Destiny 2 Lore - What we stole from Rhulk, which we then had to Nuke.. The Mystery of Gouging Light!
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- Опубликовано: 5 янв 2025
- Destiny 2's Lore and story tells us of the relics we recovered from Rhulk's pyramid ship in the Vow of the Disciple Raid. One of these relics held within container 6010 was breached and had to be nuked. This is the mystery of gouging Light, the raid sparrow!
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Your Rhulk theory makes even more sense in the context of how the Darkness works. Our Ghosts *give* us rezzes, so it makes sense that in order for a true servant of Dark to rez, they would need to Take.
Rhulk: *"Hippity Hoppety your body is now my property."*
Counterpoint : But what of the first rez that turned us into guardians ? We still lost all memory of our old live, which in turn could be called taking and remake us in order to better serve , well , the traveller/light.
@@thandokhan1962 maybe our memories were never there to salvage?
@@thandokhan1962 light and dark function differently here though, light makes you forget and darkness is based on memory or the past
@@thandokhan1962 I feel like Light serves as new beginnings for people, a way to bring good to the world where there was Dark before. Darkness makes you remember the past, and sometimes very painful and horrible past like with Crow. Opposite concepts of opposite alignments in terms of what they do and how they relate to the people who use them. It brings up the idea, what kind of people were we before the Collapse? Does the Light just resurrect evil people in the hopes they'll be good in the next life?
I love the lore on “man literally too lazy to fight immortal beings of light”
We r not immortal lol look at cayde dude fucken died
My first thought was that the "what was left of Marco" referred to his mental state rather than a transformation of his body.
My guess is that this is what the Witness used to reconstruct Rhulk after he was broken at the bottom of the abyss and granted him the physical power he had.
I wonder. Was that the same Marco Cayde spoke about in his death caches and the one on the stompees lore?
I haven't seen many talk of the "Luster" Rhulk mentions in his backstory. I thought this might be what we end up calling the new darkness power but maybe it's this?
@@howtoforidiots408 No. Cayde spoke of Marcus, not marco.
Both of these were my thoughts as well. Marco crashed and was about to bleed out on the sands of Mars. When you're that shaken up, there isn't much left of you.
I'd thought that someone confirmed that the roots coming out of Rhulk were healing him, but I could be wrong. Either way, darkness "remembers" previous states, which means that a darkness infusion should be resetting Marco back to health anyways.
@@howtoforidiots408 nope. thats marcus ren, a completely different person.
So my thought: Its the Disciples/Minions of the Witness' equivalent to our ghosts. It's a manifestation of their power that, instead of us being rezzed from almost nothing, infects and takes over a host, using it as a puppet until whomever the host was is completely gone and replaced. The only reason it didn't try to do that to us in the raid after defeating the Caretaker and Rhulk is because it knew we were too powerful for it to infect, so it goes after easier more unsuspecting targets, like Marco
If this is true then someone at bungie has been watching/reading Boruto
I think this is definitely part of it.
To expand on this idea, I think it's a manifestation of Anthem Anathema, of which the Sword Logic is but one expression. The core principle of Sword Logic is to carve a memory of yourself so deep into the substrate of reality that you CAN'T BE FORGOTTEN; instead, you become synonymous with an ensuring concept that can be summoned - like Exploration, or Cunning, or War.
For the Hive, this took the form of the Throne Worlds. For Rhulk, however, the substance of his "idea" takes the form of viral/memetic roots that will overwrite a being that is too weak to hold its own. In this way, the idea of Rhulk persists and can recreate itself.
This is what the Truth To Power texts were about; Savathûn was trying to instill the Idea of herself so it might infect others.
And it is why, in previous universes, the Vex won the Flower Game so handily.
I believe it is a machine of sorts, and organic device. Like SIVA.
@@1974Teebone SIVA is not organic. It just looked that way.
@@1974Teebone 12:04
Honestly the rhulk theory makes sense because the caretaker is a giant scorn, so in comparison to someone like rhulk, the memory of his existence and his potency is going to be significantly smaller than Rhulk himself, whose “root system” is SIGNIFICANTLY larger than the caretaker’s.
11:58 I don't think it was nuked from orbit, its implied that the casing to the nuclear reactor on the sparrow was damaged, and that"s what Marco shot, causing a nuclear explosion.
I think "Nuked from orbit" is more of a turn of phrase. Byf mentions at the end that it was Marco who blew it up.
@@Shadoefeenicks Yeah a lot of times people say nuked from orbit to mean absolutely destroyed and decimated. it's just an unfortunate phrase to use when the sparrow literally had a small nuclear explosion from its core too
on that subject, is the reactor in a sparrow really that volatile. A nuclear reactor nowadays cannot "explode" the same way a Nuclear Bomb does. Nuclear bombs reach a point of criticality so high, that they violently blow themselves apart, while even nuclear reactors just produce large amounts of energy, but not in an explosive form. The reason Fukushima and Chernobyl exploded was because of the water turning into steam as it reached the incredibly hot core. This change to steam was so violent, and with so much energy, that it also was blown away. Does that mean the material for the shielding is so strong that it cannot just withstand a direct nuclear blast, but stay both cool enough to not melt, and at the same time, stay structurally sound as it withstands the blast of a nuclear bomb, even when nearly destroyed. Wow, Dark age engineering is impressive.
@@barstool9156 I'd imagine making something that small would come with some amount of risk. Buuuuuuuuut, when our sparrows go off in game it is definitely not nuclear. Let's just call it some creative liberties.
Nuclear reactors do not cause a nuclear explosion, they don't work the same way as a nuke, they work way too differently in the worse case they would just melt down into radioactive lava if there is not water vapor that could increase the pressure and explode like happened in Chernobyl
Just my little head canon: the black veins are the witness’s gift to its disciples. It’s how it makes a disciple, and once a disciple has been made, the veins take an original personality similar to their host and are a means, like our ghosts, to defy death. We can clearly see the Witness is made of an amalgamation of many souls, personalities, memories, or something else (the gigantic white web of faces that constantly spews from its head). I think that the Witness, in its crusade to make the final shape, takes the strongest and most aligned warriors of a species (like we see with Rhulk) and uses the slaughter to fuel itself, taking the souls or essence of those slaughtered and dominating them. After domination, the collective essence is added to the billowing plume exuded from the Witness. When the Witness desires to make a disciple, it then extracts dominated essence that is suffused with its will and implants it within the potential disciple. We can guess this may have happened to rhulk in the abyss from his lore. The reason the Caretaker does not showcase a will or personality like Rhulk is because it is a scorn, a husk that appears personality-less (except for stronger variations like the Barons or Fikrul). I don’t know the specifics of the lore behind the abominations, so this is speculation. But I’d like to believe that the Witness’s appearance, specifically the billowing fog of faces has some connection to the roots we see from rhulk’s corpse.
that does give the witness and darkness simular to the hive's version of power. The hive use pure death, but the darkness and the witness use more like souls. The witness still requires death to gain power, but uses the death more cleanly than the hive.
