A great video with such a disappointing message. Truly, if this is the direction that Arkane of have chosen then we’re past the twilight of their best work. I can only hope that this comment ages poorly, I’d love them to prove us wrong.
@@MidnightMedium yea, I mean seeing Harvey with such bastions of truth such as Anita Sarkesian all the way back with Dishonoured 2, and now seeing him talking about how Redfall's vampires are a representation of the 1% (wut? why?), bro fell off hard. And it's not that I'm saying that "He believes in different politics, therefore bad", it's just that any writer who associates themselves with a grifter like Anita ends up writing stories that end up severely lacking in nuance (see Neil Druckmann). And that's just my concerns with the story and tone, Redfall looks REALLY mid from what I've seen on every other front as well. Really hope they surprise everyone, but I ain't holding my breath. And ultimately it's sad seeing this happen, especially since he worked on the first Deus Ex too. Also, what are your thoughts on Weird West, Raphael's new game? Heard good things about it, but SkillUp says it has problems.
39:40 Julianna turns the visionaries and everyone against Colt in her morning broadcast in the beginning of each loop, but as she doesn't do that when the loop is broken, none of them remember what Colt has been doing and they never were turned against Colt in the first place, which is why they're cool with him because he always was one of them.
Fantastic video man, I agree with almost everything you said. I loved the references to both Pig and The Forgotten City. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to have a small part in one of your projects. Looking forward to what's next man 🤘.
Thanks for contributing! I thought was something that really rung true w me as someone who loves Bioshock and found Infinite to be self important and thin, much like Deathloop was vapid and repetitive, unlike previous Arkane work had felt. Thanks so much!
you need to play it as pvp with a friend for the game to make sense as something more than yet another of arcane's immersive sim titles. the small maps, the stupid ai and the basic plot make it a fairly weak single player game. you can play it as a non-linear dishonored with a time loop, but it won't actually be very satisfying once you figure out what you need to do. I've personally played it a few times. The single player quickly becomes stale, so you need to play it on-line, where the stupid ai and the small maps make Deathloop a very fun game if you're playing against a real person. The on-line part unfortunately is somewhat unbaked and has issues, so you need to play the game on lan with a person you know. I'm personally glad that Deathloop exists, it's a work of love, the atmosphere and the art style are unforgettable, but I can see why some people won't like it. Deathloop had a very troubled development, so it's almost a miracle we got this game at all.
All fair points honestly. I just never had much fun against Julianna whether AI/ player or when I invaded as her because the other player would always camp out in some remote corner and make no attempt to fight me
@@MidnightMedium yeah that was the meta at some point. in my case it was either a crazy chase with a shoot-out or a hide-and-seek play. i still play the online sometimes. it can be a very fun game if you find the right player. unfortunately there's not a lot of players around me, so the latency is usually awful.
I managed to catch only the latter half of the premier. Can't really say I disagree with many of your points really. I do think it's hinted that people become "aware" of the loop if they experience repeated trauma, like Colt suiciding in the first loop, and in the second, he killed Julianna repeatedly and cruelly, waking her. That's why she appears killing Colt in the beginning, to make him remember. Ultimately, I think she's both bored and scared of being numbed back into forgetting, so she needs Colt to remain aware, and since Colt wants to end the loop, she knows he'll succeed sooner or later, and that's why she appears resigned in the ending. And I do believe the repeated loops are driving people crazy, and that's why everyone appears to be so horrible and violent all the time. One think you mentioned, that many people also did, and I'll point out too, is the disappointment at there being only one solution, only one Golden loop. While I played in the beginning, I kept thinking about ways of performing the loop, where I could or couldn't go, combinations, people locations, etc. It was like Hitman, as you mentioned. I thought it was about linking together several moving parts like in a puzzle, then executing it to perfection. But, once I realized there was only one way, I felt kinda sad, let down. I think the testers were confused in the earlier builds that didn't have all those trackers, so they added them in. Tough decision for Arkane, accessibility or a tighter "vision". I wonder if we'll get modding any time soon, to add more golden loops. I'll let the memory of the game fade a bit, and then try a no-infusion challenge playthrough I saw someone mention. Only loop-scavenged weapons/powers and the initial LIMP.
Thanks for explaining, Im glad I understand that better now! Yeah its not terrible, it just feels really safe and Redfall looks like an even safer bet from Arkane. Them selling out was not the outcome i anticipated in this timeline
Oh God, im sorry. Only way to go is up. Deathloop by comparison is five hundred times better than Redfall, Dishonoreds pretty good, Preys awesome, etc. You gotta at least try em out. Theyre all pretty special games
I've played both Dishonored. Really liked first one. Enjoyed second. Yet to play Prey, even though I own it. But even after seeing a lot from Deathloop, and watching plenty of videos, I am just not interested in playing in. And similarly to some games, like Inside (cool, ultimately disappointing case that's absolutely not 10), I think this is a case of game journos just proclaiming something is brilliant, without them actually caring about the game.
