Here Flash actually played poorly, failed to focus fire the carriers after the EMP, wasting time on the interceptors... he GG'ed with over 2k mins and 600 gas. Poor showing.
Arty, this cast was insane; so much insight! Bunker repair, turret repair, where the scan would go. Absolute insight, LOVED IT! Keep going man, we're all here for it now and 10 years from now.
I love that the 'lol all flash' meme has taken control so fully that you don't even hype up that it's BISU VS FUCKING FLASH. all the nostalgia centers in my brain are lit UP
@@Ricky-oc4xc you'd really only need 1-2 of them also. Just getting the carrier count to 7 would really give the gold a chance and it's not too gass expensive either.
maybe if you scan and see the fleet beacon while its building you will have time otherwise the covert ops upgrades just take too long to come with your maxout
@@dj_koen1265 ya but cloak. And with vessel and gold range you should be able to pick observers. You'd only need a second to get in range. But cloak and lock down is a lot of gas and time.
I don't play BW literally at all but I got the early probe scout question right cause I've seen him mention a bunch of times about the gas directions on this map, lol.
Artosis, I love your in depth analysis, I've consumed 50+ of your videos in the last month. Could you PLEASE add at the end of your titles a "TvP" etc label? It would make it so much easier to search your content.
Flash getting so on, advanced on bisu base seals his fate. If he fought in the center he would have retreated the tanks until Goliaths eventually do the job. His greed and be so close to the sun allowed bisu to feast on his tanks. The dts were dirty but effective. That emp didnt worth losing mobile detection
Hey Artosis! Great cast as always! After an eternity spent playing SC2, Brood War has finally piqued my interest. Can you recommend any English educational resources for learning matchups and build orders? Thanks!
Precisely, even if he had 4-5 observers, the Wraiths would have quickly dealth with them and even if 6 were only left, that would have hurt plenty. Also I suppose they would attack with the main push, so they couldn't be spotted or targeted by the carriers easily.
yea, full group of wraiths...and no ground army to handle gateway units sitting right outside his base, so bisu would be more than happy sitting his carriers over his cannoned up expansions
Good to see good ol Starcraft! Great plays esp the flying barrack blocking to target the siege tank - damn! I would like to have seen Terran to lean in to the opponent with expanding siege tank action. Just macro them about 2 and 2 with giga cannon and make your way forward. Protoss is a damn strong faction tho but that's why Terran has to be one step ahead/more technical. Oh and yea *must* zero in on each carrier at a time! Else you'll be farmed. If the game went on for a bit perhaps Lockdown had been in play.
Obviously even Flash can't think of everything, but at 4:30, he could have tried pulling the other 3 marines to the right side. If a goon comes in from the top (which it did), he can bring the rines up behind and pincer it with the bunkered rines coming out. At least, that's my thought.
Would be hard to pull off, but could Wraiths in this situation help for flanks when carriers engage the Goliath's? Would require a lot of micro to keep wraiths alive while trying tk pick off carriers one at a time.
if flash cancelled the two tanks he made when he scouted then made a second starport and wraiths instead of tanks he maybe would have had 6 wraiths by the end of that game and 8 less tanks for his push, I dont think it would have helped that game.
Bisu opened so much smoother than Flash. That early engagement really slowed him down a lot, allowing Bisu to outscale insanely well from there. By the time the carriers engaged with Flash's forces, it was already a dice roll that Flash could get anything done to even stay in the game, let alone win. I don't think Wraiths would have helped him in such a position with lower econ and a tight window to try and stay in the game.
Even a Flash will run into that carrier problem and not have a solution for it. He did try to marshal his tanks around to take out econ and units during the carrier engage and it still wasnt enough lol. Smh.
But you can't stop him from doing so. Protoss always pressures with dragoons when terran is forced to turtle up behind bunkers and tanks. All they need to do is delay you, with Dragoons guarding the exit. You can't engage that without leapfrogging tanks, which spends even more time. By the time you actually push out across the map, he's already got carriers coming out.
@@vklymenko TBH even in his prime that aggressive multi pronged attack style was never his forte. On the other hand, guy like Fantasy and Sharp live and breathe that style.
