This series is the best thing I’ve seen on RUclips in a long time. There are so many pointless guitar build videos out there these days. (Thanks GGBO!🤦♂️) I feel like I’m actually learning something from these. Great presentation style too. It’s clear you’re in it for the right reasons not just an ego stroke. Thanks for sharing this!
I'm in my seventies and can"t play anything but you have inspired me to want to build one of these, having never even heard of them till tonight I think my son playing will enjoy it more than enough to bring me great pleasure as I listen, but my main purpose in commenting is that as an old mechanic I"ve done my fair share of soldering and I believe if you beg borrow or steal a "real soldering iron", one that doesn"t have a power lead and you use what was called a blow torch to heat the copper head stuck out on a steel rod with a wooden handle , the torch had a gun sight "v" at the front which the shaft of the soldering iron would sit in and a hook at the rear would hold the iron balanced while it re heated having been strategically placed to put the head directly in the flame of the torch, I will try to get a picture, old plumbers would use a soldering iron to solder a corrugated water tank as they did in australia and probably USA when Adam was a boy. ,you will find it transfers a steady heat to the solder and allows you to control the solder and it"s flow along the joint and therefore save you filing or excess solder removal. It does need to be continually sat back on its frame and reheated. A green tinge to the flame indicated it was at temperature. ps you would still need to contour the solder ( file it ) dave
Hi Dave, thanks for the detailed comment. "When Adam was boy" 🤣. Hopefully you have time to make it further into the video build series as I figure out the best way to build these. I have tried many options since the soldering iron with the cord, I have now settled on a propane torch that is working extremely well. I did this first build with a butane mini torch and it worked fine but it was slow. The new propane torch is much much better on the 2nd build and I think I get a better solder joint with it because it is hotter. Thanks for following along, really appreciate it. James
My feeling (as a low tech metal fabricator) is you should raise the top out of the sides about the same distance as the thickness of the side plate; that way you can build up a solder joint "on top of the side", which you can sand to a rounded profile. Great job you're doing! Thanks a lot for sharing this :)
My brother who was a sheetmetal worker built his out of bell brass and TIG welded all joints and ground to a fine finish, his friend who had a custom guitar shop in the UK made the neck. It sounded awesome!
When I weld on sheetmetal, I tack it slowly and skip around not welding on any area for more that a second or two. That helps me keep the warpage down.
Great Job I,ve built my own as well a Square hollowneck Hawaiian Tricone,in the same method that the Dopera,s had done according to letters from Don Young.Keep going with your first prototype!
Thanks. That's cool you've built your own, hopefully I can say the same soon. I'm putting the first (which is really the 2nd) prototype aside for now. The 3rd is coming along swimmingly tho.
I agree….the top is way tooo thin…I own a 1931 National Triolian…I’m surprised at how thick the steel actually is,,,.no flex at all in it….hope that helps…
Yep that helps. I had concerns about the gauge steel as soon as I started cutting the f holes. Sometimes experience is the best teacher, I'm still not sure if the 20 gauge I'm using now is ideal or not.
Such a wealth of information! I'm planning to build one as well. Do happen to sell your plans/schematics? I got a friend with a plasma cutter, and I'm hoping that I can get them to make me a sort of kit.
large mass brass iron( the one that's heated by external source ) is the way to solder metal parts like this; steel, SS copper.... way less distortion, homogenous repeatable clean welds and it is much quicker.
I've seen people use those, they look good. Not sure where you get them and they look like they take up a fair amount of space. I'll see what I can learn about them. Thanks.
Andmondson already said make it a relic. I think a little body filler or spot putty is within reason. Metal work is really flawless right out the gate. All that said I think it's coming along quite reasonably.
Thanks Dane, I had some of the same thoughts with body filler etc. I like relic's a lot, but the thing that makes relic's cool to me is that they were once perfect and then became a relic. I raise an eyebrow at things that are born as a relic Lol. I feel like this one served it's purpose and taught me a lot. Prototyping guitars is a difficult task, I remember my first Les Paul build... wowzers!
I never made a guitar but I done a lot of bodywork in steel and Aluminium. The cuts in the outer flange are not necessary and the flange could be shorter. The soldering should be done with a heavy iron and flow the solder to the iron which transfers to the steel for a near perfect capillaried filet of solder in the joint.
I agree the flange could be shorter, that's my next change. You think I could bend the edge over the form without the relief cuts? The originals have the relief cuts so I was just carrying on with that concept. Results have been good so far but I'm all ears if that can be done easier. With the laser cutting it's extremely simple to make the cuts and it's pretty flawless on the bend over. Thanks for the comments.
