SSA = Steep Stabilized Approach, is my mantra. Everything you have touched on but keeping it even tighter by not dragging in at low altitudes. I see lots of pilots dragging in under power right over our downtown core at 200' AGL -1.5 miles from the airport. No way they will make it if engine fails. In my PA-18 I fly a 600' AGL downwind 1/4 mi or less from the runway - reduce power and add flaps abeam end of runway - Turn base 1/4 mi or less from end of runway - roll out on final generally about 200' AGL. Never not able to make the field. If windy that will change but not substantially. Keeps me tuned up for the backcountry flying I enjoy. Also, at our uncontrolled airport, I like crossing mid field to enter downwind which gives you great visibility and close to the field.
Thanks for making this! I'm amazed at how large people of patterns flight schools seem to be teaching which is so unsafe from an engine out and traffic avoidance perspective
Thank you for posting. Keep preaching it, all of us, please! 747-sized patterns at uncontrolled fields are absurd and introduces a higher level of danger. In my Cub I pull the carb heat as I am abeam of my touchdown point, then reduce power to idle (and clear based on weather), and begin a constant 180° turn to roll out on the runway and land. So simple, so much fun, and I remain highly visible to others. Too, I can see all around so checking for traffic is easy. Taking off, I cross the end of the runway and begin a 180° turn to join the downwind. Depending on density altitude, downwind is between 600’ and 800’ AGL. I understand that the Army Air Corps developed this type of pattern during WWII so they could rapidly and safely launch and recover planes. I think they were onto something efficient and brilliant. Unfortunately, patterns have suffered from bloat over the years.
I agree with almost everything you said, but a lot of the 141 flight schools end up having super congested patterns, and a tight pattern only accommodates 3 to 4 airplanes, and we often have 6 or more in the pattern. That is the main reason everyone has to extend their legs. It’s safer to fly a bit wider (still within gliding range) and have enough time for the person ahead of you to vacate the runway then it is to keep it tight and close and you’re running into them on final
@@factorypilot99 I don’t disagree. We’ve had five in the pattern at the same time (it’s a 3,000’ strip) and it’s been Ok but felt a little busy. And all we’re experienced pilots flying the same patterns with 180° landing/take-off legs. If there’s a student, we all work around his/her needs and comfort level.
I'm not a pilot but I do read a lot and what you say makes total sense. Sometimes in life you can't be afraid to embrace common sense for obvious reasons in order to achieve self preservation. Never exceed the mechanical limits of your vehicle. Thank you for the sage advice Joe. 😁
Pretty new pilot here, private in April, baby in May, tailwheel in August. Even approaching 30deg of bank in the pattern was a quick way to hear “my controls” during my private. I did the same thing when I did my first tailwheel flight and the instructor asked me if I was afraid of turning the airplane? I banked more, but still flew way too far out for my downwind so… she pulled the power and asked if I could make the field. I could not. I learned more getting my tailwheel endorsement than in all previous dual hours.
My private pilot instructor was an air force pilot and he taught me a circular, tight pattern. Now I’m at a 141 university and we have to fly perfectly rectangular patterns. There are many times where at that 45 degree point or on the base leg, where we probably wouldn’t make the runway if the engine failed. After some practice, I feel like a circular pattern is a smoother turn. As my instructor said, keep the nose down and don’t pull.
Thanks so much for making this video! Energy management is KEY!! Slippery low drag airplanes like Mooneys, etc that don’t give up altitude easily can fly a larger pattern than a J3, but the same rules still apply. I always fly the pattern as if I’m flying a glider, because that’s what the airplane will be if the engine doesn’t cooperate.
Absolutely!. It's one of those things where I can understand some situations/planes require a larger pattern, but when it's the 172's or 152s etc, It gets frustrating, and a lot of times it may not be the Pilots fault, could just be the way they were taught. Law of Primacy
@@Bananasssssssss YES! Frustrating for others and dangerous for them! I’m convinced that some flight schools practice large patterns in order to maximize their profits…
The tower at RAL increased patter distances several years ago due to the large increase in training traffic. Final approach is typically 1.5-2 miles to the runway. Almost a cross country in the Cub and Stearman. 😂 I generally try to stay within a 1/4 mile of the runway during pattern work, and I love it when the towers asks for a short approach! Great video as always.
I think most people end up flying wider patterns because they are taught standard rate turns in the pattern and to be fully stabilized on approach. - making for a wider than ideal pattern.
I can see that. Not sure who would teach standard rate though, that's like 15º of Bank for most small single engine planes, seems very shallow. I like closer to 30º. The problem is I "think" some Pilots are under the impression the longer the final, the more "stable" it'll be but that usually equates to longer landings or too flat of an approach, or their energy management is way off. I see some Pilots on a 2+ mile finals who end up still landing long and having to exit at the end of the runway because their power management is all over the place due to to flying too flat of approach.
You are so right. One year, coming from the south to join the Orange County, NY, pattern for Runway 04. I was three miles out from the runway, and 500 feet above pattern altitude, intending to make a 45-degree entry. One pilot in the pattern complained that someone (I) was in the pattern, going the wrong way (not so). He was on downwind, over two miles from the runway.
Great topic Joe and I agree totally. My CFI taught me that spacings and heights should be meticulously maintained - Climb out at VY, turn crosswind at or just after 500' AGL, maintain heading, spacing height and speed carefully on downwind, turn base abeam 45 deg line intersecting extended runway heading and no further. Following these guidelines will give you both a tight and consistent pattern. I regularly find pilots flying downwind at least a mile beyond my base turn, which is frustrating because then I have to extend mine to keep pattern position and finish up flying 'slow and flat' all the way back to the runway to land.
There is emphasis now on stall spin avoidance base to final so people are being taught gentle turns and a bit more speed, ergo larger patterns. I was taught as you mentioned, be close enough to make the airport on engine loss
Patterns seem to be getting a lot wider. I agree on the tighter pattern and prefer to fly that way. Sometimes it is hard to do with a lot of other aircraft in the pattern at uncontrolled airports and traffic ahead forces a longer downwind to base turn. Generally, regardless if it is in the Tomahawk or a Lance, I keep the runway inside of the wing (1/2 to 3/4 wingspan) on downwind and turn at or before the 45 as you stated.
