There's another Bach reference in the first page. The first time the picardy 3rd shows up, the melody actually spells - although transposed - the name B-A-C-H. In German, B-A-C-H would be B-flat; A; C; B natural. Those are exactly the same intervals the melody does before the picardy 3rd part: E-flat; D; F; E natural
Although it sounds perhaps quite mechanical and has a large focus on virtuosity, my favourite recording of this is still a live recording by Sokolov, the precision, speed, and passion he plays with is incredible.
@@archsys307 yes! I usually dislike Cziffra's Chopin but the intensity of the bass in this one is so great in Cziffra's rendition that it makes it sound different. Ofc in terms of virtuosity, Sokolov's rendition is superior
When we talk about Bach's influence on Chopin, we should not forget Wojciech Zywny. In Warsaw, a provincial city of the Russian Empire, at a time when no one wanted to listen to Bach in the great capitals of Europe, Zywny introduced Chopin to the two notebooks of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier. Towards the end of his life, in a conversation with Eugène Delacroix, Chopin would say: "The whole logic of music is in counterpoint." This would not have happened if not for Zywny.
Many unpraised people had a decisive role in history! Like the one soviet guy refusing to fire nuclear missiles at the USA once the soviet radar falsely detected missiles coming their way.
I am one of the people who have played and performed this one not at the quality I would have liked. I found it very difficult technically. What I found was that I could get it down well but it deteriated very fast, so as part of a 75 minute program or something I was spending way more time on it if I wanted to nail it but at the expense of my other pieces. I have a couple of fairly bad live performances of if on my channel. I found it very difficult to play super accuracy at speed compared to other more 'difficult' pieces like winter wind and op 25 no 6. I think it is one of those pieces one has to relearn a couple of times to really master and I look forward to doing that in a couple of years. By the way, it wasn't really relevant to the video but I assume you are aware of the sokolov performance of this at an incredible speed with astonishing accuracy. Not my perfect conception of the piece but one of the most impressive technical displays I've ever seen
Yes the Sokolov is amazing! It’s almost out of character for him to blast through something like that, but like everything he does, he plays it with 100% conviction and authority, so it’s hard to resist, even if in retrospect it (maybe) seems too hectic.
Wow, the texture you get out of those inner voices is absolutely magical! It's interesting to me that the same melodies tend to occur on the beats in the lower octave due to the figuration, but Chopin chooses to mark them off the beats and in the middle register instead. It seems to create a wonderful sense of freedom in the melody without disrupting the etude's rhythmic drive, just fantastic stuff!
I agree about the fact that this etude is harder than it gets credit for. I'm working on it since a few weeks, memorized the whole thing at half tempo in like 2 weeks, but the switch 1/5 at crazy tempo, plus the stamina to keep going on and on, makes it a tough but very very useful etude
As ever, a fascinating analysis and an awesome, virtuoso performance that was just fabulous: bravo, Cole! Chopin's early use of the Picardy Third does not signal the Etude is coming to an end, which is when Baroque composers could choose to end a piece in a minor key on a major chord. As you remark, many works by Bach scored in minor keys do end with a Picardy Third, creating powerful nuances in mood and expression in the music. The seriousness, pathos or profound message of the music prior to the cadence is thrown into greater relief by the change of mood suggested by the Picardy Third. This is what Chopin seems to want us to sense just before the development, and I think it is genius! I cannot think of an example of such a transformation occurring in any Baroque music I have heard or played. Bach may have inspired Chopin . . . but I can imagine Chopin would have left Bach astonished with his early and powerful use of a Picardy Third!
Hey Cole. Thank you again for another informative and inspiring talk. Bach and his secondary dominants! i love them. I also had this chorale idea in this music. Bach often had these 'hidden melodies' woven in a complex setting and I think Chopin was inspired by that. His chorale melody woven into this torrent of sound is just brilliant. Thanks again for a great talk and performance.
I'm obsessed about this etude. Chopin really was a genius. Thanks for doing this. My favourite recording is by Aleksander Woronicki. It's on his YT channel and only has just above 5000 views. I would be interested in hearing someone else's opinion about that performance.
Along with 25/7 my favorite of the Chopin Etudes. Love the insights about tonic prolongation and the use of the subdominant---this is why I follow you! Excellent performance, including your flexibility with the tempo to achieve different colors and effects.
