Writing Women
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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There isn’t one right way to Write Women, so let’s see how different outstanding filmmakers approach the female experience in different ways.
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Alec Johnson
Alyssa Garcia
Amanda de Carvalho
Beverly Paganucci
Cameron Edwards
Chris Abbott
Christopher Nelson
Cristiano Oliveira
Don Lindell
Frank-Rune Sjåstad
Hannah Jones
Henrik Lindhe
Houston Paquette
Jeanne Nugent
Josh Prezgay
Kristi Delasia
lode desmet
Max Shmorhun
Norman Dorsch
Theodore Aronson
William
Zachary Crabtree
The dialogue between Lady Bird and her mother in the Goodwill, when they're arguing and then exclaiming over a dress with absolutely no segue in between, is literally the only true mother-daughter representation I've ever seen. Like that's it
yes, totally! my mom and i do that all the time lol, it just shows the level of unconditional intimacy, love and trust there's between a mother and her daughter
true. I could relate so much
Mother daughter relationships are so difficult to navigate. It's a good scene!
How many times I've had this exact moment with my mom... truly movie magic
This is why writing women is so much fun. You can flow from one thought to another completely different thought without needing to explain too much, then let the contrasting thoughts complement. Writing from a female perspective also allows you to layer emotions and desires rather than roll them out one at a time, as with a male character. Women add so much to the subtext of their stories. And subtext is where all the fun meaty parts of a story are.
This is a great take on writing women, but there is one thing I'd like to add. Throughout the video, you referenced masculine traits in female characters as being strong and powerful and made out the feminine traits to be on the vulnerable, weaker side. I believe that there is a great power and strengthy in femininity that has yet to be explored in both cinema and video essays.
Like you said there are very few positive traits traditionally considered feminine in popular culture, or at least fewer than there are positive traits considered masculine. But have you seen this video essay on femininity in cinema? I found it pretty awesome.
/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7EjlefWLnxCzLbBHU4Dz6R
ruclips.net/video/wmR8A1a8shk/видео.html
I did not but I have now. That was very good, and thank you so much for pointing it my way!
Exactly! This video was pretty much hypocritical and sexist because of this, using the word 'masculine' in association with strength, aggression etc. is so wrong.
cynicallygreen Oh, for crying out loud. Have you ever read any feminist theory in your life? Masculinity is associated with strength and other positive traits because it was constructed to be this way. Femininity and masculinity are used to solidify a gender hierarchy based on sex so they aren’t “equal but different” characteristics. People are not sexist for pointing out that masculinity is of higher value because this is the reality of living in a sexist society which made them so. Throughout all the ages people have had to “perform masculinity” to be respected and to elevate status as gender is learned behaviour rather than innate. Femininity is not deemed positive outside of individualist practise or its benefits to masculinity.
I don’t agree with the Kill Bill analysis. She 100% is the feminine archetype of the dangerous mother bear, avenging her unborn child and destruction of her future of a normal motherly life that many women want but she could never have. That’s why I look at Beatrice Kiddo as the ultimate female heroin. There is nothing inherently masculine in revenge, it’s the motivations behind it that can sometimes differ. Quentin got it right (or the graphic novel it’s based on) imo
Exactly! This guy is playing into stereotypes meaning this video turns out to be ultimately hypocritical and pretty much demeaning to women.
I completely agree with you.
The act of revenge in movies are often played by a male role so when a character of the opposite gender walks in with the motivation to avenge whatever it is they’re avenging it’s always perceived as masculine, general stuff like this can make creating a strong female character more difficult as people will often think of them as masculine which can often destroy the creators idea of making a female character. The main character of kill bill will always remain as a great example of a strong feminine character to me no matter what people will say.
cynicallygreen How exactly does him getting one thing wrong ruin the video lol.
I just found it ridiculous he looked at Kill Bill Pt 1. without referencing the sequel at all. If you've seen both the films, you are given so much more context to why The Bride is who she is, and i so hell-bent on revenge. And the "death of her femininity" statement is also ridiculous if you've seen the 2nd part. It's the death of her freedom from Bill, being able to have a normal, fulfilled life, and a chance for her child to live in a world un-tethered to the sins of her father. Not to mention her pregnancy completely changes her outlook on life. And being pregnant is something exclusive to the experience of being a woman and it's completely ignored.
He says “this movie doesn’t tap into a distict female experience” however 1. She was pregnant during her wedding. 2. at the end of vol. 2 she realizes she is a mother with is probably the MOST distinct female experience.
I loved all of of this except "theres no wrong way to write women" yeah there are an infinite great ways to wrote women, but there definitely are wrong ways.
I think they clarified this was a pun that didn't come across through voiceover. It was meant to be "there's no wrong way to RIGHT women."
@@jackfinn8592 Yeah, but it's not really clear. That line, ironically enough, needed work
@God of Nothing No, there is no wrong way to write any kind of character. You can make every type of character interesring, with the right story... Its more the "how" than the "what" or "why", when we talk about quality. And just like in real life, there are all kinds of people.
There is no wrong way to write a woman nor is there a right way. There is no wrong way to write a character. Theres just a character type that you dont like that you think is wrong.
I see it as wrong ways of writing characters is possible it shouldn’t matter of their gender, that isn’t well put but hopefully you interpret it as I meant
"does not seem to tap into a distinctly feminine experience" 6:03. I understand what you're saying here but I totally disagree. The bride being murdered while pregnant is an experience as distinctly feminine as being scrutinized at work/gazed at for being a woman like the case of Silence of the Lambs. I think there's a lot about Kill Bill that makes it a distinctly feminine story. The whole movie would read much differently if she wasn't a mother.
