My issue with religion in politics is when they try to basically say, "I *demand* that all of you behave in the way my religion says we should behave!" and then responds to us pointing out "but we don't believe that, so no" with *"STOP OPPRESSING ME!!!"*
Thats far more of a problem with hardcore believers in an omnigod than anyone else. I'm sure mostly it comes from a good place. "If we make gay marriage illegal the gays can't go to hell because they can't get married" The problem is when you are that fundamentalist you forget others exist and you need to take into account their views as well.
@@jamesgordley5000 My comment was more about the religious fanaticism among voters pushing specific agendas with minority support* at politicians and reacting to people pointing out that not everyone has the same beliefs by pretending to be oppressed when all that's actually happening is someone with different beliefs is saying they want to live their own lives and not be governed by the dictates of others. *citations for minority opinions: Abortion: www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx Gay marriage: www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/support-gay-marriage-reaches-all-time-high-survey-finds-n1244143 news.gallup.com/poll/311672/support-sex-marriage-matches-record-high.aspx Comprehensive sex ed: siecus.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/On-Our-Side-Public-Support-for-Sex-Ed-2018-Final.pdf news.gallup.com/poll/15166/teens-sex-education-abstinenceonly-safesex-approach.aspx That said, the politicians often have at least enough brains (or a smart enough coordinator or whatever) to avoid drawing the line between their religious beliefs and their policies themselves, instead laying out their claim to be religious and their siding whichever way on whatever issue and letting the voters draw the connection, because otherwise the 1st Amendment might cause problems.
@@jamesgordley5000 Um, every politician that wants to ban abortion, gay equality, and maintain the gender gap? Because there is no non-religious reason to want to do any of those things? And if you were being sarcastic, sorry, because it didn't come across clearly.
You are right that "Stop oppressing me" is not a good argument in that context. But, here is what is a good argument in that context: People vote to coerce others into behaving a certain way based on premises that the people being coerced disagree with all the time. That is how liberal democracy works. Whether you believe in climate change or not has no bearing on whether everyone else can or should vote to make you follow environmental laws meant to mitigate climate change. So, you not believing in someone else's religion, has no bearing on whether or not they should try to use politics to enforce their religion's rules. That is what democracy is: groups of people with mutually exclusive beliefs competing for votes to see which beliefs the rules that we all follow will be based on and therefore what rules will be adopted.
"I don't care about politics" is an illusion of the privileged. If you eat, you are into economy and politics. If you breathe, the pollution is about politics. If you work and pay your bills, politicians are in your vallet. If you pay taxes, they're there as well. If your child needs a doctor, politics is deciding if it can get one. They will decide what your kids learn (or are forbidden from knowing) in school. "I don't care about politics" doesn't mean anything except "I have enough to eat, pay my cell phone and my Netflix, so I couldn't bother enough to care, to inform myself or to do something about my country's problems."
@@gaiagreen2690 same basic thing. If you missed the joke, see a tired old comedian called Jakov Smirnoff (stage name, obviously) whose claim to fame was just inverting sentences and inserting "in Soviet Union" at the front. So, in this example it would be "in Soviet Russia politics does you!". Lame but it popped into my head with the op statement. Sorry you missed it though...
@@jasonGamesMaster If you are talking about actual Soviet Union-time Russia, then yes. In modern Russia, it's not that true (but getting closer to it). Russian political decisionmakers (many of which are of law enforcement and intelligence background and/or acting members of such structures) are not really interested in you, until you get deep into politics (i.e. participate in oppositionary manifestations, non-system parties, or, gods forbid, in so called "extremist" organisations), they suddenly find themselves very interested in using you as a device to practice policemen' baton (and other melee) skills or some extreme things RUclips don't like to be mentioned (t****ing, that is).
My veiw is essentially: it's fine (and inevitable) if your religion is political- as long as your politics aren't religious. Every aspect of ones worldview has some say in how they view politics, that's just inherent. So long as one doesn't try to make THEIR religion legislation that is imposed on others. Great vid btw, far more eloquent then I could put it
@J. Smith But that's not a problem with our view or ideal.. That's a problem with people crossing a line they shouldn't be crossing, or being unable to recognize when to reel it in. I'm not sure turning politics into this hotbed of religious scruples would have the effect people think it will. Sure, it will justify that there are other opinions out there to the greater majority of Christianity that is abusing this quietness. I just worry it will also alienate the more folkish religious, into greater fear for their safety; as court of public opinion doesn't take very kindly to animal sacrifice, necromancy and the darker side of things. Oh heck, do it.. they've had far too many years of privileged entitlement, and quite urging to relinquish that control has always ended in a "we're being persecuted!!!" complex. It's not any different than the Satanists standing up for themselves. Maybe we do need this front stage and center.
Its not really religions informing, but overriding how people think in culty stuff. As he mentioned, of course his believes play into what he politically believes. Just the thing is, everyone else hasa right to do so and politics is compromises whats good for everyone, I meanmlk was driven by his faith, it kinda was his apeal top,being a pastor. Preaching if about political issues. It never overrideshis critical thinking or worldly issues being caused by material conditions. That still human reasoning What i notice is that healthy religious argumets there are because they motivate people rather than replace critical thinking. No biblical argument should be valid in any courtroom thou
@@ginomammana The issue with electing false progressives like biden and Obama is they make the democratic voters feel like all is well and whatever we are doing overseas must be just and good intentioned (as if any bomb dropped is anything but aggression). Honestly I'd rather have Cheeto man for another 4 years than Biden. At least then people would pay attention to whom we are bombing and why.
@@Kyle496 Except Trump bombed more in his first term than Obama's first term, and I honestly can't remember hearing criticisms levied against him for dropping those bombs? Maybe I'm mistaken, there was this whole narrative from the right that Trump was anti-war so I might have seen more of that.
@@hongo9111 If you didn't hear those criticisms, you weren't paying attention. The MOAB got a TON of airplay and was followed up with resounding critiques of Trump's higher civilian death toll.
As geralt of rivia said "Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all."
Politics and religion are soft of connected by nature. The only thing I don't agree with is *FORCING* people to live under a religion. I fully believe in religious freedom! But I guess that in itself is a political take huh.
As a Zoroastrian, I 100% agree. The way in which my religion is political is with the egalitarian and environmentalist nature of my religion, for example. Zarathustra! Mazdak! Khorradimin!
It's pretty political to be pagan when one's former religion (my former religion was Mormonism, regrettably; I was raised that way, it wasn't my choice) literally had manifest destiny as a cornerstone of its faith, and when living in an area that a notorious Christian Dominionist lives in.
I dunno. I'm of mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I want to say, yes, of course your religious views should inform your politics because I want people to be free to express themselves and their beliefs. On the other hand I then think that that's how we got to gay people being arrested for being gay, conversation therapy for children still be legal in the most of the country, abortion rights being under attack, ect... I'm reminded that many hold religious beliefs that I find particularly repugnant and toxic because they hurt other people and I don't want them expressing those beliefs generally, but especially politically. Personally I had the philosophy that it was fine for religion to influence a political opinion, but that couldn't be the SOUL reason for holding that political belief. As least when it came to legislation. But even then that just leads to people coming up with ad hoc justifications for their beliefs and doesn't really change anything. I don't know of I thing that people should let their religion shape their political beliefs. I just think we should focus on harm reduction and being inclusive (so long as that inclusion doesn't negate the harm reduction). If you're religious views push you in that direction then great, but if they don't I don't think they have any business informing law.
So often basic humanity, empathy, and ethics are branded "politics" in discussions. It's a fantastic maneuver to excuse people from having to maintain any of them. Thank you for always being an exemplary voice, especially for our community.
I kinda is, but well choosing to ignore that is too, to a level everything is political. Love, political apearently why else being against same sex couples, food, very political. Self expression and gender, apearently political. Yes conservatives were the ones making straight political. By selling it as default wrongly in the first place. As is shutting out alternatives publicly. Or "We live in a society"
Minorities such as us pagans (as well as LGBT and people of color) are expected to respect the opinions of our adversaries, even when said opinions are literally talking about eradicating us or preventing our peaceful existence.
So, my perspective as a secular humanist/atheist: many of us don't want to admit it, but alot of us hold to our atheism in an almost religious fervor. Its just that we claim to do it through "logic" and "science." Also, I have observed an.... arrogance among my peers that makes secular humanism seem like a joke. Many look down on religious or spiritual people and funny enough, we admit to voting with our secular humanism influencing our decisions
Yea. I will never understand it. But I chalk it up to latent Christianity. While I may find the idea that I would personally enter back into the theist world (although there is evidence I never actually was part of it, but that is another story) that doesn't mean that I get to tell theists what to do. I am no better than them, and I do consider myself agnostic in that science does not and actually can not answer whether there is/are/were god/gods at all. Still I see no proof that they do or at least any proof that they have agency and can affect the world, being immaterial beings and us being in a material world (queue Madonna) but again, I am no expert. And it in no way hurts me for theists to do their thing. My rule is don't proselytize to me (as in, come at me unbidden) and if you bring up the discussion, then I will not hold back from discussing my views either.
@@Sewblon The ability to ignore the negative ramifications of political choices, is pretty much the definition of privilege. I.E. Asking for drug tests of welfare recipients but not CEO’s.
@@dscarron Sounds reasonable. But the upper classes are not less politically active than others. They are more politically active than others. The well educated are more likely to vote than other groups. The rich are more likely to join political organizations and lobby the government. So the privileged do not act like they are insulated from politics, just the opposite. Humans are loss averse creatures, we fight harder to hold onto what we have than we do to gain what we never had.
your religious beliefs are going to play a role in your morals and your morals are going to have influence on how you vote and your political leanings. Therefore religion or lack thereof is going to inevitably affect your politics
Absolutely! I used to see the terrible influence of conservative christians in American politics as an inevitable consequence of religion "infecting" politics. Then I came to this realization that of course religion is going to affect political positions through morals, and that the problem I have with the christians isn't that they're using their religious morality to influence politics but rather just that their religious morals are shitty morals.
@@pipperoni3636 The attempts to strip rights from women is a common complaint. I'm not necessarily talking about reproductive rights or modern issues, but even old stuff like "They must be housewives, no options!" from the 1950s. Demonization of other religions that aren't Christianity which puts followers of those religions in harm's way for fanatics. Or when the Aids crisis happened, and some politicians dragged their feet on trying to help because some people thought it was an act of God. A lot of lives were lost on that one. Christians aren't evil; toxic ideas just need to questioned for all beliefs.
