The Talons Of Weng-Chiang remains my favourite Fourth Doctor story and second favourite of all time. The dialogue sparkles, the characters shine, the atmosphere is palpable and the production quality for Victorian London is nothing short of magnificent. I've seen it countless times and the Leela-Litefoot scenes still make me grin like an idiot. This was Hinchcliffe and Holmes' final story together and they couldn't have ended their era on a higher note, it's their magnum opus in my opinion. (Reposting my comment because the original is hidden for some reason - I assume because of the charged debate I got in my replies.)
I get that the writing was decent, but the casting, (in the most obvious sense), was not to be desired. Meanwhile, in the Third Doctors era, they actually hired real Asian actors.
Yep, an absolutely delightful scene! As Litefoot is a Victorian Gentleman, his first thoughts would be to make his guest feel at ease and not embarrassed in any way. Especially as he is entertaining a female guest.
I think the yellow face thing fell out of favor earlier in the states than it did in the UK. Maybe because we had more East Asian actors available because of the high Asian population in California; films and musicals like “Flower Drum Song” which was an all Asian cast, and Bruce Lee becoming an overnight sensation in the late ‘60’s as Cato in the “Green Hornet” tv series, helped pave the way.
I have a replica of the theatre poster for Li H'Sen Chang seen at the start of the story. It's A2 size, beautiful quality and takes pride of place in a frame in my hallway.
I was just watching this on Freevee yesterday, and thinking from the ending shot that it would be great to have a copy of the poster. 🤣 Where did you get it, if you don't mind me asking. It's one of my favorite Baker stories.
There's a British Asian actor who said that "yellow face" made sense in the past (e.g 70s) because there wasn't a huge pool of east Asian actors in Britain at the time. If it had been done by an actual British Chinese actor, it may have been better. They may have brought something special to the role. They may have been able to play around with the stereotypes being used. As it is, the episode is a pastiche of Victorian yellow-peril fiction and the theatre, fitted into quite a compelling time travel story. When judging its merits, it would be too easy to fall into black and white morality. A more nuanced understanding is needed.
Jago & Litefoot became so popular they got their own spin-off audio stories. My mom was never a Doctor Who fan, but she sat & watched this with me & loved it. one of the best stories for the entire doctor who era. can't wait to the rest of it.
As a Whovian who's also Chinese, Talons is still an iconic classic of the series and Four's era. Hands down. I get that younger audiences or just people watching it for the first time in these modern times probably will feel uncomfortable (and I appreciate it), as one probably ought to were anyone to even dream of attempting such a story and plot today. I'd blame the times, not the show for being a product of them and being made for audiences of them (I *was* alive when this was broadcast, but I was 2 and didn't see this ep until maybe several years later in the '80s). Edit: Since this came up. *I* can "compartmentalize" it. I was there. I remember those fun years. I am NOT saying that means anyone else can, should, or ought to, Asian or not. Or not to be bothered or feel uncomfortable about it. Edit 2: And I definitely don't believe I can or do speak for all other Asians. Also, Orientalism was never a reflection of Asians as much as it was of how the Western world perceived them.
The Yellow Peril genrewas vilified by the mid 1930s. Even the Chinese government were unhappy. So by 1977 it is unfortunate but nonetheless what a amazing production snd re-creation of the Yellow Peril genre.
@@BernardJKD Yeah, an' I think it was pretty clever of the Hinchcliffe Era to dive into so many different facets of gothic horror with the show's scifi spin, including this one. The casting is what it is. Pools of available acting talent are small, esp. in the UK compared to the US. There were obviously Asian actors in the more supporting roles here, but they'll go for someone with much more experience, name draw, and familiarity, which was the likely case here. Up to the '90s and even well into the 2000s, the number of Asian actors in Western cinema was comparatively small, often with the same several familiar names. Even today, Chinese actors playing Japanese characters and vice versa is still pretty common. There's certainly a ways to go, but I think most sensible people are glad these things've been changing, there're larger pools of acting talent, and that things like yellowface are a thing of the past.
For cultural context, when Talons was broadcast, the BBC was still producing and broadcasting The Black and White Minstrel show. So blackface was a routine occurrence on British TV at the time. Your reaction is entirely valid. It's not something that bothers me specifically, but I'm glad we now live in a world which has progressed, but I acknowledge there's still room for improvement. I look forward to future classic who reactions.
Actor John Bennett (Li H'sen Chang) was also in The Fifth Element starring Bruce Willis, and Deep Roy (Mr. Sin) has been in just about everything including Star Wars, Star Trek, X-Files, Flash Gordon, The NeverEnding Story, and he played all of the Oompa Loompas in Tim Burton's Charlie and The Chocolate Factory.
Haha, I forgot to mention that watching in the 70s for me meant staring at a 12” b&w tv with imperfect cable signal. There was no option to rewind for evaluating “wth did I just see” unless the host decided to play a particular scene as part of the outro, at least for weeks or months later. The difference between bad yellow face and inferior background extras was negligible under those conditions. 😅
@@Si_of_Earth Or, y'know, although the inadvertent racism is unfortunate and I don't condone it in any way, I can view it as a product of its time and enjoy the story, characters, themes, setting, sets, tone, etc, regardless.
Jess i think you know why the fourth Doctor was my Doctor, i was born in 69, so i saw all the series before when i was three, but have amazing memory and remember it all, Tom, was my Doctor, the longest serving Doctor, seven years, keep going, Tom has so much more.
What pisses me off more than anything is peoples modern skewed viewed mindsets everyones going on about how racist it was it really wasnt its just an actor playing a chinese man it wasn't intended as offensive then it's sure as hell not intended to be offensive now look at it in context i notice in the comments people are more going on about the racism rather than what a great story it is. Seriously people grow up and get over it it was what it was just except it and move on learn from history not to repeat in the future don't delete it.
The Doctor is dressed as Sherlock Holmes and has his choice of Watsons: Litefoot - a well-off coroner who has a housekeeper named Mrs. Hudson; and Jaggo (Mr. Henry Gordon Jaggo, if you please...) - the owner and operator of a London music hall and a bit of a self-made man. That's not meant to sell Leela short, though - she's loyal to her friend and has had several adventures with him by this time. Also, she's very observant and intelligent in her own right. The story itself is very well written, however there are certain aspects of its execution that I find problematic. Thank you for addressing those aspects in your review.
when this was made, there were very few Chinese actors in equity (the actors union) and they were busy, and no equity card meant you couldn't have a speaking role, if it makes you feel better within a couple of years of this one of the chinese extras was headlining his own TV cop show on ITV
Don't care, The Talons of Weng Chiang is one of the best stories in the fourth doctors era. This and The Seeds of Doom are two of my favourite stories in the 4th doctors era. Love it.
Absolutely one of the best Doctor Who stories not just of the original series, but in totality. But, yeah, definitely the dreaded "product of its time". Random question to the group mind out there-- Is this the only serial in which the Doctor does not wear his trademark over long scarf?
Fun fact about the 'it was made in a different time' criticisms, regarding this story: Yeah it was a different time and this was still considered racist then. TVOntario refused to air it in Canada because it was 'dangerously offensive stereotyping associating Chinese people with everything fearful and despicable'
I don't think the "different times" criticism was ever valid, racism is racism no matter what period of time it is, there's still racism today but we don't say it's "of the times" but it seems this story wasn't as much racist as parodying or pastiching the Fu Man Chu character, itself a totally uninformed stereotype of Chinese culture done by a guy who had zero idea about Chinese culture at all. So basically this is a cliche of a cliche and not intended to be anything more than that but the sensitive little darlings now can't handle it because everyone wants to be offended at everything and have their sensibilities appeased every two seconds.
At last! I’ve been waiting and waiting and waiting for you to get to The Talons of Weng-Chiang! This is the first Doctor Who story I ever watched all the way through as an 11-year-old and it still is perhaps my favourite, though Seeds of Doom is right up there.
I understand your discomfort with the casting, and as a black man I get it, but I do love this story So Much! You have Sherlock Holmes, Fu Manchu, Phantom of the Opera, mixed in with what was pulp fiction (or 'penny dreadfuls') and sci fi!! The 'women as victims' trope is here, but Leela turns it around! What makes the story are Jago and Lightfoot!! Probably the most popular one story characters ever!!
Yayyy! Henry Gordon Jago & Professor George Litefoot are Finally Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yaaayyyy! One of the best Tom Baker stories! Much Loved by Just about everyone!!!!! Tom's Outfit in this is EPIC, Now you know where 11 got his Sherlock outfit in "The snowmen" Leela's Outfit...So cute! Yes, this is Possibly the most controversial Doctor Who ever! Yiu'll recognize Chistopher Benjamin (Jago) From: Inferno - Sir Keith Gold and The Unicorn and the Wasp - Colonel Hugh Rip Trevor Baxter, Forver Professor Litefoot "The Talons of Weng-Chiang" was talked about being the start of a New T.V. spin-off for Jago and Litefoot, but that never happend, Luckilly, Big Finish fixed that with 13 glorious series of The "Jago and Litefoot Audios". Which sees them encountering some other well known doctor who characters including a certain trio from "Paternoster Row".
I remember watching this when it first came out. This is still one of my favorite, even though it has the unfortunate betrayal in it. I'm probably one of the few that still likes it.
Ok just to clear up a few things. The terms we consider racist today were considered less racist in 1977 but also are correct dialogue for the victorian setting....... With regards to the actual casting, the important thing to know is that at this point there were NO chinese actors within Equity in the UK at the time this serial was made, and for a character to speak dialogue they had to be a member of Equity. All of the background Chinese weren't actors, they were mostly waiters from the directors local chinese restaurant, and a couple of them where chinese acrobats from a touring circus but none of them were actual actors, and none spoke english. The same problem occurred 2 years later in Louise Jamesons next project 'Tenko' where it was found there was only actually one single japanese actor in Equity and he didn't speak english. That actor was actually cast in the role of 'Sato' who only spoke english words when told them to repeat, he never understood them. Bert Kwouk who played the lead Japanese character was infact Chinese and had been signed to Equity as a direct result of no chinese actors being available for this Doctor Who story and then a need for another production straight after, and in Tenko, once again the majority of 'japanese' guards were chinese waiters from around london and not actors at all. The east Asian community in the Uk up until the end of the 1970s was almost non existant and very much limited to the small 'Chinatown' areas of cities such as London and Manchester and sadly were not welcome to mix outside of their own area.
