If you got it, check out the 3rd edition support book Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book, it has rules for simplified and quicker Rigging and Decking. It's a godsend to the gamemaster for speeding up play.
Playing with a full group of mages and shamans, or deckers, or even riggers, have been the best experiences ive had in 20 years of playing SR3. Specialized characters for specific kinds of missions and learning each subsystem in detail, as if they were different games.
So, I ran (and played) a lot of SR3 and here's what I did. 1) I never bothered to learn rigger rules. Our resident rigger player provided me with everything I needed and they were very trustworthy. That was why I never needed to learn it. 2) I ran radically simplified NPCs. Basically mooks, generalized mass enemies had a level and whenever they made a check, they used that level. No pools, no nothing. Armor? Lvl. Initiative: 1d6+Lvl. Higher level goons might get an extra die or two if that made sense. The only specific thing they got was weapons. Poor Bob the night security guy was L4, trained antagonists got L6 and the system would top out around L8, anything beyond that usually got actual stats. 3) I only ran matrix in detail when it was really central and then I tried to run it concurrently with meat world battles. Same with astral space encounters, but those would usually resolve much faster than matrix stuffs. Everything else was computer checks and seeing if they had the right programs. 4) Don't attempt ban individual items of crunch. If you think a character is too strong due to optimized combinations, talk to the player, but in mostly just let them run what they want. Part of being a bad ass shadowrunner is getting to mow through mooks like butter from time to time. Flex those muscle toners! 5) It's really important to understand how target number modifiers work statistically. Getting +1 TN can have very different impact. Going from 2 to 3 harms your success chances less that going from 3 to 4 and so on, until you hit TN6. TN5 to TN6 cuts your expected successes in half. Going from TN6 to TN8 makes them slightly worse. Finally it bears repeating that this game absolutely requires investment from your players. There is no way around this. If you are not wiling to learn the game, don't play it. You need to be able to carry your own weight or everything will bog down quickly. As an aside, I think this tendency to find players who are unwilling to do their homework and learn the game is almost the only downside to the massive surge in popularity that has engulfed our hobby.
3rd edition shadowrun is absolutely my favorite edition. I really like how you pointed to at least knowing a section like rigging or the matrix but having the player who is interested in those areas helping you as Gm understand it. I like some advice I got in regards to the matrix and magic. Use Npcs to fill the gaps as the party learns the different systems and start with one area and expand from there. Eventually the party will fill itself out
If you do plan on running 3rd edition, one of the first things I would suggest is the Shadowrun Companion. It provides more flexible options for character creation.
Highly recommend Shadowrun Companion once you have a grasp on the 3E system. Priority character generation system present in the main is great for new players. I would suggest not allowing any riggers or deckers until you really have the core system mechanics down. Sadly one of the big 3E flaws anything to do with ‘serious’ decking means the rest of the group go gets food and comes back in 30-60m while you do the decking bit. Also the spell Trid Phantasm can be abused if you let an inventive power gamer get carried away.
Appreciate the honest review. Sounds like some great advice. I have played later editions (mostly 5th) several times, but have not run Shadowrun as GM. The setting is fantastic and the stories that emerge from playing Shadowrun are very different from D&D. I have had fun with Shadowrun! That's why we play games and Shadowrun seems to deliver. I would like to hear more with your experiences with some of the other Shadowrun books.
Our group is finally heading back to the shadows. 3rd ed is our edition, we started playing during 2nd, upgraded to 3rd and never saw a reason to change.
I love shadowrun been playing since 1st ed run since 2nd ed stuck with a 2nd 3rd ed mash up a sort of 2.75 (as it's more 3rd than 2nd) with a few house rules and my own version of initiative 👍
That bookmark was from the Shadowrun action figure game. It was a 6 inch figure line that was awesome. The game was made by the same people that made Heroclix. It came with a giant clix base and used all the DnD dice. Game wasn't really playable but the figures were good. Nice review!
@@RPGOverviews To follow up after I finished your review I love Shadowrun. 3rd edition was the version I got in on. I picked up 4th but couldn't get into the wireless world. A couple of the things you pointed out that I found interesting involved the combat. I always felt this game and Cyberpunk 2020 were super dangerous worlds. The only way your players will find that out is if you push it to the max. Its jarring at first when any henchman can kill a PC. Its disheartening when you spend forever making a character and they die in the first combat but it's a good lesson for sure. If your coming from newer editions of DnD then its especially jarring. Now if you don't want to tpk a party that's what ripper docs and meat wagons are for. I find a little plot armor and a new cybernetic body part go a long way into teaching hard lessons and reinvesting your players. Especially if they cant afford the new tech and owe a Johnson. As for Deckers I usually will just make them hire a npc who works remotely from a van. If a player wants to run a Decker I usually truncate the whole ordeal into a couple of skill checks. Deckers are just too much for new players. You are spot on with Shadowrun being better if players are helping you out as the Dm. Maybe one day I might meet those players since I only run my wife and a couple of our family members in ttrpgs every blue moon. Thanks again and sorry for the rant. I really do love Shadowrun but Cyberpunk 2020 is a better fit for my players since it's all around easier. New sub here.