Mhm, word. The Deathloop speak has been so hokey and fake sounding. Its fine but its really just a clever concept done so conventionally once executed. I cannot recommend Prey enough. Its clunky sometimes and kinda brutal but its likely the best immersive sim outside the classics like Deus Ex and Thief and such
Nice commentary. I think a minute or two to at least mention pick rexly would’ve been worthwhile - it was a sign that at least some of the developers really wanted to add some unique depth
whats funny is I never wouldve known that character existed had a recommended video on her come up after I'd almost completed the video. what i noticed was that so much of the most interesting side stuff is squirreled away so well you're not highly likely to bump into it, which is a shame
Also just watched her cutscenes live or die and that was kinda fine I guess but extremely short and shallow. Just "I remember too, how cray" and then we are back to doing what we do. I think thats my major problem with this game. It never slows down long enough to tell a story or examine people inside of this scenario. Its so conceit oriented, so plot driven that nothing else really matters
A DEATH loop? Sounds dangerous. I kinda want to give this game another try but in a world of so many other games, it’s hard to justify rekindling a flame that didn’t quite ignite
deathloop is awesome. i understand some people are very jaded and have trouble enjoying things because their dopamine is all fucked up cause terminally online, chronic masturbation, ect. I like playing games on lsd and deathloop has great style and its fun to play with my friend lucy
ITS OUT FINALLY!!!! Great points dude. I really gotta agree with you on the end of the video about how big games are just moderate at times. I hope we’re able to see a change in the future :P
Yeah its so obvious we have achieved a level of proficiency that devs can churn out decent basic assets/animations but theres a lack of entertainers pride in many of even the most lush games
Dana has already gone on record stating this was NOT the original creative design of Deathloop. I know you had to have seen the Gamespot analysis for this. Many people including you can't help but compare it to Dishonored instead of judging it on it's own merits.
What wasn't the original design of Deathloop? And you actually should compare it to Dishonored because Deathloop was based on devs' concepts from Dishonored.
@@andreymagnuss Go watch GameSpot's video on the redesign that saved deathloop. And btw, you just proved that you're just another person (like the creator of this video) who can't help but compare it to Dishonored.
@@LEWfromdaHOU First of all, GameSpot video is a short-formatted retelling of Dana's talk at GDC and a few other places. Secondly, she was talking about the beginning of the game, it's introduction, tutorial. The concept of the game and most of it's parts remained the same and weren't influenced by the changes in the tutorial as it was already too late. Thirdly, Deathloop and Dishonored want different experiences for the player and try to get there with different tools. I don't think one is better than the other. I know I'll prefer Deathloop but will completely understand why people would choose Dishonored. If anyone, you're ignorant for not recognizing what GameSpot video was about and what people mean when they compare these games. Of course, some compare them on a very basic level, but I see Deathloop as the development of some of the recurring ideas from Dishonored that the team really wanted to push to a whole game.
And they scrapped the "Dark Souls tutorial" mentioned in that video as well as in the Overlode video I tagged in the description (same exact topic) because the testers reported how frustrated they were. These testers also reported being elated when they did figure it out but Arkane figured that most wouldn't stick with it long enough to get to this euphoria and chose to add in guided tutorials. And that's totally understandable, and I specifically acknowledge that rock and a hard place between having a great idea and having it actually be as interesting to learn. My only real qualm about the scriptedness is that's not how the game is marketed and not how the press in that very Gamestop video or Arkane themselves ever talked about it. They used words like "open-ended," "nonlinear," "murder puzzle" when there's no puzzling or thinking required in a detective sense. The only reason Dishonored even comes into the conversation (and notice we didn't really talk about anything else they've ever made like Arx Fatalis, Prey, or Dark Messiah, just Dishonored) is because it's so similar in its format to Deathloop but also because it just simply provides an easy, well-known point of reference to see how effective Deathloop's elements are, i.e. you start with a knife that backstabs fools and even uses very similar animations, you're still using blink and domino, you're still slinking around immersive sim style levels picking up info to advance your objectives. No problem with that in and of itself, obviously you build on things you've made more often than not, but it's not just that, Arkane Lyon's absolutely intentional in this regard. Think about the jump between Dark Messiah to Arx to Dishonored: they're not largely analogous to each other like Deathloop and Dishonored's core are. My argument was never that Deathloop has to be like Dishonored and if it's not I think it's bad, but if you're going to ape a game you've already made but remove most of the satisfaction of those detective elements, that's just simply worse. Not to mention the myriad of reasons that I criticized Deathloop: its AI which is a little too dumb to be fun to kill but also makes tipping one off a fucking chore because they bring so many friends, the repetitiveness of replaying these levels so many times for often meager rewards, the dumb story and dialogue, etc. All of that is arguably mediocre without ever mentioning Dishonored.
This was a great video! I am saying that as someone who considers "DEATHLOOP" to be Arkane Lyon's best game to date. I won't argue with you saying, "If you played the game this way you would've enjoyed it better" or something like that. Being in the immersive sim community for quite a while (or being on the internet in general) has made me realise that explaining how you had a blast or the person on the other side did not play the "ideal way" will not make them like the game any more. While much of what you said is purely opinion based, there were a few things that I think you either did not find in the game, misinterpreted or did not go deeper into. I know now you are done with the video (and the game too) so it would make sense if you don't want to hear more about it but, if you have some doubts about the story, systems, powers or anything else (as all of it goes waaay deeper than you presented it as in the video) you can ask me! This is not me going "I know better because I have 1200 hours on the game," I genuinely want to help clear out some doubts or misunderstandings about the game. I think what Arkane is doing right now is very important for immersive sim scene, we are still stuck with the mindset of, "The game needs to be like System Shock, Deus Ex or Thief, else it's not an immersive sim." They are trying to make it more than that by stretching the boundaries. Adding multiplayer elements might come with some compromises like interactivity, funneling and a more focused vision (also angry imsim purists) but, the things that multiplayer adds are equally amazing (just far less appreciated due to being considered "annoying"). [I am sorry if my grammar is bad, I am not a native English speaker 😅]
@@pigchamp3627 I would defend it by saying it's meant to be like that and that it also gets better? The eternalists get better the more you stress the loop (i.e. the more visionaries you kill). Even looking at this footage when they were talking about the dumb AI, I noticed that the gameplay was from "The Complex" (Afternoon) where they were probably going after Wenjie (so no visionaries were dead) which is why the AI had a brainfart (or the pathfinder AI was having issues with bypassing that specific terrain due to a collision bug). Also, I never said the game doesn't have any flaws so your reply didn't make any sense to me.
