That Time Skyrim Retconned Oblivion's Most Interesting Lore...
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Oblivion's radiant conversations actually hold one positive point to them, background lore, yet... Skyrim goes out of its way to make sure none of that line shines through to it. Why and how? This'll be some interesting cut content and retcons we'll be looking at today.
19:09 Regarding saint Jiub. He eradecated all the cliff racers on Vvardenfell NOT all of Morrowind so nothing is invalidated here.
I‘m pretty sure, that one of the loading screens in Skyrim says, that the isle of Solstheim was given to the dunmer by the high-King after the red year. So maybe the nords did take it over
I vaguely recall that it was something of solstheim having drifted into nord sea. Like the island drifted far enough away from morrowind to where it now belonged to Skyrim. Weird example to explain, but imagine Alaska broke off from Canada and drifted closer to Russia so Russia claimed it as their own before giving it back to America following California sinking into the sea after the eruption of Yellowstone.
@@JustSomeDude42nah that wasn’t weird I loved it. Perfect analogy and a funny thought experiment. Thank you.
@@bokrugthewaterserpent3012 That doesn't even seem that weird to me... After the Red Mountain exploded, it has become significantly less appealing to push the boarder, it's not great further in, and Solstheim hasn't really ever been much of a prize outside of a foothold.
@@bokrugthewaterserpent3012 Since the Nords considered Solstheim their territory, "given to" in this context could mean "allowed them to keep".
@@bokrugthewaterserpent3012 Why should Torygg care? It wasn't his conquest. That happened hundreds of years in the past under a different dynasty, and even then it was acknowledged as unlawful/not correct of the nords to do since it probably went against what the Empire wanted.
The Somerset Isles rumours predict the rise of the third Aldmeri Dominion.
And what irked me about Skyrim was the lack of any destroyed oblivion gate remains. That would have been a cool nod to Oblivion.
I believe they are in Skyrim's game files if I'm not mistaken. I remember a mod I played some years back accidently added an oblivion gate in the water like just outside Riften.
I think the writers clarified that the folks in Skyrim destroyed every Oblivion gate so that it won't haunt them and such. This was also a big contention when the USSEP/USLEP creator Arthmoor deliberately inserted the Oblivion gates back into Skyrim.
@@ElysiumLeoSK Arthmoor is not the only ''creator'' us USSEP. Don't give that cretin any more credit than what he deserves
@@Nuniixo Ah yeah my bad my bad
@@forehand101 There are none in Skyrim's game files, though a new oblivion gate asset was made for the Anniversary Edition for the Creation Club 'The Cause' Creation, and made available as an asset for usage. However none existed prior to that in Skyrim's original 2011 or SE 2016 release.
If a mod 'accidentally' added an oblivion gate then the author accidentally added one from a modder's resource, rather than any base game files, there was one modders resource for Oblivion Gates made by Hanaisse in 2012 which was what all mods adding oblivion gates were using until fairly recently.
One way to look at it is that a lot of the rumors were just that, rumors.
It seems they used the 200 years forward so they could just ignore the set of rumors from Oblivion.
Something of notice is the lack of HF and HR rumors. I wonder if it was because the not released spin off that was supposed to be in HR.
I get curious their cherry picking of Pocket Guide and game book references
Falkreath got demoted from the birthplace of the Colovian Emperor Zero to a logging town with a death fetish;
Whiterun still has the family feud but no mention of the Witch Queen or the floods and droughts (maybe the ruined house was to symbolize the hard times?);
The Reach hold was demoted from the metropolitan bread & basket of the province to a region who only dig silver and gold (and no mention of the Voice College, in the game with shouting as a mechanic);
Solitude still has the bard college, the imperial faith temple, the Blue Palace from the Wolf Queen (which I think it was a bad interpretation of the palace in Cyrodiil);
Riften returns the Barenziah biography to the TG quest and her barbed friend as an easter egg;
Winterhold got obliterated. From Nordic Byzantium to college campus.
Windhelm somehow carries alone the nordic tradition of disliking foreigners (mainly elves)
TBF, Pocket Guide is implied to be Imperial propaganda, and the Voice College was seemingly filled with charlatans and the like
Snowhawk was a capital in Arena and a ruin in Skyrim, I like to think it was the oblivion crisis
Now that we're a few heavily heavily modded TES games deep, it's starting to look less like retcons and more like a wishlist the devs insert, 'We can just say this exists and 20 years from now some team will make it all to spec for free, until our next release nullifies all of it they might even believe we will put any of it in a game.' - And it's definitely working, if you look at TR and Project Tamriel. Todd has done it again.