Yeah, it's kind of like all it takes is one person on the highway to create a traffic jam, lol. One person in the pattern can create a domino effect and make everyones patterns huge.
This is a huge problem. One person makes a long ass downwind and you obviously don’t want to cut inside of them, so you politely extend your downwind to accommodate them. And then it happens to the next person, and the next person, etc.
I started flying smaller patterns during tailwheel training. Had to do three TO/Landings recently with an instructor at the club where I rent since it been more than two months since I'd flown there. Turned base and he commented that I was turning early. I said I like to fly tighter patterns, and if there's and engine failure I'll make the runway.
Couldn’t agree more. 100%. I think another thing to consider where people fail is when to turn base when there is a traffic gaggle in the pattern. Typically after traffic passes your 9 o’clock you should be turning base. This keeps the pattern from growing larger and larger. Many students at first don’t realize the amount of time it actually takes to land. Especially when everyone is doing touch and goes.
Couldn’t agree more. I see people regularly flying 2-2 1/2 mile downind legs turning a 2 mile base in a skyhawk or a 150. It does absolutely nothing but clog up a pattern. Hardly ever will I turn more than a 1/2 mi base. I fly a bonanza. There’s no need to fly a jet pattern. I understand learning but tighten it up as your students skill’s advance. Personally I believe the ability to fly a tighter pattern will make you better at managing your energy as well
I always wondered about this subject when playing games/sims (I know, I know but, I'm a truck driver by trade so real flying eludes me at the moment). I always felt like it was easier to manage the approach keeping it a little high and tight whereas I have a hard time keeping everything on point flying straight and flat on a long approach. The ability to respond effectively to engine loss is definitely a big factor too. Definitely agree with you %100 and if a day comes where I get to do it for real and not on a TV, I'll be utilizing the same philosophy for sure. Love your content!
Dude, get some flight time in at a local airport when you can. I'm also a trucker, and flying is the best thing I've found to not only reinforce/improve my skills on the road, but for overall personal development outside of undergraduate study. Remember 'All Good Kids Love Milk'? Yeah, this stuff is at least to the level, if not better, than the Smith System or any trucking company safety department training at improving situational awareness and operational safety.
I was taught to keep smaller tight patterns. Always keep it where if you lose an engine, you can make the field. I was also taught and confitmed by many old timer pikots ( learned to fly during or just after WW.2 ) if someone is on 2, 3, or 4 mike final, they arent landing, they're on a cross country. Definitely keep pattern tight.
Really agree, this is how I was taught. You always see something like a Cirrus dragging it in on the back side of the power curve, looking like a fool.
Couldn’t agree more Joe. Especially in a very similar airplane. I keep the field halfway down the strut and I usually make crosswind to downwind / downwind to base/final in one turn (pending traffic of course) rather than squaring off all the turns. I feel like it keeps the field within gliding distance at all times
I like a tight pattern too- for sure! Although I did have a CFI once who was big on not turning downwind until you got to pattern altitude… in the 150 it occasionally takes me a little longer to get up there so I’ll happily keep it tight as long as I’m able to get to altitude fast enough to avoid all obstacles
Excellent advice and observation in my opinion. All advice from mentors I had in flying was to keep the pattern tight in accordance with the aircraft capabilities. Keep pattern tight in case of engine problems ( " PLANE " & " SIMPLE " )( ha ! ) I usually carried a little extra airspeed on my downwind to base turn and base to final turn to allow for a little steeper banks, then on the short final adjust airspeed/ altitude with slips or flaps and attitude. Always have a good "attitude" in flying----ha !!!!
I enjoy your content, Joe. Please keep 'em coming. I fly Cessna 180 out of KMWC (Timmerman - Milwaukee). Given the urban environment, it is especially important to remain close to the field. And, flying into Oshkosh every year, you have to 'hit the dot' -- disciplined patterns and approaches are important. Thanks, again.
The 180 is fun -- can be a handful but that's what keeps you focused. Two adults, full fuel and a large lab. Off to a grass strip. Glad to take you up if you are in Milwaukee. @@Bananasssssssss
Thanks for saying this. I'm amazed at how yuge patterns are at my home drome. Lemme rephrase that, while flying my Baron, I'm amazed at how big the patterns are at my home drome. Not all the time, but enough to have the same thoughts as you.
We keep patterns tight at the little grass strip I fly out of. I've only been into two large-ish airports recently (PDK and CCO) and the patterns I saw some of the trainers flying (mainly C-152s and Cherokees) were enormous. Don't know the reason, but it's not good.
I wonder if it starts with the crosswind after takeoff? I see so many student/instructor flights climbing to almost 1000 AGL before starting the crosswind turn! Then flying almost a minute level before turning downwind. When I came back to flying after over 20 years away, I couldn’t figure out quite how to get down the approach from even 500 feet and a 1/2 mile…my CPL training being so recent now, and all of the power off 180s I had to do, keeps me close to 700-800 AGL at 1/2 mile and I can pull out all the flaps and stand on the rudder and still put it within a couple of hundred feet of the threshold…hedging against the day that I absolutely have to
Glider pilots are taught to fly downwind 30 degrees up from the landing runway so pretty tight compared with the power guys we mix with. I guess they figure they're giving us room but when looking for traffic one has to guess how far out they are. And spacing is made harder when they're flying 80 kts to our 55 kts but they're flying twice as far. Sometimes get asked where I am on downwind, well, I'm never further than 2/3's of a mile from the approach end!
I’m a relatively new CFI/II and I did all my training in an accelerated program at the school I teach at now. I was taught not to ever bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern and start the base turn 45 degrees off touchdown zone. I would also prefer to be closer to the airport. I was taught to keep a tighter pattern when practicing power off 180s. My airport gets pretty busy and on average we have at least 5 people in the pattern.
I was taught the same "30* rule" - i understand the premise - dumb it down so anyone can understand. However, reality is as long as you don't load the wing, a steep bank angle is perfectly safe. I'll often exceed 45* in a slipping turn in the pattern - just don't pull back.
