I used to play in a contemporary Christian music band and I don’t like it. It just comes across as bad pop music with the word ‘baby’ replaced with Jesus.
truth. I mean if you're learning bass its like smooth jazz and isn't a bad place to start ,but , its probably more enjoyable to play than smooth jazz, though. Gotta see the good in things, eh?
Homeward Bound that’s another issue I had, especially with younger women singers, although the men had their issues too. I’m not expecting a burqa or anything but at least being mindful of your appearance is important, especially for religious people.
Well said. Evangelical 46 years, Orthodox 25 years I have some perspective. I loved being Evangelical up to the point where I realized the song lyrics were largely about me and being happy. I was starving for worship! I knew that I had deep wounds, serious questions, glossed over sins that Evangelicals didn’t address. You weren’t supposed to be unhappy let alone ask questions! Some Evangelical Churches HIRED singers who could emotionally move the congregation. In one service, the Pastor said he hoped the singer would become a Christian. (I felt sick!) I love the fact that Chant isn’t entertainment! I love worship, asking questions, confession, fasting, hard work on cleaning up my soul! Some old hymns have deep and beautiful lyrics that often come from liturgical memory. They lead to prayer and worship. These lyrics used to stir my young heart... “When we’ve been there a thousand years bright shining as the sun, we’ve no more days to sing God’s praise than when we first began.”
Something else to consider is that the liturgy used in the Orthodox Church is rooted in sacred tradition, intended for internal use and for a specific purpose. Contemporary Christian Music is a multi-million dollar industry that produces music for profit, which must constantly re-adapt itself to the vagaries of consumer preference.
I grew up in California in the 1970s. It was the height of the drug culture. Heavy metal and hard rock were on every corner. Soft rock was beginning to get popular. I left the cult where i was raised and a few years later i became a Christian. When I went to Church not knowing any truth, i found myself immersed into the same musical rot i had always tried to avoid as a youngster. Different words, of course, but the same music. Doing my best to live a Christian life i went to church anyway and suffered through it. Raising my family as best i understood, in this atmosphere which i abhored. Then God convicted me of Orthodoxy. I simply cannot tell you in human eords the relief i feel as i walk into Church on Sunday morning and hear Orthodox hymns and prayers being chanted. The atmosphere is so incredibly devine. And not a single note to remind me of that wretched drug culture.😁
Prior to becoming Orthodox, I was a non-denominational protestant who became a conservative Lutheran later on. I was, and continue to be, very much involved in church music. Here’s my perspective: The “Praise and Worship” style of contemporary Christian music is, as you say Bojan, very much based on emotion. I would go so far as to say it can be used in an emotionally manipulative way during a service. Using music to raise people’s emotions to a fever pitch in order to stir up love for God, repentance, contrition, or the like, is considered to be true worship. Over the years, I noticed a marked dumbing down of the content; there were fewer scripture songs, and many more simple, repetitious catch phrase songs. As one friend put it, contemporary Christian music is “a mile wide and an inch deep.” I can’t bring myself to listen to Christian radio stations. In contrast, Lutheran music (Missouri Synod, in my case) consisted of the greatest hits of 1520, but sounded like “dead music” to the non-denom evangelicals. The hymns are didactic in nature; meaty, but spiked with error in the light of Orthodoxy. Perhaps contemporary Christian music is OK when you’re sitting around a campfire with your besties, strumming your guitar. I’d prefer to sing “Agni Parthene” myself!
I heard a former satanist who accepted Christ & now a Protestant told his experience as a member of a satanist cult in the late 80s to early 90s. When he was a satanist, he was actively "recruiting" teenagers & young adults at protestant churches, trying to convert them there into his cult by seducing them, if the victim is the opposing sex, or indirectly hypnotizing them with spells. He said the pop Protestant music made his operation easier because the beat & the style of the music helped him to distract their victim's focus, made them emotional, & gradually forget the worship part.
I've been attending an Orthodox Church for the past 2 months and had attended an Evangelical church for 4.5 years. This is my takeaway from it. The Evangelical church's music stirred up emotion in me that made me want to dance and pray to God in thanksgiving because I was happy. They changed traditional hymns in order to add more emotional value to the lyrics and to make them more recognizable to the younger audience (this angered me quite a bit, actually). People would raise their hands as they sang and swayed to the music, allowing their emotions to guide them. But it was all the same message; "God, I love you", "Jesus, you are the Savior", "God, you're so great because you never leave me", "God, I will follow you", etc. St. John Chrysostom's liturgy (that's the only one I've been exposed to at this time) has brought me to my knees crying, begging for mercy from God because I could see how much of a sinner. I beg God to let me be in communion with Him because I have realized that, for my entire life, I was not in communion with Him and I didn't want to be separate from Him. My thoughts? I'd rather cry and beg for mercy from the realization of how much I need God and the sinner I really am, than smile because I know God loves me. I'd rather have an emotional response from something that isn't supposed to make you have an emotional response. I'd rather continue realizing I'm sinful than smile because I'm forgiven.
Protestant Evangelical so-called non denominational churches also do subtle things like having a piano quietly playing in the background as the pastor gives his impassioned.plea to come up for the altar call.
Hi Bojan! Unrelated, but I uploaded some Spanish subtitles for a video on your main channel: Talents of Love, Talents of Hate. I was wondering if you could check them and approve them so Spanish viewers can understand the video? :D
The word "tier" is pronounced "tee-er". It is pronounced in a way such that it rhymes with "tear" as in, when you cry. It doesn't rhyme with "tyre/tire". You can check Google Translate for the pronunciation. You just type the word into one of the boxes and click the sound button in the bottom-right of the box, next to the microphone icon.
