Wayne Grudem on Open Theism | Systematic Theology, 2nd Edition
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Dr. Wayne Grudem (Distinguished Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies, Phoenix Seminary) explains and critiques Open Theism.
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"God behind the scenes ordains in advance what history will be and what actions we will take, but we aren't aware of what that is in our life and He doesn't violate our will, but somehow enables us to choose what we most want to do but that fits in with His plan for what we are going to do" ..... So if God ordains what actions we will take, how is that not a violation of our will? Sorry, but this is theological Swiss cheese.
How about Foreknowledge doesn't = determinism. Problem solved. 😉
I agree it is a clear violation of freewill. And moreover a fully determined universe would just be a complete bore to god.
Yeah I was thinking that maybe Christians should separate on highly disputable topics that under scrutiny fall apart, make them science and dogma unable to be questioned, and high priest of this logic we have the right to banish any and all contentors
@@me73941 Absolutely 👌
I agree. This is swiss cheese. God has chosen to give up his future knowledge so that men can be truly free. But in the old testament, he had to choose to prove he was God a few times by tapping into his omniscience, but then retracted it again. Just because God predestined the cross and a few historical events doesn't mean he predestined everything!
Was God telling Cain the truth that if he corrected his attitude along with his sacrifice that he would be accepted? Or did God plan before time that Cain would kill Abel? Open theism is an attempt to take the Scriptures at face value... a thing that Calvinism only does when it suits them.
Our free will doesn’t interfere with God’s omniscience and his omniscience doesn’t interfere with our free will. He knows what we will do but we still have free will. He knows the future and even ordains it but we are responsible for our choices. He is omniscient and powerful enough to be aware of, to know, and to have a preplanned response for any of our possible choices even though he knows what we ultimately will do because he’s not limited by time and space. So even though He knows what we will do and Whether or not we want to cooperate with His will it is still our choice.❤
This wasn't a substantive refutation of Open Theism at all.
Agreed, he justified his position more from the establishment coming against the Open Theist and deciding to toss them out of their association. I believe that's the logical fallacy of Appeal to Authority. The Boss said the truth will set you free and I believe the opossite is equally as true a lie will keep you in bondage.
Open Theism is the only system that is truly faithful to the Scriptures. These “scholars” just learn about what others taught about the Bible such as Augustine or Calvin and just adopt their understanding. They don’t have a single opinion for themselves. If you carefully read the Bible Open Theism shows that God knows all possibilities at that moment but none are certain until they happen. Such as when God says now I know, or because you have done this or that.
So agree with you! But I can understand how they get confused it’s a deep subject, Calvinism on the other hand - that’s just plain evil
Good stuff Ty!! I have also read Pinnock, Sanders and a bunch from Boyd. It surely squares with more of scripture and logic than the alternative, Calvinsm. Grudem in his arrogance stays with traditions of men and rejects any real movement toward truth on this issue. Kudos to Boyd for leaving their association on his own, although I don't agree with all of his stuff. The reformation simply didn't go far enough to teardown the all the lies.
@@garyp.9073 like I jokingly say we need a reformation from the reformation. Start with the early church fathers (pre-Augustine). I also found some more newer Open Theist such as Chris Fisher and Michael Saia and Jesse Morrell. Their books are great.
@@tyrothrock256 sad to say, but this guy wouldn't know the truth on this issue if it fell from the sky and landed on the hood of his car. Keep speaking your biblical view Christendom needs it. Go Yankees!
God says repeatedly that he’s the only one that knows the future. He says repeatedly that he creates and causes events that take place.
Anyone that misses that in the Bible is a moron. Or they simply haven’t read it.
What about all the instances in the bible where god regrets things... Where it did not turn out as hoped? The future is not 100% known to god.... And hence the sickening problem of freewill is solved.... If not so then there is absolutely no freedom and very little point to anything. The cosmos is highly unlikely to be a DVD just playing out its pre recorded tracks. The reason time even exists is just so creative future possibilities can be realised. The present moment is simply the collapse and selection of future possibilities into reality and history.
so you deny the omniscience of God? God can only prophecy because He is a really good guesser or ran all the simulations in a divine supercomputer beforehand?
@@tomtemple69 pretty sure that word "omniscient" does not occur in the bible. It's a human construct. No one knows the future 100%.. that's the entire purposes and essence of time.
A man says to you, "God determines some events, but not all. Therefore, if God yet ordains to give even one more free choice to someone, then the future is at least that much open."
Then he asks whether he is an open theist or something else. What do you say?