I'd like to think that the final shape is a tree. The light has been very heavily alligned with the sky and the dark with the deep. I feel like these roots are the way a creature of the darkness can attempt to join the final shape post mortem. Either I missed it or I'm hyper focused on it but I feel tree symbolism is important to the idea of the final shape. If we are to beat the witness, it will be with the ideas of the light and the dark. Trees have both roots to reach into the deep, while still having leaves and branches to reach the light. My guess is the roots are connected to the winess's final shape as it is a thematic source of power to the deep.
@@huntergoshorn8015 Or maybe we (Guardians) are the tree, bcuz we use both light and darkness equally rooting us in both worlds.
My first thought was that the appearance of the witness was to do with time. They cloud that makes up his head all look to be the same face, so perhaps just one entity duplicated or existing along multiple timelines? Just the first darkness related ability that seemed to fit to me. Hopefully we'll find out.
The roots do seem to be a recurring visual motif in disciples. Recently there has been speculation that Nezerac is/was a disciple of the witness. If you look at the nightmares, you see reddish black veins or roots commonly around them, especially in their entrance, so it very well could be a manifestation of the Witness’s gift of power.
I think all this might be promising enough to being back up to Byf!
The idea of Rhulk trying to come back by taking over poor Marco made me realize an interesting difference between the Light and the Dark. When someone comes back through the Light, it's essentially a new person than before, just the same face. Sure, maybe there are some similarities, but this new being has no memory, and if I remember right, there have been several Guardians in lore tabs that have different names than in their first life.
When someone comes back with the Darkness, they keep everything. Savathun and Xivu Arath, killed in the Ascendant plane by Oryx and suffering True Deaths, were still brought back (assuming those details of the Book of Sorrows aren't embellished or anything lol). And this sparrow lore seems to support that idea of persistence after death, and preservation of the self. Kinda makes me start to wonder about the Ahamkara with how they can speak through their bones...
Anyone else think Venom or symbiote during this lore tab? Especially when it talked about the goo seeping into Marco and repairing his leg. Made me think of the motorcycle scene in the movie.
So here's something to add. The heart of darkness that is fought in the very first campaign in Destiny seems to be related to this stuff in the containers. A kind of primordial liquid if you will.
You're actually right! And also, It is brought as a mention In the raid as well (no mentions of any other extra destination like dreaming city or titán or Nessus) Just Black heart and Black Garden.
Now, if memory serves right, didnt the Heart infuse the statues that were there with Life? Reverting them to their Vex selves? That could be the power: It remembered What shape those Vex had and on command returned them to that state so they could fight
I thought of the black garden too after watching this. I have actually spent the last 4 hours going over lore. I come back to comment that Rhulk and The Caretaker's death reminds me of something from the Black Garden. And then I remembered that Savathun's throne world is covered in red flowers which look similar to those of the garden. Perhaps those flowers effect everything in her throne world, including the ship and things and brings on the ship? Idk, maybe far fetched? But it's like invasive species of plants, spreading roots so much, it's hard to get rid of. Like Savathun creating contingency plans, perhaps the Darkness has also made plans.
Big what if.
The black tendrils look like the roots of trees.
Trees are often used to portray the Light, like during Season of Arrivals with the big tree in Io, or the small trees of Light when we get our new supers in Forsaken.
Whay if the Darkness is the root system for a tree symbolizing Light?
I am feeling like the light and dark have their own interpretations of immortality.
The light preserves the body at the cost of eventual memory loss as in the form of the Exo's needing a reboot. I am sure the more "living" guardians probably are the same to some degree.
The dark preserves the memories and and just seeks out new bodies. Either through possession/mind control or the generation of a new body as with the Hive.
The hive's "hunger" is just a need to gather resources needed to create new bodies for the memories to inhabit.
This idea stems from the line when you go into one of the pyramids where your ghost says something along the lines of "It's ironic that the light took your memories and the dark is giving them back.".
Additionally I think the Hive shadows you fight all the time, the summoned weak things you kill all the time, are just shadows of memories of dead hive waiting for a body. Brought to life in a temporary body made of dark energy to claim the resources they need to be brought back to life.
Memories seeking bodies, and bodies seeking memories.
Man, that just goes to show how dangerous the places we go are. That stuff if the jar was probably some random goop we scraped off a wall and it was enough to completely take over a normal human.
Makes me think of mycelium and parasitic fungi like Cordyceps.
Zombie fungus is such an interesting parasite
Hey Byf,
I have a small idea I want to share with you: there has been a recurring motif of 'Trees' in Destiny since the start.
In D1, the main focus of the Vanilla campaign was the Black GARDEN and it's corrupted heart.
In D2, specifically Shadowkeep, we are introduced to the concepts of the GARDENER and the WINNOWER, as well as the SILVER SEED and the TREE OF SILVER WINGS. It should be noted that whenever our old enemies were brought back as nightmares in Shadowkeep, they manifested out of spectral ROOTS in the fabric of space.
Now, in the Witch Queen, killing servants of the Witness causes them to sprout the tangible ROOTS that you talked about.
Trees, Gardens and Roots are all recurring themes in many of the world's religions and mythologies. They are transformative beings able to convert what is base (SOIL) into a higher form (LEAVES, BARK, and FRUIT).
In Abrahamic religions, it is the FRUIT of the primordial TREE that grants the Sons and Daughters of Adam their insight of self, and 'free' will. In many other world religions, TREES and ROOTS symbolise both the interconnectedness of worlds and spirits, such as in the case of Norse mythology and some Kabbalistic and Gnostic sects respectively.
What I'm trying to get at is that Destiny's story is a story of the sprouting of seeds, their growth, and their aftermath.