Good thoughts, I agree with this experience. I grew up in a Methodist Church, and after coming back to it a second time as a post-college "revert", enjoyed worshipping in a traditional Methodist church. We sang hymns that were scriptural, almost all of which were one, two, or three hundred years old, i.e. time-tested and loved by Christians all over the Protestant world. Then a church I attended after moving to Florida changed everything. Modern music, but what drove me away was that they stopped reciting a creed as the old traditional church did, they stopped saying the Lord's Prayer, and on the less-frequent practice of communion, stopped saying the prayer of repentance and free-formed the rest. But the thing that ended it all for me was when they covered all the windows to create a rock-concert atmosphere and put on a light show. That was so distracting. We used to worship in a sanctuary with a beautiful stained glass window, and now we worshipped in darkness followed by flashing lights. Arggh! And I worked on the Tech Team that put it together. My heart wasn't in it. I wanted to sing in a choir, and I didn't want to sing songs I could hear on the radio after church either. Visited an Orthodox church soon thereafter, and after several visits, became a catachumen, joined the choir and was chrismated into full fellowship about a year and a half later.
What you said about emotions was an interesting take on it. I just came from listing to some of that kind of beautiful music that sirs up emotions and your take gave me a different perspective on it and emotionally charged spiritual moments. Once in a dark moment of pessimism I turned against on of my deepest moments of joy and said it was of the devil and I often wondered if that moment I blasphemed the holy spirit, but what you said reminds me that "the Lord was not in the earthquake" of emotion. That the emotionally charged moments are neither to be worshiped or despised but that we need to build our spiritual house on firmer ground then a few moments of joy.
Chant for years has been popular in music and I remember when the first monks released their CD called simply chant and it changed the music scene quite a bit it is. I loved it!
What’s your take on more traditional gospel music? I feel as though unlike more modern pop style religious music, it creates more of a feeling of reverence. I’d never use it for worship, but for listening to Here’s a link to one of my favourite gospel songs for reference: ruclips.net/video/-zqwV75RNVo/видео.html
You really just have to root out the good from the bad. I have a playlist of contemporary christian music that MOVES my soul to genuine worship, praise, awe, humility, and repentance. It's some of the most amazing things I've witnessed. We have to realize that in a lot of ways, the ancient worship music sounded similar to the pagan or secular music of the times. We just glorify the past a lot. It is an entirely different thing to use those songs in liturgy. It's not the place for that at all. But my heart has been equally if not more-so, moved to worship by the contemporary worship music of our times. Not everyone has to like it or listen to it, but God has used that music to teach me, heal me, humble me, and love me. And that's beautiful.
Question Bojan: is it ok for non-orthodox to do Orthodox things like the morning prayers, getting prayer beads, etc. to better understand Orthodoxy? Or should they wait till catechism and these things are introduced? God bless (I'm also in the middle of binge watching your videos since yesterday. Thank you for all the content)
Not Bojan obviously but byball means pray... learn... live Orthodxy... you will certainly get more out of it under the guidance of a priest but start talking to God now.
Be careful, however, my brother, for there are certain secular and worldly movements such as certain strains of the alt-right, whose politics may agree with some of Orthodoxy's teachings and worldviews, but whose spirit is entirely inimical to her emphasis on humility, repentance, and the slow removal of passions like self-pride, ego, hatred of others, prelest, anger, judging and condemning sinners, thinking one's self spiritually superior or more righteous than other sinners, making a mockery of others, etc. There are even famous speakers and celebrities in such movements who claim an Orthodox identity but who post violent images and pictures filled with hate on their Twitters, RUclipss, etc. mixed in with genuine kernels of Orthodox Christian truth and spirituality. Such things must be opposed in Orthodoxy which allows beauty and truth to speak for itself, and whose pastors humbly beg their flocks on behalf of the Word of God, encouraging them to holiness and building up the Church of Christ. It is not up to the laity to wield the ministry of rebuke and incite hatred and violence against perceived sinners. This is a path that ultimately requires your heart to begin to truly love other people, yes, even strangers and enemies, and to see them as God sees them - with shortcomings, but as his own children Whose salvation He desires very much. If you are joining Orthodoxy for any other reason than to pick up your cross, follow Christ, repent of your sins, known and unknown, as well as grow in your capacity to love, then purify your motives and then approach the baptismal font. Orthodox baptism requires repentance of past sins and a willingness to let go of anything of the world and its trappings and movements and 'isms' and doctrines which are inimical to Christ's example of loving self-sacrifice. His Kingdom is not of this world.
I as Orthodox Christian listen to Christian contemporary music as an alternative for secular music. I do listen the secular music too, but I'm quite picky. I also listen to some Orthodox and Roman Catholic bands, like for example "Eshaton" - Serbian Orthodox metal band.
We listen to it in the car and have ever since my oldest child could understand the lyrics to the music that was playing and started asking uncomfortable questions. I was not even in church at all and was mostly agnostic at that point. I just would rather them hear something positive rather than what was on. Some of it is rather good (check out "100 Billion" by Hillsong United)or and atleast God is in your mind during traffic. I dont listen to it other than in the car though.
Yeah, that became one of my biggest bug bears about worship at my former pentecostal church. Theres no drawing one's mind and soul and heart up towards God, it's just emotional caffeine, sickly sweet and as deep for worship as spilled red bull on a table. It keeps the congregants in an extended if not perpetual state of spiritual infancy. (Then I went to a Baptist church, which was nearly exactly the same just the CCM was dated to the 1980s, so the place was essentially a spiritual nursing home.)
I was raised a Baptist with the old Baptist hymns which were all we knew or had access to (this is not the new "pop" music of today's Evangelical churches. They are still dear to me but they simply can't compare to the holiness of the lyrics and melody of Orthodox chant.
Bojan I have a question ? I have been listening To secular music a lot, especially rap . Is it lawfull To hear it in orthodoxy (outside the church of course) or not?
