Court throws out Kalamazoo fleeing and eluding case
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- The Michigan Supreme Court has overturned the conviction of a man found guilty of fleeing from Kalamazoo police officers, a ruling that is expected to change how Michigan officers articulate reasonable suspicion. (July 23, 2024)
Police chief: “We had no evidence that he was innocent so we went ahead and assumed him guilty. Also without any evidence.”
US policing 101
"And we'll do it again, but we'll write it up better next time"
@@tugmeboatmy thoughts exactly, just can’t admit wrongdoing
Michigan is stuck in the 80s. It's only a matter of time until the police auditors make it here and cost us millions.
@GGwasEZ It's already happened. It's not the auditors that cost us the money, it's the morons who are exposed by the auditors. Not only are they violating roghts daily, but they're either stupid enough or arrogant enough to do it on camera as well. For the most part, why wouldn't they? It costs them nothing. Until charges are regularly brought for violations, they continue to ignore or remain oblivious to rights.
@@tugmeboat I'm in Kalamazoo, from Seattle WA. Trust me, I know. I'm watching it happen in real time. Also, real estate. Those bed and breakfasts Michigan has all over? They are the downfall of real estate. The single biggest thing that causes spikes in housing prices.
Don't support those people.
Our officers weren't there to harass citizens but we did.
@@ethansprofile6670 yeah double speak. We don't condone stop and ID, except for when we do.
yup
So he loses to the Supreme Court and immediately comes out and says the court is wrong and his officers just didn't articulate it correctly?
This man is going to cost the city millions in lawsuits. I hope the people of Kalamazoo are good with their taxes going up.
5:07-5:15 ... translates to "We don't think we did anything wrong so instead of looking into how we violated this man's rights we're going to learn how to better manipulate language."
My thoughts exactly. They are just going to clean up the articulation. I'm using the phrase "clean up" to be polite.
They are always looking for new ways to misconstrue the law
Thank you to the Michigan Supreme Court for upholding our rights..
@chadhaight3894
It says a lot about the copsucking Judges in the lower courts.
Reasonable suspicion of a crime!
Cops have a reading comprehension problem. They read the first few words of a sentence and then stop.
Oh man, it's almost like we are innocent until proven guilty and we have 5th amendment to not answer their questions
Then they call it obstruction or hindering an investigation.
America.... you better step up and get your government under control. That chief is a liar.
Listen to the cop, he still doesn’t get it. They’re going to continue to do whatever they want.
Cops are sovereign citizen nutjobs who think they don't have to follow the same laws as the rest of society.
💯
Oh...of COURSE they're going to continue doing whatever they want.....this ruling will make it a little easier for people getting screwed over to get a little justice for it though.
@@billtate6962
Once the cops have you in their sights and constantly harass you for everything they can get you on and you become unemployable due to your convictions, what else do you have but to turn to crime, and generally it's all because you weren't suitably deferential to some low IQ cop.
and it's gonna get worse when Trump wins, so... get ready for that.
Notice how the department doesn't respect the court's decision??? These cops are sovereign citizens who want to play by their own rules.
💯% it's why cops always call US sovereign citizens when you try to stand on your rights. They are just projecting.
I don’t think you know what the term means
@@momsterzz I don't think you do. Sovereign citizens believe the US laws don't apply to them. That's exactly what cops think.
@@justhereforthecookies8129You’re exactly right. I suspect “momsterz” spends a lot of time kneeling before the blue line gang.
@@justhereforthecookies8129 But it's more than just "the laws don't apply to them". They actually believe that they aren't citizens of the United States and that the government is not actually a legitimate government but a conspiracy that overthrew the original legitimate government. These cops are just assholes.
Chief: "The person may have said he was visiting someone. We had no proof of that."
You don't need proof, doofus. If that guy was there visiting someone, that was none of your business. Are you gonna make everyone going into a Target prove that they're to shop?
They are not entitled to investigate citizens at their will. Gestapo policing needs to stop in America.
You shouldn’t have to prove you’re allowed to be at a private dwelling in the United States of America
Imagine walking up to a cop and asking the cop if he is allowed to be there...
