Great video and thanks Robert. Really informative video. What Prusa should really include with the XL is an enclosure with heated chamber and HEPA filter - that will complete the package. XL as it is today, cannot print ABS / PC / ASA / PA6 / PA12 or any new materials that requires enclosure, which severely impact the usability for those who actually need the size & versatility with their use.
AWESOME video, thank you so much for the video, this answers my question I asked on your previous video, I really appreciated you taking the time to make this video. Perfect analogy was used.
Usually being an early adopter with an established brand isn't a gamble, but the 3d printing market is moving so far, companies are being forced to move too quickly. I'd agree with your assessment, towards the end of the year I expect the XL to be a really powerful machine. From what I can see, the hardware is good (aside from the networking implementation). So hopefully it will all be software tuning.
X1C sounds appealing but XL sounds great. The only thing is the waste with the X1C. But also watching the XL enclosure video plus no way to watch the prints while you are at work. That’s another trade off.
I have the XL 2T, and for functional prints I would buy it again (instead of the 5 head). Sure, a third toolhead would unlock a couple use cases, but two heads have accomplished all my needs for now. Prusa also offers upgrade kits now, so there's that. Single head XL is the one config I don't recommend. Edit: Almost forgot about the missing enclosure. That's something that I will absolutely acquire for the XL at some point. Either from Prusa (when they release it) or one of the various third party projects.
@@jishani1I still have the option to upgrade if I have the need. TBH three tools would be optimal for me, but unfortunately Prusa only offers an upgrade to 5TH. Also, Prusa's long term support of their printers makes a big difference for me.
Now if one company or another offers multiple heads with color changing systems (like the AMS) then that would be a great hybrid. The other consideration with the X1C is not being limited to just the 5 colors. You can effectively set up to 20 different colors without having to really think about it.
Very nice video with a clear explanation of the thought process, it somehow is super hard to find some actual content like this on 3d printers these days since there are so many shills and it's pretty difficult to tell "reviews" or "comparisons" from "advertisements", at least with your channel I know I get some honest opinions instead of trying to sell me a printer with a promo code where the content creator receives a kickback. For the choice between a Prusa XL and a Bambu X1C the proposition is quite clear: do you just want an allround printer that works out of the box without too much fiddling (the Bambu, but you waste quite a bit of filament doing multi-material printing since there is only 1 toolhead that needs to be purged), or do you need a bigger work area with multiple toolheads so you can print more efficiently for projects that require these extras (the Prusa), but it gets really hard to tell the differences when there aren't any stand-out features of the printers. I'd be interested in a similar video but on comparable 3d printers, like comparing a Bambu X1C to a Prusa Mk4 with enclosure: they are about the same price, offer about the same functionality and it's really hard to find the exact differences and advantages/disadvantages between them aside from the Bambu being a CoreXY and the Prusa a bedslinger. For example the Bambu has CF rods in the gantry that are marked as wear items, but how many hours printing is to be expected before these need to be replaced? How open is the firmware on both these machines (especially the telemetry and weird language in the EULA leave me worried)?
Finally a video that hits the mark on why someone would choose the XL,, combining different materials in the same print. Someone making colored dragons is completely different than someone like me, needing to make complex silicone molding systems that use soluble supports to create void spaces in the final product. Great video which is helping me lean toward the XL.
The Xl is a very very niche device for my needs. None of my parts use dissimilar filament. I am hard pressed to fine a reason to mix PC/ABS or nylon with lesser filaments types(pla/petg etc) The waste argument is kinda moot in my world. The price difference cannot be ignored. 2500 worth of waste filament is a huge amount to justify the XL Just thinking about the math, a color swap is about .3-.7grams, before swap tweaks to get 30-50% additional yield I buy filament in bulk and that is about 200 -250rolls for $2500 I would need hundreds of thousands to several million filament swaps to just match the price of the XL before it prints a single gram of filament. That would could be years worth or printing before the waste is an issue. Also it's only waste if you deem it waste. There are several ways to reuse it. So you are correct size can be done with many other types of single head printers, and large multi filament prints it's main use case. 3500-4k is a hard sell.
This is pretty much exactly what I covered in the video. You don't have a need for it, so it's a terrible value for you. If you absolutely NEEDED those capabilities, it would be a matter of figuring how much money you'd be willing to give up to have those capabilities. Obviously the cost of filament will never offset those costs. BUT, time is money. If you could print out 2-3 faster due to a lot of filament changes, it might mean more parts in a day and more profit.
@@RobertCowanDIY Fair enough, I think you were spot on for use the tool that makes sense for the project. I just am personally hard pressed to find many uses for the XL. With the initial cost met, I am limited to non abrasive basic filaments. Those brass nozzles will get chewed up with abrasive filament. Printing [toxic] filament without proper enclosure, ventilation, or filtration is a non starter. A proper enclosure kit $??? and Obxidian hardened nozzles ($50x5) is additional salt on the financial wound. I have been following your channel for a while and forgive me if I am reaching with this statement but, you seem to be hard pressed in printing actual multifilament parts. The TPU/pla part was one, and multicolor marlin toy print was another. Some filaments do not bond well together and mixing filament with wildly different characteristics dont seem to work well according to my youtube searches. So while the printer is capable of multifilament printing it has very limited uses for what it is sold as. So if the XL is claiming the speed crown with multi color prints but in terms of overall volume $3500-4000 is 2-4 multicolor capable printers which on the whole would be faster than a single XL especially if you have to factor in hardened nozzles, enclosure... Those 2-4 machines would produce more than a single machine meaning more profit, less downtime.
I own both printers, and have been a prusa customer for years. When I got the Bambu I was very impressed with the ease of use and slick design, but when I had to reach out to their support I was surprised how hard it was to get a response. Prusa is top notch in terms of customer support and troubleshooting, which is also something to consider IMO.
Correct. I can't really comment on that since I haven't had to reach out to support on either, so I didn't include that as a data point. But others have mentioned this as well.
I think Prusa printers are quite overpriced for what the are. With the cost of a Prusa XL I could buy almost 3 Bambu X1C printers. I remeber how the mk2 still used those ugly and expensive tread rods with giant bolts yet it was as expensive as many higher end printers.
Having experience with both I agree with the Sedan vs Pickup comparison for average users. I would like to add that for serious multiple material printing the Prusa XL5 puts the Bambu X1C in the rear view mirror. It is incredibly freeing to pretty much ignore the number of tool changes. The difference is a lot more than just size and capability. I feel the XL is one of the best purchases I've ever made. You get what you pay for.
I have about 3000hrs on my X1c and just ordered a 5 head Prusa XL. The X1C has been great, especially for the money. I have been getting more into multi color and multi material prints and while the AMS does a good job it is definitely slow and generates a ton of waste. Often it ends up wasting more material than it actually uses on prints with a lot of swaps. Also the increased size of the XL will be nice. I will likely keep my X1C for engineering materials since the prusa is not enclosed though
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. They're just different machines and I use mine very differently. And strangely enough, sometimes I'm just in different moods and 'feel' like using one over the other.
Hi Robert, what printer of the similar printing volume would you have in mind if one does not need the tool changer? Bambu is a bit small for us. We have Raise 3D Pro3 but it is really glitchy...
XL 3.999 + tax and shipping…. Just buy 3x P1P wtih AMS and take leftover money and go dinner with wife and give her the rest of the money… life will be Amazing after that.
I had an XL on backorder for 2 YEARS. I attempted to finalize the order and tried to include some filament with the order because of the high cost of shipping Prusa supplies to the US. The Prusa rep said no can do despite it's in their web page that you can do it (I double checked). My wife has 2 Prusa Mk3S+ printers and bought a Bambu. She doesn't use the Prusas now. Every contact with Prusa has ended in frustration. I decided to cancel my XL order and will buy a Bambu instead. It's a thousand dollars less than a Prusa with 2 tool heads ands its only advantage is a slightly larger build volume, offset by fewer tool heads, but the primary reason is we are just fed up with Prusa. In my opinion, they have a chip on their shoulder.
I know this may not be the best place to discuss this, but I have a Mk3s+ and my biggest gripe is how long things take to print. Since I hate to leave any printer unattended, this is removing all the fun of designing any meaningful stuff. So can I kindly ask, was the Bambu a game changer in this respect or is it just hype? And would I be locked into their filament? Finally can I still slice and print locally without being dependant on the web? Thanks
@@johnfiott My wife says the Bambu is significantly faster than the Mk3s +, but I don't know if that makes it significantly faster than the Mk 4. She bought the Bambu because she was frustrated with the Mk 3. I upgraded the 3 to the 4 and I'm pretty satisfied with it. She tells me the Bambu is a speed demon and it has different speed options. The Bambu can use any filament. She prefers the Bambu slicer over the Prusa's (but she hasn't used v6). I got frustrated with the Mk 4 speed and print volume so I ended up re-placing an order for an XL, delivery time 6 weeks. Suggest you watch the RUclips videos comparing the Bambu to the Mk 4. There are lots by experienced users of both printers. Good luck.
Thank you, much appreciated. I was not aware that the XL is faster than the Mk 4, so maybe I will also consider that, although as a purely hobbyist use case I am pushing it a bit where it comes to budget, given that I am not expecting to make any money from this.
The pickup vs sedan is a great analogy. I’d used single head printers for years, but was more creative in CAD to figure out how to make dissimilar material assemblies assemblable but now with my 5t xl I just let it rip. But you still need to think (your video on the membrane keyboard was invaluable) about material compatibility and linking the mechanically. Doing medical simulation we wanted to make a knee joint base that we could “injure” for teaching purposes, and so we engineered the TPU to be mechanically captured inside the PLA (barbells). The prime tower kept waste to a minimum, and it turns out ligaments are a bit trickier than Tpu ropes but with clever shaping we got reasonable feel The model is hidden under fake soft tissue so nobody sees the ligaments look like crinkle fries. We haven’t tried adding other materials yet (maybe nylon 910 for the slippery joint surfaces?). The only trouble child has been bvoh (first didn’t print awesomely and then didn’t leave a good surface - hint, please do a video debugging that)
Nice! Yeah, something like the 5T XL really does remove many limitations. I just need more projects that require stuff like this, I have a hard time just prototyping without a purpose.