DBM TV I’m not an authority on this, but I’d say it depends on what is written into the songs. Are they filled with curse words, sexual references and other such explicit messages? Then your answer is likely yes. If not, and it’s mostly completely clean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
DBM TV, I agree with Dimtra P" about modern music. It isn't only rap that is problematic, Country and Western, Blues, Jazz and Rock and Roll*** music as well as Pop music are full of negative messages. You'd almost have to have your own CD of non-negative songs to weed out what is usually broadcast. Actually all styles of music tell some sort of tale/story. Even traditional "Folk" style music has some really lurid tales -- But those are designed as a cautionary tale in the original setting (In Folk-Rock music stanzas are omitted and the gender of the subject changed to reflect the modern era. Sometimes the original lyrics are tossed out and the tune is repurposed. ***"Rock and Roll" refers to the sex act. It was slang used in Blues and Rock-a-(Hill)Billy circles that was coded into the songs, among other phrases. To avoid censorship. Eventually the early to mid-20th century, the arbiters of society began to label such music as the "Devil's Music" because of the sensuous chords (appealing to the physical and emotions) and lyrics.
I'm a musical scholar (PhD candidate) who grew up in a musical family surrounded by Gospel music from various different genres... and over the past few years (now, in my mid-30s), I have reached the same conclusion: that highly emotive and attention-drawing music should not be a part of church worship. As inspirational music during your own private prayers and devotions it's fine (to a point), but I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the biggest mega churches are accompanied by equally prominent - if not more so - musical brands. It's also dangerous that music tends to operate without bounds and oversight, so long as it brings in new congregants. Thanks for this video! :)
Well said! Bojan, I have to agree with you about the Christian pop music. RCC made the mistake, post-Vatican ii of incorporating modern folk-style music in some parishes (after the Latin mass was tossed out). This style of music is not suitable for public worship at the Mass (Divine Liturgy). Other parishes used Protestant hymns. Which are okay for an entrance or recessional hymn (But I prefer the chants) Of course the Norvus Ordo Mass is so very different from the Tridentine (Latin) Mass; that it almost feels like two different churches.
Question. This isn't regarding Protestantism but I was wondering if you could address proper dress code in church, specifically why some orthodox jurisdictions such as the Ukrainians and Russians continue the practice of the women wearing the head kerchief and dresses while others don't care what is worn. Thank you!
Bojan I have found there is an Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church that speaks English 1km from my house (literally same distance as catholic and anglican churches from me). I thought there was none like this in my country and I have written a letter which I will send to them. Any advice on what I am doing or what I am to do? I have believed in orthodoxy for a many months but my experience is none, not even with other churches (except korean baptist church). Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Christ is risen.
Ethan, once the Church reopens it would be worth visiting the Antiochian Church, the best way to approach Orthodoxy is to come and see. By visiting you will also be able to speak to the priest or one of his assistants which will be far more responsive than by writing. You could also try reaching out to them on social media (these accounts are often run by a lay member of the parish) it is good way to get to know people. While our churches are closed (our bishops are careful with the flock) check out this channel ruclips.net/channel/UCfWMaefJYqFEZkYiK2WmeEw it is run by the Abbot of the Monastery of St Antony and Cuthbert which is the monastery for the Antiochian diocese in the UK. Fr Philips sermons are easy to access and the brotherhood is live streaming services while we cannot go to church in the UK so you can get some idea of the worship.
Bojan, would you say that there is a definitive hierarchy of traditional music (non-lyrical specifically) by their spiritual experiential value (esoteric)? Or are they all just too emotional and we should stick with traditional liturgies always in every church/parish? Traditional as in different cultures classical folk music, maybe, Irish Jigs, Slavic/German folk for example? I would include classical too.
@@ianlilley2577 different protestant traditions have different traditional songs. Most have contemporized these and I'm not sure if all of their traditional ones are that common in use either. So start looking for old hymn books if no one can tell you, maybe?
@@ianlilley2577 Baroque and Classical Church organs enabled even small parishes, even those not attached to a monastery, to have music during their worship.
The Rebuild Evangelion ost probably did more to bring me back to Christianity (I had converted to Vajrayana Buddhism two years prior) than Christian pop ever did. Seriously, listen to "God's Gift" and tell me you don't get chills up your spine.
Modern Christian theme music is great for working out or driving, better than listening to popular crap. Worshiping chants are another realm of experience.
In the beginning the music of which you speak was created in order to bring young people back to churches and to Christ. It's nothing new when I was in high school 34 years ago we had a Christian rock band come to the school and play in the auditorium. I was very impressed and I went up and told them so. It meant that young people didn't have to listen to only music that they heard in church but they could have music to dance to at school dances Etc.
I think that you don't give people who listen to that music enough credit. I still went to church every Sunday I still participated fully in my Sunday services and church activities. This was just a side thing that could be listened to or not and I didn't listen to much of it because I was busy with the music of the 1980s the day of the hair bands and it didn't have any effect on my Christianity whatsoever!
I don’t want my spiritual music to sound like matchbox 20 (American band known for being the most unremarkable pop-rock ever but got a lot of publicity despite it from 1996-2005 or so)
im a catholic and even though tons of catholics love to hate on protestant christian songs, there are tons of beautiful songs they have. Hillsong has some really beautiful ones, there is nothing wrong with it. No one can praise the Lord and not do it by the Holy Spirit. Davids wife despised him for dancing like a maniac when he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Even if as Catholics and Orthodox it isnt our style, we shouldnt look down on it, lest we be like Davids wife.
