Happy camper with Soracom SIMs as well.. worked everywhere and attractive pricing.. Also surprised by the cool services to do remote access or end to end traffic security
Encrypted communications through private networks that are not intercepted is still something worth having, regardless of how great you can put sensors onto phones and place in different places.
@@m1lespr0w3r But that goes through a network, where even the encrypted data is easier to get hold of. An off-internet network that is private is much harder to steal information from.
Well done. I'd given up trying to untangle the elements that you have explained so well here. You have also identified one of the most powerful assets in this IoT field - a friend inside the industry who a) knows the technology and b) is able to supply SIM cards at near zero cost. As you stated the incumbent 4/5G operators are only interested in volume users of their networks - not us small guys.
As someone working in cellular IoT, I think you did a very fair comparison. Maybe to add that NB-IoT has +20db coverage compared to LTE-M so it has better indoor penetration. This is at the cost of repetations hence increased latency and is also the reason why tcp based protocols such as mqtt are not the best choice. So indeed better to use coap. Also LTE-M is much more 2G like. It e.g. also supports voice (VoLTE) though most operators have not implemted that yet.
Sorry you are wrong. LTEM has just 6 dB sensitivity in comparison to NB-IoT. VoLTE is feature of LTEM, but it is not supported in all LTEM networks. The diverse in the supported features in different networks makes it complex. I consult IoT companies with global roll out. The SIM card of Andreas delivered by Crout is a multi IMSI with 4 IMSIs. I can help with up to 25 IMSIs. CoAP UDP or MQTT-SN on UDP is the way to go. A round trip time of 10 seconds with NB-IoT and LTE-M is possible. I test with my team 5G NTN (NB-IoT by satellite). 10 to 40 seconds round trip time!
Thanks for the video Andreas. Nice to see the familiar Nordic PPK2 graphs and also Walter - Daan and his team have been fantastic to work with and I am so happy that you've been able to feature them on your channel twice now 🙂. As for the CAT-1bis, I've also recently had the opportunity to work with an ESP32-S3 board from Makerfabs that uses the SIMCOM7670 . This seems to offer CAT1bis (10Mbps download, 5Mbps upload). What is super cool about this is that it just worked with any local SIM Card and that it can degrade to 2G/3G if that is all that is available. Yes, there are still places in the "wild west" where this is the case. I myself still have a working Nokla 1280 🙂
Thing to remember for Cat1bis is that it's not really an IoT technology. Cat1bis is a variation of LTE Cat1 introduced for wearable like smart watches. The difference between Cat1 and Cat1bis is the removal of the Rx diversity antenna. LTE mandates at least 2 antennas but in a small format factor device like a watch, to fit 2 antennas in would be a struggle and even if you could fit them in, the close proximity to each other means you do not get much diversity gain. So Cat 1 bis was introduced as an exception to the rule requiring LTE devices to have at least 2 antennas. By removing the second Rx chain from a Cat1bis enabled manufacturers to make a cheaper radio module and that was appealing for IoT applications. Of course removing the second antenna means your downlink radio performance budget is impacted.
@@SoundOfYourDestiny- If you mean the SIM Cards that just worked with LTE CAT-1bis, no, not US. Doesn't mean that it might not work in the US, just that that is not where I tested. If I remember correctly, the SIM7670 data sheet does not show the US as a supported region, but maybe it just hasn't been certified for use there yet.
A great video as always. You missed adding LoRaWAN by satellite, which you talked about some time ago. These connections avoid the problem of lack of coverage. Regarding 5G, I think perhaps the uses for IoT were the main reason for the war between the United States and Huawei, not only because of the higher speed and low latency in computers and mobile devices. 5G should be a great improvement over the previous, so it seemed that all the devices in the world would be connected thanks to 5G, in the trade war or accusations for security not only depended on Huawei routers, which were already available and much cheaper than American Cisco or Nokia ones, but also the security for the IoT that companies, institutions, and consumers were going to use massively.
Excellent video, as always. I was a little surprised you didn't mention the Particle Boron. Particle has been in the connected devices market for years. The Boron module uses Cat-M and comes already provisioned with their EtherSIM (or eSIM). The code libraries make development easy and fast. I got a temperature and humidity logger up and running in half a day, and it's been running for a year without problems. Yes, you must use the Particle cloud (like TTN) but it supports webhooks to access your data. I was very impressed with the Boron hardware and software and how Particle has made it easy to do IoT.
Nb-IoT NTN (non-terrestrial networks) is also very interesting, it uses Nb-Iot modules to communicate with satellites, which is probably the cheapest way to do it at the moment. This is quite new and was only introduced by 3GPP in release 17
@@AndreasSpiess I would have liked to have said cheaper compared to other satellite modems, which cost a few hundred dollars each. About providers, I know of Sateliot and Skylo, but I imagine there will be others soon. Skylo says something about starting at $6/month, but doesn't say how much data is included This is interesting as a fallback to nb-iot, if there's no cellular network available, it sends data via satellite
@@AndreasSpiess it wasn't easy, but I have just made an agreement with one supplier and now have a Dev kit and NTN SIM card in the post for a trial. I can let you know how it goes.
Another fantastic video with boatloads of Info! Love to meet you sometime face2face.... Two years ago, I migrated my 2G modems to a SIM7000 module - took a couple of weeks to make it all work...
@@maximus6884 Try buying a LoRa silicon not from Semtech? Developed by Cycleo and now owned by Semtech. The alliance actively goes after any fab making LoRaWan silicon not authorised by them... Doesn't sound very OS to me...
@@accik LoRaWAN is a proprietary LPWAN-connectivity protocol developed by Semtech (Originally Cycleo developed it and secured the patent, was them acquired by Semtech).
20:30 I just want to stress that the 'in development' nature of cellular IoT is probably a negative for any serious project you might be considering. I personally don't want to stop getting sensor updates 3 years from now, call up my provider to ask what's going on, and hear "Oh wow, you have one of _those_ old modules? What a blast from the past! So yeah anyway we dropped official support for that old protocol version 6 months ago", and then need to go and replace everything I've deployed. Be sure to judge how reliable you expect your cellular provider to be long term.
thank you for all the details. I'm from Belgium and I'm glad to learn about Walter. I've always wondered about a cellular application in the (international) tracking of a large fleet of bicycles for rent, where the users have a low cost option to leave it behind somewhere for someone else to use. Currently the limitation is that it is a subscription based service where you always need to leave the bike where you took it within the same country. If you commute to work with such a bike, the time at work is charged as the rental period, and no-one else can make use of the bike parked there.
You are always welcome to come and drink a cup of coffee with Walter in our office at the coast in Knokke-heist :) Roaming (to have coverage in multiple countries with the same SIM) is very reliable and one of the big advantages of cellular IoT.
Mr Andreas, I use 1NCE, give a check. They have cheap 10-year sim cards for IoT and as far as I understood also available CatM1 and NBIot, if available on the local MNO.
+1 for 1NCE. We've switched to them from another provider after we hit a bump and started searching for bugs in our hw, code and even the modem's firmware, logging cell registration, etc.The previous provider tried to help to some extent though (we had the sense that they were in the blind apart their very onw APN) by suggesting necessary specific modem fuctionality. We have tens of remote devices across a few countries, but sometimes all, other times just one country's network would drop them after 1-2 months and most won't try to reconnect. This made us rethink the LoraWAN idea again, but 1NCE is doing something differently and saved us a lot of headaches.