@SkyfromLa
I can understand why cops do want proof that you are permitted in certain neighborhoods such as this, but they also have to respect the laws that say you can be there and don't need to prove that you are allowed.
Legally, you don't.
@@wjf0ne I can't understand why they think you have to prove you have a right to be there.
EXACTLY!
This should never have had to go to the state supreme court. The idea that cops can detain you simply because you're in a "high crime" area is ridiculous. If that is allowed, then any police department can declare any area they choose as "high crime", and thereby detain and potentially arrest ANYONE who is simply in that area.
It's WAY PAST time for the citizens of this country to assert our Constitutional rights. And it's high time to declare that there's no such thing as qualified immunity. If the cops don't understand and adhere to our country's laws and legal rights, then they are no different than any other criminal who would assault you.
As the highest crimes area still remains at the police station
I live in a bad area in kzoo tried to jog from my friend house to my house cuz it was snowing n cold and got pulled over by a cop and another him cop car came around the corner behind me and they wouldn’t lemme walk home even tho I was only 5 houses away because I supposedly fit a description tho I’m the only Spaniard in my neighborhood on my street etc. and that I smelled like alcohol even tho I didn’t drink. And I was only 15 two cops kept me in the cold and questioned me and eventually put gave me a citation for not being on the sidewalk even the in the ghetto nobody shovels the sidewalk. And put me on probation for minor in possession even tho I only smelled like alcahol because he said I did and that was enuff to have a 15 yr old owing the state 1000$ with 6months probation 🎉extortion🎉
@@SunShine-hn7qk harass and collect and F*** the laws at the same time.american police state.
@@douglashoward-t8oBS
@@SunShine-hn7qkYeahhhh you got 6 months probation and a $1000 fine as a child because you "weren't on the sidewalk". I'll take things that never happened for $100 Alex.
What was the reasonable suspicion? Just by being there. You had no proof he did anything wrong. The federal Supreme Court has ruled on this too with precendce.
OKAY CHIEF, WHAT WAS THE CRIME THAT YOUR OFFICERS HAD R.A.S. OF?
Good luck getting a response to that question.
Him being alive
@@timothybutler9859 He's still trying to come up with a legitimate reason for his officers to have detained this guy.
Being suspicious, of course.
That Chief is full of shif😢
The crime is this Chief still not understanding the law😢
Where are those 5 factors written in the constitution?
Lower courts usually ALWAYS side with the police.! Higher courts and appeals courts is where you can finally get justice after YEARS of litigation.! Cops won’t stop their illegal behavior because there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY.!! They are tasked with investigating themselves 🙄 and when found at fault its US the TAXPAYERS who foot the bill for their misdeeds.! This all needs to change.! Glad this man found justice.! A “hunch” is not reasonable articulable suspicion. And cops are not allowed to detain you to check to see if you have committed a crime….only when they have reasonable suspicion by articulable FACTS that crime is a foot.!
Municipal Courts have repeatedly shown that they are just a branch of local PD. The most egregious proof is traffic court....where LITERALLY you are guilty (because the officer wrote the ticket)....unless you can PROVE the officer was wrong....but this has spilled over into criminal court as well.... guilty until YOU prove your innocence. And you're 100% correct...it takes going to higher courts before they even take the CONSTITUTION into account.
Out of 80 countries there are only 2, Iraq and Afghanistan, that have LOWER standards to become a law enforcement officer than the US!!! LET THAT SINK IN???? Law enforcement is the DUMBEST MOST CORRUPT "profession" IN AMERICA!!! They need LESS training than a BARBER, yet they are issued a badge, gun and arrest powers WITH qualified immunity!! They train more on how to apply "pain compliance techniques" and how to shoot/kill and abuse/arrest citizens than they do on the LAWS!!! Would you allow a plumber or electrician who didn't know their jobs work on your house?? Then why are we continuing to allow law enforcement who doesn't know the LAW be out there taking away people's MONEY, FREEDOM and in some cases LIVES??? We must abolish qualified immunity!! The "officer safety" phrase is a FARCE!! In 2023 there were 1329 citizens killed by law enforcement officers a 6.13% INCREASE and 136 law enforcement officers killed by citizens a 39% DECREASE!! So how can they continue to use "officer safety" as an excuse for anything?? All the FTP, ACAB, DEFUND, AUDITS and any other anti-police movements that are mainstream now a days are a direct result of THEIR OWN ACTIONS!! They EARN THE HATE every single day video after video and don't care because they have qualified immunity and know NOTHING will happen to them!! We the People DEMAND BETTER!!!
