Dave, i hope you do more videos like this. Its really nice to see you being productive like this and there is A LOT knowledge in there. I would wish for the future, you would do more projects from the ground up, showing all the details. Looking forward to the routing episode :)
Love the new 'project' series like this and the Pi Cluster one, you showing a professional approach to kind of silly problems! The uC ones were nice, but a bit dry for me as a casual viewer. Hope to see a lot more of these projects
I knew nothing about Altium, I took a basic course from Robert Feranec, I will recommend anyone to take he's course, its fantastic seriously! Its hard to understand how to use two programs with limited time, choose one and try and master it.
I work at a design center for a company that produces semiconductors for RF applications. I do software development for them and entered with 0 knowledge of the IC world. Oh man is verification a serious thing. Every day I hear all about DRC/ERC/LVS/LUP/XOR/ANT/Stress/Density/Data Extent verification results. It's also cool to actually see what running an ERC can look like since I'm often dealing with the results rather than the process.
Even on hobbyist boards, ERCs have saved me from making some very stupid mistakes. Great video, would love to see more like this (maybe one on DRC as well to go with?)
Hobbyist PCB usually means paying for it out of my own pocket and waiting a couple of weeks to get it made somewhere where I can afford it. I'd say that is plenty of motivation to do some basic checks. ;-)
20 seconds into the vid... nope. gonna be way too above my level to begin to comprehend. i shall return, but in the meantime i shall learn. thanks dave :)
Good video Dave. It annoys the hell outta me when engineers just fudge the ERC by placing ERC suppression parameter sets on all the pins that cause errors.
Do any schematic packages distinguish between "power" grounds and "signal" grounds. In something like a 4 layer board, I would like the power to be on the planes inside, but the signals (if I need to alter them) to be outside. The same goes for Vcc/Vdd as well.
Why check design from output job file ? Right click proj/sch, compile all, and the message box will update with all warning/errors, no need to go to output job file for that. Bobs your uncle.
ERC reminds me a lot of the validation that automatically occurs when you compile & synthesise a VHDL design for an FPGA or similar. I am assuming that it is basically the same general idea. I don't honestly know why anyone would want to even breadboard a design before having one's tools run a sanity check on it :)
I would guess lots of layers, tedious routing, intricate blind vias and other amenities better left to autorouters. Think about it: there's not really a lot of choice into layout in a motherboard, what you can really do for increasing its quality is choosing good components.
Peter Bočan I guess it takes multiple company departments fully loaded with people to work out a single motherboard. There are so much complicated things on there. The length of the data lines are critical for timing, the CPU has 200 connections, all those memory slots, pci-e slots, and much more.
Yea that's true, a good knowledge of high frequency circuit design is essential, definitely not a work for single person. Of course there are simulators for HF and such but that won't interchanges with brain
Why can't Altium have a reasonably priced version of Altium for hobbyists/makers? I'm in the transition from hobbyist to actually start selling stuff and is stuck with Eagle...
Altium Circuit Studio is pretty well priced for what it is, if they made a fourth tier above circuit maker and below circuit studio then the feature set would have to be restricted too much and then eagle would be better anyway.
I may go to this. But for right now I use Express PCB and Express SHC for my boards and or schematics. I made up a flipper board schematic for my pinball machine I am working on. Allthough for now I am going to use Open Pinball Project's boards until I can make up my own and etch the copper clad myself. And not knowing much although I have learned a lot from repairing Pinball Machines that I own I have a better idea of how to get a board to work in my game. xD I am hoping to have it up and going so I can stick it out and see how well it does.
If you are wondering why the ERC didn't find a problem, I'm not sure. But the 3.3V connection on the microcontroller is an output. It is regulated from the 5V power input.
Do you guys have any hints on an easy to use tool with an okay library support for a hobbyist or on how to start using a pro tool? I personally have tried out a whole bunch of tools (Eagle, KiCAD, Diptrace, Target and what not), but for a home gamer like me doing only one-off thru-hole boards for home use every once in a while all these tools are just too complicated, I just can't figure out how to use these convoluted beasts. My problem with most of these tools: the GUI is not intuitive (ie drives you crazy) and you never find the (jelly bean) components you need. At the moment I am stuck with Sprint Layout, which is more like a "Paint.exe" for PCBs, but without all the Schematics glory. Works great, but you don't have any schematics of course, so the overall use is quite limited...
