Well deserved appreciation is due to your brave attempt to introduce a modern approach to the ancient practice of leather and felt pads for the saxophone. Not intended in the slightest as any sort of disapprobation, but some honest and well meaning comment might serve a useful purpose towards betterment . The pad noise is truly excessive as is the difference in feel. Pad noise could be eliminated totally by the use of a more conventional thickness of an appropriate duro felt. This is precluded by the limited distance or height between the underside of the cup and the edge of the tone hole due to the thickness of the magnet. Saxophone pads have been the object of my intense and almost continuous research for as long as I can remember. There can be only one and only one solution to this apparently ridiculously simple and ordinary problem. And this involves the engagement of polymer chemists developing a material exclusively suited for the use as pad material. The most serious the most intense, the most expensive research by hobbyists, saxophonists, instrument manufacturers and the interested must come to naught as there does not exist presently any material appropriate as pad material either for the sealing element or the back up element. A more pragmatic approach would remove the main bother by the removal of old pads and installation of new pads on an instrument which is in otherwise perfect playing condition. The use of thin neodymium magnets to hold the conventional pad in place would to a great extent remove the necessity for replacing existing pad design and materials by more modern and presently non available materials. Some slight modification would of course be required to render this method workable such as the removal of the resonator and cementing of the magnet its place.While it would not remove the requirement for perfect alignment of pad with respect to tone hole, tone hole leveling, pad seating, etc, it would at least make the removal of dysfunctional pads and the installation of fresh pads not as much of a bother resulting from the complete disassembly of the instrument or at least one stack to replace just one pad.This method provides a great plus to the service person and retains the sound and feel of the ancient pad system so beloved by most or all saxophonists.
Thank you for your detailed reply. The difficulty faced by attempts to gain more widespread acceptance is that they required an especially built tone hole pad system or special sealing material. The Codera system, from the illustrations available, used a thin sealing ring which seems to have been cast into its retaining groove. Do you know what this sealing ring material was? Or can you advise me as to how I may get to know of this material from information which might have been published and made public/ EVA has proved satisfactory for clarinet pads and are available commercially . Have you considered this material for your system? EVA is used as a substitute for neoprene and is more durable and is ridiculously inexpensive. Do you know the sealing disc used in the Toptone design? I have a British made Boosey and Hawkes flute fitted with synthetic material pads. This flute has been in continuous studio use for some twelve years and pads are as good as new. I had requested information from B and H as to their pad material but my many letters did not yield even an acknowledgment . Perhaps this material would suit your system and as the material was made in quantity and possibly still it you would not need an especially produced material. I hope you might be able to answer my queries and thank you for your help.
Every attempt to remove for ever the messy situation of cementing pads into cups must be given the utmost appreciation and encouragement. This new magnetic system is indeed elegant. What some professionals might not like is the clapping sound produced as the pad closes. This could be remedied by the choice of an appropriate sealing synthetic elastomer. I had tried out the system but found that it could not be used on my tenor due to the very restricted space available between the pad sealing surface and the cup surface. The situation was set right by replicating the classic Buescher snap on system but using a magnet in place of the split resonator. This magnet is 6mm in dia and 4 mm thick and fits absolutely in the pad thickness which is of course 4mm. The resonator could be a plastic disc or a metal disc to which the magnet is cemented using two component epoxy.The pad back up disc is of fiber glass of thickness 1.25mm. This removes the mess of pad cementing. Incidentally it is indeed tragic that the Bueseher Snap On system was not adopted as the universal pad fixing method. Does anyone know the reason why? My system as described here is the magnetic equivalent of the excellent Buescher design. The system is not of course self leveling but this could be incorporated by locating the countersunk magnet in the pad with a plastic or steel resonator cemented to this magnet. This gives an extra 1mm space in the 4mm thick pad. The head of a round head steel screw is cut off and the smoothed out head cemented to the center of the cup interior. Height adjustment of the system could be by very thin steel washers under the half round screw head of by thin paper cut outs behind the pad. I make absolutely no claim for the originality of either of my designs as both are off takes of the works of others David Chapman and Buescher respectively. So thanks be given to these inventors and the utmost appreciation for their work.
