This video shows why the M31s were retained in Finnish war reserve stocks until about 2005, whereas all reserve KP44s were melted down by the early 1990s. I recall hearing from older folks who used to live close to the border that when they had to evacuate in 1939 and again in 1944, they'd listen for "the song of Suomi"; as long as it could be heard over the din of war, they knew the Russians wouldn't be moving.
The Mannerheim cross reports where the Suomi is used are hardcore. Take for example Emil Pasanen: *During enemy breakthrough attempts in battle of Prääsä on Sep 8, 1941, he defended temporary positions alone when his comrades around him were dead or wounded, and repelled attack of about 200 men, killing estimately 120 of them from his foxhole with Suomi SMG.*
@@Leonidae PeRRRRkele! is here. Grandsons and great grandsons might be quite bit softer than farmers working physically 10 hours every day of year, every year of their life. So is enemy. The bad attitude and hate is exactly same as 1939.
The original Mannerheim cross report actually goes like this: "”Ylipäällikkö on pvm:llä 26.9.41 nimittänyt Vapaudenristin 2. luokan Mannerheim-ristin ritariksi sotamies Emil Pasasen, joka [Suvilahden] taistelussa 21.8.41 konepistoolilla tuhosi kymmeniä vihollisia näiden juostessa taloista ulos suorasuuntaustykin ajamina ja [Jessoilan] taistelussa 27.8.41 valtasi konepistoolia käyttäen erään toverin kanssa tärkeän sillanpääasemakukkulan ja piti sen yksin hallussaan toverin kaaduttuakin, kunnes sai apua omilta joukoilta sekä [Prääsän] taistelussa 8.9.41 ratkaisukohdassa vihollisen läpimurtoyrityksen aikana esti, tovereiden vieressä tultua taistelukyvyttömiksi, yksin konepistooli aseenaan kaksisataa-miehisen vihollisen tunkeutumisen tilapäiseen puolustusasemaan siten ratkaisevasti vaikuttaen vihollisen hyökkäyksen epäonnistumiseen." Not sure if Google Translate will work, but your comment contains quite bit of misinformation.
@Eye Ore That's sort of a loaded question (see what I did there?) - what differentiates a SMG from other "classes" of guns is that they fire pistol-caliber cartridges...so the answer to your question is technically just "yes." XD
No worries; sorry if my response sounded overly jerk-ish, it wasn't the intent. That aside, the Kp44 is based on the Soviet PPS-43, which fires 7.62x25, so it isn't that far out of the realm of possibility to wonder if either of these fired a wimpier Soviet round. :)
The 7.62x25 Tokarev is hardly a wimpier round... if you said 7.63x25 Mauser, I'd agree with you. Amazing what difference a hot load makes to performance.
Long range patrols behind russian lines caused a lot of casualties to pursuing forces with these things. Usually 80 - 100 % of the patrol was armed with these and the rest with rifles to maximize firepower for the group. Imagine being ambushed with 15 of these spraying at you out of nowhere.
Reading thuis I wonder what the translation in Russian is for: "Comrade, I need a fresh pair of pants." I bet Russian troops who survived and those who also surrendered spoke these words
I gotta say, the sound the 31 makes fills me with movie-induced patriotism. I gotta watch Winter War tv-series, again, one of these day. And The Unknown Soldier. I'm a mannequin for Tikkakoski....
It does have a very distinct sound. Reminded me of the American WW2 veterans who saiy they still shit their proverbial pants when they hear the sound of German MG-42
kanklez Literally "Winter War", based on a book by the same name. It's a pretty good series in my opinion. If one has any interest in different fronts of WWII, certainly, I'd recommend it.
It's actually a movie that was once chopped to pieces for tv. I'd recommend it. It is a good movie although the music is a little on the bleak and repetitive side. You can watch it here www.dailymotion.com/video/x3qol47
I've been waiting this video a while. I'm always wanted to hear honest review from gun pros without a fear of (finnish) bias. This video is youtube gold.
Agreed. My opinion Suomi, Beretta 38 and M3 were three top smg's of WW2 but in what order? Suomi was the earliest of three and M3 price-quality level was the best
The ONLY thing I don't like about these videos is that Ian and Karl are having all the fun while I sit here with an itchy trigger finger and no way to scratch it. Even so, the sound of full auto is music to my ears! All you guys should search the internet for some DVD's. There was a very interesting historical documentary that was made about the Winter War several years ago which I thought was very well done, and of course, also get the movie TALVISOTA. (Be sure to get the extended unedited version.) Some of the battle scenes are truly cataclysmic. The Winter War was a Zombie Apocalypse!
You bring up an interesting point on fire rate that I often mention. Think of recoil/muzzle rise as a sine curve, in other words it goes up and comes down repeatedly. Having a high rate of fire getting multiple rounds on a single up motion can be controllable. Also having a slow rate of fire where each round waits until the muzzle rises and dips again is controllable. The worst scenario is in the middle of those where a round is fired at the apex of the curve each time.
Even if its my oppinion alone It think M31 is best sounding SMG. Once upon time conscripts had M31,M39 an Rk62 now they just carry Rk and ocasional FN as sidearm!