Honestly as much as I'd love to see Flash return as the best player in the world I think there would be way more money for him as a streamer and as a coach. Imagine how many people would line up for with fists full of cash for 2 hours of coaching from Flash.
Nothing is an adequate counter. As you can see on Liquipedia, the only way to win is to beat them before they mass carriers. Once Bisu got 11 carriers without any pushback it was pretty much over. MASS CARRIERS = INSTANT WIN.
@@gippygames Many things are, but you dont have enough money or time with Terran for that tech. BCs shit on Carriers with good micro, but good luck getting 10 BCs with Yamato vs his 12 Carriers.
one questions, why do terrans not build like 1 or 2 ghosts against carriers and lockdown 4 of them? That is like half their firepower for onlyy 2 ghosts right? I am sure there is a reason, but what is it?
Flash is just baiting Bisu (best Protoss) to see the exact timings and builds for carrier, so that in ASL, Flash can effectively counter with wraiths/coursairs/ghosts.
@@vitaminamulti Sure, i think he is definitely testing Bisu to reveal as much as possible, but even then his response to letting him get mass Carriers was kinda bad.
@@stambe8605 I think he's wanting to see what a fully unadulterated, unimpeded Carrier attack strategy and timing looks like on this map. I don't think Flash is one to forget about the threat of such a deadly tech transition as carriers in PvT. For example, he may be seeing if he's caught in this situation, what timings and options he has
Nice, ive been dreaming about that since 1998 :). And Ghosts are on my list of dreams to come true, sadly i dont have time to play in recent years. Maybe next year if the world is still here.
I realise that 12 ghosts with lockdown is impractical. But why not make 2, and lock down one carrier with every engagement? The problem with carriers is that they get away and you can't hit what matters, but if they have to defend one of their number, the entire situation changes.
To get 2 ghosts with lockdown and cloak requires 500 gas (covert ops 50, cloak 100, lockdown 200, ghost 75x2), which could be used for 10 goliaths instead.
@@gippygames But 10 goliaths won't kill one carrier, 2 ghosts with good micro should eventually lockdown at least 2 of them, and if you kill them, that's -1100/500 for protoss. You also don't need cloak right away since Protoss has observers anyway. Once you get to 4 or 6 ghosts, it becomes even more cost-effective, because the overhead cost of the upgrades is a one time thing and any further ghosts only cost 75 gas, while carriers cost 250 gas each(that means even if you lose 3 ghosts for one carrier, it's still extremely worth it because of the huge difference in mineral costs). Also, 2 ghosts cost the same supply as 1 goliath, so supply cost isn't an issue either. Edit: Additionally, having 6 ghosts with full energy(2 Lockdowns each) means that if Protoss is stupid enough to click 12 carriers on your CC, they can lose the game instantly.
@@gippygames And that 10 Goliaths die without doing much anyway. Also Flash went for Vessel + EMP - thats already 425 gas down the drain for almost no effect. Another 150 and you get 3 Ghosts + 2 upgrades and the potential to disable 2-3 Carriers for 45 seconds, reduced the overall firepower of the Carrier fleet and take a couple out.
Those are different things: e.g. even hundreds of zerglings can't break through a Terran wall with moderate defenses. A closer analogy might be to say that "math" here stands for something like "ability to concentrate firepower in one spot": in theory 200 supply of goliaths could probably beat 200 supply of carriers. But they're ground units with collision and pathing issues, vs. flying units that are much easier to move as one, so the goliaths never get a favorable engagement. Similarly, Zerg hydralisks are strong, small, and clump up easily, and Protoss would have no chance against a 200 supply hydralisk army without psi storm and the occasional lategame reavers.
Can someone explain why ~wraths with cloak aren't used in these situations? Expensive, no upgrades, I get that, it just seems that it would give you an options to pressure carriers mid combat and let you drop the carrier count by 1/2 and give your gols the edge.
The problem is that terran needs to build multiple starports in order to mass enough wraiths on time. So the wraith counter isn't as cheap as people think. Meanwhile, terran already has 5+ factories to pump out mass goliaths.
