Project Lantan: Poland Designs a Modular AK in 7x41mm
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2023
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In the early 1970s, Poland wanted to replace their 7.62x39mm Kalashnikov rifles. The Soviet Union was developing the 5.45mm AK-74, but the Poles wanted to make a more ambitious advance in small arms systems. They launched Project Lantan (Polish small arms programs were code named after minerals and periodic table elements). The plan was to create a modular system similar in concept to the Stoner 63 - a single universal receiver that could be fitted with different components to create variety of weapons. These could include a short carbine, infantry rifle, mag-fed light machine gun, squad automatic, or vehicular machine gun (fired by spade grips or remote solenoid).
The cartridge developed for the rifle was an indigenous 7x41mm round that was longer and more efficient than 7.62x39mm. Two prototype rifles were built, and courtesy of Works 11 in Katowice, Poland we have a chance to take a close look at number 1. Unfortunately its experimental foam/rubber stock has completely disintegrated in the past 50 years since it was built, but the rest of the rifle is intact. It features separate upper and lower receivers and a quick-change barrel and gas tube.
Once the Soviet Union found out about the project, they forced it to be cancelled. The Soviets wanted caliber commonality within the Warsaw Pact, and they also wanted to collect a license fee from Poland for the AK-74 and 5.45x39mm cartridge. In this they were only partially successful, as the Poles reverse engineered elements of the AK-74 to create their own unique Tantal rifle design instead of licensing the new Kalashnikov. But even so, the Lantan project was squashed before it could advance beyond two initial proof of concept rifles.
Thanks to Works 11 and all my other friends in Poland who helped arrange access to this fascinating rifle!
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
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I love these types of guns that have the "real life Fallout" aesthetic.
The stamp upper receiver is giving off the vibes of those Chinese smuggled AKMs.
Straith from Brazil favela.
Still looks better than anything Bethesda has designed to date
Not a Beth fan (at least after 4 and 76) but their Mr Gutsy design was brilliant
@@hobbstactv2571 I think that artist (the main designer of 3) died, tho
I always like how the specter of 7mm always pops up every so often with experimental cartridges that almost, almost gets adopted before getting squashed
You could say the same for 8mm ;)
@@julianb5844that at least was used in a couple important cartridges. And we might be getting 8mm Kurz back into production soo
I love how after the soviets squashed the project the poles were like "fine, well use your cartridge" and instead of buying a license for the KA-74 they just made their own.
Russia was asking for a lot of Commie moolah for licencing back then.
If that was the only one. Sadly moust of our military projects where murdered outright.
Like TS-16 Grot (polish mig-19 based Supersonic trainer in vain of Jaguar, Talon or T-2).
Only projects that where not smashed where ones that you where able to develop, tool up and start production in secret.
@@radosaworman7628 TS-16 would never fly, Poland was too poor to develop it, no matter how good Sołtyk was. Politics and USSR had nothing to do with it's death, It was waaay above our capabilities and realistically thinking it actually was good idea to kill this project.
@@IShyper going by that standard there was no point in developing anything. Poland started development of Grom Manpad when we where in deepest of economic despairs and now they produce moust capable shoulder mounted manpad in the west. For context Koreans need to import from Russia (same as used on verba manpad) photo-diod to come close to standard of the Piorun manpad
Knowing that they already have developed and produced both engine and hydraulic system for the aircraft they where not that far from making a jump producing subsonic jet trainer to supersonic one.
Where’s the will there’s the way.
@@radosaworman7628 "going by that standard there was no point in developing anything" - you are totally wrong and put words into my mouth that I did not say. There is point in developing new stuff, but you must be realistic while doing so. What you suggest is very similar to typical polish "zastaw się a postaw się", where you rather walk hungry but show off. But already hungry nation cannot justify throwing so much money into such projects. You think with emotions when you should be thinking with rationality.
SO-2 was not produced, it was still in development and it was not going well, don't know where you got that information from.
And Grom MANPADS was not developed in Poland, it is improved stolen soviet Igla :P
Initially, Lantan project was supposed to use caseless ammunition. The 7x41 ammo which was later included in the Lantan project was developed for the program code-named Marszyt. The goal of the program was, as you might expect, to develop a new generation intermediate cartridge to replace 7,62 × 39 mm wz. 43
So this is Polish g11? Hey, maybe it will be festured in numerous video games ;)
The basis of the pulse rifle from aliens. Look at the visual profile of the handguard, dust cover, and it was supposed to use case less ammunition?