KP44 did not replace The Suomi. Only the first order of 10000 were made and even that after the ear in 1945. Suomi remained in the reserve arsenal until the mid 90s. When I was in the army in the mid 80s we were trained for it and this was not to give some historic perspective.
Do you have a problem with English or are you trolling? He wasn't referring to KP44 replacing M31 in armories. Of course older guns are kept in reserves. He meant the KP44 replaced the M31 as the gun being manufactured.
Great timing for this video guys. I bought an M31 Suomi, Canadian version, yesterday. It'll take a week to land at my door and I've been searching for info. Although semi-auto I'm looking forward to hitting some steel with it.
Prepare to be disspointed, i have one of the semi auto converted M31s, the trigger sucks, they are unreliable and they are generally inaccurate, and when this thing is pushing 12 pounds, it's hard to even find fun in the thing as anything other then a wall hanger. Open bolt guns converted to closed bolt generally are this way.
The previous owner claimed he had no problems but I always take those claims with a grain of salt. Should be nothing a little smithing can't over come if there are any issues. I do expect a heavy, creepy trigger.
That Suomi is a beast of a gun! The question of economics makes sense... But I would almost argue that it would have been better to keep the M31 instead of adopting the KP44, given the difference in quality.
Very nice. Good illustration of the differences. Looks like the 31has it all. Good point about sweet spots in the rate of fire. Hadn't given that much thought; i figured it was dependent on the rate of fire itself. Great video as always. Thank you
In the 80s I read about a UK firearms designer who added an electronic delay mechanism to some automatic weapons to find their resonant firing rate for maximum control-ability ("gently rocks in your hand" was how the end result was described). I wonder if the compressing air issue in the rear receiver on the M31 might offer another way to attain that, with a valve altering the rate of fire. It's already controllable, but for another design, perhaps, although a sealing system might be required owing to the looser tolerances in most guns.
Hey. When I in the 60s, I completed my military service. These submachine guns were in use, they were practiced with. Nowadays, I have had opportunities to shoot these guns in various competitions, they syil hit wel, even though my eye is nod good. Good clear video. Many thanks.
I'm late commenting, but I played the game for a few weeks, and I kind of remember using the gun with a drum mag. EDIT: Just checked. It was an "extended magazine", not a drum mag.
@@coolsenjoyer in the game it has other features that make it special. Its a game after all, not a simulation. Also a drum with 70+ rounds would be overpowered in the game.
@@kingofhogwarts9499 I have no issue with the lack of drum magazine, and I actually kinda prefer the coffin mag, it's more unique (even if it kida sucked in real life). My issue is that they took one of, if not the most, controllable SMG of WWII and made it pretty much the least controllable SMG in the game. Like I understand you can't depict weapons 100% accurately in games for balance reason, but it makes no sense to make it opposite of what it was IRL
My Grandfather fought the Russians for the duration of the war up to mid 1944 when he was wounded by a Shell Burst ! Love the Finnish uniforms ! Great vid to honour the Sisu of the Finnish Army !!
It would be interesting to see handling wise how the Swedish Version of the M31 (Kpist m/37 for the Version in 9x20 mm Browning Long and Kpist m/37-39 for the 9x19 mm version that became standard) It was built in Sweden under license (around 35,000 were built in Sweden by Husqvarna) and had some changes including a shorter barrel. This results in the gun being lighter (at around 3.9Kg as compared to 4.6-4.8 of the M31) and easier to handle in cramped spaces as it was noticeably shorter, but it would be interesting to know what kind of impact this had on its shooting characteristics (Mainly how Accuracy and controllability was affected).
There was a bunker version of Suomi, with pistol (sort of) grip, but no actual stock at all. Muzzle was a bit funny, kind of flattened pipe. Google "m31 korsu"
Waingro: Real tight crew, huh? Michael: Real tight. Waingro: Yeah if this works, I'd consider going again, you know. Michael: Yeah, stop talking, okay, slick?
@@dickles3538 the KP-44 is basically the PPS-43 but chambered for 9mm. The Soviets "Borrowed" the KP-31 Drum Magazine and the Finns "Borrowed" the PPS-43 design but made it to use KP-31 Magazines.
The one of the famous submachine gun. And I wish if Finland keep produced the Kp-44 submachine gun after the war until 1960s when they start to produced the RK-60 and RK-62 assault rifle.
I think that the only WW2 smg close to the M31 Suomi in terms of overall design, craftmanship and effectiveness is the italian Beretta MAB-38A. The MAB doesn't have drums, but the rate of fire is slower, and since the gun is not lightweight, it doesn't jump around. Other than that, they have a lot of similarities: tangent rear sight, barrel jacket with muzzle compensator, wooden rifle-like stock, machined receiver, same barrel lenght, non-reciprocating charging handle.
So how does it compare to the MP41? The MP40 has that metal stock. It seems to be quite controllable too, just not the most comfortable. The MP41 however with the MP28 wooden stock makes you wonder.