Typically protoss makes a bunch of obs with the wraith. so the half the cloaked wraith die before they can get the obs out if you get all the obs gracefully. And if you miss one obs, the wraiths don't do any damage to the carriers
It's not feasible to get a big enough army of siege tanks, goliaths, vultures and wraiths with cloak on 3 bases in this amount of time If Terranw was on 4 base and Protoss wasn't so far ahead after the opening, it would be a viable option as he scouted the Carrier transition early enough.
@@flimsygrayfrog Toss can just stutter step the Goons just out of the range of the bunker and press Hold position and the Goons will prioritize the bunker due to being an attacking building. Covering the Tank as Flash did is much more useful as the Goons will most likely fire at the threat that deals a continuous fire (bunker) vs a strong attack, but with a very long cooldown (tank) if he decides to bum rush the defence.
Carriers move faster than BCs. Against a pro like Bisu, the BCs will get kited all day and they won't be able to target the carriers. Carriers have 12 leash range, and Yamato Gun has 10 range. Protoss could also just Psi Storm the BCs.
@@gippygames I know, I mean few (3-4) BCs with a dozen of Goliaths. I don't mean pure GC strat. If you had like 4 BCs and enough energy for Yamato, then you could instantly destroy 2 Carriers when they attack you. If Goliaths can get few hits on Carriers with their 8 range, then for sure you could land Yamatos with few BCs.
A noobs genuine question, instead of losing 2 tank 5 SUV or more from reaver drop later on in the game, why don't terran player just build 5 more missle turrent inside their base throughout the game?
Marines would make the difference. 12-16 marines in the back would kill the inceratops. I did it in my games 10 years ago, and also tested micro map, that marines kill inceratops 2-3 times faster than goliaths.
because lockdown has only 8 range ghosts die very easily and it takes a long time and is expensive to get going you still need goliaths anyway lockdown + cloaking + 1 ghost costs 425 gas which can be used to make 8 more goliaths which are probably more useful and then there is also time covert ops takes 25 seconds, research time is 113 seconds, and getting enough energy takees 134 seconds ghosts take 31 seconds to build you can build the ghosts while researching the techs but then you still need 52 seconds more to get enough energy so to get a single ghost with 150 energy would take 2 minutes and 5 seconds at its fastest and keep in mind that ghosts are as fragile as a marine (which as artosis mentions are useless in tvp because of how squishy they are) and that if the ghost dies you wasted 2 minutes of gathering energy in which you will die because your opponent has carriers when you are up against carriers time is everything, and ghosts are not reliable they are a massive gamble with low rate of success
@@dj_koen1265 Yea cloak is almost essential but perhaps in a push skip it and go straight for lockdown behind the goliaths in terms of energy. Yea maybe the ghost dies but iirc the cast is pretty much instant. It would be the winner here but yea costly.
@@gratefulhealing if the ghost doesnt have cloak then the protoss will probably target it down before it reaches the carriers i do feel like ghosts can be effective but they are a gamble that relies on your opponent miscontrolling his units or that he doesnt have detection when you try to flank them but keep in mind that im absolutely not good at this game and that this is just based on how i feel after thinking about the game a lot i would love to see ghosts being used well against carriers by pros but its hard to see how it would work personally
@@dj_koen1265 Lock down is very strong and was pretty much designed for larger mechanical units. I am more of a protoss player and did play a lot back in the day. I see that he did use EMP which is also strong to remove their shields. Yea the ghost has to come in a bit later to not attract attention. We saw how long the carrier fight was going, imagine shutting down like three and focus targeting the remaining.
toss cant keep getting away with this 4sg build with no storm. cut a few tanks and vessel and get marines to fight interceptors. he knew he was going for a timing against carrier man like come on make anti air man......