This dude seems to think that because she's ruthless and Badass, she's masculine? To me her mama bear shit is a classic female fantasy. It just uses a bunch of masculine tropes.. But isn't that a part of the fantasy, too? Getting shit done the way I man is allowed to.
"O that I were a man! I would eat his heart in the marketplace!"
"Kill Bill has a woman playing a masculine role."
Oh man, you must not know many mothers.
RIGHT?? That's all I could think about during that portion of the video.
I know right? She showed like, no aggression while she killed all those people. Totally not a masculine trait.
LOL Right.
He said “a masculine role” as in role in a movie, like the kind of movie part a man would play, not a role in the world
I mean, those mothers are indeed masculine in character, but they’re still Women
I, for one, like to think that the hero in Kill Bill is a way to prove masculine heroes aren't masculine at all. They're just characters.
YES
That is a really interesting take on it.
What does this mean?
Then I guess you would agree both feminity and masculinity are arbitrary standards for classifying human character? Even then I think we can't deny that it is a trope that was often reserved to male characters and a female character taking on the role represents a subversion of it (or at least did in those earlier takes. It's pretty much become a trope of its own by now).
I think that although we should strive to stop gendering behaviour ignoring its relevance in current times and media may be a bit of a waste when you could further exploit their potential to be analyzed within a referential framework, in contrast to enabling the status quo or missing out on some narrative goods by going in as a complete outsider. Unless you just wanna have fun that way, that's perfectly fine too. Just a contribution with my own perspective though.
Exactly! This video pissed me off so much because it was so the opposite of what it was actually trying to preach. This person needs to educate themselves more if they're a male making a video about writing women.
Bit off topic, but the way this video mixed when Clarice told her story of the lambs, combined with when she actually goes down Buffalo Bills basement was quite the eye-opener!
I hadn't realised the similarities earlier. She was in some ways re-living that old trauma again...
lol how could you miss that, it's in the title!
Yeah, but I hadnt quite realised the similarities with confronting Buffalo Bill in his basement, and her old memory of searching for and finding the lambs in the basement. The similarities were shown beautyfully in this video.
Ahah same, felt like facepalming
Duh...
Damn now I have to see ladybird!
And for the record, there is a wrong way to write/portray women...Michael Bay does it quite consistently.
Michael Bay does a lot consistently, little of it good.
Is there really though ?
It all depends on your moral values which is worth a whole life of debate on its own.
And even if a universal moral ground was found (which is impossible in itself), you'd still have to debate whether or not means of expression like litterature, cinema or video games need to abide by those rules.
Which I don't think they should.
(I don't disagree with you for the most part, but I'd like to point out that thise is not as clear as you make it sound)
@@arenkai I don't consider it a moral question, I just prefer movies that focus on storytelling and less on seeing how many explosions can be fit in the shortest time possible.
I would say there is a wrong way to portray women. It's not wrong to focus on a person's sexuality in a story, so long as it relates to the story. If the female character is only there to be an eye candy reward, I'd say the character was done wrong, because it will pull me out of the story to see characters used as things. It is just a personal opinion, but I think it's one that a lot of people share to some degree.
He did in another comment that it's a pun but you can't catch it because he's says it "there is no wrong way to RIGHT women"
arenkai you are correct! Everything is fluid, life is chaos! But I think anyone who thinks a woman is an object is a piece of shit and shouldn’t be making movies with corporate partnerships.
"I take a man, and I take away reason and accountability" - The most telling line of how media saw women overall until very very recently.
EXACTLY! This quote almost made it into the video (great movie, btw).
This is not an accurate statement. Hell, even the movie you are quoting showed the contrast with that statement. There are a LOT of strong female characters with reason and accountability going back decades, as illustrated in the video you just watched. Was the quoted mind set more common? Yes for sure. Of course now we are reaching a polar opposite mindset where the way the "media" defaults to write women is as a Mary Sue. We will find a balance some day. PS - this is not a knock with the Mary Sue thing. Keanu Reeves and Vin Diesel have made a career out of playing Mary Sue's. More so a product of lazy writing than sexism in my opinion.
RogelioDelaToro Solid point.
the Lost Q Many of the best female characters are "Mary Sue's." Clarice and Ripley would fit the criteria, and they're beloved. The Bride is a cheap caricature and the girl in Lady Bird is so realistic it renders her completely uninteresting. We're going to keep finding things problematic till there's nothing left to write about.
The mainstream media has proven itself to be unreliable, just like how it loves to label women as irresponsible, it labels men just as often as abusive and homophonic when the narrative is convenient.
Honestly the fact that "the woman experience" can be a theme in and of itself says so much about society
Well, we have "the man experience" too. But since the beginnings of cinema (and earlier) it has been relabeled as "the default experience.""
George Felton soyboy
LordDoucheBags Really got ‘em there, didn’t ya?
Keyboard Cockatoo Yup, I’m in physical pain from “lorddouchebags” keyboard warrior prowess. And then they found $100. And all the other incels clapped. And Albert Einstein was there, for some reason
@@LordDoucheBags the right says we cant meme but they have like three jokes
So many times where I’ve watched a movie or tv show, the stark differences in how the male and female characters are written stand out like a sore thumb. Where the male characters have personal goals and struggles relating to their story, the women are written to only have goals and struggles relating to a male figure (often the protagonist), and little else. The director would have very obviously thought deeply about the character arc, motivators, and ideals of the male characters, and then have only thought about the woman in regards to how she thinks about the male characters. Rarely do I get to see a female character with a well-rounded personality, goals outside of the men in her life, and a satisfying and deep-meaning character arc that doesn’t revolve around the male protagonist.