For pick and place, it would need to move a LOT faster and need many more heads. I'm a firm believer that pick and place machines will never make sense for small scale production. A laser could be interesting. But with an actual toolchanger, all these things are at least possible!
After assembling multiple small series of PCBs (10-20 each run with on average 20 components) I very much consider a pick and place machine. Being able to use my XL for the purpose would be a big plus (at reasonable cost)
An awesome explication of the two machines. I would add however (although you did touch on the subject) the XL might be worth considering if you produce a lot of colour prints.....due to the quick filament change it is much, much quicker than the Bambu (when printing multiple colour) and has very little waste
If the 256 mm is too small, just divide the object into 2 or more parts and assemble them later I just saw this morning a print for an elevating stand of the color changer of the x1, printed in 4 parts and assembled into one perfect item I think the file was on makerspace
Eh, you can't always break a part into multiple objects. I tend to never do this since I need solid parts, not just cosmetic representations. For cosmetic parts, it's certainly an option with some post-processing.
I stand by my original concerns on the prusa xl. I just don't see the value for 4k. They are currently the only tool changer printer this size, but other companies will take note and you can bet competition is paying attention. I like prusa. I want to like the xl. I just can't justify 4k for an open air printer with 3d printed parts that I have to assemble my self. Right now they have a monopoly on the market but you can be sure that other companies are paying attention and I wouldn't put it past bambu to outright steal the concept and make their own tool changer in the future.
Fully agree with your comments, two different machines, while i love my MK3s+, if they make a Bambu X1C Large Version (bed size similar to the XL in the next year) i'm all in
Kinda same! I'm not the biggest Bambu fan, but I'd be really curious to check out how they approach a larger format printer. I don't think many people realize that larger format comes with a whole bunch of additional issues.
@@RobertCowanDIY It will be interesting to see how Bambu approach building a larger model, having a larger build plate really does open up the possibilities of larger structural 3D printed designs, The XL is an amazing machine, but for a lot of people, its capability is more than they need. but Prusa support is also amazing, which deserves credit that is worth mentioning. look forwards to more content, the future looks exciting
@@brynsmith414 For sure, once Bambu figures how to do make a large format printer, things will get VERY interesting. It's what everyone wants them to make, but for some reason they decided to release bed slingers, the thing they said they'd never make? But the next 1-2 years will be really cool.
@@sanderpaulsen9375 the XL is cutting edge technology, it's not surprising there were a few problems in the early days....it's mostly sorted now. It doesn't change the conclusion of this video that in some specific cases the XL is the only game in town.
I had a deposit down for an XL from the day it was announced, however, I got so sick of all the delays I took the deposit back, Bambu lab X1and X1C were released but initially I did not buy one hoping that they had a competitor for the XL in the pipeline and I waited 14 months and as we know there was no commercial competitor to the XL and so I bought an X1C and AMS and it is an awesome machine but even though I have calibrated the purge amounts there is still more wasteage than I am happy with.
Sorry but I disagree about the single-tool XL not being a good choice. I understand there are other large volume printers available but unless you are wanting to go completely DIY with something like a Voron or RatRig, then your other options are not very good, at least in my opinion. With the Prusa XL, you get their first coreXY commercial design and the ability to upgrade to more tool heads. And you also get massive support for software and profiles, something the other companies just don't do very well.
@@RobertCowanDIY I think you have the Creality K1 Max, correct? How does that one compare to the Prusa XL? I mean, I know it's not the same build volume with the Prusa being much larger, but just as a single toolhead comparison.
@@hitf5 Yeah, I have a K1 Max. It's not even in the same league as the XL. Print quality is just OK, with a lot of surface finish issues and inconsistencies. I think an upgraded extruder and hotend could fix it, but I just haven't spent the time with it.
Honestly, I think another elephant in the room is Bambu's very sketchy intellectual property practices, both for the end user, and for the broader market.
Nice video, but there still seems to be some gray area even with the significant time spent on comparing the X1C and XL strengths. I need that XL multi-toolhead functionality (like the Ultimaker printers), but the bit at 4:10-4:25 suggests the XL is best if you get all 5 toolheads. What if you just need two and don't want to spend the $$? It sounds like the XL is not the recommendation in that case, but I don't hear any recommendation there. Do you have advice? I've had an Ultimaker 3 that worked pretty well, but it's basically dead now, and their replacement models are way more expensive these days. Thanks.
good to know, I like the multi-extrusion of both, speed of bamboo, but bed size of prusa, and it's tough to decide where I go to since I have a prusa mk3S+ right now
Logistically speaking the Prusa XL have way too much mechanical and consumable parts IMO. Like you said both have their advantage over the other. I should receive my Bambu X1-C in a few days :)
I use them equally, but they're different machines. The XL is built much more like a kit, the X1C seems more like a mass-produced commercial product. No judgements there, just my impression.
Hi Robert, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I know that technically Prusa XL can print ABS, but as it is not an enclosure printer, do you believe that the Prusa XL can print well in ABS?
@@hawtdayum It is now? The TOS of the Bamboo speak of the camera and so on being used by the manufacturer over the net. Same with the cloud stuff. This makes the use of the Bamboo machines impossible for companies that develop their own stuff. For rapid prototyping and so on the 1C would be ideal. To have it just exist as a normal printer over the network would be idea. Why I'm talking about this is because I was a service and product designer in a startup 3D software and printing company. Would have loved something like X1C back then.
@@jaanikaapa6925 Please reread what I wrote.. Offline means *no connection to anything* . SD card only. why are you talking about cameras, TOS or anything else? This isnt magic or imaginary tech. Offline means offline. Printer works fine. If you are moving the goal post to *Lan only* then again all traffic stays within network or you can run vlan, disconnected(from the net) networks and a with a work station. Or pay the IT tax of am X1E(2500) with ethernet and hardware kill switches. So for example I was at a trade fair, brought a travel router with no internet access, (it just makes a local wifi network) X1C, laptop and was able to show off my prints and the machine in lan only mode with zero internet traffic. So all printer controls, worked including camera was completely contained with zero packets sent online/cloud. So for your example it would work perfectly. Look "Break free from Bambu Cloud but retain most features" So not to flog a deceased horse...*cloud is optional* I have a kick starter X1C since aug 2022 and offline has always been an option. and lan only has gotten more features over time. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not being honest with you and you should question them.
I'm not at all sure what they will come out with next, it seems like they're not at all paying attention to what people are asking for, they're just flooding the market.
@@RobertCowanDIY Yeah sure we don’t know but the next one will be something new and not a X1CXL i.e.. If they put something in between we also don’t know. They did a good job for a newcomer so long.
Very helpful video. I was wondering if there were any issues with nozzle clogging when switching materials from high-temp to a low-temp material on the X1, since it has a single toolhead. Have you done any deep dives into multi-material prints?
I don't do multi-material printing on the X1C, just due to the waste and extra time. And it's really just for cosmetic purposes, which I'm not super into.
Trying to buy a 3d printer for the 1st time and I am confused. You stated that the Bambu lab x1c has to manually change the material to print multiple materials/colors, but on their website the AMS automatically changes material/color. Is the AMS new to the date of this video posting or am I misunderstanding what AMS actually does?
The AMS changes the filament automaticly. However, this does not work on flexible materials like TPU. Also no abrasive material (as they can damage the AMS - you can surpass the AMS and print them manualy of course). As the filament is changed by cutting the ol inside the extruder and poo it out while loading the next filament, you should not combine filaments with significant different printing temperatures (PLA and PETG are near enough). With the XL you have one toolhead for each filament. So it is not swapped and you can use different materials (not only different colours) and also abrasives (using an ObXedian nozzle in that toolhead of course) and TPU. Also the XL support different nozzle sizes in one print (newest developer version of Orca Slicer, no official release yet). So, while you can use both for multi colour, toolchangers are a whole new world if it comes to multi material.
Allthough im deciding beetween the X1C and the XL for my first printer, I would want the printer with the BEST print quality in term of overhangs and smooth prints. While ease of use is certainly nice to have, I can work with whats in front of me and the touchscreen and stuff isnt that important to me. I think the only exclusive benefit of the X1 for me is that it has its own profile for the PLA Aero that bambulab makes, which i intend to use for model aircraft and other rc projects. I also intend to print accurately working gears, ssmall mechanisms etc. Would you say the print quality is generally the same? If that is so, i will probably just get an X1C, but if the XL is a lot better at printing and produces better results more consistently then i would want to get the XL. The multi toolheads are something that im not too sure I will need, but are certainly something I would rather have and not need than need and not have. Edit: While print volume is not really a factor for me and multi material prints arent too likely since I am only making functional prints and not really anything cosmetic, I would like to not have to spend so much time tinkering with aprinter. Ive heard so many ender 3 horror stories. I dont mind minor tweaks done every now and then, but heavy maintenance is something i cant do
If it comes to overhangs, an XL 2-toolhead might be the better option. The best quality for overhangs you get using a supportmaterial wich is easy to detach. While you can use PLA support interface layers on a PETG print and vice versa on a bamulab AMS, the printing time and waste can explode like crazy if the interface layers are not horizontal in only a few layers. With 2 toolheads you can use different material for support much faster and with less waste.
Hey man great vid, new sub. What if I am printing multiple colors often? The cost of wasted filament wouldn’t take long to match the difference in price between machines. Right?
One small problem with the X1 Carbon. Bambu's customer support is horrible and they will make it a hassle to get your machine repaired or returned. Prusa's customer support is 24/7 and is excellent. Bambu is garbage. Period.