The Shadowrun video game on Genesis was my introduction to true cyberpunk, but I've never spent much time with the pen and paper game. This is a great overview of the system, and I love your input on flow and rule modification. Will definitely take this into account if I ever get around to playing a campaign.
Great rundown. I also scrounged around online and ordered a bunch of 3rd Edition content as well as some other editions, including 6e. My sense is that with so many contradictory opinions (most people liking 3/4, fewer liking 5, and yes I have found even a couple commentators who like some aspects of 6), the best thing to do is to just saturate in the lore and try as best as possible to take best of breed from each edition, homebrewing liberally. I ran D&D 5e for some time, and even with that streamlined system I used a lot of house rules and handwaved a good amount to minimize out-of-game time.
SR6 is the DnD 4ed of Shadowrun. 3 is super solid and I think has the better SR feel 5 is my preference, but later 5 lore is getting a bit meh, so 5e but with earlier lore (closer to the UGE/Goblinization) is my sweet spot.
The issue is not really the crunchiness with games like these, but finding players who are willing to invest. And you funnily said "back in the days where you weren't distracted by many things" and that is true :D There is just too much media out there today, which makes it even harder to find players. I like the dice pool system and regarding the different rules for magic and rigging I think that is why systems like D6 are great. They don't try to simulate everything but just got a pretty straight forward "general way" of how to resolve everything. You won't find much different subsystems. You have to describe things in a way that you can resolve them with the standard way :-) We are playing SR5 Edition and while I loved the feel of SR2 (which I think was the nicest PnP I've ever played, the rule book was just epic) I'm glad that I found a group that is willing to play SR at all :D
Well said! Good job on finding a group to play, a challenging feat. I am glad that some alternative games have been released that also have fantasy aspects like SR. My next Overview video will be on such a game, stay tuned!
29:25 We had a whole campaign where we hired npc deckers to do their work offsite … we make a request and the decker works on it … 1,000-5,000 nuyen depending on risk is what our GM went with
My most loathed rule is the 2d6 mini grenade scatter rule. GM: “You land the minigrenade right at the feet of the bad guy 8m away. It bounces …. 9m….. towards you…” Player: “F*ck”
Your mgl6 and 12 - the only things in game that shoot mini grenades in 3rd - come with a rangefinder. They don't scatter. Mini grenades and be primed and thrown (or planted) manually. *Then* they scatter.
I'm glad this video showed up in my feed. I've been GMing 5th E for a while but I've been very interested in the older editions. One thing I'd like to know is what can deckers do during combat. In 5e with a lot of things being wireless deckers always have the option of messing with enemy weapons and gear. Is there anything like that for them to do like that?
Hey thanks for checking out the video and the question. While I’m no expert in 3e I haven’t seen anything like messing with enemy and gear. 3e having deckers being wired in limits that. But then again I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen references that (of the books I’ve looked at). Mainly they do their normal matrix espionage but they have to go on the run with the group usually and are in the thick of it combat wise obviously before and after they jack in. Messing with an enemies weapons or gear does sound cool though.
I want to point out, Catalysts don’t own ShadowRun. Hasbro Topps do. Catalyst are just the publisher, it’s possible that they aren’t the one who block print on demand on drivethrurpg
3e has the best "flavour". Indians, Orcs, Elves... 4e has the better rule system. Point based, with the extra rule books, you can make some outlandish characters. Suffers from "we're trenchcoat mercenaries" and it all gets a bit grimdark in places. Lot's of foreshadowing big events, which is fun for the DM to riff on. 5e. forget about it. 6e shouldn't even have been made.
Completely agree to the points you made here. Heck, I introduced a couple complete newcomers to Shadowrun with 4th edition about two years ago (with a bit of IRL-related hiatus in between). And we are having a blast with it. I am looking forward to the anecdotes my players are going to form over time. I know I have plenty from when I played myself long ago. The only 5e book I use is a sourcebook about the sprawl my campaign is currently located in. Other than that? Screw 5e - and don't even mention 6e. They lost me when they tossed point-buy out the window and further limited options by limiting successes you could get.