First!! This is probably the Chopin etude I enjoyed the most when working in them All fits perfectly in your hands and once you are used to some of the tricky positions (especially the mid section on the first build up) but overall is not as hard as it sounds Btw, although I usually dont like Cziffra's Chopin, the rendition of this one with a heavy emphasis ok the base notes is just perfect
@@TheIndependentPianist all Chopin etudes are hard to make them sound right haha. What I mean is that the hand positions are not as awkward as in op 10 no 4 nor you have to make big leaps and fast hand opening as you have to do in op 10 no 1. op 25 no 12 comes more naturally to the hand than other etudes. Ofc, the repetition of the last note of the arpeggio at fast speed can be tricky and I agree that it takes time to not make it sound like a blurry, non articulated mess
i’ve personally struggled with many interpretations of this etude. as you mention near the end, the chopin etudes should never be clattery, yet that tends to be the default. it’s one of the seeming contradictions for a piece written to be strong, yet also poetic and evocative. i think you’ve managed to convince me to reconsider this etude. i’ve always noticed moments of greatness, but the sum of the parts never impressed me. it may be a symptom of being a music student having heard it poorly performed far too many times. i really like the idea of the distant chorale in the midst of a tempest. i think that really captures the imagery of that part of the piece piece and paying mind to such details in all the sections of the etude is crucial to make it successful in performance. great work once again :)
Yaaaay, Cole. You are very good at this. This is my favorite format of your videos; your clear explanation, insights and comparison, made visible with the score and your fantastically impressive virtuoso inspiring performances! That's why I enjoy following and supporting you! Beautiful buildups in this etude indeed and very carefully and convincingly executed! I love Chopin's music and your piano playing. (But I also follow your other formats with great interest, of course! ;-)
I thought about your question about a baroque piece that uses Picardy 3rds at the beginning and end. I was trying to think of Bach keyboard works in ternary form. More often it's binary form, where the A section in a minor piece ends on the dominant or the relative major. One could consider forms like the Minuet I / Minuet II / Minuet I da capo to be ternary form (or Gavotte, Bourree, etc). I noticed that very often in the minor key suites, the first piece ends on an open fifth (or even an octave), then proceeds to the major for the second piece. Bach is probably leaving out the third intentionally here so the shift from minor to major is not so abrupt. But one could choose hear the end of the first piece as a Picardy third if desired. You could even argue the major 3rd is implied because the 4th overtone of the tonic would be a major 3rd! This is the closest example I came up with so far--what do you think??
That’s a good idea, and probably the closest one could get. I know there are situations where a prelude ends with a picardy and then the fugue is in minor and also ends in major etc, but I can’t think of one continuous mvt with that effect at the moment.
Nicely done and again the 'taste' you impart by way of rhythm is admirable. This piece is often 'smashed' through - loud and too fast but you've captured the 'essence' of it at just the right tempo in my opinion. Highlighting the subtle shades of dynamics and rhythms which illuminate the 'Bachian' shifting harmony structure. Beautfully done. I feel Chopin would approve!
One of my all-time favourite Etudes! Great analysis and playing as usual! I'd be curious about your opinion on the Chopin-Godowsky version of this piece - I think it's one of the best and most satisfying - in C# minor (like his Revolutionary version too). A video about the Godowsky versions you think are most musically successful would be interesting too! I enjoy them all to some degree but some are definitely more satisfying than others. I particularly LOVE the Mazurka he creates from Op 25 no 5 and the Polonaise he creates from op 25 no 4. Those ones totally reinvent the pieces rhythmically instead of layering technical wizardry and added melodies like most of the others do.
Thank you! Yes, I’ve been wanting to do a few of the Godowsky studies at some point, I’ll keep those in mind. I don’t remember the Godowsky version of this one, I’ll go take a look
There's another Bach reference in the first page.
The first time the picardy 3rd shows up, the melody actually spells - although transposed - the name B-A-C-H.
In German, B-A-C-H would be B-flat; A; C; B natural.
Those are exactly the same intervals the melody does before the picardy 3rd part: E-flat; D; F; E natural
Although it sounds perhaps quite mechanical and has a large focus on virtuosity, my favourite recording of this is still a live recording by Sokolov, the precision, speed, and passion he plays with is incredible.
I like that one also!