@@TeleriumD12 Yep, and all this a couple of years before the movie even came out.
I forgot about the stock too. I'm aware they used a Thompson and underslung shotgun for the working props, but the whole rear visual profile from the action backward is clearly AK/Lantan inspired
@@TeleriumD12 I have my doubts. Military projects behind the Iron Curtain were usually kept secret. I am not sure when information about this modernization program was released to the public.
Looks like a futuristic AK from a 90s to early 2000s video game.
Or a normal AK in a PSP game so it’s all boxy
It looks like a gun you would find on Fallout. LOL
The 7x41 cartridge was code-named Marszyt. Polish sources indicate its muzzle velocity was 770 mps (2526 fps).
This piece has a tamper-evident feature you didn't mention. Simply weigh the weapon on a precise scale, record the mass, and compare to a log of previous mass when put into storage. Every time anyone handles the weapon, it will weigh slightly less from additional foam particles falling off. In this way you'll always be assured no one has tampered with your weapon.
By the look of it, the remainder of those foam scraps are going to keep disintegrating whether anyone tampers with it or not.
@@bartolomeothesatyr So you'll just have to sentence someone randomly. Nothing out of the ordinary for the ComBloc.
Unless they stick some chewing gum on it.
The foam stock seems quite cool to me, at this moment of prototyping at least. Very easy to make and shape however you like it. It's not supposed to last. Once you get all the details finalized, you'll get it molded properly in plastic, or whatever you like.
Making "high build quality" prototypes is simply a waste of time and money. I'm quite convinced plenty of other firearms went through similar stages of very rough development, but we rarely ever see them.
I thought this was a joke about leaving metal unsupervised around Poles, ah well...
OK, now THIS is the sort of weird content we come here for. This looks like a damn post-apocalyptic movie/video game gun.
Some manner of Polish cyborg needs to be seen wielding this.
For real, looks like a gun that would be in Rust. Just missing the shovel-handle buttstock!
Not a cyborg, but a bear.
@@fonesrphunny7242 With his artillery shells tucked under the other arm
@@fonesrphunny7242 Cyborg Bear.
...OK, now I'm gonna have to do what Hollywood calls a "treatment".
Cyborg bear... Like Wojtek meets Robo-Cop? We'll call him Cybertek!
Logically since only two were made, and the project ended, it ALMOST was the final iteration of that project.
Final but not ultimate 😀
Beyond its ballistics, the 7x41 cartridge is just aesthetically beautiful.
Ian has the coolest gig a firearms enthusiast could imagine.
The only problem is the way you make your money can take it away at any moment because they don’t like your content.
I wonder if the material originally used for the stock was selected for how easy it would be to sculpt a one off stock so the design could be more easily iterated prior to adopting a final design.
or they just wanted to one down the worst firearm stock they could find.
It almost looks like it was made in spur of the moment to make it "good enough" to meet a trials deadline, the plan being to make a proper stock after you made the admins and military commanders consider what you have to offer them.
Maybe it was foam dipped in latex and the latex just rotted away.
More than likely they were experimenting with comfort. The metal is where most of the pressure would be while the foam exists for comfort in theory. It certainly would be cheaper in theory but the the key issue is foam is not as long lasting and its easily damaged not it could cause more recoil.
Likely cost was the driver.
Prototyping a foam stock would be cheaper than prototyping an actual injected polymer, because you could use the lost wax process to make the mold cheaply and quickly, when you're only doing a handful.
Once you've set the design pretty much in stone amd know how the stock will end up being shaped and the exact geometry of the attachment, *then* you go and drop the $150,000 (well, maybe $30,000 back then) to make proper molds for proper polymers.
Ian, please take a look at the IMBEL IA2 rifle! It's a brazilian modernization of the FAL platform that's being adopted within Brazil's armed forces (and it's already kinda forgotten too)
Ian did a video on the Norwegian and Swedish modernization programs for the G3, so he should definitely look into Brazil's modernized FALs.
It would be nice if he also looked at the IMBEL MD series, that the IA2 is replacing.
On that note I'd love a video about the SC-2010, which is a Peruvian modernization attempt at the FAL.
I just googled it and it looks badass.
Okay, now I really want to know how its machinegun variants would look like.