Played 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition. 3 was great but felt quite dated at some point. The addition of Wifi made things a lot more "integrated". The Decker now can be "in the field" hacking enemy gear. The Matrix is something that every character can use via trodes and is everywhere due to AR. Personally I really love the 5th edition. It's still an incredibly crunchy game and suffers from a lot of the issues you already mentioned here. Namely that the game master needs all the help they can get from the players regarding the massive amount of rules. 6th edition is a real disappointment in my book, even now when people claim Catalyst has fixed it. I don't think they did.
thanks for the info. I almost feel like at some point shadowrun should have just been a setting and let other people try to figure out a system that works and isn't bogged down and heavy.
@@RPGOverviews I've heard there are a lot of people that already do that. I'm somewhat okay with the system. Yeah, it's clunky but I think a lot of it can be attributed to the wide range of things it's trying to cover. The Matrix rules got easier to digest in some places in later editions and a bit reliant on tables of actions in others. But to be honest, I think magic is also a pretty big contender for over complicating rules. I mean a lot of spells have their own rules… But yeah it's a huge mess of rules with an awesome setting, and a lot of folks shy away from it because of the complexity. Heck, I'm going on a tangent here :D
If you got it, check out the 3rd edition support book Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book, it has rules for simplified and quicker Rigging and Decking. It's a godsend to the gamemaster for speeding up play.
Thanks I got it and it helped me out. Thanks for the suggestion.
Playing with a full group of mages and shamans, or deckers, or even riggers, have been the best experiences ive had in 20 years of playing SR3. Specialized characters for specific kinds of missions and learning each subsystem in detail, as if they were different games.
That’s great congrats!
So, I ran (and played) a lot of SR3 and here's what I did.
1) I never bothered to learn rigger rules. Our resident rigger player provided me with everything I needed and they were very trustworthy. That was why I never needed to learn it.
2) I ran radically simplified NPCs. Basically mooks, generalized mass enemies had a level and whenever they made a check, they used that level. No pools, no nothing. Armor? Lvl. Initiative: 1d6+Lvl. Higher level goons might get an extra die or two if that made sense. The only specific thing they got was weapons. Poor Bob the night security guy was L4, trained antagonists got L6 and the system would top out around L8, anything beyond that usually got actual stats.
3) I only ran matrix in detail when it was really central and then I tried to run it concurrently with meat world battles. Same with astral space encounters, but those would usually resolve much faster than matrix stuffs. Everything else was computer checks and seeing if they had the right programs.
4) Don't attempt ban individual items of crunch. If you think a character is too strong due to optimized combinations, talk to the player, but in mostly just let them run what they want. Part of being a bad ass shadowrunner is getting to mow through mooks like butter from time to time. Flex those muscle toners!
5) It's really important to understand how target number modifiers work statistically. Getting +1 TN can have very different impact. Going from 2 to 3 harms your success chances less that going from 3 to 4 and so on, until you hit TN6. TN5 to TN6 cuts your expected successes in half. Going from TN6 to TN8 makes them slightly worse.
Finally it bears repeating that this game absolutely requires investment from your players. There is no way around this. If you are not wiling to learn the game, don't play it. You need to be able to carry your own weight or everything will bog down quickly. As an aside, I think this tendency to find players who are unwilling to do their homework and learn the game is almost the only downside to the massive surge in popularity that has engulfed our hobby.
You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for watching and commenting! Excellent tips!
3rd edition shadowrun is absolutely my favorite edition. I really like how you pointed to at least knowing a section like rigging or the matrix but having the player who is interested in those areas helping you as Gm understand it.
I like some advice I got in regards to the matrix and magic. Use Npcs to fill the gaps as the party learns the different systems and start with one area and expand from there. Eventually the party will fill itself out
Agreed very much a team game!
If you do plan on running 3rd edition, one of the first things I would suggest is the Shadowrun Companion. It provides more flexible options for character creation.
Thanks I appreciate the suggestion!
Highly recommend Shadowrun Companion once you have a grasp on the 3E system. Priority character generation system present in the main is great for new players. I would suggest not allowing any riggers or deckers until you really have the core system mechanics down. Sadly one of the big 3E flaws anything to do with ‘serious’ decking means the rest of the group go gets food and comes back in 30-60m while you do the decking bit. Also the spell Trid Phantasm can be abused if you let an inventive power gamer get carried away.
Appreciate the honest review. Sounds like some great advice.
