The Uncomfortable Truth Of Wayland Adoption
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Whilst I am hopeful for the adoption Wayland there is one issue that I have to acknowledge, there are some desktops that simply are never going to be ported, and are going to be left behind on X11.
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Brodie went from calling us “Single monitor cavemen” to “single monitor enjoyers”. I appreciate the rank up Brodie
You can use wlr-randr on wlroots
Am I really a single monitor cave man if my single monitor is the area equivalent of four monitors tho?
sooo i can't use 2 monitors with linux? or is it just wayland doesn't have dual monitor support?
@@zeburgerkang Wayland and X11 both allow dual monitors, it’s just that I never had the chance to try it but it should work just fine now
heart stopper i tell you what, cant wait for VanillaOS 2 Orchid though.@@zerron2156
We gotta stop pretending x11 is going away anytime soon. Not saying it's preferred, its definitely not and its on life support, but its not going away. It 100% will still be in the repos for debian 13, and it probably will be in the repos for debian 14. In that period of time, desktops that people actually use (mate, cinnamon, xfce, lxqt) will likely be fully ported to wayland.
It will be going away for the average user though, sure you could still go and use it just like you could go and run TWM but most people are on distros like Ubuntu and Fedora and when they stop offering X11 then to them it will no longer exist.
Who gives a rodents behind about niche, obscure, unmaintained desktop nonsense with 5 users? Desktop space on Linux is mostly overpopulated with choice and would probably benefit from thinning the herd as that could allow reshuffling of development effort on viable things. Either their maintainers wake up, step up or accept being left behind by time… at one point you have to move on and bite the bullet. Windows users also need to eat whatever Microsoft dreams up as the next best thing every 5 or so years, they whine and nag but swallow as they have little choice but allows forward movement (good or bad is for you to decide), Linux users will face the same as things age and die at one point…
Choice is good, too much choice boggs things down…stubbornly hanging onto vestiges of obscurities just because you can adds little value.
With wlroots maturing and there being some WMs that were created natively for Wayland, things aren't looking too bad. Yes, many old projects will become abandonware and get lost in the sands of time, but there'll also be a lot of stuff that's newly created, either from scratch or by utilizing existing projects as a starting point. Over time, that in itself creates a broader foundation to kickstart more projects from. At the beginning, it's a slow process, but it'll accelerate eventually.
Is wlroots every gonna properly support nvidia though?
@@maxxiong Yes. Things are slowly getting better.
It's really easy to make a layout plugin for hyprland (kinda like an xorg wm) :D
There are already a few of those, maybe with the recent addition of a first party plugin manager there will be even more :)
But yeah, it's inevitable as we move to a, let's be real, better solution, that we discard some parts of the past.
All hail Hyprland
an zext-layout-shell-v1? :d
I think there should just be more x11 developers wayland is a lost cause at this point
I've used XFCE for many many years after being horribly burned by the gnome to Unity transition in Ubuntu. With how fast our computers are now, there is literally no excuse for a slow UI. When I click a menu, the computer should do it faster than my brain can perceive. If I need to wait for a menu to open, it's waaaaaay too slow.
Yes the video acknowledged Enlightenment! They have been porting experimental Wayland support for a while but it is still not first class. I wish they would because it's an awesome project and I would totally go back to it full time
An irony watching this is, before Christmas I had thought about maybe doing a fork of Hyprland in the start of 2024 just because there was a few large scale things I wanted to do... but as you said; the dev there works so fast that before 2024 hit... he had changed enough code and added an official plugin system for it that I feel my need to fork is no more. 2024 instead I now play to write one or two plugins instead. :)
This is why I think the rush to wayland will HURT the Linux world in the short and medium term due to the disparity and incoming waves of incompatibility issues.
To be ported many projects will need to START FROM SCRATCH but the coding competences might be simply unavailable..
