Now that I'm retired, my time is basically worth nothing, so the set-up math doesn't work for me. And even if it did, I look at restoring old tools as a recreational activity, so I'm not really working anyway. I love the Stanley Bailey and the well-made clones. I've got a Stanley Bailey and a Millers Falls Bailey clone. Bailey was a tool-making genius.
Me personally, i like it when it comes to tunning up the hand planes. Its fun, and lets me know the reason it works as good as it does, is because of me.
Time and labor doesn't count when restoring and adjusting tools to fit your standards- that is the fun in it all, getting your tools personalized. These things are done when it's raining and cold outside with a cup of coffee, instead of wasting life watching TV.
This really depends, I have a two year old and an infant and don't have a lot of shop time. I would rather be working on my projects rather than spending a whole day restoring my tools... If I was retired and had all the time in the world sure, no big deal. With working full time and family life some of us want to work on projects and not have to worry about messing with our tools.
I think most people got that. For me I don't mind restoring a plane, if that is the project I am working on. But if I need a tool to just get to work, I am not going to scour ebay, and spend hours restoring. I want to get something that will quickly get me to work. I too have a 7 mo old and a 3 year old, my time is worth way more that $15 an hour. I've gotta draw the line somewhere, I restore antique tools as almost a separate hobby from woodworking. It is awesome to have those old tools around though.
Your time is only worth $15 per hour IF you are paid for the time. Your off-time is worth $0 per hour. Unless we're talking about intangible benefits like enjoyment, time with family, and the like. Then why use dollars at all to represent value of time?
I appreciate that he gave time estimates. The truth is, I always put a dollar value on my time because I can pick up extra shifts. I will restore my Stanley, because it was my grandfather's, but if it weren't and I'd rather get started on a project ASAP that needed a good place - I could see the case for the veritas.
I have 5 or 6 old planes two of them are Stanley's I love them. I have a couple of others and they are good too but not quite as good as the Stanley. any time i spend time in the shop is a plus. I retired from the trades over 10 years ago so needing them to produce products is no longer a need. someone gave me a Stanley Handyman plane the other day, it is ok but I doubt I will ever use it for much. Veritas is very nice but I prefer the adjustments of the Stanley. The only reason I would buy a Veritas plane is if I was building furniture as a business or someone other product that needed me to finish the wood quickly. either a stanley or a veritas plane will yield a nice product.
Great comparison. I like the way you calculated time into the equation. For serious hobbyists or people whose shop time is very limited, that's a big factor.
Ya I realized that in the comments, and after a little more research. Turns out the post war bedrocks had access to the frog screw through the lever cap so no, not a bedrock. Not that this would've changed the value much since second hand bedrocks fetch quite a premium.
Well said. Too much RUclips fed snobbery going on with hand tool workers these days. Novice amateurs looking down their noses at somebody because they think something less than a tool-porn-star grade item is for plebs.
Thank you for the side-by-side examination. I'm just now venturing into hand planes. This is a valuable lesson. Again, thanks....keep the chips flying!
Hello Bill. Yes, Mr. Sellers is one of the first #Woodworking RUclipsrs I stumbled upon. Great wealth of direct knowledge and experience. Thank you for the recommendation. #KeepTheChipsFlying!
Hmmm... At $15 an hour I just spent $3.25 watching a video on planes. I think the time factor really only comes into play when an item is going to be sold. It's good to figure out a starting price. I could spend 3-4 hours restoring a plane that would otherwise be wasted. End result I have a new tool that will probably out live me.
Very good video. I was impressed with the Veritas but when it really comes down to it if the sole doesn't flex and it is flat then they all will perform. The real mark with me is how easy they are to maintain. The original setup is only a one time cost in labor after that it is only maintaining.
Interesting video. I have the Veritas #4. Fantastic plane, great shavings. But for the cost, I could have better spent on multiple used planes. It sits in it's box after only being played with when I got it. I have refurbished a few Stanley's. Depending on the until condition, I'd say there is probably an average of 2-3 man hours into each, which includes rust removal, flattening, repainting (if necessary), polishing, refinishing tote and knob, and sharpening the blade. I recently bought the newer HF #33 plane and converted it to a scrub. Just removed all the extra grease and sharpening the blade was all it needed to be a scrub. 30 minutes of work. In the end, I'd say that my Stanley smoothers are on par with the capability of my Veritas.
I have a Bedrock, and a Bailey smoother (the one in this video), a HF, and a cheap modern Stanley. I like the Veritas more, but I like to tinker and fiddle and I trust the machining a lot more in every direction. But there are certainly things the Bedrock is better at, it also weighs a lot less.
I love old Stanley tools, maybe simply because I grew up around them; something Stanley relies on with product loyalty. However, leaving parts soaking overnight is hardly putting time and effort into setting it up. What gets added on next? The shipping time from the Ebay seller? Be fair. Thanks for a great video :-)
Great roundup. I like putting the value in dollars like that. I do a lot of calculating in dollar per hour in other things I do to justify time. Since I have limited shop time it makes sense to always be working and not maintaining since I'm expected to turn around my home projects quicker. This may also get me better tools in the end!
I love collecting and restoring old planes and I do use some of my cheaper restored ones, but it's real hard to beat a nice veritas or lie-Nielsen hand plane.
End grain? More like edge grain. Interesting, but I'd say the Veritas wasn't much better than the Harbor Freight plane. It's all in flatness and sharpness and theoretically, any plane can be made into a great plane. I use Lie Neilsen myself.
The first plane I ever bought was a corrugated Stanley No. 4. I got it at a flea market for $5. I always thought fettling plane soles was BS. After I fixed up a basket case Stanley No. 2 with a busted body I still think I was right. Because even it works with a big dent in the sole. For a dollar that was some plane fixing project.
Try waxing the sole of the plane with just a few strokes of Gulfwax for canning. It makes a huge difference and does not cause problems with gluing. Alternatively, some people do a quick wipedown with 3-in-1 oil on the sole. Try it, you'll like it. I also fiddled around with a Kolbalt from Lowes. It's a 4-1/2 size, and although it looks good, the chipbreaker was very badly shaped and ground, and the metal was of low quality. I probably should have returned itfor my $30, but. in the end I replaced the chipbreaker with one from a junked Stanley and now it works properly.
I tend to use a beeswax "crayon" on the bottom of my soles. It works amazingly. I want to make the old oil soaked rag in a can deal, I have heard it is really good at preventing rust. I have heard about the one from the blue store. I haven't personally tried it, but a lot of people like their block plane. I am thinking about doing a future shootout with those guys.
You will find using citric acid to derust will work much better. Citric acid powder is used for pickle making, lots of grocery stores carry it. 5# bags are on Amazon for $10
I have a doubt, Smootheness depends uopn the balde sharpness and of course the angle of the plane and the weight of the planner.Then why do we need different brand of planers.Can not we have a same brand of different length?
Nice review! I'm a twenty year "Home Depot-ish" carpenter of average skill level. I'm just getting into trying to make better use of hand tools and I appreciate your breakdown. What made the Veritas so much better? Adjustable throat? Flatter sole? I'm not afraid to be seen in Harbor Freight but I'd rather spend money when it's worth it. Thanks.
The Veritas is so much better, in that the sole if pre flattened, the blade is thicker (less chatter), and the adjustable throat. I also prefer the Norris adjustment mechanism to the Stanley-Bailey mechanism. More precise and consistent.
What made the Veritas so much better? Choice-supportive bias. Choice-supportive bias or post-purchase rationalization is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected and/or to demote the forgone options. It is part of Cognitive science, and is a distinct cognitive bias that occurs once a decision is made.
I mainly use Record and Stanley planes, though I do have a No. 7 Faithful jointer which is surprisingly good. I do enjoy getting an old rusty plane and making it mine, I’d almost pay cash for the privilege of doing it. The Stanley and Records have done many great craftsmen well over the last century, Paul Sellers uses nothing else. Saying all that, unwrapping the Veritas was one of the sexiest things I've seen on RUclips, is that an indicator I’m old and sad? Probably. It is an amazing plane, though I’m not sure many hobbyist would spend over £2k on a Jointer, Jack, 2 x #4, 2 block planes. Though to a professional it’s an investment, which will repay him many times over. I thought it was a very fair contest this one, and I’m sure we would all love the Veritas. When you are a professional your values are different than us amateurs. To an amateur spending hours getting that old knackered Stanley shaving just right is truly a labour of love. To a professional time is money. A great video, thank you for making it.
You wont see a chippie (carpenter) or shopfitter in the UK using a Veritas, they would have a Stanley or Record preferably a 4 1/2 although the no. 4 is OK. Bench joiners might go for a Veritas or a Clifton or even a Norris, But in the shop the Stanley or Record is still king, in various numbers although jointers are rare because of the power planers/thicknessers. I dont know about cabinet makers so i cant comment there
Rick, another great video. I loved the way you compared value of tuning time... it really put it in perspective for me. Made me rethink the "value" of cheaper planes. ... not to mention $15/hr is probably a pretty low/conservative estimate for us weekend warriors that place a premium on our free time.
vmitchinson People will tell you that the new ones are junk. 98% of those people have never used one. They are just repeating what others say. I have three planes that are my most used. A 4, 4 1/2, and a 5. The 4 and 4 1/2 are new. The number 5 is a 1918 Stanley. There is no performance difference between them. The new Stanleys needed a slight sole flattening, sharpen the blade and adjust the fit of the cap iron. All up, about 30 minutes work. My new ones are both English made. I don't know about the ones sold in the US that are made in Mexico.
