Reading Your Horse Comments
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2024
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Here's the video that I'm reading the comments from:
• Horse Training Methods...
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You have got to be one of the most humble RUclipsrs I have ever seen. You did not come at the people in the comments telling them they were wrong in their thinking or that people are terrible horse owners if they use different training techniques than you (as long as they are not abusing the horse). You very very politely showed us your views and also showed us that you took in the comments and learned something from it and it actually is making you more interest in learning about some of their suggestions and comments. Not a lot of people would do that and even less would post an entire video about it... I love watching you, I love watching your horses and I enjoy every video!
I think it’s important to realise that horses don’t owe us anything. Why shouldn’t they get to say no?
Agree
Of course, I think the same. It's just great to see horses willing to do stuff with you without any pressure, and working on positive reinforcement. Or just saying they don't want to do anything today, and it's just wonderful to see owners understanding that! But anyway, sometimes there are dangerous situations or situations, when you need a vet help, and I belive that if you add some pressure due to health issues etc, it is still for your horses best care.
I guess it's best when the ownership and riding is based on mutual understanding, at least on understanding what your horse need and what it's willing and capable of doing. I belive that's where the real fun starts, trying to be a partner, sometimes an understanding leader, but definitely not a boss to your horse 🙂
But still, the owner/rider needs to be really wise about when to let go, and when a bit of pressure is needed so that everyone stay safe :)
I think it depends on how you use it. Saying "no" for me is him refusing to work or train. In that situation, I would not punish him, but I would simply put him back in his enclosure and free time would be over. If he simply is struggling to work on something specific but he is still trying to work with me, I would just consider what I have done to prepare him. He is clearly not ready to do what I want him to. Instead of letting him say "no" I would work with him on simpler things and build him up from very basic things until he could do the taskci originally wanted. There is a difference in not letting them say "no" and forcing them into doing something uncomfortable when they aren't ready. In the situations mentioned by the comments read in the video, they didn't actually take no for an answer. They just did exactly what they should have done and slowly worked with the horse until the answer was yes. They should be allowed to express their dislike for something, but us as trainers should try to help them grow and teach them confidence and skill
@@MP_Equine_editz True. Accepting a "no" is more like accepting a "not yet." Sometimes this looks like going back to simpler things the same day and session like you said and sometimes it looks like allowing them the "no" for the day knowing you're going to work on getting the "yes" another day.
I am curious what you mean by "free time would be over" though when you put the horse away? Simply because I wouldn't label interactions with humans as free time for the horse, and most horses would find being put away as great reinforcement (that is of course unless you're talking about a stall?).
@@letheanlove ok. So about the free time. What I meant was that I work with my pony in the grazing pasture and since he's retired we just do slow and easy trick training and exercises. He much prefers being out in the grazing pasture knowing that I will work with him and if he does well he gets to stay there and graze. For a performance horse the training would probably be done in an arena and grazing field is outside. In my situation, working is his freedom from the smaller, fenced in portion of the field with less grass since he's in it most often and he's eaten down most grass in it. He then get complete freedom and is able to graze freely when he does what I ask. I rarely set him up to fail so I rarely get a no. But when I do, he goes in the fence, or we work on it. If he refuses to work with me at all, his pasture time is completely over. If he just messes up or is struggling with something specific, it's my fault for doing something he's not ready for, and I do something more his level that I know he can do, we end on a "yes" and he gets to graze until dinner time. So yes. For me, in my specific situation, I am able to make training, his freedom. He does not enjoy being put back in his smaller fence and he is typically a lot happier outside in his grassy field. Slowly I've taught him that being corporative wins him freedom and stubborness gets him back in the fence. It's not fair to punish him if he doesn't work for me. It's not my right to have him work for me. I can only encourage him to choose a better option for himself and try to make it as fun, relaxing, and rewarding as possible for him to train with me. If anything I say is confusing, feel free to ask me more questions🙃
You should totally do a collab with Gypsy Equestrian. You mentioned you're not a fan of positive reinforcement training, and she's an expert in that. You could have a great convo. She's in texas so it would have to be over zoom but i think it could be so educational
Yessss!
I bet your mom is so proud of you. I have watched yt creators who were much older than you talk down to those whose comments differ from his opinion, as if he knew all there was to know about horses. I just stopped watching him because of the condescending remarks & the need to correct every new horse lover who maybe didn't fully understand horse behavior. You are refreshing in this yt culture of being critical & down right offensive. Thank you for showing the other creators how it's done, young lady. We should always be willing to listen & learn from others.
