Do Torque Sticks Work?
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- Опубликовано: 29 окт 2017
- Check out The mec a nic's two videos here:
• Do torque sticks work?
• Do torque sticks work ...
This is an Astro Pneumatic full set of torque sticks (Astro makes good stuff): amzn.to/2z6je00
Or you might be interested in this set of the most common Torque Sticks plus wheel lug nut sockets with protective sleeves: amzn.to/2z6DChJ
Or you can get the Harbor Freight ones here: www.harborfreight.com/10-piec...
Check out Milwaukee Tools:
Milwaukee 2767-22 High Torque Impact Wrench Kit: www.milwaukeetool.com/power-t...
Milwaukee 2861-22 Mid Torque Impact Wrench Kit: www.milwaukeetool.com/power-t...
My mailing address for correspondence or swag of any kind is on my about page.
This video is for entertainment purposes only. 50sKid assumes no liability for any repairs or modifications performed by the viewer as a result of the information contained in this video. 
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Great video :)
Thanks man!!
50sKid believe it has something to due with the mass of the hammers in the gun. The mid torque has smaller faster hammers compared to the big gun. I have a feeling that the hammers faster cycle is really just hammering it down even with the stick as to the big guns hammer cycle is wide enough the stick gets that millisecond to recoil properly.
Exactly, the inertial load, the mass and velocity of the torque wrench's hammer assembly, on the torque stick will affect the accuracy of the stick.
The some other points that the chap seems to have missed are -
that there is a difference between stack and dynamic (moving) friction. It takes more force (torque) to start motion (rotation) than to continue the movement.
the slight movement noticed when 'clicking' the torque wrench is part of the torquing process for the tool
best practice is a smooth motion until the wrench indicates the desired value is reached, without continuing to 'click' it.
Overal, though, an interesting test and why I do not trust them to be used on any of my vehicles - I use rather expensive 'wrenches and read their calibration sheets - so far, they are all within a lb.ft of nominal value.
Good video you are on the right track! Here is my opinion as to what is actually happening: The principle of operation of the torque stick is based on the spring constant of the individual torque stick. The torque stick is simply a torsional spring. Small diameter stick yields small torque and vice versa. But this only is accurate for a certain amount of torsion applied to the stick for a certain amount of rotational twist of the stick. In essence, the stick is designed for a certain amount of twist to produce the desired rated torque. If the impact wrench 'over-twists' the stick during each hammer blow of the impact wrench the resulting applied torques would be different. For example, I bet if you took a torque stick and placed one end in a vice and the other onto a torque wrench and stressed it to the rated torque written on the stick you would get a certain rotational angle of the stick. Then, if you used a different stick and repeated the same test using the rating of the different stick you would get nearly the same angle upon reaching the rated torque of the new stick. I bet the amount of rotation in degrees for all the torque sticks will be about the same. So why the results in your test? - well, the wrench operates based on rotating masses hitting an anvil inside the impact wrench. Different designs will produce different characteristics during the impact operation inside the impact wrench that affect the rotational angle of the driven shaft caused by each impact. The torque sticks may be designed for a general impact angle and if a particular impact wrench produces an impact larger than the angle that the design of the torque stick the applied torque will be higher as the test showed. You would think the medium strength impact wrench would produce lower torque during the test but as I tried to explain, this may not have anything to do with the actual torque applied.
Based on what I heard there is a definite difference between the air impact wrench and the mid range wrench you used. The air wrench is slower (impacts per second) while the mid range tool is faster and has more impacts per second. This means that the torsional impulse applied to the fastener is different for each tool and the rotational angle produced with each anvil strike inside the tool is different also. My guess is the rotational angle of the slower tool is more in line with the rotational angle measured with the stick in the vice and as a consequence the applied torque matches the stick rating. The less powerful mid range tool applies a larger impulse because it is applying more impacts per second.
I would have to do some research to tweak this off the cuff explanation but I think it is close to what s actually happening. btw: your test confirms that you really do need to match or calibrate your torque sticks to the particular impact wrench you are using. And if you are using an air tool the air pressure would also affect the results. Impulse = Force x time. Changing the force by altering the air pressure or the time by using a faster impact wrench will affect the output of the wrench. Good video!
Part of the fuctionality of a torque stick is that it needs to come to a rest in between each strike. It needs to go back to its original state so it's ready for next strike. If you're hammering it too fast it tightens up and can't deflect the next impact. So you're basically using a stiff stick.
Man assaults two BMW lug bolts for 13 minutes.....
Fuck those lug bolts!!
But I LIKE my lug bolts! I had 2 broken on the rear and one broken on the front when i bought my car. Pulled the wheel and rotors and the damn things threaded out by hand. This was my first BMW mind you so it was a pleasant surprise to not have to pound the damn things out and trash my wheel bearings! Of course putting the wheel on is always an extra labor of love!
What the fuck is a lug bolt?
RoBo Roket the bolts that hold the wheel on
Zachary Jog there are wheel bolts, there are wheel lugs, and there are studs. There is no such thing as a “lug bolt”.
Engineer here, I think I know what might be happening--sorry that this is going to be long.
First, a word about how torque sticks in general work. You'll note each stick is thinner as you go to lower torque specs. This makes each stick have less "torsional stiffness." Think of a graph with the torque on one axis and the rotation (in degrees angle) on the other. Each torque stick will have a different trace of torque vs angular displacement. The smaller ones have more angular deflection for a given amount of torque. Keep this in mind.
When you have no impact mechanism, this reduced torsional stiffness is irrelevant because the force is constantly applied. Thus, all the torque applied is passed along to the end of the torque stick. And the time associated with force application is irrelevant because it's essentially zero.
Now what happens with the impact mechanism? Starting with no or very low torque, the mechanism doesn’t actuate, you have no hammering action, just a steady/smooth. It takes a certain minimum amount of torque to cause the hammering action, which occurs when the torque (reaction torque, here) overcomes the dog/pin static torque, causing relative motion between hammer and anvil.
Since we have enough reaction torque to activate the mechanism, the tool behaves differently. Now, it delivers torque in discrete “chunks.” The torque delivered is much higher, but is short in time duration-an impulse. This is how a regular hammer works in striking a nail-the mass of the hammer and its velocity determine that energy it will be able to deliver to the nail.
