Yep…new trends in the game…just like taking your shot at the empty net and giving up the icing! The team probably has stats that you don’t. It’s not the same as comparing to prevent defense in football…hockey doesn’t have set plays! This is especially true this season for the Sharks where their defense is questionable and their best puck moving dman is on IR. When playing a top tier team your best hope is to bend, not break. The Sharks have broken a lot of times in the 3rd…l’ll go with the coach over some Hockey Guy. Time to evolve with the game old men!
@@sibeguy I mean in the NBA they had stats telling them getting 3 pointers was better than getting 2 pointers and now people dislike it a lot more then they used to because of it. Stats say one thing but people don't have to enjoy or like it, unless their team wins a lot that way, and then they will hate it if it seems to make them lose a lot. In the end its as usual, nobody is right and we can't have anything nice.
@@bobantoniuk3953 I wish it was only in these two games. Sabres doing this all season. Score few goals in first period and then they are scared to cross ofensive blue line. They lost so many points thanks to this
This is the reason why I loved the Russian Five when they played in Detroit. Even in the documentary of the same name, they said they played with the mentality of not giving up the puck. Stevie Y needs to have our current team sit and watch that film regularly, they could learn something from it.
The teams who I don't see dumping the puck, sitting back on the lead -teams like Vegas, Tampa, and Avalanche, are the teams who are ALWAYS contending for the cup.
As an Oilers fan, I couldn't agree more. They have a long history of blowing leads (eg. 5-0 lead in the playoffs evaporating = exasperating). No lead is safe until just before the final whistle.
Agreed. The Buf vs Col game had me up in arms Buf kept giving the puck away. Particularly annoyed me since the last time Buf faced Col, Col had an epic comeback.
I think part of the reason a lot of teams end up lazily lobbing the puck out is because they are losing the energy management battle of the game. Teams do this even when they don’t have a big lead, but it’s much more noticeable when a team blows a lead because of this strategy. The intent of this tactic isn’t to just give up the puck, the tactic is really to lower the energy expenditure. An often-overlooked aspect of hockey is energy management. Playing conservatively with a lead helps reduce the risk of turnovers and minimizes high-stakes situations that could reignite the opponent’s momentum. It’s not about 'giving up' the puck but rather about maintaining structural discipline and ensuring players are in optimal positions defensively to protect their lead. On a macro level, this strategy is essential over the span of a season. Hockey is a physically demanding sport, and managing energy efficiently across the season is critical to reducing injuries and maintaining peak performance for the playoffs. Pressing more aggressively even with a comfortable lead is certainly more exciting to watch, but it increases the risk of mistakes, and wear-and-tear injuries. I think it’s easy to call it a passive approach, but really, it’s a calculated and effective strategy for closing out games. It’s why playoff hockey is so much more intense, the balance between performance and energy management changes - teams can empty the reserve tanks, so to speak.
“A 2 goal lead is the worst lead to have” - my high school coach. I feel like it applies here. Teams get too comfortable, they start dumping, and bam comeback.
Truer words have never been spoken. There is almost ZERO percent chance of you giving up a lead if that particular item is on yours or a teammates hockey stick, particularly if you're nearly 200 feet from your own goal line. The SAFEST thing you could ever do to 'protect' the lead, is safeguard that particular disc shaped thing and hold onto it as if it's crucial for the other team to make a comeback against you. Thanks for this one, Shannon! (I also hope this provided some catharsis from that recent Vancouver/Seattle game...or both of them? Because they could each effectively illustrate your point)
I agree completely. I've never understood giving up the puck. Other things that drive me crazy. The drop pass on the power play and then immediately dump it in is insanity. Six foot six inch goalies spending the entire game on their knees and making themselves three feet tall and getting beat upstairs five times. The defenceman that throws his body on the ice on a two on one and takes himself completely out of the play.
Yep, it can drive you up the wall, and this was something that drove my Grandfather nuts, he used to say, "You do all that work to get the puck and just throw it away?"
The NHL season is a long rough one. Playing an aggressive all out 200 ft game uses more energy than the pure defense dump it out 130 ft game. Or at least it could be perceived that way. So, with a big lead I suspect players fall into the dump it out mode to hopefully save more energy for the next game. Plus, there’s the whole ‘don’t let the other team getting any odd man rushes’ aspect.
When my team takes a 2 or 3 goal lead and then goes into a defensive shell, blowing the lead and lucky to get a point, drives me crazy. Like.......back out of the garage and I am there.