Heard that around 30 men equipped mostly with Suomi kp could slaughter a company (120-150) of enemies in minutes in an open snow field. The enemy couldn't run in the snow. So fast the enemy could barely return the fire, and then so rarely killed any of the ambushers. Of course it had to be a could ambush spot, didn't always happen so cleanly. But with that rate of fire of the Suomi kp, and multible shooters, it was doable with a shock start. Might be 30-40 enemies down right after the trigger push and then just press on to the closest and most active looking enemies, and soon it was the last 50 left who were beginning to find cover, but too late. Then the last 20 and you might get some own casualties with these last 50 enemies One guy has even recorded having done it alone, when he shot from cover in the forest edge, and the enemy company came in a line through thick snow. The leader of the column trampled the path, so they couldn't run anywhere, and walked dead on towards the ambush. So at first only a few guys could aim the shooter., and they were the first targets. The shooter had multiple magazines that take 70 rounds, but maybe 30-50 rounds was a more realistic way to fill the drums, the full drum wasn't that reliable. And he did have one guy to load the drums, or was there actually more than one loader: slow job to fill the drum with 30 9mm rounds. He did get a scratch in the head, shot by one enemy who had find a bit of cover, and so was unconscience for a few seconds. But he came around again, and continued shooting until he had mowed down the whole company. They made a scene of it to a movie called Tuntematon Sotilas (Unknown Soldier), based on a book with the same name (by the author Väinö Linna). But the scene is based on a recorded war incident - not just in the book. Only the name of the soldier was changed, like all the names in the company where the author had served. There are some artistic liberties in the book of course, but all its battle scenes happened to someone in the company, or who faught alongside them. For example an AT trooper was hit in a attle scene in the book, and one of the ncos in the author's company took his satchel charge designed against tanks. In the book he goes and blows the tank, in reality it was the AT nco himself who went and destroyed the tank. Maybe he was just temporarily pinned down, or wounded only very lightly. So the writer added a little drama with the wounding, when in reality the AT trooper was a pro enough not to expose himself much, and did de job.
@9:05 Imagine yourself standing in a snow-covered trench in the middle of a freezing winter. A horde of Russians wearing heavy coats and budyonovkas are coming at you. A literal wall of meat. All very poorly trained and slightly drunk. Screaming and running at you. Then you cut them down with your Suomi.
I always thought the MP40/41 was the easiest and most controllable SMG of WW2..according to a lot of people who also shot them. Seems... I was wrong. Nice video as always!
During military service i shot 20 shots with the Suomi at a paper target, I got 34 hits. The gents to the left and right of me had quite a lot less hits.....
Great video guys. I like your uniforms that go with your fine weapons. I have fired the Suomi, and the PPS 43. They are really fine weapons. You both have great firing tecnique. I also like the M3 and especially the M3 A-1 more than the Thompson. It is a very under appreciated SMG. However a correctly trained soldier with the M3 or M3 A-1 can really show that it's a myth to call the M3 M3 A-1 a bad SMG. The Finnish M31 certainly compets wel not only as the most controllable SMG of WW-2, but stands up well today to many newer SMG's. However, while not as good as the M31, the KP44 aint bad either.
Ian and Karl a question for you guys - you talked a lot about "quality" in this video being a key determinant between the M31 and the KP44 though the effectiveness of the weapons when compared seems to be about "physics-induced" properties - the overall effect of (1) size, mass, orientation and action of the bolt when firing; (2) resultant rate of fire; (3) overall layout of the weapon and overall weapon mass etc. Would the Finns have been onto a real winner if they'd designed and built a cheap stamped gun that retained those key attributes of the M31 but did away with the quality of manufacture ie milled receiver, wooden furniture etc? Are there other examples from WWII or after that you could cite that get at what I'm talking about? The Uzi springs to mind I guess.
Awesome video, guys. Suomi's or their parts were commonly floating around, not too long ago; dunno what the sitch is, now. (Shucks, I always liked the Thompson just fine! Never tried shooting one at 100 yards, though, to be honest.)
Man, I can just imagine the psychological impact of the M31 (and the PPSh-41 for that matter) of an entire company of guys with those blazing away and you have a Mosin or a K98. The sound alone would be terrifying.
About controllability of the Suomi, in the film The Unknown Soldier, Rokka wipes out an entire platoon with his SMG. He's about 150 meters out and from a good vantage point watch?v=ncpHXvpma8o the scene was based on a true engagement.
GeneralAdvance Doesn't matter how fit you are, a decent 7 pound gun is easier to carry than a great 11 pound one. Makes room for more ammunition for the same weight too.
I have done those marches, i'd have taken the m31 over a kp44, yes the weight is an annoyance, but so is a plate over your chest and i guaruntee you'd still take that
Lauri Törni (Larry Thorne) supposedly broke several M31 by cracking the skull of soviets after he run out of ammo.Taking into account the sturdyness and weight of the m31 this seems incredible
Course Finland's post-WWII armed forces only ever had something like 10k pelti-kp/44s... Would you rather have a) kp m/31, or b) kp/44, or c) Sten Mk.II! Cool video.
This maybe a stupid question but, do you think that the wood stock absorbed some of the recoil? I noticed that there appeared to be more recoil transfer from the folding stock into their shoulders.
The part you said a higher rate of fire makes a gun more controllable... I can't agree more. Kinda like if you spin something around a point other than its center of mass, the faster you spin, the more stable the thing will be.
I agree. When ROF is so high that the recoil force is too high for the shooter to handle, a high ROF will result in bad stability, however when kept under a certain threshold, the faster the ROF the better the stability.