I do love it when a Chief of Police thinks he knows the law better than the Superior Court. The arrogance of the Chief means you know the whole department is a basket case.
"I don't consent to any searches, seizures, or questions, *so either place me under arrest or leave me alone."*
I know you know those two officers' names. Don't protect them. Thats literally the opposite of your job.
@@danielboone8435 ❤️
A "High Crime Area" is where police are committing crimes.
According to the police, it is illegal to get out of the crossfire.
@heroesandzeros7802
High crime areas also means a high victim area, it's just a pity the cops don't realize that as the harass everyone like they are already judged guilty by them.
@@heroesandzeros7802 Didn't one of the Southern states just pass a law that basically made it illegal to be within 20 feet of a police officer? Which would probably require someone there to run from the police, wouldn't it?
So even though the court said your wrong you still back them?
Criminals with badges always defend each other regardless of the evidence
Cops are sovereign citizens who think they don't have to follow the same laws as the rest of society.
The police chief still stands behind his officers actions even though the supreme court said they were acting illegally. So the police chief and his officers are sovereign citizens who ignore the highest law of the land.
So if your neighborhood is a ‘high crime’ area, it turns into North Korea?
What makes it "high crime"?
Basically, yes, that's the way cops see it. Your unalienable rights mean nothing to them.
@@I_Am_Your_Problem because the cops say it is. I’m not sure if there is some specific metric they use, but our rights seem to be limited when we enter a high crime area. Glad the court finally got this right.
We have reasonable suspicion we can find a crime if you just give us enough of your time...
The Chief just said he needs to train his force to be better at "articulating" the suspicious - to me that sounds like he is training his force to break the 4th and get away with it. How do I conduct rational profiling and articulate the suspicion so it doesn't sound like rational profiling?
Every time “more training” is demanded, more training is provided on how to lie, cheat, steal, and find cowardly loopholes.
The Person who Run was not suspected of any crime. so dont refer to him as suspect
I basically just heard the chief say. "Guilty until proven innocent"
The case with the officer recently shot and killed in Michigan should be impacted by this decision. Officer had no RAS to detain the man, which means the man had every right to walk away. Once the officer put hands on the man, he had every right to defend himself. Once the officer tased the man, he had the right to meet force with force. Training academy and department got that kid killed… encouraging overreach.
As someone who graduated from both the Florida Corrections Academy and the Florida Law Enforcement Academy I must say that not enough time is set aside for legal training.
@@HarryPost-o9c I think that's pretty typical in America, isn't it? In Germany our officers train 2.5-3 years before they're sworn in.
@@Lucas-zg1vz If I were you I wouldn't talk about German police. German police also collude with Nazis to put Jews in concentration camps. Just saying, Adolf!
@@HarryPost-o9c
Because that isn't 'cool' or fun. Legal training isn't exciting. Combat training is fun though.
@user-bx3hz6wl5m you can, idk, do it on your own time. Since ignorance is not an excuse, and we have no training, they also have no excuse to not learn the laws.
They've been using that high crime area since the '60s maybe even the '40s , but it doesn't give any cop the right to violate people Rights,
Why does the guy have to have proof he is visiting someone? Good grief, this cop still doesn’t get it.
And how does an ID provide that answer to cops. Rhetorical question as so many cops are ID addicts.
Dumb cop needs to understand his statement around the 2:52 mark. This is a free country and free people do not owe you or any cop anything, including telling you who they are or what they are doing on public land. My guess is nobody really learned from this and it still continues.
He also doesn't understand Terry v. Ohio. Scary.
To say that officers are not like every other human being and do not from time to time make poor and regrettable decisions would be a blatant lie that destroys the department's credibility. You screwed up and got caught. Are you going to tell me how youre going to make it right and what youre going to do different or are you going to deny doing it and tell me we're seeing things that arent real?