I agree with you on teams changing their game in the 3rd period to protect a lead. To be fair, teams have won Cups playing that way for an entire game. They called it The Trap. The only major difference is that the team playing that system would be waiting for the other team to make a mistake and they'd pounce and score on them. But they'd keep that system going for the entire game. The other difference, obviously, was that we didn't have obstruction penalties back then, so you could hook and hold like crazy and that obviously helped with The Trap. You could have a big defence that couldn't skate. I honestly don't know how a late 90s Scott Stevens or early 2000s Derian Hatcher would fair in today's game because they were big, physical guys, but weren't known for their skating. You can't just stand still, throw a hit or let a guy fly by you and expect to hold them up just enough without pulling them down and not get a penalty. In the old days, sitting back in the 3rd period might have worked. You can't do that anymore, because eventually you'll start taking penalties if you're not moving your feet. You can play a modified trap system, but you still have to press and move your feet. I just think it's a matter of some coaches being slow to adapt to the changing game. It's not easy to only play defence in today's game. I don't know how the 1995 or 2001 Devils would fair in today's game. They relied a lot on being able to hold guys up just enough and then running them into the boards.
The whole point of the phrase "The best offense is a good defense" is that when your defense plays well, you don't need them as much. The less your defense are playing the more your offense is playing and getting scoring chances. When you are running the offense, the other team is far, far , far less likely to score and it's crazy how may teams play completely opposite to this.
I agree somewhat, but I think there is some calculated risk avoidance involved. Plain and simple, you can't change while on defense, especially if you can't exit your zone. If you create a turnover, you may still be in a somewhat risky zone quickly, and you are almost guaranteed to be less fresh as the opposition, along with your teammates, as you just finished being on the defensive. If you compare to football, lobbing the puck out of the zone gives your guys a breather you likely need more than the opposition, and forces the other team to enter the zone again, both much stronger factors than in football. It's also not left as an option for players in order to simplify the micromanaging from players on the ice... You don't really want them calculating whether they have enough wind to chance a fluke takeaway and be forced to cover another tiring defensive stint, for you and all your other potentially tired teammates. The chances aren't generally in your favor, you probably have a better chance to be picked and forced to defend while tired than actually entering the offensive zone against an opposing line that is still fresher than you.
CBA states that the team in a commanding lead must surrender the control of the game to the opponent to make the games more exciting and boost the ratings. Gary was adamant about that.
The fellow who organized our pick-up sessions at the local rink questioned the dump and chase strategy. He told me that if I gain the blue line and I’m by myself surrounded by opposing players, just control the puck and force the opposition to take it away until teammates arrive.
Protas and Dubois are two of the best in the league at playing dump and chase. But yeah, sometimes Washington gets away from chasing. It sounds like Leonard is going to be one of the best at the dump and chase, so I'm excited about him.
Agreed. I'm no coach, but in the age of advanced analytics and experience, it's interesting how much of the simple basics of the game are overlooked. I feel like this is relevant with a lot of things in life.
I heard former defenseman Jamie Rivers tell a story on a podcast one time about when he went to the Red Wings in 03-04. Team was stacked with Brett Hull, Yzerman etc. He was used to simply dumping the puck in and giving it away when he was with the Blues and other teams. After he did that his first time in Detroit, Brett Hull told him on the bench "This is Detroit, we don't dump the puck!" Basically, saying if you dump the puck in and give it away like that you are getting it yourself! It DRIVES ME CRAZY how often teams do that today.
This is exactly why I love watching roller hockey. The best teams take very good care of possession and hardly EVER give up the puck. It’s worth checking out if you’ve never watched a game.
This reminds me of the first playoff game I remember involving the NY Rangers. April 1967, Montreal Forum. Gane 1 of the semifinals (Original Six). Rangers are leading 4-1 after two. Habs erupt for five goals in a 13-minute span, win 6-4 and sweep the Rangers four straight. They did this consistently for the next few years, and it finally came to a head for me on January 17, 1971 when they blew a 3-0 lead at Chicago Stadium on national TV (CBS) and lost 4-3. That was the last straw for me as a Ranger fan and this 8th grader became a Buffalo Sabres fan the next day, and I still am 54 years later. Never regretted the decision.
its one of the hardest things to watch in hockey, a team you want to win just give the puck up over and over again with a 1 goal leadike theres 5 seconds left even tho theres 10 mins left
Totally agree with you, Shannon... I've seen this so many times, the players just play the ring around the boards in the hope it gets to a teammate (often it doesn't) and then they have to try to get it from the other team.
I get what you’re saying but it’s strategic. If you continue to play your high pace offensive game you run the risk of odd man rushes against, or simple rush chances against which are where most goals are scored. If you sit back and let them come at you you’re always back, and if you’re a good d team you’re in position and it’s tough for the opposing team to score. If you’re a bad d team then it doesn’t really work like it’s supposed to.
This has been a pet peeve of mine forever! I fully understand that "Lobing it Out" along with "Dump & Chase" are necessary sometimes but it certainly makes for some uninteresting hockey. The only positive about watching long stretches of these two concepts being employed is that they cure my insomnia problem every time.