@@stambe8605 it only makes sense to have goliaths but they need to be supported by a group of 12 wraiths.. if toss is mining from 4 plus bases late game, they typically go into carrier.. and regardless of who is ahead at that point, once the carrier count gets to 8 plus, doesn’t matter its an automatic toss win.. if you have goliaths on the ground and cloaked wraiths taking out observers and attacking carriers, it gives Terran a better chance to win then just going straights goliaths.. never understand it
@@PJJ196 Same. A 3 or 4 base Terran can definitely afford a 2nd or even a 3rd Starport and pump about 1 group of Wraiths to try to snipe at the Carriers, while Gols reduce the interceptors number, or use both in conjunction to kill alot of interceptors due to less overkill since Wraiths and Gols have different missile speed and one's shots are straight and fast while the other is slow and homing, making them overlap fire and kill interceptors A LOT faster! It is proven at this point that pure Goliaths dont work vs 8 to 12 Carriers. You need some sauce on top of your meat and potatoes :)
Spoilers Gg, disappointing from flash that he never made dropships to put pressure before the carrier transition. Also disappointing that where was PURE carrier without templar hallucinations.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
A Flash never makes too little or too many Goliaths. He makes precisely as many as he means to.
Lotr reference?
@@inguh7041Duh…
It's wonderful to see you Flash 🫂
I understood that reference !
Here Flash actually played poorly, failed to focus fire the carriers after the EMP, wasting time on the interceptors... he GG'ed with over 2k mins and 600 gas. Poor showing.
I approve this, "ArtosisCastsFlash" rebrand. Keep it up RT!
“I have a bisu game for you!!! ….
Hejusthappenstobeplayingagainstflash”
Arty trying to be slick 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Arty, this cast was insane; so much insight! Bunker repair, turret repair, where the scan would go. Absolute insight, LOVED IT! Keep going man, we're all here for it now and 10 years from now.
a bisu game... VS FLASH
you're funny arty
Literally my favourite videos. Ive been working like crazy last few months. And whenever i get home I am like "I haven't watch today's Artosis!"
Artosis casts “pros that happen to be playing Flash” is a good series to take a break from Flash games
Next asl: Flash plays late ghost+wraith builds in TvP and wins 5-0 all games, proving he was just trolling Artosis all along.
I love that the 'lol all flash' meme has taken control so fully that you don't even hype up that it's BISU VS FUCKING FLASH. all the nostalgia centers in my brain are lit UP
Lol, if Artosis told you it was two high-level amateurs or other pros you would never know the difference.
I kind of feel like the lack of targeting the carriers after EMP was the lethal error
It was the bed shitting, he could've turned it but instead was watching w/e else he thought mattered but didnt.
I wish pros would use ghosts with lockdown, I have seen Artosis defeat mass-carriers with lockdown many times.
@@Ricky-oc4xc you'd really only need 1-2 of them also. Just getting the carrier count to 7 would really give the gold a chance and it's not too gass expensive either.
@@nickjohnson3996 They seem to hyper focus on only 3 units max per game, discarding lots of tools.
maybe if you scan and see the fleet beacon while its building you will have time
otherwise the covert ops upgrades just take too long to come with your maxout
lockdown range is only 8 so its useless vs carrier
@@dj_koen1265 ya but cloak. And with vessel and gold range you should be able to pick observers. You'd only need a second to get in range. But cloak and lock down is a lot of gas and time.
I don't play BW literally at all but I got the early probe scout question right cause I've seen him mention a bunch of times about the gas directions on this map, lol.
Ahh the protective bunker in the mainbase. This confirms that I have been playing like a real pro xD
Saiyan and RT have become the perfect blend of content.
Artosis, I love your in depth analysis, I've consumed 50+ of your videos in the last month. Could you PLEASE add at the end of your titles a "TvP" etc label? It would make it so much easier to search your content.
Goliaths should be able to burrow and attack with Hellfire Missiles on ground targets in my opinion.
Their machine guns should be able to shoot other burrowed units.
This comment 🤣🤣🤣💯💀💀💯
@@jackrogers5712 Yes.
Golurkiaths
Flash? More like Brash! What a majestic show of gameplay! Chip Chop Cheerio Artois! Au Pair! Que Paso!
Petition for two Flash games per day. One is good, but not enough.
Flash getting so on, advanced on bisu base seals his fate. If he fought in the center he would have retreated the tanks until Goliaths eventually do the job. His greed and be so close to the sun allowed bisu to feast on his tanks. The dts were dirty but effective. That emp didnt worth losing mobile detection
It's nice to see Flash has adopted the mines in your main meta already
Hey Artosis! Great cast as always!