It's taken 8 months working in association with a distributor of synthetic materials, under a NDA, to develop a suitable sealing material. This softens/damps the "clapping" noise made by traditional leather pads. The new material is airtight, waterproof, will form a seat but also recover its form entirely when left for 24 hours (low compression set). This latter specification allows for incidental rotation of a pad, non-concentric to its tone hole (they are seldom concentric) and if sprung closed it allows it to form a new seat without any crossover of seat impressions from its prior position where a leak could otherwise be created. Endurance testing of this new material is now in place, especially for the effects of saliva on pads which typically become sticky (e.g. G#). So far there is absolutely no indication that pads would stick over time. If this was to occur, a pad can be removed in a few seconds, cleaned, or easily replaced by an end user/owner. Incidentally, the minimum space required for these pads inside the key cup is 3.5mm meaning in most case a lightweight spacer or spacers is introduced to set the pad at the correct height and indeed to adjust heights when regulating the pad set to work in harmony. These spacers are easily removable if further adjustment is required.
What are you using to hold the magnet to the key cup? Are you going to lock the pad in place or let it free float? Bundy had something similar that had issues of rigidity, what is going to stop them from bending and wearing from standard playing?
Hi Brett, the magnet is glued using a specific nickel to brass glue after research with 3M and Locktite. The pads will free float but have a tendency to stay static due to surface friction between magnet and screw head. They don't flop around, but do self-level when first installed or if manually moved and a key is then closed. There's nothing to bend, all parts are steel or stainless steel apart from the synthetic seal which self-adheres to the stainless backing disc. It's also hard wearing but is easily replaced, unlike a leather pad.
I have come across references to your pads Mr Smith and have wondered just how they work. Is your design patented? Or could you publish your work in pdf or video for strictly informational purposes. Possibly you have already made your work public and if so pleas do provide me with a link to what I consider to be a mile stone in the progress towards a sensible , rational and modern to the saxophone pad. Thank you and looking forward to a communication from you.
Hi Jim, yes we've emailed before and I've tried one of your self levelling pads on a Yamaha. Your pad base glues directly into the key cup and so the pad isn't instantly removable, as mine is. Also you have to adjust your pad base height with washers/shims under before you glue it in - tricky to get right. With mine a pad can be trial fitted, whipped out, height adjusted using an allen key and spanner, and popped back in. During initial adjustment and regulating this is crucial to a speedy set-up. I'm also doing away with the felt under the pad skin. Mine is just one layer of synthetic material onto the stainless backing disc. That's what's taking the time - to get the perfect material which is tough, pliable, anti-moisture, low compression set yet holds a seat for "a while". I'm down to two contenders, but there's still final density and thickness to work out. It's slow progress too on the small parts which have been in short supply for sample work. I'll be sure to order in plenty of time now I have all the lead times and minimum quantities. I still see this as a tech job - not many will want to dismantle and reassemble their horns themselves. But once done, replacement pads could be dropped in by a competent owner (adjustment and regulation still required). Or perhaps they may wish to swap to a different resonator. Just remove the old one, drop on the new one. This may be a small business for me, if it works out, where I do the initial work and have a local tech check the set-up before a horn goes back to its owner. But... a lot of folk are still going to be set in their 150 year old ways, and techs too no doubt. Still, when you have an idea it's good to see it through to a successful result. We'll see...