Martin Luther never actually said that. It’s been attributed to many Protestant figures. Martin Luther’s hymns like a mighty fortress is our God can’t be compared to modern contemporary music
I do not think that the modern Christian rock or pop has any place in the church. I was saying that it gave religious teenagers music that they could relate to that was about Christ when they were not in church
I just have to say, if you're a protestant who is held back from converting because you're afraid you will miss pop/rock worship songs... You won't miss them... You just won't. People who convert to Orthodoxy don't usually miss that much of what they left behind, and they almost never miss trivialized aspects of their previous faith: pop-worship, casual dress, etc... If anything, you will just find all those things cringeworthy once you've had your first taste of true spirituality; and by this I don't mean your first liturgy necessarily (although it could happen then!), but your first moving experience in traditional Orthodox prayer. The goal of Orthodox Prayer isn't to have a moving experience, but it often ends up being quite moving anyway. And the moving experiences that you will have will make pop-worship songs seem utterly bland and unappealing.
I suspect that virtually nobody Orthodox is a fan of this kind of music, at least in Church worship! The inclinations that draw us (converts) to the Orthodox heart of the Church [or probably those that are inculcated in "cradle" Orthodox] are those that situate us at 180° from the desire for gratuitous emotion.
Some of it’s alright but for the most part... it ain’t good folks. It’s also not always biblical, which is odd seeing as most protestants profess sola scripture as their foundation. You’d think there’d be more psalms or something written into these songs, but most of them just sound like cheap love songs.
Dimitra P. The old Protestant hymns are Biblical. But those who want the new, pop Christian worship have rejected the style and dignity of the traditional Protestant hymns.
Ok, so how can you inspire something in people without moving them to emotion? Is there no emotion in Orthodox Chants at all? Godly emotions? There are such things. Jesus wept you know. What about “Let my prayer arise” and “My Sinful Soul”(translation)? Are we not supposed to be moved by music? What do humans sing for anyway? What do the Psalms say? They are full of emotions and personal feelings. Don’t get my wrong, I can’t stand Christian Contemporary music, but I will stand by the 500 years of Protestant hymn writings. I love the old hymns, whether they are written by an Anglican, Luther, Watts, Wesley or whoever. The words and the tunes are still beautiful and prayerful even if they weren’t written in a monastery. The old hymns are good, wether they be solemn or joyous. Some of the more solemn tunes I doubt were ever sung in a “tavern.” There are a few types of Protestant hymn singing that put the contemporary music to shame and could rival any Orthodox chant and they are Gaelic Psalm singing and Sacred Harp/Shape Note singing and they are absolutely beautiful and I would encourage anybody to listen to them. Don’t get me wrong, I get your point but I don’t like this vs. that, all or nothing thing going on. I like the Orthodox Chants. I thought the Protestants and Orthodox were allies in our opposition to the Pope. The Pope has tried to subvert Protestantism and Orthodoxy every chance they got. Come on...its Christianity and christians vs the Pope.
Well, in general, modern Evangelical worship songs have nothing to do (or barely have anything to do) with Protestant hymnals. A good Protestant hymn is a far, far cry away from the giddy modern tunes.
Going to have to challenge your history here. Luther said nothing of the sort. If anything that quote goes back about as far as modern evangelical music: the 1970s.
It absolutely shouldn't be used liturgically, outside of that it's just plain bad aesthetically speaking and it's bad that everyone pretends that it sounds good. The only "contemporary" christian music I like is black gospel that has some rhythm and swing to it. the ameriprot white girl stuff is awful.
I think that the Orthodox are right regarding men only on the altar AND making chanting a male-only thing, begun at a young age. Boys don't like doing things that the girls participate in.... That is just the way that little boys are; they do not want to do girl stuff.
Thumbnail is a reference to one of my favorite videos ever:
ruclips.net/video/0H5m9qix0dY/видео.html
The look on the birds face at the end...ive watched it numerous times since you posted
Fantastic videos … Luv that little bird!
Have you heard of the appalachian chant? ruclips.net/video/A1DfyX4tXqw/видео.html
Oh it is lovely!!!
@@jairiske Very beautiful.
I was asked whatbkind of band we had at my Orthodox church. "The heavenly band of angels and archangels" was my reply.
I used to play in a contemporary Christian music band and I don’t like it. It just comes across as bad pop music with the word ‘baby’ replaced with Jesus.
truth. I mean if you're learning bass its like smooth jazz and isn't a bad place to start ,but , its probably more enjoyable to play than smooth jazz, though. Gotta see the good in things, eh?
Yeah, God is my girl/boy friend!
Some of those Christian Pop performers
do not dress very modestly ….. Oh cripes!
I sound like my mother! :P
Homeward Bound that’s another issue I had, especially with younger women singers, although the men had their issues too. I’m not expecting a burqa or anything but at least being mindful of your appearance is important, especially for religious people.
Hah I often hear this complaint!
Well said. Evangelical 46 years, Orthodox 25 years I have some perspective.
I loved being Evangelical up to the point where I realized the song lyrics were largely about me and being happy.
I was starving for worship!
I knew that I had deep wounds, serious questions, glossed over sins that Evangelicals didn’t address.
You weren’t supposed to be unhappy let alone ask questions!
Some Evangelical Churches HIRED singers who could emotionally move the congregation. In one service, the Pastor said he hoped the singer would become a Christian.
(I felt sick!)
I love the fact that Chant isn’t entertainment!
I love worship, asking questions, confession, fasting, hard work on cleaning up my soul!
Some old hymns have deep and beautiful lyrics that often come from liturgical memory. They lead to prayer and worship.
These lyrics used to stir my young heart...
“When we’ve been there a thousand years bright shining as the sun, we’ve no more days to sing God’s praise than when we first began.”
Something else to consider is that the liturgy used in the Orthodox Church is rooted in sacred tradition, intended for internal use and for a specific purpose. Contemporary Christian Music is a multi-million dollar industry that produces music for profit, which must constantly re-adapt itself to the vagaries of consumer preference.