I have played later editions (mostly 5th) several times, but have not run Shadowrun as GM. The setting is fantastic and the stories that emerge from playing Shadowrun are very different from D&D. I have had fun with Shadowrun! That's why we play games and Shadowrun seems to deliver.
I would like to hear more with your experiences with some of the other Shadowrun books.
Thanks! I will definitely do videos on some of the other Shadowrun books. I appreciate the comment and watching the vid, even if it was a little long.
@@RPGOverviews I didn't think that it was too long. I have watched it twice! :)
Excellent video. Bit of info, that cover was painted by Paul Bonner. It was stolen from FASAs HQ and is still missing to this day.
Thanks! Wow I didn’t know that, good info.
3rd has some of the best art!
Our group is finally heading back to the shadows. 3rd ed is our edition, we started playing during 2nd, upgraded to 3rd and never saw a reason to change.
Nice that sounds great. Hope it goes well.
I enjoy challenging games, great review, thank you!
Thank you very much, this one is quite challenging!
I love shadowrun been playing since 1st ed run since 2nd ed stuck with a 2nd 3rd ed mash up a sort of 2.75 (as it's more 3rd than 2nd) with a few house rules and my own version of initiative 👍
That bookmark was from the Shadowrun action figure game. It was a 6 inch figure line that was awesome. The game was made by the same people that made Heroclix. It came with a giant clix base and used all the DnD dice. Game wasn't really playable but the figures were good. Nice review!
Great thanks for the info on that bookmark. I think I’ve seen those figures on eBay. Thanks for watching!
@@RPGOverviews To follow up after I finished your review I love Shadowrun. 3rd edition was the version I got in on. I picked up 4th but couldn't get into the wireless world. A couple of the things you pointed out that I found interesting involved the combat. I always felt this game and Cyberpunk 2020 were super dangerous worlds. The only way your players will find that out is if you push it to the max. Its jarring at first when any henchman can kill a PC. Its disheartening when you spend forever making a character and they die in the first combat but it's a good lesson for sure. If your coming from newer editions of DnD then its especially jarring. Now if you don't want to tpk a party that's what ripper docs and meat wagons are for. I find a little plot armor and a new cybernetic body part go a long way into teaching hard lessons and reinvesting your players. Especially if they cant afford the new tech and owe a Johnson.
As for Deckers I usually will just make them hire a npc who works remotely from a van. If a player wants to run a Decker I usually truncate the whole ordeal into a couple of skill checks. Deckers are just too much for new players. You are spot on with Shadowrun being better if players are helping you out as the Dm. Maybe one day I might meet those players since I only run my wife and a couple of our family members in ttrpgs every blue moon. Thanks again and sorry for the rant. I really do love Shadowrun but Cyberpunk 2020 is a better fit for my players since it's all around easier. New sub here.
The Shadowrun video game on Genesis was my introduction to true cyberpunk, but I've never spent much time with the pen and paper game. This is a great overview of the system, and I love your input on flow and rule modification. Will definitely take this into account if I ever get around to playing a campaign.
Thanks hope it helps someone either make their game better or know if it’s the right game for them.
Great rundown. I also scrounged around online and ordered a bunch of 3rd Edition content as well as some other editions, including 6e. My sense is that with so many contradictory opinions (most people liking 3/4, fewer liking 5, and yes I have found even a couple commentators who like some aspects of 6), the best thing to do is to just saturate in the lore and try as best as possible to take best of breed from each edition, homebrewing liberally.
I ran D&D 5e for some time, and even with that streamlined system I used a lot of house rules and handwaved a good amount to minimize out-of-game time.
Yeah that’s probably the best way to go, to make the game yours.
Very nice job with the video!!!!!
Thank you and thanks for watching!
SR6 is the DnD 4ed of Shadowrun.
3 is super solid and I think has the better SR feel
5 is my preference, but later 5 lore is getting a bit meh, so 5e but with earlier lore (closer to the UGE/Goblinization) is my sweet spot.
That’s what I’ve heard from some other people. Thanks for commenting.
What's an alternative to shadowrun that includes fantasy races in a futuristic setting?
Check Wetwired out ruclips.net/video/wqhsIA4JBJQ/видео.htmlsi=FOcac67TXgENpEPP
The issue is not really the crunchiness with games like these, but finding players who are willing to invest. And you funnily said "back in the days where you weren't distracted by many things" and that is true :D There is just too much media out there today, which makes it even harder to find players. I like the dice pool system and regarding the different rules for magic and rigging I think that is why systems like D6 are great. They don't try to simulate everything but just got a pretty straight forward "general way" of how to resolve everything. You won't find much different subsystems. You have to describe things in a way that you can resolve them with the standard way :-) We are playing SR5 Edition and while I loved the feel of SR2 (which I think was the nicest PnP I've ever played, the rule book was just epic) I'm glad that I found a group that is willing to play SR at all :D
Well said! Good job on finding a group to play, a challenging feat. I am glad that some alternative games have been released that also have fantasy aspects like SR. My next Overview video will be on such a game, stay tuned!