I fly at a part 141 school, working on CFI right now. I prefer a smaller pattern, but when it gets very busy (we have like 30 aircraft) and as more people enter the pattern everyone has to start extending legs of the pattern to allow for spacing, then eventually the spacing just becomes the pattern. There’s no limit to how many airplanes can be in a pattern and we will have sometimes 7 or 8+ in the pattern. Also the climb rate at our altitude and with full fuel the climb performance sucks and we want to be around 600 feet or higher before turning crosswind Really it just comes down to smaller patterns only allow for 3 or 4 in the pattern max. Also we have a huge runway which makes the downwind leg super long. In our case we fly diamonds, which even with zero throttle can glide super far so inherently we fly a longer downwind, base and final. It’s easier to fly a super tight pattern in a cub, but in a 100-120 knot airplane with a bunch of idiots in the pattern there’s only so much you can do. When I become a CFI I will try to teach proper patterns as much as I can, but it’s just the nature of these congested flight schools, they do as much as they can having rules about when you can stay in the pattern or not. But at the end of the day you need enough space to allow for people to get off the runway and with 8 planes in the pattern you have to fly it wider
7-8 ac in the pattern is insane 😂 be careful out there. All good points btw. I know theres always a bunch of circumstances that don’t allow for tighter patterns, always good to point out why. Appreciate the insight.
@@Bananasssssssss there’s definitely times that people are flying huge for no reason, that’s always frustrating lol. Always keep the eyes peeled for sure
I've noticed when you're teaching commercial students the power off 180 they soon figure out that anymore than tight patterns are a good thing. I usually let them make that learning on their own when they obviously don't have the runway made.
There is a great quote in Nothing by Chance by Richard Bach. “We had learned that it is not wise to fly a landing pattern so far from the field that we could not glide to the runway if the engine stopped, but at Palmyra, we were alone in our learning. There were long lines of aircraft all over the sky and if all the engines stopped at once, there would be an airplanes down everywhere except on the airport.”
Instructor here. I use AC66C religiously in my lessons on TP. I suspect your experience is due to the surrounding Class D towers frequently extending traffic every lap. So students, and instructors have more experience with extended patterns than not extended patterns. Although, that is speculation.
Traffic permitting, there’s ZERO reason to fly farther from the airport than your engine-out glide distance permits, and there’s no reason to add drag which would prevent you from making it to the runway should the engine quit. Requiring drag to get down is better than requiring power to make it to the runway.
Even in a 172, there is no reason to fly a wide pattern. I can fly just as tight a pattern in a 172 as I can in my Stinson. My uncle flies a Learjet and I have seen him fly tighter patterns than some of these guys. In the Stinson, I pull carb heat midfield and pull power abeam the numbers, and fly most of my approaches as power off 180s. I figure I can always lose the excess altitude if I need to (with a slip, how risky of me!) but I can’t get it back if something happens. Even at my home airport, if certain flight schools show up and do pattern work, I’ll just land and be done for the day, because I don’t want to do pattern work while they are because of how wide they fly their patterns (shoutout to my tower though who will occasionally just give me short approaches when these guys are in the pattern instead of making me extend) At my home airport, normal pattern for 34 is on the west side of the airport. We have terrain on the west and south sides. A wide pattern or extended downwind will put me over terrain and a lot of houses, which is exactly where I don’t want to be. I’ve gotten to the point where at night, I will make right traffic 34 to stay away from the terrain or fly an initial/overhead approach so that I’m not out west over terrain at night on a 45 entry for the downwind. There is zero reason for me to do that. You make a great point about short approaches too. If you are always flying 3 mile wide patterns, can you do a short approach? The answer often times seems to be no, at least in my experience. It’s a great way to learn energy management too. I did my tailwheel endorsement in a J3 and my CFI would, if he thought I was too far from the airport to glide, simulate an engine failure to make a point. Plus, tight patterns and short approaches are just fun to do.
@@Bananasssssssss every time we get a new guy in our tower, they get the same briefing from me, which is “If I am in the Stinson, please just give me a short approach. My normal approaches are what you probably consider a short approach, if you want a shorter short approach, please let me know and I will be happy to oblige” 😂 It’s awesome having an accommodating tower
We learned that you should be able to make the runway from any point in your pattern.....there's no way most (besides guys like us who fly tight taildragger patterns) could do that these days. I'm constantly looking out my right side for someone flying a pattern outside of me.
Deadly advice. Tight patterns can lead to stall spins on base to final turns. The high bank angle in a tighter turn means higher speed coming onto an even shorter final to avoid a stall. Then that speed has to be lost in less time. If there's a base leg tailwind, the pilot will overshoot closer to the runway, bank even more to get back on track and become another statistic. If you're experienced enough to handle this, fine. But don't advise others who may not be.
Pete, this is not deadly advice at all. The problem is lack of basic airmanship. We have to stop teaching to the lowest common denominator, lets ensure every student understands how to fly an airplane rather than teach them to fly huge patterns because they don't understand aerodynamics, load factor etc... Let's take Your sentence "The high Bank angle in a tighter turn means higher speed coming onto an even shorter final to avoid stall". Well rather than teach someone to make large patterns to make up for their lack of situational awareness, lets TEACH THEM TO understand where the wind is coming from and to make that base to final turn early If there is potential to get blown through the centerline, or teach them if they overshoot final to simply Go Around or aim for the numbers as they roll out accepting the overshoot. Also, High Bank angle doesn't lead to anything, but a high Bank angle. TEACH THE STUDENTS that loading up the wing and exceeding the critical angle of Attack stalls a wing, not bank angle, not airspeed, not tighter patterns. You are also suggesting a tighter pattern means higher speed, why? why does a tighter pattern mean higher speed? That doesn't make any sense. Downwind, base, final speed isn't dependent on the size of the pattern. Lastly, You make it seem like I'm suggesting everyone fly a military type circuit where it's one tight oval, I'm simply suggesting to TIGHTEN up the Large patterns that have slowly become standard.
@@Bananasssssssss Survival of the fittest! Fair enough. The tighter pattern doesn't mean higher speed. That's the problem. It's the same speed in a tighter turn. As for increasing rudder and stick as well as awareness, all for it. And the curved fighter approach is actually the best in my opinion. The stats suggest that takeoff stalls are far more common than base to final, which I hope means the message is getting out.
I fly an Aeronca 15AC and a 172. Always tight patterns. I never understood why large patters were a thing unless there was a noise abatement procedure.
I’m for flying a tight pattern. But I want to make all my turns high enough off the ground so that if I encounter a stall spin situation I can recover. Many spins take place when low and slow. I don’t want be low and slow until on final and lined up with the runway.