I think you're all looking at it wrong. You need the HF plane to learn how to deal with a beater and all the things that can go wrong. It also helps you appreciate the advantages of the Stanley #4. The Stanley is a workhorse, and you can make a living off of it. Once you've really learned it, he can feel the wood beneath it and make it do whatever you need it to do. But the Veritas, or in my case the Lie Nielsen, so precisely milled and heavy in the hand. Those shavings just jump off as if the plane is doing all the work. It's a thing of beauty. It's like driving a Bently after a lifetime of Toyotas. Every man or woman should experience all of them.
You can improve the function of the Stanley and harbor freight with a hock iron and chipbreaker for 70 or 80 bucks depending on whether you get carbon steel or a2 steel. Then you can get end grain shavings like the veritas, but the veritas is still heavier.
Ya for sure, the sole on the HF plane is too thin, light, and flexible. The Alchemists among us could probably try hardening it with a heat treat. An old Stanley certainly benefits from an iron upgrade but this brings the price dangerously close to a really good plane like the Woodriver with a lot tighter tolerances. Unless you are just into the romantic appeal of using grandad's planes.
I have never personally used one, but the design looks very similar to the Stanley design, I would suppose after setup it work similarly, but I would bet the sole would take a lot more work...
That’s a Bailey, not a Bedrock. The Bedrock have pins in the frog going down and 2 screws on either side of the frog adjustment screw which lock in with those pins and allow you to move the frog without having to take the blade/chipbreaker/cap lever off. The Bedrock generally have squared off sides too.
Haha I just spent a day bidding on eBay.. but I got a shoulder plane a block plane a no5 jack and no4 smoothing plane for less than the price of a varitas... and the block plane was a lie Nielsen too... so let’s see what we can do with all those tools!
NICE SCORE! For a hobbyist the time of restoration doesn't really play into it. But when you score those kinds of quality tools you don't need to worry about all that. I was just sort of getting at the fact that you don't NEED to spend 150$ worth of time to restore a 30$ tool. For me as a dad, and with a full time job, time is much more valuable than money.
I find veritas waaaayyyy over priced...all the high priced planes are too expensive...waayyy too expensive.....it's all about HOW you flatten the soles..if you lap them 100% by hand it can take an eternity....it chips away a lot of time by roughing it on a good old belt sander(maybe 5-10 min) followed up by @15 min of lapping by hand(this is worst case scenario)...the issue I do have with the less expensive planes is the thickness of the body, the blade quality and the blade advance(often a lot of play)...but still I appreciate your approach to the shootout, time is money and the way you calculated the price along side you personal time investment is very very relevant...I myself cannot afford a high quality plane...and it is difficult to get a used record/stanley no.4 here in germnay..so I learned the good old fashioned way...trial and error. I own 3 cheap planes and have used a restored stanley no.4 and I have to say...you can absolutely tune a cheap plane to be a good plane...but you have to know what a good plane is first :) as always this is the internet and I hope this does not come off as offensive, just another idiots perspective..take care and thanks for your two cents :)
I do use a belt sand when a plane is way out of flat, I actually used it on the HF plane. If that was the only issue with the HF it would have taken the same amount of time as the Stanley. The problem with it is the lateral adjustment mechanism and the chip breaker (they just don't work) fiddling with them took so much time. The body was of course the cheapo steel as well, but for the price I could've lived with that. With the lateral adjustment mechanism the tool was just not useful for the purpose I wanted to use it for and I gave it away after this video. I agree with you though the Stanley gets you 95% the way there, with the Veritas though the adjustable and thus narrower throat allows you to do true finishing work, on some easier to prepare species of wood (Walnut, Cypress, Fir) you don't even need to sand afterwards. It also has the retention screw so you don't have to square the blade every time, and the Norris adjuster is much more repeatable and reliable than the Stanley/Record style. Is it worth the money/time? That is up to you.
Justin, the advanced design effort and exceptional manufacturing quality are but two of the reasons they cost more than other makers' planes. However the more important issue related to cost is that they are less expensive than Lie-Nielsen planes, and, dramatically less so than boutique planes. To my way of thinking, they are excellent value hand tools.
Justin As an owner of a variety of planes, Stanley, Bailey and Bedrock, Record, Woodriver (a well made Chinese knockoff of a Bedrock), Veritas, Lie Nielsen, just to name a few. The main difference is the Cost of the handplane which is a straight reflection of the manufacturing Quality. Out of the Box, nothing beats a Lie Nielsen or a Veritas, with a few minutes of protective layer and a few minutes on "final polishing" the blade (if you want too) both will cut sub 0.001 inch or 0.0254 mm shavings in hard wood or soft, the LN has a thicker blade and it's heavier. In any other plane, you'll have to invest time (and maybe new blade) into bringing it to a reasonable ability to shave as well as those two names described, still, not going to be the same feel... If you ever drove a Fiat and an S type Mercedes, you'll understand... If you're a serious wood worker, invest in the best, it "hurts" only once! If you're not, don't buy expensive, unless money is not an object. IMHO.
That is not a Bedrock. And the HF is not a copy of a Bedrock. Takes me one hour to completely flatten and tune almost any old Stanley. So not knocking the VERITAS, it is excellent, but I will stick with old Stanley.
That I agree its a $20 plane and made with cheap soft metal that won't last. I prefer the Stanley planes type 17-19 for the quality of steel and ease of use. I also have true Bedrocks, which are a whole other animal. Properly tuned they work flawlessly. Where planes of the VERITAS type separate themselves is the blade and chip breaker (not to mention machining). You can upgrade any Stanley with a Hock blade and breaker to make them better. Now your getting to the point of imbalance. Bedrock on eBay is around 125, Hock blade and breaker 60, then your time. This is still under the new premium planes offered but not by much.
I actually have two bedrock planes on their way right now for a future video. I appreciate the insight. This was my first real video, I had a little diarrhea of the mouth when talking about the different planes. I knew that one wasn't a bedrock, but now I will know what makes a Bedrocks so much different.
+Jon Woodworker I have a couple bedrockss coming for review. That was more of an on camera mistake... Ya I guess if you didn't want to clean off the rust and address whatever needs to be addressed you could get most planes into being a "user" in a couple hours.
Damn you can buy a new stanley sweetheart for what hock wants for an a2 tool steel blade and chip breaker.... fuck that! By the time you upgraded an old stanley you could damn near just buy a woodriver.
Best way to get rid of shellac, wax, and decades of dirt from wood is: Denatured alcohol with No.00 steelwool. It makes this process so easy. Like the vinegar rust removal solution. Just a tip. Have a good day fellow.
I wrote No.00 steelwool but maybe a coarser would work faster.There is a video about wooden plane restoration at the "Woodworking Masterclass" chanel. I really love his videos and his accent too :)
All valid considerations and I agree with your assessments, except for one thing... How in hell do you spend 15 or 20 hours adjusting a plane? Even when I do it all by hand it doesn't take more than an hour. If I use a belt sander or disc sander for initial flattening, then use power-sharpening tools for the irons, that time is cut in half or more. Except for rust removal ( which isn't an issue on new tools) how do you figure 20 hours to set up a plane????
+Learner-Learns because the frog adjustment machanism on the HF is garbage. It always cocks out of square. Most of the time was spent tweaking that and trying to get consistent shaving. Also the steel on the chip breaker is too thin and buckls under the force of the plane, eventually allowing chips to slip under it.
+Graham Orm I did but the steel on the ship breaker is too flimsy. I guess I could have heat treated it, but that didn't seem worth my time/money. The adjustment lever makes all this a mute point though. The whole plane assembly is so flimsy/out if square even cocked all the way to one side or the other the blade is still not square to the sole.
Interesting comparison here, however, in all fairness, the Varitas #4 & Stanley's newest #4 12-136 smoother planer would have given the Varitas a better run for the money imo... Also the newer Stanley incorporates much the same features found in the Varita, almost, not quite. I really like that older Stanley however, a real keeper for sure... Thanks... :-)
No, that's is not what makes a plane part of the Bedrock series. That is merely the Bailey adjustment mechanism. Bedrock planes are mainly distinguished by the frog adjustment mechanism and the flattened tops of the usual rounded sides. www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm
It's even more complex than that. Stanley BedRocks are cast on a slight incline where the frog seats, milled on each side to form a channel so that the frog stays perfectly aligned to the sole when the frog is adjusted. After 1911, the rear adjustment screw is added (with locking T-bolts so the frog can be adjusted without removing the blade) here is also where you get the flattened sides (mentioned above) This design was borrowed (almost exactly) by Lie Nielsen and Wood River. If I could post a picture it would be much easier to show the difference. My smoother is a #4 BedRock (1902-1908) and it's worth every minute I put into restoring it.
Like I said in the article that went with this video, each of these planes is like a history lesson to go with the project. Really cool for a hobbyist, that Veritas though was an amazing piece of engineering. If you haven't tried one out, I highly recommend it. www.wood-work-life.com/design/smoothing-plane-shootout-no-4-in-d-flat-minor/
Thanks for that reference. I always wondered what the actual difference was between the Bailey and the Bedrock, besides the squared off wings. Lie-Nielsen Tools copied the Bedrock for their planes, but I prefer the thoughtful extra design features of the Veritas planes myself.
To be fair, L-N borrowed the general designs and improved upon the best of the Stanley tool lines. Veritas, admittedly, has added some of their own ideas to toolmaking. Michael Anderson
I know right, so many variables that are not being taken into consideration. But let's see how thin of a shave we can take cause that's the definitive test of the quality of a plane... oy
+ouodo ya, why? Some people call it hybrid pine, but it is labeled as douglas fir at the home center. 2x4s white wood studs in Missouri tend to be doug fir.