But what if that carpenter’s hammer hits a nail covered with several thick layers of rubber? In this case, that impact energy is diverted into compressing the rubber instead of driving the nail. The same amount of energy is present, but less is delivered to the nail because more went into compressing the rubber matting over the nail.
The torsional stiffness of the torque sticks creates the same effect-the discrete impulse of the hammer mechanism is diverted into twisting the torque stick, causing each impulse to be changed into a longer time but lower peak event. The less stiffness, the more time and the less peak force. The more stiffness, the less time and the more peak force.
That time component is absolutely key. There is a time parameter associated with each combination of torsional stiffness and impact force. The more torque or the less stiffness, the more time is consumed by each event. After each blow, some time must pass when the energy absorbed (stored) by the torque stick is returned to the system. Engineers would definite a “torsional modal frequency” to capture that time.
If the impact tool can apply another hammer blow before the torque stick has dissipated the energy it stored, then not all the energy from the torsional deflection will have been returned to the system yet; so the energy “accumulates” and the applied torque will increase. It’s as if before we had a swimming pool being filled at the same rate it was leaking out, causing the water level to remain constant, then suddenly someone plugs the pool’s leak and the water starts to rise.
Because the deep socket is less stiff in torsion than the short socket, it mimics some of the effect of the torque stick and it makes that time factor longer. This makes it more likely that energy will “pile up.” More specifically, it lowers the natural torsional resonant frequency of the system.
The shallow sockets have slightly higher torsional frequency, make the additional energy “pile up” at a much lower rate.
All that to say this: the “medium torque” cordless has much higher rate of hammer blows, and that frequency being higher than the natural torsional resonance of the system, it will allow the energy to “pile up” a bit, causing the delivered torque to the exceed the rating of the torque stick.
Torque stick manufacturers would do well to publish a maximum blows per minute “BPM” for each torque stick corresponding to its torsional modal frequency. But since they don’t know what sockets you’re using or anything, they can’t publish anything meaningful.
The takeaway here is not that the torque sticks need to be “calibrated”-it’s that they need to be used with a tool that has a low enough BPM rate to fall beneath their natural frequency.
PS: If you tried the highest torque rated sticks with the medium torque gun, you’d find this problem almost entirely disappears. WHY? The higher rated sticks are stiffer, have a higher frequency, and this frequency is almost certainly higher than the BPM rating of even the medium torque cordless gun.
Not an engineer, but I was thinking along similar lines as to the frequency of the hammer causing it to over torque due to the way the stick bends under load.
Awesome!
Excellent explanation.... thanks for taking the time out ... !
THIS is why I ALWAYS cruise the comments section... there are always knowledgeable people willing to impart extra info on top of the vid ... or even correct an error in a vid ! 🙄😏
I understood the shank of the extension eating torques up, but I never considered the impact being a factor. Neato to reado.
Bluepoint sells torque sticks that have the socket built in.
Nice job. Another simple way to look at how they work would be an air bad system in a car. The air bag bleeds down it pressure allowing the occupant to 'ride down' the impact over a longer period of time as opposed to the shorter duration stop of something harder......
Great video. I'm an Engineer. I believe that the hammer frequency is so high with the MID-Torque gun that its hammering when the torque stick is fully torqued, tightening the nut further. A traditional impact gun hammers at a lower frequency, in tune with the torque stick.
Dang you said it easier than me. Seems like pneumatic really impact at a low frequency so they work well with the torque sticks while the Milwaukee high torque is just low enough for it to work.
This is a simpler and shorter explanation for those of us without an engineering diploma. Thanks!
@@ernestkanu1247 brr too fast, needs ugga dugga
Impacts per second.
I believe you're right.
"Hey, you wanna buy some torque sticks?"
"You don't want to sell me torque sticks."
I see what you did there 😆 😉
May the fourth be with you
@@shannonspear8751 lol a little early for that dude
I want to go home and rethink my life.
You win the internet!
All lugs are tight at 4 ugga uggas
pine laughed too damn hard at this
Easy there little fella. Depends on the car. Small Hondoos are good at 3 ugga duggas. 1, 2 BBQ baby.
80 and older cars usually get almost 6 ugga ugga's
TheRedneckNinja !!! 6 ugga duggas with the Astro Nano. Yeehah baby.
Pine: I laughed more that I should have at your comment. Happy New Year everyone.
Thanks for the info! I bought these with 1,000 ft pound electric impact. Just as good as my old torque wrench. But at age 50 and with arthritis i come to the point of retiring the manual wrench. Now i can take off and on lug nuts all day and pain free!
My snap on guy has a torque tester so I had him check my wrench. 14 years daily use never calibrated and it was off 1 foot pound at 100.
I used them in school. We tested them against torque wrenches and they were good. Guess I don’t know how long they stay accurate though.
This explains what you were telling me last time we talked. Nice to see your results. I use deep impact sockets because sometimes the short socket won't let the lug nut go all the way down before the stud hits the socket . Plus if you buy a set of "lug nut" sockets they're always deep. I think the deep socket let's the lug nut keep turning because it has the same effect as the Lisle socket designed to remove Honda crank bolts with the extra mass it has..
But the short socket still has the same effect where it doesn't "stop" and "go no further" you know? You saw what it looks like with the big guns on full blast--how there is a definite stop. So weird how you don't have that same behavior with a lower powered gun.
50sKid yeah it baffles me. Nice to see the results you got. Thanks for pronouncing the name of my channel correctly lol 👍
50sKid good video. I only know of one calibrated torque wrench. It’s the one from the movie my cousin vinny
Haha
50sKid Marisa Tomei looked amazing in that movie . And who can beat a craftsman signature series torque wrench calibrated by top members of the department of weights and measures. To be dead on balls accurate. LoL 😂.
it has to do with the number of impacts from the hammers/anvils in the Mid Torque in a set period. What is happening is the torque stick is unable to spring back because of the rapid succession of hits that the Mid Torque delivers as opposed to the slower heavier hits of the impact or High torque.
You nailed it.
You can even get the system to resonance that will result in extremely high torques.
When the impact occurs the system bounce back and fourth a number of times even thou you don’t add energy. If the next impact of the gun synchronises with the resonance of the socket and stick you will be way to high in torque value. The same applies but in the opposite direction if the impact hits when socket and stick rotates backwards but you will be way to low in torque.
The toque gun itself is a tuned mass system and the stick, play to the socket and weight of the socket will all offset the intended resonance.
Nothing beats your torque wrench for precision.