That singing bird meme as the thumbnail 😂
I grew up in California in the 1970s. It was the height of the drug culture. Heavy metal and hard rock were on every corner. Soft rock was beginning to get popular. I left the cult where i was raised and a few years later i became a Christian. When I went to Church not knowing any truth, i found myself immersed into the same musical rot i had always tried to avoid as a youngster. Different words, of course, but the same music. Doing my best to live a Christian life i went to church anyway and suffered through it. Raising my family as best i understood, in this atmosphere which i abhored. Then God convicted me of Orthodoxy. I simply cannot tell you in human eords the relief i feel as i walk into Church on Sunday morning and hear Orthodox hymns and prayers being chanted. The atmosphere is so incredibly devine. And not a single note to remind me of that wretched drug culture.😁
This is a powerful testimony! Thank you for sharing it with us!
Idk man... Agni parthene got a pretty good beet. I could dance to it all day
lol Agreed!
Prior to becoming Orthodox, I was a non-denominational protestant who became a conservative Lutheran later on. I was, and continue to be, very much involved in church music. Here’s my perspective:
The “Praise and Worship” style of contemporary Christian music is, as you say Bojan, very much based on emotion. I would go so far as to say it can be used in an emotionally manipulative way during a service. Using music to raise people’s emotions to a fever pitch in order to stir up love for God, repentance, contrition, or the like, is considered to be true worship.
Over the years, I noticed a marked dumbing down of the content; there were fewer scripture songs, and many more simple, repetitious catch phrase songs. As one friend put it, contemporary Christian music is “a mile wide and an inch deep.” I can’t bring myself to listen to Christian radio stations.
In contrast, Lutheran music (Missouri Synod, in my case) consisted of the greatest hits of 1520, but sounded like “dead music” to the non-denom evangelicals. The hymns are didactic in nature; meaty, but spiked with error in the light of Orthodoxy.
Perhaps contemporary Christian music is OK when you’re sitting around a campfire with your besties, strumming your guitar. I’d prefer to sing “Agni Parthene” myself!
Exactly!
Agni Parthene is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written -a non Christian
Wow. Same faith practice pathway, same observations, same preference. You go, girl!
Kay Brown I had same experience and was a musician in that environment too before I became Orthodox. I totally agree with you.
I heard a former satanist who accepted Christ & now a Protestant told his experience as a member of a satanist cult in the late 80s to early 90s. When he was a satanist, he was actively "recruiting" teenagers & young adults at protestant churches, trying to convert them there into his cult by seducing them, if the victim is the opposing sex, or indirectly hypnotizing them with spells. He said the pop Protestant music made his operation easier because the beat & the style of the music helped him to distract their victim's focus, made them emotional, & gradually forget the worship part.
I've been attending an Orthodox Church for the past 2 months and had attended an Evangelical church for 4.5 years. This is my takeaway from it.
The Evangelical church's music stirred up emotion in me that made me want to dance and pray to God in thanksgiving because I was happy. They changed traditional hymns in order to add more emotional value to the lyrics and to make them more recognizable to the younger audience (this angered me quite a bit, actually). People would raise their hands as they sang and swayed to the music, allowing their emotions to guide them. But it was all the same message; "God, I love you", "Jesus, you are the Savior", "God, you're so great because you never leave me", "God, I will follow you", etc.
St. John Chrysostom's liturgy (that's the only one I've been exposed to at this time) has brought me to my knees crying, begging for mercy from God because I could see how much of a sinner. I beg God to let me be in communion with Him because I have realized that, for my entire life, I was not in communion with Him and I didn't want to be separate from Him.
My thoughts? I'd rather cry and beg for mercy from the realization of how much I need God and the sinner I really am, than smile because I know God loves me. I'd rather have an emotional response from something that isn't supposed to make you have an emotional response. I'd rather continue realizing I'm sinful than smile because I'm forgiven.
Thank you for sharing your first-hand experience with us :-)
It sounds like a concert than worship; there really has to be a distinction between the sacred and profane.
Protestant Evangelical so-called non denominational churches also do subtle things like having a piano quietly playing in the background as the pastor gives his impassioned.plea to come up for the altar call.
As Hank Hill once wisely said "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better, you're just making rock and roll worse"
Is there a non-satanic version of Oops I Did It Again?
Ha! :)
Not really :D
I mean, I feel like "oops, I did it again" every time my pride gets the better of me 😄
Hi Bojan!
Unrelated, but I uploaded some Spanish subtitles for a video on your main channel: Talents of Love, Talents of Hate. I was wondering if you could check them and approve them so Spanish viewers can understand the video? :D
The word "tier" is pronounced "tee-er". It is pronounced in a way such that it rhymes with "tear" as in, when you cry. It doesn't rhyme with "tyre/tire". You can check Google Translate for the pronunciation. You just type the word into one of the boxes and click the sound button in the bottom-right of the box, next to the microphone icon.
Good thoughts, I agree with this experience. I grew up in a Methodist Church, and after coming back to it a second time as a post-college "revert", enjoyed worshipping in a traditional Methodist church. We sang hymns that were scriptural, almost all of which were one, two, or three hundred years old, i.e. time-tested and loved by Christians all over the Protestant world. Then a church I attended after moving to Florida changed everything. Modern music, but what drove me away was that they stopped reciting a creed as the old traditional church did, they stopped saying the Lord's Prayer, and on the less-frequent practice of communion, stopped saying the prayer of repentance and free-formed the rest. But the thing that ended it all for me was when they covered all the windows to create a rock-concert atmosphere and put on a light show. That was so distracting. We used to worship in a sanctuary with a beautiful stained glass window, and now we worshipped in darkness followed by flashing lights. Arggh! And I worked on the Tech Team that put it together. My heart wasn't in it. I wanted to sing in a choir, and I didn't want to sing songs I could hear on the radio after church either. Visited an Orthodox church soon thereafter, and after several visits, became a catachumen, joined the choir and was chrismated into full fellowship about a year and a half later.