I made a longer comment which got lost to youtube error, but I think this is a reasonable take. I also think that the current solution isnt even close to what I think will really break this multi material wide open. I think Bambulab with the A1 Mini's toolhead, seems to basically be planning out sort of what I envision to be a much cheaper, and just as effective system where instead of changing the whole tool end, you just change the hotend, because ultimately, the thing that takes time is getting the nozzle ready, so all you really want to do is switch the hotend to one that is already primed (so to speak, not primed as in the 3d printing term) for that filament. A system like that would allow for way more filaments on one machine and reduce the cost and complexity tremendously. Basically something like what MihaiDesigns is working on, I think is clearly the future of multi material. No doubt for now, Prusa is the only game in town, but I don't think its end game, and instead only the beginning. Edit: I also had the thought though, that for a maker who doesn't already have a CNC mill, they could actually be set with a Carvera tool changing CNC machine and a P1S for the cost of one Prusa XL, so that further limits the ideal customer. Just an addon thought.
@@pinecone606 Not at all. One requires electronics to be connected and or dragged around, whereas the other is far more space efficientz would have no electronics on it and therefore would be significantly cheaper per tool.
3:40 do i see that correctly that you are most likely building filament storage drawers? im planning to build something like this as well, any learnings you can share with us already regarding this design?
I've been teasing this in the past few videos. You are right, it's a modular filament storage drawer system. Hopefully I'll be able to show it off in the next video or so. I'm almost done with it, I just need to put on some finishing touches. It will be shared on printables for free. Make sure you follow all my videos for more information ;-)
I’m sure a lot of people have been asking and I agree with your take, but I’m so tired of seeing these 2 printers compared… most often by people who just want to bash on Prusa for some reason. They are completely different machines with completely different “philosophies of use”.
Neither printer has what I'm looking for. 350x350+, CoreXY, Klipper, MMU, enclosed, failure detection, and doesn't require the hobby to be 3D printer tinkering constantly, but actually 3D printing parts.
The A1 was recalled and not really comparable here. How is the recalled printer better than the P1P? I was mostly addressing actual requests to compare the X1C to the XL.
I'm quite interested in the printer, although I'm not sure any of the features really mean much for actually printing 'better', it will just be a bit faster and much quieter.
@@RobertCowanDIY The developer told the 3D Printing Nerd during the interview that the positioning accuracy of the linear motors used is 0.003 mm. I think there should be improvements in print quality despite high speeds, and on the other hand, with a 0.2 mm nozzle you should be able to penetrate the detail range of the resin printers while at the same time selecting any materials for functional applications
@@christiantoth7959 Huh, interesting. I'd be curious to see if positional accuracy is the issue with getting more detailed prints with FDM, I always assumed it was just the nature of the material.
@@llkurofoxll1013 I'm not so sure I agree with that statment. If you're going by what you see in social media, it's heavily skewed towards companies that play the affiliate game.
You could save a ton of money by getting the X1C over the OVERPRICED Prusa XL. Hell just base to base the X1 beats it in price, and full versions....a 5 head Prusa XL is stupid expensive price. You could get the X1C WITH 3 extra AMS's (for 16 color printing) and STILL be cheaper then the XL.....oh and one is Enclosed the other....isn't. As for large printers....a Voron 2.4 350 LDO kit is cheaper, still. Note: There is a color changing system for Voron printers that can be built up to 18 colors in size. As typical Voron design you build it how you want, and the kits for like a 6 color one are very cheap. The main problem with Prusa is they are overpriced for their volume, or anything else they do, there is always something out there that is cheaper.
You should MAYBE watch the actual video. 'color changing' is not why toolheads exist. The AMS does that well (although with a lot of waste). But toolheads allow you to print dissimilar materials together with very little time between toolhead swaps. They are different tools. Watch the video, this is all covered.
@@RobertCowanDIY Thing is there isn't anything the XL does that the X1C doesn't do as well. Even when printing different materials at the same time, the AMS can do that too as long as you have a hardened steel nozzle to handle the more abrasive stuff. The main issue with anything from Prusa is PRICE and the fact they are OVERpriced for their build volumes. Even the VORON 2.4 350 kit from LDO, is the more expensive version of a Voron kit, is still WAY under the cost of a Prusa XL. The Voron is same build volume (10mm difference), and ENCLOSED already. If you want multi material, a kit for about 200 bucks can set you up with 6 colors. You can build the ERCF to up to 18 colors or whatever you feel like building as long as you can find the parts to make it happen. All together a Voron 2.4 350 LDO kit with an Enraged Rabbit Carrot Feeder 6 color is LESS ($1700) then a Prusa XL solo toolhead ($2000). Being "super reliable" printers can only get you so far but when your prices are 50% or more then the competition and you don't do anything different then them, then what is your purpose? Everything that competes against the Prusa XL is already cheaper by a good 500 bucks AND already has an enclosure.
@@SirLANsalot You should REALLY watch the actual video, all this is covered. If you can print TPU alongside a higher temperature filament and not take forever due to numerous slow filament swaps, please start a channel and show how you're doing it.
@@SirLANsalotI'm sorry dude but you are beyond delusional to think any Bambu printer can do multi material better than a toolchanger. You're just a Bambu fanboi.
The XL is a bit of a letdown and overpriced, but as the video says, comparing them is pointless Compare the xl to a voron 350 with tapchanger or whatever, gets a bit closer to the price, is multi head and similarly sized
I don't understand the statement that a X1C can't do multimaterial - if remove TPU as the AMS can't push that through - what is to stop you from printing multi- material? I print multi-material all the time
I thought I was fairly clear, TPU and abrasives aren't meant for the AMS. People HAVE used abrasives, but over time they will create issues. I'm considering that 'multi-material', since printing PETG alongside PLA is fine, but not really all that compelling for me at least. I want dissimilar materials.
He has a very niche use case. You have to nearly design parts to utilize it otherwise most common parts are either single filament type or assembled. There are mods to print TPU with the AMS but like everything YMMV. There is a special TPU called STTPU by DUDV2 which prints like PLA and softens like TPU. Hardness 80D when printed (Dry) and 65A when soft. it can be submerged in water to speed up the flexibility through absorption. Folks have had good success in the AMS with this.
@@RobertCowanDIY - Yeah.. I'm just going on my own experience - TPU agree - abrasives - 7 spools of Glow-ITD, and 3 spool (one partial spool they give you as a sample) of PLA-CF with no problems. I guess I didn't read the manual - wasn't aware it was not recommended - maybe I have not hit the level of power user yet...
There are two aspects of multimaterial that the XL does a lot better, and what he was alluding to: 1) multimaterial with tpu. Tpu on the bambu is a no go for the AMS. 2) multimaterial with very different temperature materials. On the bambu, you can't really do polycarbonate with say pla (ask me how I know!), you will get jams from the extruder melting the pla too early when switching. XL is great for this.
@@Tom--Ace Multi material isn't exactly the holy grail of printing for the XL. @YGK3D tested 12 different models and the ones mixed with TPU, printed but you wouldn't consider them successes as the models broke with my minor use. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around why someone would use the superior polycarbonate mixed with relatively inferior pla. So my question isn't could you do it, it's more why would you do it?
I haven't had any firmware issues with mine after maybe the first week of owning it. I think if you bought one today, there wouldn't be any hiccups once it arrives. Name one modern printer that hasn't had ANY firmware updates since it was launched...
Choosing between a $1,000 printer and a $4,000 printer (before tax and shipping so more like 5) that you then have to spend a day assembling. Look, the prusa XL is cool and all, but it's not remotely the same type of device as an x1c. And you can buy 4 of them for the cost of 1 XL.
@@RobertCowanDIY Agree, but that is two separate types of consumers. To me it is like video cards, once the Bitcoin miners got involved I stopped building PCs and moved to gaming consoles.
The real elephant in the room is security of your files. with bambu they get access to your mdf files and gcode, the cameras and alot of ther information with prusa they dont get access unless you provided them
I'm not a big defender of Bambu, but when their firmware was cracked, they found no real issues. It's largely a rumor that they're somehow stealing private information.
I don't have any personal experience with them, but I've heard good things about the Sovol stuff. It's around 300x300 and I think they have a bigger one too. I've also had decent luck with the Creality bed-slingers, as long as you understand the limitations (relatively slow, not enclosed, might need to get an all-metal hot-end for higher temp stuff).
You might take a look at the Rat Rig. I have two and they work well. You have to build them, and determine what hot end and extruder to use, but they have a standard. My 500mm cube can print almost anything. That size will be about $2K
I’ve had a Raise3D Pro3 for several years. It’s 300x300x300, fully enclosed, and prints any material I throw it at flawlessly. But it’s also quite a bit more expensive than the Prusa XL
Prusa has been kicking this can down the roads for years and only got off their ass to actually deliver to customers once bambu started destroying them the past two years. Prusa likes to sit on consumers money and count it while delivering years later.
Eh, a toolchanger is much harder than the AMS. I don't see that as 'kicking the can down the road'. It's a FAR more complicated mechanism to get right and it does work as advertised. It's just a different product that most people don't actually need.
I understand that, but if AMS and accuracy was so easy why couldn't prusa get the MMU right a long time ago? Likes I said they've been upcharging for a long time without any real tech leaps for users.
Someone seems to have forgotten that until very recently, Prusa were they innovators when it came to consumer 3D printers. Rather than kicking the can, they were maybe caught napping.
@cj5376 Prusa was at the top before Bambu came along, they had MMU before Bambu even came on the scene. Bambu just had speedier and cheaper printers. It's funny that people like you act like Prusa never did anything good.