I've always said its the equivalent of an NFL team getting up a couple touchdowns, then every time they get possession back they punt it back on first down and try and play defense the rest of the game. The best defense is offense!!
My guess is it works since like every team in the league does it. This concept is a hotbed for negativity bias. You're not going to remember every time your team held a hold-able lead to win, you're going to remember the goals that put you ahead. But you ARE going to remember the goals against or god forbid a thrown lead. And it's so much harder to score goals than it is to not score goals that I'm very much biased to the idea that a defensive approach is probably better. I do think it's probably done more than it should! a 2 goal lead is not the worst lead in hockey, you just have anxiety. No the other team cannot score a goal if you are on offense, but they can create a chance if the puck is poked 10 feet behind you before you realize what has happened.
@THG I hope you noticed how the Red Wings held the lead against the Jets on 1/4 as a good example of how you can play safe but also keep pushing some offense.
Agreed I guess the thought is to keep the shifts short and roll 4 lines while the other team may roll any two with an occasional third line. Wear them out. At least dump it in and forecheck.
I completely agree with you, best defense is to just cycle the puck in the opposition end of the ice and make them chase you around. That goes true for every other sports. If my team is up, I will never let up, and my teammates use to say like just relax we are up by 5 and I said, we won't be up by 5 if they get another point and get some life, and soon we will only be up by 3 or less.
Buffalo iced the puck like 10 times in the last minute of regulation last night. So instead of 60 seconds the final minute took like 5 minutes. Avs too good to give them all that time to regroup and rest
Yup you are absolutely right Shannon, the lob that leads to an unnecessary icing call (or when a pass is way too forced to a player and the pass turns becomes an icing) is so infuriating and when a team plays that way it is terrible defense I believe.
I think it’s because there’s so many change of possessions that they just don’t care. Some teams leave one guy behind their own net with the puck and swap the other 4.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of the puck like that either. I think Ray Ferraro was quoted in saying somewhere "if you got a goal, get another one. If you have the lead, keep scoring" or something like that. If my team has the puck, we're taking it up the ice and scoring as many goals as humanly possible. Definitely not giving it away if we have a lead.
One thing that drives me crazy is that the streaming services I use are such low bitrate and resolution that the puck often vanishes during a pass or shot. It's still better than paying good money to watch some hockey some of the time.
Couldn't agree more, It's incredibly frustrating to watch. It's more understandable(yet frustrating as well) in soccer where the field is massive so going forward is more risky since running back home can be exhausting and it's just in general harder to get back.
I watch Chelsea and the premier league a lot as well as hockey. But this happens so often in football too. When a team scores a goal they don't go for the kill out of some "respect opposition" bullshit
i agree 100%. the most preventable mistake i see consistently in a game is that and the dump and chase (where the guy furthest up the ice dumps it and has 1 person max supporting a chase against 5 people and the goalie). you dump with 3 hitting the line your chances are good, with 4 they're great. so why not curl back and try again?
I totally agree with you Shannon. I’d like to point out an example of a game plan being taught incorrectly for decades just becoming the normal way we do things… in the nba a normal 2 point field goal % would be approximately 50%, and a normal 3 point % would be approximately 40%. It took coaches 30 years to figure out if the team simply took more 3 point shots they would end up with more points than usual by the end of the game. The math was right in front of them the whole time but for 3 decades the coaches just copied what the coaches of the other teams were doing and passed it off as fact that taking 2 point shots must be a good strategy. In modern basketball people take far more 3 point shots and end up with much higher scores. My point being, just because something becomes the status quo strategy, doesn’t make it the correct strategy. (If you take 100 2 point shots and 50% of them go in your final score is 100 points, if you take 100 3 point shots and 40% go in your final score is 120 points).
They do this on normal line changes, instead of retaining the puck by passing back to defense and completing the line change, they dump it in and the fresh players are immediately on defense.
So much this. When I played youth sports, he it hockey or soccer, our coaches taught us that if you want to grind the game down late is to play keep away. Obviously, scoring more goals is even better, but pressing the attack can leave you more vulnerable on the back to the counterattack, but if you can play a bit of keep away, keep possession, keep the clock going, and maybe open up a window for an attack, that always seems far more effective than giving the other team possession
As a Devils fan, I don’t see this team do that much with a lead. There’s usually one sacrificial guy that brings the puck in deep to try and play keep away as much as he can while the new line comes out. However, what drove me crazy in that 10 year span they were terrible, is they would dump and not chase.. dump, turnover and defend the rush, over and over
I agree 100% it drives me crazy when teams lay back. it seems to be built into the culture. when I hear commentators talking about how it would be disrespectful to Ice the First PP unit when they are up 5-0, it drives me up the wall, and you have to play hard at all times. I think it might be beneficial to put more of an emphasis on +- like the IIHF to encourage teams to play for the full game.