I can't tell you if its spruce or pine from the video, but it's most certainly not douglas fir. Google image search can clear that up for you. Doug fir looks distinctly different from from the rest.
+ouodo it has the pink and reddish stripes like doug fir, I mean it is young growth garbage fir, so it might as well be spruce. I recently reclaimed some old growth straight grained(qs) fir from some old bleachers in a highschool built in the 1880s. Now that stuff is worth building with.
It was obvious the Veritas was going to come out on top , why not put a quality Chip braker and Iron in the Stanley then do a comparison id put my money on the Stanley.
It's kind of ironic. An amateur would be better off with the expensive Veritas Plane. Mine made nice chips right out of the box only fiddling with the depth adjustment. When I was young I bought a cheap Buck plane, spent a half an hour trying to adjust the depth and got maybe one chip out of it when I went over a bump. It sat in my drawer for 10 years unused. I watched some RUclips videos and dusted it off, set the frog, polished the knife on the $300 worth of diamond plates I bought for other sharpening and played around with the cap iron to knife offset. It suddenly started making shavings! Still the little lever that controls depth and straightness was a pain to use. It just didn't want to fit in that square hole. There was a ton of backlash in the depth adjustment. It was just too much of a pain in the neck to use. An experienced woodworker can correct the problems in a cheap plane and make it useful. Usually amateurs buy cheap tools and experts buy expensive tools.
Agreed, I think it is good training to buy an antique to learn a lot of the techniques as an amateur but the really cheap ones usually have one or more fatal flaw. I love harbor freight for a lot of things, this hand plane kit was just not one of them.
Stopped watching at 1:30 when he stated he had a bedrock when he clearly doesn’t. Also, the Veritas large tote for “guys with big hands” is erroneous. You don’t fist the plane. Three fingers on the tote with the index pointing forward. If you don’t know anything about the tool, including how to actually use it, why do a shootout?
Seen them, I personally don't like putting a back bevel on my plane irons, but I assure you, all three of these plane irons were every bit as sharp as his at their sharpest.
your time should always be taken into account, but yeah if you enjoy restoring stuff then its not really "work" but if your hating it just spend the money on a nice new one.
This is really terrific. Especially the time/money accounting. I've never had enough time to really flatten the sole of even a small block plane. It just takes forever! 6 hours on the Harbor Freight and it's not yet flat? I am not at all surprised. The #4 finishing smoothing plane is the most critical plane, so $219 for the Veritas is definitely worth it. On the other hand a #5 jack plane just has to be reasonable solid and reasonably sharp for rough work. There's immense personal satisfaction to finding an old Stanley, fix it up (I knock the rust off, sharpen the blade). A #4? Sure. A #5 absolutely, you can do as little or as much fixing it up as you want and it'll work great. I found this PBS The Woodwright's Workshop episode on planes a terrific resource: www.pbs.org/video/2172600556/ I can sharpen a plane or a chisel to a frightening degree using the Scary Sharp method. An hour of occasionally planing the edges of very soft western red cedar and I can notice the difference if I give the blade a few laps. To get paper thin curls on rough burl? I think that's several steps beyond how sharp the blade is--that's where the Veritas is worth the money.
Some folk are happy with a smoothing plane much less flat than I am, but I rely on it to get me a consistent cut and to test the flatness of stock, otherwise, whats the point. Ok, ok, it is fun to make shavings either way...
A flat shoe, stiff wickedly sharp iron, correct adjustments, good technique, are essential to good finish planing. I really wanted to flatten my shoes, I just never seemed to see any real progress trying to flatten down even my small block plane shoes. A good plane is a handy tool and a joy to use. When I was a kid really good carpenters just seemed to grind their short Stanley chisels and call'em sharp. A clean hinge cutout edge was made with a utility knife. I think short cuts, all that sharpening stone voodoo nonsense (who really wants a sharpening tool that takes more time flattening than is spent using the thing? The only guys I've seen who seem to make the stones system work for them are alone in their shops. Scary sharp and diamond sharpeners brought me to the level of sharpening new chisels, and buying cheap kitchen knives instead of expensive stainless steel junk that can't take an edge) BTW I just bought a Stanley #5. The shoe seems perfectly flat. Straight edge check. I've never seen a plane this dialed in. The handles are plastic, there's a ridge I just scraped off--not the end of the world. I've got a couple old old Stanley planes, a couple of 30 year old Stanley block planes--none of the shoes on any of those is as flat as this new one. One thing I learned is that all plane irons should have rounded corners. Duh! I kept adjusting and fiddling and wondering why I always had ridge lines. Sorry I yammer on. I'm not really a troll, I'm just a guy with a lot of info, opinions who is supposed to be doing something else.... I am a form of procrastination.
Loved the video (actually I subbed while watching it), but i totally disagree with the approach about the cost. Shop time can not be count as working hours, because it is relaxing, it's like our own psychotherapy after a bad day at the office (at least for me). I bought few months ago my 1st cheap plane for 10 euros and I put 2-3 hours in it because it was sh!tty, but with 120 grit paper the sole became flat very fast (not 6h). No doubt about the result the last shaving that veritas made was priceless.
I get it, but some people don't dig restoring tools. They want to get to work. To each there own of course. I have very little "work" I have to output from my shop. For others, that may be different based on demands from customers, spouses, landlords, there are only so many hours in a day. How do you prefer to spend them?
Love the video. It’s a good look at cost vs results. Honestly just get the good tools and save a bunch of time a headache. Some people has a hobby of making things work, and that’s a hobby on its own. But if you are trying to get results, just buy the damn thing.
I want to get results. But at the same time I don't want to break the bank either. So I buy used planes when I come across them. I'm at the point now where I won't buy every plane I see either. But if it's cheap enough I will. So far this year I bought a Stanley Handyman jack plane for a dollar. I cambered the iron and made a scrub plane out of it. I already have three No. 5 Stanleys.
@@1pcfred I've had a few years of practice and restored a bunch of planes and bought even more. Honestly, my opinions remains the same. That said, I can tune up most planes to get one-cell width shavings, it's a matter of understanding what the plane is doing statically and dynamically. I think the non modern (doesn't have to be very old) Records tend to be the fastest to get into cutting shape. If you are not anal about rust, you can get one shipshape in 2 hours or so easy. (Provided you have the right tools and abrasives to deal with it).
@@MintStiles I don't think I've ever seen a Record plane here. Mostly Stanley is what's available. If the iron is properly sharp planes seem to work to me. Sharpening an iron correctly is a rare skill based on what I've seen of used planes I've picked up. I usually have to spend some time with irons on a bench grinder to establish a good primary bevel before I hone.
@@1pcfred totally agree, an ultra sharp blade will compensate for a lot of other faults - big mouth, slightly warped sole, poor frog contact. Highly recommend diamond stones over grinder. If you have the 180, 300, and 1000, all you need are some honing compounds. Unless it's *that bad, most good unmolested blades can be initialized in 15 or (much) less by hand. I find sandpaper flattened blades (back) are a nightmare for jointing. The flex in the heavier grit paper cuts the edges much more aggressively. Not an issue if you are feathering and smoothing using a hint of a kerf, but a giant annoyance for jointing if you want a perfectly flat face. I keep those blades on planes exclusively used for smoothing.
@@1pcfred as for record planes. Depends on where you are. Here in Canada, we have mostly used made in Canada Stanley, England Records and some odd brands like Rapier, Miller Falls and Falcon. I have a full set of Veritas as well, but I find the Records a bit less dear and just use them for their full abilities.
You didn't show us how you sharpened the planes. To be fair each plans should have been sharpened using the same technique.. Why did you use wood with a knot?
+James McIntyre they were all sharpened the same way. It is not a knot, it is burl, it is super hard and the grain goes every which way. Makes it super hard to plane.
I guess if someone's a professional they don't really have the time to do a restoration and could go for the veritas since it's pretty much ready to go out of the box
I restored my grandfather's stanley-style No.4 plane. It's a "Nooitgedagt", a renowned Dutch brand known for very high quality tools. It was a very fun project indeed
Like you I have No 4 Stanley with corrugated sole. Not certain if it is Bedrock, perhaps a Sweetheart, (mine is Sweet Heart - my grandfather's so it is old - pre-war - I'm 60 plus ) check the blade (iron) for markings. Check too how adjustable the frog is, and if knob and tote are exotic woods. A couple of caveats, please, please, please (Xs 10 to the enth) never , ever, repaint an old plane. Clean it up, carefully clean it - piece by piece. Old tooth brushes, Q tips, soft rags ... oh and the "water paper" that flaps in the wind .... again, please no. Those rolls actually round over edges lessening the accuracy of the sole, and wings. Use a spray adhesive on dead flat material to maintain the integrity of the machining. To those who poo poo the need for accuracy, flatness, perfect shavings and on there is place for this, drawers, lids, doors .... Pretty sure experience is the only teacher, so after over forty years working wood here are a couple of ideas. Veritas planes are expensive - no doubt. (make me sweat) Great right out of the box. Expensive, but not over priced. Have a few and they have never let me down. Paul Sellers undisputed genius. Yet personally have found that a variety of planes for a variety of jobs works best. Also, likely not a wise idea to speak in absolutes on the www - as they say : there is always a bigger fish. :)
Thanks for the feedback. I hope you found the video interesting, it was one of my first on RUclips and I had a lot of fun doing it, but pardon my lack of polish. Yes, I later found that the Stanley was not a bedrock nor a sweetheart but just a good prewar same of a stanley Bailey no. 4 corrugated, so there are inevitably better planes out there (actually just bought a prewar Stanly Bedrock 604c and a 605 for a future video.) The Stanley was great, and I still use it regularly, there are certainly many uses for it, the Veritas does however have better features such as the Norris adjustment mechanism (which I find superior due to its retention of the blade and positive feedback) and the adjustable throat (very useful on a smoothing plane for making finishing passes, I know the frog on a Stanley can be adjusted but it leaves the front edge of the blade unsupported and susceptible to chatter.) All that on top of the set up from the factory, I think the Veritas takes it. As for value, the way I presented it, that was just a little fun. I have seen guys stumble on NOS Stanley sweethearts for under $100 so it is really not a fair comparison. It was all in good fun. I went into far greater detail in the article on my website if you are interested. www.wood-work-life.com/design/home/blog/handplane-shootout-no-4-in-d-flat-minor/
A 9$ Japanese plane can do way better work out of the box. While you fix them there paper weights I'll be done building a house with the Japanese plane.