Thats exactly what I took from it, David Jones. I have to completely disagree with Per Kallberg's suggestion of a resonant frequency. And as a physicist the explanation of resonant frequency seems somewhat quirky and completely backwards. The problem is that the torque stick doesn't have time to "bounce back" at all, not that it's rotating back and forth repeatedly. If it doesn't have time to rotate back you will keep adding torque whilst the stick only manages to dissipate a fraction of that before the next impact reaching an equilibrium significantly higher than designed. If it had time to unwind and "bounce back and forth" it would be able to dissipate the energy before the next impact.
Also for what its worth with a spring like that the q factor will be high enough that the frequency band at which it resonates is so thin that the impact gun wouldn't be constant enough to make it resonate. Impact guns have a very random and sporadic rate, sometimes they hit twice a rotation, sometimes they won't hit for multiple rotations. There is no constant frequency to make it resonate, especially with such a tight resonant frequency band.
Olivia Lambert you might be right. I have some problems with your explanation thou.
I think the stiffness of the rod gives it a higher resonance frequency than the frequency of the gun. Since you can clearly hear the individual impacts it’s fairly low.
When you use an impact gun the socket dance around. If the stick always applied a torque greater than 0 it wouldn’t dance around.
For your argument to work it would have to always be in the first quarter of the cycle and that just seems unlikely since the gun then would have to be at least 4 times faster than the rod.
The stochastic nature of the gun is actually what makes it hit the resonance. It only has to match one impact to the next not a continuous standing resonance.
How high in physics have one come to call oneself a physicist on RUclips? 😂😂😂
I know for a fact I'm right. I've seen an impact hammer in slow motion. They all have impacts at absolutely random intervals, therefore there absolutely cannot be a resonant frequency involved if there is no set frequency at all.
You seem to misunderstand what a resonant frequency is exactly. It is the frequency of the entire system. If the entire system has a different resonant frequency to the frequency of impacts then there is no resonance. They need to be the same frequency or they will not resonate. And as I have said before, there is no frequency of impacts if it is random and thus there is no resonance.
For the next part you probably want to get off google and put down the thesaurus. It ultimately makes sense whatsoever. I don't mind if you use basic language or complicated, all that matters to me is the ideas are good. Complete nonsense doesn't benefit anyone.
Anyway what we all seem to agree is happening is the impact hammer strikes, this twists the rod. The rod then begins to unwind based on its spring tension and the inertial mass of the system which is almost entirely in the rod. This is how it keeps a fairly good approximation of the correct torque and so far is how it should work. However when the wrong impact hammer is used a second strike comes before the rod has enough time to unwind adding more torque, and then another, and then another, and so on. As there isn't enough time for the rod to unwind it absorbs the strikes and smooths the impacts out to a constant torque, a little like a drill. Therefore, like I said before, the torque transmitted will be based on the average rate of the impacts and the total power of the impact hammer which is absolutely not how it is supposed to work, hence the broken results.
As for how far I've got, a degree and some paid work on the academic side of physics. At least until I've had to stop for a little while. But quite frankly you don't need to study at university to understand what is going on hence all the other replies saying the exact same as I have.
The condition of the square drives is very important, once the edges get rounded out the Margins on the torque obtained with widen out.
I never thought that I would be interested in a video about why torque sticks work. Very cool
Torque sticks limit applied torque by flexing once the desired torque is reached. If the stick is constantly held in the sprung state it will act as a solid object and fail to limit torque. The problem is the gun used has too many impacts per second. Torque output of a gun is typically never going to be the issue.
That's exactly what I was thinking, impacts are happening before the torque stick has had enough time to flex back to its neutral state and, in turn, causing rotation to progress beyond what's it's supposed to
the mid torque impact does more impacts per minute. thank you for the video!!
Now this could be worth taking a look at. Gives me a good reason to finish what I'm doing and come back to it for a break. Thanks.
Your testing approach and methodology is perfectly acceptable and very helpful. Thank you.
Great vid.. in my personal application I would use the stick just lower than I want and still check the lugs with the torque wrench. speed up the tightening process while preventing over tightening.
Just don't do that in front of a respectable mechanic you will lose all credibility instantly.
It would be neat to get AvE to take a look at a set of these things.
If anyone can figure out how to take them apart, it's him!
Made with high quality Chinesium!
No.
its that type of steel in a very specific diameter to make it flex at specific torques, way more simple than you think. nothing to take apart really
If anybody could make 'em chooch, it'd be him.
Great test! I love torque sticks they do work and make me not worry about over torque lug nuts. I always double check with my manual torque wrench afterwards. Nock on wood no tires have come off. Its hard when all the import cars have a super low torque specs than domestics. Doesn’t help when you getting use to your new tools.
Interesting. I took all of my torque wrenches to be calibrated a few years ago. It does happen! Thanks for the video, I was wondering about these.
This correlateds perfectly with my experience! Thank you for clarifying the reason!!!
My experience is some shops having delivered very close together (+/- 5-10%) using torque sticks and other having HUGE differences, to the point where a brand new tire, perfectly balanced, would feel like unbalanced. Because of this i've always redone the nuts/bolts at home
There are so many factors, and one of the biggest in my mind (having worked for a company that does torque calibration) is that impact is your problem. The impact causes the tool/meter/rod to feel less torque than is being applied because the force being perpendicular to the threads creates more clearance between the threads of the nut and bolt, but when it rebounds, the the threads re-compress on each other creating a higher final torque. When we used DC nutrunners, the final torque or loosening torque would actually be slightly less than the metered torque. We also had pulse pneumatic tools, which are more accurate and actually provide a better breakaway torque. The pulse tools "hammer" parallel to the threads rather than perpendicular to the threads.
This was very educational. I have never took a wheel off in my entire life. Just needed how to get the darn things off to change brake fluid! You probly saved me from a disaster.
Right on. I've noticed a similar difference with the stubby 1/2 drive impact Mac tools make, compared to the big red brick Snap-on makes. The little 1/2 stubby has a faster impacting drive mechanism in the construction of the gun. My thought is it can hammer the torque stick multiple times before the stick can relax its twisting motion and therefore double hammering the stick. The sticks were designed in an era where the impact drive action on the guns had less impacting. I've run into this as well. Impact sticks save a lot of time and are safe to use once you understand how the work and use within there design. Just my 2 cents. Love your video. Great work. Please if someone knows different correct me if I'm wrong.