"Opinion based" I assume means just my preference but that's a pretty disingenuous reading of what I put out there. I gave pretty clear comparison and contrast on what works better in their own catalogue with nearly identical elements and how that streamlining and scripting out everything may make sense logistically but is honestly just a linear story with more busywork to make it progress. It's not more interesting, it's like you're just doing "imsim things" to make a linear FPS move forward and it's honestly fairly boring to move these things down the track, at least until the very end. Seems strange to call out the video generally speaking but then not offer specifics as to what you think was better done; as in, I'd love to hear them, not just be told they exist and then have an open ended "what are ALL your thoughts on Deathloop, please?" ;0 If anything, liking Deathloop and Infinite is going to come down to "I like simple and straightforward without much negative space." Something doesn't have to be deep to be good or likeable but presuming Deathloop has any of that is a pretty tall ask. It's fundamentally thin, full of vibe but very little substance.
i remember mad people saying it only got good reviews cause the two main characters were black but when they had the dishonored dlc with the black woman they shitted on that too
I don't think the game was ever meant to have engaging replays after the initial completion of the game. And it's fine, not every game has to. Replayability is embedded into the structure of the game and throughout the game you're encouraged to engage with all the game has to offer to receive the most complete experience. Though Arkane Lyon definitely made it more difficult for everyone to get a complete experience through this one playthrough because the player is provided with so much freedom in some areas compared to Dishonored (areas that are actually more critical to the freedom itself like the structure, levels and progression), that most people skip all the game has to offer. I'm actually quite happy if they're moving away from the philosophy of just producing 10,000 abilities and skills because it's the least interesting and most conventional way of providing freedom. I don't think that Immersive Sims are about that hefty amount, they're about increased player agency in specific areas depending on what the core of the game is and how it's distinctice from other members of the genre. I also don't quite understand what's wrong with the delivery of the lines by the VA. Does the vibe of the people on the island convey to you the need for them to all be dire and gloomy? They are in quite a bizzarre situation and it's not like there's no background to support such character presented. I know the way the story is being delivered isn't quite as sophisticated as it probably could've been, but it's usually the case with any Arkane game simply because they tend to prioritize everything but the delivery of the story in their budgets. That's why we only get notes, dialogues and audio recordings. Honestly I don't think animated cutscenes or dialogue options would fit Deathloop all that well. But the aforementioned narrative tools still build a whole picture of the island, it's inhabitants and Colt's past. It's just that the plot is virtually spelled out to the player in the first 30 seconds, except for one twist, and there just wouldn't be much else in terms of story progression specifically because they prioritized the structure that they chose. As to the freedom of the loop: the loop is free for the player to explore after the prologue and with the exception of the Final Loop. Okay, I get it, people are used to having choices that change the ending. But are they needed here? When did this become an essential element? It would actually be a problem for the narrative and UX of the game. The player is faced at the begining of the game with the idea of breaking the loop by means of killing all the visionaries in a specific order, which the player has to first learn. If there were multiple ways to break the loop, the "learning" part wouldn't pose such a challenge. Now you can say that it still isn't a challenge because there are all these popups and animated cutscenes (classic take). Well, it's virtually the same as it were in Dishonored games. You do something, the game spells out the next target based on the information you received. You find something, it gets added into your log. The exception is that Deathloop actually cares about people who have no interest in reading so much text and it provides the player with a shortened version. These are also triggered once an essential piece of information is received. So the player first learns it by themselves and only then the game spells it out. The player has to be very inattentive to think the game outright tells them everything. That is simply not true. Multiple ways to break the loop would also be much more complicated than in the other time loop games simply because of the complex structure of the game and the levels. There are already 14 maps (even if they take place at 4 levels). Each map is designed with specific visionary in mind (or lack thereof) or specific narrative set pieces and goals. Spreading 4 additional potential visionary places would be a huge hit on lead times. I also don't think Deathloop was ever creatively conceived as their most accessible game. May be business-wise by Bethesda, but that sentiment from the creative team comes not from the sales and rather from what they observed in player behavior in Dishonored games. Deathloop was actively brewing in the studio since Dishonored 2 and was meant to be an experiment and a culmination of some design philosophies of Dishonored. With that you don't even need to guess. That's what Dana Nightingale, Campaign Director, usually says. And I don't think there is any evidence to suggest otherwise. Deathloop is not supposed to be "greatest hits collection". It's premise alone limits itself in how much it can include from Dishonored. And it was never marketer to be the combination of Arkane's best work, the ultimate game. The tutorial was rushed near the end of production because the team realized too late that the players actually did not understand the game without a proper introduction. Say what you will about the complexity of the game, but dropping the player without proper introduction would result in a lot of confusion and frustration. There's even a talk by Dana Nightingale about their process designing their introduction to the game. The point of having an empty pathway next to an area filled with eternalists is to accomodate for later revisits to the map. Why do you need to go through the same encounter over and over again if you're there just to do one task (which can be the case as much as having plentiful of tasks can be). Well, you can avoid it altogether and get to your objective. There are several articles by Arkane Lyon's level designers if you'd like to know all the intricacies. I doubt co-development of Youngblood helped Arkane with their weapon design. They certainly might've asked Machine Games about designing weapons and gun combat in general, but Arkane Lyon mostly helped with level design on Youngblood and some of the art. You can combine powers, although, of course, not in as great number of combinations as was possible in Dishonored.
This was a great read! Also yeah, working on Wolfenstein was not how they improved on the gun combat. They only worked on the level design of the game. Instead MachineGames was asked to help Arkane to improve upon the gunplay. MachineGames was also responsible for creating the Stabilizer Core.