When Osiris travelled to the edges of the Heliopause to find the Seed of Silver Wings, and subsequently planted it on Io, it laid the groundwork for our Guardians wielding the the natural forces governed by the 'Darkness'. We do not know where Osiris got the Seed from; only that the space around the Seed tried to keep it away from the world (a 'maw' in space; a pocket dimension isolated from current space). We saw the Seed feed from the Soil of Io that the Traveler rested on during it's journey, and sprout into a Tree capable of communicating with the Black Fleet.
Now we see that Rhulk and the Caretaker also produce Roots that search for 'ground' to claim. If both of them acted as Seeds in their death, then what was the Seed of Silver Wings? Why does even it's 'Bark', the Ruinous Effigy, feed on Light? If the 'Soil' is the 'Light', and the 'Seed' and 'Roots' are the 'Dark', then what of the 'Fruit' that is produced in time?
Time will tell hopefully, but I hope that you see this recurring theme as well.
Hearing about the black substance here reminds me of some of the lore from Cayde’s Journal during the collapse, and some of the black armoury lore. When the darkness invaded there were some images in the journal of formless, possibly liquid looking beings that were a part of the dark forces. I believe there is also some mention of them smelling like wet earth or something to that effect, and maybe that could be linked to the branch like veins that come out of Rhulk and the Caretaker.
I’m thinking along the lines of wet earth and branches being linked to nature. And then the enemies having a black liquid like look to them which could match the description made in the lore of this sparrow. Then to bring it all together the liquid like enemies being described as smelling like wet earth and that again has a link to nature.
I’m aware these are very loose connections being made and are very speculative, but this is what came to mind whilst watching the video.
To add some further speculation though, I was wondering if maybe this is how the darkness might create it’s dark armies perhaps. By changing beings into their minions through this fluid, altering their mind and eventually completely transforming them into their minions, devoid of any self control, completely hollowed out, without there own conscience and having their will controlled by another, similar the taken in that sense. Perhaps the darkness could have been doing this to civilians during the collapse maybe?
Once again, wild speculation but I thought it was a cool idea and theory to put forward. And also if anyone has read this entire chunky comment you’re legends and I appreciate you taking the time to give my thoughts a read :)
I was thinking something similar, as this made me think of the wet earth creature as well. Add to all this the weird vine/branch/root stuff on the Glykon and the Drifter's ship... there seams to be a theme...
This is the comment I was looking for. The substance resembling roots first made me think of the tree we grew in season of arrivals but also the black armory lore. They describe the presence as a earthen smell, roots do indeed grow down into the earth. We can’t smell destiny but I wonder if the darkness having deep as a running theme could also apply to underground metaphors like roots.
Thinking about It thats been done múltiple times with Darkness. "Dredgen Yor was cursed by a wizard and whispered corruptive words, a power of Darkness", Cryptoliths override the mind and reverts it to wrathful beasts, taken erodes the Will and makes the creatures subservient to their master, and unrelenting. And dark ether brings back the Eliksni as Scorn, wrathful Monsters of violent nature which while almost feral, follow the Darkness instructions.
Hell, even Rhulk explains the Witness is very keen in "complete and utter subjugation" i wouldnt be surprised if this was a thing
Also reminds me of the Drifter's story of the creatures that killed his fireteam of sketchy dudes in the outer system.
I know it's completely speculative but I love Byf because he notices everything and can draw connections to things meaningful or meaningless. New fans as I and people from day 1 sheer you on to 1 million. Let your light shine like a quasar guardian.
My best guess is that the Black Veins is basically a representation of "the Darkness", sort of like a manifestation of Darkness power. The Caretaker & Rhulk have this spill out when they die. If you were to imagine the Darkness as a spiritual possession, when Rhulk dies, the spirit possessing him begins to leak out into the world searching for another person to inhabit. Remember all the old lore tabs of Savathun when she still had her worm and was corrupted by Darkness? There was a few lore tabs where she had to choke down "black spindly fluid" when she was posing as Osiris. I think its all connected. So basically, the fluid is the Physical manifestation of Darkness. This is why it speaks about "the deep" and also the way it speaks. That's my theory. I don't believe it's memory of Rhulk or Caretaker, but the physical embodiment of the Darkness power itself. And no, not the witness. I'd say if we kill the witness, the same fluid would leak out of him too, because the darkness can not be killed, ie. Primordial fluid from before time began.
Also note how it kinda matches the "tendrils" in the solarsystem that are the only repressentation of what the darkness that caused the collapse was before we saw the black fleet. So these shadow tendrils being the embodiment of darkness like glowing white light is the embodiement of the light fits.
I had the same idea; the tendrils are the physical manifestation of the presence of the winnower
Entirely speculating here:
My take is that the substance in question inside container 6010 is the black fluid Rhulk uses in the shattered suns lore book to relive his past, mentioned at the end of page 10. Similar to the wall of fluid that the Witness walks out of in his reveal cinematic and then separates to show the pyramid fleet. Pyramid tech, metallic black modular matter powered by the psychic energy of memory (Darkness) is a different way to achieve the same outcome as SIVA, and potentially much more powerful and dangerous. Paracausal use of memory as both a fuel source and control scheme has a huge array of applications.
Something that strikes me upon hearing this lore reading; the Vex in how their consciousness transcends time and space, and how we've been told the power of the Witness is that to move realities (which the Vex also seem to do on a lesser scale with all their simulations etc). I personally think we got our first glimpse of a "pure" form of the Alkahest, that which Clovis found from Clarity Control and used to make the Exo combined with vex fluid. This root system seems like a liquid but also sentient, which to me yes Siva, but sounds WAY more like the Vex. I hope they start to flesh out the story we got with DSC and Beyond Light. Now would be the perfect time for us to get some context on how the darkness has been used in our past, given we're beginning to question the nature of the light and dark.
Witness doesn’t move realities, it moves worlds, as in planets.
@@nemokrad2650 between realities. we don’t have a whole lot of info on how the vex move in and out of their simulations to infest areas in such short time. just pointing out how similar those sound from a meta level. i misspoke saying the withess moves realities tho.
i dont really think the veins are alkahest, alkahest is specifically radiolaria that had been altered by stasis, stasis has different effects on everything alkahest was just what radiolaria became so it could be used in exo brains. alkahest isnt like, some pure concept that all things affected by stasis narrow down to, it was just what clovis used to simulate exo brain randomness without directly linking them to the vex network.
