Break Room Interviews: Jonathan Blow (Braid)
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- Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2024
- The creator of Braid talks about his latest project, his willingness to speak his mind, and his ideas on how to elevate the cultural significance of games.
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00:02 What is _The_ _Witness_ about?
01:20 On (1993) _Myst_ and related games
03:19 On older puzzle & text adventure games
04:25 On the puzzles in (2008) _Braid_
06:26 On the puzzles in _The_ _Witness_
08:13 Do successive puzzles in _The_ _Witness_ build upon prior puzzles?
10:28 On the backtracking puzzle in _Braid_
12:02 Did you scrap anything during _The_ _Witness_ development?
14:28 On Jon's recent Twitter post about certain highly-acclaimed games
15:30 On standards in novels
15:46 author J.D. Salinger
16:00 On standards in games
18:23 On gameplay issues (other than story)
20:05 What role do you think critics have in establishing taste and highlighting interesting things?
24:38 "There's really no way around this. Anytime you criticize anything, people on the Internet are going to criticize you in return, so it is what it is."
24:46 On the distinction between fun games and challenging games
27:28 On comparing games to movies
30:55 Do you think game critics are moving in the right direction?
33:19 "I don't really care if a game is made by two people or if it's made by two hundred people. I just want (the game) to be interesting."
34:02 On whether games are becoming more like movies or comic books (or neither)
35:11 How do games become recognizable by the larger non-gaming public?
36:30 On iPad games
38:34 On Facebook games
41:08 How do feel about this disconnect between marketing and message of games?
42:00 On (2013) _Bioshock_ _Infinite_
43:25 On movie posters
44:03 More about (2013) _Bioshock_ _Infinite_
45:07 (1951) _The_ _Catcher_ _in_ _the_ _Rye_ novel by J.D. Salinger
46:07 (2010) _Red_ _Dead_ _Redemption_
50:05 How important do you think it is to have narrative and gameplay mesh?
55:07 What is like to make video games?
56:14 "...most people in the world are not interested in video games and don't think about them..."
56:50 What is the reaction when you meet people and tell them you make video games?
57:50 On typical reactions Jon receive when meeting people
59:38 On comic books
1:00:50 Does _The_ _Witness_ have no violence?
1:05:15 On the expectations for _The_ _Witness_ versus _Braid_
1:09:10 On showcasing an early version of _The_ _Witness_ at PAX 2010
1:11:05 On working with a team on _The_ _Witness_
1:11:40 Are you worried at all about being a public figure and letting more than just the game speak for itself?
1:12:52 On being a public figure on the Internet
1:13:58 "I don't want all the Internet grief and negativity to have a chilling effect on my willingness to say things."
1:14:09 On media training
1:17:05 What kind of impact do you want to have _The_ _Witness_ to have?
1:17:28 On the impact of _Braid_
1:18:30 On the reaction after the release of _Braid_
1:19:06 (2012) _Indie_ _Game:_ _The_ _Movie_ film
1:19:28 "The attitude towards games is different now."
1:20:08 On casual web games in the mid-to-late 2000's
1:20:23 On 'hidden object' games
1:20:38 On making the best thing possible with _The_ _Witness_
1:20:57 "We're all this trying to make the best thing that we can."
1:21:38 (end of interview)
thanks a lot!
Can't believe I missed a 1h20 Jonathan Blow interview. for so long
ikr!
JB is such an inspiration. He deserves the success he has.
+casvanmarcel jb? justin bieber?
+ToadStool Jr. No you absolute (toad s) tool, he's clearly talking about Jacobs Biscuits.
Agree.
Great interview. RIght? :)
I have respect for the interviewer. You can see that he tries hard to ask substantial questions.
Wow, this was an awesome interview. I don't get the people who call him "pompous" or anything, because he very clearly explains his thought process and it always seems to come from a humble and honest place of just wanting to try different things. I'm buying The Witness day 1.
its coz the ppl who call him "pompous" are either...
(A) trolling
or (B) are limited in their capacity to understand intelligent discussion.