You set the blade way too deep on all the planes. You need to start light to just nip the wood and keep doing it till you get a full shaving. Also, don’t push the planes straight ahead initially, do it at a skew.
My thought too. He never set the side to side depth cut, so we have no idea if it was just a matter of the blades being different depths. In reality, I think with the high dollar planes, you are mostly paying for the final tuning setup done at the factory. Yeah they are nicer but not $300 nicer. Like comparing a low dollar car and and a high dollar car driving at 55 on a smooth road. They both work.
All of this bickering over who makes the best knockoff of a Stanley plane is silly. A good craftsman will tune his tools to their best degree and get the same quality of work out of all of them.
@@WoodWorkLIFE -- I have accumulated a small group of basically pre-war Stanley planes. I've found them very easy to work with and to tune. But you have to be very careful when you purchase, because there is a lot of junk out there. You probably know that Stanley planes have a model number and a type number. The type number tells you roughly when they were made and what features they have. Generally, I've limited my acquisitions to types 10 - 15. These have adjustable frogs as well as lateral adjustment and iron adjustment. Stanley planes are basically fairly easy to work on, and it's possible to get replacement parts via eBay. What I have learned that makes the difference in the product is to let the plane do the work. Take off thin shavings, not massive chunks of wood.
Interesting but not fair by a mile Imo. Applying an hourly rate to set up seems rather silly to me, it's something you can do anytime, it need not cut in to work hours. AND many wood workers, me included enjoy it as a way to relax. Veritas is great but without set up as a factor the old ass Stanley is king
Not being funny but you can’t add labour charge in setting up planes that’s the users responsibility to sort out to get the tool to where it needs to be, You can’t charge people to restore a plane in the value of it if you put it up for sake it’s only worth what people are willing to pay for it
You have to value your own time, unless you think your time is worthless...the values are based on valuing your own time as part of the value statement. I kept all these planes BTW, but show me an antique tool dealer who doesn't take there time into account with the price, and I will show you an out of business tool dealer.
Wood.Work.LIFE. I agree but in the uk 🇬🇧 if I got a plane for 10 quid and spent hour restoring it does not mean the value of exceeds 20 odd quid I restore a Stanley number four and only made 10 quid but lost money getting things to do it, I noticed in the states people charge more and can get away with it
the Japanning was hosed, and I don't buy planes to collect. Japanning was European technique developed to emulate Japanese lacquering anyway. I did it to stop the rust so I can use the plane and keep it in my garage without the rust going further. I suppose I could take the time to mix my own Japanning with asphalt, but there would be even less return on my time invested to get a usable tool. Don't get too hung up on tradition, respect it, understand it, but don't be a prisoner of it, or you'll be bound to repeat the past.
I know what Japanning is. I'm speaking of it's effect on usage. Material between the separate contacts of the frog cause additional chatter and loss in accuracy, stability, and consistency of each cut between adjustments...I really don't think you should be making videos that 'teach' people about a subject when you clearly aren't knowledgeable on the subject matter itself. Somewhere out there is some kid that's gonna see your video and buy an old plane on ebay and quickly lose interest in traditional woodworking due to the frustration caused by never getting his plane working. Then that plane will sit awhile and it'll eventually be sold on eBay and only with hope will that simple fix be known by the eventual owner.
Tyler, Easy to be an armchair critic, not so easy to produce a video. I found this to have lots of useful information for all levels of experience. Thanks Rick.
8:39 Ouch! I felt that poor Stanley's pain when he drove it into the end of the piece of wood. Dude, you should know how to use a plane properly before you even think about reviewing them.
Six hours to flatten the sole on the Harbor Freight-and THEN another 14+ hours of adjustments??? You lost all your credibility on this one. If you properly plate sanded any plane sole it would be flat in just a few minutes. Six hours of removing material even at the finest grit would have removed all of the sole. And what the hell are you doing with the other 14 hours on an new commercially manufactured plane-tooling up from scratch and re-machining all the surfaces on a Bridgeport? You could build a basic infill smoothing plane from scratch in 20 hours and you expect viewers to believe that it took you 20 hours of your time to get a new, commercially forged and machined plane just to get it to plane wood-poorly? Others on RUclips have taken the HF and even cheaper planes on as a challenge and have gotten them flattened, squared up, and sharpened and able to preform to a usable standard in less than an hour. Disingenuous and ridiculous video to say the least.
Ok ok, you might be missing the message here, also this is my second youtube video ever so given a little slack. If you listen to what I said in the video, the issue is the shotty lateral adjustment mechanism and the thin sole. It is not that it takes so long to get it flat, it takes that long to get good consistent results out of it, and I still wasn't able to because of the faulty lateral adjust mechanism design. I can get it to take a few good shavings withing an hour or two, but if you want a legitimate every day user, you don't want the blade skewing and gouging you work unpredictably. Buy an old Stanley.
So - some basic vocabulary: Lever cap Cap iron Cam Wet or dry paper isn't "glass" paper Veritas blade adjustment is copied from a Norris design well over hundred years old - not more "modern" than a cam operation lever cap Basically if you gonna make a video then at least make an effort with some of the facts.
Now that I'm retired, my time is basically worth nothing, so the set-up math doesn't work for me. And even if it did, I look at restoring old tools as a recreational activity, so I'm not really working anyway.
I love the Stanley Bailey and the well-made clones. I've got a Stanley Bailey and a Millers Falls Bailey clone. Bailey was a tool-making genius.
Hand Tool Rescue sent me here.
Is that the little voice in your head Eric?
Me personally, i like it when it comes to tunning up the hand planes. Its fun, and lets me know the reason it works as good as it does, is because of me.
If I was to put value in the time I spend in the shop, I wouldn't be doing woodworking in the first place. I'd just buy them all.
Time and labor doesn't count when restoring and adjusting tools to fit your standards- that is the fun in it all, getting your tools personalized. These things are done when it's raining and cold outside with a cup of coffee, instead of wasting life watching TV.
Don't get me wrong, I still love my little Stanley.
This really depends, I have a two year old and an infant and don't have a lot of shop time. I would rather be working on my projects rather than spending a whole day restoring my tools... If I was retired and had all the time in the world sure, no big deal. With working full time and family life some of us want to work on projects and not have to worry about messing with our tools.
I think most people got that. For me I don't mind restoring a plane, if that is the project I am working on. But if I need a tool to just get to work, I am not going to scour ebay, and spend hours restoring. I want to get something that will quickly get me to work. I too have a 7 mo old and a 3 year old, my time is worth way more that $15 an hour. I've gotta draw the line somewhere, I restore antique tools as almost a separate hobby from woodworking. It is awesome to have those old tools around though.
Your time is only worth $15 per hour IF you are paid for the time. Your off-time is worth $0 per hour. Unless we're talking about intangible benefits like enjoyment, time with family, and the like. Then why use dollars at all to represent value of time?
I appreciate that he gave time estimates. The truth is, I always put a dollar value on my time because I can pick up extra shifts. I will restore my Stanley, because it was my grandfather's, but if it weren't and I'd rather get started on a project ASAP that needed a good place - I could see the case for the veritas.
I have 5 or 6 old planes two of them are Stanley's I love them. I have a couple of others and they are good too but not quite as good as the Stanley. any time i spend time in the shop is a plus. I retired from the trades over 10 years ago so needing them to produce products is no longer a need. someone gave me a Stanley Handyman plane the other day, it is ok but I doubt I will ever use it for much. Veritas is very nice but I prefer the adjustments of the Stanley. The only reason I would buy a Veritas plane is if I was building furniture as a business or someone other product that needed me to finish the wood quickly. either a stanley or a veritas plane will yield a nice product.
Great comparison. I like the way you calculated time into the equation. For serious hobbyists or people whose shop time is very limited, that's a big factor.
For hobbyists time is NOTHING .ITS A HOBBY.
For a hobbyist, like myself, time is pleasure! So the Stanley is the way to go.
Checking ebay for a project like this
Brother, you don't have a Stanley Bedrock there...it's a post-war Bailey...not Stanley's best work. Just sayin
Ya I realized that in the comments, and after a little more research. Turns out the post war bedrocks had access to the frog screw through the lever cap so no, not a bedrock. Not that this would've changed the value much since second hand bedrocks fetch quite a premium.
A bedrock has a different shaped frog that has a larger mating area with the body of the plane, giving the bade more stability.
what is fettle?