Right, I didn't expect it to, playing the game is replay in and of itself. The voice actors def have presence and tons of inflection, but the actual words on the page are so cringey, tryhard, and unimaginative. Swear, swear, swear, petty comment, swear, swear, swear. There's not an ounce of emotional or plot throughline other than the final loop's gameplay to make me care about what's going on. Multiple endings isn't a requirement, multiple avenues to the same end would'dve likely been more interesting and something they've already proven they can do. It isn't that the game has to be Dishonored, but it's not like it's not incredibly indebted to that game's design anyway and then just removes the fun, even tricksy ways you can feel like you're the one making the stuff happen, even if Dishonored's obviously got some defined lanes of completion. I think you know I know about that Dana Nightingale interview about the tutorial since the interview video is sampled in this video ;) Youngblood could be fair enough; Ive heard it implied that mightve helped their gameplay in Deathloop but it makes more sense they'd do level design. Empty pathways in levels are still there from the outset, not just a consideration for replays, and you never need to go through the crowded areas I'm talking about at any point so it makes that future proofing unnecessary. Genuine question: what power combos are you talking? Thanks for taking the time to engage the material!
@@MidnightMedium Ok, even though I've been speaking English in some form or another since school and have a keen affection for any on-screen performances, I'm still not a native speaker and I wouldn't claim that the dialogue cannot be considered cringe. I just think that given the circumstances the characters are in (what happened before the loop, what has been happening in the loop for the past at least 130 years and what's going on in the current number of loops) this kind of talk makes sense. Julianna taunts Colt, Colt's always unaware. And even though there isn't much to the story being developed through the dialogue, their dynamics keep players hooked. I would suppose that Arkane never intended for this to be a breakthrough story or especially plot. The concept of the structure of the game was conceived first and I doubt any thought was given at the point as to how the story would unveil. As to the future of Arkane Lyon, I think they have better chances at making more or less traditional immersive sims than Austin team because there's less of a staff turnover and more potential for such a niche genre to thrive. You can already see they recognize their mistakes (Campaign Director, Narrative Designer both had talks where they went through their processes dealing with something new for the team). I believe that Fallout 76, Wolfenstein: Youngblood, Deathloop and Redfall were all attempts by Bethesda to incorporate MP in their games after they had one flop after the other in 2016-2017 (with the exception of DOOM). But it appears to be as if they didn't push the devs to do so but rather suggested trying that for maybe higher budgets or less limitations and other areas. Either way, I doubt any of the studios were fully committed to this experiment by Bethesda. Arkane Lyon just got lucky getting a chance to experiment and even try to bring back their MP concept from the past without straying too far from what the values of the studio are. I think they succeeded at most and failed at some, which is of course opposite to your stance, but just like the probable situation in Bethesda at the time, when you're talking about the studio's reasons for doing things a specific way, it's also important to recognize when devs accept their mistake and actually tell you why this or that didn't work. Take Dana dor example. She said in her talk that they've learned a lot from the experience of doing a tutorial like this and next time would do it completely differently simply because they were late with it, didn't have enough time to make it and the goal at this point was just to make players play the game rather than drop instantly. Multiple ending loops might've posed problems for both progression and development. It's not like you can just make Alexis go to Wenjie or Frank go to Harriet. It would require a complete restructure of the progression and narrative from the development standpoint. It just wouldn't be the same game. It would also make it appear easier a task for the player. As it stand now, the player has to find out about the way to break the loop. Sure they'll get assisted with the task if they wish so, but it still is a challenge compared to being given a choice between making Frank blow up and making him go to Harriet. If you think the added engagement with the system and trial-and-error approach would enhance the experience, then ok. I just think it would hurt the flow and player goals. Dishonored and Deathloop are linear and non-linear in different ways. I understand why people hold Dishonored's non-linear aspects in high regard, I just see it as outdated game design and game narrative. Harvey Smith from Arkane Austin was also talking about how scripted choices were highlights from Dishonored for most players. Does that mean Arkane Lyon should do Detroit: Become David Cage 2? I don't think that's what they're after. I wouldn't say these combinations are as popular as Slow time + Anything in Dishonored (granted I haven't really used it in both Dishonored games), but there are: - Nexus + any Slab (works better with some of the upgrades that aren't just buffs) - Nexus + some Trinkets (mostly with impact on the enemies) These are the obvious ones, you can just load the game and try some of others, which aren't as spectacular, but they're there. I haven't touched the game for almost half a year, so I wouldn't claim about the effectiveness of other combinations without testing them. The speed of the game is generally increased and given the multiplayer there isn't much of need to toy around with mind-blowing combinations. Deathloop's combinations are quick and effective. But they are still not as quick and effective against AI as just plain guns so unless you're playing MP you wouldn't rely on combinations. Although there are enough builds on the internet if you're interested. Also I only now realized you didn't talk much about the multiplayer mode, which is a more or less an essential part of an enjoyable Deathloop experience. Technical issues are still present, but a lot from the single-player was sacrificed in the name of this unique multiplayer mode (which isn't just Dark Souls invasions).
A great video with such a disappointing message. Truly, if this is the direction that Arkane of have chosen then we’re past the twilight of their best work.
I can only hope that this comment ages poorly, I’d love them to prove us wrong.
Feels that way. No one likes a doomsday prophet but ill be damned if i keep expecting the world when the trend is obvious
Old Arkane died when Raphael left. Change my mind.
I think youre prob right. So many talented people at Arkane still like Harvey Smith and Dana Nightingale but I feel them slipping
@@MidnightMedium yea, I mean seeing Harvey with such bastions of truth such as Anita Sarkesian all the way back with Dishonoured 2, and now seeing him talking about how Redfall's vampires are a representation of the 1% (wut? why?), bro fell off hard.
And it's not that I'm saying that "He believes in different politics, therefore bad", it's just that any writer who associates themselves with a grifter like Anita ends up writing stories that end up severely lacking in nuance (see Neil Druckmann).