Huh? You say you would only buy an XL if you have need for 5 tool heads for exotic-multi-material printing. I say you don't just buy the XL just for using different types of materials. (even though I do use multi-materials). Just printing TWO different COLORS (or the same material) on an XL , the XL will print 10X faster than a Bambu! And you don't need exotic multi materials to be useful, Have you tried using a different materials for supports? XL users are having amazing results using PLA for supports with PETG prints. They don't stick at all to the PETG and they are trivial to remove. Furthermore, as a large format printer, the XL has much better features than most other large format printers (eg a Voron) like automatic bed leveling, multi-heating zone on the print bed. The XL is a great value with just two print heads.
I think folks that are comparing multicolor/filament prints of a bambulab vs XL are not looking at the actual advantages of a bambu printer. Let's get the basics out of the way *XL has the wins on general size* The bambu printers have the edge on single color prints speed and quality but you arent limited to 4 colors as you can go up to 16. That is filament redundancy, filament drybox, that is not touching filament for 4-16kg. When it comes to hardened nozzles, enclosure, printing exotic materials, camera, and a host of other features on the BL printers. XL only has the size and some niche multifilament situations. Did you know you can print a model all in one filament and just have a single layer of petg/pla be the interface? this drastically speeds up the print time. I have seen folks print layer by layer with support and they are just wasting filament and time. But the elephant in the room is the XL price and availability. the 2x print head is 2500-3000 before shipping and you wont see it until the later half of 2024 You can get 2-6 P1S/X1C /P1Ps and get in less than a week. Before the A1 recall that would have been almost 7 printers vs a single XL 5 head. Imagine how many prints you can get in 6 months vs waiting for prusa to get your order sent. Then you are in for a full or partial printer build vs a machine that is ready out of the box. If you are printing in a print farm like situation there is no calculation that will push out more parts on a single 2500-3000 (2head) XL vs a 3 p1s. The pricing gets more stark when you look at the 5 head printer. A single XL may beat out a single Bambu printer in high multicolor changes but will not beat 2-6 of them printing in volume.
Id love an XL, but not at that price. I have an e3d tool changer and its decent enough but my god did it require some tinkering and improvements to the machine. The X1C is awesome, and its spawned awesome improvements to slicers (OrcaSlicer). Ive added a few things the X1C does well to my e3d tool changer such as the purge bucket and nozzle cleaning. But the XL I kinda feel is being held back by Prusa's firmware and actually even the slicer. And it just costs so damn much compared to literally anything else. Sure the XL can print different materials but look how bad the print quality is given the cost of the machine.
@@kronosaurelius The "waste" issue is the biggest non issue when you actually factor out how much "waste" is at issue. Each filament change is about .3-.7 grams. There is a very simple tweak found on butter pocket prints netting an additional 30-50% reduction. But It would take hundreds of thousands to millions of filament swaps in waste to match the break even cost of X1C/p1S vs an XL. This is years of printing, and 10s of thousands of hours before a single squirt of filament is extruded on an XL in price difference. I am stealing this line from someone else. Folks who are comparing X1C vs XL and using waste as an excuse is *stepping over dollars to pick up pennies* .
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Having both is pretty nice. I use my X1C to prototype quickly and then print the final parts on the XL. That works for me at least.
Excellent Video. One of the deciders for me was the waste of multi-material printing. The difference is night and day! Having both here, the Bambu hasn't been switched on since the XL 5TH arrived. My progression has been through IDEX and printing a lot of two colour stuff, or complex prints with dissolvable supports. My Z height was my main limit that annoyed me, with my FF Inventor being 160mm, and my Creator 3 being 200mm. My AD4 gave me 250mm but as I love making Rocket models I had a serious hankering for the bigger Z Height. As both printers were announced about the same time, we were faced with a quandary of what to get. Son suggested he get one, and I get the other. So he went with the Bambu as I was the one wanting a bigger build area. So the Bambu arrived a while back and did some very fancy stuff. But the cut and rewind of the Bambu system isn't perfect. I'm in a hotter climate and I find that if the filament gets soft due to ambient temperature, then instead of a clean cut it can form a small "ball" which rapidly cools as it's being retracted, and often jams in the extruder, not being able to go out the feed hole. This has seriously driven me nuts as on several builds it's jammed, and to save the build I've had to dismantle the extruder (machine live to not lose the build) to clear the little bulge. As often as 4 occasions on a single build. That and the poop pile has meant it's retired to backup only styatus now.
You would need to eat hundreds of thousands to millions of filament swaps to match the price difference of the X1C to XL. $1450-$3500-$4000 The waste doesn't become a true factor unless you have done years worth of printing at a minimum. Each filament swap at default is about .3g to .7g. This is the first I have heard of the filament being a "ball" during retraction. The printer cuts the filament above the melt zone and retracts. How is it still molten unless you run in an environment that is above 60C or 170-180F. Under your circumstances the filament should be soft in the ptfe tubes during extrusions too. *source I have an X1C with 10s of thousands swaps and retractions and 5k hours printed.
It's not just about price. Sometimes it's about adding significantly more plastic into the landfill. It's really wasteful to just purge that much material with no way to recover, recycle, or otherwise reclaim it.
Going to have to disagree on many points. If you want to avoid contributing plastic to a landfill why get into fdm printing at all? 1. Based on your uploads you cannot say you never had a failed print on the XL. Do you toss it or repurpose it? 2. The moment you decided to print with an FDM printer is the moment you decided plastic will end up in a landfill it's a fact of using them. 3. There are projects to reuse spent filament. A simple one is melt the plastic into a silicone molds(Uncle Jesse,1yr ago) CNC kitchen showed off 3devo(NOV2023) to repurpose filament but there are others. 4. You can design your models to reduce if not eliminate waste. There is little reason for filament change every layer if your parts don't need it. 5. But you should know there are filament recyclers such as printeriordesigns, terracycle stateside. It's hard to justify a $4000 purchase to save a few cents in filament and you may *never see the break even price during the life of the printer*. *My math is sound*. It would take years and hundreds of thousands to millions of color swaps before the XL even gets started to match the price spent and this is before you do butter pocket prints 50% additional yield purge reduction, the waste argument is not the biggest strength for the XL at that price.
You could potentially make the argument for the swap speed or size or if you get the right combination of compatible filaments which so far has been a mix of occasional success but mostly fails based on what is shown on YT.
I stole this from another commenter. "you are stepping over dollars to pick up pennies".
@@RobertCowanDIY It's not just the reduction of waste alone. Although the Bambu can print faster, it's way slower on every colour change, negating it's advantage. So I get both a productivity AND a cost (waste reduction) advantage. Add to that a much larger build size as well. I can make Cosplay parts up to 360 x 360 x 360mm Vs 220mm for the Bambu. So less joins which are possible weak points for print failure.
@@theaussieviking8555 If you are printing cosplay parts that's even less reason to get an XL. This can all be done on a single color printer and prepared later. Unless you want visible layer lines, layer seam, support pock marks. Prints coming off a printer, even with multicolor will never look as good as proper post processing. Rarely will someone print a cosplay part and not have any post processing, Sanding, priming, painting, gloss, electroplating... You can get a 400cubed printer around $500. saving $3500.
*Support* I find the support argument an odd one. If the printer is unreliable you need good support If the printer is reliable good support is hardly needed. I wonder where prusa XL falls as a bunch of folks are having issues with their XL. 1yr warranty on both (in the states) *replacement parts* All parts are inexpensive and available online for Bambu ,Full hardened hotend(heater, fan, thermistor is $35 otherwise nozzle is $15) shipping is fast and free over $50 Some parts are not available for the XL and are pricy. Nextruder brass nozzle is $50, hardened nozzle only is $60 Shippng is around $20+ Multiply all XL parts by 5 for the 5 head as they only ship brass initially. Both have forums, communities, wiki and youtube channels for repairs. Bambu gives you maintenance reminders for cleaning, greasing, including wiki links *Software/firmware* Bl had many updates and meaningful firmware updates since Aug 2022. Silent motors, camera, filters, remote controls and monitoring, object exclusion, Auto filament calibrations, print fail detection, first layer detection and the ability to print without touching a slicer program BL studio and it's fork Orca is arguably some of the best fdm slicers available. Prusa slicer is well seasoned and profiles have been good for prusa printers. Prusa some firmware is sitll considered beta and requires tweaking and tuning *For beginners* BL the printer is assembled and read to go in minutes, expect delivery within a week The Prusa needs assembly even with the semi assembled version. Expect delivery in the later half of 2024 Longevity I am a kickstarter user(Aug 2022) of a X1C and have over 5k hours and counting. Only ever replaced normal wear parts.(nozzle, ptfe tubes) Prusa XL hasnt been out as long so time will tell.
Eh, they're both pretty good. Longevity is something that is questioned with Bambu, but the XL is a completely new product with an unknown track record.
@@tyler785I don't normally defend Bambu, but you have to look at their user-base. They got a LOT of new people into 3d printing, so the data might be a bit skewed since their users might tend to be less proficient. But in general, I'd agree. Prusa has better support and some of the best in the industry.
you get you money back in filament cause the bambu poops most of your filament out the back as waste go big or go home if you dont need to print more then 5 mats
Oh, it's not THAT bad. The amount of filament it wastes is not necessarily a big cost, it's just wasteful and takes time. UNLESS you're using really expensive filament.
I would probably hold off until you have the budget for it. Something else might come along, the price might go down, etc. My general rule of thumb is to buy a tool when I'm ready for it instead of buying the tool anticipating the need.
@@RobertCowanDIY I have the need for a single tool head printer, so I was originally looking at the k1 max for the size, and it seems a little more open source so I can use lychee, where x1c is pretty closed still. I haven't checked your channel yet for a k1 max review, I was going to look at that today.
@@brandonb417Eh, I'll be honest, the K1 Max isn't getting used all that much. I ran into some issues with bed leveling at high temps (for ASA), and the print quality for PLA is just kinda 'meh'. It's OK, but not in the same league as the Bambu or XL.