Red Wings played this brand of turtle hockey under coach lalonde. They just fired Lalonde and hired the Toddfather, who focuses on offense, and now they are on a 4 game win streak against the best teams in the league.
This has started to happen in Soccer as well. Different sport but so often a team that was dominating will start to defend and give the ball away to the other team and then that team comes back and wins. It’s so annoying to start seeing in hockey now as well
UNLV (ACHA team) had a 5-1 lead over Denver (defending NCAA champion, ranked #5 in the pairwise and sixth in their conference) in a collegiate exhibition game last weekend and the game still went to a shootout.
Good call out. There is an expression that goes like ‘dance with one who brought you’, and it has always astounded me that the play that got you a lead needs to be altered once you have a lead. I think it’s the coaches, not the players.
Yes. Drives me nuts. Warsofsky knows more than I do but I prefer when they keep the foot on the gas. They’ve started to see some 3rd period comebacks when other teams sit on their hands so I don’t know why they still do it as well.
This is how i feel the NY Islanders play with a lead. They seam to play to count down the clock. When they should just try to attack and keep trying to score more. It is so frustrating to watch.
I would love to see a change in gameplay like playing with two forwards and three defenders when you take a two goal lead in big games. Don't change the style, but change the positions
I think this is the same thing Chariot was doing with the wings that would annoy me. They would finally gain the zone and start setting it up and he would just fling it at the goaltender when there is no one there to block is view, basically just giving the other team the puck. Or they would gain the zone and then the wings would start doing a change, and instead of coming out into neutral ice or trying to tie the puck up in the corner he would just fling it either at the net or to the corner where the opposing team had people. IDK maybe I'm wrong, but given how difficult it has been for the wings to gain the zone, it drives me nuts to consistently see Chariot not try at all to keep the puck. He has been better with the new coach though. The weird part about it is Chariot is a guy that is pretty good at battling for the puck.
since playing in beer league i have not seen one puck dumped and chased (unless it’s the hardo teams). we worked so damn hard to get the puck back and we sure as hell ain’t guna just fire it right back to them. holding leads is easier when you just regroup and catch your breath
teams view it as: it's more risky to have possession of the puck in our own zone than it is for the other team to have possession in their zone. puck possession is not as sure of a thing as it used to be, sure guy's hands have gotten better, but so have the poke checks/forechecking, and more importantly their speed. they are just playing the percentages like always shannon
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It’s serious when there is no board
if this is an old man rant, then we are all old men.
Yep…new trends in the game…just like taking your shot at the empty net and giving up the icing! The team probably has stats that you don’t. It’s not the same as comparing to prevent defense in football…hockey doesn’t have set plays!
This is especially true this season for the Sharks where their defense is questionable and their best puck moving dman is on IR. When playing a top tier team your best hope is to bend, not break. The Sharks have broken a lot of times in the 3rd…l’ll go with the coach over some Hockey Guy.
Time to evolve with the game old men!
@@sibeguy I mean in the NBA they had stats telling them getting 3 pointers was better than getting 2 pointers and now people dislike it a lot more then they used to because of it. Stats say one thing but people don't have to enjoy or like it, unless their team wins a lot that way, and then they will hate it if it seems to make them lose a lot. In the end its as usual, nobody is right and we can't have anything nice.
It's the difference between playing to win and playing to not lose.
30 seconds in and Shannon is as sick of canucks hockey as the rest of us.
And Dallas Stars hockey
The buffalo sabres against the Avs last night…
I came here to say this!
Second time this season!
@@bobantoniuk3953 I wish it was only in these two games. Sabres doing this all season. Score few goals in first period and then they are scared to cross ofensive blue line. They lost so many points thanks to this
Last night? HA! More like all season.
damn, stole my comment lol
One time when the Blackhawks fired their coach midseason, the newspaper headline said that he was dumped and chased.
This is the reason why I loved the Russian Five when they played in Detroit. Even in the documentary of the same name, they said they played with the mentality of not giving up the puck. Stevie Y needs to have our current team sit and watch that film regularly, they could learn something from it.
YOU'RE SO RIGHT oh my god I'm gonna shout to the heavens. Somehow "play it safe" means willingly turning the puck over to the other team.
This has been bugging me too. I thought we got past the dump and chase era.. yet here we are. It's returned.
It's been like this forever. I've lamented over this since the 80's. So frustrating
Thanks for the video! A-B-C = Always Be Controlling (the puck!)
You mentioned wanting to talk about this after last night's review. I've been patiently waiting for this lol
The teams who I don't see dumping the puck, sitting back on the lead -teams like Vegas, Tampa, and Avalanche, are the teams who are ALWAYS contending for the cup.
The 2022 Avalanche are the best example of doing the opposite, using their speed to constantly push forward and forecheck the other team.