Siva isn't sentient, why do folks keep alluding to such incorrect ideas. Siva is a nanite construction program and Rasputin was in control of it when it killed the Iron Lords. It wasn't controlled by sentience at all, in fact lore tabs revealed that Rasputin set it loose on them because they invaded the Siva labs looking for the tech so they could rebuild. Rasputin itself was not trusting on beings carrying the signature of target 0 or whatever it designated the Traveller as, but it's signature was the same as the one Rasputin tried to fight off at the edge of the solar system when the collapse came. It considered these beings a threat and so Guardians were a threat to humanity because they had the and signature energy as both the Traveller and the entity.
Please don't confuse what Siva is with this stuff you see in the current DLC. The amount of shapes that are useful in this reality are finite, so you'll see overlap. Heck why are the ships pyramids?!? Ancient Egyptians built those structures on Earth and that was 3500 years before anyone ever saw that black pyramids. Shapes are a function of the physical world we reside in and due to physics across this universe they'll remain constant. So the structure is Siva will be similar to other things that have nothing to do with it.
You want to know what really looks similar to the symbols on the side of the upended? Check out that glaive in the back of Rhulks room, branched out into separate pieces.
During my first raid completion I thought the root like structure closely resembled the aesthetic from the Tree of Silver Wings. Seeing as the story of the gardener and winnower are closely intertwined with that of the Tree of Silver wings, it seems plausible to me
I have no comment particular to this video; I just want to say your stuff is great, Byf, and I enjoy the work you put into this channel.
Just a quick thought: the black branches that sprout remind me of the Cordyceps fungi. If you don’t know what that is, definitely look it up because the way Cordyceps takes over a hosts body is insane. This somehow ties back to the Glykon and Katabasis.
Is that the thing that literally just zombifys bugs and shit?
@@imakkoh1828 I think there's a couple of things in nature that can do that, but I'm no entomologist or something so I could be wrong. As a side note though; isn't it just fucking crazy that we have things in our real world that can do that? It sounds like straight-up science fiction but it's real. Nature be crazy sometimes.
@@shreknskrubgaming7248 dr fauci better not be getting ideas
I remember that one lore tab about the Darkness
The smell of wet earth
And now we have what looks like roots from a tree like you said Byf
This cultivation of worms, a caretaker and now roots? Is anybody else seeing a Garden kind of them here?
My take is this: Once the witness begins to indoctrinate someone he gives them a gift with this ooze stuff attached (ie ooze powered Rhulks glaive and inturn Rhulk) and the dark they go, the stronger/more ooze grows. When those things die they move to try to find a new host (similar to Venom from Spiderman). The thoughts marko has may have not been Rhulk but a more pro darkness voice that would have urged him to go deeper if he lived longer (kinda like how Venom urges his host to do certain actions. Maybe I'm comparing to Venom too much but that's just what I think.
Reminds me of the black bio weapon goo from Ridley Scott's Prometheus . It infects and changes whatever it touches. In fact the canisters it's describing look very similar to the black mutagenic goo canisters from Prometheus.
And some WQ redesign internal of Pyramid ship give a Engineer vibe too, even Savathun ship looks like Engineer's Juggernaut.
@@pooripae it's no secret that the devs are huge sci-fi fantasy nerds as well as anime fans as well. The eververse cosmetics and ornaments are a big giveaway
They definitely took inspiration from Ridley and H.R giger for the pyramids and stuff. But made it's different enough to make it unique
Honestly my first thoughts when I hear black veins snaking into Marco, I immediately think back to that classic piece of lore from the Taken King Collectors Edition, concerning Cayde-6's experiences during The Collapse being "restrained by a shadowy creature on a destroyed world", and that feeling of being "enveloped" by "tendrils of pain" by something "primordial"
I dont think its siva either but seeing as the witness pulled mars for study and that is where siva was developed it is an interesting concept it was a darkness construct but perfect since it was darkness. Clovis did spend a lotta time trying to fish out much he could from clarity.
What if the highest servants of The Witness use this as a way to escape death. Like the hive gods get throne worlds, wouldn’t people even higher on the food chain have something even better?
You must remember that Throne Worlds aren't intrinsically linked to the Darkness. It seems very unlike the Witness' ideology to allow failing servants to escape their doom as well. "If it cannot stand, let it fall."
Memory as a virus. We remember Rhulk, he won’t be truly dead until we forget him, deep sight will bring him back off our broken bodies.
I don’t think the darkness has an issue with avoiding death, I think it has an issue with preventing death. For the darkness to have an issue with eternal life then the light should have had an issue with the warlords who were enslaving people when the traveler first sent out ghosts. The thing is even if it’s servants are immortal they still bring around ridiculous amounts of death, meanwhile even though the warlords were awful they still preserved life. Thus they weren’t technically falling astray of the path. Remember some of the worst villains in this verse have been guardians. And guardians can use both light and dark because they preserve life by taking it.
It’s my belief that the darkness also doesn’t give immortality it simply offers a path to find it, this the roots. Those that follow the path can find a way towards immortality, such is the case with bray. So far many who have followed the darkness have found multiple ways towards immortality. Be it the expos, throne worlds, these “gouging light” roots. Each of these are a function of memory by the way, the problem with the ecosystem was that the memory would devolve as time went on. The throne worlds are essentially just external hard drives. A gaurdian can live without their ghost, destroy a throne world and that hive is gone for good from what we’ve seen. The traveler gives eternal life to those it sees as protecting life. The witness sees those who commit death and guides them towards a path where they can commit so much more.
I find it interesting how darkness is now associated with memory, and gaining light is now the loss of memory. It’s almost as if they are saying that Ignorance is bliss.
Also, Clovis communed with the darkness, or at least studied it. Could he by chance have tried to replicate this black veined substance through SIVA?
Not a bad theory
Considering that he used an artifact of the Black Fleet/The Witness/The Darkness to make the Alkahest for Exos.
This was done to preserve the memories, personality, and very qualia of those who would become Exo.
Keep in mind we also got Deep Sight from the Pyramid on Europa.
IMHO, it’s all being tied together. We’re seeing how deep these roots of Darkness go.
It would not surprise me if SIVA was an attempt to replicate more power from the Pyramid. Especially given the shape and form in comes in.
Thats actually not bad. Siva seems like a Man made replica, look at the mutated Iron Lords. And now Imagine that but with alien eldritch horror parasite
It's not that Ignorance is Bliss, but that Forgiving is better than Revenge.