Idk if you understand the concept of world building lol
Whats TR?
@@radthadd Tamriel Rebuilt, I assume
While I get why Bethesda downplayed the Oblivion Crisis in Skyrim, as to not alienate new players; the entire series is filled with refrences to historical events, that you have to learn about in dialog and lore books. For example: The Wolf Queen questline in Solitude relies on information only mentioned in the lore, the Glenmoril Witches are in the Companions quest line without much introduction and one of the more unique locations in the world is a direct reference to the tie in novels. Would it be that much more confusing for new players if there were refrences to this historical calamity that directly led to some of the major events in the game.
This is a cop-out plain and simple. If someone's picking up game number 5 in a series they've never played before, should it not be completely expected that they'd be "confused" until they learned the lore? This is part of the problem with Bethesda; you can't learn when the information just isn't there. But it should be.
The Glenmorial Witches are older than that actually. They were a rare encounter in ES2 where you could find Covens of them in the Wilderness. They could summon any Daedra for you at any time but they could only do so randomly; want to talk to Sheogorath? Too bad, it's Molag Bhaal. Want someone specific? Wait for their one holy day out of the Year and try a Temple. 😂
None of these are retcons at all. It seems that this person doesn't know what the word "retcon" means. Just because they didn't add the same rumors that NPCs talked about in a game that is based two hundred and one years after Oblivion doesn't mean it has been retconned. They just chose not to add it because, for the most part, it was just some random dialogue that didn't mean much in the end. That is like saying that because they didn't add rats into Skyrim but they had them in Oblivion, rats are now retconned.
Tbh Todd Howard even said the games are not realistic representations of the universe of the elder scrolls. Like all the cities are way bigger then in the games.
Rats are in Skyrim, but the dominant species is just the Skeever, they're one and the same
@@Nuniixo Not in the game, Skyrim. I know in the lore, but gameplay wise, there are not creatures with the name "rat"
Like other people have said Juib only cleared Vvardenfell of Cliffracers, that's about 1/4 to 1/3 of Morrowind, so people going hunting for Cliffracers in Morrowind still works. Also, I think part of that was more a fun easter egg than anything else, as I think everyone hated the Cliffracers in Morrowind (the game) so having the first guy you meet clear them out is fun :)
I might be wrong, but I read somewhere that the "syndicates of wizards" that were boycotting goods in Summerset Isle were the Thalmor. So that rumour did obviously feature an outcome if true.
Also, to be complete accurate, Jiub drove the Cliff Racers from Vvardenfell specifically, the quote you provided at 19:19 could potentially mean other parts of Morrowind?
Two things about the rumours of the other provinces:
1. They're rumours. Gossip. Maybe they're true, maybe they're false, maybe they're somewhere in-between. Blah blah, unreliable narrators (on the note, remember that in-game books are also a form of unreliable narrator, since in-universe they're being written by people stuck with their own misconceptions, biases, and agendas). How does some guy in Leyawiin know what's going on in High Rock for instance? It's on the other side of the continent. Similar to if someone in medieval Portugal were to talk about events occurring all the way in Russia. Take everything that an NPC says when talking about rumours with a grain of salt, as the writers are under no obligation to explain to you how heresay works.
2. A lot of these would have been contained within the last year of the 3rd era, and therefore wouldn't be relevant to 99% of the population of Skyrim, the oldest of whom would've been less than a negative-century old during those events. Unless if there's a political or social cause for it, or they're a history buff, nobody really cares what happened more than a hundred years before they were born, especially since it would therefore have literally no relevance to whatever you're doing in the day-to-day. Do you know what was happening in your home town 200 years ago? Do you genuinely care?
I will admit though, one thing that does seem odd is how the Great Houses were handled. Flipping the narrative to a full 180 is pretty weird. Of course, the vast majority of people didn't notice or just didn't care because it was throw away dialogue between NPCs that people didn't really care about to begin with.
Beyond that, this video just felt like a waste of my time. The absence of explicit reference to something doesn't mean that thing was retconned away; that would be like saying that because Glarthir wasn't mentioned at all in Skyrim, then he's just been completely retconned out of existence. Vivec is still a character in Elder Scrolls lore, and Skyrim never did a damn thing to change that.
Yeah, there are things you can criticize in Skyrim but this sure ain't one of 'em
The way they pronounce Falkreath in Oblivion makes me gag and laugh.