(project moved slowly within the community in a era were real life was less broken and peoples learned clean+efficient coding)
Noobs, normies or just careless users don't realize how much advanced contribution and legacy knowledge is in danger by the desire to KILL X11 user base forcing them to jump up.
The superior features of Linux nowadays are its huge softwares list featuring decades of programers experiences, the stellar retro compatibility achievement with deprecated but still working hardware and the FOSS model to keep that direction forward..
Wayland is now 15 years old.
Wayland will be as old as x11 was when Wayland was proposed before it is actually ready to use at this rate. There is no excuse for a project like this to take nearly two decades to actually be usable.
then we need something like yayland (zayland?) to replace such outdated technology, and let the cycle repeat
I'm currently using Wayland on Manjaro Gnome across several machines with one as old as an AMD Athlon II X4, and one new as an Intel Core i9 12900H/AMD RX 6650 XT 8GB GPU with very few issues, even gaming, office work, video editing w/Kdenlive, etc.. So I personally think it's ready now for most use cases.
How old is the kernel? The age of the project is never the problem. Over years, you can refactor even the most crooked architecture. The problem is that community refuses to adapt to breaking changes.
Wayland > X11, there is no excuse for devs that ignore a project for 2 decades.
"There is no excuse" here's one: it barely had people working on it for the fist, like 8 years ? To be honest, I don't know exactly how it was, but that can be an excuse. Even a decent one. People back then didn't yet realize the need for building something new.
Well it's 15 years old in the paper, but not really that old in reality. Like the first 10 years saw no movement. Most of the work has been done in couple past years. So it actually is rather fresh take. Plasma 6 coming soon will be one of the primary demo's of what wayland actually is. Not completed by any standard, but good take on it. I think that is a good spot to actually start to judge it.
Minecraft as the window manager.
You might regret what you ask for...
yes
As all X Window Managers use the same X11 compositor interface, isn't it possible to create a X11-wayland compositor for all those projects to use?
Something that mimics the X11 compositor interface and translates it to wlroot or some other wayland composition library.
Are both APIS THAT different so this will not work?
IIRC i think it's possible to run XWayland in "root" mode, making in mimic X11 much closer.
Barebones VMs are one thing but desktop environments like XFCE, Cinnamon, LXQt etc are also taking quite a while to get proper wayland support since they don't have the large teams and resources of the "big 2" KDE and Gnome.
I'm just waiting for the day Fluxbox gets it's wayland support and then I'll switch. Any day now I'm sure....
genuinely mad that i have to learn manual tiling in order to do tabbed window management again. i don't like i3 and shouldn't be forced into that, something else should do tabs too
Im sure X11 (or maybe X12) is still a thing in 50 years...
Almost certainly.
Without doubt yes. There are very obscure servers in some dusty corners that are running whatever windows 95 hosting some über legacy systems.
@@ShadowManceri Windows 95? Those are the MODERN ones.
There's a lot of stuff out there still depending on MS-DOS machines. Or pre-Linux Unixes. It was news a couple years ago that the US military uses 8" floppies in the nuclear missile system, though sadly I don't know what system they're connected to.
@@ShadowManceri Nintendo Server? 🙂
@CptJistuce they weren't even the "modern" floppies. They were 5 1/4" iirc.
My primary reason why I havent gotten around to learning Wayland yet is because the second I think of learning it, I procrastinate.
I used fluxbox for years but now I'm forced to use something else (TM) that I don't know & is worse, & fluxbox doesn't have any sign of even adopting Wayland nor is there any project aiming to build a similar thing that works on Wayland.
(openbox, which fluxbox is derived from, has plans to support Wayland, at some point in time in the future, except I specifically ditched openbox because its config files are all xml & I hate xml, & it's even worse if you need a desktop environment that works on a potatoe with a 400x320 a mini LCD in which you absolutely can't have OVERLY VERBOSE CONFIG FILES that xml always turns out to be).
Bugger.
I will not surprised if Wayland never replace totally X11. We will have two systems in the Linux world, until a better display server will be pushed under the lights.
