Inerstin! I've done similar with the hot/cold cycles using the microwave oven. Microwave to about 150 dF, cool to room temp, into the freezer for 3 or 4 hours, back to room temp, aerate by vigorously shaking, and begin the process again. I'm near 72 yo and don't feel particularly confident waiting 2 or 3 years for a run of likker to age. There's a chance it could outlive me.
:) 🥂 Yes, it is true. In fact at the start of my experiments I use oak wood, but now I drink as it is. Good taste is after 1/2 of year in the jar with wood. Better is after 1 year - good quality drink. I agree with Jesse about wood taste after 1 month in ordinary aging process and I think "white" is better for all who make small amounts of spirits. For mega distillers it is different of course. Cheers! 🥃 P.S. Maybe... we can prepare wood alone - it means we can try to "marinate the wood". It is like that - take wood and sprinkle with water and le it "ferment" themselves. Than when we start to smell "whiskey flavor" of the wood we add it in the spirits. Why I say so? Because we in our property chuck oak wood which was laying long time under the rain... and wood ferment themselves and when we chop this peace of wood we smell Whiskey!!!
Great discussion. My takeaway is more wood and the hot cold cycling. In my limited experience and even sketchier test processes, staves need more time in the hot/cold cyces than the chips (which I attribute to surface area) . I use Sous Vide 45 minute cycles hot bath /.ice cycles to good effect (to me) for chips. I tried the same with staves (but different whiskey) and I thought it came up a bit short. This pretty much confirmed to me that the cycles do something special.
Awesome experiment. It is exactly what I have been doing for years. Over saturate for a little bit and then remove the wood and let it age with only 1 very small stave. Best I have got was 2 years old and that stuff was very tasty.
I had a friend build me a barrel by hand in his wood ship. He is chasing the wood craft as I am chasing the distilling craft. Dropping an all grain cut to 125 proof (1.5 gallon) and we will try it when he gets back from Florida in 6 months. While we wait I will try to force age a bit on the side to compare. Great video!
I've been doing a similar experiment here in Arizona. I am a bartender and wanted to make an oak tincture. I put wood chips of varying char level and grain alcohol and mason jar and put it in my shed outdoors to meet the heat and weather. It has been almost a year and it is going through its first Arizona summer. I have yet to try it so I'm excited to see how it comes out. The color is dark, dark, like black dark.
Good stuff. No harm in trying stuff. Scotch malt is very complex, that's why it's made here only but I love the attempts you've done and your enthusiasm. Maybe try 2+3 together
thank you thank you thank you !!! I am in my second distillation of all grains and I have a thousand questions ... but I am not going to ask anything I am just going to thank you again ... this hobby is so exasperating as exciting! thanks again !
Watching this after watching your lengthy podcast interview with the Kentucky cooper was very informative. I came away from that interview thinking that aging with a variety of chips with a combination or charred, light, and medium toast could lead to accelerated and more balanced aging. I recommend that podcast to all home distillers. It is long but absolutely packed with meaningful information from a truly authoritative source.
I've done nearly the same process the last few batches I've made. Over oak the crap out of it for 3 weeks, placed mine in a heating duct farthest from the furnace over night and in the refrigerator during the day several times during that time. Pull the oak save for a small piece of heavily charred oak and store untill ready to drink. Pretty sure it was you that gave me the idea to do this from a previous video.
so had a buddy doing certain things on a stovetop....im glad you didnt show it considering i have seen a fireproof door shoved halfway thru a ceiling because my buddy almost killed us, it was open..... if it had been closed I think we wouldn't have survived
Just a thought, chips seem more rapid and intense, warming seems to add smooth esthers, preloading helped the caramelising from the oak... How about trying the preload and the warm/cold cycles and check the results?
Dude! Great video, this is essentially what I've been doing. I start with 2 liters clear spirit, then make up a bundle with 75 grams toasted/lightly charred chips and drop that in. At the same time I put in 3 2x2x15 centimeter charred staves. I tend to dark char just one side of those. I leave the chips for one week, then pull them and leave the staves for up to 4 months. (Whenever I think about I move the jar from a warm room to a cool room in the basement) Then pull the staves and let the product rest for at least a week. This seems to make a decent imitation of a bourbon. Folks seem to enjoy it quite a lot. On another note, a Crockpot work great for a water bath.
Revisited this a year later. What I do is temp cycle with staves, but slower, I get it to 60c in a bath in a slowcooker on high for a couple hours, then on warm for 6 - 8 hours find it around 45c, then room temp for 24h, burp, shake then fridge for 24h, burp, room temp, burp and back to heat... 6 - 8 times like that, then let it sit for 3 months with an occasional burp and shake. I think it works pretty well and seems to give an effect that is not quite equivalent to years, but is more than just tea bagged for sure.
Humm. Maybe try hot/cold cycles, but less extreme and more of them. And introducing oxygen by opening jars a few times. Thus simulating Texas weather and the interaction of the spirit with the outside air thru the wood as it would in life size barrels.
Jesse, you said you needed a Bain-Marie. You could actually use your large brew kettle with the Grain basket and your inkbird. Done that before using a small 1k element to heat up like 10lt of water and keep it at a specific temp. Works like a champ.
22:50 I'd like to know what the hot/cold cycle does to the white (un-oaked) spirit. Does the "esterification" happen to the spirit without the presence of oak. BTW, having wifey there to call BS on your tasting notes was pure gold. I'd like to see more of that. 🤣 Neat experiment, I've tried to do something similar to fermented but uncarbonated strong beer, like strong Scotch ale and Barleywine.
I occasionally nuke in the microwave for 3mins then sit in the fridge overnight and then let it sit back at room temperature before bottling.. taste is fuller and not peppery. Great experiment you did.
Cool video. Interesting. If I’ve learned one thing over the course of time… It’s relatively easy to make something look “aged”… It’s virtually impossible to make something young taste aged. But that doesn’t mean you can’t keep trying.😊👍🥃
Yup, agreed! colour is easy. Taste & mouthfeel is something else entirely. Thats why this is kinda intreeging to me. I think I did a bad job of explaining in the video. But the point is not to do this just for a month. But to do this before ageing for say a year. Hoping to get a jump start on that.
@@StillIt Absolutely… I’ve got a corn and a rye whiskey headed on 2 years old. The nose is phenomenal… the taste is still a little bit too much alcohol. But it gets better every time I sample it. I jarred and Oaked it at 110 proof which probably contributes to the heavy alcohol taste. But I’m looking forward to seeing how it develops. You did fine explaining it… It’s really just doing it yourself and WAITING.🤣🤣🤣… and waiting. Good stuff.🥃👍
Great video!! ---->I think every chemistry guy will tell you: you should organize a protocol, answering precise questions, maybe 1 at the time. (As you have acknoledge) BUT, I enjoyed very much the video, is is spontaneous and fun, very good the idea of others tasting the prod beside you. You inspired me!!!! LOL
Right on, great tests dude. I've been messing with hot/cold cycling for a while and think that the biggest changes are related to pressure (positive and negative pressure) within the glass jars and not so much related to temperature, although I think temp change plays another role with the wood. By taking sealed jars of cold liquid out of the freezer and warming them up creates positive pressure in the jar and drives the alcohol deeper into the wood pores like time in a barrel. Then putting the hot liquid into the freezer creates a negative pressure within the jar and I think that pulls alcohol deep from within the wood simulating time in a barrel. I haven't played with a vacuum yet but think it may create similar results. Note that I open the jars to equalize the pressure before each high/low cycle so I get the highest possible passive pressure change.
Get yourself a vacuum chamber, I highly recommend. Pressure pot on the other hand, you can pass. It is super interesting to play with pressure using temperature and the adverse from nature (ie. Vacuum in cold pressure in hot) cheers!
Have you tried aging in a vacuum environment. Similar to how meats can be marinated almost instantly by being put in a tumbling vacuum barrel and then afterwards quickly releasing the vacuum? Vacuum pulls out of the wood. Then quick release abruptly forces liquids into the wood. Then letting it sit for 2-4 weeks.