After an eternity spent playing SC2, Brood War has finally piqued my interest. Can you recommend any English educational resources for learning matchups and build orders? Thanks!
Day 9 has a great series here on youtube for new players. Learned a lot of stuff from those videos. Check it out!
Yes the Day 9 Let’s Learn StarCraft playlist is excellent
Thanks guys! I'll give it a look
I love that Artosis didn't even put Bisu in the title hahaha.
bisu had 1-2 observers.....flash could have had a full group of wraiths when the carriers came out, woulda been a slaughter
Exactly! I think this tactic is highly underused.
Precisely, even if he had 4-5 observers, the Wraiths would have quickly dealth with them and even if 6 were only left, that would have hurt plenty.
Also I suppose they would attack with the main push, so they couldn't be spotted or targeted by the carriers easily.
yea, full group of wraiths...and no ground army to handle gateway units sitting right outside his base, so bisu would be more than happy sitting his carriers over his cannoned up expansions
I heckin love starcraft and artosie cast
FLASH AND BISU???? what a sunday funday now. Thankyou fartosis
Artosis forgot to mention that if you are in this base, you will never get early probe scouted AGAINST HIGH S RANK !!!
Good to see good ol Starcraft!
Great plays esp the flying barrack blocking to target the siege tank - damn!
I would like to have seen Terran to lean in to the opponent with expanding siege tank action.
Just macro them about 2 and 2 with giga cannon and make your way forward.
Protoss is a damn strong faction tho but that's why Terran has to be one step ahead/more technical.
Oh and yea *must* zero in on each carrier at a time! Else you'll be farmed.
If the game went on for a bit perhaps Lockdown had been in play.
carrier victory= laaaaame
Obviously even Flash can't think of everything, but at 4:30, he could have tried pulling the other 3 marines to the right side. If a goon comes in from the top (which it did), he can bring the rines up behind and pincer it with the bunkered rines coming out. At least, that's my thought.
Flash is the John Wick of SCVs. You kill his SCV, he kills your base
Would be hard to pull off, but could Wraiths in this situation help for flanks when carriers engage the Goliath's? Would require a lot of micro to keep wraiths alive while trying tk pick off carriers one at a time.
if flash cancelled the two tanks he made when he scouted then made a second starport and wraiths instead of tanks he maybe would have had 6 wraiths by the end of that game and 8 less tanks for his push, I dont think it would have helped that game.
Bisu opened so much smoother than Flash. That early engagement really slowed him down a lot, allowing Bisu to outscale insanely well from there. By the time the carriers engaged with Flash's forces, it was already a dice roll that Flash could get anything done to even stay in the game, let alone win. I don't think Wraiths would have helped him in such a position with lower econ and a tight window to try and stay in the game.
That intro had me laughing. Keep up the good work!
Well played Bisu
Même le dimanche nous avons le droit à notre dose!!
Merci Artosis ✌️✌️✌️
when will games without flash return from the war
I have chills
I feel like Flash made "NOT ENOUGH" goliaths
For the chills
Why would you not go Valkyries vs carries? Would be a good AOE from a distance.
Bisu gave retro PvT vibes in this game and showed us why it was the go to strategy ages ago!!!
Wonder if flash could have set a trap for that first goon with the extra marines right as it poked the bunker
could we get the occasional 1PP game? it was cool seeing the game with bisu's vision off for 20 sec in the mid game, only having flash's perspective
FUCKIN loving the flash games Artie more more!!
Perfect game by Bisu.
Should rename the channel “ArtosisCastsFlash”. But, in all seriousness loving all the flash games
Even a Flash will run into that carrier problem and not have a solution for it. He did try to marshal his tanks around to take out econ and units during the carrier engage and it still wasnt enough lol. Smh.
Bisu played a perfect game there.
The Bee Suit! ❤😊
As discussed before - you shouldn’t let Protoss build carriers
But you can't stop him from doing so. Protoss always pressures with dragoons when terran is forced to turtle up behind bunkers and tanks. All they need to do is delay you, with Dragoons guarding the exit. You can't engage that without leapfrogging tanks, which spends even more time. By the time you actually push out across the map, he's already got carriers coming out.