Wayland seems like devolping hell.
I wish there was a big enough distro that shipped enlightenment as the default DE. I plopped E22 on ubuntu a few years back and it was so fun to use, but the lack of proper integrations with the system were quite annoying.
I am in linux rabbit hole and I don't understand nothing what is talked about
Tbh, with all of that wayland push by red hat and others, i lost my hopes on linux desktop in general
linux distros will pretty much pidgeonhole themselves into be a server os again
NEVA! XORG for life!
I legitimately hope this is sarcasm, because that "life" isn't going to be more than 10 years more at best.
Perhaps it may be good to axe some lesser WMs. I strongly feel that the benefit of anyone being able to customize their Linux desktop however they want is also a huge barrier to mass adoption. Everyone wants to go work on their own thing rather than improve existing systems. This results in really terrible support for basic things, such as a process monitor, or something that tells you what hardware is in your systems. One would think these to be super basic features that should be in any OS the last 20 years, but strangely absent in Linux, or extremely basic, or a chore to setup. As long as Linux contributors keep forking everything 9000 times a day, there will be no cohesive system, and marketshare will continue to be crap. Every time I dabble in Linux desktop, I am severely underwhelmed, and never stick with it. It's like it is supposedly amazing for niche uses, or those who enjoy spending countless hours fumbling around to get basic tasks done, and becoming a legendary guru of typing in endless commands, and editing config files, but for everyone else, it is underwhelming.
Wayland still gives me countless visible and annoying problems to this day. I don't see me switching over until X11 is completely dropped from the Arch repos.
Absolutely everything runs better and more stable for me in X11
Seems like Wayland still depends strongly on hardware. AMD doesn't have issue with Wayland. Older Nvidia cards are also running smoothly Wayland.
thanks for saying it. Same here.
tbh i have problems with both but it's different problems, i'm on a 4090 tho so the space just hates me
Comments like this really are the Linux equivalent of
"Linux is bad because this Windows app doesn't run on it"
@@RadikAlice Except this is a situation of "Linux is bad because this Linux app doesn't run on it" and it's completely valid.
There is the possibility of a wayland compositor that depends on an X11 window manager connecting to it... and even implementing xwayland internally.
Yeah something similar already exist. Gamecope is a Wayland compositor and it can run inside an x11 windows. It use a vulkan extension to flip the Wayland buffer directly into the GPU memory while x11 is still running alongside. The joke is that Gamescope work better on X11 most of the time because many Wayland desktop are still missing the required Vulkan extension.
@@leucome There is almost nothing in common between full screen x11 apps that gamescope would be optimized for and x11 window managers, the rpc/api calls are completely different.
@@cheako91155 I think you missed the point. Gamescope is a Wayland compositor that run independently from X11 but still can be displayed inside an X11 windows while running Xwayland internally. This is pretty much related to the original post. Your gibberish about the API being different is irrelevant.
@@leucome No, you missed the point... I'm the OP, I known what I was talking about and full screen apps wasn't it.
maybe im missing something but why is cage + rootful better than just using xorg
Probably because Fedora and RHEL are going to be removing Xorg completely, making it not even an option anymore.
This is a move that I think is just plain stupid and moronic, but hey, if they want to shoot themselves in the foot they can.
Working on a thing to spawn from efi/bios secure boot directly into wayland.
thus having wayland as the initial 'console'.
No systemd (you can use it if you want..).
A default touch screen support with 1 to 3 finger and press/hold aware logic.
Currently 'works' on my OnePlus One phone and PC systems with AMD APU/GPU
(does not boot on NVIDIA/nouveau mostly due to my lacking knowledge of the hardware/driver).
Maybe ill share it when I feel its 'time'.
Or maybe ill just sell it to MS/APPLE so they can kill it
How long until the AUR is flooded with launch scripts for running every window manager under the sun in Cage+XWayland Rootful?