Before you can say the Finnish M31 is the best Machine gun made in world war 2 you should test the Owen machine gun that was made in Australia you can drop it in mud , pick it up shake it and fire it without it stopping
But there is more to a gun than just reliability. Weight, bullet accuracy, sights, stopping power, ergonomics etc. I haven't seen the video you talk about (I'll go and see it next), just wanted to mention these. Sidenote: I don't think there ever will be one single best gun suited for every single occasion. There will always be different situations, missions, battles, weathers and terrains where different guns have differing pros and cons and the suitability in those situations accounts more than one really good feature.
Now this video is a bit old by now. But I wonder if the controlability has more to do with the rate of fire, recoil impulse and the the big heavy bolt smacking the gun forward being more or less accidentally matched to keep the gun steady. And not just the rate of fire.
Ambush having high ground, 5 guys spray drum or two, flee skiing downhill - few guys getting advantage of ambush and favorable ground can destroy even a company like viljam pylkäs in ambush with kp31, destroyed 80 men
I've heard that the swedish K is a very smooth gun to fire, and it has the same 9mm chambering, similar stamped metal construction, and a similar, if not identical, rate of fire to the kp44. Wondering if that is actually true and if it is then why?
The Swedish K is very smooth firing, but it is a pound or so heavier than the KP44 which may not sound like much, but for guns that have the CG forward of the pistol grip, that makes a big difference. The Swedish K also has a heavier bolt and I believe it does not come fully into contact with the back of the receiver. The KP-44 does making the action a bit more harsh.
This video shows why the M31s were retained in Finnish war reserve stocks until about 2005, whereas all reserve KP44s were melted down by the early 1990s.
I recall hearing from older folks who used to live close to the border that when they had to evacuate in 1939 and again in 1944, they'd listen for "the song of Suomi"; as long as it could be heard over the din of war, they knew the Russians wouldn't be moving.
The Mannerheim cross reports where the Suomi is used are hardcore. Take for example Emil Pasanen:
*During enemy breakthrough attempts in battle of Prääsä on Sep 8, 1941, he defended temporary positions alone when his comrades around him were dead or wounded, and repelled attack of about 200 men, killing estimately 120 of them from his foxhole with Suomi SMG.*
*Perkele intensifies*
@@Leonidae PeRRRRkele! is here. Grandsons and great grandsons might be quite bit softer than farmers working physically 10 hours every day of year, every year of their life. So is enemy. The bad attitude and hate is exactly same as 1939.
The original Mannerheim cross report actually goes like this:
"”Ylipäällikkö on pvm:llä 26.9.41 nimittänyt Vapaudenristin 2. luokan Mannerheim-ristin ritariksi sotamies Emil Pasasen, joka [Suvilahden] taistelussa 21.8.41 konepistoolilla tuhosi kymmeniä vihollisia näiden juostessa taloista ulos suorasuuntaustykin ajamina ja [Jessoilan] taistelussa 27.8.41 valtasi konepistoolia käyttäen erään toverin kanssa tärkeän sillanpääasemakukkulan ja piti sen yksin hallussaan toverin kaaduttuakin, kunnes sai apua omilta joukoilta sekä [Prääsän] taistelussa 8.9.41 ratkaisukohdassa vihollisen läpimurtoyrityksen aikana esti, tovereiden vieressä tultua taistelukyvyttömiksi, yksin konepistooli aseenaan kaksisataa-miehisen vihollisen tunkeutumisen tilapäiseen puolustusasemaan siten ratkaisevasti vaikuttaen vihollisen hyökkäyksen epäonnistumiseen."
Not sure if Google Translate will work, but your comment contains quite bit of misinformation.
watching Karl soak up that recoil is like watching a work of art
Exactly my thoughts, that looked very impressive.
The fact that the Suomi weighs around 11 pounds, has a muzzle brake and is only firing 9x19 doesn't hurt, either. ;D
@Eye Ore That's sort of a loaded question (see what I did there?) - what differentiates a SMG from other "classes" of guns is that they fire pistol-caliber cartridges...so the answer to your question is technically just "yes." XD
No worries; sorry if my response sounded overly jerk-ish, it wasn't the intent. That aside, the Kp44 is based on the Soviet PPS-43, which fires 7.62x25, so it isn't that far out of the realm of possibility to wonder if either of these fired a wimpier Soviet round. :)
The 7.62x25 Tokarev is hardly a wimpier round... if you said 7.63x25 Mauser, I'd agree with you. Amazing what difference a hot load makes to performance.
Long range patrols behind russian lines caused a lot of casualties to pursuing forces with these things. Usually 80 - 100 % of the patrol was armed with these and the rest with rifles to maximize firepower for the group. Imagine being ambushed with 15 of these spraying at you out of nowhere.
Reading thuis I wonder what the translation in Russian is for: "Comrade, I need a fresh pair of pants." I bet Russian troops who survived and those who also surrendered spoke these words
And imagne also the firepower for the group, because many finnish soldier used the russian PPSH 41 !
Especially since iirc the soviets kinda didn't have a lot of submachine guns in 1939-40
Can I have a source?
@@luckyxiong5766 I won't be going to the library for this, sorry. So: books on the subject.
Our national anthem should have an intro with some Suomi fire. And maybe rally car exhaust popping. A loud Perkele. Patriotic stuff like that.