It means to setup and tune to a good working standard .its an old term .
Well said. Too much RUclips fed snobbery going on with hand tool workers these days. Novice amateurs looking down their noses at somebody because they think something less than a tool-porn-star grade item is for plebs.
I have stanley same as your since 1978 ,which was my brother bring from saudi ,what a great tool and like apart of my body .
sure are
Thank you for the side-by-side examination. I'm just now venturing into hand planes. This is a valuable lesson. Again, thanks....keep the chips flying!
If you are just getting started, Go to Paul Sellers channel, He has over 50 years working with wood. He is the best.
Hello Bill. Yes, Mr. Sellers is one of the first #Woodworking RUclipsrs I stumbled upon. Great wealth of direct knowledge and experience. Thank you for the recommendation. #KeepTheChipsFlying!
Hmmm... At $15 an hour I just spent $3.25 watching a video on planes. I think the time factor really only comes into play when an item is going to be sold. It's good to figure out a starting price.
I could spend 3-4 hours restoring a plane that would otherwise be wasted. End result I have a new tool that will probably out live me.
Very good video. I was impressed with the Veritas but when it really comes down to it if the sole doesn't flex and it is flat then they all will perform. The real mark with me is how easy they are to maintain. The original setup is only a one time cost in labor after that it is only maintaining.
+Jason Adams true true
Interesting video.
I have the Veritas #4. Fantastic plane, great shavings. But for the cost, I could have better spent on multiple used planes. It sits in it's box after only being played with when I got it.
I have refurbished a few Stanley's. Depending on the until condition, I'd say there is probably an average of 2-3 man hours into each, which includes rust removal, flattening, repainting (if necessary), polishing, refinishing tote and knob, and sharpening the blade.
I recently bought the newer HF #33 plane and converted it to a scrub. Just removed all the extra grease and sharpening the blade was all it needed to be a scrub. 30 minutes of work.
In the end, I'd say that my Stanley smoothers are on par with the capability of my Veritas.
I have a Bedrock, and a Bailey smoother (the one in this video), a HF, and a cheap modern Stanley. I like the Veritas more, but I like to tinker and fiddle and I trust the machining a lot more in every direction. But there are certainly things the Bedrock is better at, it also weighs a lot less.
I love old Stanley tools, maybe simply because I grew up around them; something Stanley relies on with product loyalty. However, leaving parts soaking overnight is hardly putting time and effort into setting it up. What gets added on next? The shipping time from the Ebay seller? Be fair.
Thanks for a great video :-)
I didn't count the soak time, but otherwise fair point.
To be fair, I did just order two old bedrock planes for restoration :)
Great roundup. I like putting the value in dollars like that. I do a lot of calculating in dollar per hour in other things I do to justify time. Since I have limited shop time it makes sense to always be working and not maintaining since I'm expected to turn around my home projects quicker. This may also get me better tools in the end!
It is certainly a great argument with your wife for why you spent so much at the hardware store :)
I love collecting and restoring old planes and I do use some of my cheaper restored ones, but it's real hard to beat a nice veritas or lie-Nielsen hand plane.
Tools are meant to use, use the freakin things
End grain? More like edge grain. Interesting, but I'd say the Veritas wasn't much better than the Harbor Freight plane. It's all in flatness and sharpness and theoretically, any plane can be made into a great plane. I use Lie Neilsen myself.
Bullshit, but okay.
The first plane I ever bought was a corrugated Stanley No. 4. I got it at a flea market for $5. I always thought fettling plane soles was BS. After I fixed up a basket case Stanley No. 2 with a busted body I still think I was right. Because even it works with a big dent in the sole. For a dollar that was some plane fixing project.
It depend on where it’s at. If that dent is right behind the mouth then a plane simply won’t work.
@@James_T_Kirk_1701 you'd think so. But it planes just fine.
Try waxing the sole of the plane with just a few strokes of Gulfwax for canning. It makes a huge difference and does not cause problems with gluing. Alternatively, some people do a quick wipedown with 3-in-1 oil on the sole. Try it, you'll like it.
I also fiddled around with a Kolbalt from Lowes. It's a 4-1/2 size, and although it looks good, the chipbreaker was very badly shaped and ground, and the metal was of low quality. I probably should have returned itfor my $30, but. in the end I replaced the chipbreaker with one from a junked Stanley and now it works properly.
I tend to use a beeswax "crayon" on the bottom of my soles. It works amazingly. I want to make the old oil soaked rag in a can deal, I have heard it is really good at preventing rust. I have heard about the one from the blue store. I haven't personally tried it, but a lot of people like their block plane. I am thinking about doing a future shootout with those guys.
Thanks for an interesting video. I don’t plane anything (jointer, sanding) but I’m interested in hand planers. The video was really informative!
You will find using citric acid to derust will work much better. Citric acid powder is used for pickle making, lots of grocery stores carry it. 5# bags are on Amazon for $10
Shop time is worth $30 to $50 per hour. I do think people when learning should get an old junker and fix it so it works.
I have a doubt, Smootheness depends uopn the balde sharpness and of course the angle of the plane and the weight of the planner.Then why do we need different brand of planers.Can not we have a same brand of different length?
Sorry to disappoint but the Stanley is definitely not a bedrock.
Of corse the veritas will be the best. Its a premium tool made from superior materials.
Yup
A card scraper makes quick work of the handles then a little sanding DONE !
Agree. Hitting the finish with a rasp is ridiculous.
Nice review! I'm a twenty year "Home Depot-ish" carpenter of average skill level. I'm just getting into trying to make better use of hand tools and I appreciate your breakdown. What made the Veritas so much better? Adjustable throat? Flatter sole? I'm not afraid to be seen in Harbor Freight but I'd rather spend money when it's worth it.
Thanks.
The Veritas is so much better, in that the sole if pre flattened, the blade is thicker (less chatter), and the adjustable throat. I also prefer the Norris adjustment mechanism to the Stanley-Bailey mechanism. More precise and consistent.
What made the Veritas so much better? Choice-supportive bias. Choice-supportive bias or post-purchase rationalization is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected and/or to demote the forgone options. It is part of Cognitive science, and is a distinct cognitive bias that occurs once a decision is made.
I mainly use Record and Stanley planes, though I do have a No. 7 Faithful jointer which is surprisingly good. I do enjoy getting an old rusty plane and making it mine, I’d almost pay cash for the privilege of doing it. The Stanley and Records have done many great craftsmen well over the last century, Paul Sellers uses nothing else.
Saying all that, unwrapping the Veritas was one of the sexiest things I've seen on RUclips, is that an indicator I’m old and sad? Probably. It is an amazing plane, though I’m not sure many hobbyist would spend over £2k on a Jointer, Jack, 2 x #4, 2 block planes. Though to a professional it’s an investment, which will repay him many times over.
I thought it was a very fair contest this one, and I’m sure we would all love the Veritas. When you are a professional your values are different than us amateurs. To an amateur spending hours getting that old knackered Stanley shaving just right is truly a labour of love. To a professional time is money.
A great video, thank you for making it.
Couldn't agree with you more, on all accounts. I was trying to be objective.
You wont see a chippie (carpenter) or shopfitter in the UK using a Veritas, they would have a Stanley or Record preferably a 4 1/2 although the no. 4 is OK. Bench joiners might go for a Veritas or a Clifton or even a Norris, But in the shop the Stanley or Record is still king, in various numbers although jointers are rare because of the power planers/thicknessers. I dont know about cabinet makers so i cant comment there
Rick, another great video. I loved the way you compared value of tuning time... it really put it in perspective for me. Made me rethink the "value" of cheaper planes. ... not to mention $15/hr is probably a pretty low/conservative estimate for us weekend warriors that place a premium on our free time.
The old Stanley had quality built in but are the present built Stanleys as good?
vmitchinson
People will tell you that the new ones are junk. 98% of those people have never used one. They are just repeating what others say. I have three planes that are my most used. A 4, 4 1/2, and a 5. The 4 and 4 1/2 are new. The number 5 is a 1918 Stanley. There is no performance difference between them. The new Stanleys needed a slight sole flattening, sharpen the blade and adjust the fit of the cap iron. All up, about 30 minutes work. My new ones are both English made. I don't know about the ones sold in the US that are made in Mexico.
+ardvarkkkkk1 I would love to see what a modern Stanley sweetheart performs like. The new chisels are really nice for the price.
I have a stanley bailey no4 type 16. $20-25 Locally. I also have a no 6 bailey type 19 my mom bought me. I am going to restore and use them.
I think you're all looking at it wrong. You need the HF plane to learn how to deal with a beater and all the things that can go wrong. It also helps you appreciate the advantages of the Stanley #4. The Stanley is a workhorse, and you can make a living off of it. Once you've really learned it, he can feel the wood beneath it and make it do whatever you need it to do. But the Veritas, or in my case the Lie Nielsen, so precisely milled and heavy in the hand. Those shavings just jump off as if the plane is doing all the work. It's a thing of beauty. It's like driving a Bently after a lifetime of Toyotas. Every man or woman should experience all of them.
You can improve the function of the Stanley and harbor freight with a hock iron and chipbreaker for 70 or 80 bucks depending on whether you get carbon steel or a2 steel. Then you can get end grain shavings like the veritas, but the veritas is still heavier.
Ya for sure, the sole on the HF plane is too thin, light, and flexible. The Alchemists among us could probably try hardening it with a heat treat. An old Stanley certainly benefits from an iron upgrade but this brings the price dangerously close to a really good plane like the Woodriver with a lot tighter tolerances. Unless you are just into the romantic appeal of using grandad's planes.