Funny, we did an LTE-M project 7 years ago, never took off and died 5 years ago, also due to the lack of affordable SIM cards (which seems to have changed in the meantime). It's a bit weird to call it an upcoming technology since a lot of (mostly utility) companies stopped using it already to due unfulfilled promises of benefits. LTE-M is really only usable with eDRX and UDP based (like you said CoAP) protocols like LwM2M in eDRX/queue mode to work efficiently, which is really hard to implement properly and requires careful consideration on the application side and a boatload of tweaking. Anything else will burn through your data (read: cash) and/or power budget way too quickly to be viable (both commercially and for hobby use). In contrast to LoraWAN where you "only" pay for the actual payload that is a huge difference and implementation burden.
I agree with your statements. This is why I think both technologies will have their places. But I also think, that some of the current M2M problems will be solved over time. It is still a new technology if you measure in "Telco time"...
IoT sim cards for LTEM are often LTE sim cards without support of eDRX and PSM. As soon the LTE network will use 3GPP Release 14 instead of Release 13, they will stop to work. This was happen in UK in October 2023. Andreas got from Crout multi IMSI UICC with 4 IMSI and 3GPP Release 14 plus roaming contracts for NB-IoT and LTEM. His Walter PCB will work in nearly any network on this nice blue planet.
Great video! Would love to see a comparison of indoor penetration of LoRAWAN vs NB-IoT. This is one area where there is a lot of debate at my company (deploying IoT projects). I have found some studies, but nothing really conclusive and a lot of marketing bullshit sadly. Especially some practical tests would be nice, since there is so much going on (repeat transmission in NB-IoT, ADR/SF for LoRa, different max allowed power, chirp spectrum, distance to gateway/cell tower, etc.)
We have done extensive testing in Belgium at 200 locations with Walter. Both with LTE-M and NB-IoT. We have done the same in the past with LoRa(WAN). I can say that NB-IoT has the best range (we could communicate through a metal lid from two stories underground). The difficulty in making a true comparison is that we do not have control over the base station in case of cellular. Maybe we should lock Walter to a certain antenna and do a range test and do the same with a LoRa transceiver. I'm open to suggestions.
Great informative video. Thank you. Finally learned why the power consumption is greater on IoT "sims". In my country you need to be a professional to get have IoT sims. LoRaWAN is a one way solution. Even with professional access, the sims are expensive. LoRaWAN is free.
Thanks Andreas for all your efforts. I follow you from years (you got me into Lora since then and now it's exploding). You say we need filters if near a cellular tower but which one? The usual SAW filters has 2-3 dB insertion loss that is high for a 22dBm node (BTW most of those filters has a max power handling of 18-20dBm). Cavity filters are outrageously expensive...and rare
Great video!! The issue I have found with the NBIoT is getting the battery to last. It would be absolutely fantastic if it was possible to deploy sensors and they actually lasted for 5years. Also considering the self discharge from the batteries etc. Could you make a video of that? A complete example solution for deployment that actually last 5years? -Choosing hardware (cost effective) -choosing sensor and communication (example 1-20mA?) -Complete Arduino code that use deepsleep and optimizes the communication for power consumption. -choosing battery -tip and trix
Interesting stuff. Cellular is everywhere, but the cellular RAN is quite complex, due having to support so many customers in the smallest bandwidth possible. I think if you are using stationary sensors LoRaWAN seems to be the way to go. 🙂
Perhaps a plus point for Lora. With Lora you can build a completely self-sufficient IOT network. Data and power. With NB-IOT you need mobile radio and the mobile radio towers also need power.
Im always fascinated by your patience and the way you explain . Thank you Andreas, p.s did you manage at the lab getting other results such as RSSI, SNR of the DUT/UUT ?
You indirectly highlighted one other disadvantage of the cellular-based systems; since cell networks are so much more important and demanding, turn-over in technologies is much faster. As you note, the 2G and 3G networks have already been turned off in most areas, so a cellular-based device purchased 5-10 years ago may very well not work in the future once 6G/7G/etc roll around. LoRaWAN on the other hand, is unlikely to see the same generational churn. If you plan to leave a sensor in place for a long time, this might mean you avoid having to redesign your project sooner.
Interresting. I think, error handling is extremely important for such complex systems to get at least a certain degree of reliability. So many different states can ocur and have to be handled.
It wasn't a problem in urban areas with lots of cell towers but in rural sites where the signal strength we had to revert to telephone lines. The data was uploaded at 2 in the morning and wasn't normally more than 1Mb, it was quite interesting how the system worked. The meter normally tried for 15 mins to upload via 3g. The audio of the TV broadcast has embedded data that is picked up by the meter, similar to the RDS data on FM broadcasts. This data is injected by the broadcasters, it changes once a minute and changes to random codes. The codes are sent to a central office overnight that then matches it to the database.
It of course is much better under many circumstances. LoRa is a very specific protocol for very specific products. And even in those products, you can use simpler and better similarly specced alternatives.
Fantastic coverage of Cellular IoT! One topic I would have included in the downlink discussion is Firmware OTA. Also, MVNOs like 1NCE and Hologram make IoT SIM plans more accessible and affordable around the world.
1nce and Hologramm is multi IMSI only. Andreas got 4 IMSIs with the freedom for automatically switch of the IMSI or manual switching. I prefer manual switching to reduce the energy consumption.
@@AndreasSpiess definitely! OTA has often been a key decision maker for our customers when deciding between LoRa or Cellular. It often comes as a surprise that it's generally infeasible to do OTA over LoRaWAN (though not impossible.)
Just found Hologram after watching this and wanted to chime in. They have a free card promo, but the shipping is steep depending on where you are. However, Hologram still turned out to be cheaper compared to domestic carriers for me, even with $30 USD shipping for a few SIM cards.
Thank you for your effort! Still I do not have a usage of remote transmission outside of my property. But I got a smartmeter gateway for the electricity meter extending the standard electronic electricity meter to a so called iMSys. This gateway communicates over LTE. Might be, they are using such a low data rate protocol.
Some utility companies use those protocols (AFAIK). I wanted to make this video for a long time because I think, the technology is important (everybody talks about M2M in cars and industry). So we should at least know enough to mage a thorough decision. And I did not find a lot of overview videos. I had to search pretty hard to get all the details.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, this topic is very specialized an not mainstream. For the future smart meter gateways of the utiliy companies "LTE450" is released here in Germany. Lower frequencies should help to reach the meters located in the basement.
One feature of cellular, to automatically adapt the radio signale for deep penetration by cost of energy, is mentioned as disadvantage compared to a fixed level for LoRaWAN. Doesn't LoRaWAN also adapt the radio signal for penetration/distance by using some settings? If it's not adapted by that settings, then the gateway needs to be "near by", causing to require more gateways and with that also more operating costs of that gateways.
LoRaWAN has the possibility of power adaption. Howevern not of repetitions (which can easily drain your battery). And I do know how often it is used. Most of the projects I know use full power all the time.
It is nice to own our own equipment and networks and not be reliant on commercial providers to pass our signals on. Maybe Lora is slower but it is nice to not have to be in such a big hurry ! Of course i say this as I use broad band internet , but around here we have our old 1990's ham radio packet system resurrected and 1200 baud is good enough to send messages to each other in our area and a bit beyond too.
I agree. LTE for IOT was on my list for nearly 5 years now. I think it can be a good solution for some problems. Still, after all the investigations, I like the simplicity of LoRa / LoRaWAN. This video was a huge effort for me because it is so complex. Fortunately, I had some help...
Thanx for excellent video Andreas, I have a question : I have a bc92 module that supports only LTE Cat NB2: B3/B5/B8/B20/B28 bands. Is it possible for this module to connect nb-iot cell in China ? When I see geograpgy lte table, I cannot see any bands that my module support ? Thanks in advance !
I do not know which standards they use in China. I just know that, in general, you can get "China" and "international" modules which would imply that there is a difference.