I'm not making my own spirits at this point but thoroughly enjoy your content, Jesse. I think it's great how you continue to try so many different things. You're doing great and you have an awesome attitude. Thanks for everything so far Jesse!
Hi. I don't know where else to put this, so I am going to chuck it out here. I used to work for a government engineering section many years ago, so cannot talk about specifics, however. "At work one day" we were playing with liquids under pressure and their effects on something else. Why I am putting this here is the smell of the liquids would change significantly when pressurised, especially if the liquids were raised in temperature. And if my memory serves me well? The higher the temperature and pressure, the more the smell would change favourably. I do remember thinking it went from the worse smelling environment to the best smelling. We're talking industrial paint, acid smell to tropical Sea air and cakes. Has this been tried on spirit?
Interesting man. Was this pressurising the liquid, releasing pressure then smelling it? Or were you under pressure with the liquid? I have seen people using pressurised vessels to force age in. Ambient pressure has long been talked about in terms of forcing whiskey into and out of the barrel, gaining more interaction with the oak. I think this sounds like something slightly different though. Interesting.
@@StillIt the smell was not the goal. It was a very pleasant byproduct when preasure was released. It did not smell good before. I used to gag with some of the concoctions. They where preasurised for long periods at 15700 psi.
when im doing liqueurs with fruit like blueberrys and cranberry, I add the fruit and alcohol to a large jar, heat it in a water bath till its about at boiling. then put an airtight lid on it. this gets all the air out the jar. The gas thats left behind is alcohol vapour. so when it cools the presure in the jar drops. then cycle the jar from a few days on a hot radiator to a few days in the frezer. and then repeat several times. it ages it a year in a few weeks. the low presure realy seems to help the ageing process. driving the alcohol into the fruit and pulling the flavour out. it may be worth a try with your whisky.
Hello. Have you ever experimented with BBQ/smoker wood chips like hickory, maple, alder, cherry. apple wood chips etc as an alternative ageing wood and how their flavour profiles are VS the traditional oak chips?
Another great vid. I have been trying staves in jars with summer heat and ac. So 72f to 105 f. Some were great some were astringent and so reduced the proof and amount of wood to just one small piece of oak charred to near charcoal. Hoping for sugars and some filtering to occur. Set in basement at 60 f for 6 mo now and counting. Got some bitterness out and some funk in a few jars. Fun process experimenting
I was throwing some more wood into my potbelly in he shed one day and thought i wonder what it would taste like if i put some Australian Redgum in one of my jars and let it age, Now its all i do. Love the flavour and i feel its unique to my tatse.
Hello, have you thought about using a vacuum to suck the air out of the wood so it draws it into the wood when released. Also I had an idea for a vid, could you do sugar washes but using different types of sugar, same volumes liquid, same yeast, same weight of sugar. Thanks 👍🏻
If you crack the lid of the jar then reseal after heating you release the pressure created, it pulls a vacuum as it cools to room temperature. The vacuum increases when goes in the freezer. If you crack the lid when it comes out of the freezer then reseal,air entering the jar will be chilled and when it returns to room temperature it will pressurize the jar even before it is heated.
@@AgeWhiskey - And a true vacuum chamber isn't necessary either. Many of the common "food save" type appliances have a mason jar attachment. Super easy.
@@andyh7537 really? This is the first I have heard of this. I thought you use heat the create the vacuum. Do you have a link? I wonder how high it can get the pressure?
You can make the vacum sealant diy. Make small hole, put a tape on the hole and the hole part put another tape on the glue. And suck the air out using vacuum sealer.
I had an interesting thought while watching this video. What if you put the jar in a vacuum chamber? It will force pull the air and water/sap/flavor out of the oak. It may give an interesting affect... just a thought. Keep up the awesome work! I love the channel!
Hi Jesse did a whiskey grain wash and when put onto still it spurge and went out of control had to turn still of.What am I doing wrong ?Keep up the great work love watching your videos, Cheers 🥃
Hi Jessie. I've read from a few folks on the home distiller forum that you can deliberately over-oak a whiskey, pull all of the wood out, and somehow the spirit will keep aging? Supposedly, the bits the whiskey pulled out of the wood are in solution but haven't transformed the spirit yet, and as long as you leave it with some headspace, it will continue doing a bit of what wood does on its own. I'm not sure if that's just oxidation from headspace, or only applicable to freshly distilled spirits that sorta mellow out even without wood over the first year or two. . . I've also heard from some folks that they left their over-oaked product on wood without removing any, and eventually it sorta self corrected after nearly a year or two. . . What do you reckon about these strange reports? The common curiosity here is that these spirits had the same amount of wood throughout and time was what carried it to a supposedly good result.
There is an established relationship between reaction rate and temperature. Generally people use a variation on the Arrhenius equation and the rule of thumb derived from that is every 10°C (18° Freedom units) increase in temperature doubles the reaction rate. So the during the high temp cycles reactions were happening ~8-9 times faster. I think that could outweigh the cycling effect with the oak. If you just kept it at high temp for the same amount of time you might end up with something similar to the cycling experiment. - a geochemist.
This is actually something I had been thinking about. Nice to hear it from someone that knows their stuff. The idea with changing temps is it changes pressure pushing alcohol into and out of the wood. Intuition seems to tell me that's slightly different with the wood and alcohol being inside a closed system. (As apposed to a barrel where the wood is the barrier). Thoughts? Although, it really dose seem to jump in color after a cold cycle.
@@StillIt I think with the wood basically being immersed that pressure variation isn't going to do much. There isn't really a pressure gradient to force flow, especially with chips that are going to be fully saturated. Even the staves are going to have exposed end grain. The main mode of exchange would be diffusion, which would also increase with temp. Cold temperature might effect the oils...? That's getting into an area where your guess is as good as mine. I don't do petroleum geochem.
I also love to make apple pie with apple brandy. But the twist is I let it age for two years after cooking the cider, juice and spices with brown sugar and then after it sits in the shed for two yrs through cold winters and hot summers I rack it off the sediment and it’s an apple juice colored liquor that’s clear and very smooth and tasty. The age makes a huge dif
Very cool experiment Jesse. I do have an idea you might want to try if you are interested. I was watching Popcorn Sutton's "the last one" and I notcied that he was mashing in with a charred white oak barrel. Have you ever thought about throwing in some heavy toasted oak cubes into your mash during the fermentation process?
Interesting. With regards to forced aging, my mind always immediately jumps to ultrasonic baths / solutions to achieve it. Essentially, just dropping an ultrasonic element into the alcohol and wood container and letting it rip. I would love to see how that compares to the warm/cold method.
I have been using a sous vide for a coupe years now to age my shine and fruit juice mixtures, I got better and more vibrant flavors at 3 hours at 130 degrees than I get from the natural age of 1 month of sitting on the shelf. Ultimately seems to peek at 1 week after the sous vide treatment for best flavour
In the old days, a ship write would steam the wood to soften it up so it could be bent into shape. Maybe this process can be applied in this instance? Steaming the wood opens up the pours in the wood and if it's placed into the alcohol in that state, it could speed up the enzyme extraction process. Also, using smaller branches in this fashion would help too because it would take less time.
I have no idea what chemical reactions happen during aging (too far outside my field of expertise) - but I think it's fair to say that a rule of thumb for any chemical reaction is that it will speed up with higher temperature, usually by quite a lot. So my naive logic is that a solution might simply be to DIY a hot-box out of something insulated like a portable cooler with a temperature controller and a small heater element. Then just store it at the highest temperature that is practical (ie. definitely well below the boiling temperature at least), and that should "speed up time" significantly in terms of any chemical interactions. If you insulate the bejeezus out of the hotbox (a little mylar and some old blankets would go a long way) then the heat-loss (and thus electricity cost to run continously) should be very low. Probably wise to store a device like this in a relatively fire-proof area just in case something should malfunction. Safety first :)
Good video,love using wife's taste buds,I have tried about five oaks,different amounts, different roast,what I have found with my tasters,they all agree roasted French oak is too strong, oily taste,so far,in my rookie opinion the Jack Daniel's barrel chips create a nice color and taste,I put 2 Oz per quart,I dry them out with no roast,actually put them in right out of the oven,so they rehydrate in the spirit, then leave in until the color,no time involved, Like a dark honey,great stuff you pack in my old ass brain!