But seriously, i don't see any of the things they're complaining about like him being "pompous" or "not good at explaining things" etc....they're watching a different video to what im watching.
after the 19th interview where you get to hear about him and his games and what he is focusing on and himhimhimhim.... you start to feel the pomp. Imagine if he pushed his intellect into describing someone other than himself.
wforbes87 But it's an interview, the point is to talk about himself.
tehcaptainhair haha! I was going to say the same thing to him but decided it wasn't worth it.
tehcaptainhair Yeah I get what you mean, the topic is him and what he's doing. I suppose it's not up to me to audit this dudes personality. He just seems very self focused. I can think of many people that if they had been interviewed at length they would go into pretty decent depth on the people they are working with, their styles and thoughts, stuff like that. After a while he just starts appearing as sheldon cooper on big bang, I can imagine him talking down to a graphic designer like sheldon talks down to howard haha.
The 3 people who think Blow is pretentious don't understand that gamers are no longer satisfied with _fast_ _food_ _gaming_. Gamers want something that is a little more cerebral and respects their time instead of yet-another grind-for-gear fest. NPR did a brilliant interview 2 years ago called "Cow Clicker Founder: If You Can't Ruin It, Destroy It" that highlights the epitome of idiotic "Social Games" which are neither social nor games.
www.npr.org/2011/11/18/142518949/cow-clicker-founder-if-you-cant-ruin-it-destroy-it
Wonderful comment, and I have saved the video you linked to with interest. :) x
Jonathan Blow just seems like the kind of person who has trouble articulating what is going on in his mind so when he tries to say what he really feels... he fumbles over his words and such because his ideas all make sense in his mind and he wants to be assured that his point gets across as clearly as possible. I think he may SOUND sometimes like he is being arrogant and/or dismissive to other developers because he approaches development so much differently than most people that it is hard not for him to express his disagreement with how certain games are being developed. I don't think he wants to be disliked by so many... you can always tell he never enjoys putting other developers down...
THANK YOU! I agree with you 100% the dude is NOT good at explaining things. He seems to kind of dance around a point and you can't quite figure out what he is trying to say. The guy does know his shit and is well respected. I will agree Braid was a good game... buuuuuuut I'm gonna agree with others in that its not THAT great. I don't think the dude is a dick. In fact most people who know he really well have said the dude is one of the nicest people he has ever met.
I'd like to learn all I can from him but honestly he is pretty difficult to understand at times.
I go through what you've described here with my thoughts, and so watching this interview and seeing the comments (other than yours) about his mannerisms really had me thinking that what you've said is right about his thoughts and their articulation! Cheers
Tim Thanks man, glad my point makes sense to some people. I think too many ppl are too quick to write him off. Considering he is an independant game developer... they forget that he is, in fact, NOT some triple A videogame spokesperson... So he may not have flawless public speaking skills, but the guy is flat out honest and you can't help but appreciate how deeply he appreciates videogames and their future. The dude is the man
I dunno, I understand clearly everything he says.
@@shortcat Yeah and often he absolutely IS being arrogant and dismissive. But's that's OK sometimes when you have an unpopular opinion and the goods to back it up!
I don't get how people can think he comes across pretentious or pompous.
The guy has a viewpoint on video games that goes beyond what can be easily expressed in words, and he's trying his damn best to make games that wrap up his vision as best as possible.
+SoilentGr33n My same sentiments too. Though I think that those people who say so aren't exactly in the proper position to actually 'grasp' Blow's notions. Thus, what they hear from the guy is a cacophonous ramble that doesn't mean anything to them. I totally could call someone who doesn't make sense yet speak with infectious intent 'pretentious'. But The Witness tho.. that game..
+Matt Terio I agree.
Guys like him and Peter Molyneux are the reason why I think video games are the greatest art form of the last century.
SoilentGr33n There's this Kojima guy too..
Matt Terio Yeah there are many others, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
Oh yes absolutely bro. Sad to see people in the comments aren't exactly appreciative of their contributions.
Watching this after playing The Witness, I love how that everything he says makes perfect sense. It really did turn into exactly what he wanted it to be.
For example, when he talks about the systems and progression near the beginning , it perfectly matches what I thought and what I love about it. The natural learning is so elegant and makes it so worth it to play.
If he says "right" one more time...But seriously, there's an interesting discussion here about game aesthetics/taste and the role of critics. I think the main idea to take away is that there is large spectrum of interests in games, and Blow is trying to bring out a part of that spectrum that caters less to teenagers wanting to shoot things, and more to the heightened, critical thinking, challenging side of things.