Tho really it's just a consequence of the Darkness Negentropic (Anti-entropic) nature.
Entropy causes what is commonly known as "The Arrow of Time", the creation and destruction of information is the source of the passage of time, but the Darkness is the power to create Order out of Disorder, causing it to make time go Backward.
That's what happened to Mars, and that's what Deepsight does
That would not make sense, as that substance is no where on Earth in all these centuries gone by since Bray did his nonsense. The Witness wanted to end things, so why wouldn't it let him simply let the system get overrun by Vex instead? It's too calculated an occurrence and seems to be a plan of sorts by a schemer.
I think the one who spoke to Bray was actually Savathun. It makes sense, as she was the one who also conned Crota into cutting open reality into the bed😢 home world and thus encountering Quria. Gaining Quria allowed Savathun some decent insight into happenings, since she was very cunning and needed an edge to exact her revenge on the Witness and Rhulk. There's no way she would have known any of her plans to get the Traveller to see her would work, so she would have had to have some insight into future time lines and the one piece that enables everything in Destiny to move along the unpredictable path is the Guardian. Even the lore of the weapon, which only the guardian can weild because they(singular) are able to use both light and dark, Savathun herself could not even though she was once of darkness minions and newly born of the light.
For me black veins have been consistent with the Darkness since the Black Garden story from vanilla D1.
If you were to look at the Black Heart without engaging the Sol Progeny, it radiates thin black veins into the air. Thr Black Heart also pulses with an energy that looks quite similar to Taken energy. They're similar enough in appearance to when we're shrouded in Darkness (best example is during the Prophecy dungeon). Also consider all the champions too; each of those have veins of Darkness coming from them.
So my theory is, that whatever the veins are is a connection to the Witness. Champions haven't/can't take the substance within them because maybe they're not strong enough. Maybe they'll have to do more killing before they can become champions as per the Sword Logic, to become Disciples.
The note about SIVA caught my attention too. We know Clovis Bray was enamoured with the Darkness, so what if his own inteference with SIVA's creation is what made the nanites become somewhat sentient under Rasputin's control (at least during the fall if the Iron Lords). Maybe the entire CONSUME ENHANCE REPLICATE command for SIVA is similiar the Darkness to CONSUME other matter so it can REPLICATE itself and spread further and let's be honest, the champions are definitely ENHANCED.
Side note, the Taken (according tp their Grimoire) are also put into their final shape by being consumed and enhanced.
Whilst I agree with Byf that these veins are NOT SIVA, there are some similarities which at least suggest there is a design (in-canon) inspiration
Boom. Now throw the Glykon lore (flora) and what the Drifter keeps and we are cooking.
As stupid and ridiculous as it sounds this game saved my life during a REALLY hard couple of years. I isolated myself from everyone in my life because of personal challenges and destiny was my only form of escapism as a young teenager. After those couple of years passed I put down my controller for another 6 years because I felt the need to focus on real life and make up for lost time. Recently I've come back to the game after finally learning that it's alright to get to enjoy yourself sometimes and that I don't have to feel guilty about doing things besides working and maintaining relationships. Thank u byf for so eloquently explaining destiny lore for all these years. I'm so so happy to see that you're still making great videos ( : and to anyone else who's using this game as a way to escape a brutal reality, things will get better!
I think you're on the right track honestly, we constantly see entities that aren't guardians creating plans for themselves to return after death, and the veins I believe is this for rhulk which would also make sense why the caretaker has the substance in his backback, he could've been instructed to infect someone or something with the substance if rhulk were to ever die
If I recall correctly isn't there heart imagery for the darkness? Could be veins
This is probably either one of two things. 1. Initiating a new darkness subclass, completing the trio of stasis, poison, and (X). 2. A resurrection and/or taking process by a sentient force from Rhulk’s body.
Happy to see my 8 year investment in the game’s darkness story finally pan out lmao. Started from grimoire cards, and now we’re here! I’m interested in why rhulk was chosen to be a disciple and what does that tell us about how the witness and their forces work? Like does every pyramid have a disciple? Is the idea that every disciple might have to fight to the death one day and then *boom* final shape? Is that what we’re preventing? Gonna go ponder my orb brb.
It could be a good idea. Imagine It like the olympic games: Each country selects a champion to represent them and then they compete.
In Destiny the "selection" of the champion is mediated directly by Witness, essentially the strongest/ most fit for survival of the entire species is selected (the closest to the final shape from the species) and the rest of the species is sacrificed since It is no longer needed. After all the species are either dead or have a champion, they would actually Battle to the death to prove which one among them all actually becomes the final shape. Which one among the best of all races is more fit for survival of the entire universe. That would be the final shape.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 so the battle for the final shape is just like a massive version of the Hunger Games meets natural selection? Also, just out of curiosity; is this like your head-canon or is this actual lore? I'm not really up-to-date on this "final shape" stuff, hence why I'm binging Byf's videos.
@@shreknskrubgaming7248 byf legit said to drop head canon speculation in the comments bro
@@jruh2141 yes, he did, but this sounds like something that would not surprise me if it was actually part of the lore. I mean, it makes sense, so I just wanted to know if it was purely speculation or if there was some credence to back it up from the official lore. As I said, I don't know much about the "final shape," so I have no idea what's speculation and what's not.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 this matches up with sword logic so it’s not improbable. That still leaves the relationship between the witness and the darkness and the traveler and the light.
Could this not be related to the fauna from last year? The stuff we see around katabasi? They’re aren’t super similar. But I keep thinking of the way Fungus grows underground.
Very veiny. Continueing to spread. Eventually leading to the creation of more plant life?
Like if this were a pre mature growth of the plant life on the Glykon.
When I first saw those root-like things grow out of the care taker, I started thinking of the Tree of Silver Wings from the Season of Arrivals. Imagine for a moment:
If the Light and Darkness are two symmetrical parts of a singular whole, maybe the Light manifested as the Tree and the Roots are manifestations of the Dark. It would make sense, if you follow the analogy, that the Dark "takes" nutrients from the soil and the Light "gives" life to everything it interacts with.
It almost seems like the Darkness is a type of fungi and the root like veins that are coming out of the bosses and in the lore tab are based on Mycelium. Some types of fungi are known to have mine altering substances including feelings of euphoria. It would also track with the Darkness' stated goals of death as fungi exists to break down dead and decaying matter. The name Gouging Light may refer to how fungi works in that it finds an entrance and then it's root system digs in to break it down.