@@Ninety2guits I could definitely hammer dolly a flange without the cuts on such gentle curves especially if they were only say 3/8. and it would help the solder sup into the joint for which I would be using a heavy duty electric soldering iron. For the sake of originality if they had cuts and you want to keep them I would have shorter cuts which don't quite reach the bend line and so would be less visible on the seen side and you would have less dimples and a more consistent fair curve. If I was producing a series of those I would laser cut a 3/8 thick hammer form plate and throw a 1/16 deeper flange which could then be ground back to the surface of the form plate for perfect flange depth all round.
@@del00ze I was just watching the Mule resonator builder talk about learning and he mentioned he always had wrinkles to deal with when bending over the edge if he didn't make the kerf cuts. I like the idea of not making them go up so far and I hadn't thought of adding the round over curve to a hammer plate, that's a great idea.
That little torch is clearly the wrong tool, all that steel is a huge heat sink. One pound cylinders would be the minimum imho, a twenty pound cylinder better yet.
Agreed, I use a 1 pound copper iron heated first by the torch. With the iron there is enough heat to sweat the solder into the tabs along the sides making for a strong bond with no chance of the solder joint cracking open in the future.
You never use muriatic acid on steel. Muriatic acid is just the name of the concentration of hydrochloric acid. Here's the problem, muriatic acid needs to be neutralized. Acid is not a flux. Your steel should have been heavier and it should have been TIG welded. Solder is soft and does not resonate. It is a deadening metal. This will greatly affect your tone. The steel body should be one piece after it's welded. Either using filler or forge welding with a TIG welder. This way the steel carries the residence. If you don't understand metals and welding and how to join metal you shouldn't be doing this project.
I can tig weld but that's not how Mule and others build them. The originals were all brass instruments and silver soldered. You mention a filler. What kind of filler? Thanks for the encouragement.
@@Ninety2guits When you join steel parts together with a non-ferrous metal, silver solder or bronze or tin solder, you lose your resonance between metals. They act as an insulator or a vibration damper. Your filler metal should be the same as what your construction is, steel for steel or aluminum for aluminum. Here's an example you can identify with. If you cut a tuning fork in half and solder it back together you've changed the dynamics of your resonance.
@@greggminkoff6733 Your tuning fork example is awesome, glad you mentioned that. If you were to put strings on a tuning fork it would be a very difficult instrument to make music on. The amount of resonance and ringing and frequencies would be nearly impossible to control, it would need some sort of dampening. I have given a lot of thought to welding one of these together but there must be a reason all the high quality resonators are soldered not welded. I think you nailed it with the tuning fork resonance. Think of a piano, it has a massive wooden sound board which seems like it should provide enough dampening to play music on it but it needs the assistance of a dampening pedal. If you have ever played a single cone resonator guitar you already know how hard it is to control all the resonance and frequencies that come out of it, it needs dampening to keep it under control. I always thought the reason these were made of brass or German silver and soldered together back in the 30's (and still to this day) was because that's how horns were made so somebody just applied that knowledge to a guitar body and put strings on it. I think somebody figured out these need some form of dampening and the solder helped. I have a feeling the cheap Chinese resonators are welded together but I'm not positive. I've played two of those cheap ones and hope it never happens again. Now I'm off to try and understand why muriatic acid shouldn't be used on steel to clean and etch the metal so the solder bonds better. It's a known practice amongst roofers so there must be something to it. Thanks for the discussion. 👍
@@Ninety2guits I'm a retired welder with over 60 years of shop experience dealing with metals and fabrication. I used to be a musician I had an early Martin D12-20. I've never seen how a National steel was put together. It would make sense to solder the joints rather than weld them. Too much heat when welding will warp and distort the metal. At that time when National was first making steel guitars, electric welders were very crude. A TIG welder would have been ideal but they too at that time had limited adjustments for the heat range and no controls for the frequency output. The new welders are awesome. If you were to use a TIG welder with a foot pedal, to control the heat range, you would be able to use a minimal amount of heat to weld the body together. I would go out on a limb to suggest you make a rectangular steel box, 8 x 10 x 2 inches with a 2" hole on one side, that has been TIG welded by yourself or a shop, as an experiment. I believe you might be pleasantly surprised by the results. If the welding is done correctly you should be able to smooth out the joined areas for a seamless look. Just a thought.
This series is the best thing I’ve seen on RUclips in a long time. There are so many pointless guitar build videos out there these days. (Thanks GGBO!🤦♂️) I feel like I’m actually learning something from these. Great presentation style too. It’s clear you’re in it for the right reasons not just an ego stroke. Thanks for sharing this!
Wow! I really appreciate that. Thank you.