@@d0k0night you have scans and dropships
@@stambe8605 i thought Flash is one of those pros
@@vklymenko TBH even in his prime that aggressive multi pronged attack style was never his forte. On the other hand, guy like Fantasy and Sharp live and breathe that style.
Waiting for the Ghost +Wraith Meta to form.
Nav-comm locked!!
Honestly as much as I'd love to see Flash return as the best player in the world I think there would be way more money for him as a streamer and as a coach.
Imagine how many people would line up for with fists full of cash for 2 hours of coaching from Flash.
Goliaths are not an adequate counter against carriers.
Nothing is an adequate counter. As you can see on Liquipedia, the only way to win is to beat them before they mass carriers. Once Bisu got 11 carriers without any pushback it was pretty much over. MASS CARRIERS = INSTANT WIN.
Sudden wraiths.
@@ObeliskM Exactly.
@@gippygames Many things are, but you dont have enough money or time with Terran for that tech. BCs shit on Carriers with good micro, but good luck getting 10 BCs with Yamato vs his 12 Carriers.
Goliaths are literally Metal Gear!
one questions, why do terrans not build like 1 or 2 ghosts against carriers and lockdown 4 of them? That is like half their firepower for onlyy 2 ghosts right?
I am sure there is a reason, but what is it?
I think once you see the carriers, you have to switch to wraiths. Emp and target down carriers. Goliaths just cant stand against kiting carriers.
Go Bisu 🤘😁
Shouldn't terrans make a shit ton of barracks and cover their tanks all the time?
Bisu always plays very safe
Wright way vs Flash.
Flash is just baiting Bisu (best Protoss) to see the exact timings and builds for carrier, so that in ASL, Flash can effectively counter with wraiths/coursairs/ghosts.
Flash is gonna target Bisu's Carriers with Corsairs ?? :)))
@@stambe8605 valks.. my bad. main point is i think flash is testing to see timing and play style of the best strat.
@@vitaminamulti Sure, i think he is definitely testing Bisu to reveal as much as possible, but even then his response to letting him get mass Carriers was kinda bad.
@@stambe8605 I think he's wanting to see what a fully unadulterated, unimpeded Carrier attack strategy and timing looks like on this map. I don't think Flash is one to forget about the threat of such a deadly tech transition as carriers in PvT. For example, he may be seeing if he's caught in this situation, what timings and options he has
20 years dreaming for terrans vs carriers; just do ghosts with lockdown. Even single ghost lockdowns 1 its win.
Nice, ive been dreaming about that since 1998 :). And Ghosts are on my list of dreams to come true, sadly i dont have time to play in recent years. Maybe next year if the world is still here.
I realise that 12 ghosts with lockdown is impractical. But why not make 2, and lock down one carrier with every engagement? The problem with carriers is that they get away and you can't hit what matters, but if they have to defend one of their number, the entire situation changes.
To get 2 ghosts with lockdown and cloak requires 500 gas (covert ops 50, cloak 100, lockdown 200, ghost 75x2), which could be used for 10 goliaths instead.
The limiting factor for Terran isn't gas though, and the limiting factor for Goliaths is factory time
@@gippygames But 10 goliaths won't kill one carrier, 2 ghosts with good micro should eventually lockdown at least 2 of them, and if you kill them, that's -1100/500 for protoss. You also don't need cloak right away since Protoss has observers anyway. Once you get to 4 or 6 ghosts, it becomes even more cost-effective, because the overhead cost of the upgrades is a one time thing and any further ghosts only cost 75 gas, while carriers cost 250 gas each(that means even if you lose 3 ghosts for one carrier, it's still extremely worth it because of the huge difference in mineral costs). Also, 2 ghosts cost the same supply as 1 goliath, so supply cost isn't an issue either.
Edit: Additionally, having 6 ghosts with full energy(2 Lockdowns each) means that if Protoss is stupid enough to click 12 carriers on your CC, they can lose the game instantly.
@@gippygames And that 10 Goliaths die without doing much anyway. Also Flash went for Vessel + EMP - thats already 425 gas down the drain for almost no effect. Another 150 and you get 3 Ghosts + 2 upgrades and the potential to disable 2-3 Carriers for 45 seconds, reduced the overall firepower of the Carrier fleet and take a couple out.