When I read the Bible I see Open Theism everywhere, especially in the Old Testament. God's people are constantly trying to persuade God not to do what He said He would do, and sometimes they succeed. God even asks His angels for advice. In Jeremiah 18 God says explicitly that if He says He will do something but the circumstances change, He will no longer do what He had planned He would do. Also prophecies don't contradict Open Theism because prophecies aren't predicting what will happen they are statements of what God will bring to pass. If a pool player calls his shot, no one is impressed by the pool players foreknowledge, they're impressed by his skill. Prophecies are similar, they show off the power of God, not the foreknowledge of God.
Yep and for someone as knowledgeable about the bible as WG... I would have expected this key point to be mentioned.... And he knows it... He was super flustered when pressed about the freewill problem... The future is at least partly open I think.
@@showponyexpressify 🤔 yes, why not mention those pesky scriptures
Lol God asking his own creation for advice? This Is proof the Bible is a lie man made story how could God ask his own creation for wisdom when he's the one that gave them wisdom in the first place? All intelligence and wisdom comes from God.
wait you think God is just a pool player calling shots and then executing those shots? He doesn't know what He will do?
If God knows His own future choices, how can He be free? He’d be unable to do otherwise.
🤔 hmmm
That's a very interesting statement, and one I seriously doubt Calvinists have thought about very much, if at all.
Easy God knows his future choices because he decides everything he would do from eternity. All planned out
Also you're missing that God is outside time so God doesn't have any future choices because from God pov there is no future only an enteral now so everything God would do
Would be future for us but now for him
So God is completely free.
So asking if God knows his future actions is absurd
Because he would still be acting upon his will. God’s will is an unchanging will. It is him fulfilling his desires and the plans of his heart. He’s free because he desires to do what he knows he will do. He wouldn’t be free if his will was not his will and yet he still had to act upon it.
We can be free if He knows. His knowing still allows for our freedom.
Interesting, do you feel the same way about Calvinism?
He’s a Calvinist
@@thomasthellamas9886 yeah, I kind of figured that, and clearly it clouds, his line of reason
@@dantombs5697 Respectfully, how do you know what open theism is but not who Wayne Grudem is?
Yeah, I guess I’ve encountered a lot of people that think that they’re deep thinkers, some truly are, some are like this guy.
I enjoy them, but I found that they’re very lonely people.
Some of them are grandiose narcissistic types. I think the church is a way of developing that type of minister.
Literalism is the issue. If we assume a literalistic interpretation of Scripture, the Open Theist position is hard to argue with at key points. For me the takeaway, however, is not that God doesn't know the future, but that not all of Scripture is meant to be taken so literally. I would add that, if we take all such Scriptures literally, we have a God who doesn't fully know the present, who moves around in space, has a body, etc. Just read Genesis, or Psalms. Opponents of Open Theism would be in a much stronger position if they could provide a better rationale for interpreting these parts of Scripture non-literalistically. This, by the way, could solve a host of other serious problems, many of them having to do with science and faith.
God doesn't need to know the future in order to guide us in the present in order to build the future. This is self-evident.
How so?
@@christopherskipp1525 Never got a response as expected.
@@christopherskipp1525. If you want an answer to the question, you have convenient access to read books by openness of God authors just like open theists have. It is wise to research this question for yourself without depending on Calvinists to tell you what to believe about it.
@@leonardu6094 . If you want an answer to the question, you have convenient access to read books by openness of God authors just like open theists have. It is wise to research this question for yourself without depending on Calvinists to tell you what to believe about it.
@@tellingtruthexperiencingli9355 1) I'm not a calvinist. 2) I've read open theist literature and it's just as incoherent as the OP's comment.
Anyone thinking prophecy doesn't' provide massive proof for open theism isn't looking very closely; Jonah's prophecy, the prophecy that the people of the Exodus would make the promised land, prophecies God revokes in Judges 2, Hezekiah's prophecy, God predict Israel will repent only to admit He was wrong, God predicts if the message is told verbatim (later even written) they will repent, the prophecy of Babylon taking Tyre that they grow bald waiting on, the prophecy of Egypt taking Tyre, Jesus predicting his return in his follower's lifetime, God predicting he wouldn't lead Israel through the exodus, or that He would destroy them and start over with Moses .... all in all, close examination of prophecy leaves us with an open view from the bible.
It doesn't leave me with said view.
@@christopherskipp1525 Maybe you fall into my category of not looking very closely. When you have a dozen or so prophecies that don't come to pass, that's massively telling.