What are your thoughts on Imperator Furiosa? Because she literally *drives* the movie, but her struggles do stem from how men treated her.
Damn you must not watch a lot
Of movies or tv shows theres
Many & a multitude of female
Charecters that are compelling
And have well rounded personalities you just
Ignore them like most
People do, Because
People unironically see
All women as victims
and always downplay
Their accomplushments
Or charecters that are
Well written because
The Victim mentality
Is too strong
Reducing women
To just victims
Taking away their
Agency or responsiblity.
There are two kinds of people, people who liked Lady Bird, and people who have not watched Lady Bird.
I thought the trailer looked awful, like a really cliche "I'm so edgy" teenage rebellion film. I guess I'll have to give it a chance.
@@dbrant90s the joke went over your head skskdjs
mankytoes I was the same when I watched the trailer. I was so put off, and it looked like something that had been done a hundred times before. But my dad loves going to the cinema so I decided to go and see it with him, thinking to myself that if it was as terrible and cliched as I thought it was going to be, only two hours of my life would be wasted.
I’ve watched ladybird five times since then.
And me.
@@AS-yj5ru it didn't
Ladybird's characterizations of the mom and daughter was insanely accurate and real. The Good Will scene was on point and hilarious.
"There's no wrong way to write women".... You sure buddy?
Yeah
This is a great video as always, but I kind of disagree with saying that The Bride is a masculine character. Why? Because she's tough? Kills a lot of people, is portrayed as aggressive and violent and fights a lot? Is seeking a cinematic level of vengeance? I wouldn't say those things are *Literally* masculine, I'd say that's more our stereotype that we all buy in to. Really, if we think about it, I think The Bride acts as excusively like a fictional character, reguardless of gender. That masculine ideal of being a tough heroic badass taking out ninjas and whatnot is a total fictionalized myth. No man is like that, whether they want to be or not. It's an idea. The Bride of Kill Bill I feel is more like Ripley how you described; A character that is written for a cinematic story, who just happens to be a woman.
Also great insight into Silence of the Lambs here, that was very interesting, and other than the moments where the groups of cops look at her while shes there as if she's an outsider, I hadn't considered the whole movie to be about gender and the whole character to have so much meaning in just her gender. Makes me appreciate it more actually.
Lastly, funnily enough I think those characters of Lady Bird probably best represent every real person, man or woman, more so than any of the three main one's you discussed, just simply because that movie's a lot closer to reality, or atleast, a normal, average person's reality. Like being a man I still feel like the characters of Lady Bird would be more relatable to me than the ultra badass Bride or the capable and tough Ripley just because Lady Bird is a lot more grounded in general.
Ok, essay or whatever the hell this was is over. Sorry if my point's come accross stupid or not in the way I intended... In the end, awesome job as usual
She is stereotypically masculine, that's what he's getting at. The whole point is that she is replacing a man in a role that for most of cinematic history has been reserved for the male - although I don't think he's correct on the whole revenge = masculine thing, because the idea of a mother avenging the death of the unborn child she was carrying is a nigh female-exclusive experience. (Not to mention, the stereotype of the aggressive "mama bear" defending her children)
This was just fantastic, the editing comparing Clarice’s traumatic lamb story with her saving Buffalo’s victim was so well done.
I like this video. Writing a good woman isn't as simple as "just write it the same as a guy". Men and women may be equal but they undeniably think differently and have different experiences and views. So they should get movies exploring that.
True, but i also don't think the author of this videos focus on emotions as being a more feminine take on women is accurate either.
@@tadhgmcgrath1409 I don't think he said that
This is incredibly transphobic. Don't you know gender is just a social construct? BIGOT! /s
@@yeahiagree1070 very funny. For me, as a woman, different thinking means: planning beforehand my way home in the night, thinking that i should be liked by everybody (which is, from my experience, more common for women) or problem saying no.
Johanka C.
No of those are inherently feminine.
I mean there are plenty of women who don’t plan a way back home, there are men who want everyone to like them and women who are perfectly cable of saying no if they want to.
Sure their could be a slight bias, but these certainly aren’t universal and they aren’t even significantly different ways of thinking. It’s just being more responsible/sociable.
"Ripley could be a man or a woman and it would be just as good." ...in a movie that plays on fears of sexual assault and sexual violence...
Also Aliens is literally ABOUT motherhood
but Alien is not about motherhood, and played on the fear of sexual assault from a male perspective. I hear Ripley was a man in the screen play for Alien. In contrast, Aliens was written with a female character in mind and this is where motherhood came in.
This may sounds weird, but whenever I need to write a great female character, I always use my mother as reference, because most of the time mother figures have all the trait of a great female character.
Moms are usually kind and sweet, but also tough and badass, they can be flawed, but they are always the one we seek for counsel
tang roro every time i need to write a GREAT male character, i think of tang roro. he is so believable and dynamic, he is my only reference for half the population because i see the rest of men as a special interest group. cute!!
James Cameron thought the same thing! He modeled ripley and sarah connor off of his mom, who always supported his dreams. Funny,tho, that he respected women in cinema but not in real life. Being married 5 times, he certainly didn’t treat his wives well
Ripley was actually written as a man, originally. I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s always a good way to write women characters.
Ripley was written gender-neutral, as were all the characters. He talks about this in the first seconds of the video. Your comment is confusing.
TheHopperUK No, the video has it wrong. The original script had Ripley written as a man, but Ridley Scott ended up giving the part to Sigourney Weaver. It’s a very well know production note, google it.
I will! Thanks for the correction, friend!
TheHopperUK S’all good! :D
So heres the thing, the script was written for all characters to be gender interchangeable, that script note he showed was real. Where the confusion lies is that everyone assumed it would be played as a male and they did try to cast a male until at the last minute they decided to cast a female instead.