Ira Adams
I can do that with the stock blade in a modern Stanley Bailey.
The Harbor freight makes an okay scrub plane, for a smoother your mileage may vary.
I'm a new wood worker. very very useful. Thank you.
+Keir Gray Cool!
Fantastic explanation. What’s your opinion of the Buck Bros version?
I have never personally used one, but the design looks very similar to the Stanley design, I would suppose after setup it work similarly, but I would bet the sole would take a lot more work...
That’s a Bailey, not a Bedrock. The Bedrock have pins in the frog going down and 2 screws on either side of the frog adjustment screw which lock in with those pins and allow you to move the frog without having to take the blade/chipbreaker/cap lever off. The Bedrock generally have squared off sides too.
Haha I just spent a day bidding on eBay.. but I got a shoulder plane a block plane a no5 jack and no4 smoothing plane for less than the price of a varitas... and the block plane was a lie Nielsen too... so let’s see what we can do with all those tools!
NICE SCORE! For a hobbyist the time of restoration doesn't really play into it. But when you score those kinds of quality tools you don't need to worry about all that. I was just sort of getting at the fact that you don't NEED to spend 150$ worth of time to restore a 30$ tool. For me as a dad, and with a full time job, time is much more valuable than money.
I find veritas waaaayyyy over priced...all the high priced planes are too expensive...waayyy too expensive.....it's all about HOW you flatten the soles..if you lap them 100% by hand it can take an eternity....it chips away a lot of time by roughing it on a good old belt sander(maybe 5-10 min) followed up by @15 min of lapping by hand(this is worst case scenario)...the issue I do have with the less expensive planes is the thickness of the body, the blade quality and the blade advance(often a lot of play)...but still I appreciate your approach to the shootout, time is money and the way you calculated the price along side you personal time investment is very very relevant...I myself cannot afford a high quality plane...and it is difficult to get a used record/stanley no.4 here in germnay..so I learned the good old fashioned way...trial and error. I own 3 cheap planes and have used a restored stanley no.4 and I have to say...you can absolutely tune a cheap plane to be a good plane...but you have to know what a good plane is first :) as always this is the internet and I hope this does not come off as offensive, just another idiots perspective..take care and thanks for your two cents :)
I do use a belt sand when a plane is way out of flat, I actually used it on the HF plane. If that was the only issue with the HF it would have taken the same amount of time as the Stanley. The problem with it is the lateral adjustment mechanism and the chip breaker (they just don't work) fiddling with them took so much time. The body was of course the cheapo steel as well, but for the price I could've lived with that. With the lateral adjustment mechanism the tool was just not useful for the purpose I wanted to use it for and I gave it away after this video. I agree with you though the Stanley gets you 95% the way there, with the Veritas though the adjustable and thus narrower throat allows you to do true finishing work, on some easier to prepare species of wood (Walnut, Cypress, Fir) you don't even need to sand afterwards. It also has the retention screw so you don't have to square the blade every time, and the Norris adjuster is much more repeatable and reliable than the Stanley/Record style. Is it worth the money/time? That is up to you.
Justin, the advanced design effort and exceptional manufacturing quality are but two of the reasons they cost more than other makers' planes. However the more important issue related to cost is that they are less expensive than Lie-Nielsen planes, and, dramatically less so than boutique planes. To my way of thinking, they are excellent value hand tools.
"Are they worth more? that is up to you."
Well said.
Justin
As an owner of a variety of planes, Stanley, Bailey and Bedrock, Record, Woodriver (a well made Chinese knockoff of a Bedrock), Veritas, Lie Nielsen, just to name a few.
The main difference is the Cost of the handplane which is a straight reflection of the manufacturing Quality.
Out of the Box, nothing beats a Lie Nielsen or a Veritas, with a few minutes of protective layer and a few minutes on "final polishing" the blade (if you want too) both will cut sub 0.001 inch or 0.0254 mm shavings in hard wood or soft, the LN has a thicker blade and it's heavier.
In any other plane, you'll have to invest time (and maybe new blade) into bringing it to a reasonable ability to shave as well as those two names described, still, not going to be the same feel...
If you ever drove a Fiat and an S type Mercedes, you'll understand...
If you're a serious wood worker, invest in the best, it "hurts" only once!
If you're not, don't buy expensive, unless money is not an object.
IMHO.
Truth, thanks!
A well set up plane with a sharp iron will cut a shaving like rice paper when you breath at it.
keep your tools sharp and your mind sharper
Have a harbor freight gonna make it a scrub plane
That is not a Bedrock. And the HF is not a copy of a Bedrock. Takes me one hour to completely flatten and tune almost any old Stanley. So not knocking the VERITAS, it is excellent, but I will stick with old Stanley.
+Jon Woodworker flattening wasn't the problem on any of these. The adjustment machanism on the HF is crap
That I agree its a $20 plane and made with cheap soft metal that won't last. I prefer the Stanley planes type 17-19 for the quality of steel and ease of use. I also have true Bedrocks, which are a whole other animal. Properly tuned they work flawlessly. Where planes of the VERITAS type separate themselves is the blade and chip breaker (not to mention machining). You can upgrade any Stanley with a Hock blade and breaker to make them better. Now your getting to the point of imbalance. Bedrock on eBay is around 125, Hock blade and breaker 60, then your time. This is still under the new premium planes offered but not by much.
I actually have two bedrock planes on their way right now for a future video. I appreciate the insight. This was my first real video, I had a little diarrhea of the mouth when talking about the different planes. I knew that one wasn't a bedrock, but now I will know what makes a Bedrocks so much different.
+Jon Woodworker I have a couple bedrockss coming for review. That was more of an on camera mistake...
Ya I guess if you didn't want to clean off the rust and address whatever needs to be addressed you could get most planes into being a "user" in a couple hours.
Damn you can buy a new stanley sweetheart for what hock wants for an a2 tool steel blade and chip breaker.... fuck that!
By the time you upgraded an old stanley you could damn near just buy a woodriver.
I'd like to see something with grizzly planes
The Stanley is really cool
+Slant Six it sure is, a little while after I bought a 604 bedrock. While different ballgame.
Best way to get rid of shellac, wax, and decades of dirt from wood is: Denatured alcohol with No.00 steelwool. It makes this process so easy. Like the vinegar rust removal solution. Just a tip. Have a good day fellow.
Thanks I’ll try that sometime. I usually use mineral spirits but I always keep denatured alcohol around. I’ll have to give it a shot.
Thanks I’ll try that sometime. I usually use mineral spirits but I always keep denatured alcohol around. I’ll have to give it a shot.
I wrote No.00 steelwool but maybe a coarser would work faster.There is a video about wooden plane restoration at the "Woodworking Masterclass" chanel. I really love his videos and his accent too :)
All valid considerations and I agree with your assessments, except for one thing...
How in hell do you spend 15 or 20 hours adjusting a plane?
Even when I do it all by hand it doesn't take more than an hour. If I use a belt sander or disc sander for initial flattening, then use power-sharpening tools for the irons, that time is cut in half or more. Except for rust removal ( which isn't an issue on new tools) how do you figure 20 hours to set up a plane????
+Learner-Learns because the frog adjustment machanism on the HF is garbage. It always cocks out of square. Most of the time was spent tweaking that and trying to get consistent shaving. Also the steel on the chip breaker is too thin and buckls under the force of the plane, eventually allowing chips to slip under it.
Did you flatten the chip breaker?
+Graham Orm I did but the steel on the ship breaker is too flimsy. I guess I could have heat treated it, but that didn't seem worth my time/money. The adjustment lever makes all this a mute point though. The whole plane assembly is so flimsy/out if square even cocked all the way to one side or the other the blade is still not square to the sole.
Interesting comparison here, however, in all fairness, the Varitas #4 & Stanley's newest #4 12-136 smoother planer would have given the Varitas a better run for the money imo...
Also the newer Stanley incorporates much the same features found in the Varita, almost, not quite. I really like that older Stanley however, a real keeper for sure...
Thanks... :-)
Thank you.
No, that's is not what makes a plane part of the Bedrock series. That is merely the Bailey adjustment mechanism. Bedrock planes are mainly distinguished by the frog adjustment mechanism and the flattened tops of the usual rounded sides.
www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm
annarboriter thanks, I guess I have just never seen one in person. So the bedrock has "wings" more like the Veritas?
It's even more complex than that. Stanley BedRocks are cast on a slight incline where the frog seats, milled on each side to form a channel so that the frog stays perfectly aligned to the sole when the frog is adjusted. After 1911, the rear adjustment screw is added (with locking T-bolts so the frog can be adjusted without removing the blade) here is also where you get the flattened sides (mentioned above) This design was borrowed (almost exactly) by Lie Nielsen and Wood River. If I could post a picture it would be much easier to show the difference. My smoother is a #4 BedRock (1902-1908) and it's worth every minute I put into restoring it.
Like I said in the article that went with this video, each of these planes is like a history lesson to go with the project. Really cool for a hobbyist, that Veritas though was an amazing piece of engineering. If you haven't tried one out, I highly recommend it. www.wood-work-life.com/design/smoothing-plane-shootout-no-4-in-d-flat-minor/
Thanks for that reference. I always wondered what the actual difference was between the Bailey and the Bedrock, besides the squared off wings. Lie-Nielsen Tools copied the Bedrock for their planes, but I prefer the thoughtful extra design features of the Veritas planes myself.
To be fair, L-N borrowed the general designs and improved upon the best of the Stanley tool lines. Veritas, admittedly, has added some of their own ideas to toolmaking.