@@RobertCowanDIY That's good to know. So if I'm looking for a good core xy around the 300 cubed size what would you recommend? Is the x1c really that good or are they just driving a really good hype train?
@@brandonb417I'm not really aware of any corexy printers around that size other than building a voron. I'll see if I can find something, I think we just have to wait for bambu to come out with something. the x1c is good, but not quite as good as everyone would make you believe. it's fast, but if you want good solid prints, you might want to slow it down quite a bit. but it's a great prototyping printer for me.
I think Prusa has been a great company but they've gone mad with that asking price lol. Especially since Ive seen issues with the head swap mechanism, which is one of two reasons why Id even consider it. Personally I think they should be around $3k but I think they have a difference in revenue to make up since Bambu came to market.
I don't see it that way at all. It's just a much more complicated and expensive machine to make. It's arguable if it NEEDS to be like that, but looking at the machine in person, I can see where money went into it.
Prusa make their Printer in the EU, not in china. They use quality material, like THK linear rail bearings, IFM sensors etc. they make their PCB in house with good QC. I have nothing agains Bambu, work well, but at the end it is no in the same league, Chienesium VS Quality parts, China cheap labour VS CZ EU job. It is not manufactured the same way, maybe to expensive for some polarized people. I like any 3d Printers, they all have their up and down.
@@RobertCowanDIY I agree, mine was the kit version. I was and still am impressed with the quality of the parts and how it is built. I have had problems and Prusa support has been great. Still learning how to make it work, but have had some great prints
Before watching, I would opt for the Prusa XL given the choice. While I do not like Prusa products in general (just my personal taste), I think from what I know the Prusa XL is a platform while the Bambu's are rather limited systems that are not meant for mods, expansion etc.. The Prusa looks like a relatively flexible platform, mechanically and software vise.
True. I'm curious to see how Bambu responds to the bigtreetech LCD screen. They seems to be making it problematic through firmware rather than providing a path for people to make upgrades/mods.
@@RobertCowanDIY I meant to emphasize that I am not simply regurgitate @RobertCowanDIY video, but rather give my on opinion based on about 20 years of 3D printing exposure. Bambu while a great plug-n-play tool, is more like an old StrataSys printer, closed and walled-in.
Name one FDM 3D printer other than Prusa XL that has more than 2 tool heads, has more than 300x300x300mm build volume and is not made in CHINA, that costs less than 5k EUR. Not everyone needs such machine, but it's still a great value.
You'll find no argument here. I agree with you, but many people feel that the AMS is a tool changer. It's just a filament swapper and IMO a much inferior method.
Supply chain is hard. Bambu has shown it's much more agile in the manufacturing space for sure, but MANY companies have had to re-evaluate their supply chain practices in the past few years. Prusa is not alone in this.
EU quality? The XL forums, reddit, YT, discord are littered with QA issues. Prusa even walked back shipping the 0.6m nozzles for the .4mm due to the print quality issues. Also they are still shipping with brass nozzles so abrasives will chew up the nozzle. It's $50 per toolhead to go hardened with the ObXidian Then there are the beta firmware glitches and bugs this is hardly the best that the EU has shown.
It might be a good idea to watch the video. It's a question I get all the time and I agree, they are completely different printers. That's what the video is about.
A neutral, non fanboy video. Such a relief. Thank you for spelling out what should have been obvious for everyone since day 1.
Great video and thanks Robert. Really informative video. What Prusa should really include with the XL is an enclosure with heated chamber and HEPA filter - that will complete the package. XL as it is today, cannot print ABS / PC / ASA / PA6 / PA12 or any new materials that requires enclosure, which severely impact the usability for those who actually need the size & versatility with their use.
Yeah, agreed. That being said, I just finished printing 5 full rolls of ASA on it...
Do you use any technique to print that material or do you have an enclosure built by yourself?
@@Ronoaldo Check my channel, I'm basically using a shower curtain as a make-shift enclosure. It works well.
AWESOME video, thank you so much for the video, this answers my question I asked on your previous video, I really appreciated you taking the time to make this video. Perfect analogy was used.
Great to hear!
I have x1c but will also get this pursa xl after its been out longer.
I have been an early adopter once and never again.
Usually being an early adopter with an established brand isn't a gamble, but the 3d printing market is moving so far, companies are being forced to move too quickly. I'd agree with your assessment, towards the end of the year I expect the XL to be a really powerful machine. From what I can see, the hardware is good (aside from the networking implementation). So hopefully it will all be software tuning.
X1C sounds appealing but XL sounds great. The only thing is the waste with the X1C. But also watching the XL enclosure video plus no way to watch the prints while you are at work. That’s another trade off.
I was literally asking myself this question today.
I have the XL 2T, and for functional prints I would buy it again (instead of the 5 head). Sure, a third toolhead would unlock a couple use cases, but two heads have accomplished all my needs for now. Prusa also offers upgrade kits now, so there's that. Single head XL is the one config I don't recommend. Edit: Almost forgot about the missing enclosure. That's something that I will absolutely acquire for the XL at some point. Either from Prusa (when they release it) or one of the various third party projects.
if two toolheads is all you got, why not save the money and go with an idex printer? Like the snapmaker j1s
@@jishani1I still have the option to upgrade if I have the need. TBH three tools would be optimal for me, but unfortunately Prusa only offers an upgrade to 5TH. Also, Prusa's long term support of their printers makes a big difference for me.
Now if one company or another offers multiple heads with color changing systems (like the AMS) then that would be a great hybrid. The other consideration with the X1C is not being limited to just the 5 colors. You can effectively set up to 20 different colors without having to really think about it.
Another thing to consider is you can buy 4 x1cs for the price of the 5 headed XL. and then you can daisy chain all the ams units if you desire.
Very nice video with a clear explanation of the thought process, it somehow is super hard to find some actual content like this on 3d printers these days since there are so many shills and it's pretty difficult to tell "reviews" or "comparisons" from "advertisements", at least with your channel I know I get some honest opinions instead of trying to sell me a printer with a promo code where the content creator receives a kickback.
For the choice between a Prusa XL and a Bambu X1C the proposition is quite clear: do you just want an allround printer that works out of the box without too much fiddling (the Bambu, but you waste quite a bit of filament doing multi-material printing since there is only 1 toolhead that needs to be purged), or do you need a bigger work area with multiple toolheads so you can print more efficiently for projects that require these extras (the Prusa), but it gets really hard to tell the differences when there aren't any stand-out features of the printers.
I'd be interested in a similar video but on comparable 3d printers, like comparing a Bambu X1C to a Prusa Mk4 with enclosure: they are about the same price, offer about the same functionality and it's really hard to find the exact differences and advantages/disadvantages between them aside from the Bambu being a CoreXY and the Prusa a bedslinger. For example the Bambu has CF rods in the gantry that are marked as wear items, but how many hours printing is to be expected before these need to be replaced? How open is the firmware on both these machines (especially the telemetry and weird language in the EULA leave me worried)?
Finally a video that hits the mark on why someone would choose the XL,, combining different materials in the same print. Someone making colored dragons is completely different than someone like me, needing to make complex silicone molding systems that use soluble supports to create void spaces in the final product. Great video which is helping me lean toward the XL.
Thanks for the video exactly what I am looking for!
Glad it was helpful!
Why is prusa not available in Asia Pacific? Willing to pay for this XL but it's not available unless shipped thru 3 third party BS.
The Xl is a very very niche device for my needs. None of my parts use dissimilar filament. I am hard pressed to fine a reason to mix PC/ABS or nylon with lesser filaments types(pla/petg etc)
The waste argument is kinda moot in my world. The price difference cannot be ignored.
2500 worth of waste filament is a huge amount to justify the XL
Just thinking about the math, a color swap is about .3-.7grams, before swap tweaks to get 30-50% additional yield
I buy filament in bulk and that is about 200 -250rolls for $2500
I would need hundreds of thousands to several million filament swaps to just match the price of the XL before it prints a single gram of filament.
That would could be years worth or printing before the waste is an issue.
Also it's only waste if you deem it waste. There are several ways to reuse it.
So you are correct size can be done with many other types of single head printers, and large multi filament prints it's main use case. 3500-4k is a hard sell.
This is pretty much exactly what I covered in the video. You don't have a need for it, so it's a terrible value for you. If you absolutely NEEDED those capabilities, it would be a matter of figuring how much money you'd be willing to give up to have those capabilities. Obviously the cost of filament will never offset those costs. BUT, time is money. If you could print out 2-3 faster due to a lot of filament changes, it might mean more parts in a day and more profit.
@@RobertCowanDIY Fair enough, I think you were spot on for use the tool that makes sense for the project. I just am personally hard pressed to find many uses for the XL.
With the initial cost met, I am limited to non abrasive basic filaments. Those brass nozzles will get chewed up with abrasive filament. Printing [toxic] filament without proper enclosure, ventilation, or filtration is a non starter.
A proper enclosure kit $??? and Obxidian hardened nozzles ($50x5) is additional salt on the financial wound.
I have been following your channel for a while and forgive me if I am reaching with this statement but, you seem to be hard pressed in printing actual multifilament parts. The TPU/pla part was one, and multicolor marlin toy print was another.
Some filaments do not bond well together and mixing filament with wildly different characteristics dont seem to work well according to my youtube searches. So while the printer is capable of multifilament printing it has very limited uses for what it is sold as.
So if the XL is claiming the speed crown with multi color prints but in terms of overall volume $3500-4000 is 2-4 multicolor capable printers which on the whole would be faster than a single XL especially if you have to factor in hardened nozzles, enclosure...
Those 2-4 machines would produce more than a single machine meaning more profit, less downtime.
@@RobertCowanDIY Yes, time is priceless. Many changes of materials make the print endless, on a bambu´s AMS.