And that's just my concerns with the story and tone, Redfall looks REALLY mid from what I've seen on every other front as well. Really hope they surprise everyone, but I ain't holding my breath.
And ultimately it's sad seeing this happen, especially since he worked on the first Deus Ex too.
Also, what are your thoughts on Weird West, Raphael's new game? Heard good things about it, but SkillUp says it has problems.
39:40 Julianna turns the visionaries and everyone against Colt in her morning broadcast in the beginning of each loop, but as she doesn't do that when the loop is broken, none of them remember what Colt has been doing and they never were turned against Colt in the first place, which is why they're cool with him because he always was one of them.
Hmm, okay. Thought I read in game he went rogue and stopped cooperating sith them, hence the animosity
Fantastic video man, I agree with almost everything you said. I loved the references to both Pig and The Forgotten City. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to have a small part in one of your projects. Looking forward to what's next man 🤘.
Thanks for contributing! I thought was something that really rung true w me as someone who loves Bioshock and found Infinite to be self important and thin, much like Deathloop was vapid and repetitive, unlike previous Arkane work had felt. Thanks so much!
Haven`t watched the whole video yet but i thought Deathloop was so mediocre, and Redfall is looking even worse.
Amen. This videos decidedly negative spin will likely ring truer as Redfall nears. Last sections go on quite a tear about this!
@@MidnightMedium It was a really entertaining watching keep up the amazing content, yeah the more they show about Redfall more formulaic it seems.
you need to play it as pvp with a friend for the game to make sense as something more than yet another of arcane's immersive sim titles. the small maps, the stupid ai and the basic plot make it a fairly weak single player game. you can play it as a non-linear dishonored with a time loop, but it won't actually be very satisfying once you figure out what you need to do.
I've personally played it a few times. The single player quickly becomes stale, so you need to play it on-line, where the stupid ai and the small maps make Deathloop a very fun game if you're playing against a real person. The on-line part unfortunately is somewhat unbaked and has issues, so you need to play the game on lan with a person you know.
I'm personally glad that Deathloop exists, it's a work of love, the atmosphere and the art style are unforgettable, but I can see why some people won't like it. Deathloop had a very troubled development, so it's almost a miracle we got this game at all.
All fair points honestly. I just never had much fun against Julianna whether AI/ player or when I invaded as her because the other player would always camp out in some remote corner and make no attempt to fight me
@@MidnightMedium yeah that was the meta at some point. in my case it was either a crazy chase with a shoot-out or a hide-and-seek play. i still play the online sometimes. it can be a very fun game if you find the right player. unfortunately there's not a lot of players around me, so the latency is usually awful.
I managed to catch only the latter half of the premier. Can't really say I disagree with many of your points really. I do think it's hinted that people become "aware" of the loop if they experience repeated trauma, like Colt suiciding in the first loop, and in the second, he killed Julianna repeatedly and cruelly, waking her. That's why she appears killing Colt in the beginning, to make him remember. Ultimately, I think she's both bored and scared of being numbed back into forgetting, so she needs Colt to remain aware, and since Colt wants to end the loop, she knows he'll succeed sooner or later, and that's why she appears resigned in the ending. And I do believe the repeated loops are driving people crazy, and that's why everyone appears to be so horrible and violent all the time.
One think you mentioned, that many people also did, and I'll point out too, is the disappointment at there being only one solution, only one Golden loop. While I played in the beginning, I kept thinking about ways of performing the loop, where I could or couldn't go, combinations, people locations, etc. It was like Hitman, as you mentioned. I thought it was about linking together several moving parts like in a puzzle, then executing it to perfection. But, once I realized there was only one way, I felt kinda sad, let down. I think the testers were confused in the earlier builds that didn't have all those trackers, so they added them in. Tough decision for Arkane, accessibility or a tighter "vision". I wonder if we'll get modding any time soon, to add more golden loops.
I'll let the memory of the game fade a bit, and then try a no-infusion challenge playthrough I saw someone mention. Only loop-scavenged weapons/powers and the initial LIMP.
Thanks for explaining, Im glad I understand that better now! Yeah its not terrible, it just feels really safe and Redfall looks like an even safer bet from Arkane. Them selling out was not the outcome i anticipated in this timeline
Love it , have not played it but have been thinking about it (Redfall is my first Arkane game 💀)
Oh God, im sorry. Only way to go is up. Deathloop by comparison is five hundred times better than Redfall, Dishonoreds pretty good, Preys awesome, etc. You gotta at least try em out. Theyre all pretty special games
I've played both Dishonored. Really liked first one. Enjoyed second. Yet to play Prey, even though I own it. But even after seeing a lot from Deathloop, and watching plenty of videos, I am just not interested in playing in. And similarly to some games, like Inside (cool, ultimately disappointing case that's absolutely not 10), I think this is a case of game journos just proclaiming something is brilliant, without them actually caring about the game.
Mhm, word. The Deathloop speak has been so hokey and fake sounding. Its fine but its really just a clever concept done so conventionally once executed. I cannot recommend Prey enough. Its clunky sometimes and kinda brutal but its likely the best immersive sim outside the classics like Deus Ex and Thief and such
This game starts promising but turns into huge waste of time as you are repeating loop after loop for small incremental progress in the story.
Heartily agree. Theres so much dead space in the middle where it just sags
never even heard a it
Now you have ;)
Nice commentary. I think a minute or two to at least mention pick rexly would’ve been worthwhile - it was a sign that at least some of the developers really wanted to add some unique depth
whats funny is I never wouldve known that character existed had a recommended video on her come up after I'd almost completed the video. what i noticed was that so much of the most interesting side stuff is squirreled away so well you're not highly likely to bump into it, which is a shame
Also just watched her cutscenes live or die and that was kinda fine I guess but extremely short and shallow. Just "I remember too, how cray" and then we are back to doing what we do. I think thats my major problem with this game. It never slows down long enough to tell a story or examine people inside of this scenario. Its so conceit oriented, so plot driven that nothing else really matters
A DEATH loop? Sounds dangerous.