This is the thing, I like gender being ignored in fantasy (like superhero movies and Star Wars and stuff) but I’m okay with it when it’s important (like you pointed out in silence of the lambs)
Good video.
onyourleftbooob 100% was gonna say OP must be a man or at least a bit blind at times lol
...I say ‘how I prefer female characters to be written’, and somehow that implies I like how it’s currently being handled....okay.
Yes I am a guy.
And no, I don’t like how the female characters are being handled in most modern fantasy...because they are doing it wrong.
Stars Wars Episode 7 was aggravating to me because they didn’t go for a more original story and instead went for soft reboot, and most annoyingly they broke certain lore. Plus they didn’t develop Reys character enough and she lacked a motive for me. Nothing to do with her being a woman, but just lazy/safe writing. (People only pointed out that she was female because she seemingly was the most powerful Jedi without an ounce of training or even guidance how to use force, where as every male character did...to some degree, not an issue for me)
Episode 8 was kind of the same, only that didn’t ignore gender for me, it specifically wrote most of the Male characters as hot head idiots, and the females as more condescending authoritative, where it doesn’t specifically make gender an issue through dialogue but if you know a thing about writing you can easily see how the writers wanted to portray certain characters. Rey was far more interesting in the film but it ultimately felt like it was playing catch up from what JJ simply avoided doing in episode 7. Again, not a problem with Rey, but more aggravated by lore breaking and bad writing...and directing at times too.
Now I’m fine with a female character being in charge/authorative/smarter then a male one, but when you specifically make men hot head and stupid, it’s rather like writing women as weak minded and flimsy damsels, it’s a false perception of the other sex and kind of a stereotype.
Rogue one wasn’t exactly a great movie either but on the gender aspect I actually liked that film as It becomes an invisible issue. I just like immersive writing. That’s all I want. I’m bit of a film snob.
The captain marvel situation is another recent discussion about this, but I feel my main issue with that is how Brie Larson made the film political in the press. Instead of letting the movie do the talking, they have to put a label on it now and I don’t personally agree with that. People are sick of politics now and that’s why they like gender to be ignored, they want to escape from it. That’s why movies like alien appeal to me more.
onyourleftbooob
Could you at least apologise for the mistake you made?
onyourleftbooob-a position of privilege? I assume you aimed that to me, You don’t know anything that me and my family has had to go through.
And yes that’s fine for them to make movies like captain marvel, even if they have feminist agendas, but men simply won’t wanna go see it when they are being generalised by the main actress in it.
Anyway, I posted a comment, I don’t want a thread of debating. I like gender being invisible in fantasy, that’s it.
@@TheArsenalgunner28
I personally don't think gender should be invisible in fantasy. If the writer wants to say something about gender, they can definitely use it in their fantasy setting, as well as race. Being a fantasy story doesn't exclude a fantasy world from having similar issues that we have in the real world. Even Avatar: The Last Airbender tackled gender a few times. I personally think fantasy that isn't afraid to delve into real problems from time to time are the better ones. ATLA wouldn't be nearly as good if it ignored these things.
The way I see it, unless the social connotations (i.e. sexism in the workplace) or sexual connotations (i.e. pregnancy) are a crucial element being explored, I feel that the idea of both masculinity and femininity are both illusions. To put it simply, not all men are big and strong, and not all women are damsels in distress.
I think the genderless approach of character writing is really solid, which is part of why I love Ellen Ripley in Alien and Aliens so much. She's not incredibly feminine nor masculine. Her actions and quirks in both movies are just badass, but not like Stallone/Schwarzenegger masculine badass, but something more unique.
so, first of all, I think you're right about that and I absolutely love me a genderless approach to writing characters. it's brilliant.
but then maybe to represent the whole spectrum of the human experience you should just explore ALL the possible ways of writing women (and other minorities who've been misrepresented) starting with adding those exact groups to writing rooms.
because if you tell a group of straight white male writers "write some kind of character but don't specify their gender" they might still default to creating the kind of character they see on screen and identify with the most. even if they're incredibly good and talented it's understandable that that would happen and we'd just get a female character with "traditionally male" traits.
not that that's inherently bad (bc it sort of humanises women, which is a sad thought but anyway) just,, it's only one way of living life, there's more to explore yk.
when you can make a movie about a universally relatable experience that's wonderful. but not telling stories about all sorts of lives, from all sorts of perspectives, that's kind of missing out. I know you weren't saying that it's just my little addition
tldr gr8 idea but we'd probs need diverse writers to make it happen
@@susannam3923 that's a good point, I think I agree for the most part.
There's a deleted scene in Alien where Ripley's on Parker's case over the ship repairs, and Parker snarls to Brett 'just one time, man' like he wants to lay a punch on her, and Brett says 'what you'd really like to do is ball her'. Can't imagine that exchange happening if Ripley was a man. In my opinion, everything that was cut from Alien improved it immensely.
I'm a girl and really struggle writing women, but writing men is like a walk in the park
Good video! I'd like to slightly counter that the Bride's storyline is largely rooted in the female experience, but not a positive one. The acts of violence that she undergoes with Bill and the men at the hospital are not random, they are acts of violence that specifically threaten women such as rape and forced miscarriage. The Bride is a staple of what strength is perceived by the genders: The strength of men is most often measured by how much violence they can inflict; the strength of women is most often measured in how much violence they can endure. The Bride is a mixture of both, channeling masculine and feminine tropes in different moments of the movie to make her appeal like the most powerful character in the movie, while keeping that compassion towards Nikkia Bell and Gogo Yubari that is most associated with women.
Love this comment, i agree
No wrong way to write women huh?