Good on you Carmela for reading those comments. They were all excellent. And I think you're right that in most cases "letting the horse say no" isn't literal and absolute. It means you acknowledge the horse's concern about something, and respond to it by backing off temporarily, and not forcing the horse forward (or whatever) before he's ready. IMO Warwick Schiller's single most important contribution to the discussion of horse training is his strong belief in letting the horse say no. He has numerous videos on it, my favorite of which is when he lets their highly trained but introverted reining stallion Rey sidestep waves (under saddle) and decide for himself when he's ready to venture into the water. A more mundane situation from my own life is approaching a horse with a saddle. Maybe they don't feel like being ridden that day, but if you approach a horse with a saddle and get a reaction -- a head swing toward you, or the horse moving away from you -- you stop and wait. Maybe do that a couple times. After a few minutes the horse realizes two things: One, you SEE them, and understand them; and, two, that it's probably going to happen, eventually LOL. So they get with the program. I haven't seen the video you're referring to but now I'm very curious. Great job here.
I love your way of thinking - how it allows the horse 🐴 to absorb what's being asked of him/her. And love that you don't depend on aides, like spurs. You explain things well. Enjoy your videos.
In my experience, when horses first realize they can say no; they are like a toddler. They say no to everything. So it may feel like you are regressing in training at first. We always ask our horses the same question 3 times in slightly different ways with pauses between asks. If you get 3 No’s, then it’s up to us to figure out why we are getting that hard no.
Once you establish a willingness to listen, the horse will start to give yes responses to asks. It’s not fast and can be ego crushing. They don’t say no to reject you. They are rejecting that ask in that moment. So you break it down like you did with Tucker and Rouak with the tarp. Keep asking that same question. Example: Will you look at the tarp? When you get that, ask if they can walk up to the tarp. When you get that, you ask for one hoof on the tarp. And so on.
We can say no and walk away without aggression. They learn they can do the same. Horses are social creatures like we are. So connect on that level. We care about them and they learn to care about us. Giving horses choice doesn’t take away from us in the long term. Short term, we don’t always get what we want right away. Long term, they look to us for what we want to do each day.
Nice I got a new horse today ❤❤
Wow cool!
Congrats! I wish you the best!
@@EquineHelper ty
Lucky i might be getting a loan for my birthday😊
I dont think a horse doesnt do something JUST because he "doesnt feel like it". There is always a reason, no matter how big or small to us - buddy sour, achy back, sore foot, too dark, too much sunlight, flies, something in the brush, previous training trauma or mishap in past, etc.
Concise video Carmella, the old adage of our horses owe us nothing is true in part. However, they want to work with us, learn with us, try with us, my mare may say no, but I ask myself why? I believe repertion like you state is the key. Learning pressure, be it leg or simple tools, is far better than spurs. We all occasionally require training aids but best for the bare minimum. Liking the fly masks. Fiamma isn't keen on them, but she is learning quickly. ❤
Wise words! Cheers 🙂
Allowing my horse to say no is less about the no and more about allowing him to reveal his inner feelings about something so I can help shape his inner reality and/or judge his mind that day (similar to a quick lunge before riding). If I bulldoze past his no, sure, he can learn to suck it up and accept whatever I am asking -- but this often amounts to mere tolerance, not willingness.
There's always a reason for the no and it can be something as benign as they're tired and would rather not interact, but horses largely want to cooperate and be compliant because it is the nature of a prey animal.
This distinction is important to me because my personal goal is this: creating a willing participant while engaging in guilt-free horsemanship (using coercive methods outside black and black-and-white issues of safety has a severe negative effect on me and my own emotional regulation). I have the luxury of being able to care about and cultivate his emotional world because he is simply my pet and so I do.
It's worth noting though that my horse is a young bottom-of-the-herd sensitive type who withdraws and goes into shutdown SO fast. Having a voice and letting him feel heard has done wonders for our relationship and his confidence. We had such a rocky start, I can cry just thinking about how far we have come despite only being in each other's lives for a mere year. I honestly did not set out to incorporate consent into our interactions -- I believed it was something I would never do and didn't understand it. Now I can't imagine life without it. It truly has made my interactions with my horse safer because it has given us such a clear language in which to communicate. Much less is lost in translation!