It was a different time than I really don't care what other people say about this story. I think it's a really good story and terrific. It's doctor who meets Sherlock Holmes if you don't like it. You don't have to watch it but I think it's wonderful. It has really good lines in it too especially in your part six
@Jeremy-f3s Bore off. To anyone who likes this story: make sure you have a hard copy to enjoy in the future before the snowflake society take it offline 😉
@@Si_of_Earth funny how the people who use the term snow flake are the first ones crying and whinging themselves. Stop sulking and grow a back bone you marshmallow. I didn't say this story should be cancelled, I said racism is racism it doesn't get to hide behind a time period. I don't think the story is racist cos people dont understand the term racist, just like you don't understand the term snow flake...
In those times it was seen as okay for an actor to play any role they see fit because the job of the actor is to make out to be a different character. This is not the view held by many people today. On a positive note, Chang isn't played as an offensive stereotype like Mickey Rooney is Breakfast at Tiffanys. Chang (as will be seen) is a villain but a subtle and tragic figure.
That difference is what makes the story for me. Chang plays into the stereotypes as part of his cover, but The Doctor knows better! And this is light years from what Peter Sellars did in popular comedies of the time.
Not to pick on you, but you seem nice. 🙂 To be precise, in those days it was okay for white actors to play other races. No black man played a white Iago, for example, the way many white men blacked up and played Othello, often to considerable acclaim. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d be willing to bet that a man like James Hong was never asked to don makeup and play a white farmer from Kansas in his seventy-odd years in the business. “White Chicks” had a lot of fun with this idea. That Chang is such an uncommonly well written part had to be a double edged sword for any aspiring Asian actors doing stuff in England at the time. An acquaintance once said of Laurence Olivier getting the best reviews of his life on stage as Othello a dozen years before, “There is ONE classical role that black men can play and Larry took it away from us!” Deliberately or not, the gatekeepers did their job very well, both in England and Hollywood and elsewhere for many years. Do we wipe the tapes for “Talons of Weng Chiang” and pretend it was never made? Disney acts like “Song of the South” never happened for not entirely unrelated racial concerns. Is erasing history a path we want to go down? Some do, and we’ll see what comes of it in a generation or two. I’d rather not, but I’m a white guy who’s very good at rationalizing away what offends others. Just to show where I’m coming from, I can never watch “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” again because of Mr. Yuniyoshi. My GOD, what can they have been thinking??? 😳
I mean it’s the late 70s, the “product of it’s time” argument shouldn’t really hold much water it’s a bit late for that, it’s especially absurd because there’s other Chinese characters in the story that are actually played by Asian actors it doesn’t make sense
@@rnw2739 The snark is unreal, of course I know the difference between extras and full actors, I was just pointing out that since they went through the trouble of hiring authentically Asian extras they certainly could have found an Asian actor to take the role. I hope you don’t agree with the Talons of Wayne Chiang above (who’s doing a great job of hiding his bias) that there were no Asian actors in London at the time that could “handle” the part, if they could find Zenia Merton 15 years earlier for Marco Polo, they could have at the very least found a Korean, Japanese, etc. actor for the role. Other than that I think the sorry is fantastic, I was just saying the “product of the time argument” can’t just be taken for granted the same way as it could for Darren Nesbitt’s Tegana or Bernard Kay’s Saladin is all. Not like 1977 was a beacon of progressivism but we also shouldn’t pretend it was the functional equivalent of a decade prior. I think it’s a reasonable enough take
I think both sides of the eternal argument over "The Talons of Weng-Chiang" are right. On the one hand, it's a great story, with a beautiful gothic horror atmosphere, great acting, great production, etc. On the other hand, it is still racist. Yellowface is wrong and the justification that "there weren't many Asian actors at the time" is offensive and misguided, considering that a few years earlier Doctor Who cast Asian actors in the story "The Mind of Evil". I think it's possible for you to like or admire this particular story and at the same time recognize its problematic and offensive aspects. And I'm really glad that Sesska did that instead of pretending it's nothing. My admiration for her only grows.
Leela basically has her own episode when she follows Chang to Greel's lair. All on her own she uses her hunter/warrior skill to track and almost take out Greel, in the meantime gaining valuable intelligence. When the Doctor rescues her from the giant rat, she's the only one who knows what's really going on. Leela is the most "bad ass" in this segment, showing that she can handle herself just fine. P.S. I got to go to China twice in the late 90s on business trips and while staying at a western style hotel, I watched parts of a movie on TV that was about the Opium Wars, and all British were played by Chinese wearing either red or blond wigs with full beards. It goes both ways.
This is considered a really classic story. Although, it's one of those that hasn't aged well with the times. Obviously, because of the Asian stereotypes. Basically, you'll just have to enjoy it on its own merits.
the whole point is stereotyping- everyone is stereotyped in this story (Casey is Oirish sure and begorah) because its an homage to Sherlock Holmes, Fu Manchu and other gaslight Victorian trope. The digs at Victorian imperialist thought are quite evident.
@@the5thdoctor Could Explain why in "Twice Upon a Time" the First Doctor makes some questionable comments. I figure he is trying to put the WW1 Captain at ease, and talking that way for his benefit.
When TV Ontario was broadcasting Doctor Who in the 70s, it was packaged as “educational“ by employing intro and outro hosts (first Dr. Dator meets Doctor Who for the Pertwee episodes, then scifi author Judith Merril for the Tom Baker episodes). Dator concentrated on the tech and made comparisons to other science fiction shows, while Merril focused on social aspects of the stories that were broadcast. I didn’t know this at the time, but TVO didn’t show Talons because Judith Merril didn’t like the yellow face casting for the story. I did see the shows on the PBS station available to me but might have benefited back then from a little enlightenment about one of my favourite Doctor Who stories. 🤷♂
Beautifully put. Your reaction, your channel. I don't think it was rude at all (and I did grown up with this kind of thing on TV all the time in the UK and I love this story but that doesn't mean I don't SEE what it is either).
Despite the racism, which is abhorrent and can not be excused. This is still one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, it's a really great and engaging gothic horror story
@@rnw2739 Just because you struggle to have sincere empathy, does not mean everybody else is insincere when they see blatant racism and mention how cringe it is.
Though I love this story, I agree with you 100% about the unfortunate use of "yellow face" and I assure you that you're not the only person who's uncomfortable with it. At the time of release, there was more of a protest when it was aired in Canada than when it was shown in the U.K., with TVOntario refusing to air it, but with the passage of time, criticism of that element of the production in the U.K. and everywhere has only increased. The story also features racial stereotypes and a few racial slurs. I believe Britbox now includes a trigger warning about the potentially offensive nature of the content.
@@kierenevans2521 Actually, it was shown regularly in the late 70s to early 80s. The ABC would year in year out repeat "Who" from "Spearhead From Space" onwards. Only stories such as "Invasion of The Dinosaurs", with its' scrubbed first episode colour master tape and the non G rated "The Deadly Assassin" were left out. We didn't see the fourth Doctor's first return visit to Gallifrey until the late 80s, perhaps the early 90s. Memory can be a bit fuzzy. The Nine Network was still broadcasting "The Black and White Ministrel Show" in the early 80s. Television and Film production was dominated by Caucasian Men. Even a then, liberal progressive producer of that time, would probably appear regressive and out of date by today's standards. Not excusing the past or ignore wrongs, but pointing out the importance of context and that life is full of nuance and complexity. Life is rarely binary. Absolutism helps no one. P.S. I'm not accusing You or anyone here of absolutism. Just pointing out rigid thinking as a whole doesn't help with understanding. Ah, the nuance problem. Is Ones' intent properly conveyed via text?
There are very few people today who would defend the casting choice, but it's also a TERRIFIC story. Many fans have quite conflicting thoughts about this particular story. You did well to address the elephant in the room.
Jess, despite my strong opinion against people getting offended by portrayals on TV and film that wouldn't necessarily fly today, I totally agree you or anyone else has the right to react in whatever way you feel about that portrayal. I also respect the fact that you can still find enjoyment in the fun and positive aspects of the teleplay and its production despite the former and that's what I and I'm sure many others are here to watch. Carry on, sister. This is your channel and you react in whatever way you see fit.
I have found it strange the way modern people react to old portrayals of other races by Caucasians - like it is only done by Caucasians. You don't think Bollywood does it? How about Japan?
Christopher Benjamin was in three different Doctor Who stories and got to act with three different doctors! He was in Inferno, with Pertwee. He's Jago here with Baker. And he's the Colonel in The Unicorn and the Wasp with David Tennant. How cool is that??
Chung Ling Soo was a "Chinese" Victorian stage magician. Real name William Ellsworth Robinson. American. Who's to say that Li H'sen Chang wasn't a reference to him?
A really good, fun story to watch, obviously based on the Jack the Ripper murders with a touch of classic Hammer Horror. A great end to season 14. And yes they could've got a Chinese actor to play Li H'sen Chang, maybe low budget or not finding the right actor led them to cast John Bennett, I really don't know.
There were very few, if any, Chinese actors in Britain at the time who were capable of playing a major leading role like Li H'Sen Chang. There was only really Bert Kwouk, and he was probably out of reach after hitting the big time as Cato in the Pink Panther franchise. (No disrespect to Bert, but he wasn't exactly "leading role" material either.) In fact, we had to wait until the early 1980s before a British/Asian actor emerged who was talented enough to play a leading role on British TV, and that was the young David Yip in "The Chinese Detective".
@@tommarshall4561 I'm going on what Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks have said in interviews, articles and DVD commentaries. I suggest you hire a medium and direct your cocky, sanctimonious arrogance at them.
@@tommarshall4561 A few years later they needed Chinese actors for a different story. The word is the producer hired the staff at his local Chinese restaurant, because there weren't Chinese actors they could hire (as in there weren't any to be hired) - except Bert Kwouk - who in fact did get the larger Chinese role in that story.
@@wellington-rq2br Indeed. Researcher Richard Bignell went through the spotlight directory for 1978/9 and found less than 100 ethnic actors on the books for that year. That is ethnic of ALL non-white races, all ages and sexes. That is how the UK was then and anyone who thinks differently is delusional. The pool of available talent was pitifully small.
