much time critically listening to things you start to nitpick the smallest details the average person cannot possibly recognize or hear. The other aspect is longevity. My DR Z Z-Lux needs 2 new tubes. The Doctor put Tung Sol and NOS tube in the preamp. I'm seeing prices around $50-$60 US for the same thing with the Genalex costing more than that a piece. I can definitely see why someone would replace the broken tubes with the premium. They started dying about 6 years in. My amp is full of premium parts and components. In my case I'd say as much as I hate the price I'd lean towards the Genalex. Sans tuning machines my Gibson Les Paul and Fender Telecaster both have premium components too. Thinking about this further I can definitely see this being useful if you use effect pedals and need that extra clarity to cut through the mix if you will. I wouldn't pair it up with Boss though. Again to each their own. Some will have a need, others won't.
JJ's sounded better in mids, a little tighter and less fizzy. The Lions a little congested and fuzzy
JJ have a bit more bottom to my ear.
The biggest change I heard was the Les Paul sounds thicker and fuller than the SG.
I preferred the sound of the gold lions. I would recommend wearing headphones when cracking amps in a small room. I'm 37 and I've had tinnitus every day for the last 5-6 years. I will never be able to hear silence again, only ringing or hissing. Once it happens it's too late to fix it
I usually use small gummy ear plugs when playing loud...can't remember if I did in this video or not! Certainly do nowadays
I like the last tune 😊the gold ones are more low end I like the JJ's better 😊
Overall, JJ's for me. Genalex did sound better on lead. Would have liked to hear how they sounded in a mix.
I’m about to get my 5e3 in and has JJ 6v6 but have some gold lion 6v6s that I might throw in there. But first need to here the amp. Anyone put gold lions in a 5e3? The his demo I liked the gold lions better but it’s a Marshall. Thanks for the great review regardless!
Can't really tell a difference to my ears. I think it comes down more to realizability than anything. I'm putting JJs in my mig 50 that's getting fixed but I usually choose electro harmonix tubes.
Try telling the difference between compressors.
A more meaningful test for any comparison would be which one stands up to more abuse and/or lasts longer.
Gold lion is rounder and fuller
How do kt77 compare with el34B-str tubes? Or svetlana el34 winged C’s? Anyone?
My personal experience with winged C's are they fly very well into nice smooth trigonometric corded curves. Hope this helps!
Original NOS Swetlana SED EL34 Winged C sounded very similar like KT77 Gold Lion. I have 2 sets for my Unison amplifier.
agree with your conclusion same thing. very subtle not worth the marketing hype.JJs and use your amp all the time without worrying about "wasting" your tubes...
I use a Gold Lion ECC83 in V1 of my JCM 900 50 watt, a JJ ECC83 MG in the V2 and an Tung sol 12 ax7 in the v3
I use a Gold Lion ECC83 in V2 of my Laney GH50L and a JJ ECC83 MG in the V3 and a Tung Sol 12ax7 in V4. In V1 which is a Drive boost I use a Tung Sol 12ax7
To get the Power tubes to inter act more, then you use a lower voltage pre amp which Fender uses a 12ay7 to run the reverb and drive the power tubes in the twins and all. So I use the Tung Sol because the JJ drives more Midrange and the Gold Lion is Hotter and would be counter productive in pushing the power tubes.
The Laney Drive Boost could be what ever you favor like a second Gold Lion But I wanted the smoother second Tung Sol in the drive boost.
The Gold Lion was $30 buck but you will notice a difference,
so for you other tube swappers it's just a matter of taste as to where you'd place it.
snake oil for tone might be that a better quality tube might last longer but I doubt it.
I would rather have 2 sets of J/Js than a set of GLs. :)
I know this is an old post but i have to say ive had my marshall plxi amps for 40 years and used telefunken el34 's made in germany i think? But are no longer in production now all branded el34's are maden china russia ore eastern europe and thou made to dofering specs all sound similar i just use what my tech gets at the time of retube nothing sounds like the old telefunken tubes nos stock ? Big $ o the god old days
Late to the party, but I hear absolutely no difference at all between both brands… both sound great. thanks for the interesting test though. 👍
My eyes play tricks on my ears.
When I close my eyes and just listen, much harder to tell?
Gold Lions seem fuller, JJs seem clearer? ..
I don't think in guitar amps there's a whole lot of difference. In home audio there's a fairly substantial difference in good equipment.
The Gold Lions definitely were of higher fidelity...The JJs sounded dull in comparison.
I agree that the sounds are very very similar. I'd probably spend the extra cash for touring rigs jostling in the back of a lorry or van, but save the money if the amp would stay in a climate controlled place.
Can you play Californiacation?
Not well :P
Lions all the way
Hands down the lions win
They’re real close but I do find the jj's to be a bit nasally' like they’re not driving the minds as well
Genenlex
Again, Genalex are the best, above and beyond. It was like turning the bass and mid tone pots down four notches when you swapped to those JJs.
The gold lions sound great but they are very unreliable. I've had a couple fail after 300hours. Best avoided unless for this reason.
I hear a bit more even sound sound in the mids but not much else. But it's Rock music and all about getting a sound to taste not hifi. If it sounds better to the guy playing it then I say ...buy it. I once had a Hiwatt 50 watt and it definitely had more headroom and clarity than my Plexi but it was all about 'different' not better.The only significant difference I ever found was when doing 4 different 12AX7 tubes was I noticed the Mullard I got fatter mids from my 50 watt Plexi.The Mullards are worth having around for recording ..but they are unreliable compared to the JJ's to take to a gig. I find tubes in general are like Overdrive pedals. Put a pedal with the knobs at 12 o'clock if you say WOW! You have something otherwise forget it. The knobs are for refining a great sound not for repairing a bad one.
Sounds like your mouth is struggling with the word “tube”. 🤘
Ah, accents...!!
Mesma coisa.... Quase imperceptível!
Think of a guitar amp as like a human voice for singing. You have your chest voice, head voice plus what you can belt and create distortion on. You push an amp like a voice belting and you can get breakup. The more you push an amp the more shape the distortion has and what is an amp for when having if not pushing it? The amp here goes from almost no breakup to the mildest breakup. That would be like testing people's vocals at conversational volume and loud highstreet conversation volume. What you need is a high contrasting tone with more gain so you can compare the breakup. Because really isn't that what you are paying your money for? Something that sounds better and better as the amp can be pushed and pushed? The signal here and the potential of those valves is being tested with a dribble of signal. If the amp or somewhere in the signal chain you have some attenuation then fair play but I don't hear attenuation. It sounds small but crisp, dialed in for bedroom volumes. I would want to hear this valves bloom a lot more. Plus these are power tubes after all, the tone comes in later from them when thinks get cranked.
It's a 40W non-master volume Plexi circuit turned almost all the way up....trust me, bedroom volumes it wasn't. I knocked pictures off the wall _downstairs_ shooting this one.
@@JoePerkinsMusic yet it still broke up like a cranked fender, ie not much. The distortion idea stands. Plexi circuits can sound a lot more exciting than this with many more harmonic overtones. Eg Phil X. He plays a plexi all day and how he pushes one would be a much better comparison for power tubes. The other option is you could have gone past the sweet spot which some amps have. Another reference of where my ear at is Tim Pierce. Tubes are all about balance of harmonics, body, character, chime etc all at the same time. This vid is pretty thin.
Gold lion sound better
Ahhh yes the old Kinkless Tetrode