How often do we see these kinda detainments. Very
It certainly does sound like those police officers were on a fishing expedition. Just living in an area or being in an area does not make you suspicious. And if Fox Ridge was having trouble with crime, then they need to do better background checks. Not just a credit check to make sure the check will clear.
They may not be allowed to do background checks. State and local laws can seriously hamper safety efforts by landlords.
@@icecold9511 All corporately owned companies can do background checks there are no laws preventing it.
Expect the Kalamazoo police to be in court as defendants more often now because they just don't care to understand the Constitution they swear an oath to uphold.
"Probable Cause" should be the minimum standard, reasonable or unreasonable suspicion is neither a Misdemeanor nor a Felony!
It should be excessively difficult for the state to take your freedom and/or property, and there should be significant penalties for government servants who violate the Bill of Rights.
The fact that lack of proper training makes it an excuse for officers to break the law is ridiculous! There was no RAS of a crime! They had no grounds to detain him! Chief these officers were harassing people. It's not up to me to prove I have a right to be there!
Out of 80 countries there are only 2, Iraq and Afghanistan, that have LOWER standards to become a law enforcement officer than the US!!! LET THAT SINK IN???? Law enforcement is the DUMBEST MOST CORRUPT "profession" IN AMERICA!!! They need LESS training than a BARBER, yet they are issued a badge, gun and arrest powers WITH qualified immunity!! They train more on how to apply "pain compliance techniques" and how to shoot/kill and abuse/arrest citizens than they do on the LAWS!!! Would you allow a plumber or electrician who didn't know their jobs work on your house?? Then why are we continuing to allow law enforcement who doesn't know the LAW be out there taking away people's MONEY, FREEDOM and in some cases LIVES??? We must abolish qualified immunity!! The "officer safety" phrase is a FARCE!! In 2023 there were 1329 citizens killed by law enforcement officers a 6.13% INCREASE and 136 law enforcement officers killed by citizens a 39% DECREASE!! So how can they continue to use "officer safety" as an excuse for anything?? All the FTP, ACAB, DEFUND, AUDITS and any other anti-police movements that are mainstream now a days are a direct result of THEIR OWN ACTIONS!! They EARN THE HATE every single day video after video and don't care because they have qualified immunity and know NOTHING will happen to them!! We the People DEMAND BETTER!!!
Learn the law before you try to enforce it.
All that copsplaining and the Chief still doesn't understand Officers must have a reasonable suspicion of a crime! Not just suspicion Chief! REASONABLE SUSPICION OF A CRIME! You can't just detain someone because you want to. Or because you don't know why or what an individual is doing, or not doing! In other words, for simply being!
This is very simple stuff. Unfortunately, the coulter of policing dictates that Officers prioritize ego, power and control of the citizenry. Constitutional rights and adherence to the law is secondary.
Out of 80 countries there are only 2, Iraq and Afghanistan, that have LOWER standards to become a law enforcement officer than the US!!! LET THAT SINK IN???? Law enforcement is the DUMBEST MOST CORRUPT "profession" IN AMERICA!!! They need LESS training than a BARBER, yet they are issued a badge, gun and arrest powers WITH qualified immunity!! They train more on how to apply "pain compliance techniques" and how to shoot/kill and abuse/arrest citizens than they do on the LAWS!!! Would you allow a plumber or electrician who didn't know their jobs work on your house?? Then why are we continuing to allow law enforcement who doesn't know the LAW be out there taking away people's MONEY, FREEDOM and in some cases LIVES??? We must abolish qualified immunity!! The "officer safety" phrase is a FARCE!! In 2023 there were 1329 citizens killed by law enforcement officers a 6.13% INCREASE and 136 law enforcement officers killed by citizens a 39% DECREASE!! So how can they continue to use "officer safety" as an excuse for anything?? All the FTP, ACAB, DEFUND, AUDITS and any other anti-police movements that are mainstream now a days are a direct result of THEIR OWN ACTIONS!! They EARN THE HATE every single day video after video and don't care because they have qualified immunity and know NOTHING will happen to them!! We the People DEMAND BETTER!!!