What about bubbling a bit of ozone through the spirit for a short while to oxidize some of the chemicals to change. Simulating the oxygen, wood, spirit cross section of the barrel?
Hey, it would be great if you could overlay what the glasses are during the tastings ... when I have to stop and start watching tasting vids like this I get lost as to which is which! Great video and super informative otherwise, thank you!
If you regularly go fishing in an boat, take the cask with you as a fishing buddy..it will speed up the process and infuse a traditional nautical flavour ….it will also encourage you to do more fishing trips
I also have been messing around with Gin. Very similar to what you did with the hopped Gin using botanicals and citrus suspended over the spirit BUT, using the knowledge from Bearded about sun aging. A few days in the sun and chilling over each night has worked great.
I've just started a supercharging experiment with oxygenation at the centre of it - basically I'm playing with a batch of nicely oaked (whisky style) product - which already has a tasty little smoke, biscuit, caramel and vanilla thing going on. It was a blend of product coming from mixing two products - one from a sugar wash and the other from an all grain mash (which was about 50% peated malted grain). The second gave me a whisky that was a bit too smokey - so that's why I tamed it down with the white dog. I've got an aquarium pump running air through it now via some fine bubble aeration stones. I've kept a small sample aside as a benchmark for comparison later - so I think I'll run the thing for a week and compare back to the sample of base product. Who am I kidding? - I'll likely be testing it every day - but I'll do a more formal test after a week. When I started hearing of folks supercharging the 'transformation' process, post oak - I thought - that would be inaccessible because I can't get my hands on - or want to pay for - oxygen. But then it struck me, our air has about 21% oxygen in it already - so here we go, it's worth a shot. I'll share the results and let you know if and how much it helped. I'll also run this with 43% ABV at start - and see if the aeration process might give too much share to the Whisky fairy.
Hey Jesse, if you are wanting to do a sous vide system just use the temp prob that you use for your temp control chamber on the T500 boiler have done this to do a tomahawk steak works great :) I also use this setup for my janky HLT for my dive into all grain
I did an experiment with a sous vide machine in and out at 65°C (around boiling point of methanol but under ethanol) over about six weeks. Turned out better than several US craft bourbons we tasted it against. Maybe not a fair comparison since it was a rye base, but it was purchased commercial unaged spirit stuff and only 50% abv, which isn't optimal as it pulls out more water soluble stuff from the wood. I incorporated a platinum wire catalyst and some UV light blasting too. I didn't take great timeline notes, but I noticed it went ok, ok, smells great but ok, smells great tastes ok, smells great tastes pretty good, smells great tastes off. But was recoverable by adding some untreated and re-processing.
@@AgeWhiskey My thinking is that it could help accelerate any chemical reactions. What I want to test next is a mix of a heavily heat-oaked and UV, and maybe oxygen exposed sample with a completely new make sample (ratio uncertain at this time), remove the oak then heat and agitate that with the catalyst. I was just thinking about the big barrels the major distillers use. I don't think that age is just a continuous or more extraction of wood stuff. I think it's a combination of drawing a set amount of chemicals from the wood into the spirit immediately in contact with the wood, and those chemicals slowly diffuse into the much larger volume of spirit in the middle and slowly chemically react. The platinum is just supposed to help speed up whatever chemistry/magic may or may not happen. Not super scientific. I used an extremely fine but fairly long wire I just put in the jar. Decent surface area without too much material because platinum wire is freaking expensive. Do you know how big volume the long-term aged casks that the big distillers use? I think we as hobbyists are going a bit in the wrong direction thinking that more wood surface area equals "faster" aging. I want to try with a fairly wood-concentrated amount combined with new make and try to accelerate any chemistry between them. A rough barrel volume could help me get a surface area: volume ratio to start with for oaked:new make.
@@dimman77 I do. The large barrels are 53 gallons. I broke down some surface area calculations in this video ruclips.net/video/qVvA66gRRjY/видео.html Check the description for a link to the project document with all the detailed equations.
Age wine with chips, dry chips, put in for aging to "finish" it. It gives it the fancy shmancy "sherry cask finish" look :) Quarter cup worth for the little jar.
I have a larch tree in my garden that I used. I know it is soft wood but when I roasted and charred it and put it into vodka, it really gets a whiskey flavor. Any advice? I know it’s a soft wood but tastes great
I can across a RUclips site that used 2 year old oak staves. The process is. Use 100g of wood to a 1000ml 60% spirit. Put wood into jar and pour boiling water in. Leave for 12 hours. After 12 hours dry on tray for 12 hours. After 12 hours cook wood in oven @ 150 for 1 hour. Then grill for 20 mins @ same temp. Then put wood into jar with spirit for 10 days. At end pour spirit into bottle add 1 teaspoon of raw sugar. I have used Rata staves instead of oak. After 8 days the spirit is a nice golden colour and tastes great
The other mechanism that seems plausible for the preload-and-remove case is that different flavor compounds can have different dissolution rates out of the wood, so the stuff you are primarily pulling out for the first week can be a different ratio than the stuff you'll pull out over a month. That mechanism dominates coffee extraction (a couple minutes extra and you're pulling a lot of bitter), but I wouldn't rule it out for wood extraction on these timescales. Of course, it's probably both. Actually, what might be really interesting is to load up the whiskey with fresh oak to start with, to get something to work with, and then switch to thoroughly used oak to provide somewhere for the reactions to take place.
I found this really interesting... unfortunately I drink too much of my moonshine to allow me to test this... the thing that my whiskey is missing and I want to find a way to replicate is the peat smoke of good scotch/Irish whiskey? I have started messing with peat some essences? Just 1ml per litre at this stage but I’m going to up that? But I would rather a way of emulating this factor without essences...
one thing came to my mind when you "shaved" down one of the chunks: in a barrel, first (& most?) contact is with the charred side, so more or less all substances "seep" through that layer. Using staves, there's a lot of raw surface (and you reduced the charred surface even more when cutting down the edges...) if not burnt completely...
I know from my own experiences with jack Daniels oak chips that I toasted very unscientifically with a torch, and apple brandy that was 65% when the chips were added I got a lot of tannin but it brought out loads of sweetness on the nose and lots of fire and pepper on the back end of the taste. I also may have over done it with the wood chips and I forgot about it for over 6 months. But when blended back with the original white dog it was pretty smooth. Nothing scientific or exact in my experiment. Wish I had a barrel for aging. Cheers
Now you just poke the bear...I have been thinking of doing a test like this but with 96 abv alcohol and a totally different wood profile. I don't have any white oak, but many different local trees used in wine industry. I'm going to try different ABVs, toast levels, and wood amounts. I'll let you know by patreons how that goes. Thank as usual...interesting experiments!
I went on eBay here in the US and found red wine barrel oak chips under smoker/BBQ. Figure they might work as a "finish" oaking. Kind of like Scotch that has a sherry finish
Would it be worthwhile buying a heated ultrasonic cleaner to agitate the wood while heating it to draw the flavour of the wood out? Can set the heat and timer for 'x' amount of time for the agitation? 🤔🤔
Would you consider tasting a commercial product we can get and taste along with you? This would help make some of your comments like "dusty" clearer to us. Thanks
Aging is like making chili. You can get really fancy and professional but the one thing you can't replicate is time. Edit I am ready interested in the process though. Sorry second edit.... Would adding shaved oak into the mix during the distilling process change the flavor? I live in America and don't have a license to distill. So I'm living vicariously through your channel lol.
would burning oak an collecting the smoke and letting in condense in a jar create an ingredient that could help with this process, also do you think "tea baging" in a pressure cooker help maybe with the water that is used for watering down to 40%?