I think the interviewer did a great job.
The quality of this video is fantastic as well. Well done!
1:11:35 "We're at the final stretch!"
-- Jon Blow, 2013
When puzzles are difficult, players can resort to random trial and error, but what makes a difficult puzzle good is when you appreciate the solution and feel a sense of accomplishment after solving it.
Only the weirdest people get a sense of satisfaction from opening a combination lock by sequentially brute-forcing the combination. Solving a well-crafted puzzle is more like reading a wonderful story than reading a phone book.
Aww it makes me feel... I don't know what... that Jonathan Blow's mannerisms are so similar to my own. Wish I'd have somebody like him in my environment. He seems like someone I'd harmonize with a lot... Oh well...
Not to worry. They exist. You'll find them.
same
That bit about shooting 860 guys reminded me of a brilliant movie, "Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery". It has a number of scenes addressing this point, in a comic way, but still. When the main character shoots a random guard, they'd show a short clip of that guard's friends gathering, for example, to throw a birthday party for him. Then they'd receive a phone call like "I've bad news. Bobby is not gonna come. He was shot down by Austin Powers", and mourn Bobby for a bit. Sure it's part of a joke, but come to think about it... How many mourning wives or children of a random guy that just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time you do see in action movies?
Ironically, he does address the fact that he's just a dev with an opinion. And it does still surprise Blow that suddenly his opinion is suddenly "valued" just because he made a game. On that point: he makes great points about the gaming industry over just *shoot shoot*. One is around 33 min, where he talks about the comic vs. film tangent. I'll understand if that's an old insight to you, but that was a great point that I haven't heard from anyone else.
The comic book reference to how the form has nothing to do with super heroes came from The Mindscape of Alan Moore. Jon also quotes that documentary in his Video Games speaking to the Human Condition talk.
Braid is so challenging. The entire time playing I was thinning "am I dumb? Is this supposed to be easy?" In the end I really enjoyed it. I think the puzzles are so good, I'm blown away with how Jonathan thought of them all
To Jonathan Blow games can be more than fun.
He does not talk shit about Bioshock. He is just saying that a regular non-gamer cannot look at Bioshock without commenting on the use of violence.
His Red Dead Redemption is a better example.
"Quality standards; very important." Quoted for greater justice. More specifically, I like when creative, intelligent people make games that they would want to play themselves, that live up to their ideals. I can see how it could be both exceptionally liberating and challenging to be able to develop and complete anything, but we're better for it.
Successful drive and ambition is to plant a seed instead of eating it when you're hungry. People seem to too often take the easy, but shortsighted way. People that don't deserve our attention and respect.
Watch his lectures. They are great. The guy sure has a point. He said it himself, it's his point and it shouldn't be everybody else's point, but it's important to talk and think about these stuff.
This was a really great, insightful interview. I especially appreciated the comments re: internet criticism having a chilling effect on public figures.
It's really sad when what could have been an interesting discussion between thoughtful people instead devolves into PR speak. The saddest part, though, is that this PR speak is necssary. Not always, obviously, but it's the cost incurred by the rare cases when the Internet goes on one of its witch hunts. (Or rather: There are always a finite number of Internet witch hunts going on, and people use safe PR speak so as not to become one of the targets.)
I LOVE this series and all the interviews. What a treat! Thank you for doing this, GameSpot.
When he talks about Red Dead Redemption, I can't help but think of Samurai Rebellion. I think Toshiro Mifune stabs almost 100 guys with his Samurai sword in the final scene and it's still a very poignant movie. But I totally get what he's saying.
+Jason Ronzani Great point! I think the same could be said about Kobayashi's other poignant samurai film "Seppuku" a.k.a. "Harakiri".
Right?
I wish I could hit the like button on this interview a dozen times
I've never heard anyone else make the comparison. They probably have; I've just never heard it. I only said that because David Lynch is one of my favorite directors and they're both successful auteurs who fill their media with a lot of esoteric symbolism.
I think his opinion about people getting mad and annoyed is spot on. At the end of the day, they're just games, and he's just a man.
I don't know how many people actually know the "problem" with Braid which they're talking about at about 12 mins, but it would actually be fairly trivial to change. (minor puzzle spoiler:) All he would need to do is swap one of the pieces you get from 'three easy pieces' with one of the pieces you get from 'leap of faith'. (I think those are the level names),
Interesting talk more developers need to do this show people how hard it is to make it in the industry.