It's the flood!
my initial thought was that the “black veins” and “pulsing” made me think of the black heart, but i like the rhulk theory too.
I wonder if that black substance is the same as the "Luster" that is mentioned in Shattered Suns
Could Siva possibly be an artificial derivative of the veins studied and adapted by braytech from the Europan pyramids. The resemblance between the two is probably not a coincidence and if they share a connection the force that controls siva may be some kind of Backdoor? Pure speculation but the connection between its description siva and Clovis brays study of the darkness may explain how Rasputin was so easily turned off by the pyramids. He was commanded, reaching massively
I've always felt that there was something inherently evil about SIVA's design. From the moment we first saw the pyramid ships, I knew there has to be some sort of influence. Since then the similarities in design have only increased and IMO there's no way it's just coincidence.
@@ethanrappthefilmmaker There isn't anything evil about the design of SIVA, it's literally nanites. Tiny machines that can build or destroy. The purpose of it was to help with crafting colonies when delivering new inhabitants to new habitable world. You guys are reading way too much into designs that but the very nature of mathematics of shapes will intersect. The simple fact as large as the universe is, certain shapes will always be dominant. Why are the fleet ships pyramids in the first place? Were the Egyptians influenced by the Witness's disciples as well, they also precede the events of Destiny by 3500 years. See what I'm getting at, it's just the mathematics of it, the one language that is universal across the universe calculations. Physics is the same regardless of where in the universe it is studied, so of course the shapes derived from it will be seen across civilizations never before come into contact, that's just how this world works and possibly how ours also works, it would make no sense for physics to change across the universe, that would make it completely unstable to even exist in the first place.
@@evilformerlys4704 I'm referring to the red and black spikey tendrils of living darkness. That's what is unsettling to me. There's nothing menacing about the pyramids of Giza but if they were covered in veiny black jagged structures you can bet it would be.
May I add in your own words at the end of rhulk lore book he emerges out of a black pool maybe the witness infects their desiples to make them more loyal and fanatic
the connection that immediately came to mind for me is from the raid lore books, where it mentions while rhulk is in the abyss where he is “broken”, the witness then makes him “unbroken”. there’s potential that is meant in a more literal sense and that the witness planted something in rhulk that brought him back and transformed him in some way into becoming a disciple, this something could be the tree like veins that are stretching out almost in hopes on finding something to latch onto, you could also make a case for the caretaker having it due to rhulk possibly trying to convert it into a disciple but isn’t there yet
Those tree style of growth when the bosses in the raid die. Reminds me of the tree from a couple of seasons ago. When we first got the orb artifact from the pyramid ship. What if the goo is the sap from the tree and it gives the darkness is power to gain strength. Just a thought. Love the vids.
What if the trees of silver wings are influenced by both the Light and the Darkness in a since which one ever takes over said tree will give off a different type of substance?
I think Byf's theory about the sample being a portion of Rhulk is pretty bang-on. I believe this energy that Rhulk and The Caretaker draw their power from and use to battle us will be one of the two remaining Darkness subclasses: Resonance (the other being Corruption/Decay).
If we compare Stasis to Solar, we see they are symmetrical opposites. I believe all three Darkness subclasses will possess the same symmetry with their respective Light opposites.
Solar -> Renewal & Healing
Stasis -> Stagnation & Death
Void -> Additive consumption of energy/matter
Corruption -> Subtractive decay of energy/matter
Arc -> Balanced border between different energy states (High & Low)
Resonance -> Dissolving borders between similar energy states (a tuning fork resonating with another of the same tone)
Mark my words: Resonance and Corruption will be the final Darkness subclasses
Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but perhaps this is a hint to how the Veil (concept alien race directly related to the darkness/witness) are created? Or maybe it’s something much more simple, and it’s the stuff that was in the Caretaker’s backpack.
Bruh there is no darkness race.
@@riothegod1831 it’s in concept art and such, search it up. A lot of people think it’ll come with something like Lightfall
@@xeno-2861 in concept art bro. We're not getting a darkness race, it wouldn't fit in the current lore about disciples and the witness recruiting the last of a species to become a disciple. There's won't be a darkness race. There will be disciples.
@@xeno-2861 the concept art for the darkness race was used as the nightmare like entities hovering on the moon everywhere.
I don't know where else to place this theory so here we go:
Ive been feeling like this golden, dark fractal, force we see in the raid is going to be the last dark subclass. I can see us confronting the witness against an army of this and learning to use it just as we did with Stasis. And of course I assume Corruption would be the second darkness subclass.
I just think that all of this is just building momentum for when this power finally arrives
A pseudo-conquered symbiotic organism from a now dead planet? Maybe a preview of some future darkness abilities?
The replacing pain with pleasure bit seems to be line with the old grimoire card descriptions of something getting Taken. Taken are present in the raid. And it would line up with Savathun's remark at the Altar of Reflection of the Taken King returning. It could be that you're drawing lines where there are none.
If the darkness works through memory that may explain why our guardian lost there memory upon being revived.
Remember how the Darkness talked Bray into creating the Vex portals? Along with teaching him how to make the fluid that makes Exos, by combining Darkness with radiolaria?
Maybe more of our Golden Age Tech was similarly "inspired," and this feels like a biological equivalent to SIVA. It also feels similar to horsehair worm parasites, taking over a host and controlling their actions, and then slithering out when the host dies.
Is there lore about Ana Bray and what happened to her and Rasputin when the pyramid ship arrived on mars? I’m very interested in what happened during that time frame and am looking for answers. Could SIVA be linked to the darkness? I wonder if this parasite that took Marco is something that Rasputin tried to mimic in the form of SIVA.
From my interpretation of the dialogue, it sounds like this could be a correlation of the darknesses attempt to “drink the light”. By the reference to the dark material veins in the ground- what seems like connecting with the guardian. To me it’s a dark material that’s able to become one with the guardian. Which is why his leg healed. I’m not fully sure but it sounds like this could correlate to the first attempts of “drinking the light”
Could be related to the stuff/things that The Drifter encountered on that one frozen planet. Don't remember all the lore perfectly, so I could be remembering things wrong.
Def a link between the flora of the Glykon and the flowers of the black garden and these roots / veins.
Remember the pyramid and the Tree of Silver Wings?