Linux users are arguing over window managers, while Windows and MacOS users over applications; and they have only one option worse than both Gnome and KDE.
nah, windows users are too busing asking reddit why they can't set up the laptop they got for christmas without connecting to a microsoft account.
Mac users are too busy telling others how much better apple products are.
@@Gab-e4w
While also defending blatantly overpriced tech because rich snobs just put the forbidden fruit on it. "No, it's not nerve agent, it's i-nerve agent. It takes 3 less milliseconds to kill and it'll change humanity!"
Meanwhile chrome OS users are casually running what is essentially android PC and BSD users are hoping that the year of their desktop will come.
Idk about ReactOS and everything else
I remember long ago when I was still using windows and I used alternative window managers such as bbLean (these days xoblite is used). But installing that required me to replace a system32 file with a program that turned out to be adware and spyware lol
You used to be able to use different window managers in windows. It took a lot of patches and if you messed up installing you bricked your windows install. But it could be done. I think that's how Stardock got started.
@@Gab-e4w Or figuring out how their computer got a piece of ransomware that *they* clicked on.
It's unfortunate, but it both shows that users that care enough have moved on from them, anyway, making them clearly obscure, and/or that modern desktop environments can reproduce the experiences they once provided, anyway, thus nobody sees fit to continue them onwards into Wayland. If people wanted them to stay around, surely they'd help port them to Wayland nowadays, even if there must be a fork to do said porting.
In a way, it's like the fate of stuff like KDE 1 and 2, GNOME 1, and so on - people moved on, or can reproduce their experiences with other desktop environments, and so they will get left in the dust.
yep, even GNUStep supports wayland and GNUStep is as oscure but still (barelly) usable as is gets talking on WMs
Why? There isn't any reason to be obsessed with the latest and greatest. Reports of X's death are exaggerated.
@@mikechappell4156 Shiny new stuff syndrome is par for the course with viewers of this channel.
Wayland can GTF, it is a backward step, no network transparency., fuck it. Unix is all about bing on a network, it's what it has always been good @. Windows always sucked @ it.....I think there might an infection.
look up waypipe
1:03 this graphics is outdated. There is FVWM3 now.
Self description from Vaxry
> Most FOSS projects get started because the author is bored, passionate about coding, sees the lack of a tool they'd like, a masochist, an idiot, or all of the above like I was with hyprland.
One of the biggest things which will slow down Wayland adoption is the fact Wayland doesn't do aliasing and scaling on its own, meaning we're gonna run another course of reinventing the square wheel (like the Linux community LOVES to do) until some "standard" pushed by one of the major enterprise distros is used and everyone bitches and moans about it, reinvents more square wheels but the majority settles on the "standard" anyways because they lack the funds to support an alternative to the same level. This happened with Systemd.
I have been hearing about Wayland for over a decade, it's never going to come really.
I'm not very confident, i still haven't seen Wayland work on anything i own, ever.
I'm still grateful to Wayland for pushing me off Debian/Gnome3 and over to Arch XFCE.. Around a decade ago. Nothing worked.. couldn't install or run anything. Come to love Arch. X11 isn't going anywhere until Wayland gets it's act seriously together. Right now it's not fit for purpose. I want to USE my computer .. not piss about with broken Wayland crap.
I had to switch to x11 because Nobara 39 on Nvidia broke and as much as I love wayland, I forgot how bug-free x11 I'd 😭
Bro said bug free
well other than the big known DE/WMs out there, I think the lesser used and even more esoteric DEs like TDE will probably fall by the wayside... MATE is still used , but I think they may only have hinted in only starting to support Wayland , I am not sure. Fluxbox I don't know, OpenBox will have to, otherwise LXQT will also be broken. I can't speak for WindowMaker, and now you have CDE just released opensource, and NSCDE a derivative of that, but unless they are ported along with motif / lesstif, those will also probably not work under wayland.
Make more videos about Xwayland Rootful.