Ever watched supergirl?
What's wrong with super girl ?
You deserve so many more subscribers, this channel is legitimately the best movie/film based channel ive ever seen and is edited perfectly. Every video ive seen on this channel has surprised me in the significance of each subject and has changed the way I see the art of films. Keep it going man, its a sin that cinemasins has more notoriety.
Bro, revenge is not masculine. Women are human, and the male experience is not the neutral window to view the world. Writing women for the gaze of men is how to write women badly.
Oh boyare we getting into the
Whole male gaze rheoteric.
I watched Ladybird with my mother and my god we were so struck by how honest and accurate it was. So much so we felt it hit too close to home in many scenes.
Holy crap...your juxtaposition of Clarice's childhood story alongside her confrontation with Buffalo Bill is frickin' brilliant! I never realized before how her description of the event mirrors the exact movements she's making through the house.
I watched Lady Bird with my Mum and it felt great to see that kind of relationship explored so well. I often struggle with ‘strong’ female characters because some people seem to think strong means rejecting femininity and vulnerability, essentially just be as masculine as possible. I’d love to see more female characters who embrace those typically feminine traits that are so often seen as weaknesses
I’ll admit I was worried when I read the title. There are countless RUclips videos of men bemoaning certain types of female characters that it made me anxious. The lesson here is handled very well, there are multiple positive ways to represent women in media and there is no “right way” or “wrong way” just as there may be no wrong way to represent a man.
This is really interesting
Lee R and yet there are so many wrong ways to portray women lol
ALBUMOF2008 did I stutter.
There are wrong ways to portray men too...
Lee R there are people who can help you with that
Star Wars Rogue One: Literally one female character
People online: FeMiNiStS ArE TaKiNg OvEr
SandyTheMaster on god bro ppl these days overreact cause there’s a female character as the mc when most general movies have a male role
I have never before felt a film resonate with me the way ladybird did. It is one of those films that has such a "feel good" vibe to it while not having a too predictable and simple plot.
And yes, the way they fight etc is so, so relatable.
I don't know how guys interpretted this film but I saw so much of my relationship with my mother in it.
Really love the film.
I grew up with two sisters and it has had a huge influence on the way I relate to women. I see the jaw-droppingly ignorant and even grotesque comments posted by some men online and I wonder how they could ever write those things.
Then I think that perhaps they have never been able to relate to a woman as a *person.* Unfortunately, the way our society is structured, it is hard for a lot of men to get to know women as people unless they grow up with them.
And there was nothing in Ladybird that surprised me :)
You assume only men online write about women like that. Be in my shoes as a woman getting bullied by women and men. They can be equally vile to each other believe it or not.
Dude this is a good video BUT your analysis of the Bride is deeply, tragically and unnecessarily flawed. The narrative is split over two films. Vol 2 is not a sequel of Vol 1 it's one continuous story.
The choice to have a continuous (albeit with interspersed flashbacks) narrative in Vol 2 and a non-linear narrative in Vol 1 is VERY deliberate. All the character development for the Bride happens in Vol 2. She ends the film as a mother. Not a killer. Her realization of that is mirrored in the relatively anti-climactic fight with Bill and the play fight that the Bride, BB (her daughter) and Bill have when she first meets BB.
The whole story ends with an integration of the maternal into "the badass". She completes the heroine's journey by merging the masculine heroes journey with an actualization of her femininity. She becomes a whole person by going the masculine side of the revenge narrative and by (literally) embracing her maternal side with BB.
There are at least two wrong ways of writing women:
1. Mary Sue
2. Damsel in distress
Ze Rubenator or lampshading, when the woman is used as a plot device that reduces her to being no more human than an object of value.
"There's no wrong way to write women"? That is such a broad statement. If that's true, is there no wrong way to write men? Or no wrong way to write at all? I'm not mad I just thought that statement was completely out of place after a video of how to write women characters creatively
I thought that gender was fluid and that binary roles are a social construct, so why are you all getting so upset about how one "gender" is being portrayed. Surely it doesn't matter.
@@spenser9908 you try really hard to troll.. youve posted trolling replies to other comments... kinda sad dude, maybe you should spend your time doing something worth while? a bit pathetic.
The line was “there’s no wrong way to right women”
@@TheQwertyman999 seems like he's been quite successful to me
It's a pun, the other guy said it.
I'm any case, yes, there are basically no ways to write a "wrong" female or male character. Why would there be? There are a handful of characteristics that define men and women. Pregnancy, menstruation, being prone to emotional tilting. Are a few for women, this is not an opinion, it's just true and if you doubt it I have evidence.
Men have conflict written in the genes, and the protective instinct.
There are more but these are the the most basic. People are NOT a checklist. People are difficult, and we don't have enough boxes to understand what they are, only by using boxes.
Fully obsessed with your visual essays. Thank you for sharing your thought processes and analytical sensibilities to us. So very appreciated.
i honestly can't think of a vulnerable male hero in a movie. Maybe Deadpool but the hypermasculine male experience isn't really explored much in cinema
Newt Scamander might fit the description "vulnerable":
ruclips.net/video/C4kuR1gyOeQ/видео.html
Newt from the Fantastic Beasts
Brando in On the Waterfront. He's extremely vulnerable once he decides to take a stand against the mob. And basically any time he's around Eva Marie Saint.
Rocky in the original Rocky. The part after he goes for a walk and right before the fight.
James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause.
Andy, Redd et cetera in The Shawshank Redemption.
Male “hero” limits yourself to action, doesn’t it? Full Fat Videos made a good case for Thor in Avengers Infinity War and Thor Ragnarok. A lot of male heroes have a journey to become more confident, loving or honorable, but that probably doesn’t count.