One of my profesors forced us to use OrCAD tools ,which i find usefull for schematic and simulation but making pcb was pain in the ... because we had only last two classes dedicated to PCB design (he actualy requested from us to manualy write netlist on paper,and then type it instead placing and connecting components,optimising circuit on paper drawing some tables),so when we did our final project my colleagues and I ended up using various tools becouse none of us knew how to get right footprints and assign them to the components. If I remember correctly I've used ExpressPCB,which you can find online for free and finished my PCB in less than an hour. Personaly I like Altium.Using it for more than year now,got ton of libraries ( of course I don't have genuine license becoues of crappy country can't invest some money in education or at least arrange some discount),even learned how to create own libraries,and make footprints pretty fast.
All of them have step learning curve if you have no experience, because it's a complicated field. The only way to figure out which one to use is watch hours of tutorials on each - I spent a couple weeks watching tutorials on KiCad, Eagle, Fritzing - . Dave tried to use KiCad without the tutorials and was hopeless, I watched the tutorials and knew more than him after a couple of hours - I was screaming at the screen and I only had 4 months total electronics experience -.
KiCAD is my favorite. I prefer compiling the dev build to get the latest features, but the current stable release it good too. Any EDA CAD program is going to take some time to learn though. Some are easier than others. It took me about a day of watching youtube videos and messing around to learn KiCAD. Most of the boards I make are small with 1 or 2 layers. I often have a finished board in my hand within a couple hours of starting the design. You will never find an EDA CAD program with all the part libraries that you need. You will always end up needing a part where you will have to make a schematic symbol and pcb footprint. You can find some libraries on line, but are you really going to trust that they are correct? By the time you finish verifying it, you could have just make it yourself.
I've used many different schematic capture programs over the years, and recently was introduced to Altium. All I can say is "what a load of crap!" Everything you need to do requires so much convoluted ways to get anything done. Plus, it crashes whenever possible, and the help file is for 3 revisions earlier, or you get the 'coming soon, notice. WTH? Even trying to print a schematic page requires bending over backwards. That is IF it decides that it's not going to popup a useless error message and lock up the system. I would take Eagle over Altium any day. Even OrCad with all its foibles at least doesnt crash and take all your hard work with it.
Do you have a recent Altium version? I use it more or less full time every day and the last crash has to be some weeks ago. Haven't had much trouble for the last couple of years. You usually can 'take notice' of a crash when it happens, save the file and restart the program an go on with working. Crashing was really bad ~5 years ago, but not a single time I lost a design file. It also never locked up my system. Doesn't relly sound like typical Altium-trouble to me. Maybe try a clean re-install? Eagle is like MS Paint with a 1995 style user interface. Horrible and painful to use. Not as painful as Cadstar, but almost. ^^
You miss the case, altium is not dedicated for designing your jellybean power amplifier but for big companies who design whole computers and such, it's capable of doing whole CAD process
Altium is much user friendly than high end PCB design softwares (from Mentor Graphic or Cadence Allegro which are usual choice for designs like motherboards). Also Altium have best price for capabilities its offer (Allegro cost 5 times more) so it is best choice for middle and less demanding big companies which do not need "high end" software.
Brad As I saw Altium is most popular PCB software in use (in Europe), and most companies I know of use it, with exception really big ones (which use Cadence or Mentor Graphic) and really small/hobby (which use some free solution). Contrary is Altium Tasking C compiler which I didnt saw anyone use it, and I heard that is among best compilers for ARM microcontrollers (it should be little behind IAR and in class with Keil). Protel (last time I used it Altium was still called Protel) was Australian company, now I do not know is anything changed.