I'm in my seventies and can"t play anything but you have inspired me to want to build one of these, having never even heard of them till tonight I think my son playing will enjoy it more than enough to bring me great pleasure as I listen, but my main purpose in commenting is that as an old mechanic I"ve done my fair share of soldering and I believe if you beg borrow or steal a "real soldering iron", one that doesn"t have a power lead and you use what was called a blow torch to heat the copper head stuck out on a steel rod with a wooden handle , the torch had a gun sight "v" at the front which the shaft of the soldering iron would sit in and a hook at the rear would hold the iron balanced while it re heated having been strategically placed to put the head directly in the flame of the torch, I will try to get a picture, old plumbers would use a soldering iron to solder a corrugated water tank as they did in australia and probably USA when Adam was a boy. ,you will find it transfers a steady heat to the solder and allows you to control the solder and it"s flow along the joint and therefore save you filing or excess solder removal. It does need to be continually sat back on its frame and reheated. A green tinge to the flame indicated it was at temperature. ps you would still need to contour the solder ( file it ) dave
Hi Dave, thanks for the detailed comment. "When Adam was boy" 🤣. Hopefully you have time to make it further into the video build series as I figure out the best way to build these. I have tried many options since the soldering iron with the cord, I have now settled on a propane torch that is working extremely well. I did this first build with a butane mini torch and it worked fine but it was slow. The new propane torch is much much better on the 2nd build and I think I get a better solder joint with it because it is hotter. Thanks for following along, really appreciate it. James
What an amazing feat of effort and research! Thank you so much for sharing your work with us.
My feeling (as a low tech metal fabricator) is you should raise the top out of the sides about the same distance as the thickness of the side plate; that way you can build up a solder joint "on top of the side", which you can sand to a rounded profile. Great job you're doing! Thanks a lot for sharing this :)
My brother who was a sheetmetal worker built his out of bell brass and TIG welded all joints and ground to a fine finish, his friend who had a custom guitar shop in the UK made the neck. It sounded awesome!
That sounds awesome. I see me doing a brass one soon.
When I weld on sheetmetal, I tack it slowly and skip around not welding on any area for more that a second or two. That helps me keep the warpage down.
Great Job I,ve built my own as well a Square hollowneck Hawaiian Tricone,in the same method that the Dopera,s had done according to letters from Don Young.Keep going with your first prototype!
Thanks. That's cool you've built your own, hopefully I can say the same soon. I'm putting the first (which is really the 2nd) prototype aside for now. The 3rd is coming along swimmingly tho.
Not your average guitar build video.
Liked and subscribed
Thank you for this video. I always wanted one of these
Awesome, thank you!
Nice! B is for Buid is the best channel ever!
Agreed. I've been known to binge B is for build content, I love his format and energy.
It’s a relic! 😂 don’t give up it’ll look great.
I agree….the top is way tooo thin…I own a 1931 National Triolian…I’m surprised at how thick the steel actually is,,,.no flex at all in it….hope that helps…
Yep that helps. I had concerns about the gauge steel as soon as I started cutting the f holes. Sometimes experience is the best teacher, I'm still not sure if the 20 gauge I'm using now is ideal or not.
Such a wealth of information! I'm planning to build one as well. Do happen to sell your plans/schematics? I got a friend with a plasma cutter, and I'm hoping that I can get them to make me a sort of kit.
Yes I can send you CAD plans. If you skip to build 2 there is a video where I talk about the CAD plans being available. Send me an email. Thanks.
large mass brass iron( the one that's heated by external source ) is the way to solder metal parts like this; steel, SS copper.... way less distortion, homogenous repeatable clean welds and it is much quicker.
I've seen people use those, they look good. Not sure where you get them and they look like they take up a fair amount of space. I'll see what I can learn about them. Thanks.
@@Ninety2guits eastwood used to have some for lead bodywork repair or a search under maple syrup transformation supplies
This is super cool! Are you using lead free solder? I can't imagine you would want lead on something that you touch a lot like a guitar.
Andmondson already said make it a relic. I think a little body filler or spot putty is within reason. Metal work is really flawless right out the gate. All that said I think it's coming along quite reasonably.
Thanks Dane, I had some of the same thoughts with body filler etc. I like relic's a lot, but the thing that makes relic's cool to me is that they were once perfect and then became a relic. I raise an eyebrow at things that are born as a relic Lol. I feel like this one served it's purpose and taught me a lot. Prototyping guitars is a difficult task, I remember my first Les Paul build... wowzers!
@@Ninety2guitsmy first post should have said never really flawless right out the gate. My first and last LP is the one in my avatar.
I never made a guitar but I done a lot of bodywork in steel and Aluminium. The cuts in the outer flange are not necessary and the flange could be shorter. The soldering should be done with a heavy iron and flow the solder to the iron which transfers to the steel for a near perfect capillaried filet of solder in the joint.
I agree the flange could be shorter, that's my next change. You think I could bend the edge over the form without the relief cuts? The originals have the relief cuts so I was just carrying on with that concept. Results have been good so far but I'm all ears if that can be done easier. With the laser cutting it's extremely simple to make the cuts and it's pretty flawless on the bend over. Thanks for the comments.