29:25 We had a whole campaign where we hired npc deckers to do their work offsite … we make a request and the decker works on it … 1,000-5,000 nuyen depending on risk is what our GM went with
That’s a great idea!
My most loathed rule is the 2d6 mini grenade scatter rule. GM: “You land the minigrenade right at the feet of the bad guy 8m away. It bounces …. 9m….. towards you…” Player: “F*ck”
Yeah that’s not ideal. 😮
Your mgl6 and 12 - the only things in game that shoot mini grenades in 3rd - come with a rangefinder. They don't scatter.
Mini grenades and be primed and thrown (or planted) manually. *Then* they scatter.
I'm glad this video showed up in my feed. I've been GMing 5th E for a while but I've been very interested in the older editions. One thing I'd like to know is what can deckers do during combat. In 5e with a lot of things being wireless deckers always have the option of messing with enemy weapons and gear. Is there anything like that for them to do like that?
Hey thanks for checking out the video and the question. While I’m no expert in 3e I haven’t seen anything like messing with enemy and gear. 3e having deckers being wired in limits that. But then again I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen references that (of the books I’ve looked at). Mainly they do their normal matrix espionage but they have to go on the run with the group usually and are in the thick of it combat wise obviously before and after they jack in. Messing with an enemies weapons or gear does sound cool though.
Yeah in the time of 3E when it comes to decking everything is hardwired.
I want to point out, Catalysts don’t own ShadowRun. Hasbro Topps do. Catalyst are just the publisher, it’s possible that they aren’t the one who block print on demand on drivethrurpg
4ed is my favorite. Priority system drove me nuts because if you wanted to be a mage you were invariable dirt poor every time
I can see that being a problem. Thanks for watching and commenting.
3e has the best "flavour". Indians, Orcs, Elves...
4e has the better rule system. Point based, with the extra rule books, you can make some outlandish characters. Suffers from "we're trenchcoat mercenaries" and it all gets a bit grimdark in places. Lot's of foreshadowing big events, which is fun for the DM to riff on.
5e. forget about it.
6e shouldn't even have been made.
Thanks for the insight!
Completely agree to the points you made here. Heck, I introduced a couple complete newcomers to Shadowrun with 4th edition about two years ago (with a bit of IRL-related hiatus in between). And we are having a blast with it. I am looking forward to the anecdotes my players are going to form over time. I know I have plenty from when I played myself long ago.
The only 5e book I use is a sourcebook about the sprawl my campaign is currently located in. Other than that? Screw 5e - and don't even mention 6e. They lost me when they tossed point-buy out the window and further limited options by limiting successes you could get.
Are you still trying it?
Unfortunately my group just didn’t gel with the system and they bailed on it.
@RPGOverviews is always sad to hear
Played 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition. 3 was great but felt quite dated at some point. The addition of Wifi made things a lot more "integrated". The Decker now can be "in the field" hacking enemy gear. The Matrix is something that every character can use via trodes and is everywhere due to AR. Personally I really love the 5th edition. It's still an incredibly crunchy game and suffers from a lot of the issues you already mentioned here. Namely that the game master needs all the help they can get from the players regarding the massive amount of rules. 6th edition is a real disappointment in my book, even now when people claim Catalyst has fixed it. I don't think they did.
thanks for the info. I almost feel like at some point shadowrun should have just been a setting and let other people try to figure out a system that works and isn't bogged down and heavy.
@@RPGOverviews I've heard there are a lot of people that already do that. I'm somewhat okay with the system. Yeah, it's clunky but I think a lot of it can be attributed to the wide range of things it's trying to cover. The Matrix rules got easier to digest in some places in later editions and a bit reliant on tables of actions in others. But to be honest, I think magic is also a pretty big contender for over complicating rules. I mean a lot of spells have their own rules… But yeah it's a huge mess of rules with an awesome setting, and a lot of folks shy away from it because of the complexity. Heck, I'm going on a tangent here :D
I have heard at least one fellow, channel name TheBurgerKrieg, state the system is poor and he's using a different game system to play shadowrun.
I completely understand changing the system. It’s a lot.