I see it's been mentioned a few times already but I would guess the mid torque gun has much less time between pulses. I suspect they are fast enough to the point where the torque sticks have not got a chance to recoil back to a nominal state. As to the difference between the short and deep sockets, I would assume it has something to do with the additional mass having to react against the pulses from the torque wrench.
My 2 bits worth anyway!
Torque sticks are not for final torque. They are to allow you to use impact tools to put on fasteners to a lesser torque than finish with a torque wrench to proper spec.
Kind of a waste of time to use torque sticks now that some impact wrenches have a mode where it will stop torqueing like the rigid Gen5x auto mode
This was the most sensible comment. - Now imaging you use a progress star-pattern; Start with a lower number, then go around again with a higher number close to but not above finishing torque. Then you do the last 1/4 to 1/2 turn with a torque wrench. Ah, professional mechanics' Nirvana is achieved.
Grab 3 sockets; the first one doesn't matter and a short and long impact -- used appropriately will save time and still get a professional job.
And remember to lubricate threads, to get the proper specs. I can see how these can prevent serious over torquing, that is not so uncommon practice in some shops.
@@dunckeroo1987 Lubing wheel studs and bolts after taking the time to torque wheels properly is doing nothing but shooting yourself in the foot and looking for a wheel off scenario. Under no circumstance should those threads ever be lubed due to the fact that you'll always exceed the factory set torque.... RTFM the proofs in the manuals. A lubed wheel nut torqued using a good, calibrated wrench set to 100 ft.lbs will wind up with a clamping load far exceeding whats set on the wrench and what the studs are rated for in most cases. I wrench professionally in a climate that sees a lot of snow, salt and rust every year and there are tonnes of guys in the rust belts that do this and 9 times out of ten I'm the guy replacing studs because of stretched and damaged threads. Just food for thought, wrench safe.
At my dealership, the guys in the back use ONLY torque sticks. Express Maintenance guys torque stick, drop car, torque wrench... guys in the back torque stick, leave car up, and run through them again and let the gun hammer on there.
@@jodybarrett8832 A little research shows the general opinion is mechanics might use a little WD-40 to clear up rust and wipe off the excess. But some manufacture do recommend 1 or 2 drops of SAE 30-weight oil on hub piloted wheel nuts : oiled torque will be reduced 35 -40% of dry torque spec.
Regardless of what others may/may not criticize you for, at least you take the time and care enough to crack out a torque wrench and use it. Half of the guys I work with:
A - run the lugnuts straight on with nothing but the impact over tightening and most likely crossthreading or
B - do what they can with a 4-way and leave it at that, undertightening
in both situations, without a care in the world for the customer. Good to see another one out there who takes his time and does it right.
I tell my students all the time to use the sticks, then check with the torque wrench to be sure. But always go less than the total value to ensure the proper torque is achieved. Great video!
Having a little trouble with those curbs huh?
Used car. Came that way :-)
50sKid that's what they all say. Lol
Jesus Christ I didn't even notice that until you mentioned it. This guys must be madly in love with cement to be kissing it that goddamn much.
A dork that cant drive
Probably the wife’s car😏
the empactions per second between the two impacts might also make a difference.
Thx for sharing. Always wondered what the colored extensions were...now I know! I always use a torque wrench to verify.
Thanks 50s Kid, I thought this was good input, I have been doing similar testing kinda on the fly with mostly 1inch guns and adjusting the air regulator close to the gun,I have concluded that bigger slower guns are easier to tell than the smaller faster guns that want to keep tightening, the pressure can be regulated near the compressor, but the psi near the gun may need to be increased, as things wear psi may need to be increased, as things are replaced psi may need to be decreased, in a big shop it's hard to get cooperation so we had to go with at the compressor and use the service truck for the tough ones, Thanks for posting.
Torque sticks work on torsion, they absorb rotational force. To work they need to be built with 3 things in mind, 1) desired output, 2) amount of torque input 3) recoil time. Most shops using torque sticks do not use top shelf guns, they use 600-800lb/ft double or single hammer. Knowing this, the manufacturer of the torque sticks can design it to function properly My clutch type nitro cat states specifically it can NOT be used with torque sticks as it does not allow for recoil of the stick. Most shops also require you use the next value lower (by a min of 5lb/ft) stick than final torque and finish by hand with torque wrench.
I see two issues that might be affecting your measurements in a very real way:
1. Static torque vs Dynamic torque ( Wiki static friction for more details on that )
Once the nut is torqued and stops moving, the amount of torque required to get it moving again is significantly greater than the torque that was applied while it was being tightened ( this is called break away torque ). You can actaully see this if you use an old school deflection type torque wrench. For that 95ftlb example that you showed, you'd see the needle on the deflection type torque wrench go up to 95ftlbs, but as soon as it started moving the needle would quickly fall down to maybe as low as 80ftlbs.
2. Torque sticks can ONLY be accurately used with single hammer impact guns ( I don't know if this applies to you )
I once had a conversation with one of the guys that helped design these things. He explained that they worked by acting like a spring. When the proper torque on the fastener is reached, the torque stick flexes like a spring. This happens each time it is struck by the hammer in the impact gun. The torque sticks absorbs the blow by flexing, then springs back. This bounces the hammer in the impact gun back to its home position without rotating the socket/fastener any further.
However, if you have a duel hammer impact gun the 2nd hammer is hitting the torque stick before it is fully retracted. This partially defeats the spring action force absorption in the torque stick causing it to apply a higher torque than its rating.
Had to go through so many comments before someone else saw the torque wrench issue.
If he's getting 95ftlb breakaway, theres no way his 90ftlb torque stick is getting to 90flb tightening torque.
Thanks for the time & effort you took to make this video. I appreciate you much. It was absolutely a help for my wondering mind. You are well spoken and thorough and not a whole lot of BS lol. Thanks again...
There are very different rates of impact in the tools used. The medium duty Milwaukee hits at a much higher rate of speed than the heavier duty impact. It looks like the torque sticks are acting as a spring to absorb the extra energy supplied by the gun. At a slow speed it seems to work well, but at the higher impact rate the extension may not be fully rebounding, or perhaps has even gone resonant or some multiple of resonance that throws off the torque.
Great video and a great demonstration of how the driver changes the response of the torque sticks.