NbIOT is sukcs here in Indonesia since the operator are reluctant to share the simcard to the public , it must be a company based with a profitable purposes
I only tried the buil-in MQTT protocol of the SimCom modem. So I di not know how it works. And the Walter library seems to use UDP. But you have to check how it is implemented. They accept helpers for their open source library, BTW ;-)
That was interesting, I have been evaluating cellular technologies v LoRa and for my use, which it mostly fixed installations or units which are never out of range, the added cost wasn't worth it, but that is not to say it won't be in the future. BTW I just discovered that IoTstack does not in install on the RPi OS due to the installation of mqtt is crashing (the choice of packagehandler).
Hello Andreas, I saw in your mailbag video when you were unboxing the Walter that it came with a 250MB Soracom SIM, did you use that SIM in this video? If so, does it cost monthly or is it a one time fee? I tried looking online for more information but it isn't mentioned anywhere if there is a monthly cost.
I did not check the cost as it came with Walter. AFAIK it is a one-time data budget and if it is used, it has to be recharged (or thrown away). Did you check on the Soracom homepage for their prices?
Thanks for the info, I've checked their site, they don't mention the 250MB plan, they only mention the 25MB/month plan, which might be alright for my project. I'm currently having issues with an Arduino library for the SX1280, and your video has made me seriously consider switching to a cellular modem.
I build weather stations for remote areas, so LoRa isn't feasible because there is no existing infrastructure. Cellular (or satellite) is the only option and I've had a lot of success using LTE (SIM7600) and LTE-M (SIM7070) modems from SIMCom. LTE-M modems are less expensive, bur LTE-M does not have nearly as much coverage as regular LTE! In developing countries, 2G/3G/LTE are often the only option. I have had no problem getting low power consumption by powering on the modem for each transmission then shutting down (transmitting about 200 bytes every 5 minutes on a 18650 battery with a 1W solar cell). I'm using a Hologram SIM card with global coverage. I also had much better luck writing my own library to send AT commands to the modem and transmit via UDP (with acknowledgement for guaranteed delivery) than using any of the existing libraries. Protocols like MQTT have way too much overhead for a low-power IoT use in my opinion, especially if you have a large network of sensors and data usage is a concern.
i want to use the SIM7080g controled by ES32, but i want to save a UART port, in the Datasheet say that has I2C but don't say what is the address 🤕, either say how it works, just send the AT comand througth I2C???🤔 Exellent and informative video
I did not find any information about the I2C interface (only pins). The address is easy: Use ani I2C scanner sketch on the ESP32. I assume you know that the ESP32 has 3 UARTS...
So far I only saw prototypes of 5G satellite communications (and my iPhone for emergency comm). I fear that such devices only will work with a good visibility of the sky and relatively good antennas. But we will see what technology will bring us.
I am so sorry I have no time to waste right now, else I could make protocols working with normal SIM cards. That was my job for a very long time, but now I am involved in a large project and I have absolutely no time to dedicate for such a useful job. Maybe in a year or so ...
The lowest power consumption I have seen was an alarm sensor. It would notify the alarm panel every minute that it was present and would send an open or close event when a window or door was opened. The sensor ran on one 3V coin cell and lasted for about 7 years. And it was about the size of 5 stacked quarters. And it had a wire antenna about 8 cm long. How is it possible to do something like this??!! I would love to do this with a humidity sensor under my house and a few soil moisture sensors around my yard and temperature sensors in my house for a zoned HVAC system.
Most door / window alarm sensors operate in the sub1Ghz band and send data to alarm control panel , at predetermined intervals ( 16 sec to one hour ) or when an event occurs . The alarm panel has to be within the sensor range ( varies with open space , number of walls etc ) or a repeater is used then to increase sensor range . Alarm control panels communicate with the rest of the world with tel modem line or wifi or GSM etc ... but these have large battery ( usually 12V 7Ah ) for staying alive at least 12-24 hours , when mains power goes out !
Informative as always. I got a Thingy-91 a while back and some of it really had me stumped but I think what I've learned here might offer some explanations to what I was missing. I did have some real problems getting an NB-IOT SIM here in Ireland though.
I guess, that statement, that LoRaWAN takes less power than cellular, depends also on the (ip-) protokol used on the top and the used modem. Though you have a PPK II, would it be possible to get your LoRaWAN power consumption for a 100 byte message (or so)?
We did those tests with LoRaWAN. That is why I know that these cellular modes consume more power. LoRaWAN does not use IP, BTW. It just transmitts payload bytes with an additional header.
@@AndreasSpiess sorry for my late response. My question was more, if the cellular measurement was done with something as 100 bytes UDP message, or 100 bytes via MQTT/TLS/TCP. And maybe, you just publish your LoRaWAN numbers? For nRF9160 NB-IoT (normal signal conditions) it's about 100mAs (at 4.0V => 400mWs).
@@achimkraus3269 The message length is not very important for these LTE modems (if in the area of 100 bites) because the time to connect is quite long and the transmission speed is quite high. The messages I used in this video were well below 100 bytes. The Walter library uses UDP.
I used T-7600G-H module connecting and transmitting data to blynk cloud every 1min but when i add feature to do call the data internet get disconnect and modem lost the connection as these module not support concurrency. i try reset modem but it not actually work good...
For me, Lorawan and ttn is too difficult to use, and public coverage is not there yet, also the off the shelf sensors I tried use far too much power...
Hi Andreas I have a Ferrari and want to add remote control to it, what do you suggest for the processor? What do those flying drones use? they have a camera and you can have controls to move around? I could buy a drone or use a very old one with a camera and try to hack into the car; but just want some connected device up to 200 feet and be able to steer, accelerate/brake and have an onboard camera? its a 4 ft long Ferrari. using LoRa is fine, thanks
@@AndreasSpiess Yes thanks but this was a kids car they sit in, and the hope is to make it into an RC car with a camera like the drones have? and to build from scratch unless there is a remote control kit you are thinking of? Id have to make the Servo motor mechanism, am thinking maybe a power window motor out of some car? 12v and torque to spare, but nothing too complicated just something that works fast. thanks
Thanks @andreasspiess, very informative once again! I agree @comments below, 1NCE is awesome for small-data needs, 100MB valid 10 Years with roaming... For a bit more data (eg. our autonomous camera (murgcam on Github) sends one 300kb Photo per Hour), i use a SIM from Digital Republic, 400kbit Flatrate for 4CHF/Month. While testing how to replace the currently used GSM Modem, i found the Digital Republic SIM to work with a ublox SARA-R410M Modem, which is Cat-M1 & NB-IOT only. Has anyone ever done calculations or experiments on the spent energy to send a few hundred kb via NB-IOT vs Cat-M1? Also, i wonder where the limit is, where modem-sleep makes sense vs. powering it completely down. How does sleep-energy compare to the energy spent for re-registering on every wake. 40sec. stated in the video sounds like a lot. With the GSM Modem of murgcam, it made sense to power off the modem, so in sleep we have only the power consumption of the ESP in deep-sleep and the 3v3 regulator losses.
Interesting! The supplier I mentioned was exactly Digital Republic. My SIM card did not work with NB-IOT and, after contacting them, they were astonished that it supported CAT-M... Concerning energy: PSM woith PAI should be best (if supported). Walter consumes just a few microampere when the ESP and the modem is in deep sleep. So that does not count too much. Measuring power consumption is not easy with this technology as it does not always take the same time to transmit data (as said: Repetitions). So best probably would be to deploy a few of them in different situations and measure over a longer time. You see in the power diagrams how long it took to connect to the cell (more than 10 seconds...). But PSM usually is alowed for more than 24h. So you do not need to re-attach.
The 40 seconds in the video is for constantly receiving on eDRX. In PSM 3 uA is today common. If you transmit each 2 to 3 days only, then power off is maybe the better option.