I kinda want to give this game another try but in a world of so many other games, it’s hard to justify rekindling a flame that didn’t quite ignite
Yeah man i found the end of this game totally underwhelming. The final loop was satisfying and tense but it was the only part of the game that was
Deathloop rules.
Big L take
To each their own
deathloop is awesome. i understand some people are very jaded and have trouble enjoying things because their dopamine is all fucked up cause terminally online, chronic masturbation, ect. I like playing games on lsd and deathloop has great style and its fun to play with my friend lucy
Can we all just take a moment to enjoy the irony of the previous comment?
I mean, if anyone's dopamine is out-of-whack...
Honestly forgot this existed after a short trailer I saw... A long time ago.
I had to forget cuz im on Xbox and a year went by before i could play. Help me forget again ;)
@@MidnightMedium awesome video as usual.
ITS OUT FINALLY!!!! Great points dude. I really gotta agree with you on the end of the video about how big games are just moderate at times. I hope we’re able to see a change in the future :P
Yeah its so obvious we have achieved a level of proficiency that devs can churn out decent basic assets/animations but theres a lack of entertainers pride in many of even the most lush games
Dana has already gone on record stating this was NOT the original creative design of Deathloop. I know you had to have seen the Gamespot analysis for this. Many people including you can't help but compare it to Dishonored instead of judging it on it's own merits.
What wasn't the original design of Deathloop? And you actually should compare it to Dishonored because Deathloop was based on devs' concepts from Dishonored.
@@andreymagnuss Go watch GameSpot's video on the redesign that saved deathloop. And btw, you just proved that you're just another person (like the creator of this video) who can't help but compare it to Dishonored.
@@LEWfromdaHOU First of all, GameSpot video is a short-formatted retelling of Dana's talk at GDC and a few other places. Secondly, she was talking about the beginning of the game, it's introduction, tutorial. The concept of the game and most of it's parts remained the same and weren't influenced by the changes in the tutorial as it was already too late. Thirdly, Deathloop and Dishonored want different experiences for the player and try to get there with different tools. I don't think one is better than the other. I know I'll prefer Deathloop but will completely understand why people would choose Dishonored. If anyone, you're ignorant for not recognizing what GameSpot video was about and what people mean when they compare these games. Of course, some compare them on a very basic level, but I see Deathloop as the development of some of the recurring ideas from Dishonored that the team really wanted to push to a whole game.
And they scrapped the "Dark Souls tutorial" mentioned in that video as well as in the Overlode video I tagged in the description (same exact topic) because the testers reported how frustrated they were. These testers also reported being elated when they did figure it out but Arkane figured that most wouldn't stick with it long enough to get to this euphoria and chose to add in guided tutorials. And that's totally understandable, and I specifically acknowledge that rock and a hard place between having a great idea and having it actually be as interesting to learn.
My only real qualm about the scriptedness is that's not how the game is marketed and not how the press in that very Gamestop video or Arkane themselves ever talked about it. They used words like "open-ended," "nonlinear," "murder puzzle" when there's no puzzling or thinking required in a detective sense.
The only reason Dishonored even comes into the conversation (and notice we didn't really talk about anything else they've ever made like Arx Fatalis, Prey, or Dark Messiah, just Dishonored) is because it's so similar in its format to Deathloop but also because it just simply provides an easy, well-known point of reference to see how effective Deathloop's elements are, i.e. you start with a knife that backstabs fools and even uses very similar animations, you're still using blink and domino, you're still slinking around immersive sim style levels picking up info to advance your objectives. No problem with that in and of itself, obviously you build on things you've made more often than not, but it's not just that, Arkane Lyon's absolutely intentional in this regard. Think about the jump between Dark Messiah to Arx to Dishonored: they're not largely analogous to each other like Deathloop and Dishonored's core are. My argument was never that Deathloop has to be like Dishonored and if it's not I think it's bad, but if you're going to ape a game you've already made but remove most of the satisfaction of those detective elements, that's just simply worse. Not to mention the myriad of reasons that I criticized Deathloop: its AI which is a little too dumb to be fun to kill but also makes tipping one off a fucking chore because they bring so many friends, the repetitiveness of replaying these levels so many times for often meager rewards, the dumb story and dialogue, etc. All of that is arguably mediocre without ever mentioning Dishonored.
This was a great video! I am saying that as someone who considers "DEATHLOOP" to be Arkane Lyon's best game to date. I won't argue with you saying, "If you played the game this way you would've enjoyed it better" or something like that. Being in the immersive sim community for quite a while (or being on the internet in general) has made me realise that explaining how you had a blast or the person on the other side did not play the "ideal way" will not make them like the game any more.
While much of what you said is purely opinion based, there were a few things that I think you either did not find in the game, misinterpreted or did not go deeper into. I know now you are done with the video (and the game too) so it would make sense if you don't want to hear more about it but, if you have some doubts about the story, systems, powers or anything else (as all of it goes waaay deeper than you presented it as in the video) you can ask me!
This is not me going "I know better because I have 1200 hours on the game," I genuinely want to help clear out some doubts or misunderstandings about the game. I think what Arkane is doing right now is very important for immersive sim scene, we are still stuck with the mindset of, "The game needs to be like System Shock, Deus Ex or Thief, else it's not an immersive sim." They are trying to make it more than that by stretching the boundaries. Adding multiplayer elements might come with some compromises like interactivity, funneling and a more focused vision (also angry imsim purists) but, the things that multiplayer adds are equally amazing (just far less appreciated due to being considered "annoying").