KP-31 was very deadly when ambushing, after you heard the first 10 shots half of your platoon were already dead.
any gun is deadly at ambushing lol
Vihdoin, PERKELE!
I gotta say, the sound the 31 makes fills me with movie-induced patriotism. I gotta watch Winter War tv-series, again, one of these day. And The Unknown Soldier. I'm a mannequin for Tikkakoski....
It does have a very distinct sound. Reminded me of the American WW2 veterans who saiy they still shit their proverbial pants when they hear the sound of German MG-42
What's the name of the winter war tv series and would you recommend it for foreigners?
kanklez Literally "Winter War", based on a book by the same name. It's a pretty good series in my opinion. If one has any interest in different fronts of WWII, certainly, I'd recommend it.
It's actually a movie that was once chopped to pieces for tv. I'd recommend it. It is a good movie although the music is a little on the bleak and repetitive side. You can watch it here www.dailymotion.com/video/x3qol47
Charmo Nichander War tends to be bleak and repetitive. I seem to recall there's quite a bit of extra in the series than there was in the movie.
I've been waiting this video a while. I'm always wanted to hear honest review from gun pros without a fear of (finnish) bias. This video is youtube gold.
Should do a comparison between the M31 and Beretta 38.
Kennard Lang This! Ian and Karl, this is the test you need to do!
Agreed. My opinion Suomi, Beretta 38 and M3 were three top smg's of WW2 but in what order? Suomi was the earliest of three and M3 price-quality level was the best
I have shoot those and many others too. Suomi is best. If someday got to go real shootings I select Suomi., even it is heawy.
I'd love to see this put against modern high end smgs in an "old premium vs new premium" 2 gun match.
What gun would you choose for the modern representative?
The ONLY thing I don't like about these videos is that Ian and Karl are having all
the fun while I sit here with an itchy trigger finger and no way to scratch it. Even so,
the sound of full auto is music to my ears!
All you guys should search the internet for some DVD's. There was a very interesting
historical documentary that was made about the Winter War several years ago which
I thought was very well done, and of course, also get the movie TALVISOTA. (Be sure to
get the extended unedited version.) Some of the battle scenes are truly cataclysmic.
The Winter War was a Zombie Apocalypse!
I believe that itchy trigger finger can be successfully treated with cortisone cream.;-)
You bring up an interesting point on fire rate that I often mention. Think of recoil/muzzle rise as a sine curve, in other words it goes up and comes down repeatedly. Having a high rate of fire getting multiple rounds on a single up motion can be controllable. Also having a slow rate of fire where each round waits until the muzzle rises and dips again is controllable. The worst scenario is in the middle of those where a round is fired at the apex of the curve each time.
Even if its my oppinion alone It think M31 is best sounding SMG. Once upon time conscripts had M31,M39 an Rk62 now they just carry Rk and ocasional FN as sidearm!
KP44 did not replace The Suomi. Only the first order of 10000 were made and even that after the ear in 1945. Suomi remained in the reserve arsenal until the mid 90s. When I was in the army in the mid 80s we were trained for it and this was not to give some historic perspective.
Do you have a problem with English or are you trolling? He wasn't referring to KP44 replacing M31 in armories. Of course older guns are kept in reserves. He meant the KP44 replaced the M31 as the gun being manufactured.
Great timing for this video guys. I bought an M31 Suomi, Canadian version, yesterday. It'll take a week to land at my door and I've been searching for info. Although semi-auto I'm looking forward to hitting some steel with it.
Prepare to be disspointed, i have one of the semi auto converted M31s, the trigger sucks, they are unreliable and they are generally inaccurate, and when this thing is pushing 12 pounds, it's hard to even find fun in the thing as anything other then a wall hanger.
Open bolt guns converted to closed bolt generally are this way.
The previous owner claimed he had no problems but I always take those claims with a grain of salt. Should be nothing a little smithing can't over come if there are any issues. I do expect a heavy, creepy trigger.
@@scottyr9445any updates on the KP you bought?
That Suomi is a beast of a gun!
The question of economics makes sense... But I would almost argue that it would have been better to keep the M31 instead of adopting the KP44, given the difference in quality.
Very nice. Good illustration of the differences. Looks like the 31has it all. Good point about sweet spots in the rate of fire. Hadn't given that much thought; i figured it was dependent on the rate of fire itself. Great video as always. Thank you
In the 80s I read about a UK firearms designer who added an electronic delay mechanism to some automatic weapons to find their resonant firing rate for maximum control-ability ("gently rocks in your hand" was how the end result was described). I wonder if the compressing air issue in the rear receiver on the M31 might offer another way to attain that, with a valve altering the rate of fire. It's already controllable, but for another design, perhaps, although a sealing system might be required owing to the looser tolerances in most guns.
Hey. When I in the 60s, I completed my military service. These submachine guns were in use, they were practiced with. Nowadays, I have had opportunities to shoot these guns in various competitions, they syil hit wel, even though my eye is nod good. Good clear video. Many thanks.
The Finns would place their Right thumb on the back of the end-cap of the 31 to maintain even more sustained control when firing.
I'm disappointed that BF5 doesn't have drum mag for KP31.
I'm late commenting, but I played the game for a few weeks, and I kind of remember using the gun with a drum mag.