I own both printers, and have been a prusa customer for years. When I got the Bambu I was very impressed with the ease of use and slick design, but when I had to reach out to their support I was surprised how hard it was to get a response. Prusa is top notch in terms of customer support and troubleshooting, which is also something to consider IMO.
Correct. I can't really comment on that since I haven't had to reach out to support on either, so I didn't include that as a data point. But others have mentioned this as well.
I think Prusa printers are quite overpriced for what the are. With the cost of a Prusa XL I could buy almost 3 Bambu X1C printers. I remeber how the mk2 still used those ugly and expensive tread rods with giant bolts yet it was as expensive as many higher end printers.
Having experience with both I agree with the Sedan vs Pickup comparison for average users. I would like to add that for serious multiple material printing the Prusa XL5 puts the Bambu X1C in the rear view mirror. It is incredibly freeing to pretty much ignore the number of tool changes. The difference is a lot more than just size and capability. I feel the XL is one of the best purchases I've ever made. You get what you pay for.
I have about 3000hrs on my X1c and just ordered a 5 head Prusa XL. The X1C has been great, especially for the money. I have been getting more into multi color and multi material prints and while the AMS does a good job it is definitely slow and generates a ton of waste. Often it ends up wasting more material than it actually uses on prints with a lot of swaps. Also the increased size of the XL will be nice. I will likely keep my X1C for engineering materials since the prusa is not enclosed though
Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. They're just different machines and I use mine very differently. And strangely enough, sometimes I'm just in different moods and 'feel' like using one over the other.
Hi Robert, what printer of the similar printing volume would you have in mind if one does not need the tool changer? Bambu is a bit small for us. We have Raise 3D Pro3 but it is really glitchy...
XL 3.999 + tax and shipping…. Just buy 3x P1P wtih AMS and take leftover money and go dinner with wife and give her the rest of the money… life will be Amazing after that.
Unless you have a business use-case for it, then the XL might be able to generate income...
I had an XL on backorder for 2 YEARS. I attempted to finalize the order and tried to include some filament with the order because of the high cost of shipping Prusa supplies to the US. The Prusa rep said no can do despite it's in their web page that you can do it (I double checked). My wife has 2 Prusa Mk3S+ printers and bought a Bambu. She doesn't use the Prusas now. Every contact with Prusa has ended in frustration. I decided to cancel my XL order and will buy a Bambu instead. It's a thousand dollars less than a Prusa with 2 tool heads ands its only advantage is a slightly larger build volume, offset by fewer tool heads, but the primary reason is we are just fed up with Prusa. In my opinion, they have a chip on their shoulder.
I know this may not be the best place to discuss this, but I have a Mk3s+ and my biggest gripe is how long things take to print. Since I hate to leave any printer unattended, this is removing all the fun of designing any meaningful stuff. So can I kindly ask, was the Bambu a game changer in this respect or is it just hype? And would I be locked into their filament? Finally can I still slice and print locally without being dependant on the web? Thanks
@@johnfiott My wife says the Bambu is significantly faster than the Mk3s +, but I don't know if that makes it significantly faster than the Mk 4. She bought the Bambu because she was frustrated with the Mk 3. I upgraded the 3 to the 4 and I'm pretty satisfied with it. She tells me the Bambu is a speed demon and it has different speed options. The Bambu can use any filament. She prefers the Bambu slicer over the Prusa's (but she hasn't used v6).
I got frustrated with the Mk 4 speed and print volume so I ended up re-placing an order for an XL, delivery time 6 weeks.
Suggest you watch the RUclips videos comparing the Bambu to the Mk 4. There are lots by experienced users of both printers. Good luck.
Thank you, much appreciated. I was not aware that the XL is faster than the Mk 4, so maybe I will also consider that, although as a purely hobbyist use case I am pushing it a bit where it comes to budget, given that I am not expecting to make any money from this.
The pickup vs sedan is a great analogy. I’d used single head printers for years, but was more creative in CAD to figure out how to make dissimilar material assemblies assemblable but now with my 5t xl I just let it rip. But you still need to think (your video on the membrane keyboard was invaluable) about material compatibility and linking the mechanically. Doing medical simulation we wanted to make a knee joint base that we could “injure” for teaching purposes, and so we engineered the TPU to be mechanically captured inside the PLA (barbells). The prime tower kept waste to a minimum, and it turns out ligaments are a bit trickier than Tpu ropes but with clever shaping we got reasonable feel The model is hidden under fake soft tissue so nobody sees the ligaments look like crinkle fries. We haven’t tried adding other materials yet (maybe nylon 910 for the slippery joint surfaces?). The only trouble child has been bvoh (first didn’t print awesomely and then didn’t leave a good surface - hint, please do a video debugging that)
Nice! Yeah, something like the 5T XL really does remove many limitations. I just need more projects that require stuff like this, I have a hard time just prototyping without a purpose.
Imagine the day you get a pick and place tool head, or laser module for the XL.
For pick and place, it would need to move a LOT faster and need many more heads. I'm a firm believer that pick and place machines will never make sense for small scale production. A laser could be interesting. But with an actual toolchanger, all these things are at least possible!
After assembling multiple small series of PCBs (10-20 each run with on average 20 components) I very much consider a pick and place machine. Being able to use my XL for the purpose would be a big plus (at reasonable cost)
@@jackersing I havent thought as far as PCBs, more like placing screw inserts and magnets into printed pockets. But the more versatile the better,
@@RobertCowanDIY Not as in SMD pick and place, but screw inserts, magnets, or other mechanical parts.
@@RobertCowanDIY Opulo actually makes a dedicated machine that is somewhat affordable for a hobbyist.
An awesome explication of the two machines.
I would add however (although you did touch on the subject) the XL might be worth considering if you produce a lot of colour prints.....due to the quick filament change it is much, much quicker than the Bambu (when printing multiple colour) and has very little waste
Correct, I KINDA covered that. The minimal waste and quick tool changes is a game-changer that few people are talking about.
@@RobertCowanDIY yeah you did cover it....I just felt it needed a little more emphasis lol
@@TDax Fair point.
If the 256 mm is too small, just divide the object into 2 or more parts and assemble them later I just saw this morning a print for an elevating stand of the color changer of the x1, printed in 4 parts and assembled into one perfect item I think the file was on makerspace
Eh, you can't always break a part into multiple objects. I tend to never do this since I need solid parts, not just cosmetic representations. For cosmetic parts, it's certainly an option with some post-processing.
I stand by my original concerns on the prusa xl. I just don't see the value for 4k. They are currently the only tool changer printer this size, but other companies will take note and you can bet competition is paying attention. I like prusa. I want to like the xl. I just can't justify 4k for an open air printer with 3d printed parts that I have to assemble my self. Right now they have a monopoly on the market but you can be sure that other companies are paying attention and I wouldn't put it past bambu to outright steal the concept and make their own tool changer in the future.
if you don't need the tool changer it's 2k, which is still more than some printers but a lot more reasonable for a big corexy printer that works
Until that happens I'm getting the XL, yes its expensive but I really like what I'm seeing with it.
Fully agree with your comments, two different machines, while i love my MK3s+, if they make a Bambu X1C Large Version (bed size similar to the XL in the next year) i'm all in
Kinda same! I'm not the biggest Bambu fan, but I'd be really curious to check out how they approach a larger format printer. I don't think many people realize that larger format comes with a whole bunch of additional issues.
@@RobertCowanDIY It will be interesting to see how Bambu approach building a larger model, having a larger build plate really does open up the possibilities of larger structural 3D printed designs, The XL is an amazing machine, but for a lot of people, its capability is more than they need. but Prusa support is also amazing, which deserves credit that is worth mentioning. look forwards to more content, the future looks exciting
@@brynsmith414 For sure, once Bambu figures how to do make a large format printer, things will get VERY interesting. It's what everyone wants them to make, but for some reason they decided to release bed slingers, the thing they said they'd never make? But the next 1-2 years will be really cool.
I don't need it, but the possibilities on this machine is why i want it.
Correct. Those possibilities come at a cost though!
Recommending an X1C as a first time printer... my type of humor ^^
Ha, why? It was a first printer for a LOT of people.
I would like to mention that i print petg and pla on prints all the time on the X1C. Mind you, one is used as an interface layer for easy removal.
Try printing TPU with PLA.....or PetG and nylon. Or PLA, TPU petG and nylon all at the same time on your carbon
@@TDaxTry printing without stringing😂
@@sanderpaulsen9375 the XL is cutting edge technology, it's not surprising there were a few problems in the early days....it's mostly sorted now. It doesn't change the conclusion of this video that in some specific cases the XL is the only game in town.
The country accent with “ pickup truck” is funny!
Is there any other way of saying it? ;-)
Be sure to get ur Kungpaoshizi Nozzle Wiper too, you're welcome :)
I had a deposit down for an XL from the day it was announced, however, I got so sick of all the delays I took the deposit back, Bambu lab X1and X1C were released but initially I did not buy one hoping that they had a competitor for the XL in the pipeline and I waited 14 months and as we know there was no commercial competitor to the XL and so I bought an X1C and AMS and it is an awesome machine but even though I have calibrated the purge amounts there is still more wasteage than I am happy with.
Yeah, but that's like saying you had a reservation for a truck and got tired of waiting and got a sedan. They're totally different tools.
I had the bambu. But in 4 Month i only use the ams 2 times because it tooks so Long. Now i buy a xl because i know i will use the different colors
Everyone is very different! Some people say the opposite. For me, I never use the AMS, it just doesn't appeal to me.
Spot on!
Thanks!
Great video as always!
Thanks!
Sorry but I disagree about the single-tool XL not being a good choice. I understand there are other large volume printers available but unless you are wanting to go completely DIY with something like a Voron or RatRig, then your other options are not very good, at least in my opinion. With the Prusa XL, you get their first coreXY commercial design and the ability to upgrade to more tool heads. And you also get massive support for software and profiles, something the other companies just don't do very well.