Michael Anderson
The Stanley plane is not a Bedrock. It's just a standard 4c. The "c" means it has a corrugated sole.
Your are correct, I have a bedrock 504c now too
This is ridiculous.
I know right, so many variables that are not being taken into consideration. But let's see how thin of a shave we can take cause that's the definitive test of the quality of a plane... oy
also why are we planing over a huge knot??
do you still think that softwood was douglas fir?
+ouodo ya, why? Some people call it hybrid pine, but it is labeled as douglas fir at the home center. 2x4s white wood studs in Missouri tend to be doug fir.
I can't tell you if its spruce or pine from the video, but it's most certainly not douglas fir. Google image search can clear that up for you. Doug fir looks distinctly different from from the rest.
+ouodo it has the pink and reddish stripes like doug fir, I mean it is young growth garbage fir, so it might as well be spruce. I recently reclaimed some old growth straight grained(qs) fir from some old bleachers in a highschool built in the 1880s. Now that stuff is worth building with.
Thanks I am returning my Harbor Freight
Go and watch Paul Sellers if you want to know about planes .
Both the Veritas and the Stanley will outlast you. Not so sure about the HF special.
The Veritas and Stanley should. They are over 4 times as much new as the HF.
I dont want to offend but this review is rubbish.The cardboard is vacuum packed on .What the hell are you saying?
I love old tools
Me too, you'll love my video in a couple weeks where I am restoring two Stanley Bedrock planes, a 604 and a 605
+James Burke me too
It would help if all the blades were sha
Veritas is great.....what about Lie-Neilsen?
I have my first Like Nielsen plane im the shop right now :)
Over priced
End grain??? 9:30
Good video, but the Stanley and Harbor Freight are Bailey style planes, not Bedrock.
It was obvious the Veritas was going to come out on top , why not put a quality Chip braker and Iron in the Stanley then do a comparison id put my money on the Stanley.
Hey dude. Not a bedrock. It's a stanley bailey c pattern. Bedrock have flat top sides
It's kind of ironic. An amateur would be better off with the expensive Veritas Plane. Mine made nice chips right out of the box only fiddling with the depth adjustment. When I was young I bought a cheap Buck plane, spent a half an hour trying to adjust the depth and got maybe one chip out of it when I went over a bump. It sat in my drawer for 10 years unused. I watched some RUclips videos and dusted it off, set the frog, polished the knife on the $300 worth of diamond plates I bought for other sharpening and played around with the cap iron to knife offset. It suddenly started making shavings! Still the little lever that controls depth and straightness was a pain to use. It just didn't want to fit in that square hole. There was a ton of backlash in the depth adjustment. It was just too much of a pain in the neck to use. An experienced woodworker can correct the problems in a cheap plane and make it useful. Usually amateurs buy cheap tools and experts buy expensive tools.
Agreed, I think it is good training to buy an antique to learn a lot of the techniques as an amateur but the really cheap ones usually have one or more fatal flaw. I love harbor freight for a lot of things, this hand plane kit was just not one of them.
Stopped watching at 1:30 when he stated he had a bedrock when he clearly doesn’t. Also, the Veritas large tote for “guys with big hands” is erroneous. You don’t fist the plane. Three fingers on the tote with the index pointing forward. If you don’t know anything about the tool, including how to actually use it, why do a shootout?
Savage!
Watch Rob Cosman's videos to learn how to properly and quickly sharpen your blades.
Seen them, I personally don't like putting a back bevel on my plane irons, but I assure you, all three of these plane irons were every bit as sharp as his at their sharpest.
your time should always be taken into account, but yeah if you enjoy restoring stuff then its not really "work" but if your hating it just spend the money on a nice new one.
This is really terrific. Especially the time/money accounting. I've never had enough time to really flatten the sole of even a small block plane. It just takes forever! 6 hours on the Harbor Freight and it's not yet flat? I am not at all surprised. The #4 finishing smoothing plane is the most critical plane, so $219 for the Veritas is definitely worth it. On the other hand a #5 jack plane just has to be reasonable solid and reasonably sharp for rough work.
There's immense personal satisfaction to finding an old Stanley, fix it up (I knock the rust off, sharpen the blade). A #4? Sure. A #5 absolutely, you can do as little or as much fixing it up as you want and it'll work great.
I found this PBS The Woodwright's Workshop episode on planes a terrific resource: www.pbs.org/video/2172600556/
I can sharpen a plane or a chisel to a frightening degree using the Scary Sharp method. An hour of occasionally planing the edges of very soft western red cedar and I can notice the difference if I give the blade a few laps.
To get paper thin curls on rough burl? I think that's several steps beyond how sharp the blade is--that's where the Veritas is worth the money.
Some folk are happy with a smoothing plane much less flat than I am, but I rely on it to get me a consistent cut and to test the flatness of stock, otherwise, whats the point. Ok, ok, it is fun to make shavings either way...
A flat shoe, stiff wickedly sharp iron, correct adjustments, good technique, are essential to good finish planing. I really wanted to flatten my shoes, I just never seemed to see any real progress trying to flatten down even my small block plane shoes. A good plane is a handy tool and a joy to use.
When I was a kid really good carpenters just seemed to grind their short Stanley chisels and call'em sharp. A clean hinge cutout edge was made with a utility knife. I think short cuts, all that sharpening stone voodoo nonsense (who really wants a sharpening tool that takes more time flattening than is spent using the thing?
The only guys I've seen who seem to make the stones system work for them are alone in their shops. Scary sharp and diamond sharpeners brought me to the level of sharpening new chisels, and buying cheap kitchen knives instead of expensive stainless steel junk that can't take an edge)
BTW I just bought a Stanley #5. The shoe seems perfectly flat. Straight edge check. I've never seen a plane this dialed in. The handles are plastic, there's a ridge I just scraped off--not the end of the world. I've got a couple old old Stanley planes, a couple of 30 year old Stanley block planes--none of the shoes on any of those is as flat as this new one.
One thing I learned is that all plane irons should have rounded corners. Duh! I kept adjusting and fiddling and wondering why I always had ridge lines. Sorry I yammer on. I'm not really a troll, I'm just a guy with a lot of info, opinions who is supposed to be doing something else.... I am a form of procrastination.
Loved the video (actually I subbed while watching it), but i totally disagree with the approach about the cost. Shop time can not be count as working hours, because it is relaxing, it's like our own psychotherapy after a bad day at the office (at least for me). I bought few months ago my 1st cheap plane for 10 euros and I put 2-3 hours in it because it was sh!tty, but with 120 grit paper the sole became flat very fast (not 6h). No doubt about the result the last shaving that veritas made was priceless.
I get it, but some people don't dig restoring tools. They want to get to work. To each there own of course. I have very little "work" I have to output from my shop. For others, that may be different based on demands from customers, spouses, landlords, there are only so many hours in a day. How do you prefer to spend them?
Love the video. It’s a good look at cost vs results. Honestly just get the good tools and save a bunch of time a headache. Some people has a hobby of making things work, and that’s a hobby on its own. But if you are trying to get results, just buy the damn thing.
I want to get results. But at the same time I don't want to break the bank either. So I buy used planes when I come across them. I'm at the point now where I won't buy every plane I see either. But if it's cheap enough I will. So far this year I bought a Stanley Handyman jack plane for a dollar. I cambered the iron and made a scrub plane out of it. I already have three No. 5 Stanleys.
@@1pcfred I've had a few years of practice and restored a bunch of planes and bought even more. Honestly, my opinions remains the same. That said, I can tune up most planes to get one-cell width shavings, it's a matter of understanding what the plane is doing statically and dynamically. I think the non modern (doesn't have to be very old) Records tend to be the fastest to get into cutting shape. If you are not anal about rust, you can get one shipshape in 2 hours or so easy. (Provided you have the right tools and abrasives to deal with it).
@@MintStiles I don't think I've ever seen a Record plane here. Mostly Stanley is what's available. If the iron is properly sharp planes seem to work to me. Sharpening an iron correctly is a rare skill based on what I've seen of used planes I've picked up. I usually have to spend some time with irons on a bench grinder to establish a good primary bevel before I hone.
@@1pcfred totally agree, an ultra sharp blade will compensate for a lot of other faults - big mouth, slightly warped sole, poor frog contact. Highly recommend diamond stones over grinder. If you have the 180, 300, and 1000, all you need are some honing compounds. Unless it's *that bad, most good unmolested blades can be initialized in 15 or (much) less by hand. I find sandpaper flattened blades (back) are a nightmare for jointing. The flex in the heavier grit paper cuts the edges much more aggressively. Not an issue if you are feathering and smoothing using a hint of a kerf, but a giant annoyance for jointing if you want a perfectly flat face. I keep those blades on planes exclusively used for smoothing.
@@1pcfred as for record planes. Depends on where you are. Here in Canada, we have mostly used made in Canada Stanley, England Records and some odd brands like Rapier, Miller Falls and Falcon. I have a full set of Veritas as well, but I find the Records a bit less dear and just use them for their full abilities.
THANKyou
+Walter Rider Yw, thanks for watching mittens :)
You didn't show us how you sharpened the planes. To be fair each plans should have been sharpened using the same technique.. Why did you use wood with a knot?
+James McIntyre they were all sharpened the same way. It is not a knot, it is burl, it is super hard and the grain goes every which way. Makes it super hard to plane.