I love the welded extension on the mag. For being an experimental one off, that’s dope
If you look closely, at 4:00 minute mark, you will see (by tracing the weld lines) that not only is there an extension welded on, but whole front of the magazine was cut off and new wider piece from another mag was welded on.
This has nothing to do with drugs.
The 7x41 cartridge is fascinating, wonder how it compares to the 6.8×51/.277 Fury, .280 British, 6.8mm Remington SPC, etc.
Could be worth a dedicated video.
It has almost same characteristics as 6.8 SPC
I thought of the 7x57mm Mauser cartridge when I watched this video . I wonder if the Polish designers were thinking of it too .
It would seem to be very similar to the .280 British (7x43), at least in specification, so a video comparing them (and other similar cartridges) would certainly be interesting.
Thanks for the video. I live in Poland, but I never heard of Lantan project. I have only heard, that there were some works aborted by USSR. Funny, that despite I'm Polish, I'm learning Polish history from US guy. Thanks again!
Soviet history is rightfully consigned to the dustbin. You are better off moving on from it. The soviet union was an abomination fuelled by despair and misery. The Polish have much to be proud of, resisting the nazis and then the communists. Focus on that part of your heritage.
I want to know more about this 7x41mm cartridge...
I have the feeling it's basically 6.8 SPC
I love these prototypes with oddball cartridges.
I have a feeling that this stock was made by encasing that metal skeleton with expanding foam and then sculpting it to a final shape.
Yeah, the residual foam has that expanding polyurethane insulation foam look. This would perfectly fit that tire rubber front grip.
Edit: Just wanted to add that I don't mean that it's bad in any way - using any and all available materials for prototyping fits perfectly the Polish engineering ethos.
Or, even making a lost wax cavity to hand the stock skeleton into and spray the foam around it.
I did a similar thing with a hollow, aftermarket, FAL stock, with a can of crack sealant spray foam and some bird shot mixed in at intervals, to balance the rifle better. The stock ended up slightly stiffer overall, too...
The reason is quite different. It was the period of communist Poland. There were widespread shortages, from toilet paper to sugar, shoes and cigarettes. I used to wear my older brother's shoes because you couldn't buy them in the store.
I assume that what was at hand was used in the prototype. Some equivalent of what was supposed to be in the target version.
How cool and stressful at the same time, to disassemble this gun...
Thanks for showing us cool firearms like this.
Stock now looks like something out of WH40k Traitor Guard!
I never thought I'd ask this, but what did that stock smell like? I have this God-awful notion of being issued a piece of a rubberized foam stock, running 10 Km in the rain, going for cheek weld, just as I get a sight picture...The smell of every other conscript seeped into the foam comes wafting up.
In that case, all you'd smell is depression and fear. And possibly some moonshine 'vodka' that got made in the barracks in Teodor's boot, but everyone went blind from drinking.
Probably like a moldy locker room.
When I was a lad, in the mid 70s, I bought a copy of "Armies & Weapons" magazine that had an article on the Polish Army. The Poles said they were not happy with the ballistics of the 7.62x39, but gave no more details than that. Thanks for solving the mystery of what the Poles were up to. The 7x41 cartridge would be pretty effective even today.
It's literally less powerful than standard 7.62x39, this new round makes no sense.
@@hornmonk3zit You are wrong. It is exactly the opposite. That's why this cartridge was created to have better parameters from 7.62x39.
7.62x39 => 715 m/s, 1991J
7x41 => 770 m/s, 2000J
Any questions?
@@PanProper Ian literally says it's 118gr. going 2350fps, standard 7.62x39 is 122-125gr. at 2400fps. The 7mm round is objectively inferior, and even if the numbers were what you just made up it's literally a 0.5% improvement in exchange for a larger, heavier cartridge that would require hundreds of millions of dollars to adopt and have zero compatibility with any of Poland's allies or even their enemies.
@@hornmonk3zit Exactly, the improvement in parameters was so small that it did not economically agree on the implementation into production. Which does not change the fact that the Polish cartridge had better parameters than the Soviet one... Anyway, these were the assumptions...
@@hornmonk3zit Ian literally said it goes 2530 fps and then made a MISTAKE the second time he mentioned velocity and changed the number around to 2350 fps. Watch carefully.
From what I know there is second prototype with stock that survived, but it's not in Poland anymore.