@@hope-cat4894 In a modern context, I don't believe any women's rights are being stripped- abortion is a humanitarian crisis infringing on the child's right to life. I believe some religions should be criticised for good reason, if your "prophet" was a paedophile I believe it is well deserved- ofcourse not everyone is sensible and religious fanaticism should be condemned. Also the suffragettes came about because of menstrual and contraceptive technologies, it wasn't Christians holding women back.
As a Christian with a deep respect for the spiritual life of my pre-Christian ancestors, and who has done deep explorations of Christian history and theology, I love how you have expressed this thought. I've been a leftist of some variety for my entire adult life, but it was my understanding of my faith and the ethics that it proposed that led me to that political belief. Christianity, from its earliest days, proposed a morality based on the intrinsic value of ALL people, and acting based on empathy and service to others (though I freely acknowledge that the religion as a whole has done a dismal job of actually behaving that way over the centuries). My issue has never been that Christians vote their faith; my issue has been that Christians don't understand their faith, and so are easily led to act (and vote) in wildly hypocritical ways. Love and respect, brother. I'll offer prayers for you, and I ask you to do the same for me, by whatever fashion you do.
Yes exactly this! There are so many people who wield the cross as an argument for their selfishness and bigotry, not knowing (or caring) that Christ as he is presented in the bible would absolutely disagree with everything they were saying. They don't seem to even have a basic understanding of the code that they claim to live by.
My view on the matter is (currently) that it's good for me to have my religious views inform my politics, but I do not want to make politics into my religion. I've seen too many "why my religion is political" essays turn into partisan ultimatums, and it's off-putting. To the point that the title of this video made me a bit nervous, but thankfully my fears were unfounded. I like this video.
Looking back I’m seeing that I’ve held many views based on my religion for quite some time. I’ve always been someone who values personal freedoms, small government, and embracing more rural living, and this comes from so much of what I see in Heathenry
I’ll admit I first thought well this is the first step of going down the rabbit hole, then without realizing it I had watched 80% of the video without realizing it and I was nodding along...so yes I support your religious practice as political, and yes I support everyone who has a political view with there religion, and just as you say, do no harm to others, Or was that Wicca... ( lol)
My reasoning is twofold: - Your religion is what you believe, voting ought to fall in line with what you believe. - If you don't, there are other people who will. And as we've seen in recent times, that leaves you in a reactionary position, without initiative.
I’ve been watching a lot of your videos recently and I have to say I love how you take topics that initially make me go “hmmmmm I dunno about that” and then make me realize my perception is limited and there is always a better way, such that the topic changes meaning to me. Thank you!
This video was super well done! Thanks for such a great take on this issue, Ocean. I am grateful to have someone like you as a vocal and visible pagan on youtube.
As one of those Episcopalians, I've been really thinking about this subject a lot. This video gave me a lot to think about. Part of me Is very hardline in favor for a purely secular government, and my fundamentalist upbringing has poisoned the idea of faith and politics being connected in my mind. And yet...there's the cognitive dissonance. Because when I see the many fights against injustice, I see the God of my religion turning tables raising cane like the prophets of old in the streets. I see the Spirit in MLK when I watch his old videos and sermins. So I'm confused. Maybe the dividing line is not whether you let your faith influence your politics (as few of us can compartmentalize our beliefs so well) but rather, are you trying to legislate your particular faith on others. I dunno. Interesting questions.
As a former 2015 style youtube atheist, this video is getting me to shift some perspectives I haven't even considered re-evaluating since my taking up the polytheist mantle.
I have a close friend that is a Free Mason and I have never hidden my Paganism around him. One of the reason we have become such close friends is our shared value system and respect for the right of people to have a religious or spiritual path of their choosing. If people could simply respect one another, we might have a chance as a society to be more tolerant. Unfortunately, most political tactics are aimed at dividing us a nation. It is difficult for most people to see past these tactics and so they adopt an "us vs them" attitude. They think they are right in blaming some group that does not include themselves for all of our country's problems. This exactly what political parties want. If we are all blaming one another, we will never unite and force our political representatives to be held accountable. Pardon the rant. This problem is as old as time and is exemplified in all cultures. Somehow, we need to become a voice for tolerance and acceptance. What you have suggested in your video is a great start. Amazing content!
Entering polytheism in general showed me a different way of thinking. Even though I have huge gaps in my knowledge, I understand a lot of the philosophy and having converted in my teens, while certain, very important, areas in my brain were developing, completely changed how I would have made personal and political decisions if I converted later on.
I'm really enjoying your videos, Ocean. This is exactly what I'm been looking for. Your insights are so valuable. I had been following another RUclipsr until mid-ish 2020 (take a guess who...) and now that I've come across your content, as well as Wolf and Wind in the Worldtree, I am able to see how absurdly shallow that other creator's content is.
This was a good video. Every time I watch your content, your calm and the way you break these topics down impresses me. I have two questions though: 1) How to we keep the good and chuck the bad? For example, I have had several political arguments with my parents, and when I've got them backed into a corner where logically, they should denounce something Trump has done, or change their mind on supporting him, they pull out the bible and use the bible to justify their supporting Trump. How do we keep people like Steven Anderson out of government while promoting people like MLK to be in government without setting a double standard is basically what I'm asking. 2) how can we achieve pluralism with Christianity trying to get a monopoly on the government, and with the "separation of church and state" being a thing on everyone's lips when this topic comes up?
@J. Smith yes, because an atheist in a polytheist's comment section asking about how we could achieve pluralism is definitely trying to forcibly change peoples' minds instead of allowing people to "live and let live". Yeah, my motivation is definitely to forcibly control Ocean and make him an atheist. Mhm. Yup. You got me. I just want to control everybody so that they think just like me. /s
Mlk did not argument with biblical verses. His arguments come from class analysis, observations, and history. He gave plenty reasons people can look up to and sasly still are observable as why. He was a religious man making material arguments. That still hold up sadly. Which cant be said from anderson. How , listen to the validity of the arguments based on the material reality. And humanism. And human right but then the us never signed them. And respect of everyone, thats not shown harmful. Hatespeech, not ok.
As quite political former Eastern Orthodox Christian, who is now somewhere in a grey zone of straight atheism, ancestor reverence [[libations for the dead]], Buddhism and Taoism. I clearly see your point, as a Christian I did try to compartmentalize my faith and my left leaning politics (and even my science lol). It became too much and my faith ended up getting the axe after a lot of “soul searching”. This grey area is odd feeling, but I think it’s just because I loosened some cultural (and political) bonds that had been in place since my birth. I have much respect for the Heathen community, cheers!
As a Celtic Polytheist, I absolutely agree that being pagan is political by its self. and yes I will vote in accordance with my beliefs also. And I would be willing to bet that we agree far more often than not.
Wait religion is a political statement?..i never knew...its almost like every social interactions between people is political and this includes the gods. I mean its not like the gods are intertwined in nature its self or anything... (Sarcasm font)
Piparskeggr here, have been around "organized" Heathenry for about 30 years. I chuckled when you mentioned that Recons have some of the biggest Personalities...non-Recon has their share, too. Seen quite a few self destruct on both sides of that "aisle."
I think It's an inescapable fact that religion and politics influence each other and our personal values in a reciprocal way. A simple diagram: Religion↔️Personal values↔️Politics
The idea that pagan religion should be accessible or accepting of all seems incoherent, even if one points solely to the strictures surrounding initiatory rites observed and organized specifically to explicate the esoteric meanings of myths or rituals to the few and confer upon them a specialized knowledge and place in the world. I don't quite understand the means through which you get from point A to point B, unless you're approaching the support of Bernie from the point of view of becoming a national democratic socialist country along the lines of modern Britain, and even then it would seem to run counter to the idea of being a 'heathen,' 'pagan,' etc. Much like Islam, the Indo-European paganisms have their political structure by and large baked into the cake, at least insofar as they remain in an ascendant trajectory and not a degenerating or decadent one, (if indulging in something akin to a Spenglerian historical perspective.) This is evident in the structuring of the classes specific to caste systems spread throughout the Indo-European world, and evidenced through the gradual decadence and degeneration of social order through the aging of civilizations as varied as the Japanese and some Mesoamerican societies including the Maya. The Norse from whom you draw at least some portion of your belief system have a myth concerning the origin of the castes as created through the intervention of Heimdallr who sleeps between the spouses of three distinct couples with variant qualities, amongst the noble giving birth to one named King or Princely, said to rival or surpass Odin in runecraft, and whom the eagle teaches to turn his bow away from the chase and towards the hunting of his fellow men, uniting beauty, esoteric knowledge, and the martial discipline into the forebear of a bloodline through which all legitimate authority is grounded, even in the Christian kings of the Anglo-Saxons. Baron Julius Evola, whose name is, I'm sure, mud among some who are likely to see this, (by and large due to misrepresentations of his being a supporter of Fascism or the Third Reich, a reading of any of his works will dispel,) describes in Revolt Against the Modern World the cyclical unfolding of civilizations akin to this as the gradual slip of rulership through the Vedic castes, from the priestly Brahmins which he ascribes the place of to an Imperial figure who is at once a martial figure and the pontifex maximus, the builder of the bridge between the world of becoming and the real world of being, on down to the assertion of authority in the military Kshatriyas, and so on with the rise of merchant-princes who are afforded to buy their authority through Plutocracy until eventually the plebiscite assert themselves and put the proverbial nail in the coffin. He likens this to Hesiod's descriptions of the falling ages of man, likened each to a metal, the next more base than the last, utilizing the Hindu configuration of the present age as that belonging to a demon, the Kali-Yuga, the age of Kali. To Evola, there seems through tracing the Indo-European world of tradition by and large one true authority on earth, and it exists solely in a Ghibelline-style Priest-King who is at once a warrior and a priest, who gives as much life to the gods as they give him. It should be plain to see the threads of Plato's Republic that are woven into this Indo-European worldview, and it, just as the Roman 'Republic' of rule by a hereditary Patrician caste or the Grecian 'Democracy' of rule by vote of Landed Elites and slaveowners, has little in common with any political movement or state entity since the Hapsburg abdication of the title of Holy Roman Emperor and the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire . One shouldn't say either that paganisms are all-welcoming either in their practices of safely enfolding all deities nor of not imposing their own on others. One need look no further than the Roman subjugation of the zealots or persecution of Christians for the refusal to participate in sacrificial rites in obeisances to the Emperor, nor at their setting up of a statue to Jove in the area of the Second Temple, the Book of David's Abomination of Desolation by some biblical scholars' reckoning. In our own time there are nigh constant struggles ongoing between various Hindu nationalist groups and those belonging to myriads of faiths that paint the subcontinent in its divine motley. One can also point to, though less stringently due to lack of explicitly confirming text, the imposition of rites of central Mexican deities onto the westerly Maya through the figure of the jaguar divinity of the Night Sun of El Zotz and others, some of which included the importation of ritual sacrifice of children and infants to flames. This I mention not even in specific condemnation, but merely to point to this as being far from a problem Sola Roma. I don't wish to diminish someone's beliefs, as I consider myself a Christian, though my own philosophical positions in regard to such are largely influenced by men like Guenon, Evola, and other Perennialists. I'll say, though, that pointing to and identifying with a tradition shouldn't be a fashion game of favouring the appearance of the Futhark or Grecian alphabet, or preferring to have a statue of Isis holding Horus over one of Mary and the infant Christ. I'm not specifically indicting you as having done this or its brother sins, it simply seems to me a precarious position to attempt to bring the baggage of the modern world backwards into these traditions which, due to their being long-dormant, are ill equipped to gel with them, particularly with what seems to be a general left-leaning political character to your views. Again for absolute clarity; I'm not attacking your political views, but it seems to one who is widely read on the subject and the interplay of religion and politics to be a precarious position. Anyway there's the novella; if you actually read it; thanks.