I like how you call "overwhelming numbers" just "math". Your logic is correct though.
Those are different things: e.g. even hundreds of zerglings can't break through a Terran wall with moderate defenses. A closer analogy might be to say that "math" here stands for something like "ability to concentrate firepower in one spot": in theory 200 supply of goliaths could probably beat 200 supply of carriers. But they're ground units with collision and pathing issues, vs. flying units that are much easier to move as one, so the goliaths never get a favorable engagement. Similarly, Zerg hydralisks are strong, small, and clump up easily, and Protoss would have no chance against a 200 supply hydralisk army without psi storm and the occasional lategame reavers.
Can someone explain why ~wraths with cloak aren't used in these situations? Expensive, no upgrades, I get that, it just seems that it would give you an options to pressure carriers mid combat and let you drop the carrier count by 1/2 and give your gols the edge.
The problem is that terran needs to build multiple starports in order to mass enough wraiths on time. So the wraith counter isn't as cheap as people think. Meanwhile, terran already has 5+ factories to pump out mass goliaths.
Typically protoss makes a bunch of obs with the wraith. so the half the cloaked wraith die before they can get the obs out if you get all the obs gracefully. And if you miss one obs, the wraiths don't do any damage to the carriers
It's not feasible to get a big enough army of siege tanks, goliaths, vultures and wraiths with cloak on 3 bases in this amount of time If Terranw was on 4 base and Protoss wasn't so far ahead after the opening, it would be a viable option as he scouted the Carrier transition early enough.
Flash is fighting Bisu!
hey guys!
Why dont pros float the barracks over the bunker so the dragoons cant target it from far away?
That only prevents YOU from repairing the bunker not the toss from targeting it :)
@@stambe8605
Ohh makes sense lol
@@flimsygrayfrog Toss can just stutter step the Goons just out of the range of the bunker and press Hold position and the Goons will prioritize the bunker due to being an attacking building. Covering the Tank as Flash did is much more useful as the Goons will most likely fire at the threat that deals a continuous fire (bunker) vs a strong attack, but with a very long cooldown (tank) if he decides to bum rush the defence.
I just wanna see somebody try Yamato against this...
Carriers move faster than BCs. Against a pro like Bisu, the BCs will get kited all day and they won't be able to target the carriers. Carriers have 12 leash range, and Yamato Gun has 10 range. Protoss could also just Psi Storm the BCs.
@@gippygames I know, I mean few (3-4) BCs with a dozen of Goliaths. I don't mean pure GC strat.
If you had like 4 BCs and enough energy for Yamato, then you could instantly destroy 2 Carriers when they attack you.
If Goliaths can get few hits on Carriers with their 8 range, then for sure you could land Yamatos with few BCs.
artosis running low on flash titles i feel
"2 hours ago."
Didnt i watch this yesterday?
RT when are you going to play like flash ???
Big brain gas steal probe scout comments. Huge build up and delivered. makes total sense.
Obviously that is not FLASH, Flash wouldn't lost a single SCV, not to mention losing a game
I think flash could have put some effort into elongating the fight by producing more carriers and wraiths and could have won.
@12:30 "He's trying to be SnOw so hard."
Yes, Flash can build a nexus with an scv
flash 😢
Bisu is a hacker.....
A noobs genuine question, instead of losing 2 tank 5 SUV or more from reaver drop later on in the game, why don't terran player just build 5 more missle turrent inside their base throughout the game?
is not like potess can eazily pick turrent out without dropping like zerg.
The real question is, *Can Flash Scam Too Many People Into Buying His Shitcoins?!*
Marines would make the difference. 12-16 marines in the back would kill the inceratops. I did it in my games 10 years ago, and also tested micro map, that marines kill inceratops 2-3 times faster than goliaths.
WTF are inceratops?
did you test what happens if the protoss builds any splash at all
@@redfiendinterceptors
@@redfiend its a dinosaur
Yea 0-0 marines without stim or range would surely have made the difference 😂😂😂
Bisu the new flash? (did Flash every win against Bisu since the Flash series? Beside cheesing)
Commenting before watching, I hope Bisu does better than Snow....