I curious to know, if you put the charred oak in your still or in a thumper of the flavors would transfer into the clear spirit. Mabe an idea for another video.
Not so sure about having the oak in the vapour path. I could try that for sure. I think a lot of the wood flavours are big heavy molecues ( I could be wrong there). But I did put a vid out a while back re distilling a wood aged spirit. That was interesting. It definitly didnt taste like newmake!
Great vid. Aging vs "Oaking" is always one of those controversial topics. You summed it up very well. Gave good credence to what actually time changes.
Hey Jesse,worked my way through the BB's Rum thread and there was a point where you pulled out 2 liters 3 times to mix and match some follow up procedure. One sample was to be refluxed for a set period and then run through a pot still to see if that process did in fact kick up/impact esters etc. I was very interested in this and couldn't find where you actually followed through, Did you actually do this experiment and if so what was the result? I realize this is off topic but I figured my best bet at catching your eye was on the latest thread. Thanks for any insight.
I look forward to seeing how these experiments pan out over the course of a year or more. It's fair that the heat cycling and initial loading of oak will cause an increase in flavor over the short term. My experimentation so far has shown that less oak over time will yield a better final product. More complex, fruity, and caramel notes seem to show up that way.
I did a bad job of explaining. The point was not for this to be a one and done method over a month. More a launch pad for a longer aging, as you say perhaps a year.
I am a master distiller with 8 Shires Coloniale Distillery, Williamsburg, VA. I have my own lab where I have about 100 experiments with aging of all kinds. The more toast on the wood, the richer the color and better the flavors. It's not surface area. Never was. The deeper the toast into the wood, the better. But all we are talking about at the moment is making a wood extract. There is no such thing as speed aging. What goes on inside of a barrel requires constant but minimal air exchange. What is going on that creates the true magic is floral esters no different than what flowers produce. That can not be replicated in a jar nor can you speed up the process. Speed aging has been tried by all the large distilleries and all have abandoned the idea. You can't replicate the floral esters any faster. Proof I'd also a major factor in aging. You want to be between 110 proof and 125 proof. What happens if you try a higher proof of say 150? Nasty green tone tastes and much higher angles share. My lab I only test various woods to see what the flavor profiles bring. I mix oak with cherry wood or apple wood or both cheery and apple. That is all I play with. I still age an average of 4 years minimum. I toast my own wood for consistency. This is easily done in a toaster oven.
Thanks for posting. IMO, you can speed up aging somewhat by using smaller barrels. But yeah, your point is well taken. There is no instant or super-quick aging.
@@mikewilson9315 Hey Mike. We have also used smaller barrels. 5 gallon size. You can produce very decent results in a shorter period of time, but you still do not get the rich complexity of esters as you do from longer aging in larger barrels. We do use some smaller barrels for special releases where our objective is to duplicate ancient flavors. This is usually done side by side with larger less expensive releases produced in similar fashion. Smaller isn't better though I don't knock it that hard.
@@thisguy5254 Hello this guy. I never char my wood. I toast for about 20 minutes. That is usually deep enough. About 410 to 425 degrees. Char does not add to flavor. Never did. Char is only a filter mechanism. Nothing more. I use small wood shavings.
Iv always had the Idea of putting my new spirit in a small barrel and put the barrel into a vacuum chamber to simulate the change's in pressure that make the spirit pull into and out of the oak
Have yolu by chance tried Sous Vide for forced nuke aging back and forth between freezer and sous vide to see if it makes a difference? Also I have tried expiermenting with the wood chunks and wood smoking chip sized to see the differences as well. I feel like the wood chips are much easier to toast up and force age pre load in about a week
we always hear that whiskey does not age in the bottle, so once you remove all the wood, does esterification stop? or is there enough stuff in there to continue to age your young spirit?
Yeah this is a interesting one I have thought about a lot as well. I think you are right that in young spirit there is probably some chemical changes left to happen. Especially on short scale times that we are talking (1- 12 months "aging" and a few months in the bottle). As apposed to years in the barrel and years in the bottle. The short answer is Im really not sure. But my gut instinct is to agree.
I've heard even vodka makers 'age' their spirit somewhat, letting it sit for a few weeks. In my experience, those few weeks can help, just letting the water and spirit meld and volatiles escape helps make a much nicer drink
Jesse - I'd be interested in seeing an experiment where you preload with chips in a gin basket. A little higher temperature, and little higher ABV as compared to normal barrel proof. Cheers!
one of my favrotes is to douable oak i use fresh staves for 20m days then anouther fresh set for 30 days then remove all wood for the rest of the time and let them meld toughter for 6 months + after takeing the wood out but if you get intoi them early they can be quite strong and fairly offencive to taste but others may like them as i prefer a rather melow drink in compairsion to others
The Science would say it can be done, but with a bit of time to let it Mellow, because of the Harsh extremes it took to force the flavours out, needs time to yer mellow, because microwaves boil water and the water has penertrated the wood and water heats up fast under microwave so the wood will too and expel the flavour / Sap of the wood and the wood fibre flavours / or flavanoids for the geeks or people who think I don't know sqaut, anyway, like Jessy says it's hard to go back in time to fix things that have gone to far, So Slow and Steady in the nuker over, and still needs time to meld, mellow combine molecularly synced 👍🏻🇦🇺🥃
Love thinking of ideas on how to pull some more of the flavors from the aging process sooner...some of the stuff I experimented with was similar but did the preload on my first run and then redistilled it...2nd and third run which seemed to prime it for the aging process.
Dude. The interaction with wifey is a really good addition. Love it
very cool episode. Some on-screen labels would help a LOT during the tastings. I can't always keep track of which is which. Good stuff!
Inerstin! I've done similar with the hot/cold cycles using the microwave oven. Microwave to about 150 dF, cool to room temp, into the freezer for 3 or 4 hours, back to room temp, aerate by vigorously shaking, and begin the process again.
I'm near 72 yo and don't feel particularly confident waiting 2 or 3 years for a run of likker to age. There's a chance it could outlive me.
Fair enough man, I dont want to wait 2-3 years either!
So do I... being a bit younger, though ☝🏽
That feeling when the Jesse's significant other sed: "my dear, our MWO is suddenly outta operation" 😉
Buy some already aged. It's cheaper.
I’m just 70 now and if start feeling the urge I just break into the Pappy for a taste.VBG
:) 🥂 Yes, it is true. In fact at the start of my experiments I use oak wood, but now I drink as it is. Good taste is after 1/2 of year in the jar with wood. Better is after 1 year - good quality drink. I agree with Jesse about wood taste after 1 month in ordinary aging process and I think "white" is better for all who make small amounts of spirits. For mega distillers it is different of course. Cheers! 🥃 P.S. Maybe... we can prepare wood alone - it means we can try to "marinate the wood". It is like that - take wood and sprinkle with water and le it "ferment" themselves. Than when we start to smell "whiskey flavor" of the wood we add it in the spirits. Why I say so? Because we in our property chuck oak wood which was laying long time under the rain... and wood ferment themselves and when we chop this peace of wood we smell Whiskey!!!
Great discussion. My takeaway is more wood and the hot cold cycling. In my limited experience and even sketchier test processes, staves need more time in the hot/cold cyces than the chips (which I attribute to surface area) . I use Sous Vide 45 minute cycles hot bath /.ice cycles to good effect (to me) for chips. I tried the same with staves (but different whiskey) and I thought it came up a bit short. This pretty much confirmed to me that the cycles do something special.
Getting "preloaded" before going to the bar! 🤣
Nothing wrong with a pregame
Same here in the UK
You mean having a few cheeky once in the shed before . . . .. . .
Absolutely right! Cheers 🍻
Awesome experiment. It is exactly what I have been doing for years. Over saturate for a little bit and then remove the wood and let it age with only 1 very small stave. Best I have got was 2 years old and that stuff was very tasty.
Good to know im not alone on this haha
I've got good feel about it too, How long do you go for over saturated period in start?!