EDIT: Just checked. It was an "extended magazine", not a drum mag.
And it isn't controllable as it is in real life😑
@@juliushakala5148 Makes me wonder why even bother putting the gun in the game if you take away the one thing that makes it truly special.
@@coolsenjoyer in the game it has other features that make it special. Its a game after all, not a simulation. Also a drum with 70+ rounds would be overpowered in the game.
@@kingofhogwarts9499 I have no issue with the lack of drum magazine, and I actually kinda prefer the coffin mag, it's more unique (even if it kida sucked in real life). My issue is that they took one of, if not the most, controllable SMG of WWII and made it pretty much the least controllable SMG in the game. Like I understand you can't depict weapons 100% accurately in games for balance reason, but it makes no sense to make it opposite of what it was IRL
Exceedingly cool to see these two guns in action. Nicely done.
My Grandfather fought the Russians for the duration of the war up to mid 1944 when he was wounded by a Shell Burst !
Love the Finnish uniforms ! Great vid to honour the Sisu of the Finnish Army !!
Cool beans! Thanks guys, I really enjoyed this one!
Without the glases and the ear protection, Karl looks like a finnish Soldier, Ian need's a haircut!
With that beard he looks like a member of käpykaarti.
It would be interesting to see handling wise how the Swedish Version of the M31
(Kpist m/37 for the Version in 9x20 mm Browning Long and
Kpist m/37-39 for the 9x19 mm version that became standard)
It was built in Sweden under license (around 35,000 were built in Sweden by Husqvarna)
and had some changes including a shorter barrel.
This results in the gun being lighter (at around 3.9Kg as compared to 4.6-4.8 of the M31) and easier to handle in cramped spaces as it was noticeably shorter,
but it would be interesting to know what kind of impact this had on its shooting characteristics
(Mainly how Accuracy and controllability was affected).
I love how you went to Finland/ got someone from Finland
(I hear finnish in the background)
Yeah a pistol grip would be great, but, what if it could take Glock mags?
There was a bunker version of Suomi, with pistol (sort of) grip, but no actual stock at all. Muzzle was a bit funny, kind of flattened pipe. Google "m31 korsu"
"That's pretty slick..."
Waingro:
Real tight crew, huh?
Michael:
Real tight.
Waingro:
Yeah if this works, I'd consider going again, you know.
Michael:
Yeah, stop talking, okay, slick?
the russians copied parts of the M31
and the fins copied parts of the PPS43
it's like a symbiosis between those 2 nations
TheTeeWorldsfreak
Soviets didn't copy any parts from the KP/-31
They only copied Finnish magazines
redneck96100 And didn't even do that properly.
TheTeeWorldsfreak the Finnish gun was produced first so how did the Finns copy it XD ??? But Finns did copy it from mp 18 Bergmann
@@dickles3538 the KP-44 is basically the PPS-43 but chambered for 9mm. The Soviets "Borrowed" the KP-31 Drum Magazine and the Finns "Borrowed" the PPS-43 design but made it to use KP-31 Magazines.
@@redneck96100 isnt the magazine the most important PART of the gun?
You have to feel it to believe it. And you just made my day, or the week, to be exact. Thanks guys!
Love my Suomi M31!
Just gorgeous!
Great vid! Now compare the Suomi vs Beretta MAB
The one of the famous submachine gun. And I wish if Finland keep produced the Kp-44 submachine gun after the war until 1960s when they start to produced the RK-60 and RK-62 assault rifle.
I think that the only WW2 smg close to the M31 Suomi in terms of overall design, craftmanship and effectiveness is the italian Beretta MAB-38A. The MAB doesn't have drums, but the rate of fire is slower, and since the gun is not lightweight, it doesn't jump around. Other than that, they have a lot of similarities: tangent rear sight, barrel jacket with muzzle compensator, wooden rifle-like stock, machined receiver, same barrel lenght, non-reciprocating charging handle.
So how does it compare to the MP41? The MP40 has that metal stock. It seems to be quite controllable too, just not the most comfortable. The MP41 however with the MP28 wooden stock makes you wonder.
Want a M31 Suomi now...
When are you guys going to visit us again here in Finland? I'd love to meet you guys! Love all your videos! Good stuff!
Heard that around 30 men equipped mostly with Suomi kp could slaughter a company (120-150) of enemies in minutes in an open snow field. The enemy couldn't run in the snow. So fast the enemy could barely return the fire, and then so rarely killed any of the ambushers. Of course it had to be a could ambush spot, didn't always happen so cleanly. But with that rate of fire of the Suomi kp, and multible shooters, it was doable with a shock start. Might be 30-40 enemies down right after the trigger push and then just press on to the closest and most active looking enemies, and soon it was the last 50 left who were beginning to find cover, but too late. Then the last 20 and you might get some own casualties with these last 50 enemies
One guy has even recorded having done it alone, when he shot from cover in the forest edge, and the enemy company came in a line through thick snow. The leader of the column trampled the path, so they couldn't run anywhere, and walked dead on towards the ambush. So at first only a few guys could aim the shooter., and they were the first targets.
The shooter had multiple magazines that take 70 rounds, but maybe 30-50 rounds was a more realistic way to fill the drums, the full drum wasn't that reliable. And he did have one guy to load the drums, or was there actually more than one loader: slow job to fill the drum with 30 9mm rounds.