@@briancross9571 What, pray tell, are you talking about?
@@christopherskipp1525 Try reading the examples I listed. Each of them represent a time when the prophecy did not come to pass.
@@briancross9571 God can not claim the end from the beginning without being God. He is the first and the last. The Alpha and the Omega. Declaring the end from the beginning. And you are indeed correct there isn’t prophecy’s yet fulfilled. More than likely due to the fact it’s gonna be in God’s perfect timing. Not ours. It took approx 1500-2000 years from genesis 3:15 to Jesus. Not because he said it would take 1500-2000 years. But because God done seen the end from the beginning and planned it from the beginning when where how why and what would happen before it ever happened
Interesting that he doesn't mention L.D. McCabe or Gordon C. Olson.
Calvinists hate open theism
Titles??? The bible says Jesus was a man of no reputation, therefore how are we gonna obtain one? Willie
Yes let’s make enemies of a Christian Brothers, on topics that are highly disputable. Topics that clearly need better definitions, explanations and Biblical scrutiny. Let’s separate on these things! I’m sure this will make Christ proud. But first let’s adds a stoic air of smugness And Divine privilege.
Agreed dude. Sanders, Pinnock and Boyd should feel good that they were taken to task on Open Theism from the establishment......now they know they are getting closer to the truth.
I personally know people in hell because of false and perverse representations of the God of the Bible. Especially if that information is coming from other Christian they should be corrected.
@@garyh2100 Are you saying, that maybe some Calvinists, the ones that God only(notice the sarcasm) died for, may actually be Goats and not Sheep?
@@dantombs5697, there are fault converts in ever flavor of Christianity. I'm talking about misinformation that some believers incorporate into their faith that when promoted as true Christianity causes other people to reject the Savior.
Ah, Grudem explains his motives: he published a text on theology so when the open view began to spread everywhere he felt threatened because people wouldn't buy his book. Grudem is simply plain wrong about Isaiah and doesn't know the text of Isaiah at all, period. In Isaiah God gives a revelation of many things he will bring to pass in the future. He says He will do a 'new thing' and DECLARES it to Judah before it comes to pass, because he is going to make it happen. This absolutely has nothing to do with 'foreknowledge'. There is no 'fortune telling' here, no crystal ball into a metaphysically PRESENT future. God is simply revealing plans he intends to accomplish. He is not reporting the future, rather, he is reporting his plans. ANYONE can see that. Just read the plain text.
Mr. Grudem did you actually listen to yourself talk and what you implied? You assume that God could not reveal through Isaiah that Jesus would come unless God SAW the future. Think about that. Didn't God PLAN Jesus to come? Isn't that what the Messianic prophecies in Isaiah repeatedly and PLAINLY state? How can you actually miss that?
Example: I have power to get in my car and go for lunch after I finish posting. I'm telling you NOW what I'm GOING to do. Does my telling you what I'm going to do in the hour PROVE that the future is there for me to see?
I will be nice: I will make a video and deal with the significant passages from Isaiah you think teach the future is already there so God could declare the end from the END. And I will use clips of your statements from this video to show everyone how the Doctor doesn't have basic reading capacity.
And you can personally award me with an honorary doctorate for convincing you once and for all.
If not, I'll just take all your supporters and followers. Tell people your theology text is wrong, but keep the money you made off of them to teach them a lesson about gullibility and insist they become open theists. Let's be friends. Look at this as opportunity rather than a problem.
The point Grudem is trying to salvage is that of an omniscient god. If you concede to any aspect of open theism then god is not all knowing. I doubt it has anything to do with book sales to be frank.
"If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren."
The chapter heading on this section of OT Law in Numbers 27 is "The Law of Inheritance." Here comes the part that the neo-platonists will not like: God gave His Law in Exodus, we read it in detail in Leviticus, and then the children of Israel were set to enter the promise land....
Then, during the wilderness wanderings, a circumstance arises (the death of Z-something, with no sons) and the daughters petition the Lord (through Moses). And the Lord amends the Law, adding the stipulation above, in Num 27:8-11 in reaction to this circumstance.
That's the plain reading of Scripture. I leave it to you, neo-platonist, to assign a contradictory "meaning."
God knows everything he wants to know of everything there is to know. For instance, He created the universe, included the way anatomies functions. I believe that He trusts that human digestion operates consistently without the need, or desire, to peer into the sewers every time a toilet flushes. Yet I have spoken with Christians who claim that He could not be God without that bit of data.