There's a difference between religious convictions influencing the moral fiber that affects your political stance and using politics to enforce your religious opinions on others. When Christians oppose LGBTQ+ rights, or abortion, they do it on a purely religious basis. If the only reason you can think of to justify your position is to appeal to your religious beliefs, that does not belong in politics. If, say, your religion teaches you to love others, and that is your motivation for opposing something like slavery, that's not religion becoming political. You have reasons besides your religious beliefs to be against slavery. Namely, empathy for fellow man. Your empathy may be rooted in your religion, which shapes the way you see the world around you, but that empathy itself is not a religious concept.
I'm of the opinion that politics is an unavoidable part of life. Trying to keep spirituality or religion apolitical is a political stance, and one that doesn't make much sense for contemporary pagans of any path or tradition. Great video as usual!
I think everything is political, Theres laws and regulations on everything. Like food, speed limit, crime and even religion I think all religion is political, even being atheist is political
Politically speaking I heavily believe in personal freedoms, what you subject yourself to is your business up until the point that impedes others lives. To that point, I don't think raising a child in a single religion is fair either. It's our responsibility to make sure that future generations can make informed decisions. I think that is probably why people are so aggressive towards religions to begin with, belief that whatever 'truth' they find supercedes other people's individual beliefs and experiences. Admittedly, I was the same way in highschool, despite having gnostic experiences, I always held a detached reaction to them and shutdown on others gnostic experiences as well.
Ocean, Everything is political . But I loved Hitchens quip, "it was said politics is local, Sarah Palin proves, politics is yokel" and that was early on? 👍🏿👍👍🏾👏🏽👏💝☮️🎃😷🐝
I remember feeling bad for holding my political views as a lot of it is based on being a heathen and how I experience and view the gods and ancestors. Of course what cemented them was statistics and science. I'm glad you did this video cause it gives an interesting perspective on the issue.
I'm personally a libertarian. Ones rights only end where another's rights begin. The only political statement i could make connecting my religion to politics is the idea that the second amendment is supported in the havamal
This is such a great video. Thanks you so much for sharing your thoughts and opinions. When I converted from Christianity it brought into question many of my own political views. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.
Socially I'm left leaning libertarian. Economically I lean more conservative. I do this because when I look at, for example, immigrants who would risk life and limb to come here it isn't because the want what they left behind. It's because they strive for the mere opportunity to work hard and be rewarded for it. And to give back to the community. Basically be a productive member of society. Socialized aspects of our government are a pipe dream. Even Bernie Sanders flip-flopped once he became a millionaire. To me, being a pagan is a live and let live lifestyle but it also means calling out bullshit when you see it.
I honestly think we should keep our religion out of politics. You make some great points for your stance. But, I’d like to leave my religion in my head.
my problem with pluralism is that it gives a voice to people who use their religion in bad faith to abuse others. secularism gives no individual any special religious rights over another.
I agree with your arguments completely, although, like you, I didn’t see it this way for most of my life. I’ve had a fundamental shift in perspective, and to me, taking an active stance against injustice is a crucial aspect of what it means to be a good person. My faith is important to me and helps guide me to make the best decisions I can. There’s no way to separate these two. Pluralism is a very important perspective to have.
interesting take. I think I would argue that it is our personal politics that influence our religion, but our religious affiliation feeds back to influence our personal politics. In that sense it is often the case that people tend to view their personal values as stemming from their religion, and make the mistake of ascribing those values to that religion exclusively, and this is where the danger lies. This is why Americans won't vote for an atheist - because they assume that because an atheist denies their God, they must also by necessity deny their values - charity, loving they neighbour etc. The meaning of secularism is to look at shared values, rather than shared religious narrative, recognising that different religions can have the same views about human morality, and ignoring which God has supposedly ascribed that morality. The call to 'keep religion out of politics', as I understand it, is similar to saying don't vote for the party, vote for the policy. There are so many Americans who wield the party system like religion - to the extent that they can't comprehend that the Democrat party of 60 years ago is not the Democrat party of today - that the modern Republican Party is not the party of Honest Abe anymore (if it really ever was). To be a pluralist society, you need a base of secularism. To make an analogy - pluralism is the states, secularism allows those states to be a federation.
My mom has severe depression. I mean like electro therapy end of the line shit. Anyway she finally found a depression medicine that works but the insurance company refused to pay for the dose that’s worked. If she were to pay out of pocket it would be half her income. The American healthcare system sucks. Right now she and my grandparents are in the process of trying to sue the insurance
As someone interested in various religions as an observer and passive practitioner (experiencing certain events or customs as a means of understanding the emotions/significance behind them, i.e. donation and prayer at a Shinto temple (I know this isn't the most significant thing, but it's the only one I could think of, sorry!)), seeing an explanation of and expression of other beliefs through political institutions (not to mention the citation of texts I was otherwise unfamiliar with) is equal parts entertaining and fascinating. My great-aunt and uncle are neo-pagan (I'm uncertain of what sect, if any specific. I know they commonly hold personal celebrations/rituals for the various dates on the Wheel of the Year, and while my uncle accepted a King's Chain I bought him as a birthday present, I still don't have anything specific), so this does have some personal significance for me, at least as a means of grower closer to family that's halfway across the continent. Furthermore, if the idea of "passive practice" is in any way disrespectful to you or anyone else beliefs, PLEASE, do not hesitate to let me know. My understanding of the world should never come at the cost of sanctity; that, and it just sucks to feel bad about wronging people.
Life is politics. The important thing is to do what you mentioned towards the beginning, evaluate your political views every so often, just like you do with everything else that is important in your life such as education, employment and finances, romance and sex, etc.
Just jumping in as a new insurance agent (mostly life, accident, disability, etc), I do think some level of public heath insurance is a must, however most places with nationalized Healthcare due end up still needing a private alternative, which should still be available for people who can and still want cheap underwritten heathcare. And I feel if you can get that kind of coverage (which is usually just getting it when you're younger and keeping it), you shouldn't have to pay into the national heathcare in your taxes. You can get heath insurance without getting it from your job, and just because you got it from your job doesn't mean you're screwed. COBRA goes into effect when you leave a job you get benefits from, and it's easy to find a job where you will be eligible for coverage through them within the 18 months COBRA grants you. Supplemental stuff like I do, when not part of a group plan, is portable and cheap. You can get it from your job, you can get it from your home/auto insurance company in a lot of cases, and you can take it almost anywhere within the US. Getting it from your job doesn't mean you can't pay for it on your own for as long as you want at your next job, in fact carriers like to know when you leave your job so they can keep doing business with you. And most of the supplemental side of things are improvements on public insurance. Buying your own disability policy covers you in addition to what social security can do. An annuity, 401k, or IRA adds to what you'd get from your tax funded pension, and in some cases can be borrowed against, which can't be done with your social security. Life insurance is really not something that can be tax funded, there are too many options as to what would work best for a person. Buying a whole life policy at 19 and keeping it your entire life is ideal, but even as cheap as it would be to start that young, you might be trying to save money to get your life started and really pinching pennies. Maybe a couple years later you might be in a position to go for it, maybe it's better at that time to just get term life for a few bucks a pay period and revisit the issue after getting a promotion or two. Cancer and critical illness insurance are focused on getting you to specialized facilities, covering your travel expenses and helping your family get settled nearby as much as it is concerns paying your bills. That's the sort of thing that otherwise can only be handled by private charities. And of course hospital indemnity is exactly what an NHS is good for. Probably the best pagan argument for private insurance existing at least as an option, is medical autonomy, the right to decide your treatment and elect experimental producers when NHS hospitals might have given up on you or forced treatment plans you don't like or trust on you. When my dad was stationed in the UK and my older sister was just a baby they wouldn't let my parents use a normal sleep apnea machine on her, and forced them to use a motion sensitive mat as a breathe monitor, which was defective and mistakenly registered ever little movement as a sign of good breathing. It almost killed my sister and my dad had to be transferred to a post back in the US to rescue my sister from the NHS. I'm Wiccan, personally, and find working in insurance to be the most honest job I've ever had, and the one most in line with my beliefs. Far better than working at burger joints where you're required by company policies and the law to throw food away the second it expires, but your immediate bosses will get hostile if you do because food waste hurts their bonuses, and you have par levels that are dictated by an algorithm that uses historical sales data to predict demand. But then again, I don't really do major medical or "health" insurance. So the companies I work with are only there to plug in gaps that would exist with national heathcare.
The Australian Healthcare system is the best. Basically Medicare-For-All but it's not a gold class system, that's why they still have Private Health Insurance to jump the queue (so to speak). Australia comes in as the sixth highest for life expectancy (83.94 years). Canada is 14th (82.96 years) America is 41st (79.11).