The only problem is any stall/spin from pattern Altitude statistically is usually unrecoverable and fatal and if you were to stall in the pattern, you're more likely to survive a stall/spin down low then say 1,000ft. I know it seems like a ridiculous comment for me to make, lol but just pointing out some statistical data. (Not saying you or anyone should change anything, just kind of talking out loud)
I was taught to stay close enough to make it back. Recently a couple new young cfi the airport hired are way the heck out there with their students. Bad idea when 80% antiques at my airport have no radio. Last month I had just turned base at .4 nm / 1K' only to see some yahoo a mile or more away on long final dragging themselves in below pattern. Had to turn out and pray nobody behind me was already extending downwind. I've started going back to the barn right quick when I see a lesson go up. Not worth the risk.
Hey great video, I have a dumb question ,but don't low time pilots when there flying the pattern they sometimes have no idea what there doing so trying to do a tight pattern from base to final they up doing an accelerated stall is that the main reason why people do a pattern wide? Thank you appreciate the videos you post!!!!
Not dumb question at all! There is potential if one was to try and make a really tight turn from base to final while pulling back an exceeding the critical Angle of Attack but usually the danger comes from overshooting final which is caused (usually) by not compensating for the wind. Ive seen people fly large patterns and still overshoot final for whatever reason.
I am fortunate to be able to fly midday & mid week when the pattern is empty and I can bang out a bunch of T&Gs. My class D is a very popular training airport for schools from other area airports so evenings and weekends I don't stay in the pattern at all. Too many Cessnas flying Boeing patterns. I don't have enough history to compare to past days. If I had to guess, the instructors may be just trying to max out the hours (1500) versus optimizing the training. With an open pattern, I will ask for early x-wind and short approach. The Archer is so easy to chop, drop and slip so why waste all the fuel and Hobbs time?.
Don’t you guys in the US fly “low height patterns” (500 feet), it is a very tight pattern. Here in france we practice this all the time. It simulates engine problems and landing as soon as possible.
Love Citabria’s first Tailwheel I’ve ever been introduced to. I use an Insta360 and a tailwheel mounted pole. A few months ago I made a video explaining how I do it with all links. Let me know if you can’t find it I’ll get you a link
I learned on a 600 agl TPA. Great. 10-12 touch and goes per hour. Stupid to go to 1,000 agl TPA, then long approaches too. Some CFi's are FOS that only like MIld Maneuvering and try to impose you be a MILD MANEUVERING PILOT only. Ok for an big ariliner Airbus kind, but stupppid for a small airplane.
I was taught to extend the downwind and fly a long final for short field landings to stabilize the approach. I try to convince my instructor that I can stabilize the approach on a normal final but he threatened to beat me over the head with a rubber chicken. 🤷♂
lol, The old Rubber chicken :). That's kind of what I mean. In our Flight Ops Manual we have a long stabilized Approach Criteria for the Bus, but what does your flight school consider a Stabilized approach? My Cub Final Approaches are probably Never truly "Stabilized" by most standards but I'm on speed and down and stopped safely within a few hundred feet where Some planes are "Stabilized" at 500ft but land long. Just kind of thinking out loud
@@BananasssssssssI started my training in the Cub and then moved to the 150. Normal patterns are tight, and our pattern altitude is 800ft, which I believe used to be the standard before the FAA changed it. But for short field landings I was taught to have 1.5 mile final, as opposed to a normal 1/2 to 3/4 mile final, to maintain a stable glide path to the aiming point.
I use Premiere Pro but would suggest using DaVinci Resolve. Not only is it free, but it's better, lol. I'm too lazy to learn it to though. Stuck in my ways with Premiere, lol
Rivertown aviation at KPKB is teaching large patterns and if you ask why the drunk owner says that’s how it’s done son 😂 what a 🍆 I’m in a 170b and don’t need a half mile to reach pattern altitude. They are rude and inconvenient to everyone else!
EVERY FLIGHT SCHOOL NEEDS TO WATCH THIS ! The flight schools need to stop super large fight patterns
SSA = Steep Stabilized Approach, is my mantra. Everything you have touched on but keeping it even tighter by not dragging in at low altitudes. I see lots of pilots dragging in under power right over our downtown core at 200' AGL -1.5 miles from the airport. No way they will make it if engine fails. In my PA-18 I fly a 600' AGL downwind 1/4 mi or less from the runway - reduce power and add flaps abeam end of runway - Turn base 1/4 mi or less from end of runway - roll out on final generally about 200' AGL. Never not able to make the field. If windy that will change but not substantially. Keeps me tuned up for the backcountry flying I enjoy. Also, at our uncontrolled airport, I like crossing mid field to enter downwind which gives you great visibility and close to the field.
Personally I love tight patterns, they are a lot more fun and keep you busier than big patterns. They also force you to manage your energy properly.
Couldn't agree more. Saves time, keeps you proficient, more fun! Literally a WIN, WIN, WIN, lol
Thanks for making this! I'm amazed at how large people of patterns flight schools seem to be teaching which is so unsafe from an engine out and traffic avoidance perspective
Thank you for posting. Keep preaching it, all of us, please!
747-sized patterns at uncontrolled fields are absurd and introduces a higher level of danger.
In my Cub I pull the carb heat as I am abeam of my touchdown point, then reduce power to idle (and clear based on weather), and begin a constant 180° turn to roll out on the runway and land. So simple, so much fun, and I remain highly visible to others. Too, I can see all around so checking for traffic is easy.
Taking off, I cross the end of the runway and begin a 180° turn to join the downwind. Depending on density altitude, downwind is between 600’ and 800’ AGL.
I understand that the Army Air Corps developed this type of pattern during WWII so they could rapidly and safely launch and recover planes. I think they were onto something efficient and brilliant. Unfortunately, patterns have suffered from bloat over the years.
100% I LOVE doing the constant descent, 180º turn from Downwind to Final. So much more efficient, so much more fun, lol
I agree with almost everything you said, but a lot of the 141 flight schools end up having super congested patterns, and a tight pattern only accommodates 3 to 4 airplanes, and we often have 6 or more in the pattern. That is the main reason everyone has to extend their legs. It’s safer to fly a bit wider (still within gliding range) and have enough time for the person ahead of you to vacate the runway then it is to keep it tight and close and you’re running into them on final
@@factorypilot99 good point! Can’t argue with that
@@factorypilot99 I don’t disagree.