What do you mean? Too big cost or too much functionality? On the one hand, I hate when people tend to use extremely simplified soft for doing schematics and PCBs. Here in ex-USSR countries Sprint Layout is very popular along makers, which is in fact an evil, I believe. No connectivity-control, no even a connection between schematic and routing, no package libraries, no concept of part and package, nothing. But hobbyists love to say: "I don't need all of that, leave it to professionals". I think it's terrible bullshit: everyone who routes a PCB, no matter hobbyist or a professional, needs to be provided with good software with all of that mandatory (in my opinion) stuff like connectivity control, DRC, routing hints, integration with schematic editor, trace classes (power/signal/etc), 3D visualization (to check if it's hard to assemble board by hand, because sometimes you put part too close to let solder tip reach its terminals). On the other hand, a few years ago I have tried to use Altium a bit. I can just say that I have no idea how one can even use it. Slow as hell, UI is entangled, some of obvious usage patterns do not work here. Either I missed some key functions/settings and modes which can make it comfortable to work within Altium, or it was not-so-successful release of Altium, or... I don't know... you have to have some special condition of mind to work in Altium :-P
Everything really depends on what are you doing and how serious it is, I always sticked with Eagle for my small projects and it has been enough for me, not that Altium wouldn't more useful, of course I'd like to have 3D visualization, but you know, I didn't need it for single home-made PCB :P
That's what people with experience say, but think about the guy starting off, who doesn't even know what a resistor is, and Altuim seams a couple orders of magnitude more complex than they will ever need, or would need for at least a couple of years. It a struggle staring from nothing, like I did 1 year ago, and making the crash zone shorter helps. I think I could handle Altium now, but I still would only use, or ever need, 10% of it's capabilities.
Well, Altium had some bad versions like 9.xx that were quite buggy. But I allways found it to be quit easy to use for the basic functions. I got the student version in college and had my first little board routed after a rainy weekend. Using it professionally these days, I can teach someone how to use it on a basic level in maybe 2 days. (Library handling: scm symbols and pbc footprints, how to draw Schematic, push to PCB, route, make production files and check them in CAMTASTIC) Try that with other packages like PADS, OrCAD or CADSTAR. Probably looking at a 2 week commercial workshop to do the same. ^^
Unfortunately this is a high-end channel and what I notice is that high-end users only think high-end, it's why Dave always pushes a 10K workshop, even for a beginner. Beginners aren't really catered for here, except for that $330 workshop video, but high-end users forget what it was like when they started, and trust me no one is going to buy 1-2K software for a hobby that they might not continue. I can teach primary school kids Fritzing in a couple of hour, because it is a graphical representation of what is in front of them, where as Altium has things like a million reports that a hobbyist will never use.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Dave, i hope you do more videos like this. Its really nice to see you being productive like this and there is A LOT knowledge in there. I would wish for the future, you would do more projects from the ground up, showing all the details. Looking forward to the routing episode :)
These videos are great, I would love to see more schematic and PCB stuff like this. Thanks for sharing this :)
Love the new 'project' series like this and the Pi Cluster one, you showing a professional approach to kind of silly problems! The uC ones were nice, but a bit dry for me as a casual viewer. Hope to see a lot more of these projects
I knew nothing about Altium, I took a basic course from Robert Feranec, I will recommend anyone to take he's course, its fantastic seriously! Its hard to understand how to use two programs with limited time, choose one and try and master it.
I work at a design center for a company that produces semiconductors for RF applications. I do software development for them and entered with 0 knowledge of the IC world. Oh man is verification a serious thing. Every day I hear all about DRC/ERC/LVS/LUP/XOR/ANT/Stress/Density/Data Extent verification results.
It's also cool to actually see what running an ERC can look like since I'm often dealing with the results rather than the process.
Wow Dave, such an extensive and powerful package you have there.
True for that company ERC/DRC pre-set rule check....boss always wanted a "clean" ERC/DRC first.
Even on hobbyist boards, ERCs have saved me from making some very stupid mistakes. Great video, would love to see more like this (maybe one on DRC as well to go with?)
Hobbyist PCB usually means paying for it out of my own pocket and waiting a couple of weeks to get it made somewhere where I can afford it.