Dzięki ! Zawsze znajdziesz coś ciekawego!👽🖖
Wtf aliens in the comments?!
@@parzavaal5335 LEGAL aliens, mind you
I love these engineering prototypes! Well done Ian for sniffing out another piece that may have never seen the light of day to the general public.
Well shoot, I wasn't expecting that! What a great choice of topic, Lantan is wonderfully weird.
Pozdrowienia z Polski!/Greetings from Poland!
I am incredibly impressed! My socks have not just been blown off, they have achieved escape velocity. I have never heard a whisper of this project or that cartridge. Gun Jesus, you bless me with your mighty knowledge. Thank you from a long time fan.
Thank you for the cartridge comparisons, especially just seeing how they differ in dimensions visually is soo helpful!
1:38 Fun fact: This urethane-over-steel concept was used on mid-80's Fords, I had an '84 Tbird with steel wheels cast inside a polyurethane shell and coated to resemble alloy wheels. They were only a little squishy...
Wow, very interesting piece of weapon design history! Idea of a cheap modular system that can be manufactured in large quantities, this had some nice potential. Amazing content, thank you Ian for sharing this with us!
Never heard about that gun before. If I haven't clicked that video I would thought that this is some early iteration of Kbk Beryl prototype. Thanks Mr. Ian for upload!
truly a rarity, greetings from Poland
That was interesting, and kool. Looked like two stamped ak receivers to make the upper and lower.
As I recall there was a ton of interesting concept's of similar kind made as graduate works in Military Technical Academy (WAT) in Poland a specially a lot of different bullpup concepts.
Don't know how he gets access to all these super-rare things, but I'm glad he does.
Dziękuję Ian! Love seeing polish stuff on your channel C:
Thank you for coming Ian, you are my favorite Sunday dinner companion.
Sounds like a spiritual predecessor to the modular MSBS Grot.
If that gun could speak, it would be shrieking for death.
Either that, or it would be sobbing with deep depression.
Kiiilll.. meeeee...
Kurwa.... 😥
@@kmech3rd Kurwa mach indeed.
This is a truly forgotten weapon, I admire your work and envy your opportunities.
Yes! I’ve not heard of this. So nice to be surprised!
At first, I was about to check if Ian had already done a Tantal review.
Then, I double-checked the title.
Patients pays! I've waited since Tantal video for this one, and it's finally here!
This is truly forgotten weapon.
The more of these guns I watch you take apart the more I realize, Guns are just really badass deadly leggos for men.
im so glad ian is enjoying his time in poland :) it would be so cool to bump into him in the streets haha. even just to say hi! yes im polish :)
I love seeing rare stuff like this. Didn't even know this existed. Thankyou. 😊
Nice suprise that you vistited us, 🎉 best regards ftom the north of PL - Gdansk. I'm kida fan of this channel.
Soon Ian would present the -4 project build. What a great content, oh boy.
Thank you, Ian!
it's like Poland didn't have enough money for a shitty wire frame stock. really lacking that Polish on the project
Nice yoke
There was a stock but it disintegrated since 1980s.
The constructors had such a fantasy and it was their business, not the possibilities...
Man the best FW videos are the ones where you're going "what in the fuck is that?" On the first frame
I Would Absolutely Love to have Seen what that Lantan and the 7x41 mm cartridge would of become !!!
Gun Jesus gets mad access to prototype weapons. Pure gold.
We would never see these, if not for him.
Amazing thing to see. Thanks for sharing.
Woof, That's a rifle only a motherland could love
They basically came up with 6.8 SPC a few decades early.
This looks remarkably like a very early Beretta AR-70, AR70-90, or SIG551/2/3. All the moving parts are still there and like the AR70/90 and SIG 55X the quick change barrel and upper receiver are mostly sheetmetal with a forged front trunnion.
Love this video. Most interesting one in a while.
love the videos keep up the great work!
Would love to get my VZ58 chambered in this round with a HB and Compensator Really love the blueing on this one!
Missed opportunity to call it the Polish Kaiser with its Withered buttstock
Shame they don't still make those. Would be a lot of fun at the range.
"Draw me an AK"
GPT-0: okay
@BrandonHerrera should definitely watch this one. AK with separate upper and lower? I'd call that a progress.
The first 2 AK prototypes had a separate lower and upper. The second prototype even had mostly closed upper receiver with a non-reciprocating charging handle and used an SKS style short-stroke piston.