I miss those interviews and old gamespot in general.
I totally agree with his "stand on the block" comment. I loved the Bioshock Infinite story and setting, but that game seriously treated you like a child.
I can't help but wonder "why do they treat you like a child? Why are they treating you like you wouldn't understand things?"
yo, i love JBlow...that is all
His appearance and speech is strongly reminiscent of a younger Dave Murray (guitarrist in Iron Maiden)
This guy is one of my favorite game designer ideologists.
They're ONLY talking about games you haveto buy - neither of them are talking about the mad free mod world of madness - if you 45:00 theres that half life 2 mod of the guy in that room - you could give that to anyone and they'd be like - wtf - that was really deep and meaningful
I always felt the same about Bioshock !! That's so great to hear that there are actually more people who think that way !! And for those who disagree, try to explain the little sisters concept to someone alienated from games.
* "but those things aren't broad enough in my eyes"
i was trying to say that those things are like more focused in a certain part of the video game development than in video game design per se.
sry for english.
yea you're right thats a few more. Also I totally can't just forget about MIYAMOTO! Kojima, Kamiya, Ueda, and Suda. Even though he's only made one game Josef Fares made possibly the most important game of the decade with Brothers, so I can't wait to see if that guy also makes another game. Actually, games have quite a lot of names of designers who have a track record of non stop awesome.
yeah, I love what Rohrer does... also Terry Cavanagh, the guy from vvvvvv a specially great game designer me thinks.
And that guy Cactus (now from hotline miami fame, but he was making strange video games for years) is also crazy good.
I mean, they games aren't only fun, which i think is important, they also seem to have a point and that's great!
Hah, the interviewer seems so uncomfortable through a lot of the interview... like he wants to say something or argue a point but lacks the nerve to say it.
So many people take it so personally when you criticize something they like as if it's a personal attack against them or their lack of standards or something... as if that game is really the "be all end all" of the genre without any room for improvement or critique (until the next version of the game comes out and the previous one now 'sucks.') The COD franchise comes to mind with the great scheme they've got going, re-releasing the same game each year in a new box... revolutionary!
while i like your comment, i think that might just be what that guy's face looks like.
at the beginning he takes some ideas of ron gilbert ... I see a great influence there
With regard to the puzzle in the first world which required back tracking (about 11:00), I think that he could have avoided that issue by just shifting that puzzle to get the piece to the END of that world, where completionists would already have acquired all but one of the pieces (the one that puzzle unlocks). I really liked that puzzle myself (upon completion) but I can see why people could find it frustrating.
Pretty Pretty Pretty Good true that, can't be easier lol.
Im glad Jonathan Blow looks deeper into game dev, im a game developer, despite me hating most games because of how poorly executed they are. The average person doesn't want to talk about games beyond "it was good" or "it was bad" but if your a game developer its important to understand what human conditions are being aroused (lol) with your artwork. mad interview
Sounds like he would have enjoyed finishing Spec Ops: The Line.
One thing this mister i know it all needs to realize is that there are different kind of games which people chose to like. For example moba, mmo, rpg, fsp, tps, open world, interactive, mystery, psychological, survival, strategy, puzzle, exploratory, platform, racing, fighting, sport, indie and AAA games which could be action, adventure, horror, sci-fi. We all can't make the same kind of game. If you like puzzle games ? Good ! but don't put down all other games because there isn't enough puzzle solving in them.
I remember finding Jonathan Blow to be insufferable in Indie Game The Movie, but in most other contexts he just seems to be relentlessly intelligent, thought-provoking and likeable.
Just curious, no malice, did you like Braid? If you didn't (or did) what other indies did you like?
JB is a national treasure...
1:20:28 - could that hidden object game be called The Witness :DDD
Several times already in The Witness I've figured a puzzle mechanic out, been moving along the progression with ease and than BAM! The next puzzle is like "WTF? How TF am I supposed to make THIS work?" It's pretty amazing when you figure those out.
OTOH I've brute forced a couple puzzles and still don't have a fucking clue how they are supposed to work, and that sucks.
This discussion is very interesting. Imagin Ken Levine and Jonathan Blow having a talking like this for an hour...