There is little point in compartmentalizing religion from politics. Worldviews inform how we understand reality, and trying to decouple worldview from politics is a fool's game. Whether you are theist or atheist, that has a powerful impact on how you understand who you are, what you are, and your relationship to all things.
I've been binge watching much of your content over the past couple of days. I'm an Agnostic Atheist, but I've long had a deep connection and fascination with Norse/Germanic deities. I can't really help what I've come to believe, but I still wanted to learn more to better understand Heathens and Paganism. For the most part, I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I agree with you on many subjects. This one, though, I'll admit I struggled with. I strongly believe in secularism - that is, that a government should not favor one religious belief over another. I'm sure I've said things like "keep your religion out of my government." I now wonder if I've been wrong for doing so. I understand your point, and if I were being honest, I'd probably have to admit that my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) have likely impacted some political opinions I have. So, I think to some extent I have to cede the argument in your favor, here, as I think it's difficult to argue otherwise. But I feel inclined to mention some caveats. I think we can all agree that governments deal with the physical world. The best tool we have at understanding the physical world is - currently - the scientific method backed by empirical evidence. If your religious beliefs disagree with that in some way and you then wish to enforce those opinions on the rest of us, I must still resist. Science, in a very real way, is the common denominator that governments ought to act on; the physical world is one thing we all share and cannot ignore. If you believe it is wrong to purchase alcohol on Sunday because you feel the day belongs to your god...I simply don't care. That's your prerogative, of course, but beliefs that only have any kind of relevance within the context of a religious belief do not belong in a secular government. If you reject climate change because it's based on science that also posits (with a vast amount of evidence) that the world is billions of years old and your religious beliefs force you to reject it...then I don't care. Our government operates in the physical world and must act accordingly. I, of course, agree that when moral questions arise within government discourse this distinction becomes more difficult as science has less to say, but I think we still must be careful. But perhaps you would still disagree? I'm not sure...but thank you for the video. If nothing else, I can say it was thought-provoking.
Im one of those who lost insurance when Obamacare came to be. I also became 100% disabled a year later when hit by a car while on the job. I rcvd a State pension that is NOT considered income as it is in a trust. It took 5 years to win my lawsuit and from $850k I rcvd $82k. Being an MVA while on the job limited me to a max of $1m. If id been not working I could have sued for $100M, as an example. The State took away my pension and made me buy it back with my settlement $. AND...even though I by law technically have $0 income I am not given any health insurance from the State or the Feds despite our current form of Obama are. Nothing is ever perfect but im not the only one who has had these type of issues. Nothing is free, ever.
I feel just like in Ocean's video where he talks about how there were no formal names for pagan religions in the past due to spirituality and their beliefs in the gods simply being a part of their daily lives, religious beliefs only become political when we attach them to political beliefs, agendas, aspects, etc. Simply believing in human rights doesn't make that stance political, that's just called being a good human being. It's when we divide our thoughts and ideas as to what constitutes human rights into "left," "centrist," and "right" ideologies (amongst all the others) that we find ourselves in political debates as to what these rights essentially are. When a group of people all share the same values and beliefs, these values and beliefs literally cease to exist in the political sphere, as those ideas and beliefs are no longer up for debate or challenged by another person or group of people. The reason religion has become so political in recent times has everything to do with the sheer amount of people who exist in this country, let alone the fact they all come from different backgrounds, cultures, heritages, cultural and religious beliefs, etc. We can't stop religion from being political, nor can we keep politics from becoming religious. Even attempting to cast religiously motivated political beliefs into the arena of morality doesn't hide the fact that our thoughts and beliefs are religiously and/or politically motivated. Now when it comes to politically motivated religious beliefs, that's a very dangerous place to travel and if you think it's not or that's somewhere you reside, you have some reflecting to do. (personal opinion, disagree with that or all I've said if you will)
I'm personally not into politics, but I can see where voting off our religion could possibly help. You have a point with the whole apolitical being political, which is why I just keep my nose out of it entirely
I'm a baby witch (read not experienced) and I'm a polytheist but I don't... know who my gods are. I know theyre THERE, but... I dont know how to learn who they are. Is that normal? And how do I get to know my gods? Thank you for your help in advance.
@@BlackReshiram That is what I had to do. You being a witch I would suggest starting with the ones who deal in magic. Try asking Hecate or one of them for guidance.
Where it comes to “separating religion and politics,” for me at least, it’s not so much a question of ignoring ideals connected with one’s own religious leanings. That’s virtually inescapable. Rather, it is about not allowing our individual political leanings to form the basis of spirituality, whether individually or collectively, and refraining from the act of forcing our own religious worldviews upon others (as you mentioned in the video).
Its really similar to this issue I've had where I was told that at work I was free to wear pride pins and express my gender, so long as it "wasn't political". I am trans. My very existence is political.
Political and religious views are both beliefs systems that can be peaceful or very volital.. this makes me think, two birds one stone, let both beliefs systems clash, use one to question the others morality. They can differ and be similar in many ways.
I can't agree with you on this one precisely because it's AMERICAN politics which is informing Heathenism online (the main research and connection for us all) and many of us Heathens AREN'T AMERICAN, nor are we interested in subscribing to your particular politics in order to worship: many of us are completely opposed to American politics and ideologies!!! So this idea that in order for me to be a Heathen I have to choose between going fully Woke/SJW or being a Neo-Nazi is ridiculous, when I'm Center-leaning, non-American, and I have a vastly different culture, economics, society, etc., that informs my life. Up until a week ago I was researching which "group" to join, but the Gods told me not to. Now I understand why. So I'm going to learn and take the best from all groups, but keep to my family practice.
I’m in Oregon. Was raised Christian, father came from a Christian home and mother came from a Catholic home. She wanted a personal relationship with Jesus and converted to Christianity because Catholics prey to Mary or saints as I’m sure many of you know. I disavowed Christianity after reading the Bible in basic training in the Army. Years later I found out I am a son of Odin and began to practice that understanding after years of personal research. My political views have never changed through any of this and I hide the fact I am a republican more than I do being a son of Odin. I dress and wear jewelry that clearly defines what I am, and in Oregon I have never had a problem with that, I have never been spit on for wearing a hammer around my neck but I have been literally spit on for wearing American flag shirts. I have been verbally assaulted in college for simply saying I’m a republican and people left class because they said being around me was an assault to them by my near presence and the instructor asked if I would leave for the benefit of the group, to which I replied “no” because I’m an not offended by their different beliefs and I welcome differences in all aspects of life and one of my closest allies is a devoted Christian because his solid foundation in his belief let’s me know he will not stumble in his endeavors. I keep being a republican hidden because I find most people that are Pagan or Heathens or polytheistic where I live are democrats and have told me to leave and I’m not welcome. This has led me to become extremely solitary in my practice and lead me on the path of what I call being Odinson. For he found the wisdom of the Runes through a sacrifice of himself to himself, and that is how I now practice as I have been shunned by any group in my area I have found for my political voting party.
im one of the atheists that just wants TRUE religious freedom the only time i ever have a problem with what some believes is if it harms some one (for example tommy mcmurtry) other then that i just want to live and be friends with people
I'm a recent convert of Norse paganism, and don't vote based on religion. I vote based on logic. I am also an independent conservative and support Donald Trump's reelection.
I'm an atheist. When I was Christian I would say things "while church and state should be separated we must also recognize you can't take the influence of religion away from the state" I still stand by that. Even if you try to vote without your religion you are still going vote with your religion (specifically your beliefs not your "peers")
Living is political, so voting by your beliefs is inevitable. The problems come with lawmakers pass laws based on faith, rather than the common good, as you pointed out.
My understanding of the first amendment has long been that our own personal faiths of both citizens and lawmakers are free to influence the law but the law itself cannot give preference to one religion or another.
I’m one of those atheists that has trouble separating the ideas of integrating one’s religion with one’s politics, and legislating the tenets of one’s religion into the law of the land. I’m also not always the best at understanding nuance. But I’m also trying to learn, and, y’know, not be an asshat. So, thank you for pointing out the differences between the two. It’s given me some things to ponder.
*HERES HOW BERNIE CAN STILL WIN*
THE MATH CHECKS OUT
BUT SERIOUSLY PLEASE THOUGH
Bernie? That guy has sold out repeatedly.
@@royhurley7572 r/whoosh
@@royhurley7572 you are exactly right. Sanders is an establishment clown.
My issue with religion in politics is when they try to basically say, "I *demand* that all of you behave in the way my religion says we should behave!" and then responds to us pointing out "but we don't believe that, so no" with *"STOP OPPRESSING ME!!!"*
Thats far more of a problem with hardcore believers in an omnigod than anyone else. I'm sure mostly it comes from a good place. "If we make gay marriage illegal the gays can't go to hell because they can't get married"
The problem is when you are that fundamentalist you forget others exist and you need to take into account their views as well.
When was the last time a politician demanded that people behave according to their religion? Seriously?
@@jamesgordley5000 My comment was more about the religious fanaticism among voters pushing specific agendas with minority support* at politicians and reacting to people pointing out that not everyone has the same beliefs by pretending to be oppressed when all that's actually happening is someone with different beliefs is saying they want to live their own lives and not be governed by the dictates of others.
*citations for minority opinions:
Abortion:
www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions
news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
Gay marriage:
www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/support-gay-marriage-reaches-all-time-high-survey-finds-n1244143
news.gallup.com/poll/311672/support-sex-marriage-matches-record-high.aspx
Comprehensive sex ed:
siecus.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/On-Our-Side-Public-Support-for-Sex-Ed-2018-Final.pdf
news.gallup.com/poll/15166/teens-sex-education-abstinenceonly-safesex-approach.aspx
That said, the politicians often have at least enough brains (or a smart enough coordinator or whatever) to avoid drawing the line between their religious beliefs and their policies themselves, instead laying out their claim to be religious and their siding whichever way on whatever issue and letting the voters draw the connection, because otherwise the 1st Amendment might cause problems.
@@jamesgordley5000 Um, every politician that wants to ban abortion, gay equality, and maintain the gender gap? Because there is no non-religious reason to want to do any of those things? And if you were being sarcastic, sorry, because it didn't come across clearly.