I had a friend build me a barrel by hand in his wood ship. He is chasing the wood craft as I am chasing the distilling craft. Dropping an all grain cut to 125 proof (1.5 gallon) and we will try it when he gets back from Florida in 6 months. While we wait I will try to force age a bit on the side to compare. Great video!
I've been doing a similar experiment here in Arizona. I am a bartender and wanted to make an oak tincture. I put wood chips of varying char level and grain alcohol and mason jar and put it in my shed outdoors to meet the heat and weather. It has been almost a year and it is going through its first Arizona summer. I have yet to try it so I'm excited to see how it comes out. The color is dark, dark, like black dark.
Nice man. I would be giving it a taste every now and then to make sure it dosnt turn into a tannic mess. Good luck 👍
sounds interesting. look forward to results ... somewhere somehow
I'll tag Still It on instagram when the year is up, that should be sometime in October.
Good stuff. No harm in trying stuff. Scotch malt is very complex, that's why it's made here only but I love the attempts you've done and your enthusiasm.
Maybe try 2+3 together
thank you thank you thank you !!! I am in my second distillation of all grains and I have a thousand questions ... but I am not going to ask anything I am just going to thank you again ... this hobby is so exasperating as exciting! thanks again !
I love that you bring her in cause it gives us two different perspectives
Watching this after watching your lengthy podcast interview with the Kentucky cooper was very informative. I came away from that interview thinking that aging with a variety of chips with a combination or charred, light, and medium toast could lead to accelerated and more balanced aging.
I recommend that podcast to all home distillers. It is long but absolutely packed with meaningful information from a truly authoritative source.
I've done nearly the same process the last few batches I've made. Over oak the crap out of it for 3 weeks, placed mine in a heating duct farthest from the furnace over night and in the refrigerator during the day several times during that time. Pull the oak save for a small piece of heavily charred oak and store untill ready to drink.
Pretty sure it was you that gave me the idea to do this from a previous video.
so had a buddy doing certain things on a stovetop....im glad you didnt show it considering i have seen a fireproof door shoved halfway thru a ceiling because my buddy almost killed us, it was open..... if it had been closed I think we wouldn't have survived
Always nice to see Mrs. Still-it. Every time time you have a family member on your channel they steal the show
Just a thought, chips seem more rapid and intense, warming seems to add smooth esthers, preloading helped the caramelising from the oak... How about trying the preload and the warm/cold cycles and check the results?
Dude! Great video, this is essentially what I've been doing.
I start with 2 liters clear spirit, then make up a bundle with 75 grams toasted/lightly charred chips and drop that in. At the same time I put in 3 2x2x15 centimeter charred staves. I tend to dark char just one side of those. I leave the chips for one week, then pull them and leave the staves for up to 4 months. (Whenever I think about I move the jar from a warm room to a cool room in the basement)
Then pull the staves and let the product rest for at least a week.
This seems to make a decent imitation of a bourbon. Folks seem to enjoy it quite a lot.
On another note, a Crockpot work great for a water bath.
Revisited this a year later. What I do is temp cycle with staves, but slower, I get it to 60c in a bath in a slowcooker on high for a couple hours, then on warm for 6 - 8 hours find it around 45c, then room temp for 24h, burp, shake then fridge for 24h, burp, room temp, burp and back to heat... 6 - 8 times like that, then let it sit for 3 months with an occasional burp and shake. I think it works pretty well and seems to give an effect that is not quite equivalent to years, but is more than just tea bagged for sure.
Humm.
Maybe try hot/cold cycles, but less extreme and more of them. And introducing oxygen by opening jars a few times. Thus simulating Texas weather and the interaction of the spirit with the outside air thru the wood as it would in life size barrels.
Jesse, you said you needed a Bain-Marie. You could actually use your large brew kettle with the Grain basket and your inkbird. Done that before using a small 1k element to heat up like 10lt of water and keep it at a specific temp. Works like a champ.
22:50 I'd like to know what the hot/cold cycle does to the white (un-oaked) spirit. Does the "esterification" happen to the spirit without the presence of oak. BTW, having wifey there to call BS on your tasting notes was pure gold. I'd like to see more of that. 🤣
Neat experiment, I've tried to do something similar to fermented but uncarbonated strong beer, like strong Scotch ale and Barleywine.
The hot and cold cycle only works with time and wood bRrels, never glass.
I have preloaded super clear product via sous vide then used essences results is brilliant
I occasionally nuke in the microwave for 3mins then sit in the fridge overnight and then let it sit back at room temperature before bottling.. taste is fuller and not peppery.
Great experiment you did.
Cool video.
Interesting.
If I’ve learned one thing over the course of time…
It’s relatively easy to make something look “aged”…
It’s virtually impossible to make something young taste aged.
But that doesn’t mean you can’t keep trying.😊👍🥃
Yup, agreed! colour is easy. Taste & mouthfeel is something else entirely. Thats why this is kinda intreeging to me. I think I did a bad job of explaining in the video. But the point is not to do this just for a month. But to do this before ageing for say a year. Hoping to get a jump start on that.
@@StillIt
Absolutely… I’ve got a corn and a rye whiskey headed on 2 years old.
The nose is phenomenal… the taste is still a little bit too much alcohol.
But it gets better every time I sample it.
I jarred and Oaked it at 110 proof which probably contributes to the heavy alcohol taste.
But I’m looking forward to seeing how it develops.
You did fine explaining it…
It’s really just doing it yourself and WAITING.🤣🤣🤣… and waiting.
Good stuff.🥃👍
Great video!! ---->I think every chemistry guy will tell you: you should organize a protocol, answering precise questions, maybe 1 at the time. (As you have acknoledge) BUT, I enjoyed very much the video, is is spontaneous and fun, very good the idea of others tasting the prod beside you. You inspired me!!!! LOL
Right on, great tests dude. I've been messing with hot/cold cycling for a while and think that the biggest changes are related to pressure (positive and negative pressure) within the glass jars and not so much related to temperature, although I think temp change plays another role with the wood. By taking sealed jars of cold liquid out of the freezer and warming them up creates positive pressure in the jar and drives the alcohol deeper into the wood pores like time in a barrel. Then putting the hot liquid into the freezer creates a negative pressure within the jar and I think that pulls alcohol deep from within the wood simulating time in a barrel. I haven't played with a vacuum yet but think it may create similar results. Note that I open the jars to equalize the pressure before each high/low cycle so I get the highest possible passive pressure change.
Get yourself a vacuum chamber, I highly recommend. Pressure pot on the other hand, you can pass. It is super interesting to play with pressure using temperature and the adverse from nature (ie. Vacuum in cold pressure in hot) cheers!
Have you tried aging in a vacuum environment. Similar to how meats can be marinated almost instantly by being put in a tumbling vacuum barrel and then afterwards quickly releasing the vacuum? Vacuum pulls out of the wood. Then quick release abruptly forces liquids into the wood. Then letting it sit for 2-4 weeks.
I'm not making my own spirits at this point but thoroughly enjoy your content, Jesse. I think it's great how you continue to try so many different things. You're doing great and you have an awesome attitude. Thanks for everything so far Jesse!
UV and vacuum+pressure seems to be big on forums too and would be good to check.
As always love your work.
Hi. I don't know where else to put this, so I am going to chuck it out here. I used to work for a government engineering section many years ago, so cannot talk about specifics, however. "At work one day" we were playing with liquids under pressure and their effects on something else. Why I am putting this here is the smell of the liquids would change significantly when pressurised, especially if the liquids were raised in temperature. And if my memory serves me well? The higher the temperature and pressure, the more the smell would change favourably. I do remember thinking it went from the worse smelling environment to the best smelling. We're talking industrial paint, acid smell to tropical Sea air and cakes. Has this been tried on spirit?
Interesting man. Was this pressurising the liquid, releasing pressure then smelling it? Or were you under pressure with the liquid?
I have seen people using pressurised vessels to force age in. Ambient pressure has long been talked about in terms of forcing whiskey into and out of the barrel, gaining more interaction with the oak.