Tom, without naming the predictable names of David Yip and Burt Kwouk perhaps you could share your extensive knowledge of the many Chinese actors out there that were capable?
Parts this story has aged rather poorly, but Jago and Litefoot are among the best one-off characters in the Doctor Who canon. Also, their spinoff audio series is some of Big Finish's best work. RIP Trevor Baxter.
Still one of my faves. No I don't care about the makeup, it was just the norm in the days when this was made. Ricardo Montalban, a Hispanic guy played a Sikh Indian for example. Tom Baker dressed like Holmes was fantastic.
I think I agree with Jess' way of viewing controversial aspects of older films and TV shows. I do hope that she mentions more of Li H'sen Chang as a character as the story goes on, as I feel that he's an very interesting character and John Bennett gives an excellent layered performance that makes him a more 3 dimensional presence in the story regardless of what the now dated make-up suggests.
The problem was there was hardly any asian actors in Great Britain at the time of filiming. They would have used more asian actors had there been any available.
More than likely didn't have an Equity card between them, so unable to have a speaking part and that's without the factor of accomplished acting chops and gravitas factor in their capability to play a lead villain opposite the leading man, which is probably why they didn't use any of the Chinese cast for Li H'sen Chang.
People, women in particular, disappeared a LOT back then and nobody really cared unless they were rich. Family and friends cared, but good luck getting anyone to do anything about it. Say the cabbie got to the police and carried on as he did at the theater, if the cops gave him a second thought at all they probably said the guy seemed volatile and angry and his wife probably ran off and good luck to her. Serial killers had a field day.
And here we are. At the end of the Hinchcliffe era, with Robert Holmes brilliant Holmesian pastiche. A script that plays with Conan Doyle's tropes and makes some pointed commentary on orientalism/racism. Only to be perhaps, fatally compromised by the lazy use of yellowface. Philip Hinchcliffe has said in interviews that he and the production team should have done better and tried harder to cast a ethnically Chinese British actor. Interesting/coincidental that You post this shortly after "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once's" Oscar success. Among it's cast is the great James Hong. A brilliant Chinese American actor, who has spoken about this very issue. You are right to feel uncomfortable, but I believe the story has a lot to offer and surely open, free viewing and discussion of "difficult" or "problematic" texts is better than censorship? Banning something, shuts down the possibility of discussion and learning from past mistakes. We must look honestly at the past, as discomforting as that may be. That's how we learn to do better. Better to have content warnings, than shutting down choice?
Regrettable casting aside, this is still my favorite Dr. WHO story. It introduces us to Jago and Lightfoot and features the absolutely terrifying Mr. Sin. And it's Tom at his best.
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang Agreed. And I suspect he was cast as a nod towards Christopher Lee's portrayal of Fu Manchu. The whole story is a wonderful pastiche of all things that epitomise Victorian fact and fiction, and the gothic horror based upon it. It is perfectly put together.
I'm glad you didn't cut that bit off at the end, it was hilarious and something people use way too often to defend something like this. I hadn't seen this story for nearly 10 years since I don't usually revisit Classic Who stories once I've seen them, so I didn't remember how bad the yellowface was and was even feeling quite uncomfortable just watching you reaction. I remember enjoying this story as it was though, so I hope you're not too put off while going through the rest of the story.
@@rnw2739 Mate, do you need to be put in a straight jacket? going off the handle and commenting on nearly everyone’s comments isn’t going to sway them to your side.
@@rnw2739 Yes, I needed something explaining (I’m disabled, bet that ruffles your feathers). I didn’t realise we all had the same brain. And, I’m a “leftie” 😉 I’m proud to be one. Why do you all have a problem with us minorities just wanting to work or literally exist? next, you’ll tell me disabilities aren’t real. They’re made up by the government or medical profession.
3:49 this is probably a reference to the season 1 story Marco Polo,although that took place in the 13th century so the Doctor is out by about a couple of centuries
Possibly, though it's just as likely Bob Holmes just invented an off-screen encounter on the spur of the moment. He was really good at inventing little bits of apparent context and not bothering to explain them, just leave them dangling to tease the audience (or make the kids turn round and say "when was that then, Mummy?", and thereby teach them that parents don't always know all the answers! =;o} ).
While I couldn't articulate myself on the issue at the time, even as someone in junior primary school in rural Australia when it aired in the early 80s, it was jarring. Not as jarring as the The Black and White Minstrel Show - a BBC variety show themed on blackface which was repeated on Australian television, and saw tours over this way into the late '80s - but still, it caused pause. Not trying to be "woke" or whatever, it's just that's what my reaction was at the time. Going by old news reports, while nobody was talking about it in the schoolyard, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who thought it was off. It's just a weird take for anyone to object to this kind of reaction, in what is after all, a reaction video. "It is what it is" also applies to what it is that you feel, and how you react, so... maybe people could just accept your reaction in that context, and enjoy the rest of the video themselves? Either way, I don't think you have any apologizing to do.
Hmmmm 51st century time agents?....where have we heard that before?? (Mrs Hudson....Sherlock Holmes anyone) ...and all this story is remembered for is the OTT racism which was bad but there is also things to enjoy
I love this story and it's one of the best classic Who ones too. But that casting, makeup and 'accent' has always made me cringe. Deeply unfortunate in an otherwise excellent piece.
I don't know if you still see the comments on these older videos, (I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped looking at the ones related to this story in particular) but if you ever feel like revisiting "Talons" in your own time, though obviously without the yellowface part, you could possibly look into the novelization, or an audiobook of it. Just a thought. The original televised version is a difficult watch for a lot of people due to that part of it, which is understandable, it's just a shame since it is quite a good story outside of that.
It's a frustrating aspect of this time, it's a shame that this late into the show these dated casting choices were still going on, especially since s4-13 seemed to have been better when it came to casting.
Yeah, I think it's because it's such a main character, the people behind the scenes said there weren't many big Asian actors at that time. I'm not sure if I believe it, but it does make it an even harder pill to swallow when we have solid Asian characters like Chin Lee in The Mind of Evil.
It jars even more, so considering the previous story had a cast with a variety of ethnicities, which I believe was a deliberate choice by the director.
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang How do you know? They didn't even try. It's really messed up how your argument is "better to be racist than have an underwhelming acting performance".
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang You're replying to every comment to defend "yellowface" and even comparing a black actress playing a black character (The Little Mermaid) to a white actor playing a Chinese one. Yes, you're racist. No, "the acting performance might be underwhelming" is not a fair counter argument. Let's say they did look. Either they couldn't find a single male Chinese actor, which I doubt -- they went to a casting agency for Asian actors for "The Mind of Evil", six years earler -- or they found them and decided the same as you; that none of them would put on a good enough performance, therefore a white person should play a Chinese person. Which is racist. The fact that I even have to explain this to you is shocking.
@@Wannabe_Baby _"Either they couldn't find a single male Chinese actor, which I doubt -- they went to a casting agency for Asian actors for The Mind of Evil"_ - True, and the actors who auditioned weren't good enough. In the end, they had to resort to hiring the owner of said casting agency to play the part himself. And he was no great shakes, if I'm honest.
Robert Holmes fantastic pastiche of the Penny Dreadful - a wonderful blend of Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, The Phantom of the Opera and Fu Manchu, and one could argue that the casting of the imposing John Bennett is a fairly obvious nod towards Christopher Lee's version of Fu Manchu. Anyone who bleats on about racism in a story set amongst the back street gangs of Victorian London is probably happier watching the history revisionism of more recent TV output to sooth their fevered brow. Doctor Who doesn't get any better than The Talons of Weng-Chiang.
One of the best stories made of the era. Do I wish they’d cast people meeting the ethnic characters correctly, yes. But this was how it was at the time. It doesn’t make it right. But it’s how it was. Maybe as I grew up watching it (as a preteen) in the 70s I feel different than someone watching it in a 2020’s world. I would feel differently if they made it like that now. We grow and learn but we can’t change it. (See the growth in female characters through the show as well) All that being said, if you don’t like it, that’s you’re feeling and as valid as mine. I think I find it frustrating when I’m told I can’t enjoy some that l liked when I was younger as now our society has changed (even if I agree for the better).
There you were, thinking that Ramposhi or Cho-chi from 'Planet of the Spiders' was offensively as a Tibetan played by a white actor. Then along comes this. 'back in the day' when I saw it as a kid, I think I remember everyone saying 'he's obviously not Chinese, that's awful make-up'. It is especially bad considering there were Chinese actors around at the time and there were plenty of actual Chinese actors playing the henchmen doing the fighting. I also remember that in the 1970s it was quite common for commedians to do yellow, brown or back face in their sketches as there was a general attitude that foreigners look and sound funny. That doesn't make it right though and "Talons" is one of the controvercial Dr Who stories, which is a pity because for the sake of employing an actual Chinese actor, this would be remembered better and able to be shown on nationa TV again.
You make good point about the times. However, simply casting a Chinese actor wouldn't fix all the problems here - The main being that the Doctor *goes along with* the racism of the Victorian characters. He didn't even need to call it out, specifically - He's a Time Lord, used to walking people from all sorts of weird time- and space-specific prejudices, but just *not join in*. Or maybe have *Leela* comment on how the Police sergeant talks about Chinese people the same way the Tesh talked about the Sevateem...
That thought often crosses my mind whenever "Talons" is discussed. The diminutive Indian/British actor Deep Roy playing the murderous "Peking Homunculus" Mr Sin is okay, but the Englishman John Bennett playing Li Hsen Chang is somehow the worst thing ever. How does that add up?
@@ftumschk you can't make a valid argument for one without extrapolating that to include all other perceived 'problematic' concerns. I don't think the intent was racist, I think for the times it wasn't perceived that way, we are applying 21st century postmodern lenses on things with modern day sensitivity. Ultimately the story and the hard work put into its production is unfairly tarnished by applying a pretty narrow spectrum of received wisdom.
@@ftumschk actually Holmes’ obsession with Othering the disfigured, the disabled, those of different body types etc (including Mr Sin) IS quite often brought up - not with the same frequency but in the Black Archive academic monograph on Talons, for example, there is an entire chunk devoted to how much of an issue the fear of “disfigurement” is in such fiction and the idea that outer scarring means inner evil.