Used Material Awesome for years, switched to Hyprland couple months ago (3 monitors). Loving it; don't miss Awesome or any other xorg WM at all. I see no reason at all not to use Wayland on all my systems going forward. Once you get over the Hyprland learning curve, it's smooth sailing.
Maybe, only maybe, if someone makes a wlroots compositor in coordination with those small desktops (feedback) and we unify them against fragmentation? 🤔
At least for the ones that bring a new experience?
Wayfire?
I use Wayland because X11 is crap on high refresh monitors. I have a 240hz monitor and let me tell you its smooth as butter with Wayland like on Windows but X11 session its terrible and no I'm not going to downgrade my monitor for a display server that needs to be discarded and is an absolute mess.
b-s-p-w-m? I think he means bespawn.
But in fact most of those one-man-band projects are going the way of the dodo
I've never heard anyone call it bespawn
@@BrodieRobertson I never heard anyone not
So this is the end of the journey for WindowMaker and Enlightenment?
Been using those two since the end of the 1990s..
Brodie, minor question and I'm about 8 months late, what is that font on the terminal at 1:26, just curious, looks nice and clean.
It's gonna be a long crossover. Bifurcated distro spins. The dev frameworks and libraries should be opaque, sans video editing, graphics and hdr. It looks rough, but it will smooth out....in 5 years. Look at the LTS on distros.... 2027, etc. Ya, I see a split for awhile. I'm worried about the gui frameworks actually. Custom components. It's not supposed to be a problem....
13:02 I HATE THE ANTI CHRIST!
Personally I don't care because I don't like WM's anyway. Been using Wayland on KDE Neon and now on openSuse Tumbleweed. Runs smooth. No issues so far.
After discovering how powerful Awesome is, it becomes difficult to use these other window managers. There should be only one framework Wayland display server, which would be Awesome, and from there all the others could be created.
Is it me, or are the arguments against Wayland basically the exact reverse of those used against systemd?
Init freedom VS We need one stable window manager instead of multiple projects.
systemd has too much bloat VS Wayland doesn’t have enough features.
systemd is taking over at the expense of other Inits VS X11 is here to stay and will never go away.
I'm a GUI user, couldn't care less about the hyprland hype. Wayland in comparison makes my desktop super fast and snappy. Bring it on !
If the choice is whether to convert to Wayland now or in 5 years, it seems like Wayland's documentation, and the appearance of other toolkits to do so will greatly assist in that in 5 years. - Because Wayland only started to exist for so many people in 2024.
I don't get why so many people rave about tiling WMs, they look horrible in my opinion. I like stacking my windows, not tiling them.
I think the really uncomfortable truth is that just making Wayland workable and pushing it on people might not be enough to get everyone to adopt it...
Also that creating "one more standard to replace them all" has never actually worked out all that well.
Wayland will take over about a week after Linux takes over the desktop market.
I had nothing but problems with wayland soo glad ubuntu gave option to not use it and yep multi-display of 16x screens here
It's tough. One hand you can say that the old must eventually be dismantled for the future. On other hand, some people just need what the old way had because something may not work 100% to their needs and they cannot accept anything less than a 100% working solution, be it missing protocols, features, hardware support, or what ever.
Well if distros are still being run without SystemD, there will likely be distros that will keep X11 around for specific use cases and users.
7:05 it can work but some things can get funky if the active xwayland window doesn't match to the same monitor.
Its not just a transition of technology. It's a technical manifestation of humanity drifting from efficiency and rationality into decadency and stupidity, as all modern (anything since Windows Vista / KDE4 / Gnome3) so called 'desktops' are utter trash when it comes to what a computer desktop should actually deliver. These are no desktops anymore, instead they merely are 'kiosk mode GUIs' with functionality and configurability dumbed down to the level of 'switch brains off on your couch' like a game console instead of a productivity tool for conscious people. I utterly hate what these terrible abominations symbolize: The human civilization is deteriorating.
Wait Awesome is a dwm fork?