We’ve had five in the pattern at the same time (it’s a 3,000’ strip) and it’s been Ok but felt a little busy. And all we’re experienced pilots flying the same patterns with 180° landing/take-off legs. If there’s a student, we all work around his/her needs and comfort level.
I'm not a pilot but I do read a lot and what you say makes total sense. Sometimes in life you can't be afraid to embrace common sense for obvious reasons in order to achieve self preservation. Never exceed the mechanical limits of your vehicle. Thank you for the sage advice Joe. 😁
Pretty new pilot here, private in April, baby in May, tailwheel in August. Even approaching 30deg of bank in the pattern was a quick way to hear “my controls” during my private. I did the same thing when I did my first tailwheel flight and the instructor asked me if I was afraid of turning the airplane? I banked more, but still flew way too far out for my downwind so… she pulled the power and asked if I could make the field. I could not. I learned more getting my tailwheel endorsement than in all previous dual hours.
I’ve been griping about this for years- I call them Space Shuttle patterns. Good video
Love it! Just came to the realization a couple of days ago that I need to tighten my pattern up after some sim engine failures in the pattern
The first thing I do when doing a flight review if pattern looks too big, lol. I pull throttle to Idle and say "surprise!!, lost your engine, lol"
😂 its a good check
My private pilot instructor was an air force pilot and he taught me a circular, tight pattern. Now I’m at a 141 university and we have to fly perfectly rectangular patterns. There are many times where at that 45 degree point or on the base leg, where we probably wouldn’t make the runway if the engine failed. After some practice, I feel like a circular pattern is a smoother turn. As my instructor said, keep the nose down and don’t pull.
I LOVEEEEE doing the circular patterns, It's so much more efficient.
Thanks so much for making this video! Energy management is KEY!! Slippery low drag airplanes like Mooneys, etc that don’t give up altitude easily can fly a larger pattern than a J3, but the same rules still apply. I always fly the pattern as if I’m flying a glider, because that’s what the airplane will be if the engine doesn’t cooperate.
Absolutely!. It's one of those things where I can understand some situations/planes require a larger pattern, but when it's the 172's or 152s etc, It gets frustrating, and a lot of times it may not be the Pilots fault, could just be the way they were taught. Law of Primacy
@@Bananasssssssss YES! Frustrating for others and dangerous for them! I’m convinced that some flight schools practice large patterns in order to maximize their profits…
@@brettphillips8650 wouldn’t surprise me
As a Cub pilot I approve this message
The tower at RAL increased patter distances several years ago due to the large increase in training traffic. Final approach is typically 1.5-2 miles to the runway. Almost a cross country in the Cub and Stearman. 😂 I generally try to stay within a 1/4 mile of the runway during pattern work, and I love it when the towers asks for a short approach! Great video as always.
thanks! yeah it's been a while since I've taken the Cub to a controlled field, lol
I think most people end up flying wider patterns because they are taught standard rate turns in the pattern and to be fully stabilized on approach. - making for a wider than ideal pattern.
I can see that. Not sure who would teach standard rate though, that's like 15º of Bank for most small single engine planes, seems very shallow. I like closer to 30º. The problem is I "think" some Pilots are under the impression the longer the final, the more "stable" it'll be but that usually equates to longer landings or too flat of an approach, or their energy management is way off. I see some Pilots on a 2+ mile finals who end up still landing long and having to exit at the end of the runway because their power management is all over the place due to to flying too flat of approach.
You are so right. One year, coming from the south to join the Orange County, NY, pattern for Runway 04. I was three miles out from the runway, and 500 feet above pattern altitude, intending to make a 45-degree entry. One pilot in the pattern complained that someone (I) was in the pattern, going the wrong way (not so). He was on downwind, over two miles from the runway.
He was basically admitting he flys massive patterns 😂. Great airport btw, haven’t been in years unfortunately
Great topic Joe and I agree totally. My CFI taught me that spacings and heights should be meticulously maintained - Climb out at VY, turn crosswind at or just after 500' AGL, maintain heading, spacing height and speed carefully on downwind, turn base abeam 45 deg line intersecting extended runway heading and no further. Following these guidelines will give you both a tight and consistent pattern. I regularly find pilots flying downwind at least a mile beyond my base turn, which is frustrating because then I have to extend mine to keep pattern position and finish up flying 'slow and flat' all the way back to the runway to land.
Thanks Dave! Yeah it makes doing pattern work tough when it starts to get busy
There is emphasis now on stall spin avoidance base to final so people are being taught gentle turns and a bit more speed, ergo larger patterns. I was taught as you mentioned, be close enough to make the airport on engine loss
Patterns seem to be getting a lot wider. I agree on the tighter pattern and prefer to fly that way. Sometimes it is hard to do with a lot of other aircraft in the pattern at uncontrolled airports and traffic ahead forces a longer downwind to base turn. Generally, regardless if it is in the Tomahawk or a Lance, I keep the runway inside of the wing (1/2 to 3/4 wingspan) on downwind and turn at or before the 45 as you stated.
Yeah, it's kind of like all it takes is one person on the highway to create a traffic jam, lol. One person in the pattern can create a domino effect and make everyones patterns huge.
This is a huge problem. One person makes a long ass downwind and you obviously don’t want to cut inside of them, so you politely extend your downwind to accommodate them. And then it happens to the next person, and the next person, etc.
@@VictoryAviation yup, compounds pretty quickly.
I started flying smaller patterns during tailwheel training. Had to do three TO/Landings recently with an instructor at the club where I rent since it been more than two months since I'd flown there. Turned base and he commented that I was turning early. I said I like to fly tighter patterns, and if there's and engine failure I'll make the runway.
Couldn’t agree more. 100%. I think another thing to consider where people fail is when to turn base when there is a traffic gaggle in the pattern. Typically after traffic passes your 9 o’clock you should be turning base. This keeps the pattern from growing larger and larger. Many students at first don’t realize the amount of time it actually takes to land. Especially when everyone is doing touch and goes.
good point.