0.5 uA deep sleep current with the Gillette order button developed by my team. Button press on polling active and timer for wake up each 14 days active.
very interesting and it has good use cases, but I still will prefer not to rely on companies for my systems and certainly don't think I would like to pay for a subscription to do so
This has been common knowledge here in Australia for commercial industrial devices. I was surprised it took you so long to pick up the subject. We used to control water and sewerage plants in my line of work with just sms's back in the day.
Sms control in Australia was not used with battery modems I assume. Even the best battery efficient phones had a 3 week battery time in sleep mode . Andreas is comparing technologies you could use for example to send temperatures from an enviroment sensor for years .
@@AndreasSpiess Mining companies DNGAF about cost! Great explanation as always kind sir! I would love to live on the shoulders of such giants like yourself.
We have some asset tracker on bg 95 and ota has been pain, first its slow and fails often to download.. When we had 2g 3g module devices fota was faster and more reliable.
Very interesting video. I use the Nordic thingy 91 and the Quectel BG96. LoRoWAN easier to test ened-to-end, Cellular needs a callbox for end-to-end testing. Also NB-IOT first scan can take up to 25 mins! Cheers!
Only the first scan takes a long while because the modem does not know which country it is in and therefore must search all bands. After the first time, the modem is smart and will try the frequency that worked last time. You can also speed this first search up if you know ahead of time where the modem will be used. For people with Swiss accents, your application could lock the modem to only use band 20 for example.
Great video and happy to see that you are using Power Profiler Kit II (PKK2) to measure current! If anyone wants to learn more about the key benefits of using cellular IoT in LPWAN applications I can recommend this video from Nordic Semiconductor: ruclips.net/video/DA0s7Dkb_sA/видео.htmlsi=p6gG92Zsg-PI6wz_
My experience with nb-iot is devices have the lowest priority at the mast level (UK). Packet loss is high. Devices frequently vanish for days. Hope it's improved since!
Our experience is that NB-IoT is indeed much slower than LTE-M but it has better indoor range. Once connected we have not experienced vanishing NB-IoT with Walter, nor did our beta testers. One of our beta testers in de UK have indeed mentioned that NB-IoT was less stable then LTE-M. In 99% of the cases we think that LTE-M is the superior protocol in terms of speed, reliability and power consumption.
unfortunately lorawan was cumbersome for me. 5g/4g modems are too costly. i still have 2g module still lying somewhere in my home. or maybe just i did not learn wireless properly 😞
@@AndreasSpiess Acutally what i meant was that lorawan gateways are non-existent here so it is just point to point. on the other hand, 2g exists everywhere but the modem uses "AT" commands and is quite power hungry. So wireless is still beyond "reach" for me. I still have to experiment with 433Mhz modules. Making wireless modules with inductors, capacitors and resistors is still a wild fantasy for me.
Sorry this cell carrier story doesn't work. You did point out how long a nbiot radio has to be turned on, which makes it very difficult to run on a battery. LORA is only on for 400 ms, hence how you can get battery devices to last 5 to 10 years. Lora radio distance probably 10 to 30x nbiot. Try nbiot in a rain storm. Try getting your carrier to move their tower to cover your dead zone. All ready having customers moving from cellular iot to LORA. No one missing using 1000s of sim cards, with the hidden clauses in the roaming agreements..... one last thing... you can locate you cellular and LORA antennas without interference
Glad to hear that our Soracom IoT SIM worked so well for you, Andreas!
Happy camper with Soracom SIMs as well.. worked everywhere and attractive pricing.. Also surprised by the cool services to do remote access or end to end traffic security
Same, also a happy customer using soracom for the past few years with some particle borons and others.
25MB data transmission per month
How much bytes is 1 soracom MB?
1024*1024
or
1000*1000
looks like u havent finished school with this question@@Henry-sv3wv
Just ordered a SIM to experiment with.
Encrypted communications through private networks that are not intercepted is still something worth having, regardless of how great you can put sensors onto phones and place in different places.
No reason you can't encrypt the payload you sent over LTE and decrypt it at arrival.
@@m1lespr0w3r But that goes through a network, where even the encrypted data is easier to get hold of. An off-internet network that is private is much harder to steal information from.
Well done. I'd given up trying to untangle the elements that you have explained so well here. You have also identified one of the most powerful assets in this IoT field - a friend inside the industry who a) knows the technology and b) is able to supply SIM cards at near zero cost. As you stated the incumbent 4/5G operators are only interested in volume users of their networks - not us small guys.
Indeed, I like to stand on the shoulders of giants ;-) Happy Easter!
I'm down here!! Happy Easter to you too Andreas.
As someone working in cellular IoT, I think you did a very fair comparison. Maybe to add that NB-IoT has +20db coverage compared to LTE-M so it has better indoor penetration. This is at the cost of repetations hence increased latency and is also the reason why tcp based protocols such as mqtt are not the best choice. So indeed better to use coap. Also LTE-M is much more 2G like. It e.g. also supports voice (VoLTE) though most operators have not implemted that yet.
Thank you for your "verdict". This video took a long time to learn for me. So I am glad you think I got it right ;-)
Sorry you are wrong. LTEM has just 6 dB sensitivity in comparison to NB-IoT. VoLTE is feature of LTEM, but it is not supported in all LTEM networks. The diverse in the supported features in different networks makes it complex. I consult IoT companies with global roll out. The SIM card of Andreas delivered by Crout is a multi IMSI with 4 IMSIs. I can help with up to 25 IMSIs.
CoAP UDP or MQTT-SN on UDP is the way to go. A round trip time of 10 seconds with NB-IoT and LTE-M is possible. I test with my team 5G NTN (NB-IoT by satellite). 10 to 40 seconds round trip time!
Thanks for the video Andreas. Nice to see the familiar Nordic PPK2 graphs and also Walter - Daan and his team have been fantastic to work with and I am so happy that you've been able to feature them on your channel twice now 🙂. As for the CAT-1bis, I've also recently had the opportunity to work with an ESP32-S3 board from Makerfabs that uses the SIMCOM7670 . This seems to offer CAT1bis (10Mbps download, 5Mbps upload). What is super cool about this is that it just worked with any local SIM Card and that it can degrade to 2G/3G if that is all that is available. Yes, there are still places in the "wild west" where this is the case. I myself still have a working Nokla 1280 🙂
The tip for CAT-1bis came from a viewer who works for a big telco ;-)
Thing to remember for Cat1bis is that it's not really an IoT technology. Cat1bis is a variation of LTE Cat1 introduced for wearable like smart watches. The difference between Cat1 and Cat1bis is the removal of the Rx diversity antenna. LTE mandates at least 2 antennas but in a small format factor device like a watch, to fit 2 antennas in would be a struggle and even if you could fit them in, the close proximity to each other means you do not get much diversity gain. So Cat 1 bis was introduced as an exception to the rule requiring LTE devices to have at least 2 antennas. By removing the second Rx chain from a Cat1bis enabled manufacturers to make a cheaper radio module and that was appealing for IoT applications. Of course removing the second antenna means your downlink radio performance budget is impacted.
@@waynelaw8999 - I did indeed wonder why the board only had 1 LTE antenna - your explanation has been great in explaining that. Thank you!
Is that in the U.S.?
@@SoundOfYourDestiny- If you mean the SIM Cards that just worked with LTE CAT-1bis, no, not US. Doesn't mean that it might not work in the US, just that that is not where I tested. If I remember correctly, the SIM7670 data sheet does not show the US as a supported region, but maybe it just hasn't been certified for use there yet.
A great video as always. You missed adding LoRaWAN by satellite, which you talked about some time ago. These connections avoid the problem of lack of coverage. Regarding 5G, I think perhaps the uses for IoT were the main reason for the war between the United States and Huawei, not only because of the higher speed and low latency in computers and mobile devices. 5G should be a great improvement over the previous, so it seemed that all the devices in the world would be connected thanks to 5G, in the trade war or accusations for security not only depended on Huawei routers, which were already available and much cheaper than American Cisco or Nokia ones, but also the security for the IoT that companies, institutions, and consumers were going to use massively.