Sokolov for the cold, merciless mechanical wrath of the sea. But Cziffra for the leviathan ocean
@@archsys307 yes! I usually dislike Cziffra's Chopin but the intensity of the bass in this one is so great in Cziffra's rendition that it makes it sound different. Ofc in terms of virtuosity, Sokolov's rendition is superior
When we talk about Bach's influence on Chopin, we should not forget Wojciech Zywny. In Warsaw, a provincial city of the Russian Empire, at a time when no one wanted to listen to Bach in the great capitals of Europe, Zywny introduced Chopin to the two notebooks of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier. Towards the end of his life, in a conversation with Eugène Delacroix, Chopin would say: "The whole logic of music is in counterpoint." This would not have happened if not for Zywny.
Many unpraised people had a decisive role in history! Like the one soviet guy refusing to fire nuclear missiles at the USA once the soviet radar falsely detected missiles coming their way.
I am one of the people who have played and performed this one not at the quality I would have liked. I found it very difficult technically. What I found was that I could get it down well but it deteriated very fast, so as part of a 75 minute program or something I was spending way more time on it if I wanted to nail it but at the expense of my other pieces. I have a couple of fairly bad live performances of if on my channel.
I found it very difficult to play super accuracy at speed compared to other more 'difficult' pieces like winter wind and op 25 no 6.
I think it is one of those pieces one has to relearn a couple of times to really master and I look forward to doing that in a couple of years.
By the way, it wasn't really relevant to the video but I assume you are aware of the sokolov performance of this at an incredible speed with astonishing accuracy. Not my perfect conception of the piece but one of the most impressive technical displays I've ever seen
Yes the Sokolov is amazing! It’s almost out of character for him to blast through something like that, but like everything he does, he plays it with 100% conviction and authority, so it’s hard to resist, even if in retrospect it (maybe) seems too hectic.
Genial music by F.Chopin and absolutely fantastic performance 🎹👏👍thanks for sharing All the best
Thanks for adding lot to my understanding of this, my far and away favorite, etude. -Toby
Chopin forever! ❤
Wow, the texture you get out of those inner voices is absolutely magical! It's interesting to me that the same melodies tend to occur on the beats in the lower octave due to the figuration, but Chopin chooses to mark them off the beats and in the middle register instead. It seems to create a wonderful sense of freedom in the melody without disrupting the etude's rhythmic drive, just fantastic stuff!
I agree about the fact that this etude is harder than it gets credit for. I'm working on it since a few weeks, memorized the whole thing at half tempo in like 2 weeks, but the switch 1/5 at crazy tempo, plus the stamina to keep going on and on, makes it a tough but very very useful etude
Really beautiful. I love how you brought out the deep reverent spiritual quality of this piece. Really rare.
As ever, a fascinating analysis and an awesome, virtuoso performance that was just fabulous: bravo, Cole!
Chopin's early use of the Picardy Third does not signal the Etude is coming to an end, which is when Baroque composers could choose to end a piece in a minor key on a major chord. As you remark, many works by Bach scored in minor keys do end with a Picardy Third, creating powerful nuances in mood and expression in the music. The seriousness, pathos or profound message of the music prior to the cadence is thrown into greater relief by the change of mood suggested by the Picardy Third. This is what Chopin seems to want us to sense just before the development, and I think it is genius! I cannot think of an example of such a transformation occurring in any Baroque music I have heard or played. Bach may have inspired Chopin . . . but I can imagine Chopin would have left Bach astonished with his early and powerful use of a Picardy Third!
Hey Cole. Thank you again for another informative and inspiring talk. Bach and his secondary dominants! i love them. I also had this chorale idea in this music. Bach often had these 'hidden melodies' woven in a complex setting and I think Chopin was inspired by that. His chorale melody woven into this torrent of sound is just brilliant. Thanks again for a great talk and performance.
I'm obsessed about this etude. Chopin really was a genius. Thanks for doing this.
My favourite recording is by Aleksander Woronicki. It's on his YT channel and only has just above 5000 views. I would be interested in hearing someone else's opinion about that performance.
The clarity is incredible! No notes get caught in the storm of the very rich textures of this etude because of the pedal.
Along with 25/7 my favorite of the Chopin Etudes. Love the insights about tonic prolongation and the use of the subdominant---this is why I follow you! Excellent performance, including your flexibility with the tempo to achieve different colors and effects.