I'd be interested to hear more on this. Mr Sin is a ventriloquist's dummy that comes to life - a standard horror trope. Right now, I can't see an ableist issue with that, but I'm aware that my privilege is probably blinding me to it rather that that meaning that there isn't an issue. Obviously the yellow-face and yellow-peril aspects of this are clearly very problematic.
@@ihateunicorns867 Just because it's a trope does it make it right? Does it make it wrong? Precisely my point. How many Chinese people do you know? There were Chinese actors that worke alongside him. Maybe ask them if they're still about? Thing is, some people will find it utterly offensive, others won't. Who decides? White people and our addiction to guilt? or Chinese people and by what order of ratio? We keep applying a postmodern lens on things that are now a matter of historical record. Entertainment of it's time, there to be enjoyed or despised, but there nonetheless. What do you suggest? Throwing it out compeltely? Erase it? Or enjoy it for what it is, regardless? Can you enjoy it? By what percentage should you enjoy it? 10%, 20%, 80%? I just don't know what you expect to be done about it.
Yeah despite how good this story is it won't ever escape that controversy, and even those involved in making it have since regretted the decisions made. I've rewatched this one before and am sure I will do again, though it's probably best to think of it as a 'look how far we've come since then' or similar. I feel it important to not ignore or try to forget these things, like the saying 'Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it'.
@@rnw2739 We're not the ones who need to have some perspective. Try stepping outside your "everyone has it out for white people" mentality for 5 minutes.
For context it was a pastiche of the Fu Man Chu character, itself an uninformed depiction of Chinese culture based on the opium wars history in which the British tried to force the Chinese to trade in opium to which the Chinese refused resulting in war between both countries. As a result of this the Chinese were demonified and the Fu Man Chu character was born out of this. Eventually it was used as a villain character for films in the 50s and this is what the makers of Doctor Who are copying. So its a cliche of a cliche essentially, not intended at racist by the Doctor Who production, cos the Fu Man Chu character was played by a white man in films too so again they were copying that genre. Because Dr Who copies genres to come up with its variety of stories. But actors did portray other nationalities all the time back then and it had nothing to do with racism they just wanted particular names for the roles. Shirley McClaine portrays an Indian princess in Around the World in 80 Days and Robert Helpmann plays a Chinese Prince in 55 Days in Peking, neither of these roles were intended as racist.
This actually could have been a lot less uncomfortable if they'd borrowed just a little more from the period. There was a famous magician who spent his whole career pretending to be Chinese, seemingly fooling everyone as he went right up to the point where he was accidentally shot when a trick went wrong on stage. He then spoke the first words he ever spoke in English - "Something's gone wrong" - which also turned out to be his last words... The magician here could have been that guy.
Talons of Weng Chiang once upon a time was voted the best of Tom Baker's stories. Great lighting, sets period costume, locations, drama direction, cast. 5 stars across the board. That being said, John Bennett as Li H'sen Chang is a cringe-worthy, uncomfortable performance. I always feel my flesh crawl when somebody is doing a misinterpreted, bigotted stereotype of another race/or culture. Its wrong now. It was wrong then but fortunately people now are educated enough to realize that this is unacceptable in this day and age.
Leela is one of my favorite companions ever. While the yellow face is just painfully obvious now at the time I first saw it as a kid it’s meaning went over my head. It is what it is and getting butt hurt of it forty years later is a waste of energy. And I am an Asian who was brought up in England . Still looks like a Sherlock Holmes story with a Dr who touch. Run time was maybe one episode too long by an enjoyable romp through Victoria era London.
Jess: "I don't have to react a certain way or accept that this is how things were at the time, this is my channel and my reactions are my reactions." At least twenty sweaty angry men in the comments smearing grease stains across their screens as they type: "LET IT GO THIS IS HOW THINGS WERE AT THE TIME WHY ARE YOU VIRTUE SIGNALLING"
This has been considered one of the greatest Who stories ever made -and controversial, depiction of Asians, with a British actor in adapted make-up as Chang. They had like a week to film on location, for this Six Part. This was the last story made by Producer Phillip Hinchcliffe, who took on with Tom Baker. Directed by David Maloney, who had worked since Troughton’s time. Robert Holmes, wrote this, one of the greats. They went “all out” on this. Your reaction to Chang’s plan to abduct “young plump” Women -understable shock. Your discussion, after -thank you for honest truth.
It's not spelled out, but if you know the genre they're riffing from, he's talking about the popular kind of prostitutes at that time in London. And later on, sure enough there's a character who was carefully coded as "we're not actually *saying* she's a lady of the night, but... well, she is just getting home from work in the wee small hours...".
The writers and designers of this story were using research of the music halls of Britain in the 1880s. There were numerous 'Chinese' acts back then, which used stock costumes and fake make-up to exotically entertain, sometimes insensitively. There was, for example, an Englishman who performed as 'Chung-Ling Soo', and was famous for the 'catching a bullet in his teeth' act, which was a French stage-magic invention and had nothing to do with China, except that China was much in the news, with General 'Chinese' Gordon (later famous for failing to defend Khartoum). He died, shot in the neck. Even at the time of this TV show, there were exotic 'Chinese' entertainers, usually tumblers and acrobats, some of whom were even Chinese. A few years later they were replaced, after Bruce Lee and the Kung-Fu film craze, with ninjas. 'The Talons of Weng-Chiang' IMO, should have shown an Englishman pretending to be Chinese, and so giving him another identity, without the need for the faux 'yellowface' makeup it has become.
I can't help but think if they had cast Burt Kwok (who was in a couple of eps of Doctor Who) a prolific British Chinese actor in the 60s 70s 80s and beyond, it would have been much more authentic. But the story itself is fantastic.
@@rnw2739 The story suffered because a white man decided to go yellow face. Not only is it cringe to most normal human beings, it also throws off credibility.
@@tommarshall4561 David Yip was only in his early/mid 20s when this was filmed, so would have been too young to play Li Hsen Chang. David Yip did get a small part in Doctor Who a couple of years later, but it would be a couple of years after that before he started playing major roles on TV. And Li Hsen Chang is definitely a major role.
@@tommarshall4561 They tried Kum's agency when casting The Mind of Evil, but none of the actors were good enough, so they had to resort to casting Kum himself. Not that the role he played was anywhere near as demanding as that of Li Hsen Chang. I'm not making "excuses" either, just stating facts. I lived through that time, and watched a lot of TV, so I know for a fact there were very few experienced Chinese actors active on British television. Bert Kwouk was probably the most successful, and I'm a great fan of his, but even he couldn't have held a candle to John Bennett in this role.
This is a great story - one of the best and I was a very young boy when it was on. I honestly didn't know back then that Li H'sen was not Chinese and I thought his character was brilliant. I was disappointed later when I found out because it seems silly to spend money on makeup when you have actual Chinese people around. I'd rather they used that extra money on the rat, which needs it (it looks like a beautiful well-groomed rat rather than a sewer rat). I thought that Li H'sen 's voice and characterization was spot on but now that I have actual Chinese friends, I realize how far away it is. It's disappointing but don't let it ruin a very good story for you.
they did look for a Chinese actor for the role but back then there were not many in the acting union and they were all busy, and if you didn't have an equity card they couldn't hire you for a speaking role
The Talons Of Weng-Chiang remains my favourite Fourth Doctor story and second favourite of all time. The dialogue sparkles, the characters shine, the atmosphere is palpable and the production quality for Victorian London is nothing short of magnificent. I've seen it countless times and the Leela-Litefoot scenes still make me grin like an idiot. This was Hinchcliffe and Holmes' final story together and they couldn't have ended their era on a higher note, it's their magnum opus in my opinion.
(Reposting my comment because the original is hidden for some reason - I assume because of the charged debate I got in my replies.)
I get that the writing was decent, but the casting, (in the most obvious sense), was not to be desired. Meanwhile, in the Third Doctors era, they actually hired real Asian actors.
@@kyrauniversal It would have probably been hard to find an oriental actor with TV experience in the 70's.
@stevev2492 Not that hard, since they did that already.
The dinner scene with Litefoot and Leela is genuinely adorable
completely agree.
Yep, an absolutely delightful scene! As Litefoot is a Victorian Gentleman, his first thoughts would be to make his guest feel at ease and not embarrassed in any way. Especially as he is entertaining a female guest.
I love Jago and Litefoot! their audio dramas are so fun!
I think the yellow face thing fell out of favor earlier in the states than it did in the UK. Maybe because we had more East Asian actors available because of the high Asian population in California; films and musicals like “Flower Drum Song” which was an all Asian cast, and Bruce Lee becoming an overnight sensation in the late ‘60’s as Cato in the “Green Hornet” tv series, helped pave the way.
One kind of neat thing about this story. All of the stage magic was legitimate.
For what it's worth, my personal opinion on the show is that it is a great story that is unfortunately marred by the yellowface element.
I have a replica of the theatre poster for Li H'Sen Chang seen at the start of the story. It's A2 size, beautiful quality and takes pride of place in a frame in my hallway.
I was just watching this on Freevee yesterday, and thinking from the ending shot that it would be great to have a copy of the poster. 🤣 Where did you get it, if you don't mind me asking. It's one of my favorite Baker stories.
One of my favorite episodes...great reaction
There's a British Asian actor who said that "yellow face" made sense in the past (e.g 70s) because there wasn't a huge pool of east Asian actors in Britain at the time.
If it had been done by an actual British Chinese actor, it may have been better. They may have brought something special to the role. They may have been able to play around with the stereotypes being used.
As it is, the episode is a pastiche of Victorian yellow-peril fiction and the theatre, fitted into quite a compelling time travel story.
When judging its merits, it would be too easy to fall into black and white morality. A more nuanced understanding is needed.
Agreed.
Jago & Litefoot became so popular they got their own spin-off audio stories. My mom was never a Doctor Who fan, but she sat & watched this with me & loved it. one of the best stories for the entire doctor who era. can't wait to the rest of it.
As a Whovian who's also Chinese, Talons is still an iconic classic of the series and Four's era. Hands down.
I get that younger audiences or just people watching it for the first time in these modern times probably will feel uncomfortable (and I appreciate it), as one probably ought to were anyone to even dream of attempting such a story and plot today. I'd blame the times, not the show for being a product of them and being made for audiences of them (I *was* alive when this was broadcast, but I was 2 and didn't see this ep until maybe several years later in the '80s). Edit: Since this came up. *I* can "compartmentalize" it. I was there. I remember those fun years. I am NOT saying that means anyone else can, should, or ought to, Asian or not. Or not to be bothered or feel uncomfortable about it. Edit 2: And I definitely don't believe I can or do speak for all other Asians.