I think this sounds like something slightly different though. Interesting.
@@StillIt the smell was not the goal. It was a very pleasant byproduct when preasure was released. It did not smell good before. I used to gag with some of the concoctions. They where preasurised for long periods at 15700 psi.
when im doing liqueurs with fruit like blueberrys and cranberry, I add the fruit and alcohol to a large jar, heat it in a water bath till its about at boiling. then put an airtight lid on it.
this gets all the air out the jar. The gas thats left behind is alcohol vapour. so when it cools the presure in the jar drops. then cycle the jar from a few days on a hot radiator to a few days in the frezer. and then repeat several times. it ages it a year in a few weeks.
the low presure realy seems to help the ageing process. driving the alcohol into the fruit and pulling the flavour out.
it may be worth a try with your whisky.
Awesome video . All I ever wondered about but was afraid to ask, haha. Great research and experimentation and notes
Hello. Have you ever experimented with BBQ/smoker wood chips like hickory, maple, alder, cherry. apple wood chips etc as an alternative ageing wood and how their flavour profiles are VS the traditional oak chips?
Another great vid. I have been trying staves in jars with summer heat and ac. So 72f to 105 f. Some were great some were astringent and so reduced the proof and amount of wood to just one small piece of oak charred to near charcoal. Hoping for sugars and some filtering to occur. Set in basement at 60 f for 6 mo now and counting. Got some bitterness out and some funk in a few jars. Fun process experimenting
I was throwing some more wood into my potbelly in he shed one day and thought i wonder what it would taste like if i put some Australian Redgum in one of my jars and let it age, Now its all i do. Love the flavour and i feel its unique to my tatse.
Been curious on what Redgum and Jarrah could add.
Seems you agree lol.
This was one of my favorite episodes! Thank you
Hello, have you thought about using a vacuum to suck the air out of the wood so it draws it into the wood when released.
Also I had an idea for a vid, could you do sugar washes but using different types of sugar, same volumes liquid, same yeast, same weight of sugar.
Thanks 👍🏻
If you crack the lid of the jar then reseal after heating you release the pressure created, it pulls a vacuum as it cools to room temperature. The vacuum increases when goes in the freezer. If you crack the lid when it comes out of the freezer then reseal,air entering the jar will be chilled and when it returns to room temperature it will pressurize the jar even before it is heated.
You are going to love a vacuum chamber! I have been having a blast pulling unique flavors through this process.
@@AgeWhiskey - And a true vacuum chamber isn't necessary either. Many of the common "food save" type appliances have a mason jar attachment. Super easy.
@@andyh7537 really? This is the first I have heard of this. I thought you use heat the create the vacuum. Do you have a link? I wonder how high it can get the pressure?
You can make the vacum sealant diy. Make small hole, put a tape on the hole and the hole part put another tape on the glue. And suck the air out using vacuum sealer.
I had an interesting thought while watching this video. What if you put the jar in a vacuum chamber? It will force pull the air and water/sap/flavor out of the oak. It may give an interesting affect... just a thought. Keep up the awesome work! I love the channel!
Hi Jesse did a whiskey grain wash and when put onto still it spurge and went out of control had to turn still of.What am I doing wrong ?Keep up the great work love watching your videos, Cheers 🥃
Hi Jessie. I've read from a few folks on the home distiller forum that you can deliberately over-oak a whiskey, pull all of the wood out, and somehow the spirit will keep aging? Supposedly, the bits the whiskey pulled out of the wood are in solution but haven't transformed the spirit yet, and as long as you leave it with some headspace, it will continue doing a bit of what wood does on its own. I'm not sure if that's just oxidation from headspace, or only applicable to freshly distilled spirits that sorta mellow out even without wood over the first year or two. . . I've also heard from some folks that they left their over-oaked product on wood without removing any, and eventually it sorta self corrected after nearly a year or two. . . What do you reckon about these strange reports? The common curiosity here is that these spirits had the same amount of wood throughout and time was what carried it to a supposedly good result.
There is an established relationship between reaction rate and temperature. Generally people use a variation on the Arrhenius equation and the rule of thumb derived from that is every 10°C (18° Freedom units) increase in temperature doubles the reaction rate. So the during the high temp cycles reactions were happening ~8-9 times faster. I think that could outweigh the cycling effect with the oak. If you just kept it at high temp for the same amount of time you might end up with something similar to the cycling experiment. - a geochemist.
This is actually something I had been thinking about. Nice to hear it from someone that knows their stuff.
The idea with changing temps is it changes pressure pushing alcohol into and out of the wood. Intuition seems to tell me that's slightly different with the wood and alcohol being inside a closed system. (As apposed to a barrel where the wood is the barrier). Thoughts?
Although, it really dose seem to jump in color after a cold cycle.
@@StillIt I think with the wood basically being immersed that pressure variation isn't going to do much. There isn't really a pressure gradient to force flow, especially with chips that are going to be fully saturated. Even the staves are going to have exposed end grain. The main mode of exchange would be diffusion, which would also increase with temp.
Cold temperature might effect the oils...? That's getting into an area where your guess is as good as mine. I don't do petroleum geochem.
@@peterberger2723 speaking from experience, I agree with Peter. Pressure cycling is not as effective as I hoped it would be.
I also love to make apple pie with apple brandy. But the twist is I let it age for two years after cooking the cider, juice and spices with brown sugar and then after it sits in the shed for two yrs through cold winters and hot summers I rack it off the sediment and it’s an apple juice colored liquor that’s clear and very smooth and tasty. The age makes a huge dif
Very cool experiment Jesse. I do have an idea you might want to try if you are interested. I was watching Popcorn Sutton's "the last one" and I notcied that he was mashing in with a charred white oak barrel. Have you ever thought about throwing in some heavy toasted oak cubes into your mash during the fermentation process?
Interesting. With regards to forced aging, my mind always immediately jumps to ultrasonic baths / solutions to achieve it. Essentially, just dropping an ultrasonic element into the alcohol and wood container and letting it rip. I would love to see how that compares to the warm/cold method.
Its a coming ;)
Fortunately the company I work for is buying a big ultrasonic unit which I intend to try out aging with
i have a ultrasonic cleaner do you think that would work?
@@imaflyinturkey9775 Of course. I don't know what degree it'll work to, but any amount of ultrasonic application will speed up the process.
I have been using a sous vide for a coupe years now to age my shine and fruit juice mixtures, I got better and more vibrant flavors at 3 hours at 130 degrees than I get from the natural age of 1 month of sitting on the shelf. Ultimately seems to peek at 1 week after the sous vide treatment for best flavour
In the old days, a ship write would steam the wood to soften it up so it could be bent into shape. Maybe this process can be applied in this instance? Steaming the wood opens up the pours in the wood and if it's placed into the alcohol in that state, it could speed up the enzyme extraction process. Also, using smaller branches in this fashion would help too because it would take less time.
Love the look into the science of this craft
Great content
I have no idea what chemical reactions happen during aging (too far outside my field of expertise) - but I think it's fair to say that a rule of thumb for any chemical reaction is that it will speed up with higher temperature, usually by quite a lot.
So my naive logic is that a solution might simply be to DIY a hot-box out of something insulated like a portable cooler with a temperature controller and a small heater element. Then just store it at the highest temperature that is practical (ie. definitely well below the boiling temperature at least), and that should "speed up time" significantly in terms of any chemical interactions.
If you insulate the bejeezus out of the hotbox (a little mylar and some old blankets would go a long way) then the heat-loss (and thus electricity cost to run continously) should be very low. Probably wise to store a device like this in a relatively fire-proof area just in case something should malfunction. Safety first :)
Good video,love using wife's taste buds,I have tried about five oaks,different amounts, different roast,what I have found with my tasters,they all agree roasted French oak is too strong, oily taste,so far,in my rookie opinion the Jack Daniel's barrel chips create a nice color and taste,I put 2 Oz per quart,I dry them out with no roast,actually put them in right out of the oven,so they rehydrate in the spirit, then leave in until the color,no time involved, Like a dark honey,great stuff you pack in my old ass brain!