I'd say that is plenty of motivation to do some basic checks. ;-)
20 seconds into the vid... nope. gonna be way too above my level to begin to comprehend. i shall return, but in the meantime i shall learn. thanks dave :)
Good video Dave. It annoys the hell outta me when engineers just fudge the ERC by placing ERC suppression parameter sets on all the pins that cause errors.
Do any schematic packages distinguish between "power" grounds and "signal" grounds. In something like a 4 layer board, I would like the power to be on the planes inside, but the signals (if I need to alter them) to be outside. The same goes for Vcc/Vdd as well.
Look like you still have that bug where the most bottom inverter is U14A instead of U12F
Well spotted, pvc988.
nice thanks for this, i wonder pads sowftware has any advantage in erc (vs altium)
Why check design from output job file ? Right click proj/sch,
compile all, and the message box will update with all warning/errors,
no need to go to output job file for that. Bobs your uncle.
ERC reminds me a lot of the validation that automatically occurs when you compile & synthesise a VHDL design for an FPGA or similar. I am assuming that it is basically the same general idea.
I don't honestly know why anyone would want to even breadboard a design before having one's tools run a sanity check on it :)
When uSupply and other projects get finished?
A fantastic program, I wish I had a copy.
ossiebird0 Then get one?
it costs like 10 grand lol xD
although there is a $1000 version of it called circuit studio, still not something you just buy on a whim lol
CircuitMaker is Altium and free, it's just that it's all online.
Altium Designer or Circuit Maker?
Hey Dave, I wonder... what does it take to make a custom PC motherboard? I am just wondering, nothing serious coming in any way, shape or form...
I would guess lots of layers, tedious routing, intricate blind vias and other amenities better left to autorouters. Think about it: there's not really a lot of choice into layout in a motherboard, what you can really do for increasing its quality is choosing good components.
Peter Bočan I guess it takes multiple company departments fully loaded with people to work out a single motherboard. There are so much complicated things on there. The length of the data lines are critical for timing, the CPU has 200 connections, all those memory slots, pci-e slots, and much more.
Yea that's true, a good knowledge of high frequency circuit design is essential, definitely not a work for single person. Of course there are simulators for HF and such but that won't interchanges with brain
CPU with 200 connections? What about the LGA2011 Socket? (little hint, it has 2011 Pins)
Robin Cerny That's even a bit more indeed. I was just guessing a number :-)
Why can't Altium have a reasonably priced version of Altium for hobbyists/makers? I'm in the transition from hobbyist to actually start selling stuff and is stuck with Eagle...
Altium Circuit Studio is pretty well priced for what it is, if they made a fourth tier above circuit maker and below circuit studio then the feature set would have to be restricted too much and then eagle would be better anyway.
Can you actually tell me what's the difference between Altium designer, circuit studio and circuit maker?
Try Altium Circuit Studio, sub $1k
Circuit Maker is FREE
AD/CS Comparison here
www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-76216/l/circuitstudio-by-altium-vs-altium-designer-feature-and-specification-comparison
Thanks EEVblog
And is Circuit Maker free equivalent of AD or CS?
I didn't know that you could update the schematics directly from the library.
I may go to this.
But for right now I use Express PCB and Express SHC for my boards and or schematics.
I made up a flipper board schematic for my pinball machine I am working on.
Allthough for now I am going to use Open Pinball Project's boards until I can make up my own and etch the copper clad myself.
And not knowing much although I have learned a lot from repairing Pinball Machines that I own I have a better idea of how to get a board to work in my game. xD
I am hoping to have it up and going so I can stick it out and see how well it does.
@EEVBlog: maybe I'm missing something, but no 3.3V regulator/voltage source for the WiFi module?
If you are wondering why the ERC didn't find a problem, I'm not sure. But the 3.3V connection on the microcontroller is an output. It is regulated from the 5V power input.
That 3.3V pin is an output, the module has a built-in regulator. Dave mentions that in the previous video I think.
GeckonCZ Doh, I assumed it was an input. I must have missed the sentence where it was said that the pin was an output.
Is that a substitute for LTSpice?