Also, Orientalism was never a reflection of Asians as much as it was of how the Western world perceived them.
The Yellow Peril genrewas vilified by the mid 1930s. Even the Chinese government were unhappy. So by 1977 it is unfortunate but nonetheless what a amazing production snd re-creation of the Yellow Peril genre.
@@BernardJKD Yeah, an' I think it was pretty clever of the Hinchcliffe Era to dive into so many different facets of gothic horror with the show's scifi spin, including this one.
The casting is what it is. Pools of available acting talent are small, esp. in the UK compared to the US. There were obviously Asian actors in the more supporting roles here, but they'll go for someone with much more experience, name draw, and familiarity, which was the likely case here. Up to the '90s and even well into the 2000s, the number of Asian actors in Western cinema was comparatively small, often with the same several familiar names. Even today, Chinese actors playing Japanese characters and vice versa is still pretty common.
There's certainly a ways to go, but I think most sensible people are glad these things've been changing, there're larger pools of acting talent, and that things like yellowface are a thing of the past.
For cultural context, when Talons was broadcast, the BBC was still producing and broadcasting The Black and White Minstrel show. So blackface was a routine occurrence on British TV at the time. Your reaction is entirely valid. It's not something that bothers me specifically, but I'm glad we now live in a world which has progressed, but I acknowledge there's still room for improvement.
I look forward to future classic who reactions.
Actor John Bennett (Li H'sen Chang) was also in The Fifth Element starring Bruce Willis, and Deep Roy (Mr. Sin) has been in just about everything including Star Wars, Star Trek, X-Files, Flash Gordon, The NeverEnding Story, and he played all of the Oompa Loompas in Tim Burton's Charlie and The Chocolate Factory.
John Bennett was General Finch in Invasion of the Dinosaurs,
One of my all-time favourite Tom Baker stories, classic
my favourite line in all of Who "wouldn't want that with onions"
Haha, I forgot to mention that watching in the 70s for me meant staring at a 12” b&w tv with imperfect cable signal. There was no option to rewind for evaluating “wth did I just see” unless the host decided to play a particular scene as part of the outro, at least for weeks or months later. The difference between bad yellow face and inferior background extras was negligible under those conditions. 😅
Fuking masterpiece this one.
Possibly my favourite classic series story. Brilliant.
Racist!
@@Si_of_Earth Or, y'know, although the inadvertent racism is unfortunate and I don't condone it in any way, I can view it as a product of its time and enjoy the story, characters, themes, setting, sets, tone, etc, regardless.
Jess i think you know why the fourth Doctor was my Doctor, i was born in 69, so i saw all the series before when i was three, but have amazing memory and remember it all, Tom, was my Doctor, the longest serving Doctor, seven years, keep going, Tom has so much more.
One of my top 5 classic Who stories, I'm gonna enjoy this!
What pisses me off more than anything is peoples modern skewed viewed mindsets everyones going on about how racist it was it really wasnt its just an actor playing a chinese man it wasn't intended as offensive then it's sure as hell not intended to be offensive now look at it in context i notice in the comments people are more going on about the racism rather than what a great story it is.
Seriously people grow up and get over it it was what it was just except it and move on learn from history not to repeat in the future don't delete it.
The Doctor is dressed as Sherlock Holmes and has his choice of Watsons: Litefoot - a well-off coroner who has a housekeeper named Mrs. Hudson; and Jaggo (Mr. Henry Gordon Jaggo, if you please...) - the owner and operator of a London music hall and a bit of a self-made man. That's not meant to sell Leela short, though - she's loyal to her friend and has had several adventures with him by this time. Also, she's very observant and intelligent in her own right.
The story itself is very well written, however there are certain aspects of its execution that I find problematic. Thank you for addressing those aspects in your review.
when this was made, there were very few Chinese actors in equity (the actors union) and they were busy, and no equity card meant you couldn't have a speaking role, if it makes you feel better within a couple of years of this one of the chinese extras was headlining his own TV cop show on ITV
Was David Yip an extra in this? I thought his only Doctor Who appearance was in a future Dalek story. I won't say which, as Jess hasn't got there yet.
@@ftumschk had a look and i had
miss-remembered
Love the Doctor and Leela’s relationship.
Intelligence and instinct dynamic works really well.
For an ad lib rant on such a touchy subject, I thought you did a really good job of crossing the minefield.
Don't care, The Talons of Weng Chiang is one of the best stories in the fourth doctors era. This and The Seeds of Doom are two of my favourite stories in the 4th doctors era. Love it.
Absolutely one of the best Doctor Who stories not just of the original series, but in totality. But, yeah, definitely the dreaded "product of its time".
Random question to the group mind out there-- Is this the only serial in which the Doctor does not wear his trademark over long scarf?
Fun fact about the 'it was made in a different time' criticisms, regarding this story: Yeah it was a different time and this was still considered racist then. TVOntario refused to air it in Canada because it was 'dangerously offensive stereotyping associating Chinese people with everything fearful and despicable'
I don't think the "different times" criticism was ever valid, racism is racism no matter what period of time it is, there's still racism today but we don't say it's "of the times" but it seems this story wasn't as much racist as parodying or pastiching the Fu Man Chu character, itself a totally uninformed stereotype of Chinese culture done by a guy who had zero idea about Chinese culture at all. So basically this is a cliche of a cliche and not intended to be anything more than that but the sensitive little darlings now can't handle it because everyone wants to be offended at everything and have their sensibilities appeased every two seconds.
It’s cool that Tom also played Sherlock in a BBC TV production of “Hound of the Baskerville”. He dons the deer stalking again!
At last! I’ve been waiting and waiting and waiting for you to get to The Talons of Weng-Chiang! This is the first Doctor Who story I ever watched all the way through as an 11-year-old and it still is perhaps my favourite, though Seeds of Doom is right up there.
I understand your discomfort with the casting, and as a black man I get it, but I do love this story So Much! You have Sherlock Holmes, Fu Manchu, Phantom of the Opera, mixed in with what was pulp fiction (or 'penny dreadfuls') and sci fi!! The 'women as victims' trope is here, but Leela turns it around! What makes the story are Jago and Lightfoot!! Probably the most popular one story characters ever!!
your rant at the end... I couldn't possibly love you more right now 😄💖
One of my favorites of all the Tom Baker stories!
Yayyy! Henry Gordon Jago & Professor George Litefoot are Finally Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yaaayyyy!
One of the best Tom Baker stories! Much Loved by Just about everyone!!!!!
Tom's Outfit in this is EPIC, Now you know where 11 got his Sherlock outfit in "The snowmen"
Leela's Outfit...So cute!
Yes, this is Possibly the most controversial Doctor Who ever!
Yiu'll recognize Chistopher Benjamin (Jago) From:
Inferno - Sir Keith Gold
and
The Unicorn and the Wasp - Colonel Hugh
Rip Trevor Baxter, Forver Professor Litefoot
"The Talons of Weng-Chiang" was talked about being the start of a New T.V. spin-off for Jago and Litefoot, but that never happend, Luckilly, Big Finish fixed that with 13 glorious series of The "Jago and Litefoot Audios". Which sees them encountering some other well known doctor who characters including a certain trio from "Paternoster Row".
One of my favorite Doctor Who episodes.
Very well navigated discussion at the end, Jess, no arguments from me! And you were absolutely right not to cut that bit at the end.
The definition of "Problematic Fave"
I am so glad you didn't cut the ending hahahahahaah
Intro to the greatest Doctor Who spin off characters.
Jago & Litefoot
I remember watching this when it first came out. This is still one of my favorite, even though it has the unfortunate betrayal in it. I'm probably one of the few that still likes it.
28:15 I'm glad you didn't cut that!
Ok just to clear up a few things. The terms we consider racist today were considered less racist in 1977 but also are correct dialogue for the victorian setting....... With regards to the actual casting, the important thing to know is that at this point there were NO chinese actors within Equity in the UK at the time this serial was made, and for a character to speak dialogue they had to be a member of Equity. All of the background Chinese weren't actors, they were mostly waiters from the directors local chinese restaurant, and a couple of them where chinese acrobats from a touring circus but none of them were actual actors, and none spoke english. The same problem occurred 2 years later in Louise Jamesons next project 'Tenko' where it was found there was only actually one single japanese actor in Equity and he didn't speak english. That actor was actually cast in the role of 'Sato' who only spoke english words when told them to repeat, he never understood them. Bert Kwouk who played the lead Japanese character was infact Chinese and had been signed to Equity as a direct result of no chinese actors being available for this Doctor Who story and then a need for another production straight after, and in Tenko, once again the majority of 'japanese' guards were chinese waiters from around london and not actors at all. The east Asian community in the Uk up until the end of the 1970s was almost non existant and very much limited to the small 'Chinatown' areas of cities such as London and Manchester and sadly were not welcome to mix outside of their own area.
It was a different time than I really don't care what other people say about this story. I think it's a really good story and terrific. It's doctor who meets Sherlock Holmes if you don't like it. You don't have to watch it but I think it's wonderful. It has really good lines in it too especially in your part six
It was the late 70s not 1850, it was modern times, that argument has never been valid, there's still racism now.
@Jeremy-f3s Bore off.
To anyone who likes this story: make sure you have a hard copy to enjoy in the future before the snowflake society take it offline 😉
@@Si_of_Earth funny how the people who use the term snow flake are the first ones crying and whinging themselves. Stop sulking and grow a back bone you marshmallow. I didn't say this story should be cancelled, I said racism is racism it doesn't get to hide behind a time period. I don't think the story is racist cos people dont understand the term racist, just like you don't understand the term snow flake...
In those times it was seen as okay for an actor to play any role they see fit because the job of the actor is to make out to be a different character. This is not the view held by many people today. On a positive note, Chang isn't played as an offensive stereotype like Mickey Rooney is Breakfast at Tiffanys. Chang (as will be seen) is a villain but a subtle and tragic figure.
That difference is what makes the story for me. Chang plays into the stereotypes as part of his cover, but The Doctor knows better! And this is light years from what Peter Sellars did in popular comedies of the time.