LoRaWAN over satellites still is a very small niche. I enven do not know if it is widely available now.
Excellent video, as always. I was a little surprised you didn't mention the Particle Boron. Particle has been in the connected devices market for years. The Boron module uses Cat-M and comes already provisioned with their EtherSIM (or eSIM). The code libraries make development easy and fast. I got a temperature and humidity logger up and running in half a day, and it's been running for a year without problems. Yes, you must use the Particle cloud (like TTN) but it supports webhooks to access your data. I was very impressed with the Boron hardware and software and how Particle has made it easy to do IoT.
You are right, I never looked at Boron. Maybe a mistake. Good you mentioned it here. Thanks!
Nb-IoT NTN (non-terrestrial networks) is also very interesting, it uses Nb-Iot modules to communicate with satellites, which is probably the cheapest way to do it at the moment. This is quite new and was only introduced by 3GPP in release 17
I heard about it, but I am not sure if this is cheaper than the 2$/year SIM cards. Do you know a provider for such a service?
Skylo and satteliot are two sources of NTNs but are still only providing Sims to resellers (like montogo or t mobile) or to NDA signatories AFAIK.
@@AndreasSpiess I would have liked to have said cheaper compared to other satellite modems, which cost a few hundred dollars each. About providers, I know of Sateliot and Skylo, but I imagine there will be others soon. Skylo says something about starting at $6/month, but doesn't say how much data is included
This is interesting as a fallback to nb-iot, if there's no cellular network available, it sends data via satellite
@@antaries778 Their homepages do not contain a lot of information. More like startups. Did you test them?
@@AndreasSpiess it wasn't easy, but I have just made an agreement with one supplier and now have a Dev kit and NTN SIM card in the post for a trial. I can let you know how it goes.
Another fantastic video with boatloads of Info! Love to meet you sometime face2face.... Two years ago, I migrated my 2G modems to a SIM7000 module - took a couple of weeks to make it all work...
Thank you! Indeed, this new technology is not easy... But also 2G was not always easy, particularly if you wanted to use several carriers.
Considering that LoRa is a proprietary tech controlled by one company, then yes, anything that reduces company control of everything gets my vote...
Oh didn't know that, somehow assumed it was at least semi open tech.
Lara physical layer has been open sourced by many people. The implementation is available in Python C++ etc. In addition Lorawan is fully open source
@@maximus6884 Try buying a LoRa silicon not from Semtech? Developed by Cycleo and now owned by Semtech. The alliance actively goes after any fab making LoRaWan silicon not authorised by them... Doesn't sound very OS to me...
@@accik LoRaWAN is a proprietary LPWAN-connectivity protocol developed by Semtech (Originally Cycleo developed it and secured the patent, was them acquired by Semtech).
Please, how this matter after buying bunch of chips.
Learned a lot by watching the video as it answered many of my questions about choosing LoRaWan vs CAT-M1.
Glad you liked it!
20:30 I just want to stress that the 'in development' nature of cellular IoT is probably a negative for any serious project you might be considering. I personally don't want to stop getting sensor updates 3 years from now, call up my provider to ask what's going on, and hear "Oh wow, you have one of _those_ old modules? What a blast from the past! So yeah anyway we dropped official support for that old protocol version 6 months ago", and then need to go and replace everything I've deployed. Be sure to judge how reliable you expect your cellular provider to be long term.
I agree.
thank you for all the details. I'm from Belgium and I'm glad to learn about Walter. I've always wondered about a cellular application in the (international) tracking of a large fleet of bicycles for rent, where the users have a low cost option to leave it behind somewhere for someone else to use. Currently the limitation is that it is a subscription based service where you always need to leave the bike where you took it within the same country. If you commute to work with such a bike, the time at work is charged as the rental period, and no-one else can make use of the bike parked there.
You are always welcome to come and drink a cup of coffee with Walter in our office at the coast in Knokke-heist :) Roaming (to have coverage in multiple countries with the same SIM) is very reliable and one of the big advantages of cellular IoT.
genius content, exactly what I was looking for
:-)
Mr Andreas, I use 1NCE, give a check. They have cheap 10-year sim cards for IoT and as far as I understood also available CatM1 and NBIot, if available on the local MNO.
We can confirm that 1NCE is working with Walter with both LTE-M and NB-IoT.
+1 for 1NCE. We've switched to them from another provider after we hit a bump and started searching for bugs in our hw, code and even the modem's firmware, logging cell registration, etc.The previous provider tried to help to some extent though (we had the sense that they were in the blind apart their very onw APN) by suggesting necessary specific modem fuctionality. We have tens of remote devices across a few countries, but sometimes all, other times just one country's network would drop them after 1-2 months and most won't try to reconnect. This made us rethink the LoraWAN idea again, but 1NCE is doing something differently and saved us a lot of headaches.
Funny, we did an LTE-M project 7 years ago, never took off and died 5 years ago, also due to the lack of affordable SIM cards (which seems to have changed in the meantime). It's a bit weird to call it an upcoming technology since a lot of (mostly utility) companies stopped using it already to due unfulfilled promises of benefits. LTE-M is really only usable with eDRX and UDP based (like you said CoAP) protocols like LwM2M in eDRX/queue mode to work efficiently, which is really hard to implement properly and requires careful consideration on the application side and a boatload of tweaking. Anything else will burn through your data (read: cash) and/or power budget way too quickly to be viable (both commercially and for hobby use). In contrast to LoraWAN where you "only" pay for the actual payload that is a huge difference and implementation burden.
I agree with your statements. This is why I think both technologies will have their places. But I also think, that some of the current M2M problems will be solved over time. It is still a new technology if you measure in "Telco time"...
IoT sim cards for LTEM are often LTE sim cards without support of eDRX and PSM. As soon the LTE network will use 3GPP Release 14 instead of Release 13, they will stop to work. This was happen in UK in October 2023. Andreas got from Crout multi IMSI UICC with 4 IMSI and 3GPP Release 14 plus roaming contracts for NB-IoT and LTEM. His Walter PCB will work in nearly any network on this nice blue planet.
Fantastic information... Keep it coming!!!
Thanks! Will do!
Hologram sim cards work great for me in the US. I have been playing with a sim7000 for a few years and i think it the best!
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Wow, amazing how much knowledge and info you present!!
Thanks a lot indeed for your invaluable work for this community!! ❤
Thank you for your kind words!
Great video!
Would love to see a comparison of indoor penetration of LoRAWAN vs NB-IoT. This is one area where there is a lot of debate at my company (deploying IoT projects). I have found some studies, but nothing really conclusive and a lot of marketing bullshit sadly.
Especially some practical tests would be nice, since there is so much going on (repeat transmission in NB-IoT, ADR/SF for LoRa, different max allowed power, chirp spectrum, distance to gateway/cell tower, etc.)
We have done extensive testing in Belgium at 200 locations with Walter. Both with LTE-M and NB-IoT. We have done the same in the past with LoRa(WAN). I can say that NB-IoT has the best range (we could communicate through a metal lid from two stories underground). The difficulty in making a true comparison is that we do not have control over the base station in case of cellular. Maybe we should lock Walter to a certain antenna and do a range test and do the same with a LoRa transceiver. I'm open to suggestions.
Thank you for the video. Many of the new cellular chips also support GPS, e.g. the SIM7000G
I agree.
Thank you from England
You are welcome!
Thank you! Extremely informative!
Glad it was helpful!
For Austria, Germany and Switzerland, you could have a look at 1NCE or q.beyond, they specialize in IOT sim cards
Thank you for the tip! Indeed, they seem to have similar offers.