LTSpice is just a simulator, this is a full electronics design package which actually includes a spice simulator (as do other cad packages i think)
Might have to install Windows someday. Damn Altium. Come to the 'light side'!
TheWP Nothing wrong with Windows. With anything else than Windows or Mac you aren't going to get very far in business life.
yeah... of course... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Public_servers_on_the_Internet
Now you are referring to webservers. Something 99% of business life has nothing to do with.
that great!
Do you guys have any hints on an easy to use tool with an okay library support for a hobbyist or on how to start using a pro tool? I personally have tried out a whole bunch of tools (Eagle, KiCAD, Diptrace, Target and what not), but for a home gamer like me doing only one-off thru-hole boards for home use every once in a while all these tools are just too complicated, I just can't figure out how to use these convoluted beasts. My problem with most of these tools: the GUI is not intuitive (ie drives you crazy) and you never find the (jelly bean) components you need. At the moment I am stuck with Sprint Layout, which is more like a "Paint.exe" for PCBs, but without all the Schematics glory. Works great, but you don't have any schematics of course, so the overall use is quite limited...
Are you looking to create PCBs or just create your diagrams (to print, ...)?
One of my profesors forced us to use OrCAD tools ,which i find usefull for schematic and simulation but making pcb was pain in the ... because we had only last two classes dedicated to PCB design (he actualy requested from us to manualy write netlist on paper,and then type it instead placing and connecting components,optimising circuit on paper drawing some tables),so when we did our final project my colleagues and I ended up using various tools becouse none of us knew how to get right footprints and assign them to the components.
If I remember correctly I've used ExpressPCB,which you can find online for free and finished my PCB in less than an hour.
Personaly I like Altium.Using it for more than year now,got ton of libraries ( of course I don't have genuine license becoues of crappy country can't invest some money in education or at least arrange some discount),even learned how to create own libraries,and make footprints pretty fast.
Have you tried Multisim 14?
All of them have step learning curve if you have no experience, because it's a complicated field. The only way to figure out which one to use is watch hours of tutorials on each - I spent a couple weeks watching tutorials on KiCad, Eagle, Fritzing - . Dave tried to use KiCad without the tutorials and was hopeless, I watched the tutorials and knew more than him after a couple of hours - I was screaming at the screen and I only had 4 months total electronics experience -.
KiCAD is my favorite. I prefer compiling the dev build to get the latest features, but the current stable release it good too.
Any EDA CAD program is going to take some time to learn though. Some are easier than others. It took me about a day of watching youtube videos and messing around to learn KiCAD.
Most of the boards I make are small with 1 or 2 layers. I often have a finished board in my hand within a couple hours of starting the design.
You will never find an EDA CAD program with all the part libraries that you need. You will always end up needing a part where you will have to make a schematic symbol and pcb footprint.
You can find some libraries on line, but are you really going to trust that they are correct? By the time you finish verifying it, you could have just make it yourself.
Haha - I saw the menu bug and thought, "Oh, he must be running Altium 17..."
Not to mention Windows 7 *shudder*
i will give it a bow
I've used many different schematic capture programs over the years, and recently was introduced to Altium. All I can say is "what a load of crap!" Everything you need to do requires so much convoluted ways to get anything done. Plus, it crashes whenever possible, and the help file is for 3 revisions earlier, or you get the 'coming soon, notice. WTH? Even trying to print a schematic page requires bending over backwards. That is IF it decides that it's not going to popup a useless error message and lock up the system. I would take Eagle over Altium any day. Even OrCad with all its foibles at least doesnt crash and take all your hard work with it.
Do you have a recent Altium version?
I use it more or less full time every day and the last crash has to be some weeks ago. Haven't had much trouble for the last couple of years. You usually can 'take notice' of a crash when it happens, save the file and restart the program an go on with working. Crashing was really bad ~5 years ago, but not a single time I lost a design file. It also never locked up my system. Doesn't relly sound like typical Altium-trouble to me. Maybe try a clean re-install?