Not to pick on you, but you seem nice. 🙂 To be precise, in those days it was okay for white actors to play other races. No black man played a white Iago, for example, the way many white men blacked up and played Othello, often to considerable acclaim. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d be willing to bet that a man like James Hong was never asked to don makeup and play a white farmer from Kansas in his seventy-odd years in the business. “White Chicks” had a lot of fun with this idea.
That Chang is such an uncommonly well written part had to be a double edged sword for any aspiring Asian actors doing stuff in England at the time. An acquaintance once said of Laurence Olivier getting the best reviews of his life on stage as Othello a dozen years before, “There is ONE classical role that black men can play and Larry took it away from us!” Deliberately or not, the gatekeepers did their job very well, both in England and Hollywood and elsewhere for many years.
Do we wipe the tapes for “Talons of Weng Chiang” and pretend it was never made? Disney acts like “Song of the South” never happened for not entirely unrelated racial concerns. Is erasing history a path we want to go down? Some do, and we’ll see what comes of it in a generation or two. I’d rather not, but I’m a white guy who’s very good at rationalizing away what offends others. Just to show where I’m coming from, I can never watch “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” again because of Mr. Yuniyoshi. My GOD, what can they have been thinking??? 😳
I mean it’s the late 70s, the “product of it’s time” argument shouldn’t really hold much water it’s a bit late for that, it’s especially absurd because there’s other Chinese characters in the story that are actually played by Asian actors it doesn’t make sense
THANK YOU
Its a pastiche of Christopher Lee's Fu Manchu it makes perfect sense.
@@rnw2739 The snark is unreal, of course I know the difference between extras and full actors, I was just pointing out that since they went through the trouble of hiring authentically Asian extras they certainly could have found an Asian actor to take the role. I hope you don’t agree with the Talons of Wayne Chiang above (who’s doing a great job of hiding his bias) that there were no Asian actors in London at the time that could “handle” the part, if they could find Zenia Merton 15 years earlier for Marco Polo, they could have at the very least found a Korean, Japanese, etc. actor for the role. Other than that I think the sorry is fantastic, I was just saying the “product of the time argument” can’t just be taken for granted the same way as it could for Darren Nesbitt’s Tegana or Bernard Kay’s Saladin is all. Not like 1977 was a beacon of progressivism but we also shouldn’t pretend it was the functional equivalent of a decade prior. I think it’s a reasonable enough take
Thank you for acknowledging the good and the bad in this story. I know with stories like this it can at times be hard to find a balance.
I think both sides of the eternal argument over "The Talons of Weng-Chiang" are right. On the one hand, it's a great story, with a beautiful gothic horror atmosphere, great acting, great production, etc. On the other hand, it is still racist. Yellowface is wrong and the justification that "there weren't many Asian actors at the time" is offensive and misguided, considering that a few years earlier Doctor Who cast Asian actors in the story "The Mind of Evil". I think it's possible for you to like or admire this particular story and at the same time recognize its problematic and offensive aspects. And I'm really glad that Sesska did that instead of pretending it's nothing. My admiration for her only grows.
I wish more people could be as pragmatic as this.
Leela basically has her own episode when she follows Chang to Greel's lair. All on her own she uses her hunter/warrior skill to track and almost take out Greel, in the meantime gaining valuable intelligence. When the Doctor rescues her from the giant rat, she's the only one who knows what's really going on. Leela is the most "bad ass" in this segment, showing that she can handle herself just fine.
P.S. I got to go to China twice in the late 90s on business trips and while staying at a western style hotel, I watched parts of a movie on TV that was about the Opium Wars, and all British were played by Chinese wearing either red or blond wigs with full beards. It goes both ways.
I don't suppose you know where I can watch the fourth doctor episodes entirely for free? Or at least somewhere I can buy them for a reasonable price?
DailyMotion
This is considered a really classic story. Although, it's one of those that hasn't aged well with the times. Obviously, because of the Asian stereotypes. Basically, you'll just have to enjoy it on its own merits.
the whole point is stereotyping- everyone is stereotyped in this story (Casey is Oirish sure and begorah) because its an homage to Sherlock Holmes, Fu Manchu and other gaslight Victorian trope. The digs at Victorian imperialist thought are quite evident.
@@TheZodiacz doesn’t explain why the Doctor joins in with the stereotyping, though, does it?
@@TheZodiacz I guess Tom isn't aware of mimicry to fit into a social environment to get people on your side.
@@tommarshall4561 Maybe he was just trying to blend in with the humans. So that is why he acts and talks like them.
@@the5thdoctor Could Explain why in "Twice Upon a Time" the First Doctor makes some questionable comments. I figure he is trying to put the WW1 Captain at ease, and talking that way for his benefit.
My favorite tom Baker story and third favorite episode of all time
Jago and litefoot is my favorite big finish series
It is a great story overall.
@@AnotherScifiGuy oh my gosh I comment on your videos all the time
@@thomasstevens2746 I know! Good to see you Thomas! I enjoy Jess’s channel as well.
@@AnotherScifiGuy good to see you two xxx
When TV Ontario was broadcasting Doctor Who in the 70s, it was packaged as “educational“ by employing intro and outro hosts (first Dr. Dator meets Doctor Who for the Pertwee episodes, then scifi author Judith Merril for the Tom Baker episodes). Dator concentrated on the tech and made comparisons to other science fiction shows, while Merril focused on social aspects of the stories that were broadcast. I didn’t know this at the time, but TVO didn’t show Talons because Judith Merril didn’t like the yellow face casting for the story. I did see the shows on the PBS station available to me but might have benefited back then from a little enlightenment about one of my favourite Doctor Who stories. 🤷♂
Agree entirely with what you said at the end. I think I might skip the comments section for the next few weeks, hah! 😂
Also, don't get me wrong when I say this. Sarah *is* my favorite companion from Classic.. but Leela is the BEST.
Beautifully put. Your reaction, your channel. I don't think it was rude at all (and I did grown up with this kind of thing on TV all the time in the UK and I love this story but that doesn't mean I don't SEE what it is either).
And you've reached the pinnacle of Dr Who.
Despite the racism, which is abhorrent and can not be excused.
This is still one of my favourite Doctor Who stories, it's a really great and engaging gothic horror story
Oh dear. So much pearl clutching…
@@frankie3041 Oh dear so much excusing of blatant racism
@@frankie3041 "Oh dear. So much tolerance ..."
@@rnw2739 Just because you struggle to have sincere empathy, does not mean everybody else is insincere when they see blatant racism and mention how cringe it is.
@@Wannabe_Baby Oh, you’re hiding behind “tolerance”. Be quiet, fool.
Though I love this story, I agree with you 100% about the unfortunate use of "yellow face" and I assure you that you're not the only person who's uncomfortable with it. At the time of release, there was more of a protest when it was aired in Canada than when it was shown in the U.K., with TVOntario refusing to air it, but with the passage of time, criticism of that element of the production in the U.K. and everywhere has only increased. The story also features racial stereotypes and a few racial slurs. I believe Britbox now includes a trigger warning about the potentially offensive nature of the content.
I gather it wasn't shown much in the 70s and 80s in Australia when the show was on repeats.
I'm the opposite of being uncomfortable with the makeup, in fact I love it because it makes it all the more creepy.
Many of the slurs are in keeping with the Victorian time period, though it's a problem that the Doctor repeats them.
@@robertgould1345 Yeah, the Doctor joining in on them is my big issue
@@kierenevans2521 Actually, it was shown regularly in the late 70s to early 80s. The ABC would year in year out repeat "Who" from "Spearhead From Space" onwards. Only stories such as "Invasion of The Dinosaurs", with its' scrubbed first episode colour master tape and the non G rated "The Deadly Assassin" were left out. We didn't see the fourth Doctor's first return visit to Gallifrey until the late 80s, perhaps the early 90s. Memory can be a bit fuzzy. The Nine Network was still broadcasting "The Black and White Ministrel Show" in the early 80s. Television and Film production was dominated by Caucasian Men. Even a then, liberal progressive producer of that time, would probably appear regressive and out of date by today's standards. Not excusing the past or ignore wrongs, but pointing out the importance of context and that life is full of nuance and complexity. Life is rarely binary. Absolutism helps no one.
P.S. I'm not accusing You or anyone here of absolutism. Just pointing out rigid thinking as a whole doesn't help with understanding. Ah, the nuance problem. Is Ones' intent properly conveyed via text?
There are very few people today who would defend the casting choice, but it's also a TERRIFIC story. Many fans have quite conflicting thoughts about this particular story. You did well to address the elephant in the room.
Christopher Benjamin was Sir Keith Gold in Inferno and Colonel Hugh in The Unicorn and the Wasp.
Jess, despite my strong opinion against people getting offended by portrayals on TV and film that wouldn't necessarily fly today, I totally agree you or anyone else has the right to react in whatever way you feel about that portrayal. I also respect the fact that you can still find enjoyment in the fun and positive aspects of the teleplay and its production despite the former and that's what I and I'm sure many others are here to watch. Carry on, sister. This is your channel and you react in whatever way you see fit.
I have found it strange the way modern people react to old portrayals of other races by Caucasians - like it is only done by Caucasians. You don't think Bollywood does it? How about Japan?
Christopher Benjamin was in three different Doctor Who stories and got to act with three different doctors! He was in Inferno, with Pertwee. He's Jago here with Baker. And he's the Colonel in The Unicorn and the Wasp with David Tennant. How cool is that??
This story is the only story in Classic Who that features a concept that is widely known in New Who.
What's that?
@@ZoomerUnion can’t say it until Jess has seen/heard it for herself.
@@danniemadsen1996 So why bring it up now then & not when the relevent episode has been reacted to?
@@Paul_1971 because by that time it is redundant. I didn’t say what it was.
@@danniemadsen1996 she’s finished the story already
Chung Ling Soo was a "Chinese" Victorian stage magician. Real name William Ellsworth Robinson. American. Who's to say that Li H'sen Chang wasn't a reference to him?
A really good, fun story to watch, obviously based on the Jack the Ripper murders with a touch of classic Hammer Horror. A great end to season 14. And yes they could've got a Chinese actor to play Li H'sen Chang, maybe low budget or not finding the right actor led them to cast John Bennett, I really don't know.