Great informative video. Thank you. Finally learned why the power consumption is greater on IoT "sims".
In my country you need to be a professional to get have IoT sims. LoRaWAN is a one way solution. Even with professional access, the sims are expensive. LoRaWAN is free.
Others also mentioned the need to be a business to get IOT SIM cards. Check the Walter link because they prepare a SIM card for everybody.
Great video as always. Objective comparison
Thank you!
Thanks Andreas for all your efforts. I follow you from years (you got me into Lora since then and now it's exploding). You say we need filters if near a cellular tower but which one? The usual SAW filters has 2-3 dB insertion loss that is high for a 22dBm node (BTW most of those filters has a max power handling of 18-20dBm). Cavity filters are outrageously expensive...and rare
One of the gateway providers indeed adds cavity filters for that purpose. They seem to be needed if you want to mount it on the cellular tower.
Great video!!
The issue I have found with the NBIoT is getting the battery to last.
It would be absolutely fantastic if it was possible to deploy sensors and they actually lasted for 5years. Also considering the self discharge from the batteries etc.
Could you make a video of that?
A complete example solution for deployment that actually last 5years?
-Choosing hardware (cost effective)
-choosing sensor and communication (example 1-20mA?)
-Complete Arduino code that use deepsleep and optimizes the communication for power consumption.
-choosing battery
-tip and trix
For the moment I do not plan additional cellular IOT videos :-(
Interesting stuff. Cellular is everywhere, but the cellular RAN is quite complex, due having to support so many customers in the smallest bandwidth possible. I think if you are using stationary sensors LoRaWAN seems to be the way to go. 🙂
I agree.
Perhaps a plus point for Lora. With Lora you can build a completely self-sufficient IOT network. Data and power. With NB-IOT you need mobile radio and the mobile radio towers also need power.
I agree.
Thank you, very helpful. Currently looking at an IOT project...
Glad you liked the video!
Thanks Andreas, you are the best!
My pleasure!
Love From India ❤ Sir
Thank you!
Im always fascinated by your patience and the way you explain . Thank you Andreas, p.s did you manage at the lab getting other results such as RSSI, SNR of the DUT/UUT ?
I did not do any tests about the link budget. The video already was 20 minutes long ;-)
I don't consider myself to be that brave ... may I follow you into this journey anyway? BTW, your videos are fantastic! Thanks!
I think you have followed my videos for quite some time. So you know what you have to expect ;-)
You indirectly highlighted one other disadvantage of the cellular-based systems; since cell networks are so much more important and demanding, turn-over in technologies is much faster. As you note, the 2G and 3G networks have already been turned off in most areas, so a cellular-based device purchased 5-10 years ago may very well not work in the future once 6G/7G/etc roll around.
LoRaWAN on the other hand, is unlikely to see the same generational churn. If you plan to leave a sensor in place for a long time, this might mean you avoid having to redesign your project sooner.
That is why I mentioned that these protocols are also part of 5G. But generally, you are right.
We used 3g to connect TV viewer meters to back when i was working for BARB. Nightmares of unreliable connection.
Interresting. I think, error handling is extremely important for such complex systems to get at least a certain degree of reliability. So many different states can ocur and have to be handled.
It wasn't a problem in urban areas with lots of cell towers but in rural sites where the signal strength we had to revert to telephone lines.
The data was uploaded at 2 in the morning and wasn't normally more than 1Mb, it was quite interesting how the system worked.
The meter normally tried for 15 mins to upload via 3g.
The audio of the TV broadcast has embedded data that is picked up by the meter, similar to the RDS data on FM broadcasts.
This data is injected by the broadcasters, it changes once a minute and changes to random codes. The codes are sent to a central office overnight that then matches it to the database.
I followed you on this journey... so I guess I'm brave now?! Great video!
Yes, you are a brave man!
It of course is much better under many circumstances. LoRa is a very specific protocol for very specific products. And even in those products, you can use simpler and better similarly specced alternatives.
What kind of protocols do you mean with "you can use simpler and better similarly specced alternatives"?
Thanks a lot Andreas! It's very instructive!
Glad you think so!
Fantastic coverage of Cellular IoT! One topic I would have included in the downlink discussion is Firmware OTA.
Also, MVNOs like 1NCE and Hologram make IoT SIM plans more accessible and affordable around the world.
OTA is an important story. But definitively too much for an introductonary video... And thank you for the link to other SIM card suppliers!
1nce and Hologramm is multi IMSI only. Andreas got 4 IMSIs with the freedom for automatically switch of the IMSI or manual switching. I prefer manual switching to reduce the energy consumption.
@@AndreasSpiess definitely! OTA has often been a key decision maker for our customers when deciding between LoRa or Cellular. It often comes as a surprise that it's generally infeasible to do OTA over LoRaWAN (though not impossible.)
Just found Hologram after watching this and wanted to chime in. They have a free card promo, but the shipping is steep depending on where you are.
However, Hologram still turned out to be cheaper compared to domestic carriers for me, even with $30 USD shipping for a few SIM cards.
Super Sach! Merci vilmol fürs teilä!
Gern geschehen!
Thank you for your effort! Still I do not have a usage of remote transmission outside of my property. But I got a smartmeter gateway for the electricity meter extending the standard electronic electricity meter to a so called iMSys. This gateway communicates over LTE. Might be, they are using such a low data rate protocol.
Some utility companies use those protocols (AFAIK).
I wanted to make this video for a long time because I think, the technology is important (everybody talks about M2M in cars and industry). So we should at least know enough to mage a thorough decision. And I did not find a lot of overview videos. I had to search pretty hard to get all the details.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, this topic is very specialized an not mainstream.
For the future smart meter gateways of the utiliy companies "LTE450" is released here in Germany. Lower frequencies should help to reach the meters located in the basement.
One feature of cellular, to automatically adapt the radio signale for deep penetration by cost of energy, is mentioned as disadvantage compared to a fixed level for LoRaWAN. Doesn't LoRaWAN also adapt the radio signal for penetration/distance by using some settings? If it's not adapted by that settings, then the gateway needs to be "near by", causing to require more gateways and with that also more operating costs of that gateways.
LoRaWAN has the possibility of power adaption. Howevern not of repetitions (which can easily drain your battery). And I do know how often it is used. Most of the projects I know use full power all the time.
It is nice to own our own equipment and networks and not be reliant on commercial providers to pass our signals on. Maybe Lora is slower but it is nice to not have to be in such a big hurry ! Of course i say this as I use broad band internet , but around here we have our old 1990's ham radio packet system resurrected and 1200 baud is good enough to send messages to each other in our area and a bit beyond too.
I agree. LTE for IOT was on my list for nearly 5 years now. I think it can be a good solution for some problems. Still, after all the investigations, I like the simplicity of LoRa / LoRaWAN. This video was a huge effort for me because it is so complex. Fortunately, I had some help...
@@AndreasSpiessWell you did a fantastic job on this video, so please pass thanks on to those helpers. And that Anritsu test gear is not cheap!
Thanx for excellent video Andreas, I have a question : I have a bc92 module that supports only LTE Cat NB2: B3/B5/B8/B20/B28 bands. Is it possible for this module to connect nb-iot cell in China ?
When I see geograpgy lte table, I cannot see any bands that my module support ?
Thanks in advance !
I do not know which standards they use in China. I just know that, in general, you can get "China" and "international" modules which would imply that there is a difference.
NbIOT is sukcs here in Indonesia since the operator are reluctant to share the simcard to the public , it must be a company based with a profitable purposes
This seems to be the case in other countries, too.
If they opened LoRa up then it would have a better chance. It really does have technical advantages over the others for true ultra-remote sensing.
TTN is open source. Only the chip is proprietary. Which is the case for most chips I use.