He did get a scratch in the head, shot by one enemy who had find a bit of cover, and so was unconscience for a few seconds. But he came around again, and continued shooting until he had mowed down the whole company.
They made a scene of it to a movie called Tuntematon Sotilas (Unknown Soldier), based on a book with the same name (by the author Väinö Linna). But the scene is based on a recorded war incident - not just in the book. Only the name of the soldier was changed, like all the names in the company where the author had served. There are some artistic liberties in the book of course, but all its battle scenes happened to someone in the company, or who faught alongside them.
For example an AT trooper was hit in a attle scene in the book, and one of the ncos in the author's company took his satchel charge designed against tanks. In the book he goes and blows the tank, in reality it was the AT nco himself who went and destroyed the tank. Maybe he was just temporarily pinned down, or wounded only very lightly. So the writer added a little drama with the wounding, when in reality the AT trooper was a pro enough not to expose himself much, and did de job.
timomastosalo You do not need 30 men.
All you need is Viljam Pylkäs.
@9:05 Imagine yourself standing in a snow-covered trench in the middle of a freezing winter. A horde of Russians wearing heavy coats and budyonovkas are coming at you. A literal wall of meat. All very poorly trained and slightly drunk. Screaming and running at you. Then you cut them down with your Suomi.
m-31 was also called sawing machine, because of its sound when firing.
Now we need PPSh-41 vs PPS-43 video :)
Huge rate of fire difference. Awesome video
Please repeat this video, but in the winter + ski's.
Fantastic video guys! Gotta love the uniforms 😁
I always thought the MP40/41 was the easiest and most controllable SMG of WW2..according to a lot of people who also shot them. Seems... I was wrong. Nice video as always!
I'm curious how they compare to the Czech ZK 383. That was a thing of beauty
would love to see a video covering the MP69 and MP81 from Austria
During military service i shot 20 shots with the Suomi at a paper target, I got 34 hits. The gents to the left and right of me had quite a lot less hits.....
Great video guys. I like your uniforms that go with your fine weapons. I have fired the Suomi, and the PPS 43. They are really fine weapons. You both have great firing tecnique. I also like the M3 and especially the M3 A-1 more than the Thompson. It is a very under appreciated SMG. However a correctly trained soldier with the M3 or M3 A-1 can really show that it's a myth to call the M3 M3 A-1 a bad SMG. The Finnish M31 certainly compets wel not only as the most controllable SMG of WW-2, but stands up well today to many newer SMG's. However, while not as good as the M31, the KP44 aint bad either.
That KP 44 earned the nick name "Pelti-Heikki", "The Tin - Henry".
You should do a revisit during winter and go check out a nice gun event Tamarms, i think it is in february...
Polacy przejmują filmik!
Żartuję... ale ciekawe czy ktoś mówiący po Polsku też ogląda ten fajny kanał? :-)
the M31 doesn't even look like it has recoil more that Ian is moving the gun to make it look like it has :O
Ian and Karl a question for you guys - you talked a lot about "quality" in this video being a key determinant between the M31 and the KP44 though the effectiveness of the weapons when compared seems to be about "physics-induced" properties - the overall effect of (1) size, mass, orientation and action of the bolt when firing; (2) resultant rate of fire; (3) overall layout of the weapon and overall weapon mass etc. Would the Finns have been onto a real winner if they'd designed and built a cheap stamped gun that retained those key attributes of the M31 but did away with the quality of manufacture ie milled receiver, wooden furniture etc? Are there other examples from WWII or after that you could cite that get at what I'm talking about? The Uzi springs to mind I guess.
Awesome video, guys. Suomi's or their parts were commonly floating around, not too long ago; dunno what the sitch is, now. (Shucks, I always liked the Thompson just fine! Never tried shooting one at 100 yards, though, to be honest.)
Man, I can just imagine the psychological impact of the M31 (and the PPSh-41 for that matter) of an entire company of guys with those blazing away and you have a Mosin or a K98. The sound alone would be terrifying.
About controllability of the Suomi, in the film The Unknown Soldier, Rokka wipes out an entire platoon with his SMG. He's about 150 meters out and from a good vantage point watch?v=ncpHXvpma8o
the scene was based on a true engagement.
Yeah, a man named Viljam Pylkäs was in same company as author of the book Unknown soldier. He single-handed killed 83 Russians with his M31
lets see the M31 vs the PPsH 41
m31 easy win
that m31 has a nice ROF and looks super controllable
Awesome gun!
Honestly I'd rather have the KP44 if I had to cover great distances on foot.
Good thing there is choice suited for both situation. Well, finnish didn't really had as KP44 came so late into play.. But you know what i mean :)
Only pussies whine about weight.Real men carry around a 5kg killing machine.
If you're going to war you should do it physically fit enough to carry the best gun you can get
GeneralAdvance Doesn't matter how fit you are, a decent 7 pound gun is easier to carry than a great 11 pound one. Makes room for more ammunition for the same weight too.
I have done those marches, i'd have taken the m31 over a kp44, yes the weight is an annoyance, but so is a plate over your chest and i guaruntee you'd still take that
What was Karl saying at 1:30-35 that seemed to get cut off?