There were very few, if any, Chinese actors in Britain at the time who were capable of playing a major leading role like Li H'Sen Chang. There was only really Bert Kwouk, and he was probably out of reach after hitting the big time as Cato in the Pink Panther franchise. (No disrespect to Bert, but he wasn't exactly "leading role" material either.) In fact, we had to wait until the early 1980s before a British/Asian actor emerged who was talented enough to play a leading role on British TV, and that was the young David Yip in "The Chinese Detective".
@@tommarshall4561 I'm going on what Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks have said in interviews, articles and DVD commentaries. I suggest you hire a medium and direct your cocky, sanctimonious arrogance at them.
@@tommarshall4561 A few years later they needed Chinese actors for a different story. The word is the producer hired the staff at his local Chinese restaurant, because there weren't Chinese actors they could hire (as in there weren't any to be hired) - except Bert Kwouk - who in fact did get the larger Chinese role in that story.
@@wellington-rq2br Indeed. Researcher Richard Bignell went through the spotlight directory for 1978/9 and found less than 100 ethnic actors on the books for that year. That is ethnic of ALL non-white races, all ages and sexes. That is how the UK was then and anyone who thinks differently is delusional. The pool of available talent was pitifully small.
Tom, without naming the predictable names of David Yip and Burt Kwouk perhaps you could share your extensive knowledge of the many Chinese actors out there that were capable?
Parts this story has aged rather poorly, but Jago and Litefoot are among the best one-off characters in the Doctor Who canon. Also, their spinoff audio series is some of Big Finish's best work. RIP Trevor Baxter.
Still one of my faves. No I don't care about the makeup, it was just the norm in the days when this was made. Ricardo Montalban, a Hispanic guy played a Sikh Indian for example.
Tom Baker dressed like Holmes was fantastic.
I think I agree with Jess' way of viewing controversial aspects of older films and TV shows.
I do hope that she mentions more of Li H'sen Chang as a character as the story goes on, as I feel that he's an very interesting character and John Bennett gives an excellent layered performance that makes him a more 3 dimensional presence in the story regardless of what the now dated make-up suggests.
The problem was there was hardly any asian actors in Great Britain at the time of filiming. They would have used more asian actors had there been any available.
@@bethtidwell539 Bruh there were literally 10 of them standing around the actor, what are you talking about
More than likely didn't have an Equity card between them, so unable to have a speaking part and that's without the factor of accomplished acting chops and gravitas factor in their capability to play a lead villain opposite the leading man, which is probably why they didn't use any of the Chinese cast for Li H'sen Chang.
@@mekonta Exactly. They were basically non-speaking "extras".
People, women in particular, disappeared a LOT back then and nobody really cared unless they were rich. Family and friends cared, but good luck getting anyone to do anything about it. Say the cabbie got to the police and carried on as he did at the theater, if the cops gave him a second thought at all they probably said the guy seemed volatile and angry and his wife probably ran off and good luck to her. Serial killers had a field day.
You really need to react to "Father Ted" for a bit of the old racism! lmao
One of my all time favourite comedies.
@@darrenbradley1282 Comedy GOLD!!! ha ha ...GURLS! ..DRINK!....FECK!!
I hear you're a racist now, Father.
I hear you're a racist now, Doctor. How d'ya get into that of thing?
An all time classic story on every level. Glorious stuff!! A fantastic swansong for Hinchcliffe and Holmes.
And here we are. At the end of the Hinchcliffe era, with Robert Holmes brilliant Holmesian pastiche. A script that plays with Conan Doyle's tropes and makes some pointed commentary on orientalism/racism. Only to be perhaps, fatally compromised by the lazy use of yellowface. Philip Hinchcliffe has said in interviews that he and the production team should have done better and tried harder to cast a ethnically Chinese British actor. Interesting/coincidental that You post this shortly after "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once's" Oscar success. Among it's cast is the great James Hong. A brilliant Chinese American actor, who has spoken about this very issue. You are right to feel uncomfortable, but I believe the story has a lot to offer and surely open, free viewing and discussion of "difficult" or "problematic" texts is better than censorship? Banning something, shuts down the possibility of discussion and learning from past mistakes. We must look honestly at the past, as discomforting as that may be. That's how we learn to do better. Better to have content warnings, than shutting down choice?
Regrettable casting aside, this is still my favorite Dr. WHO story. It introduces us to Jago and Lightfoot and features the absolutely terrifying Mr. Sin. And it's Tom at his best.
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang Agreed. And I suspect he was cast as a nod towards Christopher Lee's portrayal of Fu Manchu. The whole story is a wonderful pastiche of all things that epitomise Victorian fact and fiction, and the gothic horror based upon it. It is perfectly put together.
I'm glad you didn't cut that bit off at the end, it was hilarious and something people use way too often to defend something like this.
I hadn't seen this story for nearly 10 years since I don't usually revisit Classic Who stories once I've seen them, so I didn't remember how bad the yellowface was and was even feeling quite uncomfortable just watching you reaction. I remember enjoying this story as it was though, so I hope you're not too put off while going through the rest of the story.
@@rnw2739 Mate, do you need to be put in a straight jacket? going off the handle and commenting on nearly everyone’s comments isn’t going to sway them to your side.
@@rnw2739 “That’s all you”? 👀 explain that further.
@@rnw2739 Yes, I needed something explaining (I’m disabled, bet that ruffles your feathers). I didn’t realise we all had the same brain. And, I’m a “leftie” 😉 I’m proud to be one. Why do you all have a problem with us minorities just wanting to work or literally exist? next, you’ll tell me disabilities aren’t real. They’re made up by the government or medical profession.
"I usually don't revisit Classic Who stories once I've seen them" is where your credibilty ended.
@@BernardJKD wtf are you talking about “credibility” 😂
3:49 this is probably a reference to the season 1 story Marco Polo,although that took place in the 13th century so the Doctor is out by about a couple of centuries
Possibly, though it's just as likely Bob Holmes just invented an off-screen encounter on the spur of the moment. He was really good at inventing little bits of apparent context and not bothering to explain them, just leave them dangling to tease the audience (or make the kids turn round and say "when was that then, Mummy?", and thereby teach them that parents don't always know all the answers! =;o} ).
@@therealpbristow The Third Doctor revealed he had met Mao Tse-Tung.
You up to my favourite 4th Doctor Story Tom and Louise and guest star actors are so fantastic
While I couldn't articulate myself on the issue at the time, even as someone in junior primary school in rural Australia when it aired in the early 80s, it was jarring. Not as jarring as the The Black and White Minstrel Show - a BBC variety show themed on blackface which was repeated on Australian television, and saw tours over this way into the late '80s - but still, it caused pause. Not trying to be "woke" or whatever, it's just that's what my reaction was at the time. Going by old news reports, while nobody was talking about it in the schoolyard, I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who thought it was off.
It's just a weird take for anyone to object to this kind of reaction, in what is after all, a reaction video. "It is what it is" also applies to what it is that you feel, and how you react, so... maybe people could just accept your reaction in that context, and enjoy the rest of the video themselves?
Either way, I don't think you have any apologizing to do.
Hmmmm 51st century time agents?....where have we heard that before?? (Mrs Hudson....Sherlock Holmes anyone) ...and all this story is remembered for is the OTT racism which was bad but there is also things to enjoy
I love this story and it's one of the best classic Who ones too. But that casting, makeup and 'accent' has always made me cringe. Deeply unfortunate in an otherwise excellent piece.
A popular one one of my top 3 of the 4th doctor loved leela in this story
I don't know if you still see the comments on these older videos, (I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped looking at the ones related to this story in particular) but if you ever feel like revisiting "Talons" in your own time, though obviously without the yellowface part, you could possibly look into the novelization, or an audiobook of it.
Just a thought. The original televised version is a difficult watch for a lot of people due to that part of it, which is understandable, it's just a shame since it is quite a good story outside of that.
TV greatness. It doesn't get better.
And yet you continue to defend and praise the trash that came after.
It's a frustrating aspect of this time, it's a shame that this late into the show these dated casting choices were still going on, especially since s4-13 seemed to have been better when it came to casting.
Yeah, I think it's because it's such a main character, the people behind the scenes said there weren't many big Asian actors at that time. I'm not sure if I believe it, but it does make it an even harder pill to swallow when we have solid Asian characters like Chin Lee in The Mind of Evil.
It jars even more, so considering the previous story had a cast with a variety of ethnicities, which I believe was a deliberate choice by the director.
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang How do you know? They didn't even try. It's really messed up how your argument is "better to be racist than have an underwhelming acting performance".
@@thetalonsofwaynechiang You're replying to every comment to defend "yellowface" and even comparing a black actress playing a black character (The Little Mermaid) to a white actor playing a Chinese one. Yes, you're racist. No, "the acting performance might be underwhelming" is not a fair counter argument.
Let's say they did look. Either they couldn't find a single male Chinese actor, which I doubt -- they went to a casting agency for Asian actors for "The Mind of Evil", six years earler -- or they found them and decided the same as you; that none of them would put on a good enough performance, therefore a white person should play a Chinese person. Which is racist.
The fact that I even have to explain this to you is shocking.
@@Wannabe_Baby _"Either they couldn't find a single male Chinese actor, which I doubt -- they went to a casting agency for Asian actors for The Mind of Evil"_ - True, and the actors who auditioned weren't good enough. In the end, they had to resort to hiring the owner of said casting agency to play the part himself. And he was no great shakes, if I'm honest.
You’d think by 1977 we’d have been past this Sax Rohmer nonsense, but…
Robert Holmes fantastic pastiche of the Penny Dreadful - a wonderful blend of Sherlock Holmes, Jack the Ripper, The Phantom of the Opera and Fu Manchu, and one could argue that the casting of the imposing John Bennett is a fairly obvious nod towards Christopher Lee's version of Fu Manchu. Anyone who bleats on about racism in a story set amongst the back street gangs of Victorian London is probably happier watching the history revisionism of more recent TV output to sooth their fevered brow. Doctor Who doesn't get any better than The Talons of Weng-Chiang.
@@tommarshall4561 Is that what you think? Interesting. It's not what I think. So Jog on.
@@harnois75 “So jog on”, I thought you lot believed in free speech? I guess only when you want to be a bigot.
@@tokublwhovian "You Lot'? You sound like the bigot.
@@tommarshall4561 Get eating.