Couldn’t agree more. I see people regularly flying 2-2 1/2 mile downind legs turning a 2 mile base in a skyhawk or a 150. It does absolutely nothing but clog up a pattern. Hardly ever will I turn more than a 1/2 mi base. I fly a bonanza. There’s no need to fly a jet pattern. I understand learning but tighten it up as your students skill’s advance. Personally I believe the ability to fly a tighter pattern will make you better at managing your energy as well
100%. I don't think a lot of students realize that really long finals make it much harder to make a nice landing.
I haven’t watched the vid yet, but I saw the title and said OH HELL YES!
😂😂😂😂
I always wondered about this subject when playing games/sims (I know, I know but, I'm a truck driver by trade so real flying eludes me at the moment). I always felt like it was easier to manage the approach keeping it a little high and tight whereas I have a hard time keeping everything on point flying straight and flat on a long approach. The ability to respond effectively to engine loss is definitely a big factor too. Definitely agree with you %100 and if a day comes where I get to do it for real and not on a TV, I'll be utilizing the same philosophy for sure.
Love your content!
Dude, get some flight time in at a local airport when you can. I'm also a trucker, and flying is the best thing I've found to not only reinforce/improve my skills on the road, but for overall personal development outside of undergraduate study.
Remember 'All Good Kids Love Milk'? Yeah, this stuff is at least to the level, if not better, than the Smith System or any trucking company safety department training at improving situational awareness and operational safety.
This is exactly what happens. Long Finals almost always make poor landings, poor energy management etc
I was taught to keep smaller tight patterns. Always keep it where if you lose an engine, you can make the field.
I was also taught and confitmed by many old timer pikots ( learned to fly during or just after WW.2 ) if someone is on 2, 3, or 4 mike final, they arent landing, they're on a cross country.
Definitely keep pattern tight.
Thanks for putting a full pattern video together based on my comment. This was really helpful to visually see downwind to base - More please!
Glad it was helpful!
Really agree, this is how I was taught. You always see something like a Cirrus dragging it in on the back side of the power curve, looking like a fool.
I love the point of view out the front without a person, you can see soooo well, thank you, never seen it like that before, Love it! thank you
My pleasure!
Couldn’t agree more Joe. Especially in a very similar airplane. I keep the field halfway down the strut and I usually make crosswind to downwind / downwind to base/final in one turn (pending traffic of course) rather than squaring off all the turns. I feel like it keeps the field within gliding distance at all times
I LOVE the constant descent 180º turn from Downwind to Final. So much more efficient
I like a tight pattern too- for sure! Although I did have a CFI once who was big on not turning downwind until you got to pattern altitude… in the 150 it occasionally takes me a little longer to get up there so I’ll happily keep it tight as long as I’m able to get to altitude fast enough to avoid all obstacles
Excellent advice and observation in my opinion. All advice from mentors I had in flying was to keep the pattern tight in accordance with the aircraft capabilities. Keep pattern tight in case of engine problems ( " PLANE " & " SIMPLE " )( ha ! ) I usually carried a little extra airspeed on my downwind to base turn and base to final turn to allow for a little steeper banks, then on the short final adjust airspeed/ altitude with slips or flaps and attitude. Always have a good "attitude" in flying----ha !!!!
I enjoy your content, Joe. Please keep 'em coming. I fly Cessna 180 out of KMWC (Timmerman - Milwaukee). Given the urban environment, it is especially important to remain close to the field. And, flying into Oshkosh every year, you have to 'hit the dot' -- disciplined patterns and approaches are important. Thanks, again.
Thanks! and the goal is to one day have a 180 in the Hangar! must be nice to fly something with all that power and ability to carry something, lol
The 180 is fun -- can be a handful but that's what keeps you focused. Two adults, full fuel and a large lab. Off to a grass strip. Glad to take you up if you are in Milwaukee. @@Bananasssssssss
@@dougfisher7197 thank you!
Thanks for saying this. I'm amazed at how yuge patterns are at my home drome. Lemme rephrase that, while flying my Baron, I'm amazed at how big the patterns are at my home drome. Not all the time, but enough to have the same thoughts as you.
I think it's gotten progressively worse because larger patterns kind of mask some Pilots lack of stick & Rudder Skill.
We keep patterns tight at the little grass strip I fly out of. I've only been into two large-ish airports recently (PDK and CCO) and the patterns I saw some of the trainers flying (mainly C-152s and Cherokees) were enormous. Don't know the reason, but it's not good.
I wonder if it starts with the crosswind after takeoff? I see so many student/instructor flights climbing to almost 1000 AGL before starting the crosswind turn! Then flying almost a minute level before turning downwind. When I came back to flying after over 20 years away, I couldn’t figure out quite how to get down the approach from even 500 feet and a 1/2 mile…my CPL training being so recent now, and all of the power off 180s I had to do, keeps me close to 700-800 AGL at 1/2 mile and I can pull out all the flaps and stand on the rudder and still put it within a couple of hundred feet of the threshold…hedging against the day that I absolutely have to
Nailed it. I think this is exactly where the problem is starting to happen.
my instructor put me on 500 ft circuits , taught me a lot
Same. That’s the perfect altitude for me in the Cub., lol
You sir are the cub whisperer! I learned in a7ac champ, every pattern was cub tight
Glider pilots are taught to fly downwind 30 degrees up from the landing runway so pretty tight compared with the power guys we mix with. I guess they figure they're giving us room but when looking for traffic one has to guess how far out they are. And spacing is made harder when they're flying 80 kts to our 55 kts but they're flying twice as far. Sometimes get asked where I am on downwind, well, I'm never further than 2/3's of a mile from the approach end!
I need to get up in a Glider. can almost guarantee that teaches ya how to really fly and manage energy, lol
Good advice. I like it! Believe it or not years ago we did 800 feet agl traffics with the A320... not now obviously with the need to stabilized.
Haha that’s awesome, id love an 800ft pattern, lol.
As an ATC please stop flying upwinds over 1 mile off the departure end.
HA! Thank you! you guys/gals prefer shorter vs larger patterns? or just depends. I assume shorter but I never know
I’m a relatively new CFI/II and I did all my training in an accelerated program at the school I teach at now. I was taught not to ever bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern and start the base turn 45 degrees off touchdown zone. I would also prefer to be closer to the airport. I was taught to keep a tighter pattern when practicing power off 180s. My airport gets pretty busy and on average we have at least 5 people in the pattern.
Yeah it gets tough when pattern is busy.