I paused and didn't get it right.
Why not use a few ghosts and shoot lockdown on them carriers?
because lockdown has only 8 range
ghosts die very easily
and it takes a long time and is expensive to get going
you still need goliaths anyway
lockdown + cloaking + 1 ghost costs 425 gas which can be used to make 8 more goliaths which are probably more useful
and then there is also time
covert ops takes 25 seconds, research time is 113 seconds, and getting enough energy takees 134 seconds
ghosts take 31 seconds to build
you can build the ghosts while researching the techs but then you still need 52 seconds more to get enough energy
so to get a single ghost with 150 energy would take 2 minutes and 5 seconds at its fastest
and keep in mind that ghosts are as fragile as a marine (which as artosis mentions are useless in tvp because of how squishy they are) and that if the ghost dies you wasted 2 minutes of gathering energy in which you will die because your opponent has carriers
when you are up against carriers time is everything, and ghosts are not reliable they are a massive gamble with low rate of success
@@dj_koen1265 I guess. But still would help and just have them cloaked. Maybe one game someone will bring them into play
@@dj_koen1265 Yea cloak is almost essential but perhaps in a push skip it and go straight for lockdown behind the goliaths in terms of energy.
Yea maybe the ghost dies but iirc the cast is pretty much instant.
It would be the winner here but yea costly.
@@gratefulhealing if the ghost doesnt have cloak then the protoss will probably target it down before it reaches the carriers
i do feel like ghosts can be effective but they are a gamble that relies on your opponent miscontrolling his units or that he doesnt have detection when you try to flank them
but keep in mind that im absolutely not good at this game and that this is just based on how i feel after thinking about the game a lot
i would love to see ghosts being used well against carriers by pros but its hard to see how it would work personally
@@dj_koen1265 Lock down is very strong and was pretty much designed for larger mechanical units.
I am more of a protoss player and did play a lot back in the day.
I see that he did use EMP which is also strong to remove their shields.
Yea the ghost has to come in a bit later to not attract attention.
We saw how long the carrier fight was going, imagine shutting down like three and focus targeting the remaining.
toss cant keep getting away with this 4sg build with no storm. cut a few tanks and vessel and get marines to fight interceptors. he knew he was going for a timing against carrier man like come on make anti air man......
he wil always lose without wraiths.
Love to see a TvZ with flash.. why do ppl keep goinggoliaths against carriers.. they never work
They work if you are ahead or even, but when you are behind, might as well switch to M&M.
@@stambe8605 it only makes sense to have goliaths but they need to be supported by a group of 12 wraiths.. if toss is mining from 4 plus bases late game, they typically go into carrier.. and regardless of who is ahead at that point, once the carrier count gets to 8 plus, doesn’t matter its an automatic toss win.. if you have goliaths on the ground and cloaked wraiths taking out observers and attacking carriers, it gives Terran a better chance to win then just going straights goliaths.. never understand it
@@PJJ196 Same. A 3 or 4 base Terran can definitely afford a 2nd or even a 3rd Starport and pump about 1 group of Wraiths to try to snipe at the Carriers, while Gols reduce the interceptors number, or use both in conjunction to kill alot of interceptors due to less overkill since Wraiths and Gols have different missile speed and one's shots are straight and fast while the other is slow and homing, making them overlap fire and kill interceptors A LOT faster!
It is proven at this point that pure Goliaths dont work vs 8 to 12 Carriers. You need some sauce on top of your meat and potatoes :)
Spoilers
Gg, disappointing from flash that he never made dropships to put pressure before the carrier transition.
Also disappointing that where was PURE carrier without templar hallucinations.
ggs
Plz change channel name to properly reflect ArtosisCastsFlash
Maybe this channel can be renamed from ArtosisCasts to
ArtosisCastsFlash
@@eulogp9888 the Terran bias is great, he should keep it coming
@@eulogp9888 "a disrespect to all other pros" lol
How can you loose an scv to a probe like this?! and it’s not the first time. Flash is nooob
God I fucking love flash
.
What does that mean
gg
Flash would have won
Getting a little tired of Flash every day… SIKE
First for nifty pylon