What you said about emotions was an interesting take on it. I just came from listing to some of that kind of beautiful music that sirs up emotions and your take gave me a different perspective on it and emotionally charged spiritual moments.
Once in a dark moment of pessimism I turned against on of my deepest moments of joy and said it was of the devil and I often wondered if that moment I blasphemed the holy spirit, but what you said reminds me that "the Lord was not in the earthquake" of emotion. That the emotionally charged moments are neither to be worshiped or despised but that we need to build our spiritual house on firmer ground then a few moments of joy.
Amzing video you have created
why thank you
I feel lucky to have come to orthodoxy so young 23 used to be a mental evangelist
Chant for years has been popular in music and I remember when the first monks released their CD called simply chant and it changed the music scene quite a bit it is. I loved it!
What’s your take on more traditional gospel music? I feel as though unlike more modern pop style religious music, it creates more of a feeling of reverence. I’d never use it for worship, but for listening to
Here’s a link to one of my favourite gospel songs for reference: ruclips.net/video/-zqwV75RNVo/видео.html
You really just have to root out the good from the bad. I have a playlist of contemporary christian music that MOVES my soul to genuine worship, praise, awe, humility, and repentance. It's some of the most amazing things I've witnessed. We have to realize that in a lot of ways, the ancient worship music sounded similar to the pagan or secular music of the times. We just glorify the past a lot.
It is an entirely different thing to use those songs in liturgy. It's not the place for that at all. But my heart has been equally if not more-so, moved to worship by the contemporary worship music of our times. Not everyone has to like it or listen to it, but God has used that music to teach me, heal me, humble me, and love me. And that's beautiful.
Question Bojan: is it ok for non-orthodox to do Orthodox things like the morning prayers, getting prayer beads, etc. to better understand Orthodoxy? Or should they wait till catechism and these things are introduced?
God bless
(I'm also in the middle of binge watching your videos since yesterday. Thank you for all the content)
Not Bojan obviously but byball means pray... learn... live Orthodxy... you will certainly get more out of it under the guidance of a priest but start talking to God now.
@@TheChanceFam Thank you Damon, I appreciate your words very much. They encourage me.
Go ahead. It’s fine!
@@bonniejohnstone Thank you Bonnie
Be careful, however, my brother, for there are certain secular and worldly movements such as certain strains of the alt-right, whose politics may agree with some of Orthodoxy's teachings and worldviews, but whose spirit is entirely inimical to her emphasis on humility, repentance, and the slow removal of passions like self-pride, ego, hatred of others, prelest, anger, judging and condemning sinners, thinking one's self spiritually superior or more righteous than other sinners, making a mockery of others, etc. There are even famous speakers and celebrities in such movements who claim an Orthodox identity but who post violent images and pictures filled with hate on their Twitters, RUclipss, etc. mixed in with genuine kernels of Orthodox Christian truth and spirituality.
Such things must be opposed in Orthodoxy which allows beauty and truth to speak for itself, and whose pastors humbly beg their flocks on behalf of the Word of God, encouraging them to holiness and building up the Church of Christ. It is not up to the laity to wield the ministry of rebuke and incite hatred and violence against perceived sinners. This is a path that ultimately requires your heart to begin to truly love other people, yes, even strangers and enemies, and to see them as God sees them - with shortcomings, but as his own children Whose salvation He desires very much. If you are joining Orthodoxy for any other reason than to pick up your cross, follow Christ, repent of your sins, known and unknown, as well as grow in your capacity to love, then purify your motives and then approach the baptismal font.
Orthodox baptism requires repentance of past sins and a willingness to let go of anything of the world and its trappings and movements and 'isms' and doctrines which are inimical to Christ's example of loving self-sacrifice. His Kingdom is not of this world.
I as Orthodox Christian listen to Christian contemporary music as an alternative for secular music. I do listen the secular music too, but I'm quite picky.
I also listen to some Orthodox and Roman Catholic bands, like for example "Eshaton" - Serbian Orthodox metal band.
Eshaton su carevi! :D
We listen to it in the car and have ever since my oldest child could understand the lyrics to the music that was playing and started asking uncomfortable questions. I was not even in church at all and was mostly agnostic at that point. I just would rather them hear something positive rather than what was on. Some of it is rather good (check out "100 Billion" by Hillsong United)or and atleast God is in your mind during traffic. I dont listen to it other than in the car though.
@Porter Maxwell not sure about the church but if uou listen to that song and find anything wrong with it even theologically i would be surprised.
Yeah, that became one of my biggest bug bears about worship at my former pentecostal church. Theres no drawing one's mind and soul and heart up towards God, it's just emotional caffeine, sickly sweet and as deep for worship as spilled red bull on a table. It keeps the congregants in an extended if not perpetual state of spiritual infancy. (Then I went to a Baptist church, which was nearly exactly the same just the CCM was dated to the 1980s, so the place was essentially a spiritual nursing home.)
Could you do a video about your thoughts concerning the problem of overpopulation and how could it be viewed through orthodox theology of creation?
I was raised a Baptist with the old Baptist hymns which were all we knew or had access to (this is not the new "pop" music of today's Evangelical churches. They are still dear to me but they simply can't compare to the holiness of the lyrics and melody of Orthodox chant.
Bojan I have a question ? I have been listening To secular music a lot, especially rap . Is it lawfull To hear it in orthodoxy (outside the church of course) or not?
DBM TV I’m not an authority on this, but I’d say it depends on what is written into the songs. Are they filled with curse words, sexual references and other such explicit messages? Then your answer is likely yes. If not, and it’s mostly completely clean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
@@dimitrap5615 thanks
DBM TV,
I agree with Dimtra P" about modern music.