What about bubbling a bit of ozone through the spirit for a short while to oxidize some of the chemicals to change. Simulating the oxygen, wood, spirit cross section of the barrel?
Oooo, I like this idea!
Hi Mate, So perhaps 2 Liters sitting on a heat pad for a month - Compared to 2L sitting on the bench would make for a great comparison?
great approach, sir, as always.
love the analytical method you tackle these questions with.
Hey, it would be great if you could overlay what the glasses are during the tastings ... when I have to stop and start watching tasting vids like this I get lost as to which is which! Great video and super informative otherwise, thank you!
If you regularly go fishing in an boat, take the cask with you as a fishing buddy..it will speed up the process and infuse a traditional nautical flavour ….it will also encourage you to do more fishing trips
11:12 omg, timelapse of colour evolution would have been amazing. Great idea for next time!
Yeah that was a missed opportunity
I also have been messing around with Gin. Very similar to what you did with the hopped Gin using botanicals and citrus suspended over the spirit BUT, using the knowledge from Bearded about sun aging. A few days in the sun and chilling over each night has worked great.
I've just started a supercharging experiment with oxygenation at the centre of it - basically I'm playing with a batch of nicely oaked (whisky style) product - which already has a tasty little smoke, biscuit, caramel and vanilla thing going on. It was a blend of product coming from mixing two products - one from a sugar wash and the other from an all grain mash (which was about 50% peated malted grain). The second gave me a whisky that was a bit too smokey - so that's why I tamed it down with the white dog. I've got an aquarium pump running air through it now via some fine bubble aeration stones. I've kept a small sample aside as a benchmark for comparison later - so I think I'll run the thing for a week and compare back to the sample of base product. Who am I kidding? - I'll likely be testing it every day - but I'll do a more formal test after a week. When I started hearing of folks supercharging the 'transformation' process, post oak - I thought - that would be inaccessible because I can't get my hands on - or want to pay for - oxygen. But then it struck me, our air has about 21% oxygen in it already - so here we go, it's worth a shot. I'll share the results and let you know if and how much it helped. I'll also run this with 43% ABV at start - and see if the aeration process might give too much share to the Whisky fairy.
Love your work bro!
Any chance of doing a video comparing distillations with and without anti foaming agents?
Hey Jesse, if you are wanting to do a sous vide system just use the temp prob that you use for your temp control chamber on the T500 boiler have done this to do a tomahawk steak works great :) I also use this setup for my janky HLT for my dive into all grain
I did an experiment with a sous vide machine in and out at 65°C (around boiling point of methanol but under ethanol) over about six weeks. Turned out better than several US craft bourbons we tasted it against. Maybe not a fair comparison since it was a rye base, but it was purchased commercial unaged spirit stuff and only 50% abv, which isn't optimal as it pulls out more water soluble stuff from the wood.
I incorporated a platinum wire catalyst and some UV light blasting too.
I didn't take great timeline notes, but I noticed it went ok, ok, smells great but ok, smells great tastes ok, smells great tastes pretty good, smells great tastes off. But was recoverable by adding some untreated and re-processing.
So interesting! Tell me more about the platinum wire catalyst. Why and how?
@@AgeWhiskey My thinking is that it could help accelerate any chemical reactions.
What I want to test next is a mix of a heavily heat-oaked and UV, and maybe oxygen exposed sample with a completely new make sample (ratio uncertain at this time), remove the oak then heat and agitate that with the catalyst.
I was just thinking about the big barrels the major distillers use. I don't think that age is just a continuous or more extraction of wood stuff. I think it's a combination of drawing a set amount of chemicals from the wood into the spirit immediately in contact with the wood, and those chemicals slowly diffuse into the much larger volume of spirit in the middle and slowly chemically react.
The platinum is just supposed to help speed up whatever chemistry/magic may or may not happen. Not super scientific. I used an extremely fine but fairly long wire I just put in the jar. Decent surface area without too much material because platinum wire is freaking expensive.
Do you know how big volume the long-term aged casks that the big distillers use? I think we as hobbyists are going a bit in the wrong direction thinking that more wood surface area equals "faster" aging. I want to try with a fairly wood-concentrated amount combined with new make and try to accelerate any chemistry between them. A rough barrel volume could help me get a surface area: volume ratio to start with for oaked:new make.
@@dimman77 I do. The large barrels are 53 gallons. I broke down some surface area calculations in this video
ruclips.net/video/qVvA66gRRjY/видео.html
Check the description for a link to the project document with all the detailed equations.
@@AgeWhiskey Awesome. Thanks!
@@AgeWhiskey RUclips doesn't seem to let me post on your chanel.
US3787587A is what you're looking for.
Age wine with chips, dry chips, put in for aging to "finish" it. It gives it the fancy shmancy "sherry cask finish" look :)
Quarter cup worth for the little jar.
I have a larch tree in my garden that I used. I know it is soft wood but when I roasted and charred it and put it into vodka, it really gets a whiskey flavor. Any advice? I know it’s a soft wood but tastes great
I can across a RUclips site that used 2 year old oak staves. The process is. Use 100g of wood to a 1000ml 60% spirit. Put wood into jar and pour boiling water in. Leave for 12 hours. After 12 hours dry on tray for 12 hours. After 12 hours cook wood in oven @ 150 for 1 hour. Then grill for 20 mins @ same temp. Then put wood into jar with spirit for 10 days. At end pour spirit into bottle add 1 teaspoon of raw sugar. I have used Rata staves instead of oak. After 8 days the spirit is a nice golden colour and tastes great
The other mechanism that seems plausible for the preload-and-remove case is that different flavor compounds can have different dissolution rates out of the wood, so the stuff you are primarily pulling out for the first week can be a different ratio than the stuff you'll pull out over a month. That mechanism dominates coffee extraction (a couple minutes extra and you're pulling a lot of bitter), but I wouldn't rule it out for wood extraction on these timescales.
Of course, it's probably both.
Actually, what might be really interesting is to load up the whiskey with fresh oak to start with, to get something to work with, and then switch to thoroughly used oak to provide somewhere for the reactions to take place.
I found this really interesting... unfortunately I drink too much of my moonshine to allow me to test this... the thing that my whiskey is missing and I want to find a way to replicate is the peat smoke of good scotch/Irish whiskey? I have started messing with peat some essences? Just 1ml per litre at this stage but I’m going to up that? But I would rather a way of emulating this factor without essences...
I aged with medium toasted oak chips for 2 weeks and then put in a charred barrel for the remaining aging process and it turned out beautifully
one thing came to my mind when you "shaved" down one of the chunks: in a barrel, first (& most?) contact is with the charred side, so more or less all substances "seep" through that layer. Using staves, there's a lot of raw surface (and you reduced the charred surface even more when cutting down the edges...) if not burnt completely...
Great stuff, valuable information and insights
I know from my own experiences with jack Daniels oak chips that I toasted very unscientifically with a torch, and apple brandy that was 65% when the chips were added I got a lot of tannin but it brought out loads of sweetness on the nose and lots of fire and pepper on the back end of the taste. I also may have over done it with the wood chips and I forgot about it for over 6 months. But when blended back with the original white dog it was pretty smooth. Nothing scientific or exact in my experiment. Wish I had a barrel for aging. Cheers
Now you just poke the bear...I have been thinking of doing a test like this but with 96 abv alcohol and a totally different wood profile. I don't have any white oak, but many different local trees used in wine industry. I'm going to try different ABVs, toast levels, and wood amounts. I'll let you know by patreons how that goes. Thank as usual...interesting experiments!
Interesting . . . . let us know how it goes.
I second that. I'd love to know the results!
Have you tried using a vacuum chamber and cycles of vacuum to pull flavours out.
I have not. Could be something to think about !