Hey, did you look at the transport protocol MQTT-SN? It’s UDP-based and optimized for sensor networks
thats transport. not communication. its different layer
as mentioned
I only tried the buil-in MQTT protocol of the SimCom modem. So I di not know how it works. And the Walter library seems to use UDP. But you have to check how it is implemented. They accept helpers for their open source library, BTW ;-)
That was interesting, I have been evaluating cellular technologies v LoRa and for my use, which it mostly fixed installations or units which are never out of range, the added cost wasn't worth it, but that is not to say it won't be in the future. BTW I just discovered that IoTstack does not in install on the RPi OS due to the installation of mqtt is crashing (the choice of packagehandler).
I would post your problem on the discord channel of IOTstack. So far, it always installed and it should remain like that.
@@AndreasSpiess Great thank you :)
Andreas, have you had time to use the Walter 5G NB-IOT card yet? If so what did you think of it?
I made my tests with Walter, yes.
Hello Andreas, I saw in your mailbag video when you were unboxing the Walter that it came with a 250MB Soracom SIM, did you use that SIM in this video? If so, does it cost monthly or is it a one time fee? I tried looking online for more information but it isn't mentioned anywhere if there is a monthly cost.
I did not check the cost as it came with Walter. AFAIK it is a one-time data budget and if it is used, it has to be recharged (or thrown away). Did you check on the Soracom homepage for their prices?
Thanks for the info, I've checked their site, they don't mention the 250MB plan, they only mention the 25MB/month plan, which might be alright for my project. I'm currently having issues with an Arduino library for the SX1280, and your video has made me seriously consider switching to a cellular modem.
I build weather stations for remote areas, so LoRa isn't feasible because there is no existing infrastructure. Cellular (or satellite) is the only option and I've had a lot of success using LTE (SIM7600) and LTE-M (SIM7070) modems from SIMCom. LTE-M modems are less expensive, bur LTE-M does not have nearly as much coverage as regular LTE! In developing countries, 2G/3G/LTE are often the only option. I have had no problem getting low power consumption by powering on the modem for each transmission then shutting down (transmitting about 200 bytes every 5 minutes on a 18650 battery with a 1W solar cell). I'm using a Hologram SIM card with global coverage. I also had much better luck writing my own library to send AT commands to the modem and transmit via UDP (with acknowledgement for guaranteed delivery) than using any of the existing libraries. Protocols like MQTT have way too much overhead for a low-power IoT use in my opinion, especially if you have a large network of sensors and data usage is a concern.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
i want to use the SIM7080g controled by ES32, but i want to save a UART port, in the Datasheet say that has I2C but don't say what is the address 🤕, either say how it works, just send the AT comand througth I2C???🤔
Exellent and informative video
I did not find any information about the I2C interface (only pins). The address is easy: Use ani I2C scanner sketch on the ESP32. I assume you know that the ESP32 has 3 UARTS...
@@AndreasSpiess yep, but is not enough, and software serial sometimes crash 😕
@@stefanoclementi3550 Then you have to invest your time and try ;-)
What are your thoughts using LoRa and StarLink to transmitting text data? Now that they now have 5G cellular conductivity
So far I only saw prototypes of 5G satellite communications (and my iPhone for emergency comm). I fear that such devices only will work with a good visibility of the sky and relatively good antennas. But we will see what technology will bring us.
Yes, indeed, it is extremely interesting and very useful. Many thanks.
You are welcome!
I am so sorry I have no time to waste right now, else I could make protocols working with normal SIM cards. That was my job for a very long time, but now I am involved in a large project and I have absolutely no time to dedicate for such a useful job. Maybe in a year or so ...
Indeed, a library for these new modes is important...
The lowest power consumption I have seen was an alarm sensor. It would notify the alarm panel every minute that it was present and would send an open or close event when a window or door was opened. The sensor ran on one 3V coin cell and lasted for about 7 years. And it was about the size of 5 stacked quarters. And it had a wire antenna about 8 cm long. How is it possible to do something like this??!!
I would love to do this with a humidity sensor under my house and a few soil moisture sensors around my yard and temperature sensors in my house for a zoned HVAC system.
I do not know how it was done. Are you sure it used 4G?
Most door / window alarm sensors operate in the sub1Ghz band and send data to alarm control panel , at predetermined intervals ( 16 sec to one hour ) or when an event occurs .
The alarm panel has to be within the sensor range ( varies with open space , number of walls etc ) or a repeater is used then to increase sensor range . Alarm control panels communicate with the rest of the world with tel modem line or wifi or GSM etc ... but these have large battery ( usually 12V 7Ah ) for staying alive at least 12-24 hours , when mains power goes out !
very interesting ! tnx
You are welcome!
Cool stuff. Thanks!
My pleasure!
I didn't realize cellular IoT was this far along. Thanks for the info.
My pleasure!
awesome video !
Glad you enjoyed it!
Informative as always. I got a Thingy-91 a while back and some of it really had me stumped but I think what I've learned here might offer some explanations to what I was missing. I did have some real problems getting an NB-IOT SIM here in Ireland though.
Indeed, getting an IOT SIM card seems to be a challenge. Particularly if you are not a business.
I guess, that statement, that LoRaWAN takes less power than cellular, depends also on the (ip-) protokol used on the top and the used modem. Though you have a PPK II, would it be possible to get your LoRaWAN power consumption for a 100 byte message (or so)?
We did those tests with LoRaWAN. That is why I know that these cellular modes consume more power. LoRaWAN does not use IP, BTW. It just transmitts payload bytes with an additional header.
@@AndreasSpiess sorry for my late response. My question was more, if the cellular measurement was done with something as 100 bytes UDP message, or 100 bytes via MQTT/TLS/TCP. And maybe, you just publish your LoRaWAN numbers? For nRF9160 NB-IoT (normal signal conditions) it's about 100mAs (at 4.0V => 400mWs).
@@achimkraus3269 The message length is not very important for these LTE modems (if in the area of 100 bites) because the time to connect is quite long and the transmission speed is quite high. The messages I used in this video were well below 100 bytes. The Walter library uses UDP.
I’ve had a pretty good experience using Hologram IoT SIM cards
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Helium network providers world wide LoraWAN coverage!
Everywhere, but not here :-(
I used T-7600G-H module connecting and transmitting data to blynk cloud every 1min but when i add feature to do call the data internet get disconnect and modem lost the connection as these module not support concurrency. i try reset modem but it not actually work good...
Thank you for sharing your experience!
For me, Lorawan and ttn is too difficult to use, and public coverage is not there yet, also the off the shelf sensors I tried use far too much power...
All depends on the use case, I think...
Thanks
Welcome!
NB-IOT service is only available for commercial use and not individual use😢
The service is not limited, but it is hard to get SIM cards for non-commercial companies. The Walter crew is working on the issue...
Thank You 🙏
You’re welcome 😊
Thx Andreas
You are welcome!
regarding NB-IOT and CAT-M1: what chips to use?
I do not know, because I did not do any tests. I think, the available libraries will be a deciding factor for prototypes and small series.
Lorawed is still alive he has good band
??
632 cui... Wow, 10.35 liter engine, pretty massive.
:-)
Hi Andreas I have a Ferrari and want to add remote control to it, what do you suggest for the processor? What do those flying drones use? they have a camera and you can have controls to move around? I could buy a drone or use a very old one with a camera and try to hack into the car; but just want some connected device up to 200 feet and be able to steer, accelerate/brake and have an onboard camera? its a 4 ft long Ferrari. using LoRa is fine, thanks
I would use a standard remote control. They are made to control RC cars. So yours is only a bit bigger ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess Yes thanks but this was a kids car they sit in, and the hope is to make it into an RC car with a camera like the drones have? and to build from scratch unless there is a remote control kit you are thinking of? Id have to make the Servo motor mechanism, am thinking maybe a power window motor out of some car? 12v and torque to spare, but nothing too complicated just something that works fast. thanks
Thanks @andreasspiess, very informative once again!