I was taught the same "30* rule" - i understand the premise - dumb it down so anyone can understand. However, reality is as long as you don't load the wing, a steep bank angle is perfectly safe. I'll often exceed 45* in a slipping turn in the pattern - just don't pull back.
@@prodigalpilot exactly!
I fly at a part 141 school, working on CFI right now. I prefer a smaller pattern, but when it gets very busy (we have like 30 aircraft) and as more people enter the pattern everyone has to start extending legs of the pattern to allow for spacing, then eventually the spacing just becomes the pattern. There’s no limit to how many airplanes can be in a pattern and we will have sometimes 7 or 8+ in the pattern. Also the climb rate at our altitude and with full fuel the climb performance sucks and we want to be around 600 feet or higher before turning crosswind
Really it just comes down to smaller patterns only allow for 3 or 4 in the pattern max. Also we have a huge runway which makes the downwind leg super long. In our case we fly diamonds, which even with zero throttle can glide super far so inherently we fly a longer downwind, base and final. It’s easier to fly a super tight pattern in a cub, but in a 100-120 knot airplane with a bunch of idiots in the pattern there’s only so much you can do.
When I become a CFI I will try to teach proper patterns as much as I can, but it’s just the nature of these congested flight schools, they do as much as they can having rules about when you can stay in the pattern or not. But at the end of the day you need enough space to allow for people to get off the runway and with 8 planes in the pattern you have to fly it wider
7-8 ac in the pattern is insane 😂 be careful out there. All good points btw. I know theres always a bunch of circumstances that don’t allow for tighter patterns, always good to point out why. Appreciate the insight.
@@Bananasssssssss there’s definitely times that people are flying huge for no reason, that’s always frustrating lol. Always keep the eyes peeled for sure
I've noticed when you're teaching commercial students the power off 180 they soon figure out that anymore than tight patterns are a good thing. I usually let them make that learning on their own when they obviously don't have the runway made.
Great Video! Thank You
There is a great quote in Nothing by Chance by Richard Bach. “We had learned that it is not wise to fly a landing pattern so far from the field that we could not glide to the runway if the engine stopped, but at Palmyra, we were alone in our learning. There were long lines of aircraft all over the sky and if all the engines stopped at once, there would be an airplanes down everywhere except on the airport.”
Instructor here. I use AC66C religiously in my lessons on TP. I suspect your experience is due to the surrounding Class D towers frequently extending traffic every lap. So students, and instructors have more experience with extended patterns than not extended patterns. Although, that is speculation.
I think its just from poor instruction and pretending to play airliner in a SE airplane
@@Bananasssssssss That is fair.
Well said Joe
Traffic permitting, there’s ZERO reason to fly farther from the airport than your engine-out glide distance permits, and there’s no reason to add drag which would prevent you from making it to the runway should the engine quit. Requiring drag to get down is better than requiring power to make it to the runway.
Even in a 172, there is no reason to fly a wide pattern. I can fly just as tight a pattern in a 172 as I can in my Stinson. My uncle flies a Learjet and I have seen him fly tighter patterns than some of these guys. In the Stinson, I pull carb heat midfield and pull power abeam the numbers, and fly most of my approaches as power off 180s. I figure I can always lose the excess altitude if I need to (with a slip, how risky of me!) but I can’t get it back if something happens. Even at my home airport, if certain flight schools show up and do pattern work, I’ll just land and be done for the day, because I don’t want to do pattern work while they are because of how wide they fly their patterns (shoutout to my tower though who will occasionally just give me short approaches when these guys are in the pattern instead of making me extend)
At my home airport, normal pattern for 34 is on the west side of the airport. We have terrain on the west and south sides. A wide pattern or extended downwind will put me over terrain and a lot of houses, which is exactly where I don’t want to be. I’ve gotten to the point where at night, I will make right traffic 34 to stay away from the terrain or fly an initial/overhead approach so that I’m not out west over terrain at night on a 45 entry for the downwind. There is zero reason for me to do that.
You make a great point about short approaches too. If you are always flying 3 mile wide patterns, can you do a short approach? The answer often times seems to be no, at least in my experience. It’s a great way to learn energy management too. I did my tailwheel endorsement in a J3 and my CFI would, if he thought I was too far from the airport to glide, simulate an engine failure to make a point. Plus, tight patterns and short approaches are just fun to do.
99% of my patterns are basically power off 180°s as well 😂
@@Bananasssssssss every time we get a new guy in our tower, they get the same briefing from me, which is “If I am in the Stinson, please just give me a short approach. My normal approaches are what you probably consider a short approach, if you want a shorter short approach, please let me know and I will be happy to oblige” 😂 It’s awesome having an accommodating tower
I'm here for this. Cue comments stating that high bank angles will kill you.
We learned that you should be able to make the runway from any point in your pattern.....there's no way most (besides guys like us who fly tight taildragger patterns) could do that these days. I'm constantly looking out my right side for someone flying a pattern outside of me.
Yup. I guess the good thing is we’re less likely to have a midair on Downwind because most traffic is further out
Deadly advice. Tight patterns can lead to stall spins on base to final turns. The high bank angle in a tighter turn means higher speed coming onto an even shorter final to avoid a stall. Then that speed has to be lost in less time. If there's a base leg tailwind, the pilot will overshoot closer to the runway, bank even more to get back on track and become another statistic. If you're experienced enough to handle this, fine. But don't advise others who may not be.
Pete, this is not deadly advice at all. The problem is lack of basic airmanship. We have to stop teaching to the lowest common denominator, lets ensure every student understands how to fly an airplane rather than teach them to fly huge patterns because they don't understand aerodynamics, load factor etc... Let's take Your sentence "The high Bank angle in a tighter turn means higher speed coming onto an even shorter final to avoid stall". Well rather than teach someone to make large patterns to make up for their lack of situational awareness, lets TEACH THEM TO understand where the wind is coming from and to make that base to final turn early If there is potential to get blown through the centerline, or teach them if they overshoot final to simply Go Around or aim for the numbers as they roll out accepting the overshoot. Also, High Bank angle doesn't lead to anything, but a high Bank angle. TEACH THE STUDENTS that loading up the wing and exceeding the critical angle of Attack stalls a wing, not bank angle, not airspeed, not tighter patterns. You are also suggesting a tighter pattern means higher speed, why? why does a tighter pattern mean higher speed? That doesn't make any sense. Downwind, base, final speed isn't dependent on the size of the pattern. Lastly, You make it seem like I'm suggesting everyone fly a military type circuit where it's one tight oval, I'm simply suggesting to TIGHTEN up the Large patterns that have slowly become standard.