Interesting results. I believe there are two things. 1 is the extra mass of the deep socket vs regular. That could cause a very slight issue (not much). The second and the main reason is the higher rpm/ipm on the mid torque. High torque 2767 (1750rpm/2100 ipm) and the mid torque (2400rpm/3000 ipm). Great test to know about. I personally use both my impacts. Put them on power 1 when tightening and as soon as they are snug I stop. Then I use the torque wrench to make them all the same proper torque. I choose either impact based on the required power difference for nut busting (loosening) not tightening. Heck- my 1/4" m12 or m18 fuel impact driver can do both if needed under 100ft/lbs. Obviously I dont use them for that, but tested them just out of curiosity. If you over torque by a large amount the bolt/nut should be replaced since you permanently stretched the metal. I would rather be safe and under torque and do it by hand.
The Milwaukee mid-torque one-key version has repeatable torque available by changing the amount of torque via a Bluetooth app. Hence the torque sticks become obsolete. This specific mid-torque has three settings and three buttons. I set it like this. 1- 90 ft. lbs for cars. 2- 150 ft. lbs for suvs and 3- max torque for lug removal. This is the best way to do lugs if you can afford it.
You talk SOOOOO PRETTY
@@joelnordstrom8049😂😂😂😂
Did not know about these until this weekend when I had my tires changed at walmart. They used one on my car, but they followed up and checked them with a standard torq wrench.
That is not the concern. Their follow up does nothing to make sure the nuts are not too tight. I have twisted off an impact extension breaking loose lug nuts tightened by a shop.
1D10CRACY best to never go to Walmart for automotive servicing
I work at Walmart and they check how tight the lug nuts are 3 times lol
tri-u watersports the torque sticks don’t over tighten them lol. We use a torque wrench afterwards to see if they’re tight enough but not the extreme
tri-u watersports I’m not saying it’s the right way. It’s not my shop so can’t blame anything on me if I’m following their procedures 🤷♂️
This was a really cool demonstration. I have never used torque sticks before, but now I might pick up a set one of these days. Thanks for making this interesting video!
Thank you for watching!
Thanks for this. Your video needs more science, especially an explanation as to how the torque sticks work. Knowing exactly how something works is the key to understanding situations in which it will malfunction. I made my Ford dealership put a big note on my file. NO TORQUE STICKS. Put on my wheels with a hand torque wrench only. Made a world of difference with pulsation while stopping. Especially on the 1995 Windstar. Got that tip from Smokey Yunnick's column in Popular Mechanics and I actually had to teach it to Ford. Worked like a charm to stop the strong pulsation when braking, especially in the mountains.
I never trusted torque sticks. I am only 21 and have had a couple of jobs at shops. One shop required you to use them and were always on your case about using them. I always torqued wheels with an actual torque wrench to the manufacturers specs. It only took like another 2 minutes and always let me sleep easy at night. Just glad I am not working at that shop anymore
And that is definitely a great way to do it and you didn't go wrong, but I hope I proved to you that my particular 90 ft lb torque stick and impact combo is accurate.
you did yourself a big favor by quitting that kind of shop. you're right, how much more time does it take to do it your way. they don't save time anyway. 2 or 3 minutes on every car, any creep that runs a shop that way is just a jerk.
Assuming you do not go over torque with your gun to begin with in which case the wrench will click always. You want to have the wheel barely touch as to not apply higher push out force on the top of the wheel/hub then torque then drop to the ground then roll forward and torque then backward and torque again then torque again after a 100 or so km at highway/city speeds and bumps and braking to remove any slack that was involved in the process to begin with usually due to corrosion and angle of the dangle.
How often do you or a calibration lab check calibration of your torque wrench? I suggest buying a new one every year, if you aren't already. I have tried to "torque test" wrenches with bolts and weights in comparison, the results vary widely! The thing nobody talks about is coefficient of friction of the bolts, nuts, rims etc...
Used torque sticks my whole career. Three years going on four. Never an issue. I know no professionals who waste time with a torque wrench for wheels, maybe an engine repair but it's tight or it isn't for wheels 😂 no science here guys. How you can tell a green horn
Torque it with impact till it snaps then back it out 1/4 turn 💯
Bad idea
I just hit it with impact, just to wind it up the long threads, then I get out the wheel brace and tighten them from there using my biological torque wrench.
@@SeriousSchitt and what's your biological torque wrench exactly? Lol
Torque it with the impact till your wrists snaps, THEN back it out a quarter turn
That's the dumbest I've seen so far. Tighten your lug nuts insanely high to then slightly undo them blindly. LOL. just LOL.
Awesome video and G5 gave a great explaination about the mid torque gun.
Great video. Never had much faith in torque sticks but from this they look to be worth having. At lest these would allow a person to get them close, to finish with a torque wrench, without overshooting.
".....I'm gonna bump the torque up....up.....up.....up...."
*Strips the bolt*
Never heard of torque sticks before. Good video! Thanks.
I work as a tyre fitter and on truck wheel nuts, get the biggest heaviest socket you can. The extra mass really makes a difference undoing and doing up and extensions take a lot of torque away. And the torque sticks are the go for new cars that have a floating disc that is held on by the wheel, it needs to be torqued or there is a chance of warping disc rotors.
As someone who has used torque sticks almost everyday for 5 years all I have to say is you have to know your impact gun and listen to it or you might under or over.
Lol the instructions clearly said for him to calibrate the gun to the tourque.. so it’s simple user error that he should’ve avoided for the video
The difference in mass of the socket will affect the result - all other things being equal... as it will change the dynamic of the function of the torque stick. Great video tho.
Good video.
I believe that the sticks are made to rotationally flex a certain angle at that specific torque. This angle is related to the angle at which the tool skips to the next position. So the maximum amount of skips per rotation (or angle between skips) that the tool is made with is important.
Nice! Been working at Discount tire for about 6 months and always wandered about this.
Torque sticks aren't as bad as people make them out to be, it comes down to the operator not the tool. Like you said as long as you know how to use them properly, don't keep hammering away when they stop, and test them with a torque wrench to get a feel for them, you're golden. After I got mine I spent a couple weeks verifying the torque on every car and I've been 100% confident since then.
Is what I am going to do is get torque sticks to try.
My step brother Josh is a ftard.
I'm 100% confident he is a TOOL.
I feel sorry for your customers having to have brake work 10k-12 k after you service their vehicles.
Keyboard Mafia! Cracked me up.