This comment got me cracking up. Your god is not God.
@@mileshall9235 what cracks me up is believing that God cannot be God without havimg meticulous knowledge of every decomposing pill of poop.
@garyh2100 If he knows the depravity of your heart, then the other thing you mentioned is pretty clean.
@@mileshall9235 ,absolutely not. God cares about the condition of my heart because He loves me.
@@garyh2100 But apparently, according to your view, he doesn't love you enough to know if your body is sick.
Heresy sharpens the true faith-and I’m sure that’s all according to His plan.
God bless ya Wayne.
How is open theism heresy?
@@Miskeen-33 what is heresy? “an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards.” God’s omniscience has been a doctrine held by the church ever since it began. And it’s derived from sacred scripture. It’s one of the holy qualities of a Holy God.
@@harveybarham as an open theist, I am not opposed to omniscience. My view of God's nature is the same as yours. I also think God knows ALL truths.
The only difference is I don't think there ARE any truths about what people will freely choose in the future. Because no one has chosen yet. If people haven't yet made their choices, there's nothing to know - it can't be true that they'll freely do such and such, since there are no facts that this "truth" would correspond to.
My open theism has nothing to do with a different view about God, but rather with a different view about future free actions. I don't think there are any future free choices - they weren't made yet - and as such there can be no facts about them for an omniscient being to know.
@@runningdecadeix4780
Thank you for sharing your view. I can definitely appreciate it, but I just have to disagree. The preponderance of scripture declares God’s Sovereign over all things AND this includes the divine attribute of his Omniscience…
•He declares the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).
•He numbers the days that men live (Job 14:5-7.)
•He controls what is seemingly random chance (Proverbs 16:33)
•He knows the numbers of hairs on a person’s head (Matthew 10:30-31)
•He orders a man’s steps-where he goes and what he does (Proverbs 16:9)
•He knows our very thoughts, even before we speak them (Psalm 139:4).
•He kills and raises up. He makes the poor and the rich (Samuel 2:6)
•He knew (foreknew and predestined) his elect people before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1&2) (Romans 8&9)
•He not only knew but foreordained and decreed the crucifixion (Acts 2:23)
•He foreknew Israel would forsake his covenant which Moses had given them (Deuteronomy 31:16-18)
And there’s more. Much more.
Does this sound like a God who doesn’t know something before it happens? Does this sound like a God who is out of control of his own creation?
Start with God-who he is and his divine attributes-and then reason down to Man.
I promise you that things will start making a lot more sense.
@@harveybarham Recall that I did not deny that God is omniscient. There is no fact that God doesn't know. He knows every truth.
The problem is that, as I said, there is no fact of the matter of what you will freely choose in February 15th 2025. Because you haven't chosen it yet! You have yet to make up your mind. So there is nothing for God to know there. It's not like there is some hidden truth there that is beyond God's gaze - it's that there really is nothing there to know. It's like how the fact that God can't make a square circle isn't any limitation on his power. A square circle is impossible, it's nonsense - it is nothing at all, so the fact that God cannot create one is not really a limitation.
How do you answer that? Because that is the main problem here. We cannot interpret nonsense into Scripture. Most of the passages you cited refer to how God knows every fact (which I do not deny) or has providential control over the world - and you don't have to have foreknowledge to have providential control over the world.
As for knowing the future, there is a sense in which even in open theism God can predict future events (even choices) with astounding accuracy. Because from knowing every fact, he can definitely predict how things will happen with a very high probability - albeit also knowing that there is a chance that other scenarios will occur.
It's just that God cannot know with 100% certainty what you will freely choose to do in 2025 because there is no fact of the matter about that. The future is merely potential, not actual - that's why it's the future. God knows what you CAN do, what you MIGHT do, and even what you will probably do given your present inclinations, psychology and knowledge. But to suggest God knows what you will do in 2025 is to say it is a fact that you choose such and such in 2025, and that is absurd: you haven't made your choice yet! You're the one who would make that fact true, and yet you haven't made it yet. There is nothing for anyone to know there. How do you respond to that?
Is it too hard for us to believe that Almighty GOD knows the future? Why would this be impossible to believe?
We’re not capable of believing that GOD knows EVERYTHING.
So we’re incapable of believing that GOD knows everything?
The GREAT I AM, who created EVERYTHING - doesn’t know everything?
HE knows everything - we have FREE WILL as free as our hearts choose …. HE just knows - we were once unaware that GOD knows, but after believing in JESUS CHRIST - GOD in the flash, we know.
