Chris, I think you're right, the false floor has something to do with the top bars in the level below. In nature bees can make long combs, and also in Perone hives you see how bees can make massive combs.
Possibly a stupid question, but how reliable is this false floor phenomenon? I am thinking of designing/building a custom hive floor, and being able to use that effect to keep it comb free would actually save me a lot of headache.
my understanding is that the usual practice for warre is to add a box at the bottom and remove the top box with the honey. if false bottom phenomenon causes the bees to stop building down when they encounter the bars at the top of the new bottom box wouldn't it defeat the purpose of adding a box at the bottom and would the bees be subject to swarming because they are out of room?
YES! that is exactly what happens. The Warre hive has been fairly criticized as a "swarm hive" for this very reason. We believe we have almost eliminated this concern with our wax-coated top bars. The was coating we paint on to the comb guide (we theorize) signals to the bees that the space below is usable space. The result is that our hives fill very quickly, and throw very few swarms - compared to our original ventures using this hive design.
I'm curious. In a regular hive you start with the bottom box and they work up. Why dont you start in the bottom box. An if they dont move down cant you just put the top box on the very bottom after they establish and then they will again work up?
Ralph Crabb, what you're describing is basically a level of manipulation that is working against the bee's natural tendency to move to the highest point and build from the top down. The essence of the Warre technique is to allow bees to do what they do, and we as humans should adapt accordingly. In short, you can do all those things you described but there are too many "ifs" associated with that approach vs the apicentric approach of giving them the 3 open boxes and allowing them to do what they want vs what we want. I hope this answered your question.
Ralph, I just read your message again and I better understand what you are asking. In a frameless hive, like the Warre, If you were to take a full box and place it on the bottom and "invite" the girls to build from the bottom up you would experience 1 of 3 possible outcomes 1) they would completely ignore the space above them and never move up. 2) they would build inverted comb which is attached to the topside of the bars in the bottom box and be costructed from bottom to top 3)They would do exactly what you wanted them to do. I did touch on this in a recent video on supering in a Warre. here's the link. Thanks for your question. ruclips.net/video/rXOVA-0NrQE/видео.html
Very much so, i have been working with the other hive boxes for years. I am getting one of your hives this spring and I am excited to try this out. Thanks
IMHO bees likes efficiency. connected vertical space is more preferable. maybe they can not calculate what is beyond, or can not ensure vertical alignment of combs across boxes, or does not like jumping from one frame to another vertically, or to do with properly calculating their honey and brood relative space area planning. if we remove some (say third of the bars in the middle box) leaving the center empty with bars on both sides, will that invite them to grow the middle bar in the top box, through the second box in a vertical space? I do not know, however, Thanks for the video. It is my first time hearing about this hive and its false ceiling issue. just my 2 cents
What’s got me stumped is the entrance is at the bottom of all the boxes ( ground stand level ) and they have to pass up through everything to get to the top box anyway so I’m at a loss why they wouldn’t go past the next set of bars down when they climb over them in the first place to get back up to the top box , the false floor theory seems a bit strange to me , in a langstroth hive the queen puts eggs in upper boxes and lower boxes if given the chance , this is interesting as I have never came across this before.
Actually it happened to me in a double brood box langstroth hive. They even started creating swarm cells in the upper box and I was like those must be a 20 frames full of brood/pollen/honey. But the lower 10 frames of comb were completely empty. Bees just go through them to get to the upper box. I had to rearrange the frames to prevent them from swarming.
@@houssembenabdallah6599 , yes I’m a bit at a loss never had it happen yet , I do know bee keepers will move brood frames up or down to encourage bees to go in the direction they want them to go manipulating the hive , in nature there comb building isn’t usually obstructed with so many objects such as bars in a hive so close together un natural for them , the open cavity below as he mentioned I think is more natural why they build down as they do in the wild , my langstroth hives once a box is full they move up or down when comb is drawn out , no issue for me as yet so all this is interesting indeed , never stop learning with bees ,fascinating.
This was excellent info! Thanks!
Chris, I think you're right, the false floor has something to do with the top bars in the level below. In nature bees can make long combs, and also in Perone hives you see how bees can make massive combs.