As an Oilers fan, I couldn't agree more.
They have a long history of blowing leads (eg. 5-0 lead in the playoffs evaporating = exasperating).
No lead is safe until just before the final whistle.
Sweet - THG meets Peter Griffin's "Grinds my gears". Needed this!!!
Agreed. The Buf vs Col game had me up in arms Buf kept giving the puck away. Particularly annoyed me since the last time Buf faced Col, Col had an epic comeback.
I think part of the reason a lot of teams end up lazily lobbing the puck out is because they are losing the energy management battle of the game. Teams do this even when they don’t have a big lead, but it’s much more noticeable when a team blows a lead because of this strategy. The intent of this tactic isn’t to just give up the puck, the tactic is really to lower the energy expenditure.
An often-overlooked aspect of hockey is energy management. Playing conservatively with a lead helps reduce the risk of turnovers and minimizes high-stakes situations that could reignite the opponent’s momentum. It’s not about 'giving up' the puck but rather about maintaining structural discipline and ensuring players are in optimal positions defensively to protect their lead. On a macro level, this strategy is essential over the span of a season. Hockey is a physically demanding sport, and managing energy efficiently across the season is critical to reducing injuries and maintaining peak performance for the playoffs. Pressing more aggressively even with a comfortable lead is certainly more exciting to watch, but it increases the risk of mistakes, and wear-and-tear injuries. I think it’s easy to call it a passive approach, but really, it’s a calculated and effective strategy for closing out games. It’s why playoff hockey is so much more intense, the balance between performance and energy management changes - teams can empty the reserve tanks, so to speak.
There’s too many games in all the sports but they’ll never take less games. $$$$$
“A 2 goal lead is the worst lead to have” - my high school coach. I feel like it applies here. Teams get too comfortable, they start dumping, and bam comeback.
Completely agree. Best defense is puck control 200 feet from your own goal.
Truer words have never been spoken. There is almost ZERO percent chance of you giving up a lead if that particular item is on yours or a teammates hockey stick, particularly if you're nearly 200 feet from your own goal line. The SAFEST thing you could ever do to 'protect' the lead, is safeguard that particular disc shaped thing and hold onto it as if it's crucial for the other team to make a comeback against you. Thanks for this one, Shannon! (I also hope this provided some catharsis from that recent Vancouver/Seattle game...or both of them? Because they could each effectively illustrate your point)
This video feels like a middle school P.E. teacher scolding the class for lazy effort
I agree completely. I've never understood giving up the puck. Other things that drive me crazy. The drop pass on the power play and then immediately dump it in is insanity. Six foot six inch goalies spending the entire game on their knees and making themselves three feet tall and getting beat upstairs five times. The defenceman that throws his body on the ice on a two on one and takes himself completely out of the play.
I remember when a 2 goal lead was the worst lead in hockey. Back then I would tie an onion to my belt, which was the style at the times.
Shanon still reeling from that 5-4 vancouver loss to Seattle one week later 🤣
Yep, it can drive you up the wall, and this was something that drove my Grandfather nuts, he used to say, "You do all that work to get the puck and just throw it away?"
Facts. Most frustrating part. When the teams start that I turn it off
Shout out to Drew Remenda for harping on this during the sharks game
The football comparison is exactly what came to mind for me.
You poor poor bears fan... I'm so sorry
@@jacobeberhardt1649go pack go
@@jacobeberhardt1649 Right now for me, Bears, Blackhawks, AND White Sox 🤮😩
@fredleinweber2819 You just can't be watching sports right now 🤣🤣
28-3, anyone?
It's like a football team punting on first down because they don't want to risk turning the ball over.
Fun Canadian Football League fact: there’s actually 4 downs but the coaches are so conservative they punt on 3rd down.
Love this. Drives me crazy too. You do well, you get a good lead. And then you just start dumping and clearing the puck instead of playing still
The NHL season is a long rough one. Playing an aggressive all out 200 ft game uses more energy than the pure defense dump it out 130 ft game. Or at least it could be perceived that way. So, with a big lead I suspect players fall into the dump it out mode to hopefully save more energy for the next game. Plus, there’s the whole ‘don’t let the other team getting any odd man rushes’ aspect.
When my team takes a 2 or 3 goal lead and then goes into a defensive shell, blowing the lead and lucky to get a point, drives me crazy. Like.......back out of the garage and I am there.
As Johan Cruyff said: offence is the best defense
I thought it was Mel, the cook on Alice.