It is
I use cage and ReGreet in conjunction with greeter as my display manager (to login in hyprland or i3) and one time try to run i3 directly on cage (from tty) with Xwayland rootfull mode and it detect my two screen as large screen. Is junky but it works
rootful mode thing sounds like the fun kind of dumb, so please do try it
tbh the cage-kyosk thing seems like a band-aid or a laceration time of situation!
Good riddance. Less clones, less code that Linux ecosystem needs to support.
As a hyprland user, I have no problems with wayland. At all.
I don't understand what you people are doing lol, is it your hardware?
Probably Nvidia 9 or 10 series GPU owners.
@@cameronbosch1213 Oh yeah...
_Those_
It still amazes me that people buy nvidia cards. Waste of cash imo.
Wayland isn't even an option for me at all, and most likely never will be [I am a Windows user]
Went a bit borg at the end there 😅 : "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!"
Luke smith raging in the middle of the forest rn that he cant use his hipster window manager
I wonder where Luke is, last I saw he was going around to crypto conventions
Gnome is straight up unusable for me on Wayland
I'd view it as a good thing to thin the herd a bit. Let the projects that see heavier usage get stronger and the others at worst stay as they are indefinitely.
Huge fan of hyprland and been using it for months. But there are some undeniable areas we need help with on Wayland. For instance, there is basically ONE screen lock program for Wayland, swaylock, and it has problems losing keyboard when switching virtual consoles or using a kvm and you can't login after that. The other issue is remote desktops there is no good solution yet.
Sunshine and wayvnc both work quite well for remote desktop, though still not perfect.
Gtklock also works well as a screen locker.
@@DeltaWhy1 gtklock has stopped development, and is no longer compatible with hyprland, sway etc because it depends on a feature that has been removed from most wayland compositors. swaylock/waylock is pretty much it now.
Just makes me reflect on how RHEL abandoning X11 is *a bold move* considering that a considerable portion of their userbase interfaces via RDP.
You can't lock screens in Wayland, by design. You mean there's one screen locking program for sway.
FVWM = Feeble Virtual Window Manager
Ya gotta cover miriway (by alan griffith), brodie :D
the Wayland shadow government lizard people will have to take xdotool from my cold, dead, hands
Try wtype or ydotool, I like wtype. Both are Wayland and ydotool can also work with x11
So, the same people who are tired of making sure X11 doesn't fall apart?
that's what I'm saying lol
Are there any performance disadvantages to running your programs inside a WM in rootful on top of something like Hyperland? Add Wine into the mix and there are really a lot of layers going on.
There's definitely some overhead but I haven't done enough testing to say if there is a noticeable impact
They'd better update XFCE then.
Good news, they are working on Xfwm adding Wayland compositor support. It's almost done afaik.
@@cameronbosch1213 I hope so! I can't stand Gnome or KDE. I really have been a long time user of XFCE because it's so snappy, comfortable, and customizable.
I've been having a shitty time with Wayland.
the video length; perfection :D
NO, no point in using Wayland. The devs should have taken funds or time to fix X. Why Gnome gets so much funds when the X has little?
Because people thought X would be around forever, as the old devs moved away and nobody stepped up to replace them
Just a question. would you be able to run sth. like GWE in this? i mean nvidia drivers are different for wayland
I don't care what's under the hood as long as stuff works, and for my current rig, wayland works better, I have lots of issues with X11, not saying wayland is free of issues but there are more with x11
I used window maker years ago
It's really the best reason to use Linux.
Most of these window managers come from the time when people didn't have enough RAM to run KDE or GNOME, so now with 8 GB of RAM being a real minimum, there is zero reason not to run KDE, for example. KDE is so customizable with themes, plugins, layouts, etc. None of these small window managers bring any real money or motivation for developers to do the Wayland port and there is nothing strange in software becoming redundant.
Not to mention most people just use webapps nowadays.
I was forcibly pushed to Wayland this summer when I bought a Framework laptop. X11 just wouldn't work well for me with my 6 screen setup without scaling-per-monitor. Also, the tearing on X11 was far to distracting on the High DPI display.