[I am sorry if my grammar is bad, I am not a native English speaker 😅]
How would you defend the terribly stupid and lacklustre a.i?
@@pigchamp3627 I would defend it by saying it's meant to be like that and that it also gets better? The eternalists get better the more you stress the loop (i.e. the more visionaries you kill). Even looking at this footage when they were talking about the dumb AI, I noticed that the gameplay was from "The Complex" (Afternoon) where they were probably going after Wenjie (so no visionaries were dead) which is why the AI had a brainfart (or the pathfinder AI was having issues with bypassing that specific terrain due to a collision bug).
Also, I never said the game doesn't have any flaws so your reply didn't make any sense to me.
"Opinion based" I assume means just my preference but that's a pretty disingenuous reading of what I put out there. I gave pretty clear comparison and contrast on what works better in their own catalogue with nearly identical elements and how that streamlining and scripting out everything may make sense logistically but is honestly just a linear story with more busywork to make it progress. It's not more interesting, it's like you're just doing "imsim things" to make a linear FPS move forward and it's honestly fairly boring to move these things down the track, at least until the very end.
Seems strange to call out the video generally speaking but then not offer specifics as to what you think was better done; as in, I'd love to hear them, not just be told they exist and then have an open ended "what are ALL your thoughts on Deathloop, please?" ;0
If anything, liking Deathloop and Infinite is going to come down to "I like simple and straightforward without much negative space." Something doesn't have to be deep to be good or likeable but presuming Deathloop has any of that is a pretty tall ask. It's fundamentally thin, full of vibe but very little substance.
i remember mad people saying it only got good reviews cause the two main characters were black
but when they had the dishonored dlc with the black woman they shitted on that too
Id like to play more games with black lead characters, not less! And I thought Billie Lurk was the best character in the series outside of Daud
I don't think the game was ever meant to have engaging replays after the initial completion of the game. And it's fine, not every game has to. Replayability is embedded into the structure of the game and throughout the game you're encouraged to engage with all the game has to offer to receive the most complete experience. Though Arkane Lyon definitely made it more difficult for everyone to get a complete experience through this one playthrough because the player is provided with so much freedom in some areas compared to Dishonored (areas that are actually more critical to the freedom itself like the structure, levels and progression), that most people skip all the game has to offer. I'm actually quite happy if they're moving away from the philosophy of just producing 10,000 abilities and skills because it's the least interesting and most conventional way of providing freedom. I don't think that Immersive Sims are about that hefty amount, they're about increased player agency in specific areas depending on what the core of the game is and how it's distinctice from other members of the genre.
I also don't quite understand what's wrong with the delivery of the lines by the VA. Does the vibe of the people on the island convey to you the need for them to all be dire and gloomy? They are in quite a bizzarre situation and it's not like there's no background to support such character presented. I know the way the story is being delivered isn't quite as sophisticated as it probably could've been, but it's usually the case with any Arkane game simply because they tend to prioritize everything but the delivery of the story in their budgets. That's why we only get notes, dialogues and audio recordings. Honestly I don't think animated cutscenes or dialogue options would fit Deathloop all that well. But the aforementioned narrative tools still build a whole picture of the island, it's inhabitants and Colt's past. It's just that the plot is virtually spelled out to the player in the first 30 seconds, except for one twist, and there just wouldn't be much else in terms of story progression specifically because they prioritized the structure that they chose.
As to the freedom of the loop: the loop is free for the player to explore after the prologue and with the exception of the Final Loop. Okay, I get it, people are used to having choices that change the ending. But are they needed here? When did this become an essential element? It would actually be a problem for the narrative and UX of the game. The player is faced at the begining of the game with the idea of breaking the loop by means of killing all the visionaries in a specific order, which the player has to first learn. If there were multiple ways to break the loop, the "learning" part wouldn't pose such a challenge. Now you can say that it still isn't a challenge because there are all these popups and animated cutscenes (classic take). Well, it's virtually the same as it were in Dishonored games. You do something, the game spells out the next target based on the information you received. You find something, it gets added into your log. The exception is that Deathloop actually cares about people who have no interest in reading so much text and it provides the player with a shortened version. These are also triggered once an essential piece of information is received. So the player first learns it by themselves and only then the game spells it out. The player has to be very inattentive to think the game outright tells them everything. That is simply not true. Multiple ways to break the loop would also be much more complicated than in the other time loop games simply because of the complex structure of the game and the levels. There are already 14 maps (even if they take place at 4 levels). Each map is designed with specific visionary in mind (or lack thereof) or specific narrative set pieces and goals. Spreading 4 additional potential visionary places would be a huge hit on lead times.
I also don't think Deathloop was ever creatively conceived as their most accessible game. May be business-wise by Bethesda, but that sentiment from the creative team comes not from the sales and rather from what they observed in player behavior in Dishonored games. Deathloop was actively brewing in the studio since Dishonored 2 and was meant to be an experiment and a culmination of some design philosophies of Dishonored. With that you don't even need to guess. That's what Dana Nightingale, Campaign Director, usually says. And I don't think there is any evidence to suggest otherwise.
Deathloop is not supposed to be "greatest hits collection". It's premise alone limits itself in how much it can include from Dishonored. And it was never marketer to be the combination of Arkane's best work, the ultimate game.
The tutorial was rushed near the end of production because the team realized too late that the players actually did not understand the game without a proper introduction. Say what you will about the complexity of the game, but dropping the player without proper introduction would result in a lot of confusion and frustration. There's even a talk by Dana Nightingale about their process designing their introduction to the game.
The point of having an empty pathway next to an area filled with eternalists is to accomodate for later revisits to the map. Why do you need to go through the same encounter over and over again if you're there just to do one task (which can be the case as much as having plentiful of tasks can be). Well, you can avoid it altogether and get to your objective. There are several articles by Arkane Lyon's level designers if you'd like to know all the intricacies.