First!! This is probably the Chopin etude I enjoyed the most when working in them
All fits perfectly in your hands and once you are used to some of the tricky positions (especially the mid section on the first build up) but overall is not as hard as it sounds
Btw, although I usually dont like Cziffra's Chopin, the rendition of this one with a heavy emphasis ok the base notes is just perfect
Ah well, I disagree that it's easier than it sounds! I think to make it sound really great takes a lot of work.
@@TheIndependentPianist all Chopin etudes are hard to make them sound right haha. What I mean is that the hand positions are not as awkward as in op 10 no 4 nor you have to make big leaps and fast hand opening as you have to do in op 10 no 1. op 25 no 12 comes more naturally to the hand than other etudes.
Ofc, the repetition of the last note of the arpeggio at fast speed can be tricky and I agree that it takes time to not make it sound like a blurry, non articulated mess
i’ve personally struggled with many interpretations of this etude. as you mention near the end, the chopin etudes should never be clattery, yet that tends to be the default. it’s one of the seeming contradictions for a piece written to be strong, yet also poetic and evocative. i think you’ve managed to convince me to reconsider this etude. i’ve always noticed moments of greatness, but the sum of the parts never impressed me.
it may be a symptom of being a music student having heard it poorly performed far too many times. i really like the idea of the distant chorale in the midst of a tempest. i think that really captures the imagery of that part of the piece piece and paying mind to such details in all the sections of the etude is crucial to make it successful in performance. great work once again :)
You think you could do one on etude 10 no 5?
@@MRulli427 yep, that’s one I’m working on right now. Almost there!
@@TheIndependentPianist Thank you so much 😁, I am also working on that piece so hearing your interpretation would be awesome. Good luck👍
Yaaaay, Cole. You are very good at this. This is my favorite format of your videos; your clear explanation, insights and comparison, made visible with the score and your fantastically impressive virtuoso inspiring performances! That's why I enjoy following and supporting you! Beautiful buildups in this etude indeed and very carefully and convincingly executed! I love Chopin's music and your piano playing. (But I also follow your other formats with great interest, of course! ;-)
I thought about your question about a baroque piece that uses Picardy 3rds at the beginning and end. I was trying to think of Bach keyboard works in ternary form. More often it's binary form, where the A section in a minor piece ends on the dominant or the relative major. One could consider forms like the Minuet I / Minuet II / Minuet I da capo to be ternary form (or Gavotte, Bourree, etc). I noticed that very often in the minor key suites, the first piece ends on an open fifth (or even an octave), then proceeds to the major for the second piece. Bach is probably leaving out the third intentionally here so the shift from minor to major is not so abrupt. But one could choose hear the end of the first piece as a Picardy third if desired. You could even argue the major 3rd is implied because the 4th overtone of the tonic would be a major 3rd! This is the closest example I came up with so far--what do you think??
That’s a good idea, and probably the closest one could get. I know there are situations where a prelude ends with a picardy and then the fugue is in minor and also ends in major etc, but I can’t think of one continuous mvt with that effect at the moment.
Your choice of Chopin op25 no12 is really fitting after your video on Liszt Ballade 2!
I wish you have a nice weekends
Nicely done and again the 'taste' you impart by way of rhythm is admirable. This piece is often 'smashed' through - loud and too fast but you've captured the 'essence' of it at just the right tempo in my opinion. Highlighting the subtle shades of dynamics and rhythms which illuminate the 'Bachian' shifting harmony structure. Beautfully done. I feel Chopin would approve!
Hi Cole, thank you so much for this most insightful tutorial and awesome performance.
One of my all-time favourite Etudes! Great analysis and playing as usual!
I'd be curious about your opinion on the Chopin-Godowsky version of this piece - I think it's one of the best and most satisfying - in C# minor (like his Revolutionary version too).
A video about the Godowsky versions you think are most musically successful would be interesting too! I enjoy them all to some degree but some are definitely more satisfying than others.
I particularly LOVE the Mazurka he creates from Op 25 no 5 and the Polonaise he creates from op 25 no 4. Those ones totally reinvent the pieces rhythmically instead of layering technical wizardry and added melodies like most of the others do.
Thank you! Yes, I’ve been wanting to do a few of the Godowsky studies at some point, I’ll keep those in mind. I don’t remember the Godowsky version of this one, I’ll go take a look