Falk Ray Ath. /shudders
@@neoqwerty I know right?
None of these things were retconned.
For real. Skyrim takes place over 400 years after Oblivion so most of those "current event" dialogue lines are old history by then. There's a ton of ruins throughout the old holds of Skyrim that could easily be from the Oblivion Crisis. Solstheim still belonging to the Dunmer just means the Nords lost whatever fights they had over their border dispute. Some random drug cartel is hardly gonna be remembered, let alone relevant, 400 years later.
I don't think this guy knows what a retcon is.
@@Zartanyus It's 200 years.
@@Nuniixo Indeed it is. I guess I mixed up 4th era and year 201 in my head and came out with 401, haha.
I think my overall points still stand, though.
I look forward to seeing how much historic detail they add in TES:VI.
"Dragons? Myths and legends, I tell you!"
Too bad. Some of those odd ruins in Skyrim could have been ruined Oblivion gates. 300 years between games allows them to ignore most things from Oblivion though.
Eh, fans will find a way to string it together with headcanon and fanon.
Most of these are just not followed up on, but not necessarily retconned, so we can treat them as canon. just not important enough to mention.
For the rest, we can assume that the NPC gossiping about it wasn't as in-the-know as they thought they were.
The Solstheim one is pretty egregious, though, iirc Dragonborn claims the nords gifted Solstheim to the dunmer following the red year, meaning they already controlled the island, which might make the rumor of a nord invasion a bit silly.
I always thought the Empire controlled the island, with the staffed forts and the East Empire Company town that you help start up. Or at least that the Empire felt entitled to Solsteim. Possible that an influx of Nords to "reclaim" the island while the Legion was slowly withdrawing back to Cyrodiil like Vvardenfell's happened, and the Imperials took it as an invasion instead of the correct "you have gall setting up on land you don't even own"?
@@neoqwerty playing through Morrowind recently...
The Empire considers Morrowind an independent province with Vvardefell being the frontier/edge of the Empire.
Solsteim is essentially untamed wilderness, with Fort Frostmoth being recently built and considered the farthest outpost (think being stationed in Alaska or Antartica in our world.
Ravenrock doesn't exist prior to the players arrival. You basically spend the East Empire Company questline building and establishing the mining town.
The most extreme northern settlement in vanilla Morrowind is an old Nord fishing village. Most likely a vistage element from the Nord invasion and occupation of Morrowind in the 1st era. The Dunmer just don't seem to care for the extreme northern regions of their homeland.
oblivions npcs in general are more interesting and have more immersive conversations than skyrim’s heavily-scripted npcs
Skyrim takes place over 200 years after Oblivion. People not talking about a war from that long ago makes sense cause they weren't involved in it.
200 years is also plenty of time to rebuild after the oblivion crisis. Why would Skyrim be decimated that much later? Just think about how quickly cities etc rebuilt after the 2nd world war which wasn't even 100 years ago.
People often don't casually talk about these kinds of things just randomly.
Jiub dying somewhere else is whatever tbh, other people here pointed out the cliff racer details.
Skyrim was also first planned to have a completely different story with the Dragons coming from akavir so if that was something they may have had a semblance of plans for it naturally makes sense to change some things.
My guess is the devs were like, "Okay what can we write that **sounds** like it could be true but we don't necessarily need to stick with it. I think they intended from the start for that dialogue to be throw-away since it doesn't seem like Bethesda ever has the ability to plan years ahead. Just my take though, curious if others feel the same.
Bethesda constantly suffers from "let's plan for this", then they change mid-setup because something sounded cooler.
Daggerfall was supposed to be called Mournhold, and to solve the "something is driving its citizens crazy" hook that Arena's city blurb for Mournhold pitches.
Then Morrowind was supposed to be called "Tribunal" and follow up on Morgiah's Wedding quest where she promises "her first" to Mannimarco, and it was supposed to have the royalty of Summurset and the corruption of the Psijic Order.
Then Oblivion was supposed to be "Tharnatos" and deal with Tharn's Mythic Dawn and Ayleid revivalists.
Then Skyrim was supposed to be about the Civil War and the dragons were just a side quest, and they swapped them out.
Happy to see you broke 1k! Thanks for the lore deep dives.
I feel like these complains are strange considering one of the main aspects of the Elder Scrolls, the Unreliable Narrator. You are forgetting that these rumors being discussed are just that, rumors that have made their way into the talking points of cyrodil, from people who only tangentially know about them.