Fair enough. I'm not all THAT familiar with the other large format offerings. I was assuming there are better choices out there.
@@RobertCowanDIY I think you have the Creality K1 Max, correct? How does that one compare to the Prusa XL? I mean, I know it's not the same build volume with the Prusa being much larger, but just as a single toolhead comparison.
@@hitf5 Yeah, I have a K1 Max. It's not even in the same league as the XL. Print quality is just OK, with a lot of surface finish issues and inconsistencies. I think an upgraded extruder and hotend could fix it, but I just haven't spent the time with it.
Honestly, I think another elephant in the room is Bambu's very sketchy intellectual property practices, both for the end user, and for the broader market.
For sure, but I didn't want to poke the hornet's nest...
awesome video, very well explained
Dealing with Customer Service?
What are some alternatives to get the larger bed like the XL?
Voron I guess
Nice video, but there still seems to be some gray area even with the significant time spent on comparing the X1C and XL strengths. I need that XL multi-toolhead functionality (like the Ultimaker printers), but the bit at 4:10-4:25 suggests the XL is best if you get all 5 toolheads. What if you just need two and don't want to spend the $$? It sounds like the XL is not the recommendation in that case, but I don't hear any recommendation there. Do you have advice? I've had an Ultimaker 3 that worked pretty well, but it's basically dead now, and their replacement models are way more expensive these days. Thanks.
good to know, I like the multi-extrusion of both, speed of bamboo, but bed size of prusa, and it's tough to decide where I go to since I have a prusa mk3S+ right now
why not both?!
@RobertCowanDIY I wish, its just a lot of $
are the prusa heads all made out of harden steel ready for carbon filament printing?
Logistically speaking the Prusa XL have way too much mechanical and consumable parts IMO. Like you said both have their advantage over the other. I should receive my Bambu X1-C in a few days :)
I use them equally, but they're different machines. The XL is built much more like a kit, the X1C seems more like a mass-produced commercial product. No judgements there, just my impression.
I only ordered the xl because it prints multicolor so quickly. I wouldn't know what materials I could combine or what I need it for. 😂
Hi Robert, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I know that technically Prusa XL can print ABS, but as it is not an enclosure printer, do you believe that the Prusa XL can print well in ABS?
Problem with the Bamboo is the cloud ecosystem.
Cloud is optional.*
Source: I run my X1C Offline.
@@hawtdayum It is now? The TOS of the Bamboo speak of the camera and so on being used by the manufacturer over the net. Same with the cloud stuff. This makes the use of the Bamboo machines impossible for companies that develop their own stuff. For rapid prototyping and so on the 1C would be ideal. To have it just exist as a normal printer over the network would be idea.
Why I'm talking about this is because I was a service and product designer in a startup 3D software and printing company. Would have loved something like X1C back then.
@@jaanikaapa6925
Please reread what I wrote.. Offline means *no connection to anything* . SD card only. why are you talking about cameras, TOS or anything else?
This isnt magic or imaginary tech. Offline means offline. Printer works fine.
If you are moving the goal post to *Lan only* then again all traffic stays within network or you can run vlan, disconnected(from the net) networks and a with a work station. Or pay the IT tax of am X1E(2500) with ethernet and hardware kill switches.
So for example I was at a trade fair, brought a travel router with no internet access, (it just makes a local wifi network) X1C, laptop and was able to show off my prints and the machine in lan only mode with zero internet traffic. So all printer controls, worked including camera was completely contained with zero packets sent online/cloud. So for your example it would work perfectly. Look "Break free from Bambu Cloud but retain most features"
So not to flog a deceased horse...*cloud is optional*
I have a kick starter X1C since aug 2022 and offline has always been an option. and lan only has gotten more features over time. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not being honest with you and you should question them.
Yes it is optional.
@@hawtdayum Thank you. I've left the company, but have good ties to them. I'll let them know. Also this thing went on my to buy list. :)
Waiting for the X2
I'm not at all sure what they will come out with next, it seems like they're not at all paying attention to what people are asking for, they're just flooding the market.
@@RobertCowanDIY Yeah sure we don’t know but the next one will be something new and not a X1CXL i.e.. If they put something in between we also don’t know. They did a good job for a newcomer so long.
Very helpful video.
I was wondering if there were any issues with nozzle clogging when switching materials from high-temp to a low-temp material on the X1, since it has a single toolhead. Have you done any deep dives into multi-material prints?
I don't do multi-material printing on the X1C, just due to the waste and extra time. And it's really just for cosmetic purposes, which I'm not super into.
@@RobertCowanDIY I see - so for any functional multi material printing you would recommend using multiple tool heads
Trying to buy a 3d printer for the 1st time and I am confused. You stated that the Bambu lab x1c has to manually change the material to print multiple materials/colors, but on their website the AMS automatically changes material/color. Is the AMS new to the date of this video posting or am I misunderstanding what AMS actually does?
The AMS changes the filament automaticly. However, this does not work on flexible materials like TPU. Also no abrasive material (as they can damage the AMS - you can surpass the AMS and print them manualy of course).
As the filament is changed by cutting the ol inside the extruder and poo it out while loading the next filament, you should not combine filaments with significant different printing temperatures (PLA and PETG are near enough).
With the XL you have one toolhead for each filament. So it is not swapped and you can use different materials (not only different colours) and also abrasives (using an ObXedian nozzle in that toolhead of course) and TPU.
Also the XL support different nozzle sizes in one print (newest developer version of Orca Slicer, no official release yet).
So, while you can use both for multi colour, toolchangers are a whole new world if it comes to multi material.
Allthough im deciding beetween the X1C and the XL for my first printer, I would want the printer with the BEST print quality in term of overhangs and smooth prints. While ease of use is certainly nice to have, I can work with whats in front of me and the touchscreen and stuff isnt that important to me.
I think the only exclusive benefit of the X1 for me is that it has its own profile for the PLA Aero that bambulab makes, which i intend to use for model aircraft and other rc projects. I also intend to print accurately working gears, ssmall mechanisms etc.
Would you say the print quality is generally the same? If that is so, i will probably just get an X1C, but if the XL is a lot better at printing and produces better results more consistently then i would want to get the XL. The multi toolheads are something that im not too sure I will need, but are certainly something I would rather have and not need than need and not have.
Edit: While print volume is not really a factor for me and multi material prints arent too likely since I am only making functional prints and not really anything cosmetic, I would like to not have to spend so much time tinkering with aprinter. Ive heard so many ender 3 horror stories. I dont mind minor tweaks done every now and then, but heavy maintenance is something i cant do
If it comes to overhangs, an XL 2-toolhead might be the better option. The best quality for overhangs you get using a supportmaterial wich is easy to detach. While you can use PLA support interface layers on a PETG print and vice versa on a bamulab AMS, the printing time and waste can explode like crazy if the interface layers are not horizontal in only a few layers.
With 2 toolheads you can use different material for support much faster and with less waste.
Hey man great vid, new sub. What if I am printing multiple colors often? The cost of wasted filament wouldn’t take long to match the difference in price between machines. Right?
Makes sense, but next question if you choose Bambu: X1C or P1S?
That just comes down to features. If you need the hardened nozzle, screen, etc, get the X1C. If you don't need those extra features, the P1S is great.
If the price is not a problem the X1C with AMS is worth it. I have both and appreciate the extras on the X1C.
Choose between a Prusa XL or 3 Bambu X1C with AMS and roughly 10 filament rolls.
Ha, did you end up watching the video?
One small problem with the X1 Carbon. Bambu's customer support is horrible and they will make it a hassle to get your machine repaired or returned. Prusa's customer support is 24/7 and is excellent. Bambu is garbage. Period.
I made a longer comment which got lost to youtube error, but I think this is a reasonable take.
I also think that the current solution isnt even close to what I think will really break this multi material wide open. I think Bambulab with the A1 Mini's toolhead, seems to basically be planning out sort of what I envision to be a much cheaper, and just as effective system where instead of changing the whole tool end, you just change the hotend, because ultimately, the thing that takes time is getting the nozzle ready, so all you really want to do is switch the hotend to one that is already primed (so to speak, not primed as in the 3d printing term) for that filament.
A system like that would allow for way more filaments on one machine and reduce the cost and complexity tremendously.
Basically something like what MihaiDesigns is working on, I think is clearly the future of multi material.
No doubt for now, Prusa is the only game in town, but I don't think its end game, and instead only the beginning.
Edit: I also had the thought though, that for a maker who doesn't already have a CNC mill, they could actually be set with a Carvera tool changing CNC machine and a P1S for the cost of one Prusa XL, so that further limits the ideal customer. Just an addon thought.
changing the hotend and changing the tool head is the same amount of work...?
@@pinecone606 Not at all. One requires electronics to be connected and or dragged around, whereas the other is far more space efficientz would have no electronics on it and therefore would be significantly cheaper per tool.
Is the XL strictly open air only? Because that limits the filament choices. I haven’t sent anyone show the Xl with any doors.
I have a few videos on printing ASA on the XL. As long as you control ambient air temperature it's totally possible.
3:40 do i see that correctly that you are most likely building filament storage drawers?
im planning to build something like this as well, any learnings you can share with us already regarding this design?
I've been teasing this in the past few videos. You are right, it's a modular filament storage drawer system. Hopefully I'll be able to show it off in the next video or so. I'm almost done with it, I just need to put on some finishing touches. It will be shared on printables for free. Make sure you follow all my videos for more information ;-)
I'd go a bit further and say don't buy the X1C, buy the P1S, or for that matter, buy 2 P1S printers for about the same print as the X1C.
I’m sure a lot of people have been asking and I agree with your take, but I’m so tired of seeing these 2 printers compared… most often by people who just want to bash on Prusa for some reason. They are completely different machines with completely different “philosophies of use”.
Correct, this is why I didn't do a 'head to head', they're different tools!