0:44:00 I never looked at it like that, that's a very good way of looking at it. Imagine Good Will Hunting had him shooting 860 guys, it wouldn't be the same movie. I love bioshock & RDR but to call the story engaging is a little absurd when you really think about it. If they made Bioshock in to a film and there was a body count similar to the game it'll be laughed at by critics. It's just the nature of entertainment.
I can name a game developer who every game that person makes I'm automatically interested, Jason Rohrer. Hopefully Jonathan Blow will be another one of those people.
amazing interview
I was thinking, it could be great for the media, if we had more people famous for their theories and thoughts rather than being the developers of a particular videogame. After all there is so much more on game design than that.
It is indeed a corridor shooter, you progress through linear pathways while shooting enemies, although with some creativity involved unlike CoD.
Great interview!
He’s like a real life salarian
The biggest question for me is, why would anyone do an interview with Gamespot? They are so critical.
Bravo! Splendid performance! I commend your excellent work.
The Jonathan Blow of videogames.
oh man the interviewer's neck must have been miserably painful afterwards.
+DaWanderer i dont get it.
+Raspy Moth He nods a lot.
Why everyone tried to prove his point? That's his opinion about the game he played.
If you like that game. That's fine because it came from your opinion.
I don't try to protect Jon Blow's state or anything. No need to argue what's better
Choose what you want everyone have different taste and perspective.
The question around 31:00, i think critics moving in completely the WRONG direction. Pushing games like "Journey" & "Walking Dead", which are not much more than movies with button prompts, does not help people appreciate *games* more. IMO it just seems like critics are only pushing these arty-farty games because they're desperate for some professional credibility, as opposed to being seen as grown men who talk about video games all day for a living (not that there's anything wrong with that, but critics themselves seem to have a hangup about it).
Some people still like games for their actual gameplay & some of us would much rather see games with a solid & tight gameplay mechanism being pushed rather than these semi-interactive movies which are designed to make you cry/scared/feel depressed (not only over the storyline, but over the fact you effectively just spend $50 on a DVD) rather than have fun & be challenged.
It's not like we're getting fewer mechanical challenging games. Nor fewer games where "fun" is emphasised. I think they are jumping on those games, because they're trying something "new"/different. The problem is not much new is happening on the mechanical side at the moment. The latest AAA titles are using date mechanics with grand stories like The Last of Us, or sequels of already established good mechanics games like Dark Souls. I can't really recall a new game with interesting mechanics that's lately been released; so yeah Journey & Walking dead kind of deserved those awards, because unlike mechanical focused games they were actually doing something new and tried to move the medium forward.
So you should be more irritated that not much new is happening at the mechanic sides, rather than the media.
i liked the blatant Maus reference 0:34:17
The problem with Bioshock is that at its core it is still a game. In order for people to appreciate Bioshock and Red Dead Redemption they have to have played 10 years of FPS.
Jonathan Blow is wrong to say that common FPS modes lower the appreciation of games.
There is nothing wrong with setting your message towards violence; the Walking Dead, the Last of Us and Bioshock are all games that have violence. It is by confronting said violence that creates discussion even though you shot 862 faces.
ithink more devs should do this
He must've loved the old X-com games
I would rather play a comic book video game than to watch a movie because they have spoken directly to my soul more so than movies have. I appreciate that games are branching out into different areas for different people but if comic book video games go, so do I. But I doubt they will.
SPOILERS FOR THE ENTIRE GAME INDUSTRY
The merging of narrative, themes, and gameplay has already happened, ages ago. Thief 1 is very seamless, and real art. Dwarf Fortress is lightning in a bottle. Shadow of the Colossus is a masterpiece too. The "art vs fun in games" crisis is constructed to sell minimalist "art games." The truth is, mediocrity is the general rule, innovative works of art are, and will always be, rare. Most games will be generic crowdpleasers, because developers need to make money, sometimes big studios take a risk, sometimes indies find success. But replacing dumb shooters with pretentious puzzle games (or walking simulators) doesn't fix the problem, because the majority of things will be average, by definition.
right
but it seems games really cannot have as much impact as movies even mainstream action movies from the 80s and 90s. I think games should try and strike the same emotional bar as these movies and not just be graphically/mechanically complex even tho those things are important.