I went on eBay here in the US and found red wine barrel oak chips under smoker/BBQ. Figure they might work as a "finish" oaking. Kind of like Scotch that has a sherry finish
Would it be worthwhile buying a heated ultrasonic cleaner to agitate the wood while heating it to draw the flavour of the wood out? Can set the heat and timer for 'x' amount of time for the agitation? 🤔🤔
Dave @AgeWhiskey does a great job in that field with a lot of interesting outcome
Jesse I know you don't use wood chips a lot... But when you do, or when you did in this video how do you pretreat them?
Would you consider tasting a commercial product we can get and taste along with you? This would help make some of your comments like "dusty" clearer to us. Thanks
Like a commercial calibration type thing? Yeah that could be fun for sure.
Aging is like making chili. You can get really fancy and professional but the one thing you can't replicate is time.
Edit I am ready interested in the process though.
Sorry second edit.... Would adding shaved oak into the mix during the distilling process change the flavor? I live in America and don't have a license to distill. So I'm living vicariously through your channel lol.
I noticed that you tend to use a uniform oak stick every time. Have you experimented with the shape or used different woods?
There's a professional company that found the way to force age their whiskey, they win competitions for 10-year whiskey that took them a week to make
would burning oak an collecting the smoke and letting in condense in a jar create an ingredient that could help with this process, also do you think "tea baging" in a pressure cooker help maybe with the water that is used for watering down to 40%?
That's a neat test. It's interesting that the #1 jars were both more tannic. Didn't expect that at all.
I curious to know, if you put the charred oak in your still or in a thumper of the flavors would transfer into the clear spirit. Mabe an idea for another video.
Not so sure about having the oak in the vapour path. I could try that for sure. I think a lot of the wood flavours are big heavy molecues ( I could be wrong there). But I did put a vid out a while back re distilling a wood aged spirit. That was interesting. It definitly didnt taste like newmake!
@@StillIt I think they must be heavy, as they linger in a forgotten glass of whisky long after everything else has evaporated.
Great vid. Aging vs "Oaking" is always one of those controversial topics. You summed it up very well. Gave good credence to what actually time changes.
There was a guy in the sixties who supposedly had a whiskey aging machine. I saw it on some old show in black and white.
There are a bunch of them out there in the commercial world now. Podcast coming soon . . . .
Hey Jesse,worked my way through the BB's Rum thread and there was a point where you pulled out 2 liters 3 times to mix and match some follow up procedure. One sample was to be refluxed for a set period and then run through a pot still to see if that process did in fact kick up/impact esters etc. I was very interested in this and couldn't find where you actually followed through, Did you actually do this experiment and if so what was the result? I realize this is off topic but I figured my best bet at catching your eye was on the latest thread. Thanks for any insight.
I look forward to seeing how these experiments pan out over the course of a year or more. It's fair that the heat cycling and initial loading of oak will cause an increase in flavor over the short term.
My experimentation so far has shown that less oak over time will yield a better final product. More complex, fruity, and caramel notes seem to show up that way.
I did a bad job of explaining. The point was not for this to be a one and done method over a month. More a launch pad for a longer aging, as you say perhaps a year.
K
It has nothing to do with more or less oak. It's all in the level of toast of the oak. The more toast, the richer the finish and color.
@Still It Love the experiments! Where can you get one of those awesome UFO in a bottle shirts?
Cheers mate. Into the AM man:
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I am a master distiller with 8 Shires Coloniale Distillery, Williamsburg, VA. I have my own lab where I have about 100 experiments with aging of all kinds. The more toast on the wood, the richer the color and better the flavors. It's not surface area. Never was. The deeper the toast into the wood, the better. But all we are talking about at the moment is making a wood extract. There is no such thing as speed aging. What goes on inside of a barrel requires constant but minimal air exchange. What is going on that creates the true magic is floral esters no different than what flowers produce. That can not be replicated in a jar nor can you speed up the process.
Speed aging has been tried by all the large distilleries and all have abandoned the idea. You can't replicate the floral esters any faster. Proof I'd also a major factor in aging. You want to be between 110 proof and 125 proof. What happens if you try a higher proof of say 150? Nasty green tone tastes and much higher angles share.
My lab I only test various woods to see what the flavor profiles bring. I mix oak with cherry wood or apple wood or both cheery and apple. That is all I play with. I still age an average of 4 years minimum.
I toast my own wood for consistency. This is easily done in a toaster oven.
What temps and times do you toast your woof for? I've found 425*F for 90 minutes is a great starting point before applying a #3 char
Thanks for posting. IMO, you can speed up aging somewhat by using smaller barrels. But yeah, your point is well taken. There is no instant or super-quick aging.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Always nice hearing from those doing this for a living.
@@mikewilson9315 Hey Mike. We have also used smaller barrels. 5 gallon size. You can produce very decent results in a shorter period of time, but you still do not get the rich complexity of esters as you do from longer aging in larger barrels.
We do use some smaller barrels for special releases where our objective is to duplicate ancient flavors. This is usually done side by side with larger less expensive releases produced in similar fashion. Smaller isn't better though I don't knock it that hard.
@@thisguy5254 Hello this guy. I never char my wood. I toast for about 20 minutes. That is usually deep enough. About 410 to 425 degrees. Char does not add to flavor. Never did. Char is only a filter mechanism. Nothing more. I use small wood shavings.
Iv always had the Idea of putting my new spirit in a small barrel and put the barrel into a vacuum chamber to simulate the change's in pressure that make the spirit pull into and out of the oak
Have yolu by chance tried Sous Vide for forced nuke aging back and forth between freezer and sous vide to see if it makes a difference? Also I have tried expiermenting with the wood chunks and wood smoking chip sized to see the differences as well. I feel like the wood chips are much easier to toast up and force age pre load in about a week
we always hear that whiskey does not age in the bottle, so once you remove all the wood, does esterification stop? or is there enough stuff in there to continue to age your young spirit?
Yeah this is a interesting one I have thought about a lot as well. I think you are right that in young spirit there is probably some chemical changes left to happen. Especially on short scale times that we are talking (1- 12 months "aging" and a few months in the bottle). As apposed to years in the barrel and years in the bottle.
The short answer is Im really not sure. But my gut instinct is to agree.
I've heard even vodka makers 'age' their spirit somewhat, letting it sit for a few weeks. In my experience, those few weeks can help, just letting the water and spirit meld and volatiles escape helps make a much nicer drink
Jesse - I'd be interested in seeing an experiment where you preload with chips in a gin basket. A little higher temperature, and little higher ABV as compared to normal barrel proof. Cheers!
Great job on this experiment.
beautiful video, I look forward to the podcast, wood is a very interesting topic
The thought emporium did this with an ultrasonic bath and wood chips. It seemed to work well.
Yeah nice. Watch this space . . . . .
one of my favrotes is to douable oak i use fresh staves for 20m days then anouther fresh set for 30 days then remove all wood for the rest of the time and let them meld toughter for 6 months + after takeing the wood out but if you get intoi them early they can be quite strong and fairly offencive to taste but others may like them as i prefer a rather melow drink in compairsion to others
Thank you very much. How do you roast the wood to make the drinks and how long do you have to put the bowl in the hot water
Man I love you're content.Keep it up man
The Science would say it can be done, but with a bit of time to let it Mellow, because of the Harsh extremes it took to force the flavours out, needs time to yer mellow, because microwaves boil water and the water has penertrated the wood and water heats up fast under microwave so the wood will too and expel the flavour / Sap of the wood and the wood fibre flavours / or flavanoids for the geeks or people who think I don't know sqaut, anyway, like Jessy says it's hard to go back in time to fix things that have gone to far, So Slow and Steady in the nuker over, and still needs time to meld, mellow combine molecularly synced 👍🏻🇦🇺🥃
Love thinking of ideas on how to pull some more of the flavors from the aging process sooner...some of the stuff I experimented with was similar but did the preload on my first run and then redistilled it...2nd and third run which seemed to prime it for the aging process.
I saw a video using a jewelry cleaner (sonic) to 'age' various spirits with barrel chips, it looked like it worked surprisingly well.