I agree @comments below, 1NCE is awesome for small-data needs, 100MB valid 10 Years with roaming...
For a bit more data (eg. our autonomous camera (murgcam on Github) sends one 300kb Photo per Hour), i use a SIM from Digital Republic, 400kbit Flatrate for 4CHF/Month.
While testing how to replace the currently used GSM Modem, i found the Digital Republic SIM to work with a ublox SARA-R410M Modem, which is Cat-M1 & NB-IOT only.
Has anyone ever done calculations or experiments on the spent energy to send a few hundred kb via NB-IOT vs Cat-M1?
Also, i wonder where the limit is, where modem-sleep makes sense vs. powering it completely down. How does sleep-energy compare to the energy spent for re-registering on every wake. 40sec. stated in the video sounds like a lot. With the GSM Modem of murgcam, it made sense to power off the modem, so in sleep we have only the power consumption of the ESP in deep-sleep and the 3v3 regulator losses.
Interesting! The supplier I mentioned was exactly Digital Republic. My SIM card did not work with NB-IOT and, after contacting them, they were astonished that it supported CAT-M...
Concerning energy: PSM woith PAI should be best (if supported). Walter consumes just a few microampere when the ESP and the modem is in deep sleep. So that does not count too much.
Measuring power consumption is not easy with this technology as it does not always take the same time to transmit data (as said: Repetitions). So best probably would be to deploy a few of them in different situations and measure over a longer time. You see in the power diagrams how long it took to connect to the cell (more than 10 seconds...). But PSM usually is alowed for more than 24h. So you do not need to re-attach.
The 40 seconds in the video is for constantly receiving on eDRX. In PSM 3 uA is today common. If you transmit each 2 to 3 days only, then power off is maybe the better option.
@@HaraldNaumann The deep sleep current of Walter is 9.8uA. 1uA is for the Sequans in PSM, 8uA for the ESP32-S3 and 0.8uA for our DC-DC converters.
0.5 uA deep sleep current with the Gillette order button developed by my team. Button press on polling active and timer for wake up each 14 days active.
very interesting and it has good use cases, but I still will prefer not to rely on companies for my systems and certainly don't think I would like to pay for a subscription to do so
I agree. If your sensors are stationary, LoRaWAN is a good solotion.
This has been common knowledge here in Australia for commercial industrial devices. I was surprised it took you so long to pick up the subject. We used to control water and sewerage plants in my line of work with just sms's back in the day.
As I explained, up till now it was not easy to use nor in a good price range here in Switzerland...
Sms control in Australia was not used with battery modems I assume. Even the best battery efficient phones had a 3 week battery time in sleep mode . Andreas is comparing technologies you could use for example to send temperatures from an enviroment sensor for years .
@@AndreasSpiess Mining companies DNGAF about cost! Great explanation as always kind sir! I would love to live on the shoulders of such giants like yourself.
@@christosmoutevelis4896 Do you have some real world experience? Because that's what I'm talking about.
We have some asset tracker on bg 95 and ota has been pain, first its slow and fails often to download..
When we had 2g 3g module devices fota was faster and more reliable.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Very interesting video. I use the Nordic thingy 91 and the Quectel BG96. LoRoWAN easier to test ened-to-end, Cellular needs a callbox for end-to-end testing. Also NB-IOT first scan can take up to 25 mins! Cheers!
Good to know about the 25 minutes! Because all our carriers use B20, I was able to shorten this a bit ;-)
Only the first scan takes a long while because the modem does not know which country it is in and therefore must search all bands. After the first time, the modem is smart and will try the frequency that worked last time. You can also speed this first search up if you know ahead of time where the modem will be used. For people with Swiss accents, your application could lock the modem to only use band 20 for example.
@@waynelaw8999you never search for all and limit to the popular bands. Clever code is the way to win the game.
@@waynelaw8999 That is what I did ;-)
SIM M2M are yhe denomination that you refer in this video
You are right.
Great video and happy to see that you are using Power Profiler Kit II (PKK2) to measure current!
If anyone wants to learn more about the key benefits of using cellular IoT in LPWAN applications I can recommend this video from Nordic Semiconductor:
ruclips.net/video/DA0s7Dkb_sA/видео.htmlsi=p6gG92Zsg-PI6wz_
Thank you for the link. Of course, they do not mention the issues I encountered, they focus on large corporations ;-)
Interesting.
Glad you think so!
Thnks
My pleasure!
Also don't forget cat1-bis
I thought I mentioned it in the end ;-)
my boss was at China presenting our IoT devices. There was NO interest in LoRa, only to Cat1.
Well possible. But CAT-1 seems to be quite fast and therefore power hungry…
I didn't know that was a Swiss accent. And why does everyone assume Americas eat steak? Is it unusual for people to eat beef?
I eat steaks if I am there 😉
My experience with nb-iot is devices have the lowest priority at the mast level (UK). Packet loss is high. Devices frequently vanish for days. Hope it's improved since!
Our experience is that NB-IoT is indeed much slower than LTE-M but it has better indoor range. Once connected we have not experienced vanishing NB-IoT with Walter, nor did our beta testers. One of our beta testers in de UK have indeed mentioned that NB-IoT was less stable then LTE-M. In 99% of the cases we think that LTE-M is the superior protocol in terms of speed, reliability and power consumption.
You should make a video about WiFi HaLOW
I do not think this will play a role in Europe. At least not with the current regulations. So a US guy has to do it.
Just clime the towers and put some meshtastic repeaters up lol
They probably would be killed in less than a minute (because of the lacking filters ;-) )
NEVER go with proprietary technology like LoRa !!
Good decision. Hard to implement because most things I use in my live are propretary :-(
Yeah, just use 5G in all of your projects, and use that with your covid vaccines. ,':3
unfortunately lorawan was cumbersome for me. 5g/4g modems are too costly. i still have 2g module still lying somewhere in my home. or maybe just i did not learn wireless properly 😞
LoraWAN is a good entry, I think. 2G was also not that easy…
@@AndreasSpiess Acutally what i meant was that lorawan gateways are non-existent here so it is just point to point. on the other hand, 2g exists everywhere but the modem uses "AT" commands and is quite power hungry. So wireless is still beyond "reach" for me. I still have to experiment with 433Mhz modules. Making wireless modules with inductors, capacitors and resistors is still a wild fantasy for me.
MIOTY is designed for massive IOT!
Massive on a small area, you are right.
Maybe the next video of Andreas?
Sorry this cell carrier story doesn't work. You did point out how long a nbiot radio has to be turned on, which makes it very difficult to run on a battery. LORA is only on for 400 ms, hence how you can get battery devices to last 5 to 10 years. Lora radio distance probably 10 to 30x nbiot. Try nbiot in a rain storm. Try getting your carrier to move their tower to cover your dead zone. All ready having customers moving from cellular iot to LORA. No one missing using 1000s of sim cards, with the hidden clauses in the roaming agreements..... one last thing... you can locate you cellular and LORA antennas without interference
I agree with your comment. LoRa is good if you do not need cellular. They have different use cases.
...👏🎉🎯💯👍❗+4 the algorithm.
:-)
Neverknew i can still remian alive this time of why
??
@@AndreasSpiess San Andres goes communisam
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Rip for LoRaWan in Thailand
You still can place your own gateway. Ot is ISM forbidden in Thailand?
"Crout, a German Company" ... Brit humour FTW.
I think, I know what you mean ;-)
We just the leading company in multi IMSI UICC and 5G NTN antenna design. Andreas got 4 IMSIs. I can help with up to 25.