Well deserved appreciation is due to your brave attempt to introduce a modern approach to the ancient practice of leather and felt pads for the saxophone. Not intended in the slightest as any sort of disapprobation, but some honest and well meaning comment might serve a useful purpose towards betterment . The pad noise is truly excessive as is the difference in feel. Pad noise could be eliminated totally by the use of a more conventional thickness of an appropriate duro felt. This is precluded by the limited distance or height between the underside of the cup and the edge of the tone hole due to the thickness of the magnet. Saxophone pads have been the object of my intense and almost continuous research for as long as I can remember. There can be only one and only one solution to this apparently ridiculously simple and ordinary problem. And this involves the engagement of polymer chemists developing a material exclusively suited for the use as pad material. The most serious the most intense, the most expensive research by hobbyists, saxophonists, instrument manufacturers and the interested must come to naught as there does not exist presently any material appropriate as pad material either for the sealing element or the back up element. A more pragmatic approach would remove the main bother by the removal of old pads and installation of new pads on an instrument which is in otherwise perfect playing condition. The use of thin neodymium magnets to hold the conventional pad in place would to a great extent remove the necessity for replacing existing pad design and materials by more modern and presently non available materials. Some slight modification would of course be required to render this method workable such as the removal of the resonator and cementing of the magnet its place.While it would not remove the requirement for perfect alignment of pad with respect to tone hole, tone hole leveling, pad seating, etc, it would at least make the removal of dysfunctional pads and the installation of fresh pads not as much of a bother resulting from the complete disassembly of the instrument or at least one stack to replace just one pad.This method provides a great plus to the service person and retains the sound and feel of the ancient pad system so beloved by most or all saxophonists.
Great idea man! Interesting to compare these with music medic’s neopads.
Genius!
where can i order and how much is the cost salu.thank you
very similar to the dutch? toptone system used on some earlier Trevor James (The horn?) saxes
And what would happen to the keys in the left hand?
Does that increase the weight of the instrument?
Thank you for your detailed reply. The difficulty faced by attempts to gain more widespread acceptance is that they required an especially built tone hole pad system or special sealing material. The Codera system, from the illustrations available, used a thin sealing ring which seems to have been cast into its retaining groove. Do you know what this sealing ring material was? Or can you advise me as to how I may get to know of this material from information which might have been published and made public/ EVA has proved satisfactory for clarinet pads and are available commercially . Have you considered this material for your system? EVA is used as a substitute for neoprene and is more durable and is ridiculously inexpensive. Do you know the sealing disc used in the Toptone design? I have a British made Boosey and Hawkes flute fitted with synthetic material pads. This flute has been in continuous studio use for some twelve years and pads are as good as new. I had requested information from B and H as to their pad material but my many letters did not yield even an acknowledgment . Perhaps this material would suit your system and as the material was made in quantity and possibly still it you would not need an especially produced material. I hope you might be able to answer my queries and thank you for your help.
Wouldn't the brooch be better?
Every attempt to remove for ever the messy situation of cementing pads into cups must be given the utmost appreciation and encouragement. This new magnetic system is indeed elegant. What some professionals might not like is the clapping sound produced as the pad closes. This could be remedied by the choice of an appropriate sealing synthetic elastomer. I had tried out the system but found that it could not be used on my tenor due to the very restricted space available between the pad sealing surface and the cup surface. The situation was set right by replicating the classic Buescher snap on system but using a magnet in place of the split resonator. This magnet is 6mm in dia and 4 mm thick and fits absolutely in the pad thickness which is of course 4mm. The resonator could be a plastic disc or a metal disc to which the magnet is cemented using two component epoxy.The pad back up disc is of fiber glass of thickness 1.25mm. This removes the mess of pad cementing. Incidentally it is indeed tragic that the Bueseher Snap On system was not adopted as the universal pad fixing method. Does anyone know the reason why?
My system as described here is the magnetic equivalent of the excellent Buescher design. The system is not of course self leveling but this could be incorporated by locating the countersunk magnet in the pad with a plastic or steel resonator cemented to this magnet. This gives an extra 1mm space in the 4mm thick pad. The head of a round head steel screw is cut off and the smoothed out head cemented to the center of the cup interior. Height adjustment of the system could be by very thin steel washers under the half round screw head of by thin paper cut outs behind the pad. I make absolutely no claim for the originality of either of my designs as both are off takes of the works of others David Chapman and Buescher respectively. So thanks be given to these inventors and the utmost appreciation for their work.