You are right that "Stop oppressing me" is not a good argument in that context. But, here is what is a good argument in that context: People vote to coerce others into behaving a certain way based on premises that the people being coerced disagree with all the time. That is how liberal democracy works. Whether you believe in climate change or not has no bearing on whether everyone else can or should vote to make you follow environmental laws meant to mitigate climate change. So, you not believing in someone else's religion, has no bearing on whether or not they should try to use politics to enforce their religion's rules. That is what democracy is: groups of people with mutually exclusive beliefs competing for votes to see which beliefs the rules that we all follow will be based on and therefore what rules will be adopted.
Politics isn't optional, if you don't do politics, politics does you.
Especially in Soviet Russia, I've heard
"I don't care about politics" is an illusion of the privileged. If you eat, you are into economy and politics. If you breathe, the pollution is about politics. If you work and pay your bills, politicians are in your vallet. If you pay taxes, they're there as well. If your child needs a doctor, politics is deciding if it can get one. They will decide what your kids learn (or are forbidden from knowing) in school. "I don't care about politics" doesn't mean anything except "I have enough to eat, pay my cell phone and my Netflix, so I couldn't bother enough to care, to inform myself or to do something about my country's problems."
@@jasonGamesMaster Or in Trump's America. This is NOT a hatriot issue.
@@gaiagreen2690 same basic thing. If you missed the joke, see a tired old comedian called Jakov Smirnoff (stage name, obviously) whose claim to fame was just inverting sentences and inserting "in Soviet Union" at the front. So, in this example it would be "in Soviet Russia politics does you!". Lame but it popped into my head with the op statement. Sorry you missed it though...
@@jasonGamesMaster If you are talking about actual Soviet Union-time Russia, then yes.
In modern Russia, it's not that true (but getting closer to it). Russian political decisionmakers (many of which are of law enforcement and intelligence background and/or acting members of such structures) are not really interested in you, until you get deep into politics (i.e. participate in oppositionary manifestations, non-system parties, or, gods forbid, in so called "extremist" organisations), they suddenly find themselves very interested in using you as a device to practice policemen' baton (and other melee) skills or some extreme things RUclips don't like to be mentioned (t****ing, that is).
My veiw is essentially: it's fine (and inevitable) if your religion is political- as long as your politics aren't religious. Every aspect of ones worldview has some say in how they view politics, that's just inherent. So long as one doesn't try to make THEIR religion legislation that is imposed on others.
Great vid btw, far more eloquent then I could put it
@J. Smith But that's not a problem with our view or ideal.. That's a problem with people crossing a line they shouldn't be crossing, or being unable to recognize when to reel it in.
I'm not sure turning politics into this hotbed of religious scruples would have the effect people think it will. Sure, it will justify that there are other opinions out there to the greater majority of Christianity that is abusing this quietness. I just worry it will also alienate the more folkish religious, into greater fear for their safety; as court of public opinion doesn't take very kindly to animal sacrifice, necromancy and the darker side of things.
Oh heck, do it.. they've had far too many years of privileged entitlement, and quite urging to relinquish that control has always ended in a "we're being persecuted!!!" complex. It's not any different than the Satanists standing up for themselves. Maybe we do need this front stage and center.
Its not really religions informing, but overriding how people think in culty stuff.
As he mentioned, of course his believes play into what he politically believes. Just the thing is, everyone else hasa right to do so and politics is compromises whats good for everyone,
I meanmlk was driven by his faith, it kinda was his apeal top,being a pastor. Preaching if about political issues.
It never overrideshis critical thinking or worldly issues being caused by material conditions. That still human reasoning
What i notice is that healthy religious argumets there are because they motivate people rather than replace critical thinking.
No biblical argument should be valid in any courtroom thou
If that results in your country ceasing to bombard and destabilize my entire continent, go ahead and politicize! I will wish you the best!!
Hmm, isn't aging well considering Biden is bombing people in Syria as we speak.
@@jameslew2804 I detest Biden more than Trump, because at least with the orange man all the left criticized war crimes
@@ginomammana
The issue with electing false progressives like biden and Obama is they make the democratic voters feel like all is well and whatever we are doing overseas must be just and good intentioned (as if any bomb dropped is anything but aggression).
Honestly I'd rather have Cheeto man for another 4 years than Biden. At least then people would pay attention to whom we are bombing and why.
@@Kyle496 Except Trump bombed more in his first term than Obama's first term, and I honestly can't remember hearing criticisms levied against him for dropping those bombs? Maybe I'm mistaken, there was this whole narrative from the right that Trump was anti-war so I might have seen more of that.
@@hongo9111 If you didn't hear those criticisms, you weren't paying attention. The MOAB got a TON of airplay and was followed up with resounding critiques of Trump's higher civilian death toll.
As geralt of rivia said "Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all."
I vote on my values. Religion, or lack there of, is part of a person's values. That being said, politics still shouldn't be preached from the pulpit.
Depends, if its from truely opressed like mlk did, but never to dehumanize or preach hate at least or conservatism.
9:09 "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.." ~RUSH: "Freewill"
So glad I was not the only one who immediately thought of this line :D
Politics and religion are soft of connected by nature. The only thing I don't agree with is *FORCING* people to live under a religion. I fully believe in religious freedom! But I guess that in itself is a political take huh.
Oagans would probably have abetter awareness of climate change, so politics there again.
Also aliakais whole tribes and, their connection to the land.
As a Zoroastrian, I 100% agree. The way in which my religion is political is with the egalitarian and environmentalist nature of my religion, for example. Zarathustra! Mazdak! Khorradimin!
It's pretty political to be pagan when one's former religion (my former religion was Mormonism, regrettably; I was raised that way, it wasn't my choice) literally had manifest destiny as a cornerstone of its faith, and when living in an area that a notorious Christian Dominionist lives in.
❤
I dunno. I'm of mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I want to say, yes, of course your religious views should inform your politics because I want people to be free to express themselves and their beliefs.
On the other hand I then think that that's how we got to gay people being arrested for being gay, conversation therapy for children still be legal in the most of the country, abortion rights being under attack, ect... I'm reminded that many hold religious beliefs that I find particularly repugnant and toxic because they hurt other people and I don't want them expressing those beliefs generally, but especially politically.
Personally I had the philosophy that it was fine for religion to influence a political opinion, but that couldn't be the SOUL reason for holding that political belief. As least when it came to legislation. But even then that just leads to people coming up with ad hoc justifications for their beliefs and doesn't really change anything.
I don't know of I thing that people should let their religion shape their political beliefs. I just think we should focus on harm reduction and being inclusive (so long as that inclusion doesn't negate the harm reduction). If you're religious views push you in that direction then great, but if they don't I don't think they have any business informing law.
Here here.
So often basic humanity, empathy, and ethics are branded "politics" in discussions. It's a fantastic maneuver to excuse people from having to maintain any of them. Thank you for always being an exemplary voice, especially for our community.
I kinda is, but well choosing to ignore that is too, to a level everything is political. Love, political apearently why else being against same sex couples, food, very political. Self expression and gender, apearently political.
Yes conservatives were the ones making straight political. By selling it as default wrongly in the first place. As is shutting out alternatives publicly.
Or "We live in a society"
@jonathanheidenreich8565 well said.
Minorities such as us pagans (as well as LGBT and people of color) are expected to respect the opinions of our adversaries, even when said opinions are literally talking about eradicating us or preventing our peaceful existence.
So, my perspective as a secular humanist/atheist: many of us don't want to admit it, but alot of us hold to our atheism in an almost religious fervor. Its just that we claim to do it through "logic" and "science." Also, I have observed an.... arrogance among my peers that makes secular humanism seem like a joke. Many look down on religious or spiritual people and funny enough, we admit to voting with our secular humanism influencing our decisions
Yea. I will never understand it. But I chalk it up to latent Christianity. While I may find the idea that I would personally enter back into the theist world (although there is evidence I never actually was part of it, but that is another story) that doesn't mean that I get to tell theists what to do. I am no better than them, and I do consider myself agnostic in that science does not and actually can not answer whether there is/are/were god/gods at all. Still I see no proof that they do or at least any proof that they have agency and can affect the world, being immaterial beings and us being in a material world (queue Madonna) but again, I am no expert. And it in no way hurts me for theists to do their thing. My rule is don't proselytize to me (as in, come at me unbidden) and if you bring up the discussion, then I will not hold back from discussing my views either.
Abdication of a “political position” is a not just a political choice but a privileged one.
How do you mean?
@@Sewblon The ability to ignore the negative ramifications of political choices, is pretty much the definition of privilege. I.E. Asking for drug tests of welfare recipients but not CEO’s.
@@dscarron Sounds reasonable. But the upper classes are not less politically active than others. They are more politically active than others. The well educated are more likely to vote than other groups. The rich are more likely to join political organizations and lobby the government. So the privileged do not act like they are insulated from politics, just the opposite. Humans are loss averse creatures, we fight harder to hold onto what we have than we do to gain what we never had.
@@Sewblon Not wrong but this local election cycle 10% of eligible voters voted in my town. That's a pretty huge abdication and not that unusual.
@@dscarron But how is that relevant? were those who did vote more privileged or more marginalized than those who didn't vote? or neither?
your religious beliefs are going to play a role in your morals and your morals are going to have influence on how you vote and your political leanings. Therefore religion or lack thereof is going to inevitably affect your politics
Absolutely! I used to see the terrible influence of conservative christians in American politics as an inevitable consequence of religion "infecting" politics. Then I came to this realization that of course religion is going to affect political positions through morals, and that the problem I have with the christians isn't that they're using their religious morality to influence politics but rather just that their religious morals are shitty morals.
@@the-nick-of-time Well said!
@@the-nick-of-time Can you elaborate on which Christian morals are shitty morals?
I'm a Celtic Recon who identifies with plenty of Christian morality.
@@pipperoni3636 The attempts to strip rights from women is a common complaint. I'm not necessarily talking about reproductive rights or modern issues, but even old stuff like "They must be housewives, no options!" from the 1950s. Demonization of other religions that aren't Christianity which puts followers of those religions in harm's way for fanatics. Or when the Aids crisis happened, and some politicians dragged their feet on trying to help because some people thought it was an act of God. A lot of lives were lost on that one. Christians aren't evil; toxic ideas just need to questioned for all beliefs.
@@hope-cat4894 In a modern context, I don't believe any women's rights are being stripped- abortion is a humanitarian crisis infringing on the child's right to life.
I believe some religions should be criticised for good reason, if your "prophet" was a paedophile I believe it is well deserved- ofcourse not everyone is sensible and religious fanaticism should be condemned.