Thanks bro.. you're my number one destiny's lore source
I personally think it’s the black liquid. The very same liquid we saw The Witness emerge from. When we defeat an enemy loaded with it, it reaches out sort of like how the silver tree grew as we empowered it with the light in season of arrival.
The dark roots have been a thing to me since Shadowkeep and the introduction of champions were a thing, even when you look at the "Champion Entrance" transmat effect (I believe that's what it's called), very dark root like structures ripple out, it's likely the effects such are similar to the moon's nightmare's as when they die or appear, there are dark red and black roots as well.
Since Rise of Iron and SIVA arguably. It's everywhere the darkness may have influenced.
@@ethanrappthefilmmaker You know what, you're right, forgot how SIVA is a root like thing that gradually supersedes whatever it touches in an effort to improve it. I suppose an even bigger leap back would be the Black Heart and you could say they're like blood vessels and arteries, which kind of ties into Collective Obligation.
I think that this is some kind of "pain sharing" substance that consumes and then shares whatever is happening to it with the victim
Like Marco had a broken leg and punctured lung yet wasn't really feeling pain but instead the black veins were sort of connecting him to the sparrow making his heart rhythm the same as it's engine block
So since nothing was damaging the sparrow Marco also wasn't feeling any pain despite being seriously injured because he was now linked to the sparrow
But obviously this "linking" comes at a cost and the black veins will consume whatever they come into contact with which in this case was unfortunately Marco but I think he was able to stop it completely consuming him when he fired his sidearm
Given the description and the 'black veins' spoken words in the lore entry, I think that was a pure sample of darkness uncontrolled/corrupted by the witness and it was attempting to take over Marco in the same way it originally took over...whatever the Witness used to be?
Maybe trying to find a replacement to the Witness since the darkenss is realizing that their own Avatar is too dangerous, so the need to replace him before he ends the game completely.
Always remember that The Darkness (the Sword Logic) is neutral as is The Light (self-reinforcing complexity, maybe?)
The Witness however, for whatever reason, is not.
I think darkness (at least as it is wielded by the witness) replaces anything that can be perceived as weakness in the host/user. This reflects the philosophy of the final shape: as the shape of the universe is hewn away and the weaker species are wiped out, darkness closes in on the universe, replacing the weaker species. I think the black fluid is a more pure form of darkness, and probably what the veins coming out of rhulk are. The fact that they come out of rhulk reflect how his "weakness" (his attachment to his clan, people, planet, etc.) had been replaced by darkness when he became the witness' disciple. The fluid saw weakness in Marco's injuries, and replaced this weakness with darkness, at the same time corrupting him. I imagine this is what happens to the various guardians in the trials weapon lore tabs who have been succumbing to darkness (mostly via stasis use) for the past year or so, slowly replacing "weaknesses" in their personality until they are compassionless and brutal. I wonder if the black fluid is capable of doing this faster than stasis or a worm larvae because it is a more direct/pure connection to the darkness/witness. I hope that eventually we'll get to see or even fight a truly dark, corrupted guardian in game, and maybe they'd have the black veins come out of them on death.
I think this may be how we're able to be revived if we lose the light during lightfall. If it contains memories, and or personalities in it, we could possibly use it to record our memories and personality so we essentially have a darkness version of a ghost respawn.
I think we have been seeing this material for a lot longer than just since Rhulk showed up, I want to say we started seeing it back at the start of Shadowkeep. The various champions have a similar kind of tendril structure on them, just red tinged and with some semblance of shape. I think the tendrils are Darkness power, and that power needs to be shaped by a mind in order to be used. In the champions the power manifests itself into the various buffs that we need the artifact mods to break, but in Rhulk it has become intrinsic, internal, and highly concentrated. Same with the Caretaker, though it probably more likely it's Worm was gorged on the power. In both cases, on death, the concentrated Darkness was too dense to dissipate, and so it fractals out to find a new mind to give it form.
What i really want Byf, is a personal vlog on how you think you'll feel when this content gets removed from the game in the near future; barring new and old players alike from enjoying the content they've paid for, or the story they wish they could enjoy.
Reminds me of the bodies in the vow raid. maybe it was somehow a piece of a worm taken from the raid. Also descriptions are reminding me of the body horror found in the Southern Reach trilogy.
Hello Byf! Long time listener here. Thanks for all you do. I'll keep it short and simple, in regards to the black veins, I am immediately reminded of the "snake like" slithering entities that Drifter encountered with his fireteam when they encountered the monoliths on Europa. Just a theory, but may be worth looking into?
2:59 - Mariachi music? I love that they put a "Red vs Blue" reference in lore.
The description of healing black veins reminds me of the new exotic Warlock boots that add healing onto your empowering rift
My thought is that this Root-like substance is linked to how the Witness remakes those who becomes his disciples. Like how he remade Rhulk, and how his powers might have been used to remake the Caretaker
Gouging light, sounds exactly like that of the stuff that rhulk used when you fight him, like that strange golden light thats also surrounded in darkness. If anything it seems like its connected to his spear and the caretakers coffin like structure on his back where both these lights originate from, as I feel like the connection is too close to be ignored.
marco's description of the black veins and what it did to him reminds me of the lore card containing cayde's recollection of the collapse, maybe some kind of darkness weapon like civa but more spooky and psychological rather than techy and sciencey
i just went and listened to the lore card in question and cayde says something along the lines of "my systems go sideways, all but my senses... it wants me to witness this" just thought that name drop was cool, wonder if they planned that or just coincidence
I think the biggest thing you overlooked was that this substance was first encountered during the Dead Man's Tale quest. The guardian at the end of it had these "appendages" coming from it as well. Maybe there is some lore with that, that would tie into this?
Those are different, they're a fungus that thrives on darkness. Drifter has them in his ship as well.
Consume, Enhance, Replicate...
I know it's not SIVA, but even if the Rhulk theory is correct, that's exactly what would be happening. Consuming the victim, Enhancing them to match the form and power of Rhulk, and finally Replicating Rhulk completely.
The black veins do feel like some sort of Venom (simbiote) equivalent from Marvel, but Darkness. So maybe they create a personnality based on the creature they inhabit, as many have suggested, and then keep it after the death of said creature. They very much likely are created and given by the Witness too and serve not only as a way of giving powers of Darkness but also as a way to transcend death... Through memory.
I’d have to relate the substance from 6010 to the plant like thing from the Presage quest back in season of the chosen. From the description we’re given and from the raid how it forms from their bodies it seems, I wouldn’t say identical, but similar in how they move and infest. On the other hand I could be completely wrong and just like to make a call back to a good exotic quest with lore tied to it.