The goal of allowing a no is ultimately building trust so when you do need to insist they trust you're looking out for them because you've proven your competency by showing them you understand them. It's like depositing funds into a savings account to take away from when you need it. I highly recommend it for cooperative care at the very least, as it's a great place to start whether you want to end there or move further into this perspective. Personally, I ride the middle.
On some horses I do use spurs, simply because they aren't responsive enough to my aides, especially if I happen to sit on a horse that requires stronger aides than I am used to.
I do have strong legs, I just really don't like giving strong aides, so when I happen to sit on a horse that is used to stronger aides (lack of training or not), spurs come in handy. I prefer "invisible" aides, using just the lightest pressure - which is less struggle on my part and no harm for the horse -, so both participants are happy and undestand each other. Yes, horses are all capable of learning to understand anything and listen better, but for some, it is a progress. I don't use spurs as a weapon of course, more like a teaching tool, as I can still get results this way. Using spurs doesn't mean you have to use them forever. As for me, later in the training I just remove the spurs and have a responsive horse.
I had a horse that was so sensitive that I could turn her using mostly my bodyweight (she was ridden with spurs before I got her), but I also have another horse that had patches of lacking fur on his sides from the rider's excessive amount of leg rubbing and kicking. Now he has white fur there.
When I went to see him the first time, I asked the owner about it and whether he had used spurs or not. He said "Oh, he doesn't need spurs!". When I sat on for a ride, there was a point when the horse just stopped and didn't want to move despite my aides. Well, I bought him anyway, and the first time I sat on him at home, I put on spurs. No issues since than, and he understood that leg aides aren't for nagging.
So, yeah, riding without spurs is probably ideal, but in reality, there can be cases when they are useful, especially for those like me, who prefer riding through "thought transfer".
Ryan Rose has a really good explanation of "releasing the horse to" whatever it is that they are not wanting to do. He has a good video on trailering in particular. The one sentence version is setting them up so that the trailer is a rest place and outside is work. But go dig into that for some more info!
What you're describing is not a simple martingale. It's a standing martingale. A martingale has two rings where the rains are going through. Probably set the martingale has only any force on the horse if the horse would rise its head up very high, and I only have seen that in horse who are out of control.
I really appreciate you making this video! I love how you are willing to reconsider things and don't just stubbornly hold to one opinion! The ideas you discussed in this video are definitely new to me too and definitely something to think about!
I’ve definitely had times where my mare said no for ‘no reason’. I didn’t nesecarily leave her alone, I just changed the question or waited before asking again. I think the extra time taken is worth it in the long run for a relationship with your horse. When it’s *her* choice, it makes the things she likes and doesn’t like much more obvious to me. However, there’s still things we’re working on where I haven’t figured out a gentler way of handling it and I can’t just wait. For example, lunging at grass. I tried Warwick Schiller’s method with little success- Even though he’s a phenomenal trainer. So we still have hurdles where she can’t literally always choose exactly what to do.
Think about it like this- With toddlers, it’s common to pose a request as a question with choices. Do you want to clean up your toys now, and have time to read, or clean them up in 5 minutes without time to read?
When you simplify that to “do you want to be haltered now?”, when the horse says no, i don’t just leave. i accept it and give physical space, then reapproach. maybe changing how i ask a few times. usually the only time she says no is when the horses were just fed. eventually she’ll allow it and i almost always have more hay waiting for her where she’s tied. allowing her to offer movements during groundwork is great too! for rhe first time ever she offered to walk over poles the other day without me walking with her. it was easy for her to go around them, but she chose to go over and i went to give her scratches and snacks as a “good job!!”
giving horses a choice might be scary to a lot of people (including me) because it takes away our absolute power. but it 100% makes a safer, more confident partner in the end.
Yay! I love your videos!
You're my favorite horse trainer
8:57 with my mare when I go for a ride down the driveway the neighbours dogs come running and barking at us so now she anticipates it and before they even appear she wants to turn around and run but the other day they weren’t there so I got her to go a couple steps further than she wanted to then I got her to stand there for 5 seconds then I let her turn around and go back and now everyday that I take her down there I just get her to stand there for a few extra seconds ❤
Can’t wait to watch!❤
On the spurs topic. I had the same opinion that you had, but my gelding could be nappy if he chose to (and its not pain, vet cleared him, even said he’s just got an attitude)
So my trainer suggested trying spurs, before we got to this point we used increase of leg pressure and a whip, this helped but I didn’t like the “argument” we had to have first.