It isn't only rap that is problematic, Country
and Western, Blues, Jazz and Rock and Roll***
music as well as Pop music are full of negative
messages. You'd almost have to have your own
CD of non-negative songs to weed out what is
usually broadcast.
Actually all styles of music tell some sort of
tale/story. Even traditional "Folk" style music
has some really lurid tales -- But those are
designed as a cautionary tale in the original
setting (In Folk-Rock music stanzas are
omitted and the gender of the subject changed
to reflect the modern era. Sometimes the
original lyrics are tossed out and the tune
is repurposed.
***"Rock and Roll" refers to the sex act.
It was slang used in Blues and Rock-a-(Hill)Billy
circles that was coded into the songs, among
other phrases. To avoid censorship.
Eventually the early to mid-20th century, the
arbiters of society began to label such music
as the "Devil's Music" because of the sensuous
chords (appealing to the physical and emotions)
and lyrics.
"Satanic version of 'Oops, I Did it Again." 😂 I love that reference
you seriously referenced the birb meme in the thumbnail 🤣
I thought that John Calvin spread the use of strawberry flavored milk and raisin cinnamon bread for the Eucharist.
I'm a musical scholar (PhD candidate) who grew up in a musical family surrounded by Gospel music from various different genres... and over the past few years (now, in my mid-30s), I have reached the same conclusion: that highly emotive and attention-drawing music should not be a part of church worship. As inspirational music during your own private prayers and devotions it's fine (to a point), but I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the biggest mega churches are accompanied by equally prominent - if not more so - musical brands. It's also dangerous that music tends to operate without bounds and oversight, so long as it brings in new congregants. Thanks for this video! :)
Many protestants agree with you on pop music.
This WAS completely true of Catholic Churches before the abomination of “Teens for Life” so called ‘liturgical’ music.
Fascinating to know bro!
your argument from satanism had me rolling bro. I can't help but reluctantly agree XD
Well said! Bojan,
I have to agree with you about the Christian pop music.
RCC made the mistake, post-Vatican ii of incorporating
modern folk-style music in some parishes (after the
Latin mass was tossed out). This style of music is
not suitable for public worship at the Mass (Divine
Liturgy).
Other parishes used Protestant hymns. Which are
okay for an entrance or recessional hymn (But
I prefer the chants)
Of course the Norvus Ordo Mass is so very
different from the Tridentine (Latin) Mass;
that it almost feels like two different
churches.
Question. This isn't regarding Protestantism but I was wondering if you could address proper dress code in church, specifically why some orthodox jurisdictions such as the Ukrainians and Russians continue the practice of the women wearing the head kerchief and dresses while others don't care what is worn. Thank you!
Most jurisdictions prefer women wear head coverings during church, but there isn't a formal dress code
Bojan I have found there is an Antiochian Eastern Orthodox Church that speaks English 1km from my house (literally same distance as catholic and anglican churches from me). I thought there was none like this in my country and I have written a letter which I will send to them. Any advice on what I am doing or what I am to do? I have believed in orthodoxy for a many months but my experience is none, not even with other churches (except korean baptist church). Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Christ is risen.
Ethan, once the Church reopens it would be worth visiting the Antiochian Church, the best way to approach Orthodoxy is to come and see. By visiting you will also be able to speak to the priest or one of his assistants which will be far more responsive than by writing. You could also try reaching out to them on social media (these accounts are often run by a lay member of the parish) it is good way to get to know people.
While our churches are closed (our bishops are careful with the flock) check out this channel ruclips.net/channel/UCfWMaefJYqFEZkYiK2WmeEw it is run by the Abbot of the Monastery of St Antony and Cuthbert which is the monastery for the Antiochian diocese in the UK. Fr Philips sermons are easy to access and the brotherhood is live streaming services while we cannot go to church in the UK so you can get some idea of the worship.
Phoebe Kearns Thank you very very much for the info. I’ll look into it. Christ is risen.
Destroy- Worth fighting for
Bojan, would you say that there is a definitive hierarchy of traditional music (non-lyrical specifically) by their spiritual experiential value (esoteric)? Or are they all just too emotional and we should stick with traditional liturgies always in every church/parish?
Traditional as in different cultures classical folk music, maybe, Irish Jigs, Slavic/German folk for example? I would include classical too.
This has me wondering about my church's music the instruments and way we sing is not pop nor is it traditional so I'm wondering what is it then?
@@ianlilley2577 different protestant traditions have different traditional songs. Most have contemporized these and I'm not sure if all of their traditional ones are that common in use either. So start looking for old hymn books if no one can tell you, maybe?
@@craeddock were catholic tho
@@ianlilley2577 😁😋🙃
@@ianlilley2577
Baroque and Classical
Church organs enabled even small
parishes, even those not attached
to a monastery, to have music during
their worship.
The Rebuild Evangelion ost probably did more to bring me back to Christianity (I had converted to Vajrayana Buddhism two years prior) than Christian pop ever did. Seriously, listen to "God's Gift" and tell me you don't get chills up your spine.
Praying when you don’t want to or even praying sarcastically is a very high form of asceticism.
Modern Christian theme music is great for working out or driving, better than listening to popular crap. Worshiping chants are another realm of experience.
Martin Luther used a bar song tune for the protestant hymn,a mighty fortress is our god.
In the beginning the music of which you speak was created in order to bring young people back to churches and to Christ. It's nothing new when I was in high school 34 years ago we had a Christian rock band come to the school and play in the auditorium. I was very impressed and I went up and told them so. It meant that young people didn't have to listen to only music that they heard in church but they could have music to dance to at school dances Etc.