I agree with you on teams changing their game in the 3rd period to protect a lead. To be fair, teams have won Cups playing that way for an entire game. They called it The Trap. The only major difference is that the team playing that system would be waiting for the other team to make a mistake and they'd pounce and score on them. But they'd keep that system going for the entire game. The other difference, obviously, was that we didn't have obstruction penalties back then, so you could hook and hold like crazy and that obviously helped with The Trap. You could have a big defence that couldn't skate. I honestly don't know how a late 90s Scott Stevens or early 2000s Derian Hatcher would fair in today's game because they were big, physical guys, but weren't known for their skating. You can't just stand still, throw a hit or let a guy fly by you and expect to hold them up just enough without pulling them down and not get a penalty. In the old days, sitting back in the 3rd period might have worked. You can't do that anymore, because eventually you'll start taking penalties if you're not moving your feet. You can play a modified trap system, but you still have to press and move your feet. I just think it's a matter of some coaches being slow to adapt to the changing game. It's not easy to only play defence in today's game. I don't know how the 1995 or 2001 Devils would fair in today's game. They relied a lot on being able to hold guys up just enough and then running them into the boards.
The whole point of the phrase "The best offense is a good defense" is that when your defense plays well, you don't need them as much. The less your defense are playing the more your offense is playing and getting scoring chances. When you are running the offense, the other team is far, far , far less likely to score and it's crazy how may teams play completely opposite to this.
I agree somewhat, but I think there is some calculated risk avoidance involved. Plain and simple, you can't change while on defense, especially if you can't exit your zone. If you create a turnover, you may still be in a somewhat risky zone quickly, and you are almost guaranteed to be less fresh as the opposition, along with your teammates, as you just finished being on the defensive.
If you compare to football, lobbing the puck out of the zone gives your guys a breather you likely need more than the opposition, and forces the other team to enter the zone again, both much stronger factors than in football. It's also not left as an option for players in order to simplify the micromanaging from players on the ice... You don't really want them calculating whether they have enough wind to chance a fluke takeaway and be forced to cover another tiring defensive stint, for you and all your other potentially tired teammates. The chances aren't generally in your favor, you probably have a better chance to be picked and forced to defend while tired than actually entering the offensive zone against an opposing line that is still fresher than you.
CBA states that the team in a commanding lead must surrender the control of the game to the opponent to make the games more exciting and boost the ratings. Gary was adamant about that.
This is probably it right here
The fellow who organized our pick-up sessions at the local rink questioned the dump and chase strategy. He told me that if I gain the blue line and I’m by myself surrounded by opposing players, just control the puck and force the opposition to take it away until teammates arrive.
Can’t have that same mentality when a 6’5 230lb defender is lining u up to take ur soul
I have been yelling at my TV as the Capitals have been doing this for a while. Dump and chase does not does not work when you dump and don't chase
Protas and Dubois are two of the best in the league at playing dump and chase. But yeah, sometimes Washington gets away from chasing.
It sounds like Leonard is going to be one of the best at the dump and chase, so I'm excited about him.
The ol' dump and shrug.
Agreed. I'm no coach, but in the age of advanced analytics and experience, it's interesting how much of the simple basics of the game are overlooked. I feel like this is relevant with a lot of things in life.
I figured that switch ups teams do with the lead is them saving energy because 82 games at full intensity seems impossible.
I heard former defenseman Jamie Rivers tell a story on a podcast one time about when he went to the Red Wings in 03-04. Team was stacked with Brett Hull, Yzerman etc. He was used to simply dumping the puck in and giving it away when he was with the Blues and other teams. After he did that his first time in Detroit, Brett Hull told him on the bench "This is Detroit, we don't dump the puck!" Basically, saying if you dump the puck in and give it away like that you are getting it yourself! It DRIVES ME CRAZY how often teams do that today.
This is exactly why I love watching roller hockey. The best teams take very good care of possession and hardly EVER give up the puck. It’s worth checking out if you’ve never watched a game.
This reminds me of the first playoff game I remember involving the NY Rangers. April 1967, Montreal Forum. Gane 1 of the semifinals (Original Six). Rangers are leading 4-1 after two. Habs erupt for five goals in a 13-minute span, win 6-4 and sweep the Rangers four straight. They did this consistently for the next few years, and it finally came to a head for me on January 17, 1971 when they blew a 3-0 lead at Chicago Stadium on national TV (CBS) and lost 4-3. That was the last straw for me as a Ranger fan and this 8th grader became a Buffalo Sabres fan the next day, and I still am 54 years later. Never regretted the decision.
Did they blow leads because of poor strategy? Or because they just weren't very good in that era?
Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Death sentence in any sport - just like how you mentioned prevent defense in football.
its one of the hardest things to watch in hockey, a team you want to win just give the puck up over and over again with a 1 goal leadike theres 5 seconds left even tho theres 10 mins left
I'm relatively new to hockey (2nd full season), and I was wondering this very thing. Thanks for crystallizing it.
Totally agree with you, Shannon... I've seen this so many times, the players just play the ring around the boards in the hope it gets to a teammate (often it doesn't) and then they have to try to get it from the other team.