All the judges that denied the motions and rulings need to be sent back to law school for training.
There really needs to be serious consequences for police misconduct. And I don't mean lawsuits. Lawsuits cost them nothing, and they learn nothing.
There should be no such thing as "qualified immunity". You're right, short of committing murder, the cops almost never face ANY consequences. And they're even pretty good at escaping murder charges, as "officer safety" seems to come down to their word against the now-dead "perpetrator".
You can't detain someone because you don't know something, you have to know something, i.e., a fact that leads you to believe they are involved in criminal activity. It is that simple. They still think not knowing is enough.
And therein lies the problem. There is no real definition of "reasonable suspicion" this needs to be challenged it needs to be clarified.
There is no incentive for bad Leo’s to change. They are seldom held accountable, and when they are the cost is paid by tax money, if they’re fired the next department down the street is willing to hire them no matter how bad their record is. But they can’t understand why we believe they are so dangerous! This chief doesn’t believe in innocent until proven guilty or RAS. Reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime!
Out of 80 countries there are only 2, Iraq and Afghanistan, that have LOWER standards to become a law enforcement officer than the US!!! LET THAT SINK IN???? Law enforcement is the DUMBEST MOST CORRUPT "profession" IN AMERICA!!! They need LESS training than a BARBER, yet they are issued a badge, gun and arrest powers WITH qualified immunity!! They train more on how to apply "pain compliance techniques" and how to shoot/kill and abuse/arrest citizens than they do on the LAWS!!! Would you allow a plumber or electrician who didn't know their jobs work on your house?? Then why are we continuing to allow law enforcement who doesn't know the LAW be out there taking away people's MONEY, FREEDOM and in some cases LIVES??? We must abolish qualified immunity!! The "officer safety" phrase is a FARCE!! In 2023 there were 1329 citizens killed by law enforcement officers a 6.13% INCREASE and 136 law enforcement officers killed by citizens a 39% DECREASE!! So how can they continue to use "officer safety" as an excuse for anything?? All the FTP, ACAB, DEFUND, AUDITS and any other anti-police movements that are mainstream now a days are a direct result of THEIR OWN ACTIONS!! They EARN THE HATE every single day video after video and don't care because they have qualified immunity and know NOTHING will happen to them!! We the People DEMAND BETTER!!!
"They had no proof of that" you just said it yourself Chief, you had no proof of a crime.
we take the time to investigate BUT we DEMAND ID first and threaten you with chains and a cage BEFORE the investigation!!!
He better be suing.
I have reason to believe that could have satisfied 5 of the "checks" that the new chief is the leader of the local KKK. I stand by that reasonable articulation. As a country, America has frequently had these kinds of crimes routinely occur in this state and most often led by local law enforcement. Therfore, it's reasonable to assume that this manager of cops is the leader of the local Klan there in great northern state of Michigan.
Helpful for the chief to admit he's going to ignore the supreme court and his officers will keep doing things exactly the same way.
Actually, he needs to sue the department. The cops violated their oath and the rights of a citizen.
The chief says "based on reasonable suspicion". The part he (and most police, seemingly) fail to understand: OF WHAT? If there is no WHAT, there is no reasonable suspicion. It is not a hard concept, except that is it a major inconvenience to police who feel they can do whatever they like, whenever they like.
did no one hear them say “police enforcing private property policy”?!?! no red flags? any? anyone? Bueller??
If cops are allowed to declare an area of a city a high crime area and violate citizens rights because of it then any area of the city will surely be given that designation and the police will insist they need more funding (tax dollars out of citizens pockets).
That chief is a gang member! A BLUE LINE GANG MEMBER!
It has to be reasonable suspicion of a CRIME to detain someone. Just suspicion is not enough. Now file the lawsuit.
So the alleged crime that they had reasonable cause to investigate was trespassing in an apartment complex where large numbers of people come and go? Those visiting that complex shouldn’t have their constitutional rights violated simply because they decided to visit a friend or loved one.
How long will the kidnappers be in jail? Oh, no punishment for them? Ok.