I think that you don't give people who listen to that music enough credit. I still went to church every Sunday I still participated fully in my Sunday services and church activities. This was just a side thing that could be listened to or not and I didn't listen to much of it because I was busy with the music of the 1980s the day of the hair bands and it didn't have any effect on my Christianity whatsoever!
Your thoughts on the band Batuska? 😂
I don’t want my spiritual music to sound like matchbox 20 (American band known for being the most unremarkable pop-rock ever but got a lot of publicity despite it from 1996-2005 or so)
Satanic version of "ops I did it again"???? That's is already a Satanic music.
lol Agreed!
What are your thoughts on Gospel music?
This was a good one - made me laugh about the blanket comment. Too true!
Hah glad you liked it! :-)
im a catholic and even though tons of catholics love to hate on protestant christian songs, there are tons of beautiful songs they have. Hillsong has some really beautiful ones, there is nothing wrong with it. No one can praise the Lord and not do it by the Holy Spirit. Davids wife despised him for dancing like a maniac when he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Even if as Catholics and Orthodox it isnt our style, we shouldnt look down on it, lest we be like Davids wife.
Martin Luther never actually said that. It’s been attributed to many Protestant figures. Martin Luther’s hymns like a mighty fortress is our God can’t be compared to modern contemporary music
I do not think that the modern Christian rock or pop has any place in the church. I was saying that it gave religious teenagers music that they could relate to that was about Christ when they were not in church
I just have to say, if you're a protestant who is held back from converting because you're afraid you will miss pop/rock worship songs... You won't miss them... You just won't. People who convert to Orthodoxy don't usually miss that much of what they left behind, and they almost never miss trivialized aspects of their previous faith: pop-worship, casual dress, etc... If anything, you will just find all those things cringeworthy once you've had your first taste of true spirituality; and by this I don't mean your first liturgy necessarily (although it could happen then!), but your first moving experience in traditional Orthodox prayer. The goal of Orthodox Prayer isn't to have a moving experience, but it often ends up being quite moving anyway. And the moving experiences that you will have will make pop-worship songs seem utterly bland and unappealing.
lol that meme reference
I suspect that virtually nobody Orthodox is a fan of this kind of music, at least in Church worship! The inclinations that draw us (converts) to the Orthodox heart of the Church [or probably those that are inculcated in "cradle" Orthodox] are those that situate us at 180° from the desire for gratuitous emotion.
I need the satanic version of Oops I did it again.
Some of it’s alright but for the most part... it ain’t good folks. It’s also not always biblical, which is odd seeing as most protestants profess sola scripture as their foundation. You’d think there’d be more psalms or something written into these songs, but most of them just sound like cheap love songs.
Dimitra P.
The old Protestant hymns are Biblical.
But those who want the new, pop
Christian worship have rejected the
style and dignity of the traditional
Protestant hymns.
@Porter Maxwell comments like this remind me to be thankful that Christ is more merciful than his followers... even the "Genuine" ones.
@Porter Maxwell Most likely. I wonder how He feels about people using false equivalence and conflating things under the rouse of dogma though
Ok, so how can you inspire something in people without moving them to emotion? Is there no emotion in Orthodox Chants at all? Godly emotions? There are such things. Jesus wept you know. What about “Let my prayer arise” and “My Sinful Soul”(translation)? Are we not supposed to be moved by music? What do humans sing for anyway? What do the Psalms say? They are full of emotions and personal feelings. Don’t get my wrong, I can’t stand Christian Contemporary music, but I will stand by the 500 years of Protestant hymn writings. I love the old hymns, whether they are written by an Anglican, Luther, Watts, Wesley or whoever. The words and the tunes are still beautiful and prayerful even if they weren’t written in a monastery. The old hymns are good, wether they be solemn or joyous. Some of the more solemn tunes I doubt were ever sung in a “tavern.” There are a few types of Protestant hymn singing that put the contemporary music to shame and could rival any Orthodox chant and they are Gaelic Psalm singing and Sacred Harp/Shape Note singing and they are absolutely beautiful and I would encourage anybody to listen to them. Don’t get me wrong, I get your point but I don’t like this vs. that, all or nothing thing going on. I like the Orthodox Chants. I thought the Protestants and Orthodox were allies in our opposition to the Pope. The Pope has tried to subvert Protestantism and Orthodoxy every chance they got. Come on...its Christianity and christians vs the Pope.
Well, in general, modern Evangelical worship songs have nothing to do (or barely have anything to do) with Protestant hymnals. A good Protestant hymn is a far, far cry away from the giddy modern tunes.
Ok Thanks. Sorry if I seemed a bit angry. I like your channel and I’m glad I found it. God bless.
I don't like it at all because living in a predominantly protestant country I am exposed to it everyday having an overdose of it.
Going to have to challenge your history here. Luther said nothing of the sort. If anything that quote goes back about as far as modern evangelical music: the 1970s.
Sorry but I need to find that satanic Britney song now 😂😂😂
It's neither worship nor music
you made a very erroneous mispeaking at 4:55
Luxury is better
We are supposed to worship God
in spirit and in truth. Our level of
material wealth has nothing to
do with our worship of God.
Their lyrics confuse me
In what sense?
I don't like these happy clappy charismatic music at all whether private or public!
It absolutely shouldn't be used liturgically, outside of that it's just plain bad aesthetically speaking and it's bad that everyone pretends that it sounds good. The only "contemporary" christian music I like is black gospel that has some rhythm and swing to it. the ameriprot white girl stuff is awful.
This WAS completely true of Catholic Churches before the abomination of “Teens for Life” so called ‘liturgical’ music.
I think that the Orthodox are right regarding
men only on the altar AND making chanting
a male-only thing, begun at a young age.
Boys don't like doing things that the girls
participate in.... That is just the way that
little boys are; they do not want to do girl
stuff.
@@homewardbound8327 Orthodoxs don't do men-only chanting even during Divine Liturgy