Came here to say this, but ya beat me to it.@@Bananasssssssss
@@Bananasssssssss Survival of the fittest! Fair enough. The tighter pattern doesn't mean higher speed. That's the problem. It's the same speed in a tighter turn. As for increasing rudder and stick as well as awareness, all for it. And the curved fighter approach is actually the best in my opinion. The stats suggest that takeoff stalls are far more common than base to final, which I hope means the message is getting out.
I fly an Aeronca 15AC and a 172. Always tight patterns. I never understood why large patters were a thing unless there was a noise abatement procedure.
I think these large patterns are being taught to compensate for the lack of basic Stick & Rudder skills
Copy that sir! Our old wood and fabric planes are 100% stick and rudder. I'm thankful I started out in a TW Pacer.
I’m for flying a tight pattern. But I want to make all my turns high enough off the ground so that if I encounter a stall spin situation I can recover. Many spins take place when low and slow. I don’t want be low and slow until on final and lined up with the runway.
The only problem is any stall/spin from pattern Altitude statistically is usually unrecoverable and fatal and if you were to stall in the pattern, you're more likely to survive a stall/spin down low then say 1,000ft. I know it seems like a ridiculous comment for me to make, lol but just pointing out some statistical data. (Not saying you or anyone should change anything, just kind of talking out loud)
Just don't load the wing, let the nose fall in the turn.
@@prodigalpilot couldn’t have said it any better. As soon as I turn crosswind I’m immediately unloading the wing. Well said 👍🏻
I fly super tight patterns in my Highlander
I was taught to stay close enough to make it back. Recently a couple new young cfi the airport hired are way the heck out there with their students. Bad idea when 80% antiques at my airport have no radio. Last month I had just turned base at .4 nm / 1K' only to see some yahoo a mile or more away on long final dragging themselves in below pattern. Had to turn out and pray nobody behind me was already extending downwind. I've started going back to the barn right quick when I see a lesson go up. Not worth the risk.
Might be instructors and students not spending the extra time and money to tighten their pattern
Yes. So sick of following people around mini cross countries in the pattern.
Where possible.
I flew such that I could make the field, dead stick.
Good practice.
Announce your position.
Hey great video, I have a dumb question ,but don't low time pilots when there flying the pattern they sometimes have no idea what there doing so trying to do a tight pattern from base to final they up doing an accelerated stall is that the main reason why people do a pattern wide?
Thank you appreciate the videos you post!!!!
Not dumb question at all! There is potential if one was to try and make a really tight turn from base to final while pulling back an exceeding the critical Angle of Attack but usually the danger comes from overshooting final which is caused (usually) by not compensating for the wind. Ive seen people fly large patterns and still overshoot final for whatever reason.
I am fortunate to be able to fly midday & mid week when the pattern is empty and I can bang out a bunch of T&Gs. My class D is a very popular training airport for schools from other area airports so evenings and weekends I don't stay in the pattern at all. Too many Cessnas flying Boeing patterns. I don't have enough history to compare to past days. If I had to guess, the instructors may be just trying to max out the hours (1500) versus optimizing the training. With an open pattern, I will ask for early x-wind and short approach. The Archer is so easy to chop, drop and slip so why waste all the fuel and Hobbs time?.
I think the 1500hr thing is definitely an issue with some CFI's More about quantity than quality. (for some, not all of course)
Don’t you guys in the US fly “low height patterns” (500 feet), it is a very tight pattern. Here in france we practice this all the time. It simulates engine problems and landing as soon as possible.
I'm being taught tight patterns in a Citabria. How do you get shots from behind the airplane in this video?
Love Citabria’s first Tailwheel I’ve ever been introduced to. I use an Insta360 and a tailwheel mounted pole. A few months ago I made a video explaining how I do it with all links. Let me know if you can’t find it I’ll get you a link
I learned on a 600 agl TPA. Great. 10-12 touch and goes per hour. Stupid to go to 1,000 agl TPA, then long approaches too. Some CFi's are FOS that only like MIld Maneuvering and try to impose you be a MILD MANEUVERING PILOT only. Ok for an big ariliner Airbus kind, but stupppid for a small airplane.
I was taught to extend the downwind and fly a long final for short field landings to stabilize the approach. I try to convince my instructor that I can stabilize the approach on a normal final but he threatened to beat me over the head with a rubber chicken. 🤷♂
lol, The old Rubber chicken :). That's kind of what I mean. In our Flight Ops Manual we have a long stabilized Approach Criteria for the Bus, but what does your flight school consider a Stabilized approach? My Cub Final Approaches are probably Never truly "Stabilized" by most standards but I'm on speed and down and stopped safely within a few hundred feet where Some planes are "Stabilized" at 500ft but land long. Just kind of thinking out loud
@@BananasssssssssI started my training in the Cub and then moved to the 150. Normal patterns are tight, and our pattern altitude is 800ft, which I believe used to be the standard before the FAA changed it. But for short field landings I was taught to have 1.5 mile final, as opposed to a normal 1/2 to 3/4 mile final, to maintain a stable glide path to the aiming point.
This is going to piss off some college CFIs 🤣🤣
Preach!!! 👍🏾
Thank you!!
Do you use final cut, premiere or a different video editing software? At some point I will need to go beyond iMovie…
I use Premiere Pro but would suggest using DaVinci Resolve. Not only is it free, but it's better, lol. I'm too lazy to learn it to though. Stuck in my ways with Premiere, lol
Resolve is worth the learning curve!@@Bananasssssssss
Tight Patterns are safe. It fucking aggravates me when the ATP student enters the pattern and fly's a 737 pattern and ruins it for the rest of us.
You dont need so much room and altitude and time to get stabilized. Only mediocre pilots need that.
MPSA 😂❤
Pfft.. Dude is worried about making it back to the runway. Do you even CAPS brah?
😂😂😂😂
Rivertown aviation at KPKB is teaching large patterns and if you ask why the drunk owner says that’s how it’s done son 😂 what a 🍆
I’m in a 170b and don’t need a half mile to reach pattern altitude. They are rude and inconvenient to everyone else!