I have noticed that last year. Glad you brought it up, I could not explain why. Thank you.
I get what you’re saying but it’s strategic. If you continue to play your high pace offensive game you run the risk of odd man rushes against, or simple rush chances against which are where most goals are scored. If you sit back and let them come at you you’re always back, and if you’re a good d team you’re in position and it’s tough for the opposing team to score. If you’re a bad d team then it doesn’t really work like it’s supposed to.
This has been driving me nuts for years.
This has been a pet peeve of mine forever! I fully understand that "Lobing it Out" along with "Dump & Chase" are necessary sometimes but it certainly makes for some uninteresting hockey. The only positive about watching long stretches of these two concepts being employed is that they cure my insomnia problem every time.
I believe the Madden quote was “the only thing that prevent defense prevents is punts”.
I agree. Was talking about this a couple of nights ago, drives me nuts
I've always said its the equivalent of an NFL team getting up a couple touchdowns, then every time they get possession back they punt it back on first down and try and play defense the rest of the game.
The best defense is offense!!
I used to have one of those pucks.
Giving away puck possession rant. Correct too. Drives ne crazy as well.
My guess is it works since like every team in the league does it. This concept is a hotbed for negativity bias. You're not going to remember every time your team held a hold-able lead to win, you're going to remember the goals that put you ahead. But you ARE going to remember the goals against or god forbid a thrown lead. And it's so much harder to score goals than it is to not score goals that I'm very much biased to the idea that a defensive approach is probably better. I do think it's probably done more than it should!
a 2 goal lead is not the worst lead in hockey, you just have anxiety. No the other team cannot score a goal if you are on offense, but they can create a chance if the puck is poked 10 feet behind you before you realize what has happened.
💯 agreed. Drives me crazy!!
I’ve never actually payed much attention to that but you got a good point!
@THG I hope you noticed how the Red Wings held the lead against the Jets on 1/4 as a good example of how you can play safe but also keep pushing some offense.
I hate when teams play "not to lose" rather than playing to win,
This is how the Penguins have blown so many leads over the past couple of seasons. It’s incredibly frustrating.
As a VGK fan with 15 come from behind wins this year, we thrive and look forward to teams becoming complacent with a lead!!! 🎉
Same with the MN Wild. I feel like when we go get behind, it's no big deal.
@@nicholausjamesjay83 you mean Mild ?
@@wild_insomnia Winnisota?
"The dreaded three goal lead" is a thing.
I notice the same thing and it drives me nuts as well. Puck possession is everything.
Agreed I guess the thought is to keep the shifts short and roll 4 lines while the other team may roll any two with an occasional third line. Wear them out. At least dump it in and forecheck.
I completely agree with you, best defense is to just cycle the puck in the opposition end of the ice and make them chase you around.
That goes true for every other sports. If my team is up, I will never let up, and my teammates use to say like just relax we are up by 5 and I said, we won't be up by 5 if they get another point and get some life, and soon we will only be up by 3 or less.
The Flyers this season really come to mind here! 😂 Drives me insane!
I almost think that's why some teams like and do well from playing from behind.
That is the worst play in beer league, the dump and chase. We are too old and slow to chase it down. Drives me nuts when teammates just dump it in.
Buffalo iced the puck like 10 times in the last minute of regulation last night. So instead of 60 seconds the final minute took like 5 minutes. Avs too good to give them all that time to regroup and rest
Yup you are absolutely right Shannon, the lob that leads to an unnecessary icing call (or when a pass is way too forced to a player and the pass turns becomes an icing) is so infuriating and when a team plays that way it is terrible defense I believe.
I think it’s because there’s so many change of possessions that they just don’t care. Some teams leave one guy behind their own net with the puck and swap the other 4.
I've never been a fan of getting rid of the puck like that either. I think Ray Ferraro was quoted in saying somewhere "if you got a goal, get another one. If you have the lead, keep scoring" or something like that. If my team has the puck, we're taking it up the ice and scoring as many goals as humanly possible. Definitely not giving it away if we have a lead.
The wild are notorious for taking their foot off the gas and losing the game.
You are completely right about this.
One thing that drives me crazy is that the streaming services I use are such low bitrate and resolution that the puck often vanishes during a pass or shot. It's still better than paying good money to watch some hockey some of the time.
Couldn't agree more, It's incredibly frustrating to watch. It's more understandable(yet frustrating as well) in soccer where the field is massive so going forward is more risky since running back home can be exhausting and it's just in general harder to get back.
I watch Chelsea and the premier league a lot as well as hockey. But this happens so often in football too. When a team scores a goal they don't go for the kill out of some "respect opposition" bullshit
i agree 100%. the most preventable mistake i see consistently in a game is that and the dump and chase (where the guy furthest up the ice dumps it and has 1 person max supporting a chase against 5 people and the goalie). you dump with 3 hitting the line your chances are good, with 4 they're great. so why not curl back and try again?