Last bottom image. Believe me I keep warre for 10 years now.
“Unlocked those genes” 🤦🏻♂️
Possibly a stupid question, but how reliable is this false floor phenomenon? I am thinking of designing/building a custom hive floor, and being able to use that effect to keep it comb free would actually save me a lot of headache.
my understanding is that the usual practice for warre is to add a box at the bottom and remove the top box with the honey. if false bottom phenomenon causes the bees to stop building down when they encounter the bars at the top of the new bottom box wouldn't it defeat the purpose of adding a box at the bottom and would the bees be subject to swarming because they are out of room?
YES! that is exactly what happens. The Warre hive has been fairly criticized as a "swarm hive" for this very reason. We believe we have almost eliminated this concern with our wax-coated top bars. The was coating we paint on to the comb guide (we theorize) signals to the bees that the space below is usable space. The result is that our hives fill very quickly, and throw very few swarms - compared to our original ventures using this hive design.
I'm curious. In a regular hive you start with the bottom box and they work up. Why dont you start in the bottom box. An if they dont move down cant you just put the top box on the very bottom after they establish and then they will again work up?
Ralph Crabb, what you're describing is basically a level of manipulation that is working against the bee's natural tendency to move to the highest point and build from the top down. The essence of the Warre technique is to allow bees to do what they do, and we as humans should adapt accordingly. In short, you can do all those things you described but there are too many "ifs" associated with that approach vs the apicentric approach of giving them the 3 open boxes and allowing them to do what they want vs what we want. I hope this answered your question.
Ralph, I just read your message again and I better understand what you are asking. In a frameless hive, like the Warre, If you were to take a full box and place it on the bottom and "invite" the girls to build from the bottom up you would experience 1 of 3 possible outcomes
1) they would completely ignore the space above them and never move up.
2) they would build inverted comb which is attached to the topside of the bars in the bottom box and be costructed from bottom to top
3)They would do exactly what you wanted them to do.
I did touch on this in a recent video on supering in a Warre. here's the link. Thanks for your question.
ruclips.net/video/rXOVA-0NrQE/видео.html
Very much so, i have been working with the other hive boxes for years. I am getting one of your hives this spring and I am excited to try this out.
Thanks
IMHO bees likes efficiency. connected vertical space is more preferable. maybe they can not calculate what is beyond, or can not ensure vertical alignment of combs across boxes, or does not like jumping from one frame to another vertically, or to do with properly calculating their honey and brood relative space area planning.
if we remove some (say third of the bars in the middle box) leaving the center empty with bars on both sides, will that invite them to grow the middle bar in the top box, through the second box in a vertical space? I do not know, however, Thanks for the video. It is my first time hearing about this hive and its false ceiling issue.
just my 2 cents
I replaced my Top bars with 1/4 dowling rod. No hesitation anymore building into the next box.
What’s got me stumped is the entrance is at the bottom of all the boxes ( ground stand level ) and they have to pass up through everything to get to the top box anyway so I’m at a loss why they wouldn’t go past the next set of bars down when they climb over them in the first place to get back up to the top box , the false floor theory seems a bit strange to me , in a langstroth hive the queen puts eggs in upper boxes and lower boxes if given the chance , this is interesting as I have never came across this before.
Actually it happened to me in a double brood box langstroth hive. They even started creating swarm cells in the upper box and I was like those must be a 20 frames full of brood/pollen/honey. But the lower 10 frames of comb were completely empty. Bees just go through them to get to the upper box.
I had to rearrange the frames to prevent them from swarming.
@@houssembenabdallah6599 , yes I’m a bit at a loss never had it happen yet , I do know bee keepers will move brood frames up or down to encourage bees to go in the direction they want them to go manipulating the hive , in nature there comb building isn’t usually obstructed with so many objects such as bars in a hive so close together un natural for them , the open cavity below as he mentioned I think is more natural why they build down as they do in the wild , my langstroth hives once a box is full they move up or down when comb is drawn out , no issue for me as yet so all this is interesting indeed , never stop learning with bees ,fascinating.