Lauri Törni (Larry Thorne) supposedly broke several M31 by cracking the skull of soviets after he run out of ammo.Taking into account the sturdyness and weight of the m31 this seems incredible
Course Finland's post-WWII armed forces only ever had something like 10k pelti-kp/44s... Would you rather have a) kp m/31, or b) kp/44, or c) Sten Mk.II! Cool video.
Noniin siinäs kuulitte,paras on paras.
Mitä :)
Can you tell Ian to do a video on the Pyrkal LMG?
I once got to shoot the M31 Suomi while I in served in Finnish Army in 1987-88. I liked it immediately. The sound was nice, too.
have you heard of Sven hansel's series of books he swore by finish weapons and finish gear
Damn!
I knew it was good, but I didn't know it was THAT good! Perkele!
gogo Finland!!
Questions about ww2 SMG Drum mags, as of now i dont think i ever seen one with malfunction. Or is it just a youtube thing?
This maybe a stupid question but, do you think that the wood stock absorbed some of the recoil? I noticed that there appeared to be more recoil transfer from the folding stock into their shoulders.
The part you said a higher rate of fire makes a gun more controllable... I can't agree more. Kinda like if you spin something around a point other than its center of mass, the faster you spin, the more stable the thing will be.
It has to be combined with weight, the Glock 18 fires at 1200 RPM, it only has a effective range of about 7 yards for a reason.
I agree. When ROF is so high that the recoil force is too high for the shooter to handle, a high ROF will result in bad stability, however when kept under a certain threshold, the faster the ROF the better the stability.
Doesn't have to be weight though... Could also be an effective brake, or a counter-balance system like that on an AK107.
A video side by side of the Thompson and the M3 would be interesting to watch as well.
They didn't let you bring a tub of Arizona mud in to. . . do what must be done.
Isn't that the weapon Simo Häyhä used for most of his shots? Iron sights and all?
Before you can say the Finnish M31 is the best Machine gun made in world war 2 you should test the Owen machine gun that was made in Australia you can drop it in mud , pick it up shake it and fire it without it stopping
Neill H Ian has a video on the Owen on the Forgotten Weapons channel
JTR_1889 yes I know what I was getting at was how good it worked
But there is more to a gun than just reliability. Weight, bullet accuracy, sights, stopping power, ergonomics etc. I haven't seen the video you talk about (I'll go and see it next), just wanted to mention these.
Sidenote: I don't think there ever will be one single best gun suited for every single occasion. There will always be different situations, missions, battles, weathers and terrains where different guns have differing pros and cons and the suitability in those situations accounts more than one really good feature.
The vertical magazine has some downsides. Good for lying down, not the best for ergos, sight picture and situation awareness.
Neill H.. actually go look forgotten weapons... there is video on that gun
And now we need a mudtest on both the M31 Suomi and the KP44.
lol that suomi just sits there, even with how much lead it's spitting out.
Perhaps a New manufacture Suomi would be a great project for Hill & Mac Gunwerks, what do you think?
+mwam1985 The gun really loses its appeal in semiauto. ~K
Does the smg (pistol calibre) still have a purpose with the creation of SBRs/pistols with rifle calibres?
Would be nice to see how thompson models hold up. Does the compensator help on the older models or are the slower m1a1's more controllable?
Had a chance to shoot one of these wonderful machines (video on my channel) . It's too much fun to shoot
Now this video is a bit old by now. But I wonder if the controlability has more to do with the rate of fire, recoil impulse and the the big heavy bolt smacking the gun forward being more or less accidentally matched to keep the gun steady. And not just the rate of fire.
Suomi compared to CZ ZK-383? Even taking into account their respective manufacturing costs?
How does the m31 Suomi compare to the beretta M.A.B. 38?
I wonder if the original Sudaev firing Tokarev pistol ammunition is closer to the "sweet spot" of controllable recoil.
Doesn't the M31 use advanced primer ignition to smooth out recoil?
Two "Wild And Crazy Guys!" :)
Now I want to see the Swedish kpist M45b.
Ambush having high ground, 5 guys spray drum or two, flee skiing downhill - few guys getting advantage of ambush and favorable ground can destroy even a company like viljam pylkäs in ambush with kp31, destroyed 80 men
By the way, Mr. Kuba....... Ja tez mowie po polsku i ogladam ten fajny kanal i bardzo
lubie strelac. Polska Walczaca!
I love karls analogies
Why don't U compare MP40 and PPS43, including their single vs double feed mags.
Ooooohhhh!!! The PERRRRRRRRRRRRKELE guns!
I've heard that the swedish K is a very smooth gun to fire, and it has the same 9mm chambering, similar stamped metal construction, and a similar, if not identical, rate of fire to the kp44. Wondering if that is actually true and if it is then why?
The Swedish K is very smooth firing, but it is a pound or so heavier than the KP44 which may not sound like much, but for guns that have the CG forward of the pistol grip, that makes a big difference. The Swedish K also has a heavier bolt and I believe it does not come fully into contact with the back of the receiver. The KP-44 does making the action a bit more harsh.
I thought it might not hit as hard against the back of the receiver, I remember the pps-43 has that leather or rubber buffer pad in the back.
3:02 I think Ian is in love