Not all Sicilians with computers are mafioso. This is racist. Might as well pick on the German nazis with iPads, Russian commies with Androids, Somali pirates with X-boxes, or Keebler elves next time... Bigot.
Keyboard engineers
Jeremyrockjock I’m an ex-engineer. Well...I suppose you can quit, but you can’t quit being an engineer. Even if it involves light switch covers.
Thank you for all the testing and explanation. Good video👍👍👍👍👍
Good thing the Milwaukee high torque 1/2" impact is on the list for my next trip to Home Depot!
I always run the lug nuts down on a low to medium setting with the impact and then finish with a torque wrench. This is how I do it for my car at 90ft lbs, pickup at 130ft lbs, and semi at 500ft lbs. Using torque sticks would simply be an extra step for me since I would still want to verify using a torque wrench.
Well you get used to whatever impact you use. Each impact will be different but over time you learn what setting and how long to impact to get the desired torque. You don't need torque sticks
True
How you use torque sticks is as follows...
-Throw tires on
-Use torque stick and preferred impact
-final torque lug nuts with torque wrench, if done correctly you should get no more then 90 degrees, this is for speed. Flat rate.
Torque sticks are very reliable, but you never use a tool like this for your final torque. It is irresponsible and not something a qualified mechanic will ever tell you to do. They are designed to allow torque to break so you can move fast in a shop with your high powered tools. I personally use a 65lb stick on passenger vehicles.
Also, ONE click and move on. Never "check" it again by clicking it over and over.
They do work and you will find they are reliable in delivering a consistent torque. What you worry about most is your driving tools ability to insure the lives of the people whose vehicle you are promising is safe to operate.
I get in fights with junior mechanics about this and my answer is always the same. Hand torque wheels or get out.
Thank you for this video. I'm an Automotive Assessment and Repair certification student. This video helps.
I am a first time viewer of your channel. Impressive presentation. One fact to consider could be that the theory of why the nut and bolt work is that the nut stretches the bolt out and then when pressure is released the nut is held by the release pressure on the stretched bolt threads. This changes due to many factors each time it is stretched. Impossible to predict the metal urgency in each bolt in each effort. also, heat is a factor each recurring time. I applaud you for your video. I look forward to following you more.
Personally I would never use these. I tighten them at the lowest setting, then use a torque wrench!
i agree. accept for things like lug nuts (i believe there is about a 15% +/- cushion in those) and a few other non-precision nuts/bolts its ok. But i've seen guys try to torque flywheel nuts on outboards with these. One guy did it to a 225 evinrude... sheared the flywheel key right off because it was under-torqued. don't be lazy... do it the right way ha.
You and me both Bro~!!!
Torque sticks cost me a set of brake rotors and lug nuts and studs. I’ve carried my own torque wrench into tire shops sence then.
Same but these are good for people that are constantly working around wheels like a tyre shop for instants
@@pullenjo no no they are not good for a tire shop. If a guy at a tire shop tried to torque my tires down I'd beat him with it
50sKid Are those shiny bits METAL shavings in the lug wells you're testing? Spec or not, I'd be a LITTLE concerned if I were removing material under the head of ANY fastener I was tightening.
Unless the threads are lubricated, even then sometimes, anytime you tighten a fastener with an impact, you will see that. I work what is a cross between industrial construction and industrial maintenance. I use impacts about as often as ratchets. Largest socket I have used was 6 7/8", but that was on a HYTORC, not impact.
Chris Hurlbut Thanks! To my NON-expert eye, it seemed more like the lug nut seating surface of the wheel was getting ground out. Still, how much material can you lose in a safety application before you have a problem? It may be overcautious, but I was taught to always lube threads whenever torquing to a given value, it never hurts. That way you're not measuring the basic thread resistance of the fastener. YMMV. Cheers!
As far as how much material can be lost depends greatly on the application and what will/can happen in the event of a material or fastener failure. With the amount of material that was in those wells, I wouldn't be concerned. Before my current job, I was in the Navy as an aviation structural mechanic working on H-60 Seahawks. These are the Navys version of the Blackhawk. Some places the limits were incredibly lenient and others were almost non existent amounts of wear allowable. In this case, I wouldn't be worried about it. Probably .005" at most.
Also, depending on the equipment manufacturer, some torque specs specifically call for lubrication and others specifically call for dry. Standard everyday torque specs for off the shelf bolts are usually given for both dry and lubricated. But you are correct, once you get over about 50 ft lbs of torque, a lot of that is just to overcome friction. Most of the time when we run across dry specific torques, it is for areas that have a lot of vibration. Some fasteners though such as superbolts from Nord-Lock, get run down by hand, and then there are more much smaller bolts that run parallel to the main bolt, threaded through the nut. These push on a thick hardened steel washer that put the torque on the bolt with zero torsion. The last ones I used were on 1 1/8' or 1 inch bolts. But the smaller ones were a 5/16 UNC thread. These got torqued to 27 ft lbs and with those 8 smaller bolts put something like 34,000 pounds worth of stretch on the bolt. These were used to hold the large coil springs on a shaker conveyor used in the John Deere Foundry in Iowa.
Chris Hurlbut Thank you for your service, and for your insights. I've not seen those exact fasteners, but have had a little exposure to the huge difference between torque and tension as it applies to broadcast towers. If you torque those bolts, your tower will be wobbly like an amusement park ride. If you tension them with the proper tool, the tower will be solid for life. It was quite a mini education I got! I also learned about structural grade fasteners (makes Grade 8 look like putty), and things like Acme nuts that have a lock pin crimped into the nut. They are one way, one time fasteners. Best to ya!
I would also like to point out that the majority of the material in those wells is the aluminum from the rims, mixed in with a touch from the lug nuts.
I don't do much structural work, but I know those A325 bolts with take massive amounts of strain. Especially the non galvinized ones.
I have the same Harbor Freight set and use a 2yr old Harbor freight air impact at home that's not as strong as it was new, but still quite capable, however .I always follow up with a torque wrench afterwards and usually find they often will tighten some more with torque wrench after before it clicks , Some times I'll intentionally use the 100 ft blue one and find my torque wrench set at 80ft lbs still might even budge one or two. I don't care to have to keep laying into a noodle with an impact gun for more than 2 second per nut to reach the stick rated torque.
Great video, I always wondered whether or not these torque sticks were any good.