Also the suffragettes came about because of menstrual and contraceptive technologies, it wasn't Christians holding women back.
As a Christian with a deep respect for the spiritual life of my pre-Christian ancestors, and who has done deep explorations of Christian history and theology, I love how you have expressed this thought. I've been a leftist of some variety for my entire adult life, but it was my understanding of my faith and the ethics that it proposed that led me to that political belief. Christianity, from its earliest days, proposed a morality based on the intrinsic value of ALL people, and acting based on empathy and service to others (though I freely acknowledge that the religion as a whole has done a dismal job of actually behaving that way over the centuries). My issue has never been that Christians vote their faith; my issue has been that Christians don't understand their faith, and so are easily led to act (and vote) in wildly hypocritical ways.
Love and respect, brother. I'll offer prayers for you, and I ask you to do the same for me, by whatever fashion you do.
Yes exactly this! There are so many people who wield the cross as an argument for their selfishness and bigotry, not knowing (or caring) that Christ as he is presented in the bible would absolutely disagree with everything they were saying. They don't seem to even have a basic understanding of the code that they claim to live by.
As a Mazdakite Zoroastrian, I support you, co-worker, and I respect your Saoshyant.
My view on the matter is (currently) that it's good for me to have my religious views inform my politics, but I do not want to make politics into my religion. I've seen too many "why my religion is political" essays turn into partisan ultimatums, and it's off-putting. To the point that the title of this video made me a bit nervous, but thankfully my fears were unfounded. I like this video.
Looking back I’m seeing that I’ve held many views based on my religion for quite some time. I’ve always been someone who values personal freedoms, small government, and embracing more rural living, and this comes from so much of what I see in Heathenry
I think I had the opposite experience, being that my values/politics affected my faith
I'm not clear how to phrase this but I think it's something like; religion in politics is fine, religion in government is not.
I’ll admit I first thought well this is the first step of going down the rabbit hole, then without realizing it I had watched 80% of the video without realizing it and I was nodding along...so yes I support your religious practice as political, and yes I support everyone who has a political view with there religion, and just as you say, do no harm to others, Or was that Wicca... ( lol)
Maaaannnn I was here to escape politics and religion.
I just ran and bookmarked that havamal verse, that's some good shit.
My reasoning is twofold:
- Your religion is what you believe, voting ought to fall in line with what you believe.
- If you don't, there are other people who will. And as we've seen in recent times, that leaves you in a reactionary position, without initiative.
I’ve been watching a lot of your videos recently and I have to say I love how you take topics that initially make me go “hmmmmm I dunno about that” and then make me realize my perception is limited and there is always a better way, such that the topic changes meaning to me. Thank you!
This video was super well done! Thanks for such a great take on this issue, Ocean. I am grateful to have someone like you as a vocal and visible pagan on youtube.
Absolutely agree - Your religion informs your politics. You should not use your politics to force a religion, or lack thereof, on others.
As one of those Episcopalians, I've been really thinking about this subject a lot. This video gave me a lot to think about. Part of me Is very hardline in favor for a purely secular government, and my fundamentalist upbringing has poisoned the idea of faith and politics being connected in my mind. And yet...there's the cognitive dissonance. Because when I see the many fights against injustice, I see the God of my religion turning tables raising cane like the prophets of old in the streets. I see the Spirit in MLK when I watch his old videos and sermins. So I'm confused. Maybe the dividing line is not whether you let your faith influence your politics (as few of us can compartmentalize our beliefs so well) but rather, are you trying to legislate your particular faith on others.
I dunno. Interesting questions.
Now that is an interesting thought worth contemplating. Thank you!
As a former 2015 style youtube atheist, this video is getting me to shift some perspectives I haven't even considered re-evaluating since my taking up the polytheist mantle.
Yes, as a former New Atheist turned Zoroastrian socialist, I see this change too.
Going through your backlog again because never can get the information enough, and this just hits so hard
I have a close friend that is a Free Mason and I have never hidden my Paganism around him. One of the reason we have become such close friends is our shared value system and respect for the right of people to have a religious or spiritual path of their choosing. If people could simply respect one another, we might have a chance as a society to be more tolerant. Unfortunately, most political tactics are aimed at dividing us a nation. It is difficult for most people to see past these tactics and so they adopt an "us vs them" attitude. They think they are right in blaming some group that does not include themselves for all of our country's problems. This exactly what political parties want. If we are all blaming one another, we will never unite and force our political representatives to be held accountable. Pardon the rant. This problem is as old as time and is exemplified in all cultures. Somehow, we need to become a voice for tolerance and acceptance. What you have suggested in your video is a great start. Amazing content!
Entering polytheism in general showed me a different way of thinking. Even though I have huge gaps in my knowledge, I understand a lot of the philosophy and having converted in my teens, while certain, very important, areas in my brain were developing, completely changed how I would have made personal and political decisions if I converted later on.
I'm really enjoying your videos, Ocean. This is exactly what I'm been looking for. Your insights are so valuable. I had been following another RUclipsr until mid-ish 2020 (take a guess who...) and now that I've come across your content, as well as Wolf and Wind in the Worldtree, I am able to see how absurdly shallow that other creator's content is.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Take my sub.
This was a good video. Every time I watch your content, your calm and the way you break these topics down impresses me.
I have two questions though:
1) How to we keep the good and chuck the bad? For example, I have had several political arguments with my parents, and when I've got them backed into a corner where logically, they should denounce something Trump has done, or change their mind on supporting him, they pull out the bible and use the bible to justify their supporting Trump. How do we keep people like Steven Anderson out of government while promoting people like MLK to be in government without setting a double standard is basically what I'm asking.
2) how can we achieve pluralism with Christianity trying to get a monopoly on the government, and with the "separation of church and state" being a thing on everyone's lips when this topic comes up?
@J. Smith yes, because an atheist in a polytheist's comment section asking about how we could achieve pluralism is definitely trying to forcibly change peoples' minds instead of allowing people to "live and let live". Yeah, my motivation is definitely to forcibly control Ocean and make him an atheist. Mhm. Yup. You got me. I just want to control everybody so that they think just like me.
/s
Mlk did not argument with biblical verses.
His arguments come from class analysis, observations, and history. He gave plenty reasons people can look up to and sasly still are observable as why.
He was a religious man making material arguments. That still hold up sadly.
Which cant be said from anderson.
How , listen to the validity of the arguments based on the material reality. And humanism. And human right but then the us never signed them. And respect of everyone, thats not shown harmful. Hatespeech, not ok.
I can sum up my political and religious beliefs in 4 words: many gods, no masters.
As quite political former Eastern Orthodox Christian, who is now somewhere in a grey zone of straight atheism, ancestor reverence [[libations for the dead]], Buddhism and Taoism. I clearly see your point, as a Christian I did try to compartmentalize my faith and my left leaning politics (and even my science lol). It became too much and my faith ended up getting the axe after a lot of “soul searching”. This grey area is odd feeling, but I think it’s just because I loosened some cultural (and political) bonds that had been in place since my birth. I have much respect for the Heathen community, cheers!
Nick Offerman has a good bit in his book "Paddle Your Own Canoe" about this topic
As a Celtic Polytheist, I absolutely agree that being pagan is political by its self. and yes I will vote in accordance with my beliefs also. And I would be willing to bet that we agree far more often than not.
Wait religion is a political statement?..i never knew...its almost like every social interactions between people is political and this includes the gods. I mean its not like the gods are intertwined in nature its self or anything...
(Sarcasm font)
Piparskeggr here, have been around "organized" Heathenry for about 30 years. I chuckled when you mentioned that Recons have some of the biggest Personalities...non-Recon has their share, too. Seen quite a few self destruct on both sides of that "aisle."
I think It's an inescapable fact that religion and politics influence each other and our personal values in a reciprocal way. A simple diagram:
Religion↔️Personal values↔️Politics
Science of the day? Like men getting pregnant?
The idea that pagan religion should be accessible or accepting of all seems incoherent, even if one points solely to the strictures surrounding initiatory rites observed and organized specifically to explicate the esoteric meanings of myths or rituals to the few and confer upon them a specialized knowledge and place in the world. I don't quite understand the means through which you get from point A to point B, unless you're approaching the support of Bernie from the point of view of becoming a national democratic socialist country along the lines of modern Britain, and even then it would seem to run counter to the idea of being a 'heathen,' 'pagan,' etc.
Much like Islam, the Indo-European paganisms have their political structure by and large baked into the cake, at least insofar as they remain in an ascendant trajectory and not a degenerating or decadent one, (if indulging in something akin to a Spenglerian historical perspective.) This is evident in the structuring of the classes specific to caste systems spread throughout the Indo-European world, and evidenced through the gradual decadence and degeneration of social order through the aging of civilizations as varied as the Japanese and some Mesoamerican societies including the Maya. The Norse from whom you draw at least some portion of your belief system have a myth concerning the origin of the castes as created through the intervention of Heimdallr who sleeps between the spouses of three distinct couples with variant qualities, amongst the noble giving birth to one named King or Princely, said to rival or surpass Odin in runecraft, and whom the eagle teaches to turn his bow away from the chase and towards the hunting of his fellow men, uniting beauty, esoteric knowledge, and the martial discipline into the forebear of a bloodline through which all legitimate authority is grounded, even in the Christian kings of the Anglo-Saxons.
Baron Julius Evola, whose name is, I'm sure, mud among some who are likely to see this, (by and large due to misrepresentations of his being a supporter of Fascism or the Third Reich, a reading of any of his works will dispel,) describes in Revolt Against the Modern World the cyclical unfolding of civilizations akin to this as the gradual slip of rulership through the Vedic castes, from the priestly Brahmins which he ascribes the place of to an Imperial figure who is at once a martial figure and the pontifex maximus, the builder of the bridge between the world of becoming and the real world of being, on down to the assertion of authority in the military Kshatriyas, and so on with the rise of merchant-princes who are afforded to buy their authority through Plutocracy until eventually the plebiscite assert themselves and put the proverbial nail in the coffin. He likens this to Hesiod's descriptions of the falling ages of man, likened each to a metal, the next more base than the last, utilizing the Hindu configuration of the present age as that belonging to a demon, the Kali-Yuga, the age of Kali.