This is a very solid video but it was kinda lacking that you didn’t include any queer women and of color in it. Granted the examples you used are very universal but I also think that there are also nuances and more aspects that could be taken to account. Like how writing women as tough and dominating can be stigmatizing for black women but also subversive for Asian women who are often portrayed as submissive.
With some research I think it could make for an interesting follow up for this video and could also take the conversation to a more interesting place
Danielle Helman YUP!!
I am a 19 year old girl. I love this. I related to ladybird more than any coming of age movie I have ever seen.
well, you’re obviously not 19 anymore, but I’m a 19 year old rn. Ripley and Sarah Connor have always been my favorites!!!
@@trevorfrenk4137 22, graduated and a science teacher, life goes by really fast!
@@wtv2128 wow good for you!!! all the best!
Dude, you completely overlooked the thematic importance of Ripley finding out her daughter was dead in Alien 2 and the Bride's motivation of finding her daughter was crucial to her character.
I mean, I understand that's not the point of the video. But that's like, crucial info.
I don't think kill bill is done quite enough justice here, watching the two volumes back to back you realise how much abuse and torment the bride has gone through. In addition to that although Revenge is a large part of her character, the bride also is very much a female character. The men in the movie objectify her and she often breaks down her façade of stoicism in various parts of the movie. The women in this movie respect each other even when they are contracted to kill each other. There are a whole bunch of gender dynamics which have been completely ignored. It is also important to note that Uma Thurman had a major role in constructing this character.
I think most importantly the introduction of her daughter to the story changes everything showing her struggle is not that of a man but of a women and a mother.
Very good points. There is still a respect amongst all the female assassins in the movie. She's even allowed to walk away once she tells one of her targets she is pregnant. I was surprised how poorly this video essay analyzed the film. Maybe he was only focusing on Pt. 1, but it's not an accurate analysis if you ignore Pt. 2. He even chooses the scene where The Bride kills Buck in Pt. 1 and thinks that has nothing to do with gender?
@@Ray03595 right? The execution of Buck was VERY MUCH a woman's fantasy.
In the complexity of human experience everybody has a slightly different take on male and female roles and characters. I think that it's a great thing that more and more women are making movies. Every individual sensibility has its own take on the world and on character building: the more people play the game, more exeptional writers emerge. (don't forget there are a lot of bad writers and directors, male and female... That's life)
My favorite women in film and TV: Zoe Washburn from Firefly/Serenity, Akeelah Anderson from Akeelah and the Bee, Gamora from Guardians of the Galaxy especially Vol. 2, Laura from Logan, Rapunzel from Tangled, Jocelyn Carter from Person of Interest, Diane Nguyen from Bojack Horseman, April Dwyer from Parks and Rec, Misty Knight from Luke Cage, and Ripley from Aliens.
This whole video I was so convinced and I agreed with everything until out of nothing he just went "there's no wrong way of writing women" I-
Really enjoyed this vid but surely you must see Ripley and the Bride as somewhat feminine when they both express so much passion/emotion as mothers. Ripley is only sad when she thinks about her daughter and the bride’s fury about the ‘loss’ of her baby and her determination to take her daughter from Bill are pretty significant in the plot.
Usually I really like your videos, but this one fell short imo. You seem to be saying "women can be written like men, like women, or like neither." And well.... yeah? You're not wrong by any means, but I was expecting a little bit more on the ways women are written, portrayed, directed, etc. Maybe comparing some well written women to some badly written ones, could've even brought in Kubrick and his self-proclaimed inability to write women as well as his male characters.
I don't disagree with anything you said, and I'm glad you brought up Ladybird, since that is a great example of a relationship that we have rarely seen in film and one that for the most part only a woman would've been able to write or direct. I just felt like this is only scratching the surface of how women have been portrayed in film and would've liked some deeper discussion.
Maybe this topic just needs a female film critic to dive into the nuances.
This was awesome
8:25-8:28 is SO REAL! 🤣🤣🤣
And this is why we need people who live from certain perspectives telling stories too. So many different POVs that often easily go under the radar because it's so nuanced and might seem to be one way from the outside but be completely different to those who actually experience it.
"There's no wrong way to write women."
Captain Marvel: *Allow me to introduce myself*
You got it right. A big part of film is exploring the vast amount of perspectives in the world and drawing it in to the human perspective we all have. Movies with women protagonist don't need to be about womanhood; however, there is a perspective that can influence the characters decisions and motives. This is not a bad thing! This is what's great about film! I want to be presented with an authentic depiction of a character in order to empathize with their perspective. Great video!
I absolutely adore "The Silence of the Lambs." It seems like such a creepy thing to say, but I think your analysis is pointing out all the things that make it so great. Clarice is so vulnerable, yet strong; so inexperienced, yet clever; and so eager to prove herself to Crawford and several other men, yet she stands up for herself ("it matters"). I think shifting the focus from Clarice to Hannibal is the main thing that made the other movies just gross outs with no real substance (in spite of having great actors).
I actually never felt like Uma was portrayed as masculine. Even though traditionally men move the plot along generally, since I was a kid it seemed that she was driven by emotional revenge and anger from pain rather than trying to embody masculine characteristics.
I never got the feeling she was a masculine character. The fact she was a woman was pretty important to the film.
Ladybird makes me cry every time😭 it perfectly captures the complexities of a modern day mother-daughter relationship like nothing I’ve ever seen before. It’s too real for me and my mom
2:30 through 3:45 that was incredible editing, gave me a new way to watch Silence of the Lambs. Thank you for this incredible channel.
"There's no wrong way to write women."
Lol that's a good one.