@@Ninety2guits I could definitely hammer dolly a flange without the cuts on such gentle curves especially if they were only say 3/8. and it would help the solder sup into the joint for which I would be using a heavy duty electric soldering iron. For the sake of originality if they had cuts and you want to keep them I would have shorter cuts which don't quite reach the bend line and so would be less visible on the seen side and you would have less dimples and a more consistent fair curve. If I was producing a series of those I would laser cut a 3/8 thick hammer form plate and throw a 1/16 deeper flange which could then be ground back to the surface of the form plate for perfect flange depth all round.
@@del00ze I was just watching the Mule resonator builder talk about learning and he mentioned he always had wrinkles to deal with when bending over the edge if he didn't make the kerf cuts. I like the idea of not making them go up so far and I hadn't thought of adding the round over curve to a hammer plate, that's a great idea.
What ga. steel are you using?
I can't recall on the first build, but I have since settled on 22ga steel for the few I built after this one.
That little torch is clearly the wrong tool, all that steel is a huge heat sink. One pound cylinders would be the minimum imho, a twenty pound cylinder better yet.
Tried that in episode 3, that little torch is perfect for me.
@@Ninety2guits It does look like a handy thing and it's pretty impressive that it can bring enough heat to solder that much steel.
Agreed, I use a 1 pound copper iron heated first by the torch. With the iron there is enough heat to sweat the solder into the tabs along the sides making for a strong bond with no chance of the solder joint cracking open in the future.
You never use muriatic acid on steel. Muriatic acid is just the name of the concentration of hydrochloric acid. Here's the problem, muriatic acid needs to be neutralized. Acid is not a flux.
Your steel should have been heavier and it should have been TIG welded. Solder is soft and does not resonate. It is a deadening metal. This will greatly affect your tone. The steel body should be one piece after it's welded. Either using filler or forge welding with a TIG welder. This way the steel carries the residence. If you don't understand metals and welding and how to join metal you shouldn't be doing this project.
I can tig weld but that's not how Mule and others build them. The originals were all brass instruments and silver soldered. You mention a filler. What kind of filler? Thanks for the encouragement.
@@Ninety2guits
When you join steel parts together with a non-ferrous metal, silver solder or bronze or tin solder, you lose your resonance between metals.
They act as an insulator or a vibration damper.
Your filler metal should be the same as what your construction is, steel for steel or aluminum for aluminum.
Here's an example you can identify with. If you cut a tuning fork in half and solder it back together you've changed the dynamics of your resonance.
@@greggminkoff6733 Your tuning fork example is awesome, glad you mentioned that. If you were to put strings on a tuning fork it would be a very difficult instrument to make music on. The amount of resonance and ringing and frequencies would be nearly impossible to control, it would need some sort of dampening. I have given a lot of thought to welding one of these together but there must be a reason all the high quality resonators are soldered not welded. I think you nailed it with the tuning fork resonance. Think of a piano, it has a massive wooden sound board which seems like it should provide enough dampening to play music on it but it needs the assistance of a dampening pedal. If you have ever played a single cone resonator guitar you already know how hard it is to control all the resonance and frequencies that come out of it, it needs dampening to keep it under control. I always thought the reason these were made of brass or German silver and soldered together back in the 30's (and still to this day) was because that's how horns were made so somebody just applied that knowledge to a guitar body and put strings on it. I think somebody figured out these need some form of dampening and the solder helped. I have a feeling the cheap Chinese resonators are welded together but I'm not positive. I've played two of those cheap ones and hope it never happens again. Now I'm off to try and understand why muriatic acid shouldn't be used on steel to clean and etch the metal so the solder bonds better. It's a known practice amongst roofers so there must be something to it. Thanks for the discussion. 👍
@@Ninety2guits
I'm a retired welder with over 60 years of shop experience dealing with metals and fabrication.
I used to be a musician I had an early Martin D12-20.
I've never seen how a National steel was put together. It would make sense to solder the joints rather than weld them. Too much heat when welding will warp and distort the metal. At that time when National was first making steel guitars, electric welders were very crude. A TIG welder would have been ideal but they too at that time had limited adjustments for the heat range and no controls for the frequency output. The new welders are awesome. If you were to use a TIG welder with a foot pedal, to control the heat range,
you would be able to use a minimal amount of heat to weld the body together. I would go out on a limb to suggest you make a rectangular steel box, 8 x 10 x 2 inches with a 2" hole on one side,
that has been TIG welded by yourself or a shop, as an experiment. I believe you might be pleasantly surprised by the results. If the welding is done correctly you should be able to smooth out the joined areas for a seamless look. Just a thought.
James, you have the patience of a saint. "you shouldn't be doing this project". LOL. @@Ninety2guits