@@ShortT-RexLikeArms Didn't know that. That seems really nice.
He the only dude that can pick up an alien weapon and know how to reload it like Master Chief.
there was also Molibden rifle prototype from WAT - military technical academy in Warsaw in early '90
I like that "Mad Max style" front grip 😅
Greeting from Poland BTW!
It is interesting to consider that the 6.5 Swedish Mauser round, designed in the 19th century, is very close to the "ideal" rounds that have been developed since.
Gun Jesus finally took the walk to Poland.
holy crap despite being somehow gun interested Pole i had no idea about that gun. Great video!
I feel like the overly robust milled upper and lower receiver wouldn't have been too out of the line for a sharpshooter variant.
Just having the barrel attach to the upper is going to increase repeatable accuracy for any scope mount (or an iron sight moved to the rear of the receiver, which would simultaneous make field accuracy easier by increasing sight radius).
I would absolutely love to see a video on some forgotten optics and sights, specifically the *old school* iMatronic Lasersight LS45 that we see on Kurt Russell's Ruger GP100 in the movie Tango and Cash.
Thank you Ian very interesting
honestly this would have been a cool project to see completed
It's like an AK that drank bud light
@@seymoarsalvage hey, that joke probably got him some likes on less apolitical gun channels, he probably thought that it'll work here too.
The Poles in the early '70s envisioned a cartridge remarkably similar to the current 6.8 mm round the army has approved for the new XM7 series of rifles and SAWs. Strangely enough the M-1 Garand was at first chambered for the .276 Pedersen cartridge but changed at the last minute to .30 caliber.
I wonder if this would have been backwards compatible with the 7.62x39 cartridge with some sort of spacer in the magazine to keep the rounds in the right place.
That, for a Meccano modular style design is incredibly attractive in a sort of primitive way. I love things that are not particularly pretty but effective and reliable.
I would add that i would *not* like to field strip that under duress..
I wish they continued to develop this. It would be badass
This feels like the most Forgotten Weapon
Kalashnikov made a gun called the ak 521 that has a detachable upper and lower so with one lower in Russia is the fire arm you can have 3 uppers in different calibers while still technically owning 1 rifle
The cartridge is suspiciously close to the WW2 German experimental 7mm
Is that the 7x64 Brenneke or something else? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7%C3%9764mm
7x64 is a full lenght hunting cartridge ,will fit in a K98 action lenght .
@John Dallman I meant the 7x46 which was an intermediate cartridge, the 7x64 is an excellent cartridge but it was a full power rifle cartridge.
Ok, that thing is seriously cool. With some refinement I could easily see this thing becoming better than the stoner 63. It's a shame they didn't keep the project going.
The worst thing about it is that they could have accually just rechamber it to 5.45. Since it's so modular they only would have to change the bolt, barrel and lower(+mags but that's a given)
@@fotoradar6063 yup, or when Poland joined Nato they could have switched it to 5.56.
*Poland Designs the M41 ‘Xeno’ Pulse Rifle
Great video as always
The handgaurd looks like it was made from a floormat
The front handguard is snap rivets securing rubber from running boards off a junkyard truck. 😂
This is exactly what you'd get if you tried to recreate an AK from a mid-late 90's shooter. Its almost like a regular AK, but its very boxy and the proportions are off.
Nice design ideas.
This is one Mad Max looking AK.
That disintegrating foam stock must really have stunk
I must be getting old…EVERY AK style of AK, just looks like an AK to me!
Ian, When you said it was more powerful, did you mean at distance? A 123 grain ( nominal ) projectile at 2350 fps will have slightly more muzzle energy than one of 116 grains at the same velocity.obviously the 7mm has higher b.c./s.d. unlike the 5.56 Nato Which velocity is measured from a 20 inch barrel , the ak rounds are tested In the standard 16 inch ak barrels. So when a box of " ak ammo" says 2350fps or 2900fps, that's from the 16 inch(800ish mm) barrels.
(no ,I'm not explaining this all for Ian, he knows this, but many viewers won't . )
The muzzle velocity of this projectile was 2530 fps NOT 2350 fps.
Looks like something Elbonia would go for.
This is now my new favorite "AK" variant
there's a quite interesting project - polish ak jantar
Looks like a space marine bolt gun prototype
Super interesting project. Looks alien and familiar at the same time. Pozdrowienia z Katowic!