I became a fan in between this and your last video. So I was super excited to consume this asap after burning through your entire collection. You do an excellent job every time. Thank you for your distillations!
Cameron critized Wonder Woman since she was oviously female character but that is just as valid way to write female action characters as Ripley.
The most recent Wonder Woman shows how you can have a strong female character who doesn't have to sacrifice their femininity in the name of badassery. Actually, the main thing I liked about that movie was that women inhabited a variety of roles within it, without any being looked down upon as lesser for whatever role they took. You had women who were physically weak or physically strong. You had women that needed protecting and women AS protectors. You had women as heroes and villians. It was just nice to see a more complete picture presented.
Julian Birch It sucks that the script was inconsistent.
Great video, really enjoyed it, and I also have some thoughts.
In response to your comments about Ripley in Alien (how the role could have been played by a man), I would agree but would also add that Ripley's journey in Aliens amends that issue by deliberately exploring themes and a character arc that just would not have worked nearly as well with a male character. The relationship between Ripley and Newt, as well as the contrast between Ripley and the Queen deepens the narrative of an already good sci-fi adventure in a way that you just could not have done with a male lead. Aliens also brings in the dynamic you mentioned with Starling in Silence of the Lambs in how the Marines (especially their leader) treat Ripley even though she was brought along as an 'expert'.
On the subject of the Bride, while I would agree that she embodies a character archetype traditionally played by a man, I would also add that I think what that's showing is not that Tarantino was basically making a story about a male character where he cast a woman but showing that the 'revenge movie protagonist' archetype is in itself gender-neutral. Like you mentioned, that type of a role is primarily played by men and thus is typically thought of as a male role (westerns as you mentioned being a big contributor in that). But what the Bride does is takes that idea and the motivating factors involved (the protagonist being wronged in some way by a villain with whom they share a past, a conspiracy to betray them, etc., etc.) and shows that those same ideas can just as easily motivate a woman to take revenge on people who wronged her.
In that way I think that characters like Ripley and the Bride are important female characters not necessarily because their stories mirror aspects of the real-world female experience but because they don't feel like they HAVE to. On the flip-side, there are also a lot of male characters in movies who don't necessarily mirror aspects of the real-world male experience. If the filmmaker wants to use the real-life female/male experience to help tell the story (and they do it well), then great! As in Silence of the Lambs and Aliens, it can absolutely make the films deeper and more impactful.
There’s no wrong way to write women is how you know this was written by a man. That aside, before watching this video I was fairly worried about how this was going to turn out but I was pleasantly surprised. While the commentary was clearly springing from a male perspective it was surprising thoughtful and fairly on base. Good job.
He said he was trying to make a pun. There is no WRONG way to RIGHT women. Went over most people's heads.
And I don't know how there can be a right way or wrong way to write characters necessarily. There's perhaps a bad way to write them, but that's up to each reader, listener, or watcher of entertainment. Some consider one character to be badly written and another will find that same character relatable.
Take Rey from Star Wars for example. I know some people who think she's a horribly written character while I really like that character. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
To me the best trait of the character of the Bride is that, in the end, when she finally gets revenge, that's the moment when she can express her frailty and love for Bill, and be truly herself. I think that's what make Kill Bill 1/2 a masterpiece.
You talk about women in 'masculine rolls'. Do you mean traditionally masculine rolls? 'Cause these examples seem to prove to me that it isn't that far fetched for women to portray them. You seem to be looking for moments in these movies that define masculine traits and feminin traits, like being 'delicate'. I think this perpetuates these traditional roles when writing for women.
That last line made me look up and remember to hit 'like'. Nice rounded script. 10 minutes is a great length for a RUclips video! I'll always watch a 10 minute video.
15 years since I first saw it, and I never put the parallels together between Clarice's story of hearing the screaming lambs and her rescue of the senator's daughter. Hot damn, that's clever!
Agent May and Daisy are a perfect example of great writing of women when it comes to mother daughter. They aren’t even related, but their relationship is clear and pure.
The Fall does a good job with this. So does Broadchurch.
I like how you spanned the basic gamut of character writing styles for female roles. You did a very good job of speaking from the female character's perspective in each of the examples you featured. Your observations are insightful. I scanned the comments and was disappointed at the number of ladies who strayed from the point. Of the three categories you mentioned, I understood the statement "there's no wrong way to write women" to be a sentiment as respectful as the manner you chose to speak on this subject. In today's climate, 'women in film' has become a subject often doused in lighter fluid. You did a great job. One of those likes is from me.
Wow overlaying the lecture conversation over the finale was mind blowing
Absolutely amazing. Your videos are some of my favorite things on the the interwebs 😊. So empowering.
Looove ladybird. Could watch it a million times
What she said about Ladybird is so true. If you have a sister you related so hard with the movie.
That night vision scene is truly terrifying. I love it lol
The ladies of the Spartacus TV series are incredible female characters and I'm always surprised that nobody ever mentions it. Ilithyia in particular is excellent. The feminine version of strong.
I absolutely adore your channel, and have for some time now. You put so much effort into them and I truly appreciate it. I want to be an actor, writer and director someday, and channels like yours really help.
Katara from avatar tla is also a good example
Yes another video!! I've been waiting FOREVER for another one! Thank you!! :D
was totally hoping you'd touch on Clairice. super cool video!
For me Ripley was just professional scientist and Clarice extraordinary detective who wasnt disturbed by any man except Hannibal Lecter
Clarice was clearly intimidated by her male colleagues at times but didn't let that stop her.
Ripley on Aliens(1992) is still probably one of the best representation of a feminine character being badass without being a masculine that I've ever seen.. the way she cared for Newt was something that only a true mother instinct would do..