My interpretation is that the thing that infected Marco was similar or the same thing that fixed up Rhulk down in the abyss. In both situations the person it was drawn to had similar injuries and could be rightfully described as "broken", while the regenerative properties could definitely be described as them becoming "unbroken".
On top of that, when it says "what remained of Marco squeezed the trigger", I took that as something more psychological; because Marco was interpreting pain as euphoria, was receiving visions and possibly even was starting to be talked to by this thing, I took it as what was left of him that hadn't yet been enthralled and enraptured by this power. Sort of like a more organic, much slower process to being Taken, maybe.
I think the black veins give some dark power while also being a last resort "body snatch" if rhulk were to die.
It could be. They "remember" Rhulks body like a pen Drive. And like a parasite, theyd find a host in which to replicate this effect, and transform the host into Rhulk. A different sense to achieve immortality.
"Rhulk has died, hes not coming back because of sword logic" However his essence by overpowering another individual can actually Grant him another chance at living
I thought “hope births agony births stillness” reminded me a lot of what the speaker said in his final speech. the progression of becoming a light bearer. “Bravery leads to devotion, devotion leads to death”
Could also be the darkness' take on the vex. The vex already embody the sword logic in a way by attempting to be the final shape (and as hinted in the lore book might be the final shape from the flower game), bus as rhulk experimented on fallen (scorn), hive (worm) and other stuff in his pyramid, its not out of the question he might have experimented on vex as well. The description of the fluid replacing body parts does seem similar to what happened to kabr and even asher mir
I think it's the same material that witness came out of in the cutscene. Also witness used it to heal Ruhlk when he was thrown into the abyss, he was broken then he was unbroken, Ruhlk called it Luster then Witness fixed Rheliksbane (Ruhlk's Glaive) with it and he used it on Ruhlk a second time when he converted him completely, He was still questioning the Witness before, but after he came out of the blackened solution he was obedient and he said he felt relief
all of this is from the Shattered Suns Lore Book from 9th and 10th entry
Gotta love that realistically whenever we do dumb shit with our sparrows and die we're setting off a small nuke
I want to know then What are the mines in GoA made of that they kill you in a 40 km radious
I noticed on my day 1 run, that the stuff coming out of The Caretaker/Rulk is the same texutre and animation of the Tree of Silver Wings from arivals, almost like saplings, maybe some interaction between Dark and Light causes it to grow?
I think it is like a ghost, almost like those veins are rhulk’s control things. I think he can use it to control beings, meaning he was controlling the caretaker. And he was beginning to control Marco. Which means, is the dark killable? Like fully? And also, is the rhulk we killed rhulk’s true body or was it one he took?
I haven't gotten to witch queen yet, but the black veins thing reminds me of when Crow was slowly but surely becoming Taken by that one Ahamkhara... He had veins of black on his face before he got eaten. just food for though.
One visual similarity that may be worth mentioning is that the resonant visual effect was also present in black armory weapons.
In Rhulk's lore books whenever Rhulk is recalling his past there are similar recollections in the signature verbal style of the Witness. Listen to how it's talking. It's like a power of suggestion, constantly trying to convince Marco that worlds should be burned free and stilled. That it's warm and safe in the dark. That he should lie still and be corrupted. Whatever the dark influence is I think it's safe to say that the Witness is using more than good arguments to convince people to kill for them.
Thanks for sharing the lore of these items some of us will never get in the game! Love everyone of your videos!
👍
I'm no D2 buff, but my first thought is something like the Taken. I personally haven't seen any instances of humans being taken but perhaps the remnants of Rhulk/Caretaker are able to break this boundary. The voice could then be rationalized as some other taken being or servant of the witness. Idk but would be wild if at some point the witness and his followers began to take humans into their army
In the lore of rulk it talks about him using the luster of the witness. These same black veins and orangish energy can be witnessed on the moon in the nightmares and that same branching root like pattern can be seen on killing them. We also know that it seems like when people took on the power of stasis the darkness would actually speak to them and so I wonder if this specimen is in fact hinting at a potential new darkness subclass something I've been working on in my free time is actually coming up with a darkness sub class that is based around this idea of using nightmare energy / the luster of the witness mainly just for fun but it would make sense to have an equal amount of darkness subclasses versus light subclasses.
I've got a thought, when it says what's left of Marco.. I doubt that'd be the case as Sword Logic dictates natural selection and survival of the fittest ideaology. But let's say that these weins are Rhulk looking to Possess someone who get's infected sort of like Egrogore, his using this to try and "Do a Sava/Osiris" infiltrate to weaken from within. All pure speculations, but it'd be a fun idea for headcanon
Clarity possibly? The stuff that clovis mixed with Alkahest (Radiolaria) to create the memory/personality receptive fluid that made Project Exo actually work in holding an encoded human mind, thats what it seems like to me given what i know about the DSC (Deep Stone Crypt for those new to the game)
I think it might be the black goo that we see The Witness came out of in the cutscene at the end of the campaign. I say it's this because in Rhulk's Lorebook that you explored in the video if you recall, The Witness had Rhulk INSIDE of that goop as he made Rhulk relive his memories of killing his own people and destroying Lubrae.
There was substantial corruptive growth at the end of the presage mission on the glycon too. Not sure what the connection is yes but they have to be related. The whole dark parasitic growth aspect of both of them.
Relics of Nezarec are similar, had that container not cracked we would likely have stored it with the relics of N as relics of Rhulk and fittingly a similar think is possible to occur from those canopic jars containing Nezarecs corpse
This substance that was healing Marco and providing him with relief or euphoria and taking over his leg sounds a lot like what a symbiote would do in the marvel universe, in fact it’s exactly what happened in the first venom movie, except for the visions thing
Besides the black veins, I thought it kinda sounded like a Vex transformation. There’s lore talking about the “hallucinogenic properties” of just coming in contact with Vex parts, sounded like he was slowly losing control like Kabr.
We got to get my name is byf to 1,000,000 subscribers this man is a lore god.
the growing darkness tree roots also resembles the darkness in the first cutscenes from the speaker talking about the golden age and the darkness.
I don't have a solid theory on what exactly is the Black Veins, but they sound really similar to whatever Rhulk found when he was thrown in the Abyss, especially since it's implied he started to hear the Witnesse after being broken and than unbroken