No one really knows what happened to Viviec, mostly because its kinda up to the player. So some people thinking the Daedra took him is a believable theory. Yeah some great houses ended up better off than others, but whos to say their plans worked out? Or maybe it was propaganda.
I thought that Saint Jiub only wiped out Cliff Racers on Vvardenfell, not mainland Morrowind.
None of these are retcons at all
Do you talk about events from 200 years ago every day?
Well, yes, I do, but real life doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things here. You’re making a direct follow-up to a game where they had world-ending consequences. The world isn’t as in-depth as our own, so it wouldn’t be out of the question to at least acknowledge some of it. The assassination of Uriel Septim was just as long ago, but it still gets brought up. Why shouldn’t the follow-up be?
good video
about the Jiub stuff, thats just classic Bethesda writing, they never think about consequences of events, they just thought it would be cool and it ended there
Sad but trueeeeeee
lol apparently you are wrong
I think you can find Jiub's head in Kvatch
literally write as I wrote that lol
You can. Its sitting on top a dresser in the ruined house full of Daedra opposite the church.
@@CorvoFG With a soul gem near it too!
Love your content!
Oblivion itself forgets about the crime syndicate; who absolutely should've been more prominent on the Southern border and had way more dealings with the thieve's guild. The Grey Fox was very strategic with skooma trade trying to avoid as much damage to the impoverished citizens of the dock's district
My headcanon about the daedra worship is it was taken advantage of by the Thalmor who flushed it from the isle as a populist movement appeasing to the traditional ideals of the Altmer
I cannot believe Dres would abolish slavery even if the Numidium itself demanded. Which is why I prefer Skyrim's version where the Argonians plow through the House's territories. Also Houses working together? Ridiculous!
I guess Redoran becoming much more popular after the events of Oblivion giving it a renewed membership may be a possibility. It's not every day you see a city revive a massive crab to fight spiky assholes. This could've also brought some solidarity from the Nords which leads into the sympathy shown during the Red Year
How the fuck does the richest and most loyal to the Empire House just die? What the fuck Todd
The Empire has literally declined? It lost whole provinces and wealth in the great war. Add that to the fact that the legions were called back to cyrodill and that morrowind was left to defend themselves. You think house Hlaalu wouldn't suffer any repercussions from all that?
@@valentinchappa6702 obviously the Empire is in decline, but at best weve shifted from a golden era with the dragon's blood to a more politically intriguing one more akin to our Rome at it's peak. The greatest departure and shifts we have seen is the Empire giving Hammerfel it's
autonomy back and the assassination of Ocato.
Hlaalu is loyal to where the money is and if Skyrim is anything to go by money is still power. I doubt Redoran would be willing to partake in some sort of war over tradition post crisis as their numbers have greatly slimmed while Hlaalu is more than happy to pay for more men + partake in proxy wars. Dres has denounced slavery so who knows how they're getting along without their main export haha. Telvanni is the strongest case for having a go at Hlaalu taking advantage of their economy and traditionalism - but like the modern Empire they're marred in politics leading to inaction.
It's simply weird Hlaalu just dies rather than say it dissolving into Imperial companies or new Eastern ventures. It's the one house that has it's slimy roots dug into every inch of society and will refuse to die
@@Aanderan well I don't think Hlaalu declined instantly the second you turned off the Xbox 360, but over 200 years it makes sense that come the dragonborn dlc, some remembers of the house are personally willing to plan out a campaign of revenge, instead of just hiring the Morang Tong, or a private army. People forget that the 3rd Aldmeri Dominion didn't just come out of nowhere. The fact that the Empire bailed on basically EVERY province left a spiritual wound(and literal wounds) that wouldn't just be forgiven or forgotten. The Empire is so WASHED by the great war let alone the 4th era. It's safe to say that it's vassals would also decline and diminish.
no they forgot the lore lol
I always wondered; in Skyrim, you never come across any remnants of the Oblivion Crisis? 🤔
Like, no crumpled Oblivion Gates or anything? Though I guess there are crumpled Forts dotted around I suppose...
A lot of places in Skyrim are in the state of ruin or disrepair, like all the forts and Whiterun's fortifications, my personal headcanon is that probably quite a few of them were destroyed/damaged during the Oblivion Crisis and most weren't ever repaired since, especially some of the more isolated forts
So anyway, I started Dragon Breaking.
I just got confused with your mentions of this Daedra being, me and my boys only know the foul D-dra