The correct way to check bolt torque is to tighten the bolt/nut and mark the position. Next, loosen the bolt and pull it to torque with a torque wrench. If it lands at the same point, it was at the proper torque. Putting a torque wrench on a bolt that has been tightened puts friction caused by the stretched fastener into the equation.
Exactly. There's a spike of torque needed to overcome static friction, so the click when the nut doesn't move does not mean it was brought up to full torque. If the nut doesn't move at least a quarter turn it so before clicking, you need to back it off and try again.
Yeah, Joe's right, it's called break-away torque. A bolt that's been torqued with a perfect torque wrench at say 100 foot pounds may take 105 or more to break free and turn some more. Look up "static friction" and "kinetic friction".
Bingo....somebody who knows what is going on...and dont forget break away torque....Got a buddy who builds race engines...uses snapon on torque wrench....you set the torque, crank it until it beeps, stop...and then read what actual torque is....at first i was 5 lbs to tight @70...took some practice but i can hit the number now....
You are right.. but his torque wrench is probably calibrated to +- 5% of the value. Also, has he had it calibrated in the last 6 months? You're supposed to... I agree that is procedure is technically incorrect, but, the question is if the torque sticks are fairly close (+_ 5 or 10 foot lbs) not dead acurate. No one should use a torque stick to assemble and engine or something where the speciffic torque is very critical. The 2 or 3 ft-lbf error from the incorect porceedure doesn't matter.
And you are correct...you would be surprised how many people dont know that.
The amount of metal shavings I can see in that bolt recess is concerning.. Guess I'll stay with manual tools for that job
Impact-Vector I was thinking the same thing
More the likely from the wheel as they are aluminum and typically your aren’t taking your wheel off and continually loosing and torqueing. I’ve always started the nuts then running them down and snuging them and then torqueing
You can see the lug nuts getting pieces ground off. Its much worse with the smaller impact gun. I think its because it has more impacts per second than the bigger one, so its more vibrations.
I stick to torque wrench to. I never trusted torque sticks.
What difference could it possibly make that there are a few metal shavings. Its an alloy wheel and a steel lug nut which is much harder than the wheel its a given that there will be a bit of metal. Take it from a man who takes car wheels of every day.
Could the different number of faces inside the socket be causing the different results? if it has more play it may be able to bounce the nut tighter?
This is great. I treat torque sticks as a way to ensure you are close. I carry a dewalt mid range cordless impact, lug sockets, and torque sticks in my trunk for quick side of the road tire changes and it’s great for being in the ball park. Which is way closer than if you use a long breaker bar etc. for home use I use a stock 10-20 ft lb less than final torque and always finish torque using that. I’d much rather have and use these than not.
Will they work with any high torque impact wrench? I have found a cordless impact that has 1200 ftlbs of torque and it's high torque.
The key to them working properly is the number of impacts per second. If it's too high, the torque stick will not have enough time to absorb the hit (it is like a spring). So that's why I advocate testing them with a torque wrench to make sure your impact will work properly.
50sKid ok how much torque do you recommend the impact has in order for the torque sticks to give the proper torque?
It only needs slightly more torque than your highest stick. Call it 250 Ft Lbs would do nicely. So if you have a really really old pneumatic impact gun that could do 200-500ft lb or something, that sucker is probably perfect because those don't have super fast impact per second.
that's why my harbor freight earthquake you see me use is perfect for the job.
50sKid how much torque does your harbor freight earthquake have?
Ok I got it now . one ugah no dugah and its about close. 😆
good video, one possible reason for a difference in short or long sockets is that in long sockets, they might "wind up" a little extra torque because of their length, ie a long strip of steel bends more than a short one!!!
I work at a tire shop and we only use torque sticks for zipping down lug nuts before we torque them with a torque wrench. Most Japanese and Korean compact cars are 76/80/90ft lb, most mini vans, full size american sedans, and small suvs are around 100 ft lb. most full size trucks, full size work vans, and full size suvs such as tahoes and suburbans are around 140-150 ft lb.
For precision use a torque wrench. Torque sticks get it close but not as accurate.
You got it., just start threads by hand, train your trigger finger on the impact, and torque away.
I have the H.F. torque sticks and they work great. Some bozos see the Pittsburgh brand name and assume that H.F. has their own factory in China where they make everything. These torque sticks are made in Taiwan and are most likely sold under an number of brand names.
Yes, it does matter if you calibrate your impact wrench to your torque sticks, that's exactly why you are not getting correct results and exactly why the maker of the tool tells you to do so. I use my mid-range cordless with no problems.
More mass equals greater hitting power. There are sockets that are made just to remove Honda crank bolts. They have greater mass for a reason.
Never assume a torque wrench, even a new one, is correct. I returned a brand new Craftsman Digi-Click because it was 16 pounds foot over at 100 - that's pretty substantial. I verified this with my digital torque adapters, (two different ones for verification). They can be had for as little as $30US.
Don't get too pedantic about torquing your wheels. Even the best torque wrench is going to measure different from click-to-click. I used whatever wrench that came with the car for almost 35 years before using a torque wrench and never had a problem. If you watch the old racing videos on RUclips, they never used a torque wrench when building a car - or for pit stops either.
Do you know if the new Milwaukee gen 2 mid torque impact gun still has a problem with the torque sticks?
I've been using a Matco 80 stick for over 25 years working on Hondas with no problems. You can cause (runout) warpage to the rotor and or hub assembly by using uneven excessive torque.
Are we testing h.f. torque sticks with a h.f. torque wrench?
No Future 68 the torque wrench is crafts man I think.
Yeah that is a Craftsman 1/2inch drive torque wrench... I own the same model.
They are both Milwaukee, I don't think you can get that brand at HF since its a top of the line company. I think the brand that HF has is Hercules, or something like that.
I picked up a digital hf digital torque adapter and tested it against my snap on clicker torque wrench, both showed the same values to my surprise
Who cares, hf torque wrenchs work fine. As any toll, even the name brand torque wrench brands have had their share of issues.
The thing about engineers is they know how things work in the real world vs what's actually, really, physically going on, so you might be mistaken in thinking we have all the answers for you, but I think I can provide some insight on this issue nonetheless.
A torque stick relies upon friction; friction within a lattice of, basically, iron atoms, laced with alloys and carbon atoms... a mix which we commonly refer to as steel.
Now, the thing about friction is, it's made up of two parts: static friction and dynamic friction. I.e. the force required to get it moving and the force required to keep it moving are different, where the dynamic friction is lower.