Well seeing as its an interview and he's asking him his opinion on things mostly obviously he will sound pretentious. But in terms of him fancying himself, all his points were still valid so either way its just your own opinion at that point.
The David Lynch of video games.
This guy thinks big, wish we could get more content from him but the witness looks great
I've been told all my life how dangerous driving is and how that should motivate you to be safe. Now I don't want to drive. The same thing applies to video games. I've been told that it's so hard to make a game. Instead of that motivating me to work hard, that makes me not want to make a game. This is the opposite of progress.
> Let's do an interview in a noisy environment.
JO BLOW!!!
Very inspiring!
44:18 he admits it
OMG! GOD of the indie game dev!!
The fact of the matter is games do get made, people do make it to the finish line no matter how much they whine, which is done with every job, but at the same time you can't tell people it's easy, because it's not, so let it be.
Makes a little game with a rewind dynamic that's been done before. Acts like he is God's gift to game design.
You know this is so funny. I saw a small interview of his about braid and he was talking like this big shot designer who has done a lot of work. So I looked him up and braid is the only thing he's made that's actually on the market. Maybe I missed something but nonetheless he does give an impression that he's the boss. I do agree with his ideas about mainstream gaming companies not doing it right these days but easy there pal...
+DaWanderer He actually talks about that at 22:00
+DaWanderer You're coming from the wrong assumption that all the reference names in the industry only produce good stuff. It's the work that matters. You're only looking at the end result. Very few reference names can produce a good game without a team behind them. Apart from the art and music assets, Braid was coded by Blow from the ground up. It doesn't use any game engine or anything, like 99% of AAA titles do.
+Crimson Sunrise Art, Music and Character design were done by other people. Blow did all the programming and the game design, which is still amazing. But audio/visual artists also deserve credit
nicolasaeg He does credit them. Watch other 'less' constructed interviews and you'll see.
I don't see how Bioshock was a corridor shooter... It's actually one of the few fps games that are actually fun, and not repetitive. Unlike Cod
For one thing, you can't criticize a sequel of a video game without gamers getting upset that it's just "progression" even though it actually sucks, whereas with movies people can admit that a sequel sucks. Maybe gamers need to stop being so dumb.
dude in the black looks like Daredevil
I agree so much. We need academia and scientific research, all we have now is guts and experimentation. And everything on game design right now is so one-purpose only statements and so meant for making a concrete game you will sell. Instead we should have more theory and good scientific generic-purposes articles and manifests (etc).
47:00 Django!
He didn't play Heavy Rain ?!!!
This is all Jonathan Blow can ever say about the gaming industry. I even stated he's said this all before in written/film interviews and even at the PS4 conference and here. I don't understand why so many people consider Jonathan Blow to above other indie developers and why his opinion is worth more than others when I Braid wasn't anywhere as interesting as Fez, Super Meat Boy or even Journey. Braid is an amazing game, but...why is he praised/looked to so much when his opinions are so shallow?
aint a gd enuff game for a god like him
reupload?
By the way, how does this video show you that it's reallly hard to make it in the industry? I'm 50 minutes in, and I don't feeling anything that discourages me.
haha, typed like 500 words and I was trying to say the same you said.
Good use of language can save lifes XD
played braid for a while, didn't really liked it.
Still I think johnatan blow it's kinda like the most important theoretical figure in video games right now, because if you think, there isn't much theory on the field (maybe video games postmortems and stuff on level design but those things aren't broad enough in my eyes)
Waiting for the witness to come out, it can be a pretentious piece of boring media with amazing art or really the best game ever... in both cases I think it's gonna be legit.
Is that supposed to be a joke because if you look though Gamespot you will find, as luck would have it both of those have done an hour long break room interview
Your English has come on leaps and bounds since we last spoke. You're nearly ready to be introduced to society.
Man. He's really overhyping the game for me.
I didn't know he had facial expressions
Perhaps because of the media? What? This is from Jonathan Blow himself, so much of this video is about how he considers the gaming industry is about military warshooters.
*Randomly click to anywhere in the video*
49 minutes in. Shooting people in the face.
He has said this same points over and over in written interviews, in live interviews like this, in Indie Game: The Movie, at the Sony conference. What is this dudes problem? Why is he so damn uneducated on an industry that he's apart of?