I guess if someone's a professional they don't really have the time to do a restoration and could go for the veritas since it's pretty much ready to go out of the box
I restored my grandfather's stanley-style No.4 plane. It's a "Nooitgedagt", a renowned Dutch brand known for very high quality tools.
It was a very fun project indeed
That is soo cool, my family didn't really leave me any tools. Most of them were satisfied with changing their own light bulbs...
Harbor freight makes a bedrock version? Interesting.
+UreaSmith nah just the two cheapy planes. I think stumpy nubs turns their other plane into a scrub plane pretty effectively.
Yeah I saw that episode.
Yeah Fred Fintstone approved LOL
The Stanley is not a Bedrock.
Harbor Freight is the best. Period.
Like you I have No 4 Stanley with corrugated sole. Not certain if it is Bedrock, perhaps a Sweetheart, (mine is Sweet Heart - my grandfather's so it is old - pre-war - I'm 60 plus ) check the blade (iron) for markings. Check too how adjustable the frog is, and if knob and tote are exotic woods. A couple of caveats, please, please, please (Xs 10 to the enth) never , ever, repaint an old plane. Clean it up, carefully clean it - piece by piece. Old tooth brushes, Q tips, soft rags ... oh and the "water paper" that flaps in the wind .... again, please no. Those rolls actually round over edges lessening the accuracy of the sole, and wings. Use a spray adhesive on dead flat material to maintain the integrity of the machining. To those who poo poo the need for accuracy, flatness, perfect shavings and on there is place for this, drawers, lids, doors .... Pretty sure experience is the only teacher, so after over forty years working wood here are a couple of ideas. Veritas planes are expensive - no doubt. (make me sweat) Great right out of the box. Expensive, but not over priced. Have a few and they have never let me down. Paul Sellers undisputed genius. Yet personally have found that a variety of planes for a variety of jobs works best. Also, likely not a wise idea to speak in absolutes on the www - as they say : there is always a bigger fish. :)
Thanks for the feedback. I hope you found the video interesting, it was one of my first on RUclips and I had a lot of fun doing it, but pardon my lack of polish.
Yes, I later found that the Stanley was not a bedrock nor a sweetheart but just a good prewar same of a stanley Bailey no. 4 corrugated, so there are inevitably better planes out there (actually just bought a prewar Stanly Bedrock 604c and a 605 for a future video.) The Stanley was great, and I still use it regularly, there are certainly many uses for it, the Veritas does however have better features such as the Norris adjustment mechanism (which I find superior due to its retention of the blade and positive feedback) and the adjustable throat (very useful on a smoothing plane for making finishing passes, I know the frog on a Stanley can be adjusted but it leaves the front edge of the blade unsupported and susceptible to chatter.) All that on top of the set up from the factory, I think the Veritas takes it.
As for value, the way I presented it, that was just a little fun. I have seen guys stumble on NOS Stanley sweethearts for under $100 so it is really not a fair comparison. It was all in good fun. I went into far greater detail in the article on my website if you are interested.
www.wood-work-life.com/design/home/blog/handplane-shootout-no-4-in-d-flat-minor/
A 9$ Japanese plane can do way better work out of the box. While you fix them there paper weights I'll be done building a house with the Japanese plane.
give a planer please
You set the blade way too deep on all the planes. You need to start light to just nip the wood and keep doing it till you get a full shaving. Also, don’t push the planes straight ahead initially, do it at a skew.
My thought too. He never set the side to side depth cut, so we have no idea if it was just a matter of the blades being different depths. In reality, I think with the high dollar planes, you are mostly paying for the final tuning setup done at the factory. Yeah they are nicer but not $300 nicer. Like comparing a low dollar car and and a high dollar car driving at 55 on a smooth road. They both work.
He very obviously did this off camera. Otherwise the veritas got a 2/1000th shaving by 'accident' the very first time.
I’m sorry but there is no way in hell that was Douglas fir
All of this bickering over who makes the best knockoff of a Stanley plane is silly. A good craftsman will tune his tools to their best degree and get the same quality of work out of all of them.
True true, I am mainly trying to boil down that fact...it doesn't matter...
@@WoodWorkLIFE -- I have accumulated a small group of basically pre-war Stanley planes. I've found them very easy to work with and to tune. But you have to be very careful when you purchase, because there is a lot of junk out there. You probably know that Stanley planes have a model number and a type number. The type number tells you roughly when they were made and what features they have. Generally, I've limited my acquisitions to types 10 - 15. These have adjustable frogs as well as lateral adjustment and iron adjustment. Stanley planes are basically fairly easy to work on, and it's possible to get replacement parts via eBay. What I have learned that makes the difference in the product is to let the plane do the work. Take off thin shavings, not massive chunks of wood.
Interesting but not fair by a mile Imo. Applying an hourly rate to set up seems rather silly to me, it's something you can do anytime, it need not cut in to work hours. AND many wood workers, me included enjoy it as a way to relax.
Veritas is great but without set up as a factor the old ass Stanley is king
9:41 THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
Will someone send me a stanley, i badly want it, need it.. caress it.
Not being funny but you can’t add labour charge in setting up planes that’s the users responsibility to sort out to get the tool to where it needs to be,
You can’t charge people to restore a plane in the value of it if you put it up for sake it’s only worth what people are willing to pay for it
You have to value your own time, unless you think your time is worthless...the values are based on valuing your own time as part of the value statement. I kept all these planes BTW, but show me an antique tool dealer who doesn't take there time into account with the price, and I will show you an out of business tool dealer.
Wood.Work.LIFE. I agree but in the uk 🇬🇧 if I got a plane for 10 quid and spent hour restoring it does not mean the value of exceeds 20 odd quid
I restore a Stanley number four and only made 10 quid but lost money getting things to do it,
I noticed in the states people charge more and can get away with it
Drink micro brew plane wood
Why in the world did you spray down your vintage Stanley with lacquer spray paint. -_-
the Japanning was hosed, and I don't buy planes to collect. Japanning was European technique developed to emulate Japanese lacquering anyway. I did it to stop the rust so I can use the plane and keep it in my garage without the rust going further. I suppose I could take the time to mix my own Japanning with asphalt, but there would be even less return on my time invested to get a usable tool.
Don't get too hung up on tradition, respect it, understand it, but don't be a prisoner of it, or you'll be bound to repeat the past.
I know what Japanning is. I'm speaking of it's effect on usage. Material between the separate contacts of the frog cause additional chatter and loss in accuracy, stability, and consistency of each cut between adjustments...I really don't think you should be making videos that 'teach' people about a subject when you clearly aren't knowledgeable on the subject matter itself.
Somewhere out there is some kid that's gonna see your video and buy an old plane on ebay and quickly lose interest in traditional woodworking due to the frustration caused by never getting his plane working. Then that plane will sit awhile and it'll eventually be sold on eBay and only with hope will that simple fix be known by the eventual owner.
Tyler,
Easy to be an armchair critic, not so easy to produce a video. I found this to have lots of useful information for all levels of experience. Thanks Rick.
Come on man No. 4s are as common as dirt. Do whatever you want with them.
8:39 Ouch! I felt that poor Stanley's pain when he drove it into the end of the piece of wood.
Dude, you should know how to use a plane properly before you even think about reviewing them.
thanks
Good video...i dislike the "porno" music :)
+rob Verbeek lol, RUclips stock. I've got better stuff now. Gimme a break my first video :)
I will buy a $10 Veritas and restore it to save money.. lol , seriously ? I thought it was a shootout not a restore some twerk another.
Is no winner when you're bias, no plane will ever outperform a tuned in stanley
I disagree, but there is little difference in the result of a well tuned stanley vs. a high end hand plane
WRong LOL
Veritas may be better, but it's still ugly.
Lol, I personally like the look. But they don't look like old school Stanleys, a tool is for work though...some of these things are too precious.
Six hours to flatten the sole on the Harbor Freight-and THEN another 14+ hours of adjustments??? You lost all your credibility on this one. If you properly plate sanded any plane sole it would be flat in just a few minutes. Six hours of removing material even at the finest grit would have removed all of the sole. And what the hell are you doing with the other 14 hours on an new commercially manufactured plane-tooling up from scratch and re-machining all the surfaces on a Bridgeport? You could build a basic infill smoothing plane from scratch in 20 hours and you expect viewers to believe that it took you 20 hours of your time to get a new, commercially forged and machined plane just to get it to plane wood-poorly? Others on RUclips have taken the HF and even cheaper planes on as a challenge and have gotten them flattened, squared up, and sharpened and able to preform to a usable standard in less than an hour. Disingenuous and ridiculous video to say the least.
Ok ok, you might be missing the message here, also this is my second youtube video ever so given a little slack. If you listen to what I said in the video, the issue is the shotty lateral adjustment mechanism and the thin sole. It is not that it takes so long to get it flat, it takes that long to get good consistent results out of it, and I still wasn't able to because of the faulty lateral adjust mechanism design. I can get it to take a few good shavings withing an hour or two, but if you want a legitimate every day user, you don't want the blade skewing and gouging you work unpredictably. Buy an old Stanley.
So - some basic vocabulary:
Lever cap
Cap iron
Cam
Wet or dry paper isn't "glass" paper
Veritas blade adjustment is copied from a Norris design well over hundred years old - not more "modern" than a cam operation lever cap
Basically if you gonna make a video then at least make an effort with some of the facts.
A shoot out? How US! Why bother? I have have already closed the video.
Nephew, there is no need to be so agressive. If you feel tht way just don't watch any more of the creator's content.
who gives a flying fuq how its packaged? Going out to watch the grass grow.
Enjoy...what a zen moment that must be.
Thank you.