Compatibility is something Linux if often regarded for, but in fact it is bad in this respect.
Change the kernel a bit and some important component of the system and half the software ever build, that isnt simple posix command line stuff, won't work any more, and furthermore won't be compilable anymore even with great effort.
Sad to say this but Windows did a much better job about this. They mantained binary compatiblity (for the most part) from Windows 95 to 11 with compatiblity settings. Even some 16 bit Windows 3.0 apps can still run. The window manager was overhauled many times, a compositor was introduced.
Unfortunately this excessive competitive nature of open source is a double edged sword. Too many forks lead to incompatibility at some point. It is how Unix died.
In my opinion Wayland should have 100% compatibility with X even if it retains some security issues in those configurations.
It depends on what people mean by compatibility, Linux has support for hardware that Windows dropped years ago or in some cases never supported but that doesn't mean the entire software stack on Linux is maintained for every architecture
@@BrodieRobertson You are right about that, I meant software compatibility. Windows overhauled the driver stack many times and most old ISA/VLB/PCI era stuff doesn't have drivers anymore on basically anything after XP. In that regard open source does a better job for sure.
It does seem like there are ways for the various X11 bound DEs to migrate over into the Wayland future. I think it is a matter of motivation. I wonder if the various DEs or Tiling Window Managers could just utilize components of Kwin and Mutter as opposed to re-inventing a thing. Just a thought.
Video being 13:37 long was just a concidence, right? 😄
Wdym?
I'm not sure if i missed a mention of this, but running desktops in xwayland has real world benefits for the end user, and that is the desktop running in it's own context. The ability to do this actually fixes some X performance problems. Having a shim to then launch all X applications in their own XWayland context as they do under Wayland directly would be simpler than porting a desktop forward and reap benefits.
For an example look into the dev log of the X-Plane team. They discuss the process of porting to Wayland and half-measures taken.
I agree 150%. Many of the older window managers are all but dead and moving forward it just has to be easier to fork a window manager than creating one from scratch. Oh wait that is exactly what happened with all these ild X11 window managers.
As a side note I am a fluxbox fanboi . Hope something similar comes to Wayland
So... I'm kinda new to this discussion of Wayland -- I mean, I'm aware that Wayland exists, but I'm not sure why or what it aims to correct in X. This was a good intro, so thanks a lot. Subscribed on the strength of this and the Simple Apps video. Keep 'em comin'.
Xwayland won't be around forever, and I have already seen talk about deprecating it eventually (which will be a bit of shock to all the X11 apps when it happens).
labwc is NOT openbox... It's openbox-like... but its not openbox... :'(
I want to keep using openbox forever. D:
Still need a good dwm replacement. dwl is horrible and nothing else is anywhere near as customizable. Hyprland is sort of good but no built in bar and workspaces rather than tags. (gross)
When there really isn't any choice left, I'm hoping labwc has as many of Openbox's features as possible. Otherwise I might be stuck with KDE, which is good, but I prefer Openbox. Of the ones I''m aware of, those are the only 2 I would consider. Gnome and many others just can't be configured as I prefer.
It's clearly a problem. I had used bspwm and i3 on Xorg, and so it was quite easy for me to switch to sway, I can imagine myself still preferring Xorg over Wayland had sway not been existed. Speaking of sway, why not just fork from sway? It has almost all the features you need and has been quite stable.
Real men run fvwm3 on Wayland.
Real men run Window Maker on everything.
I was reading about this somewhat recently. Might've been Nate Graham, but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that. Anyway, whoever it was, they talked about how not everything would make the transition to wayland and perhaps some of these small teams whose projects are 98% similar might need to join forces and get over that 2% difference.
And then there's whatever window manager it was that basically said "No" to wayland years ago, and now they are trying to recruit someone with the knowledge to get them there.
Why does:
Gnome = GaNome
when
Garden Gnone != Garden GaNome
Ask the GNOME team