One of the best stories made of the era. Do I wish they’d cast people meeting the ethnic characters correctly, yes. But this was how it was at the time. It doesn’t make it right. But it’s how it was. Maybe as I grew up watching it (as a preteen) in the 70s I feel different than someone watching it in a 2020’s world.
I would feel differently if they made it like that now. We grow and learn but we can’t change it. (See the growth in female characters through the show as well)
All that being said, if you don’t like it, that’s you’re feeling and as valid as mine.
I think I find it frustrating when I’m told I can’t enjoy some that l liked when I was younger as now our society has changed (even if I agree for the better).
There you were, thinking that Ramposhi or Cho-chi from 'Planet of the Spiders' was offensively as a Tibetan played by a white actor. Then along comes this.
'back in the day' when I saw it as a kid, I think I remember everyone saying 'he's obviously not Chinese, that's awful make-up'. It is especially bad considering there were Chinese actors around at the time and there were plenty of actual Chinese actors playing the henchmen doing the fighting. I also remember that in the 1970s it was quite common for commedians to do yellow, brown or back face in their sketches as there was a general attitude that foreigners look and sound funny. That doesn't make it right though and "Talons" is one of the controvercial Dr Who stories, which is a pity because for the sake of employing an actual Chinese actor, this would be remembered better and able to be shown on nationa TV again.
You make good point about the times. However, simply casting a Chinese actor wouldn't fix all the problems here - The main being that the Doctor *goes along with* the racism of the Victorian characters. He didn't even need to call it out, specifically - He's a Time Lord, used to walking people from all sorts of weird time- and space-specific prejudices, but just *not join in*. Or maybe have *Leela* comment on how the Police sergeant talks about Chinese people the same way the Tesh talked about the Sevateem...
I hear you, but I'm not hearing anything about how dwarfs are represented...
That thought often crosses my mind whenever "Talons" is discussed. The diminutive Indian/British actor Deep Roy playing the murderous "Peking Homunculus" Mr Sin is okay, but the Englishman John Bennett playing Li Hsen Chang is somehow the worst thing ever. How does that add up?
@@ftumschk you can't make a valid argument for one without extrapolating that to include all other perceived 'problematic' concerns. I don't think the intent was racist, I think for the times it wasn't perceived that way, we are applying 21st century postmodern lenses on things with modern day sensitivity. Ultimately the story and the hard work put into its production is unfairly tarnished by applying a pretty narrow spectrum of received wisdom.
@@ftumschk actually Holmes’ obsession with Othering the disfigured, the disabled, those of different body types etc (including Mr Sin) IS quite often brought up - not with the same frequency but in the Black Archive academic monograph on Talons, for example, there is an entire chunk devoted to how much of an issue the fear of “disfigurement” is in such fiction and the idea that outer scarring means inner evil.
I'd be interested to hear more on this. Mr Sin is a ventriloquist's dummy that comes to life - a standard horror trope. Right now, I can't see an ableist issue with that, but I'm aware that my privilege is probably blinding me to it rather that that meaning that there isn't an issue. Obviously the yellow-face and yellow-peril aspects of this are clearly very problematic.
@@ihateunicorns867 Just because it's a trope does it make it right? Does it make it wrong? Precisely my point. How many Chinese people do you know? There were Chinese actors that worke alongside him. Maybe ask them if they're still about? Thing is, some people will find it utterly offensive, others won't. Who decides? White people and our addiction to guilt? or Chinese people and by what order of ratio? We keep applying a postmodern lens on things that are now a matter of historical record. Entertainment of it's time, there to be enjoyed or despised, but there nonetheless. What do you suggest? Throwing it out compeltely? Erase it? Or enjoy it for what it is, regardless? Can you enjoy it? By what percentage should you enjoy it? 10%, 20%, 80%? I just don't know what you expect to be done about it.
Yeah despite how good this story is it won't ever escape that controversy, and even those involved in making it have since regretted the decisions made. I've rewatched this one before and am sure I will do again, though it's probably best to think of it as a 'look how far we've come since then' or similar. I feel it important to not ignore or try to forget these things, like the saying 'Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it'.
@@rnw2739 We're not the ones who need to have some perspective. Try stepping outside your "everyone has it out for white people" mentality for 5 minutes.
@@ecyor0but that's our WHITE PRIVILEGE ! ;)
Jago and Lightfoot went on to get their own Big Finish series.
Yep, and they met Tom Baker's Doctor again and the 6th one a few times too!
That one part would be re-cast now, but it was 1977. It is a classic and terrific story and always will be!
For context it was a pastiche of the Fu Man Chu character, itself an uninformed depiction of Chinese culture based on the opium wars history in which the British tried to force the Chinese to trade in opium to which the Chinese refused resulting in war between both countries. As a result of this the Chinese were demonified and the Fu Man Chu character was born out of this. Eventually it was used as a villain character for films in the 50s and this is what the makers of Doctor Who are copying. So its a cliche of a cliche essentially, not intended at racist by the Doctor Who production, cos the Fu Man Chu character was played by a white man in films too so again they were copying that genre. Because Dr Who copies genres to come up with its variety of stories. But actors did portray other nationalities all the time back then and it had nothing to do with racism they just wanted particular names for the roles. Shirley McClaine portrays an Indian princess in Around the World in 80 Days and Robert Helpmann plays a Chinese Prince in 55 Days in Peking, neither of these roles were intended as racist.
This actually could have been a lot less uncomfortable if they'd borrowed just a little more from the period. There was a famous magician who spent his whole career pretending to be Chinese, seemingly fooling everyone as he went right up to the point where he was accidentally shot when a trick went wrong on stage. He then spoke the first words he ever spoke in English - "Something's gone wrong" - which also turned out to be his last words... The magician here could have been that guy.
Talons of Weng Chiang once upon a time was voted the best of Tom Baker's stories. Great lighting, sets period costume, locations, drama direction, cast. 5 stars across the board. That being said, John Bennett as Li H'sen Chang is a cringe-worthy, uncomfortable performance. I always feel my flesh crawl when somebody is doing a misinterpreted, bigotted stereotype of another race/or culture. Its wrong now. It was wrong then but fortunately people now are educated enough to realize that this is unacceptable in this day and age.
Leela is one of my favorite companions ever. While the yellow face is just painfully obvious now at the time I first saw it as a kid it’s meaning went over my head. It is what it is and getting butt hurt of it forty years later is a waste of energy. And I am an Asian who was brought up in England . Still looks like a Sherlock Holmes story with a Dr who touch. Run time was maybe one episode too long by an enjoyable romp through Victoria era London.
Jess: "I don't have to react a certain way or accept that this is how things were at the time, this is my channel and my reactions are my reactions."
At least twenty sweaty angry men in the comments smearing grease stains across their screens as they type: "LET IT GO THIS IS HOW THINGS WERE AT THE TIME WHY ARE YOU VIRTUE SIGNALLING"
This has been considered one of the greatest Who stories ever made -and controversial, depiction of Asians, with a British actor in adapted make-up as Chang.
They had like a week to film on location, for this Six Part. This was the last story made by Producer Phillip Hinchcliffe, who took on with Tom Baker. Directed by David Maloney, who had worked since Troughton’s time. Robert Holmes, wrote this, one of the greats. They went “all out” on this.
Your reaction to Chang’s plan to abduct “young plump” Women -understable shock.
Your discussion, after -thank you for honest truth.
It's not spelled out, but if you know the genre they're riffing from, he's talking about the popular kind of prostitutes at that time in London. And later on, sure enough there's a character who was carefully coded as "we're not actually *saying* she's a lady of the night, but... well, she is just getting home from work in the wee small hours...".
The writers and designers of this story were using research of the music halls of Britain in the 1880s. There were numerous 'Chinese' acts back then, which used stock costumes and fake make-up to exotically entertain, sometimes insensitively.
There was, for example, an Englishman who performed as 'Chung-Ling Soo', and was famous for the 'catching a bullet in his teeth' act, which was a French stage-magic invention and had nothing to do with China, except that China was much in the news, with General 'Chinese' Gordon (later famous for failing to defend Khartoum).
He died, shot in the neck.
Even at the time of this TV show, there were exotic 'Chinese' entertainers, usually tumblers and acrobats, some of whom were even Chinese. A few years later they were replaced, after Bruce Lee and the Kung-Fu film craze, with ninjas.
'The Talons of Weng-Chiang' IMO, should have shown an Englishman pretending to be Chinese, and so giving him another identity, without the need for the faux 'yellowface' makeup it has become.
I can't help but think if they had cast Burt Kwok (who was in a couple of eps of Doctor Who) a prolific British Chinese actor in the 60s 70s 80s and beyond, it would have been much more authentic. But the story itself is fantastic.
@@rnw2739 David Yip? Kristopher Kum?
@@rnw2739 The story suffered because a white man decided to go yellow face. Not only is it cringe to most normal human beings, it also throws off credibility.
@@tommarshall4561 David Yip was only in his early/mid 20s when this was filmed, so would have been too young to play Li Hsen Chang. David Yip did get a small part in Doctor Who a couple of years later, but it would be a couple of years after that before he started playing major roles on TV. And Li Hsen Chang is definitely a major role.
@@tommarshall4561 They tried Kum's agency when casting The Mind of Evil, but none of the actors were good enough, so they had to resort to casting Kum himself. Not that the role he played was anywhere near as demanding as that of Li Hsen Chang.
I'm not making "excuses" either, just stating facts. I lived through that time, and watched a lot of TV, so I know for a fact there were very few experienced Chinese actors active on British television. Bert Kwouk was probably the most successful, and I'm a great fan of his, but even he couldn't have held a candle to John Bennett in this role.
@@tommarshall4561 yes 2 more fine actors.
This is a great story - one of the best and I was a very young boy when it was on. I honestly didn't know back then that Li H'sen was not Chinese and I thought his character was brilliant. I was disappointed later when I found out because it seems silly to spend money on makeup when you have actual Chinese people around. I'd rather they used that extra money on the rat, which needs it (it looks like a beautiful well-groomed rat rather than a sewer rat). I thought that Li H'sen 's voice and characterization was spot on but now that I have actual Chinese friends, I realize how far away it is. It's disappointing but don't let it ruin a very good story for you.
they did look for a Chinese actor for the role but back then there were not many in the acting union and they were all busy, and if you didn't have an equity card they couldn't hire you for a speaking role