"If absolute foreknowledge be true (God completely knowing the future from eternity past), it is impossible for God to put forth or to originate/initiate/create a simple act of His will to choose anything new to himself, because all His actions that He will ever put forth were always foreknown to Him from all eternity. If His actions were always foreknown to Him from eternity, then the knowledge of His actions are as eternal as He is. If that knowledge is as eternal as He is, then He could not have originated/initiated/created it (because it is eternal, having no beginning as Himself); God could not have originated those thoughts of knowledge any more than he could originate/create Himself. God couldn't be a thinking entity because thinking involves creating new thoughts.
Now, if God did not originate/initiate/create His volitions/choices, then He cannot have a free-will, because He can not have the volition to create a thought new to Himself which would change the present moment in which He is dwelling. If God does not have a free-will to have new thoughts, then He cannot be a living person. If God is not a living person He must be impersonal. If He is impersonal He must be without consciousness (because a living person has consciousness but an inanimate object or force doesn't). If He is without consciousness and has a real existence, He must be without moral character or sympathy. He must be mechanized in all His activities and movements from eternity to eternity, wholly blind and unyielding, not to be persuaded or affected even by prayer."
(Reworded from LD McCabe)
There is nothing God can learn and nothing surprises Him because He knows everything
if He didn't know everything and something could surprise Him, He wouldn't be God
you are trying to say that omniscience = impersonal?
@@tomtemple69 "you are trying to say that omniscience = impersonal?"
Exactly!!! You got it! Its the platonic god in a nutshell, only with less personality.
The bible never speaks of God knowing the future exhaustively. The prooftexts used to prove such are extremely vague, or are contested translations. Meanwhile, very clear verses are ignored because of the presuppositions people hold that God has exhaustive 'foreknowledge' of all events.
Thanks for the question.
Open theism doesn't represent the God of the Bible ... because the God of the Bible forcibly inclines man to sin.
That's some theology you got there.
Such is the ridiculous worldview of hyper calvinists lol
@Sam Yeah that's true. What do you subscribe to?
@Sam Oh I've actually been meaning to have a conversation with an open theist for a while now. I'm not a Calvinist but I'm also not an open theist. Do you personally believe God doesn't know the future?
@Sam What do you mean by "Exhaustively"?
@Sam Thanks for the clarification. Do you see this as an impossibility for God or perhaps somewhere where scripture states this?
Nothing to see here folks; just another calvinist bound to a system instead of being Bound To the SCRIPTURES!
Apparently you wrote, "nothing to see...,' without seeing or listening to the scripture he brought up that directly refutes your little god hypothesis.
@@acarpentersson8271 calvinism(aka - "Deformed Theology") twists and manipulates the Scriptures. Deceived, and being deceived....that's the path of calvinism.
@@ThisIsGonnaBFine
Nice catchphrase, but you said nothing with substance. Slogans aren't arguments. The "deformed theologist" that you think twists scripture gave a few of the scriptures, without any twists, that he says invalidate your puny god theology. So, you are the only one doing what you accuse others of doing. Here you have the opportunity to give chapter and verse that you believe validates a theology of a god who is not omniscient.
@@acarpentersson8271 Friend, not gonna cast my pearls before swine; if Calvinism is Right, then "SOME LIVES MATTER" and Not "WHOSOEVER". Have A Nice Life(even though You're in deception).
@@ThisIsGonnaBFine
Then quit casting your pearls. You obviously have no scripture to support your beliefs, which means your beliefs aren't biblical, and are just your own ideas. That takes you out of being a disciple of Jesus, and thus out of the Church and Christianity. I wouldn't mind if you kept all of your pearls for yourself. Don't soil your pearls here. Oink oink.
The Wayne Grudem answer to Opn Theism is
Wait for it
CALVINISM.
And he closes by saying that no one has answered the quandary of free with ordaining all things.
Um, yes, Mr. Grudem, thy have.
God is God and that bars him from seeing, as the future, what will not occur. We have ABSOLUTE freedom.
ABSOLUTE. Even if a power forces us to act, it cannot force our mind or heart.
Jopnathan' claim of we do what we most desire is anti scripture. The Apostle said that what he wanted to do, he does not do and that which he wants to NOT do, that he does.
There you go, The Godly Scripture of Paul or the Antichristian view of Edwards.
God's ability to see the future is a characteristic of being God. And he sees, via that power, what we, with absolutely free will, most freely will do.