I doubt co-development of Youngblood helped Arkane with their weapon design. They certainly might've asked Machine Games about designing weapons and gun combat in general, but Arkane Lyon mostly helped with level design on Youngblood and some of the art.
You can combine powers, although, of course, not in as great number of combinations as was possible in Dishonored.
This was a great read! Also yeah, working on Wolfenstein was not how they improved on the gun combat. They only worked on the level design of the game.
Instead MachineGames was asked to help Arkane to improve upon the gunplay. MachineGames was also responsible for creating the Stabilizer Core.
Right, I didn't expect it to, playing the game is replay in and of itself.
The voice actors def have presence and tons of inflection, but the actual words on the page are so cringey, tryhard, and unimaginative. Swear, swear, swear, petty comment, swear, swear, swear. There's not an ounce of emotional or plot throughline other than the final loop's gameplay to make me care about what's going on.
Multiple endings isn't a requirement, multiple avenues to the same end would'dve likely been more interesting and something they've already proven they can do. It isn't that the game has to be Dishonored, but it's not like it's not incredibly indebted to that game's design anyway and then just removes the fun, even tricksy ways you can feel like you're the one making the stuff happen, even if Dishonored's obviously got some defined lanes of completion.
I think you know I know about that Dana Nightingale interview about the tutorial since the interview video is sampled in this video ;)
Youngblood could be fair enough; Ive heard it implied that mightve helped their gameplay in Deathloop but it makes more sense they'd do level design.
Empty pathways in levels are still there from the outset, not just a consideration for replays, and you never need to go through the crowded areas I'm talking about at any point so it makes that future proofing unnecessary.
Genuine question: what power combos are you talking?
Thanks for taking the time to engage the material!
@@pandyssianrat did they like really help with the guns? Didn't see anyone from Machine Games in Deathloop credits outside of Machine Games art teams
@@MidnightMedium Ok, even though I've been speaking English in some form or another since school and have a keen affection for any on-screen performances, I'm still not a native speaker and I wouldn't claim that the dialogue cannot be considered cringe. I just think that given the circumstances the characters are in (what happened before the loop, what has been happening in the loop for the past at least 130 years and what's going on in the current number of loops) this kind of talk makes sense. Julianna taunts Colt, Colt's always unaware. And even though there isn't much to the story being developed through the dialogue, their dynamics keep players hooked. I would suppose that Arkane never intended for this to be a breakthrough story or especially plot. The concept of the structure of the game was conceived first and I doubt any thought was given at the point as to how the story would unveil.
As to the future of Arkane Lyon, I think they have better chances at making more or less traditional immersive sims than Austin team because there's less of a staff turnover and more potential for such a niche genre to thrive. You can already see they recognize their mistakes (Campaign Director, Narrative Designer both had talks where they went through their processes dealing with something new for the team). I believe that Fallout 76, Wolfenstein: Youngblood, Deathloop and Redfall were all attempts by Bethesda to incorporate MP in their games after they had one flop after the other in 2016-2017 (with the exception of DOOM). But it appears to be as if they didn't push the devs to do so but rather suggested trying that for maybe higher budgets or less limitations and other areas. Either way, I doubt any of the studios were fully committed to this experiment by Bethesda. Arkane Lyon just got lucky getting a chance to experiment and even try to bring back their MP concept from the past without straying too far from what the values of the studio are. I think they succeeded at most and failed at some, which is of course opposite to your stance, but just like the probable situation in Bethesda at the time, when you're talking about the studio's reasons for doing things a specific way, it's also important to recognize when devs accept their mistake and actually tell you why this or that didn't work. Take Dana dor example. She said in her talk that they've learned a lot from the experience of doing a tutorial like this and next time would do it completely differently simply because they were late with it, didn't have enough time to make it and the goal at this point was just to make players play the game rather than drop instantly.
Multiple ending loops might've posed problems for both progression and development. It's not like you can just make Alexis go to Wenjie or Frank go to Harriet. It would require a complete restructure of the progression and narrative from the development standpoint. It just wouldn't be the same game. It would also make it appear easier a task for the player. As it stand now, the player has to find out about the way to break the loop. Sure they'll get assisted with the task if they wish so, but it still is a challenge compared to being given a choice between making Frank blow up and making him go to Harriet. If you think the added engagement with the system and trial-and-error approach would enhance the experience, then ok. I just think it would hurt the flow and player goals.
Dishonored and Deathloop are linear and non-linear in different ways. I understand why people hold Dishonored's non-linear aspects in high regard, I just see it as outdated game design and game narrative. Harvey Smith from Arkane Austin was also talking about how scripted choices were highlights from Dishonored for most players. Does that mean Arkane Lyon should do Detroit: Become David Cage 2? I don't think that's what they're after.
I wouldn't say these combinations are as popular as Slow time + Anything in Dishonored (granted I haven't really used it in both Dishonored games), but there are:
- Nexus + any Slab (works better with some of the upgrades that aren't just buffs)
- Nexus + some Trinkets (mostly with impact on the enemies)
These are the obvious ones, you can just load the game and try some of others, which aren't as spectacular, but they're there. I haven't touched the game for almost half a year, so I wouldn't claim about the effectiveness of other combinations without testing them. The speed of the game is generally increased and given the multiplayer there isn't much of need to toy around with mind-blowing combinations. Deathloop's combinations are quick and effective. But they are still not as quick and effective against AI as just plain guns so unless you're playing MP you wouldn't rely on combinations. Although there are enough builds on the internet if you're interested.
Also I only now realized you didn't talk much about the multiplayer mode, which is a more or less an essential part of an enjoyable Deathloop experience. Technical issues are still present, but a lot from the single-player was sacrificed in the name of this unique multiplayer mode (which isn't just Dark Souls invasions).