And, basically, torque sticks ride that equilibrium: they're weak enough so pneumatic and full torque electric impact tools, initially, smash through the static fase, but then get limited by the mallibility of the material, whereas medium torque electric tools never quiclky overcome initial friction and, thus, end up overtorquing fasteners.
That's exactly how I explained torque sticks to a few people and why a proper impact wrench is needed. I've been very happy with them since I made my purchase. I always use a torque wrench set to a few ft/lbs above the rating of the torque stick and always feel the nut turn a bit before the wrench clicks. Perfect for my needs.
when i was working at a tire shop the torque sticks the had weren't just extension bars, the stick had the socket on the end of it
where did these torque sticks come from?
Would you think the monster lithium snapon 18v 1/2in impact would work with torque sticks??
“Don’t care what the instructions say about calibrating to your gun” yet the issue up until that statement is that the torque sticks aren’t precise.
Aaaaaand thats enough of that video then.
I would make a guess that the mid torque impact has higher IPM's which is in a sense overcoming the torque stick ability to absorb the impact.
That is exactly right
would they work with a 1/2 m12 stubby or would that have the same problem as the mid torgue?
Great video. Just a comment on calibration. I used to be in the calibration industry for all precision measuring equipment. I had a brand new Snap On 250 ft/lb torque wrench that just came out of its packaging and it was out 80 ft/lbs at the higher end of its measuring spectrum. Just a heads up.
I have been doing this for 40 years and here's my take on it. If I grab an 80 lb stick and it torques within 5 to 7 lb, that's no different and using the torque wrench that's been laying in your toolbox for the last 10 years and never being out for recalibration. Why do you think most Snap-on dealers have installed torque wrench Checkers on their truck now? To sell re calibration service because they know 90% of the torque wrenches in tool boxes are not calibrated. If I get them to within 5 or 7 lb my customers can get them off, they're even so I'm not going to warp a rotor, and I am doing a lot more to get them right then the other 50% of technician population that Just throws a socket on a gun and hammers them down.
What I learned from this video:
To stop tightening a bolt once its at the correct tightness.
If you feel like repeating this, test the torque with a beam type torque wrench. The click type ones can have a lot of error before they click if something is already tight.
In my shop, we use the torque sticks with the built in head, no socket needs to be used.
We always hand torque them after using the torque sticks, and usually the lug-nuts will turn a bit more with the hand torquing.
The torque sticks get the lug-nuts close to the factory torque spec, but always hand torque with a torque wrench to get them exactly where they need to be. It's just a tool to get them close, not exactly on.
Saw 50skid in front of Pearl Harbor Freight chasing his runaway BMW rim after all the lug nuts snapped
borrow a dial torque wrench and test again.
Your a perfectly right: only a continous measure gives dependable information.
So I was looking for the torque stick with the 21 mm socket already on it and snapon as 17mm and 22 mm ??? Am I missing something no 21 mm ?
I know I can get the extension but I wanted the one with the socket on it (dedicated) sounds weird but I guess it’s called that
Darn! Just got the mid torque impact and was excited to pick up a set of torque sticks!
sorry man!
I worked at a mini dealership and all the guys there use sticks. Never had a wheel come loose from any of them.
But, how many brake rotors were warped?
Stephen Peterson not one.
why because the warranty covers brake rotor warp caused by techs ? and stealerships never want to pay for warranty jobs so they lie about it and say thats not rotor warp thats wear and tear
I never got a car back warped that I put brakes on
Never heard of that kind of tool. Cannot even find such products in german. Maybe wrong translation. Could you give me part numbers for such a tool from a global manufacturer? KS Tools, Hazet, Chicago pneumatic,...
I would guess the different inertia of the Deep and shallow sockets is the main reason for different results. Didnt you Talk about Cheater sockets in other Videos? The heavier socket might be something like this in this case.
+Sebastian99 I don't know how to find out what brands are global, but this is one of the sets you can find here: www.amazon.com/Astro-78810-10-Piece-Limiting-Extension/dp/B007K92N7M
Thanks. I meant something like Snap On, Würth,... brands you also get outside USA. Harborfreight is a pretty local brand from my pov in Europe.
Sebastian99 accutorq was the original manufacturer of them, based out of Sweden
Unter „Torsionsstäbe“ gibt es die bei einigen Händlern von Gedore, Ko-ken oder KS Tools
That's because the Germans probably engineer the head to bust off at the proper torque.... lol
Astro Pneumatic Tool® 78810?
You touched on to a very important part of physics. Sympathetic vibrations, or “resonance”, is achieved at a certain specific frequency of impacts in combination with the weight of the socket/extension used. When you approach that “ideal” combination, the torque stick becomes less predictable and peak torque will exceed the specifications of the torque stick.
What is the torque of a 12 mm bolt using a click type torque wrench,also 14 mm and 17 mm bolt? Please tell me,thanks.
3 ughas lol good to stop then
It’s ugha duggas- SMA
Wheel Torque is not that critical if you know what you are doing. Can you say warped rotor, I can use my Impact alone to get desired results. Within reason, I would say that sequence is way more important than the torque. Torque Sticks are perfectly fine + - 10 ft lbs will not cause a problem whereas improper sequence can make all the difference. But hey, that is just a 40 Year guess.
Absolutely, but it's still best to not over-torque nuts as the threads can stretch over time.
Wheel torque is very critical. While you maybe off 5 ft lbs, as long as every lugnut is the same its not as bad, but you seem to think + or - 10 ft lbs is not a big deal. So your talking about potentially having some lugs at 90 and others 110. That's 20 ft lbs difference. That's quite a difference when your talking about something at 100 ft lbs. whats worse is a mute point. The point is your still damaging rotors. You might not see it right away, but 10-12k miles your customers are experience brake pulsations. I'm sure you have no problem selling them a brake job not understanding it may have been a result of your own doing and not following OEM requirements. But what do I know, I only have a degree in auto technology, seen this first hand, have been a engineers at one of the big 3, and worked as head of quality control. Oh yea, I am also a certified mechanic and worked as one for a good number of years too.
Do you think deep sockets and short sockets will give different results when torquing a bolt, and with, or even without an extension bar, with a regular ratchet?
And will results vary from a ½ and ⅜?
Or would it be the same?
Doesn't air pressure in the compressor lines come into play too when using torque sticks?