Eagle is like MS Paint with a 1995 style user interface. Horrible and painful to use. Not as painful as Cadstar, but almost. ^^
That application has a problem with a lot of bugs... or level 8 errors dont know
Very interesting...PEACE
Altium, continuing to make simple tasks pointlessly complicated ;)
You miss the case, altium is not dedicated for designing your jellybean power amplifier but for big companies who design whole computers and such, it's capable of doing whole CAD process
I don't get why these programs are so hard to interface. I'm a hobbyist so....
Altium is much user friendly than high end PCB design softwares (from Mentor Graphic or Cadence Allegro which are usual choice for designs like motherboards).
Also Altium have best price for capabilities its offer (Allegro cost 5 times more) so it is best choice for middle and less demanding big companies which do not need "high end" software.
Miloš Lazović Wait a second, altium is AUSTRALIAN!? Is altium widely used?
Brad
As I saw Altium is most popular PCB software in use (in Europe), and most companies I know of use it, with exception really big ones (which use Cadence or Mentor Graphic) and really small/hobby (which use some free solution). Contrary is Altium Tasking C compiler which I didnt saw anyone use it, and I heard that is among best compilers for ARM microcontrollers (it should be little behind IAR and in class with Keil).
Protel (last time I used it Altium was still called Protel) was Australian company, now I do not know is anything changed.
The more I see of Altium, the more it seams too much for the hobbyist. I have a 100 component project and it seams too much for that.
What do you mean? Too big cost or too much functionality?
On the one hand, I hate when people tend to use extremely simplified soft for doing schematics and PCBs. Here in ex-USSR countries Sprint Layout is very popular along makers, which is in fact an evil, I believe. No connectivity-control, no even a connection between schematic and routing, no package libraries, no concept of part and package, nothing. But hobbyists love to say: "I don't need all of that, leave it to professionals". I think it's terrible bullshit: everyone who routes a PCB, no matter hobbyist or a professional, needs to be provided with good software with all of that mandatory (in my opinion) stuff like connectivity control, DRC, routing hints, integration with schematic editor, trace classes (power/signal/etc), 3D visualization (to check if it's hard to assemble board by hand, because sometimes you put part too close to let solder tip reach its terminals).
On the other hand, a few years ago I have tried to use Altium a bit. I can just say that I have no idea how one can even use it. Slow as hell, UI is entangled, some of obvious usage patterns do not work here. Either I missed some key functions/settings and modes which can make it comfortable to work within Altium, or it was not-so-successful release of Altium, or... I don't know... you have to have some special condition of mind to work in Altium :-P
Everything really depends on what are you doing and how serious it is, I always sticked with Eagle for my small projects and it has been enough for me, not that Altium wouldn't more useful, of course I'd like to have 3D visualization, but you know, I didn't need it for single home-made PCB :P
That's what people with experience say, but think about the guy starting off, who doesn't even know what a resistor is, and Altuim seams a couple orders of magnitude more complex than they will ever need, or would need for at least a couple of years. It a struggle staring from nothing, like I did 1 year ago, and making the crash zone shorter helps. I think I could handle Altium now, but I still would only use, or ever need, 10% of it's capabilities.
Well, Altium had some bad versions like 9.xx that were quite buggy.
But I allways found it to be quit easy to use for the basic functions.
I got the student version in college and had my first little board routed after a rainy weekend.
Using it professionally these days, I can teach someone how to use it on a basic level in maybe 2 days. (Library handling: scm symbols and pbc footprints, how to draw Schematic, push to PCB, route, make production files and check them in CAMTASTIC)
Try that with other packages like PADS, OrCAD or CADSTAR. Probably looking at a 2 week commercial workshop to do the same. ^^
Unfortunately this is a high-end channel and what I notice is that high-end users only think high-end, it's why Dave always pushes a 10K workshop, even for a beginner. Beginners aren't really catered for here, except for that $330 workshop video, but high-end users forget what it was like when they started, and trust me no one is going to buy 1-2K software for a hobby that they might not continue. I can teach primary school kids Fritzing in a couple of hour, because it is a graphical representation of what is in front of them, where as Altium has things like a million reports that a hobbyist will never use.