To Evola, there seems through tracing the Indo-European world of tradition by and large one true authority on earth, and it exists solely in a Ghibelline-style Priest-King who is at once a warrior and a priest, who gives as much life to the gods as they give him. It should be plain to see the threads of Plato's Republic that are woven into this Indo-European worldview, and it, just as the Roman 'Republic' of rule by a hereditary Patrician caste or the Grecian 'Democracy' of rule by vote of Landed Elites and slaveowners, has little in common with any political movement or state entity since the Hapsburg abdication of the title of Holy Roman Emperor and the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire .
One shouldn't say either that paganisms are all-welcoming either in their practices of safely enfolding all deities nor of not imposing their own on others. One need look no further than the Roman subjugation of the zealots or persecution of Christians for the refusal to participate in sacrificial rites in obeisances to the Emperor, nor at their setting up of a statue to Jove in the area of the Second Temple, the Book of David's Abomination of Desolation by some biblical scholars' reckoning. In our own time there are nigh constant struggles ongoing between various Hindu nationalist groups and those belonging to myriads of faiths that paint the subcontinent in its divine motley. One can also point to, though less stringently due to lack of explicitly confirming text, the imposition of rites of central Mexican deities onto the westerly Maya through the figure of the jaguar divinity of the Night Sun of El Zotz and others, some of which included the importation of ritual sacrifice of children and infants to flames. This I mention not even in specific condemnation, but merely to point to this as being far from a problem Sola Roma.
I don't wish to diminish someone's beliefs, as I consider myself a Christian, though my own philosophical positions in regard to such are largely influenced by men like Guenon, Evola, and other Perennialists. I'll say, though, that pointing to and identifying with a tradition shouldn't be a fashion game of favouring the appearance of the Futhark or Grecian alphabet, or preferring to have a statue of Isis holding Horus over one of Mary and the infant Christ. I'm not specifically indicting you as having done this or its brother sins, it simply seems to me a precarious position to attempt to bring the baggage of the modern world backwards into these traditions which, due to their being long-dormant, are ill equipped to gel with them, particularly with what seems to be a general left-leaning political character to your views. Again for absolute clarity; I'm not attacking your political views, but it seems to one who is widely read on the subject and the interplay of religion and politics to be a precarious position.
Anyway there's the novella; if you actually read it; thanks.
I really needed to hear this. Thank you.
There's a difference between religious convictions influencing the moral fiber that affects your political stance and using politics to enforce your religious opinions on others. When Christians oppose LGBTQ+ rights, or abortion, they do it on a purely religious basis. If the only reason you can think of to justify your position is to appeal to your religious beliefs, that does not belong in politics. If, say, your religion teaches you to love others, and that is your motivation for opposing something like slavery, that's not religion becoming political. You have reasons besides your religious beliefs to be against slavery. Namely, empathy for fellow man. Your empathy may be rooted in your religion, which shapes the way you see the world around you, but that empathy itself is not a religious concept.
THIS
I'm of the opinion that politics is an unavoidable part of life. Trying to keep spirituality or religion apolitical is a political stance, and one that doesn't make much sense for contemporary pagans of any path or tradition.
Great video as usual!
I think everything is political,
Theres laws and regulations on everything.
Like food, speed limit, crime and even religion
I think all religion is political, even being atheist is political
Politically speaking I heavily believe in personal freedoms, what you subject yourself to is your business up until the point that impedes others lives. To that point, I don't think raising a child in a single religion is fair either. It's our responsibility to make sure that future generations can make informed decisions. I think that is probably why people are so aggressive towards religions to begin with, belief that whatever 'truth' they find supercedes other people's individual beliefs and experiences. Admittedly, I was the same way in highschool, despite having gnostic experiences, I always held a detached reaction to them and shutdown on others gnostic experiences as well.
Your political view can be influenced by your beliefs but government should be kept seperate from religion.
i didnt know i could agree with someone as much as this.
Let's get rid of the Federal Reserve, hand it over to Saturn!
Ocean, Everything is political . But I loved Hitchens quip, "it was said politics is local, Sarah Palin proves, politics is yokel" and that was early on? 👍🏿👍👍🏾👏🏽👏💝☮️🎃😷🐝
I remember feeling bad for holding my political views as a lot of it is based on being a heathen and how I experience and view the gods and ancestors. Of course what cemented them was statistics and science. I'm glad you did this video cause it gives an interesting perspective on the issue.
I'm personally a libertarian. Ones rights only end where another's rights begin. The only political statement i could make connecting my religion to politics is the idea that the second amendment is supported in the havamal
I like how so many people are misspelling Lagens lol.
Great video, thank you.
I completely agree with the statement that being Heathen itself is political
Over time I have grown to see the value in keeping my views to myself in emulation of the Odinic archetype.
This is such a great video. Thanks you so much for sharing your thoughts and opinions. When I converted from Christianity it brought into question many of my own political views. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.
Socially I'm left leaning libertarian. Economically I lean more conservative. I do this because when I look at, for example, immigrants who would risk life and limb to come here it isn't because the want what they left behind. It's because they strive for the mere opportunity to work hard and be rewarded for it. And to give back to the community. Basically be a productive member of society. Socialized aspects of our government are a pipe dream. Even Bernie Sanders flip-flopped once he became a millionaire. To me, being a pagan is a live and let live lifestyle but it also means calling out bullshit when you see it.
I honestly think we should keep our religion out of politics. You make some great points for your stance. But, I’d like to leave my religion in my head.
my problem with pluralism is that it gives a voice to people who use their religion in bad faith to abuse others. secularism gives no individual any special religious rights over another.
I agree with your arguments completely, although, like you, I didn’t see it this way for most of my life. I’ve had a fundamental shift in perspective, and to me, taking an active stance against injustice is a crucial aspect of what it means to be a good person. My faith is important to me and helps guide me to make the best decisions I can. There’s no way to separate these two. Pluralism is a very important perspective to have.
interesting take.
I think I would argue that it is our personal politics that influence our religion, but our religious affiliation feeds back to influence our personal politics.
In that sense it is often the case that people tend to view their personal values as stemming from their religion, and make the mistake of ascribing those values to that religion exclusively, and this is where the danger lies. This is why Americans won't vote for an atheist - because they assume that because an atheist denies their God, they must also by necessity deny their values - charity, loving they neighbour etc.
The meaning of secularism is to look at shared values, rather than shared religious narrative, recognising that different religions can have the same views about human morality, and ignoring which God has supposedly ascribed that morality.
The call to 'keep religion out of politics', as I understand it, is similar to saying don't vote for the party, vote for the policy. There are so many Americans who wield the party system like religion - to the extent that they can't comprehend that the Democrat party of 60 years ago is not the Democrat party of today - that the modern Republican Party is not the party of Honest Abe anymore (if it really ever was).
To be a pluralist society, you need a base of secularism. To make an analogy - pluralism is the states, secularism allows those states to be a federation.
Wow, really enjoyed this
My mom has severe depression. I mean like electro therapy end of the line shit. Anyway she finally found a depression medicine that works but the insurance company refused to pay for the dose that’s worked. If she were to pay out of pocket it would be half her income. The American healthcare system sucks. Right now she and my grandparents are in the process of trying to sue the insurance
As someone interested in various religions as an observer and passive practitioner (experiencing certain events or customs as a means of understanding the emotions/significance behind them, i.e. donation and prayer at a Shinto temple (I know this isn't the most significant thing, but it's the only one I could think of, sorry!)), seeing an explanation of and expression of other beliefs through political institutions (not to mention the citation of texts I was otherwise unfamiliar with) is equal parts entertaining and fascinating. My great-aunt and uncle are neo-pagan (I'm uncertain of what sect, if any specific. I know they commonly hold personal celebrations/rituals for the various dates on the Wheel of the Year, and while my uncle accepted a King's Chain I bought him as a birthday present, I still don't have anything specific), so this does have some personal significance for me, at least as a means of grower closer to family that's halfway across the continent. Furthermore, if the idea of "passive practice" is in any way disrespectful to you or anyone else beliefs, PLEASE, do not hesitate to let me know. My understanding of the world should never come at the cost of sanctity; that, and it just sucks to feel bad about wronging people.
Life is politics. The important thing is to do what you mentioned towards the beginning, evaluate your political views every so often, just like you do with everything else that is important in your life such as education, employment and finances, romance and sex, etc.
Hey, look! I win the longass run on sentence award!
Not everything is political and we really shouldn't force a political stance out of people if they do not want it
Just jumping in as a new insurance agent (mostly life, accident, disability, etc), I do think some level of public heath insurance is a must, however most places with nationalized Healthcare due end up still needing a private alternative, which should still be available for people who can and still want cheap underwritten heathcare. And I feel if you can get that kind of coverage (which is usually just getting it when you're younger and keeping it), you shouldn't have to pay into the national heathcare in your taxes. You can get heath insurance without getting it from your job, and just because you got it from your job doesn't mean you're screwed. COBRA goes into effect when you leave a job you get benefits from, and it's easy to find a job where you will be eligible for coverage through them within the 18 months COBRA grants you. Supplemental stuff like I do, when not part of a group plan, is portable and cheap. You can get it from your job, you can get it from your home/auto insurance company in a lot of cases, and you can take it almost anywhere within the US. Getting it from your job doesn't mean you can't pay for it on your own for as long as you want at your next job, in fact carriers like to know when you leave your job so they can keep doing business with you. And most of the supplemental side of things are improvements on public insurance. Buying your own disability policy covers you in addition to what social security can do. An annuity, 401k, or IRA adds to what you'd get from your tax funded pension, and in some cases can be borrowed against, which can't be done with your social security. Life insurance is really not something that can be tax funded, there are too many options as to what would work best for a person. Buying a whole life policy at 19 and keeping it your entire life is ideal, but even as cheap as it would be to start that young, you might be trying to save money to get your life started and really pinching pennies. Maybe a couple years later you might be in a position to go for it, maybe it's better at that time to just get term life for a few bucks a pay period and revisit the issue after getting a promotion or two. Cancer and critical illness insurance are focused on getting you to specialized facilities, covering your travel expenses and helping your family get settled nearby as much as it is concerns paying your bills. That's the sort of thing that otherwise can only be handled by private charities. And of course hospital indemnity is exactly what an NHS is good for.