Sometimes absurd statements have to be written down before we can fully appreciate the depth of their absurdity. This is what it takes to shove false doctrine into Holy Scriptures. His solution "resolves" nothing:
"What about the question of free will, human free Choice? I resolve it by saying that we have freedom of inclination. That is, we choose to do what we most want to do, and we do it. I think God behind the scenes ordains events, what history will be and what actions we will take. But we aren't aware of what that is in our life, and He does not violate our will. But, somehow, He enabled us to choose what we most want to do, but that fits in with His plan of what we were going to do. And I don't think that anybody in the history of the world has ever fit those together completely and explained it fully, nor do I think we will in this life of maybe ever."
Foreknowledge is not Predeterminism. Open Theism attempts to rectify a nonexistent problem by limiting God’s omniscience.
I thought OT was a heresy because 99% of the people I heard explain it, explained it wrong.
They make a general blanket statement, a strawman,
God cannot know any future choices
that is not the case.
question is, can God make a free choice, change his mind Interact with his image bearers??
More importantly, can he do something that mortal men say he can’t,
give his image bearers the ability to openly interact in relation to their creator.
Many mortal men say no, and they go on saying that opposers to their view, try to thwart gods sovereign will.
Purposely confusing the point of contention indicates classical theists don’t seem to have a real rebuttal.
I think a vote of the ETS should be held concerning the question of booting out W. Grudem.
Amazing message. He needs some water tho
His opening statement is terrible, “if God knows I’m going to eat Cheerios tomorrow then how can I freely eat cheerios?” That is such a stupid question, the question the open theist poses is “Did God preordain that I am going to eat Cheerios tomorrow?” Much different question…..
“He doesn’t violate our will but somehow enables us to choose what we most want to do, but, that fits in with his plan…” That’s gotta be the least thought through gobble dee goop I’ve ever heard
Dr. Grudem does not and has not attempted to understand open theism because of his unwillingness to challenge his own presuppositions concerning the Calvinism he holds so dearly.
You should repent sir/madame. Jesus Christ loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you
If you concede to open theism then omniscience goes out the back door. That's the point WG is concerned about.
@@showponyexpressify. Omniscience certainly doesn't have to be defined the way Grudem defines it, but Calvinists must have God predestining all things in order for omniscience to work. The issues are much more complex than Grudem presents here and the witch hunt against open theist was beyond the pale in the early 2000s.
Here is what I've learned from conservative Evangelicals in their dialogues with others: If they believe they are right, which they believe they are about most things, this "right" belief seems to give them permission to treat others they disagree with in any way they see fit whether it is ethical or not.
@@kevinevans8892. This comment makes no sense.
No Tulip sandwich in the Bible either.
my journey has nothing to do with free will. I know Calvinism is wrong because it makes God a liar, and of lesser importance, life completely meaningless.
Open theism, seems to be a fair reading of the bible....
I just want to know God, even if pantheism/calvinism is true.
Also, Neo-Platonists, always say, if God doesn't know the future exhaustively, how can we trust him. To that I say, "I've been hurt, but dang!!! Who hurt you?!"
How does Calvinism make God a liar?
@Dandigi God tells man to choose repeatedly. If that choice had already been made in eternity past. He tells us, and them to choose, even though the choice has already been made.
There is no choice in Calvinism, compatabilism is the high sounding nonsense/ empty deciet mentioned in colossians.
A Calvinist concerned about a misrepresentation of God. That's ironic.
Both open theism and Calvinism are unbiblical.
Not a fan of Clark Pinnock.
I'm sure that this will hurt his feelings. Oh, and he's dead so I'm sure he won't mind if some poster doesn't like how he expresses himself.
How can you say this if you haven't read his material?
@@tellingtruthexperiencingli9355, who said I haven’t?
@@Familyman39. Wow! I waited 7 months for this response? Why did you even bother responding at all?
Gotta love Wayne Grudem's dishonest tactics and play on words when discussing Free will. Ever so slimy. I willingly grant that there are in fact many mysteries within the Christian faith that we probably won't get answers to in this life, but however where Grudem and some others go wrong is thinking the issue of God's Sovereignty & Man's Free will is one of those mysteries. It is NOT!
Some of the most evil stuff I've ever read is in his systematic theology book. Stuff like what's in chapters 16 and 32.
Awww. Scary. Poor sweet baby. Can't handle the biblical doctrine of God's elective freedom?
the truth of Scripture is folly to those who are perishing
trying to fit God into your limited human understanding and idolizing your "free" will