Weird example, but I think Frozen is a pretty great example of great female leads. The story focuses around the sisterhood, with Anna’s romances being more of a side thing. Elsa gets to tell a story of alienation that can be translated to infinite human experiences AND a story about being thrust into a position of power/responsibility (with magic powers as well as the crown). Anna gets to tell a story of exploring self-identity and breaking out into the world. And THE story is about the bond between sisters and loving and fighting for (or against) each other, no matter what. Despite being an animated Disney movie, the sisters’ relationship feels very real and both characters get to show their personalities and strengths very differently. My sister and I love to sing the duets together - I’m always Elsa.
I strongly disagree, writing characters gender less. it's like saying " I don't see color ." Uhh, yes you do. If you say the experience in life as a black person, or Aisan or Hispanic person is no different than a white person or any vice versa, this is ignorant. We are not the same, which is why we are all so great.
Gender less like race less is the erasing of peoples identities.
This is actually brilliant. I watched this video weeks ago and keep thinking about it. Thank you for this!
I still so strongly dislike the phrase "strong female character". Maybe if it was used to mean 'strongly written' instead of 'total badass', I wouldn't be so frustrated with it, but as it stands it implies women are implicitly weak by nature, and any representation of them being emotionally vulnerable or otherwise is just showing their weakness; unfortunately it goes hand in hand with implying the same of men. The Ripley example does explain why so many men I speak to think Ripley is The Best Female Character Ever, because her gender doesn't other her, or get in the way of the story, and dudes seem to hate that (coughcaptainmarvelcough). But I find it can stymie a story's sense of reality, because women know their own experiences, so the lack of casual sexism is a subconscious "huh?" that leaves you feeling like the characters lack depth. It's fine in pure fantasy, I suppose, but when you're setting a story in the real world and then ignore the influences of sexism on your characters, you get weak (as in weakly written) female characters (no matter how fake strong they are, Natasha Romanoff).
Clarice Starling has always been a favorite of mine for that reason. She is not a victim at any point, even when she's at her most emotionally vulnerable. But she sits in a setting which grounds her in real life sexism (she did have a female Quantico friend in the books btw), and therefore she exists in a sense of (albeit very 80s) reality for her gender. Even if the dominance of men in her field is allegorical, or perceived (which would make her an unreliable narrator of sorts), it tells a more honest story to the female experience, without dismantling her as a protag at all.
I agree with you 80%
I'm so glad to see so many top comments are the ones calling out that closing line of "There's no wrong way to write women". (now I don't have to try and come up with a Rei/Last Jedi comment)
My faith in the internet was restored a little today...
Awesome as always.
I wish you'd mention Mildred Hayes from _Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri._ Frances McDormand was amazing in that movie, and imo it was one of the best ways you could write a woman
I don’t agree with your take on Alien. That Ripley is a young woman feels relevant to how her superiors continually ignore her concerns
You kept gendereing, stuff as if a narrative that is more agressive is "masculine" and if its passive is "feminine", like???? Why are you gendering narratives???? all genders can go on revenge quests and kill people with swords. Beatrix is a badass woman who wants revenge, that does not mean shes acting masculine.
This has emboldened me to write up a more polished draft of my grand opus - Chicks: and their much talked about feelings. It'll be a master work to underline how much of a sensitive new age guy I am as I craft a narrative leaning heavily into stereotypes about women being ruled by their emotions.
Beatrix Kiddo is the best female written character in my opinion.
I love that she also embraces her feminine side too.
Innuendo Studios has a great deconstruction of various female character tropes as they relate to Action movies. Specifically his Mad Max series of videos.
Beatrice was written so well. kill bill is the greatest film ever made, it wasnt her getting sexually assaulted to be powerful, it was just her boyfriend was Mad that she didn't want to be an assassin anymore or be with him and she wanted a fresh new life, the best writing ever and I'm happy to say as a woman that it's one of my favorite movies
Loved that! I've actually never seen Alien. Gonna change that tonight 😉
It's my personal favorite movie. You have to see it.
All 3 are very good
@@Dragonwing16 There are 5 (6) now, and only 1 is very, VERY, good.
Definitely watch it. Alien is more suspense/ horror. Aliens is more suspense/ action. I would say stick with those two because the ones after are really not worth it.
Don’t waste your time
I think the viewpoint on Clarice in SOTL is the same I have on Olivia Benson in SVU. Especially in the earlier seasons, she was the sole female detective dealing with male coworkers and criminals. Whilst her gender is not always at the forefront of every episode, you definitely see her sympathise more with female victims, which adds i guess a nice touch to the otherwise grim nature of the show. If the main character were a male detective, it definitely would not have the same affect, especially with the shows primary cause
"How do you write women so well?"
"Well, I start with a man... then I take away reason and accountability!".
God that scene is funny.
what is that from?
@@ojsimpson8426 jack nicholson says it in 'as good as it gets'.
@@joppippoj oh yeah I knew I heard that from somewhere. What are the odds though that a movie i saw like 2 days ago that I'd never heard of and only saw on a whim would be quoted
What does it mean?
katie It means a woman is a cheaper imitation of a man 😊 Which is, cool
You should have talked about avatar, that had great female roles.
Oh my god, when you played Clarice talking about the lambs as she's in buffalo bills house seriously opened my eyes.
Every male commenter who mentions Mary Sues in their comment owes me 20$
Oh boy oh boy! I already saw three talking about that. 60$ for you. Path of fame and glory is yours babyyyyyyyy
I agree with you respectfully and gently
What
What if the commenter was female?
@@dangerdan2592 in that case, well fuck you mary sue is a proven flaw in written females and you can't deny it's existance unless you wanna argue that useless real women are fucking supergirl