With the spurs, it actually corrected my leg aids, as I had to stop digging my heels and just use my calves and when he doesn’t respond, I give a light nudge with the spur.
I feel confident using this under her guidance as she also suggested beginner friendly spurs.
The reason the “argument” upset me is he started arguing sooner and for longer. So we’ll see with the spurs if he starts doing the same. He’s young so it’s important to establish that boundary of when asked for a faster gait, he knows what is expected of him.
On the strapping the horses in topic- my trainer used a bungee on him, so it clips in where a martingale goes, it just goes over the poll, again not strapping and forcing him to be in shape, he can lift his head and there will be no pressure, it’s just when he goes too high, where the bungee comes in.
And again, if used correctly, these are tools. If used wrong they become torture devices.
So I think as a horse mom, you always need to checkin with that moral compass.
I think these are great points I love vids like these it really helps when I'm training my mare's.
Having your videos has been unspeakably helpful to me on my horse journey! Didn’t realize how well my first ride went thanks to your advice. I’ve even decided to invest in your courses on respect and lunging when it comes time.
You have been incredibly helpful to thousands of nameless folks on the other side of the screen, making sure that the advice you’re giving is best practice and honest, and acknowledging that mistakes can and will be made. Being personal with your own riding journey and how you’ve made many of your decisions provides a lot of solace as well. You make your videos very digestible for the average anxious human/new horse person lol.
I used one of your videos for my new headphones!! TKS😊😊😊
I personally don’t agree with the martingales, I use one with my horse as a reminder, to say “hey, we are not a giraffe” and “we don’t put our head in the air”, he is 20 years young, and has had a lot of time off, so he is greenish.
I really appreciate you making this follow-up video! Something that you seem to keep coming back to is that the horse "doesn't want to do something." Unless it's strictly for safety purposes (like being able to load on a trailer), we need to recognize that we have a partnership with the horse. Just because the rider wants to do something, doesn't mean it's enjoyable or comfortable for the horse. We should want the horse to be happy and calm and put their well-being first. They're animals with feelings and desires, and generally they are doing humans a huge favor by allowing us to put them in very unnatural and vulnerable positions.
Many trainers will use harsh methods (such as adding more equipment) and teach their students that it's "the way it's done." Many harmful practices are allowed in competitions as well. But that doesn't mean they're right. If you feel bad hitting a horse with a crop or making them bleed with spurs or a special bridle, that's because it's wrong - no matter what your trainer might say. There is some re-learning that people need to do as a result of what they were taught.
I highly recommend following Milestone Equestrian on Facebook for some excellent commentary on these issues. And I also recommend always using POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. It's the best way to get a horse to be willing and excited to work and learn.
I think what you’re saying is “I don’t let my horse say “No”, but i do let it say “I need more information/clarification.”
Yes, you got it!
Here is how I would deal with a horse refusing to go in the trailer...
There are two reasons a horse would refuse:
1. They are scared/traumatized from a previous experience.
2. They lack the trust in you that you won't put them in harms way.
Their is no such thing as a horse "just being stubborn/ lazy" because they love to work/ have a job and do things for their owners (provided their owners are deserving of the horse). Think about it... They gallop around in the pasture and in the wild, travel up to 40 miles a day. They are not innately lazy! For certain things, they might just not have the muscle to accomplish the task you are asking.
Horses are incredibly curious so if they don't want to investigate the trailer, it's probably because they think something bad might happen.
If it's reason #1, I would work through the trauma at THEIR pace. I'd use r+ for this to build their confidence around the trailer. I would never used the traditional "Clinton Anderson" method of working the horse away from the trailer and then letting it rest next to it. This will only make the horse more nervous, and if you are "lucky", the horse will shut down and stop fighting it. This if FLOODING, not training.
If it's reason #2, I would go back to basic ground work. Again with r+ to build their trust in you. Eventually, they will see that if you are in the trailer, and they trust you, then it is okay for them to be in the trailer also.
Again, horses are not innately lazy/ stubborn for no reason - especially if it is something as low energy as walking in a trailer.
(edit) If the horse says no, and you just turn around and never address why... yeah, they probably won't get any better.