It's taken 8 months working in association with a distributor of synthetic materials, under a NDA, to develop a suitable sealing material. This softens/damps the "clapping" noise made by traditional leather pads. The new material is airtight, waterproof, will form a seat but also recover its form entirely when left for 24 hours (low compression set). This latter specification allows for incidental rotation of a pad, non-concentric to its tone hole (they are seldom concentric) and if sprung closed it allows it to form a new seat without any crossover of seat impressions from its prior position where a leak could otherwise be created. Endurance testing of this new material is now in place, especially for the effects of saliva on pads which typically become sticky (e.g. G#). So far there is absolutely no indication that pads would stick over time. If this was to occur, a pad can be removed in a few seconds, cleaned, or easily replaced by an end user/owner.
Incidentally, the minimum space required for these pads inside the key cup is 3.5mm meaning in most case a lightweight spacer or spacers is introduced to set the pad at the correct height and indeed to adjust heights when regulating the pad set to work in harmony. These spacers are easily removable if further adjustment is required.
What are you using to hold the magnet to the key cup? Are you going to lock the pad in place or let it free float? Bundy had something similar that had issues of rigidity, what is going to stop them from bending and wearing from standard playing?
Hi Brett, the magnet is glued using a specific nickel to brass glue after research with 3M and Locktite.
The pads will free float but have a tendency to stay static due to surface friction between magnet and screw head. They don't flop around, but do self-level when first installed or if manually moved and a key is then closed.
There's nothing to bend, all parts are steel or stainless steel apart from the synthetic seal which self-adheres to the stainless backing disc. It's also hard wearing but is easily replaced, unlike a leather pad.
What’s the progress on these pads?
wow what a game changer
Interessante .....Seria um bom completo fazer um som para ouvirmos como soa com estas sapatilhas ...
no expert skills needed...
I tried the magnetic pad and have a self leveling pad on the market. Please contact me.
I have come across references to your pads Mr Smith and have wondered just how they work. Is your design patented? Or could you publish your work in pdf or video for strictly informational purposes. Possibly you have already made your work public and if so pleas do provide me with a link to what I consider to be a mile stone in the progress towards a sensible , rational and modern to the saxophone pad. Thank you and looking forward to a communication from you.
Hi Jim, yes we've emailed before and I've tried one of your self levelling pads on a Yamaha. Your pad base glues directly into the key cup and so the pad isn't instantly removable, as mine is. Also you have to adjust your pad base height with washers/shims under before you glue it in - tricky to get right. With mine a pad can be trial fitted, whipped out, height adjusted using an allen key and spanner, and popped back in. During initial adjustment and regulating this is crucial to a speedy set-up. I'm also doing away with the felt under the pad skin. Mine is just one layer of synthetic material onto the stainless backing disc. That's what's taking the time - to get the perfect material which is tough, pliable, anti-moisture, low compression set yet holds a seat for "a while". I'm down to two contenders, but there's still final density and thickness to work out. It's slow progress too on the small parts which have been in short supply for sample work. I'll be sure to order in plenty of time now I have all the lead times and minimum quantities. I still see this as a tech job - not many will want to dismantle and reassemble their horns themselves. But once done, replacement pads could be dropped in by a competent owner (adjustment and regulation still required). Or perhaps they may wish to swap to a different resonator. Just remove the old one, drop on the new one.
This may be a small business for me, if it works out, where I do the initial work and have a local tech check the set-up before a horn goes back to its owner. But... a lot of folk are still going to be set in their 150 year old ways, and techs too no doubt. Still, when you have an idea it's good to see it through to a successful result. We'll see...
@@vivianastridge2167 I suggest you contact Jim directly via his website: jsengineering.net