Probably the best pagan argument for private insurance existing at least as an option, is medical autonomy, the right to decide your treatment and elect experimental producers when NHS hospitals might have given up on you or forced treatment plans you don't like or trust on you. When my dad was stationed in the UK and my older sister was just a baby they wouldn't let my parents use a normal sleep apnea machine on her, and forced them to use a motion sensitive mat as a breathe monitor, which was defective and mistakenly registered ever little movement as a sign of good breathing. It almost killed my sister and my dad had to be transferred to a post back in the US to rescue my sister from the NHS.
I'm Wiccan, personally, and find working in insurance to be the most honest job I've ever had, and the one most in line with my beliefs. Far better than working at burger joints where you're required by company policies and the law to throw food away the second it expires, but your immediate bosses will get hostile if you do because food waste hurts their bonuses, and you have par levels that are dictated by an algorithm that uses historical sales data to predict demand.
But then again, I don't really do major medical or "health" insurance. So the companies I work with are only there to plug in gaps that would exist with national heathcare.
The Australian Healthcare system is the best. Basically Medicare-For-All but it's not a gold class system, that's why they still have Private Health Insurance to jump the queue (so to speak). Australia comes in as the sixth highest for life expectancy (83.94 years). Canada is 14th (82.96 years) America is 41st (79.11).
There is little point in compartmentalizing religion from politics. Worldviews inform how we understand reality, and trying to decouple worldview from politics is a fool's game.
Whether you are theist or atheist, that has a powerful impact on how you understand who you are, what you are, and your relationship to all things.
All you need to have is common sense.......that which...most don’t have!
I've been binge watching much of your content over the past couple of days. I'm an Agnostic Atheist, but I've long had a deep connection and fascination with Norse/Germanic deities. I can't really help what I've come to believe, but I still wanted to learn more to better understand Heathens and Paganism. For the most part, I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I agree with you on many subjects. This one, though, I'll admit I struggled with.
I strongly believe in secularism - that is, that a government should not favor one religious belief over another. I'm sure I've said things like "keep your religion out of my government." I now wonder if I've been wrong for doing so. I understand your point, and if I were being honest, I'd probably have to admit that my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) have likely impacted some political opinions I have. So, I think to some extent I have to cede the argument in your favor, here, as I think it's difficult to argue otherwise. But I feel inclined to mention some caveats. I think we can all agree that governments deal with the physical world. The best tool we have at understanding the physical world is - currently - the scientific method backed by empirical evidence. If your religious beliefs disagree with that in some way and you then wish to enforce those opinions on the rest of us, I must still resist. Science, in a very real way, is the common denominator that governments ought to act on; the physical world is one thing we all share and cannot ignore.
If you believe it is wrong to purchase alcohol on Sunday because you feel the day belongs to your god...I simply don't care. That's your prerogative, of course, but beliefs that only have any kind of relevance within the context of a religious belief do not belong in a secular government. If you reject climate change because it's based on science that also posits (with a vast amount of evidence) that the world is billions of years old and your religious beliefs force you to reject it...then I don't care. Our government operates in the physical world and must act accordingly. I, of course, agree that when moral questions arise within government discourse this distinction becomes more difficult as science has less to say, but I think we still must be careful.
But perhaps you would still disagree? I'm not sure...but thank you for the video. If nothing else, I can say it was thought-provoking.
Im one of those who lost insurance when Obamacare came to be. I also became 100% disabled a year later when hit by a car while on the job. I rcvd a State pension that is NOT considered income as it is in a trust. It took 5 years to win my lawsuit and from $850k I rcvd $82k. Being an MVA while on the job limited me to a max of $1m. If id been not working I could have sued for $100M, as an example. The State took away my pension and made me buy it back with my settlement $. AND...even though I by law technically have $0 income I am not given any health insurance from the State or the Feds despite our current form of Obama are. Nothing is ever perfect but im not the only one who has had these type of issues. Nothing is free, ever.
I feel just like in Ocean's video where he talks about how there were no formal names for pagan religions in the past due to spirituality and their beliefs in the gods simply being a part of their daily lives, religious beliefs only become political when we attach them to political beliefs, agendas, aspects, etc. Simply believing in human rights doesn't make that stance political, that's just called being a good human being. It's when we divide our thoughts and ideas as to what constitutes human rights into "left," "centrist," and "right" ideologies (amongst all the others) that we find ourselves in political debates as to what these rights essentially are. When a group of people all share the same values and beliefs, these values and beliefs literally cease to exist in the political sphere, as those ideas and beliefs are no longer up for debate or challenged by another person or group of people. The reason religion has become so political in recent times has everything to do with the sheer amount of people who exist in this country, let alone the fact they all come from different backgrounds, cultures, heritages, cultural and religious beliefs, etc. We can't stop religion from being political, nor can we keep politics from becoming religious. Even attempting to cast religiously motivated political beliefs into the arena of morality doesn't hide the fact that our thoughts and beliefs are religiously and/or politically motivated. Now when it comes to politically motivated religious beliefs, that's a very dangerous place to travel and if you think it's not or that's somewhere you reside, you have some reflecting to do. (personal opinion, disagree with that or all I've said if you will)
I think its cool that you're from Georgia too.
I'm personally not into politics, but I can see where voting off our religion could possibly help. You have a point with the whole apolitical being political, which is why I just keep my nose out of it entirely
Religion and politics do not mix! BUT, they are bound together by a unbreakable bond. As long as there is a 'opinion' there will be arguments.
I'm a baby witch (read not experienced) and I'm a polytheist but I don't... know who my gods are. I know theyre THERE, but... I dont know how to learn who they are. Is that normal? And how do I get to know my gods? Thank you for your help in advance.
Have you found out which gods yet?
@@JohnSmith-uw9or sadly, not really. but thats okay, ill do things in my own pace.
@@BlackReshiram That is what I had to do. You being a witch I would suggest starting with the ones who deal in magic. Try asking Hecate or one of them for guidance.
@@JohnSmith-uw9or That's a good idea. Thank you for the advice, I'll try it out.
@@BlackReshiram Your welcome. As a follower of Hades I will tell you if its him the sign will be kind of random on timing.
Where it comes to “separating religion and politics,” for me at least, it’s not so much a question of ignoring ideals connected with one’s own religious leanings. That’s virtually inescapable.
Rather, it is about not allowing our individual political leanings to form the basis of spirituality, whether individually or collectively, and refraining from the act of forcing our own religious worldviews upon others (as you mentioned in the video).
Religious politics? *Laughs in Rome*
**laughs in ancient Egypt**
You are right about medical insurance, but if you think about it, what problem has government ever solved to our satisfaction?
Its really similar to this issue I've had where I was told that at work I was free to wear pride pins and express my gender, so long as it "wasn't political". I am trans. My very existence is political.
Political and religious views are both beliefs systems that can be peaceful or very volital.. this makes me think, two birds one stone, let both beliefs systems clash, use one to question the others morality. They can differ and be similar in many ways.
Ill vote for whoever i think is fit to be president...i havent voted in the last 2 elections because foreseeable outcome of it only being Red vs Blue
I can't agree with you on this one precisely because it's AMERICAN politics which is informing Heathenism online (the main research and connection for us all) and many of us Heathens AREN'T AMERICAN, nor are we interested in subscribing to your particular politics in order to worship: many of us are completely opposed to American politics and ideologies!!! So this idea that in order for me to be a Heathen I have to choose between going fully Woke/SJW or being a Neo-Nazi is ridiculous, when I'm Center-leaning, non-American, and I have a vastly different culture, economics, society, etc., that informs my life. Up until a week ago I was researching which "group" to join, but the Gods told me not to. Now I understand why. So I'm going to learn and take the best from all groups, but keep to my family practice.
I’m in Oregon. Was raised Christian, father came from a Christian home and mother came from a Catholic home. She wanted a personal relationship with Jesus and converted to Christianity because Catholics prey to Mary or saints as I’m sure many of you know. I disavowed Christianity after reading the Bible in basic training in the Army. Years later I found out I am a son of Odin and began to practice that understanding after years of personal research. My political views have never changed through any of this and I hide the fact I am a republican more than I do being a son of Odin. I dress and wear jewelry that clearly defines what I am, and in Oregon I have never had a problem with that, I have never been spit on for wearing a hammer around my neck but I have been literally spit on for wearing American flag shirts. I have been verbally assaulted in college for simply saying I’m a republican and people left class because they said being around me was an assault to them by my near presence and the instructor asked if I would leave for the benefit of the group, to which I replied “no” because I’m an not offended by their different beliefs and I welcome differences in all aspects of life and one of my closest allies is a devoted Christian because his solid foundation in his belief let’s me know he will not stumble in his endeavors. I keep being a republican hidden because I find most people that are Pagan or Heathens or polytheistic where I live are democrats and have told me to leave and I’m not welcome. This has led me to become extremely solitary in my practice and lead me on the path of what I call being Odinson. For he found the wisdom of the Runes through a sacrifice of himself to himself, and that is how I now practice as I have been shunned by any group in my area I have found for my political voting party.
I feel like also people play that purest vs Centris crap and it’s usually because people look at stuff a different way.
I’m very much struggling with access to healthcare since I was fired two years ago when I was on medical leave.
im one of the atheists that just wants TRUE religious freedom the only time i ever have a problem with what some believes is if it harms some one (for example tommy mcmurtry) other then that i just want to live and be friends with people
While I disagree with your political values, I do agree that all religions should be based in you politics, and that they should be accepted
I'm a recent convert of Norse paganism, and don't vote based on religion. I vote based on logic. I am also an independent conservative and support Donald Trump's reelection.
Dude your political journey sounds a lot like mine
The more I see in politics, the more I wont budge on my conservative ways.
I love your channel
I'm an atheist. When I was Christian I would say things "while church and state should be separated we must also recognize you can't take the influence of religion away from the state" I still stand by that. Even if you try to vote without your religion you are still going vote with your religion (specifically your beliefs not your "peers")
Living is political, so voting by your beliefs is inevitable. The problems come with lawmakers pass laws based on faith, rather than the common good, as you pointed out.
My understanding of the first amendment has long been that our own personal faiths of both citizens and lawmakers are free to influence the law but the law itself cannot give preference to one religion or another.
I’m one of those atheists that has trouble separating the ideas of integrating one’s religion with one’s politics, and legislating the tenets of one’s religion into the law of the land. I’m also not always the best at understanding nuance. But I’m also trying to learn, and, y’know, not be an asshat. So, thank you for pointing out the differences between the two. It’s given me some things to ponder.