I personally prefer to let my horse say no. That shows her that I'm listening to her and I care how she feels. (I don't want to teach my horse to get shut down or learned helplessness). Like someone said in the video: usually once the horse understands that "no" is an option, they feel less pressure and are more likely to say yes. This is because they know that they can always walk away if it get's to be too much instead of being forced to stay there.
great video!
good video, well done
You are the best RUclipser ever I love u so so much u are the best and my favorite ever i love you 💕
So my horse had issue with cows but she would try to attack them and she was very protective of me
😂you are right ❤
When I talk about letting a horse make they own choice I have been seeing a lot of improvement in a lot of horses that do this it's a way I was taught in California when I made that comment I am not good with words and never have been my vocabulary is as bad as my hearing my sincere apologies that I didn't make it understandable and a lot of times my words to do some more like and then attacked in anything but I promise that was not my intentions
i don't mean this to be rude, but martingales, spurs, and whips are training tools. they aren't the final result, but they're very helpful in reaching goals. of course, they need to be used in experienced hands but these aids aren't evil. i personally don't use them myself but like in this video, you can have an opinion without judging others. (also, tie downs keep horses heads down, there are many types of martingales all used for different purposes). just research tools and use them the right way before immediately shutting them down
I believe she mentioned this, I think the main thing she's against is using it to "fix" something, or being used as a shortcut. Like using a whip to get a "lazy" horse moving, instead of actually working with them and getting them more responsive.
True. Sometimes tools are designed to be a shortcut for the rider and not helpful for the horse in the long run though, so I don't think every tool is ethical when used the way it's supposed to be (some bits are a great example of this). I don't know much about the martingale argument, but when it comes to draw reins for instance there's good argument for why not to use them when you research them. Ultimately it comes down to whose research and instruction you chose to believe compared with one's own experience and comfort.
@@joseykate8510 i must've missed that, thank you for the polite input, have a blessed day!
@@letheanlove yes, I completely agree
I've found @hackettequine2059 take on this quite useful. The core idea seems to be to break the task into small questions so that the horse is prepared and can answer 'yes'. She's got a nice video about loading: ruclips.net/video/IYIzYoEJUhg/видео.html. I also think it is important for us to remember that 'saying no' is our human way of understanding horse behaviour and action. I'd prefer to think of it as a conversation and the horse isn't saying 'no' but 'I'm really not keen on that' -our response can then be, ok, lets see why ur not keen on it.
I don't mean to be rude in my comment, it is just something to think about.
Have you ever been stubborn about something? Did you afterwards evaluate why you were being stubborn? I don't think people are stubborn without a reason and nor are horses.
Instead of deciding the horse doesn't have a reason look harder and question more.
I also think evaluating our reasons for our own behavior helps us understand others and our horses.
Horses are not as mentally complex as us but I think that is more reason to think that they have a valid reason for saying no.
Hi ur the best!!! Also first comment!!
Please look at the Linda tellington touch Linda is still alive and still training with her methods and she is the queen of training holistically she usually trains with special equipments if you want to know more about that I should just looking her up again like I said I'm not good with words
Do you have anything against crops? I I personally have nothing against using spurs and crops using a Martingale. I’m not in a position to try to train my horse to be able to be written without tack, but I think where you’re coming from can make sense, and I really have nothing against it everybody trans in different ways and I feel like as long as you use spurs safely it’s OK as long as it doesn’t end up in abuse it’s OK but also I’m not anybody to hate on you. I think it makes sense to ride your horses beautifully you train Tucker so well, so there really is nothing I can do to change your mind and there’s something I wanted you to change your mind I just wanna mention that I love how good you are at this and you are here saying it’s OK if you use burns it’s OK if you choose a martingale and it’s OK if you want to use a crop that’s all fine but for me I prefer to get to a position where I don’t have to use any contact where I can be in the safest situation whatsoever and make sure that my horse is as comfortable as possible. And I really love that about you. I’m just so grateful that you’re making this channel! Also, what do you think about a bit? Do you usually ride bittless
#nuezthehorse
When a horse is lazy and continuously says no to everything that is when you put them in the round pen and ask them to work
Why is there a gimp horse who has been blindfolded and hooded standing behind you? Seems very weird.
it’s called a fly mask. so the flys don’t irritate their eyes and ears..
ummmmm
It's called a fly mask. It keeps flies out of their eyes. And horses can still see out of them.
Are you a troll?
It’s called a fly mask, keeps the flys away from their face