The guy doesn't have to tell the police anything.
"To lie in a report" is what the chief meant.
You said it yourself, they wanted time to investigate, you investigate first, and then detain.
The Chief still does not get it.
💯
Terry v Ohio. They were 'casing the joint' prior to a burglary. A group had one at a time gone to look at a jewelry shop window.
That is a long way from just being in a public space where there have been crimes in the past.
The idea was 'crime is afoot', the courts should insist on clear evidence of wrongdoing.
the courts should insist on clear evidence of wrongdoing. Exactly!
These cop think everyone is suspicious, walking ,riding a bike ,sitting in your car ,being on the side walk , harrass everyone,your constitutional right dont stop because they want to ID you
Why would anyone have to prove they were just visiting the complex? In the absence of any report of a crime there was no reason to suspect that there was a crime to investigate.
Fire the police chief.
He supports the unlawful behavior.
The standard is "5 factors"? So, being in a "high crime" area is 1. Maybe, refusing to ID is 2. But where's 3, 4, and 5?
Chief is full of it.
The chief fails to understand you don't have to explain why you're going there. He forgets reasonable suspicion requires a specific crim or crimes.
Too bad this won't have any effect on this rampant unlawful behavior. They know there are no repercussions.
Good, that cop should be fired. A man or woman is PRESUMED innocent.
You have the RIGHT to remain silent and not incriminate yourself.
Police cannot assume trespassing without a complaint from a land owner. Police have no authority to solicite a trespass complaint from a land owner or assume the position of plaintiff in a trespass complaint.
They lied as usual. A police officers word should be considered at the same level of a convicted criminal. Their knowledge of the law in many cases is equivalent to that of a five year old.
Police need to work of facts they know and not off suspicion of could be might be.
Reasonable suspicion OF A CRIME! Suspicion is not a crime!"
A subject of no crime cannot be charged with eluding. The stop was unlawful from the start.
I know a person who is trying to take his case to the highest court here in Michigan after he lost his case and appeal then get told by the appeal judge that he was sorry but he cant do anything with out starting a new investigation seeing as a lot of the evidence was withheld in his first trial. And that was to much for him to deal with so now my friend is looking at 5-20 for something he didnt do. They found evidence in his house but never found enough evidence on him for the crime yet they took the word of the other person in the house who does have a past with the same crime.
The officers need to articulate the reasons for the stop could be interpreted as they need to make something up.
So glad Main Stream Media is covering these types of incidents.
If a person is not committing a crime, or is not being pointed to by victims or witnesses as one who has committed a crime, how can he be considered a 'suspect' by the cops?
The chief fails to mention that in Terry, the officer observed the suspects for an extended time before the stop.
I had an officer tell me, they will just make up something. At that point i lost all respect
They are looking to arrest somebody for a crime they don't have.
Anytime I see public safety on a police car I laugh
Fire that chief now he thinks harassing citizens is ok he and his officers are going to rack up lawsuits
The media won’t call him out on his stupidity and totalitarian attitude.
Great information. Thanks for posting.
" were going to learn from this " YA , RIGHT .
The cops think it's guilty until proven innocent.
Being there means a crime is afoot??? What a clown
Since when do we have to prove we are innocent of doing nothing wrong.
Bootlickers are big mad rn, LoL.
guilty until proven innocent, get a real job
If any drugs were found in the car, that would be inadmissible. No RAS to search the vehicle.
Just because we live in a high crime area doesn't mean we have to have our civil liberties violated. Definitely not reasonable articulable suspicion.
Take away qualified immunity and you will see a decrease of misbehavior by the police.
Chief basically said, you are guilty until you prove your innocence to the police.
Reasonable suspicion ... of what crime? You have to have a crime you suspect someone has, is or is about to commit.
What 5 to 7 factors did the pigs secure to determine this guys guilty till proven innocent?
Officers do not have the law on their side if there isn't a crime.
Officers must be called to private property. They can not just show up and start questioning people. That's why it's up to a private business or apartments to hire their own security.
If you have the right to flee do you also have the right to stand your ground with deadly force if it is being illegally usurped?
Issue #1 cops should not be working as security guards.