I totally agree with you Shannon. I’d like to point out an example of a game plan being taught incorrectly for decades just becoming the normal way we do things… in the nba a normal 2 point field goal % would be approximately 50%, and a normal 3 point % would be approximately 40%. It took coaches 30 years to figure out if the team simply took more 3 point shots they would end up with more points than usual by the end of the game. The math was right in front of them the whole time but for 3 decades the coaches just copied what the coaches of the other teams were doing and passed it off as fact that taking 2 point shots must be a good strategy. In modern basketball people take far more 3 point shots and end up with much higher scores. My point being, just because something becomes the status quo strategy, doesn’t make it the correct strategy. (If you take 100 2 point shots and 50% of them go in your final score is 100 points, if you take 100 3 point shots and 40% go in your final score is 120 points).
They do this on normal line changes, instead of retaining the puck by passing back to defense and completing the line change, they dump it in and the fresh players are immediately on defense.
So much this. When I played youth sports, he it hockey or soccer, our coaches taught us that if you want to grind the game down late is to play keep away. Obviously, scoring more goals is even better, but pressing the attack can leave you more vulnerable on the back to the counterattack, but if you can play a bit of keep away, keep possession, keep the clock going, and maybe open up a window for an attack, that always seems far more effective than giving the other team possession
Blue Jackets hockey all last year. No lead was too big for Pascal to blow.
As a Devils fan, I don’t see this team do that much with a lead. There’s usually one sacrificial guy that brings the puck in deep to try and play keep away as much as he can while the new line comes out. However, what drove me crazy in that 10 year span they were terrible, is they would dump and not chase.. dump, turnover and defend the rush, over and over
I agree 100% it drives me crazy when teams lay back. it seems to be built into the culture. when I hear commentators talking about how it would be disrespectful to Ice the First PP unit when they are up 5-0, it drives me up the wall, and you have to play hard at all times. I think it might be beneficial to put more of an emphasis on +- like the IIHF to encourage teams to play for the full game.
Red Wings played this brand of turtle hockey under coach lalonde.
They just fired Lalonde and hired the Toddfather, who focuses on offense, and now they are on a 4 game win streak against the best teams in the league.
This has started to happen in Soccer as well. Different sport but so often a team that was dominating will start to defend and give the ball away to the other team and then that team comes back and wins. It’s so annoying to start seeing in hockey now as well
UNLV (ACHA team) had a 5-1 lead over Denver (defending NCAA champion, ranked #5 in the pairwise and sixth in their conference) in a collegiate exhibition game last weekend and the game still went to a shootout.
Good call out. There is an expression that goes like ‘dance with one who brought you’, and it has always astounded me that the play that got you a lead needs to be altered once you have a lead. I think it’s the coaches, not the players.
Yes. Drives me nuts. Warsofsky knows more than I do but I prefer when they keep the foot on the gas. They’ve started to see some 3rd period comebacks when other teams sit on their hands so I don’t know why they still do it as well.
This is how i feel the NY Islanders play with a lead. They seam to play to count down the clock. When they should just try to attack and keep trying to score more. It is so frustrating to watch.
Another thing that drives me crazy is "lets just tie up the puck along the boards". I seem to remember when that was wistled down.
I would love to see a change in gameplay like playing with two forwards and three defenders when you take a two goal lead in big games. Don't change the style, but change the positions
When you get the lead you should keep playing offense. You just stop taking chances as much. Stop pinching in with D, etc
I think this is the same thing Chariot was doing with the wings that would annoy me. They would finally gain the zone and start setting it up and he would just fling it at the goaltender when there is no one there to block is view, basically just giving the other team the puck. Or they would gain the zone and then the wings would start doing a change, and instead of coming out into neutral ice or trying to tie the puck up in the corner he would just fling it either at the net or to the corner where the opposing team had people. IDK maybe I'm wrong, but given how difficult it has been for the wings to gain the zone, it drives me nuts to consistently see Chariot not try at all to keep the puck. He has been better with the new coach though. The weird part about it is Chariot is a guy that is pretty good at battling for the puck.
since playing in beer league i have not seen one puck dumped and chased (unless it’s the hardo teams). we worked so damn hard to get the puck back and we sure as hell ain’t guna just fire it right back to them. holding leads is easier when you just regroup and catch your breath
teams view it as: it's more risky to have possession of the puck in our own zone than it is for the other team to have possession in their zone. puck possession is not as sure of a thing as it used to be, sure guy's hands have gotten better, but so have the poke checks/forechecking, and more importantly their speed. they are just playing the percentages like always shannon
LOL, I was JUST about to type that it's just like the prevent defense in football.