The bashing is getting so old and really annoying at this point... I have nothing against Bambu but holy hell the community is annoying.
@@krollmond7544 It happens in EVERY industry. Telsa guys now suddenly talking cars in breakrooms, weekend warriors shitting on Ryobi, etc, etc.
Neither printer has what I'm looking for.
350x350+, CoreXY, Klipper, MMU, enclosed, failure detection, and doesn't require the hobby to be 3D printer tinkering constantly, but actually 3D printing parts.
The A1 isn’t featured in this. The A1 is by far better then the p1p however if you need an enclosure that’s a different story.
The A1 was recalled and not really comparable here. How is the recalled printer better than the P1P? I was mostly addressing actual requests to compare the X1C to the XL.
"if you dont need a pickup truck, you don't buy a pickup truck" you might want to tell that to most of the US then :P
Hey Josef, how about a USA factory for the big printers? "Made Texas size in Texas Czech Country, by Texans... The Prusa TeXL" 😀
Prusa should make the MK4 with a changer.
Prusa should just make a smaller format enclosed CoreXY.
I'm curious to see what the experience with the Peopoly Magneto X will be like
I'm quite interested in the printer, although I'm not sure any of the features really mean much for actually printing 'better', it will just be a bit faster and much quieter.
@@RobertCowanDIY The developer told the 3D Printing Nerd during the interview that the positioning accuracy of the linear motors used is 0.003 mm. I think there should be improvements in print quality despite high speeds, and on the other hand, with a 0.2 mm nozzle you should be able to penetrate the detail range of the resin printers while at the same time selecting any materials for functional applications
@@christiantoth7959 Huh, interesting. I'd be curious to see if positional accuracy is the issue with getting more detailed prints with FDM, I always assumed it was just the nature of the material.
For me it was large footprint and Prusa reliability. I have the 2 head and rarely switch tools but it is there if I need it.
That's one of the main reasons I got mine. I love having the larger build volume.
Prusa is no longer synonymous with reliability unfortunately
@@llkurofoxll1013 I'm not so sure I agree with that statment. If you're going by what you see in social media, it's heavily skewed towards companies that play the affiliate game.
so the only benefit of Prusa XL is multi material printing, other than that just get the Bambu
Yeah, pretty much. It's more versatile, but the X1C is better for everyday use.
I like enclosed 3d printers.
Then the Bambu is probably the better option for you.
Well said
Thanks!
You could save a ton of money by getting the X1C over the OVERPRICED Prusa XL. Hell just base to base the X1 beats it in price, and full versions....a 5 head Prusa XL is stupid expensive price. You could get the X1C WITH 3 extra AMS's (for 16 color printing) and STILL be cheaper then the XL.....oh and one is Enclosed the other....isn't.
As for large printers....a Voron 2.4 350 LDO kit is cheaper, still. Note: There is a color changing system for Voron printers that can be built up to 18 colors in size. As typical Voron design you build it how you want, and the kits for like a 6 color one are very cheap.
The main problem with Prusa is they are overpriced for their volume, or anything else they do, there is always something out there that is cheaper.
You should MAYBE watch the actual video. 'color changing' is not why toolheads exist. The AMS does that well (although with a lot of waste). But toolheads allow you to print dissimilar materials together with very little time between toolhead swaps. They are different tools. Watch the video, this is all covered.
@@RobertCowanDIY Thing is there isn't anything the XL does that the X1C doesn't do as well. Even when printing different materials at the same time, the AMS can do that too as long as you have a hardened steel nozzle to handle the more abrasive stuff.
The main issue with anything from Prusa is PRICE and the fact they are OVERpriced for their build volumes. Even the VORON 2.4 350 kit from LDO, is the more expensive version of a Voron kit, is still WAY under the cost of a Prusa XL. The Voron is same build volume (10mm difference), and ENCLOSED already. If you want multi material, a kit for about 200 bucks can set you up with 6 colors. You can build the ERCF to up to 18 colors or whatever you feel like building as long as you can find the parts to make it happen.
All together a Voron 2.4 350 LDO kit with an Enraged Rabbit Carrot Feeder 6 color is LESS ($1700) then a Prusa XL solo toolhead ($2000).
Being "super reliable" printers can only get you so far but when your prices are 50% or more then the competition and you don't do anything different then them, then what is your purpose?
Everything that competes against the Prusa XL is already cheaper by a good 500 bucks AND already has an enclosure.
@@SirLANsalot You should REALLY watch the actual video, all this is covered. If you can print TPU alongside a higher temperature filament and not take forever due to numerous slow filament swaps, please start a channel and show how you're doing it.
@@SirLANsalotI'm sorry dude but you are beyond delusional to think any Bambu printer can do multi material better than a toolchanger. You're just a Bambu fanboi.
The XL is a bit of a letdown and overpriced, but as the video says, comparing them is pointless
Compare the xl to a voron 350 with tapchanger or whatever, gets a bit closer to the price, is multi head and similarly sized
sounds like 3 axis cnc vs 5 axis cnc
A LITTLE bit.
I don't understand the statement that a X1C can't do multimaterial - if remove TPU as the AMS can't push that through - what is to stop you from printing multi- material? I print multi-material all the time
I thought I was fairly clear, TPU and abrasives aren't meant for the AMS. People HAVE used abrasives, but over time they will create issues. I'm considering that 'multi-material', since printing PETG alongside PLA is fine, but not really all that compelling for me at least. I want dissimilar materials.
He has a very niche use case. You have to nearly design parts to utilize it otherwise most common parts are either single filament type or assembled.
There are mods to print TPU with the AMS but like everything YMMV.
There is a special TPU called STTPU by DUDV2 which prints like PLA and softens like TPU.
Hardness 80D when printed (Dry) and 65A when soft. it can be submerged in water to speed up the flexibility through absorption.
Folks have had good success in the AMS with this.
@@RobertCowanDIY - Yeah.. I'm just going on my own experience - TPU agree - abrasives - 7 spools of Glow-ITD, and 3 spool (one partial spool they give you as a sample) of PLA-CF with no problems. I guess I didn't read the manual - wasn't aware it was not recommended - maybe I have not hit the level of power user yet...
There are two aspects of multimaterial that the XL does a lot better, and what he was alluding to:
1) multimaterial with tpu. Tpu on the bambu is a no go for the AMS.
2) multimaterial with very different temperature materials. On the bambu, you can't really do polycarbonate with say pla (ask me how I know!), you will get jams from the extruder melting the pla too early when switching. XL is great for this.
@@Tom--Ace Multi material isn't exactly the holy grail of printing for the XL. @YGK3D tested 12 different models and the ones mixed with TPU, printed but you wouldn't consider them successes as the models broke with my minor use.
And I'm still trying to wrap my head around why someone would use the superior polycarbonate mixed with relatively inferior pla.
So my question isn't could you do it, it's more why would you do it?
Forgot to add „do you want to be a public beta tester?“. Prusa really fucked up the MK4 and XL with all of the firmware issues
I haven't had any firmware issues with mine after maybe the first week of owning it. I think if you bought one today, there wouldn't be any hiccups once it arrives. Name one modern printer that hasn't had ANY firmware updates since it was launched...
Lack of a heated enclosure is a big miss at this price point.
Fair enough, but very few materials need a heated enclosure.
Powder based 3d printing. It is not just for metal.
Choosing between a $1,000 printer and a $4,000 printer (before tax and shipping so more like 5) that you then have to spend a day assembling. Look, the prusa XL is cool and all, but it's not remotely the same type of device as an x1c. And you can buy 4 of them for the cost of 1 XL.
What choice ???? Poor or Rich, those are the options.
Ha. Plenty of people are making money with machines, so it could be more a matter of which one can make you more money.
@@RobertCowanDIY Agree, but that is two separate types of consumers. To me it is like video cards, once the Bitcoin miners got involved I stopped building PCs and moved to gaming consoles.
The real elephant in the room is security of your files. with bambu they get access to your mdf files and gcode, the cameras and alot of ther information with prusa they dont get access unless you provided them
You can run Bambu printers offline. Has been a option since day one. Even 3d musk runs his X1C offline and through histrionics keeps downplaying that.
I'm not a big defender of Bambu, but when their firmware was cracked, they found no real issues. It's largely a rumor that they're somehow stealing private information.
What Large format 3d printers do you recommend if tool changing is not a priority?
I don't have any personal experience with them, but I've heard good things about the Sovol stuff. It's around 300x300 and I think they have a bigger one too. I've also had decent luck with the Creality bed-slingers, as long as you understand the limitations (relatively slow, not enclosed, might need to get an all-metal hot-end for higher temp stuff).
@@RobertCowanDIY okay👌🏻 will check it thank you!
You might take a look at the Rat Rig. I have two and they work well. You have to build them, and determine what hot end and extruder to use, but they have a standard. My 500mm cube can print almost anything. That size will be about $2K
@@woodwaker1 wow!
I’ve had a Raise3D Pro3 for several years. It’s 300x300x300, fully enclosed, and prints any material I throw it at flawlessly. But it’s also quite a bit more expensive than the Prusa XL
Prusa has been kicking this can down the roads for years and only got off their ass to actually deliver to customers once bambu started destroying them the past two years. Prusa likes to sit on consumers money and count it while delivering years later.
Eh, a toolchanger is much harder than the AMS. I don't see that as 'kicking the can down the road'. It's a FAR more complicated mechanism to get right and it does work as advertised. It's just a different product that most people don't actually need.
I understand that, but if AMS and accuracy was so easy why couldn't prusa get the MMU right a long time ago? Likes I said they've been upcharging for a long time without any real tech leaps for users.
alas this true
Someone seems to have forgotten that until very recently, Prusa were they innovators when it came to consumer 3D printers. Rather than kicking the can, they were maybe caught napping.
@cj5376 Prusa was at the top before Bambu came along, they had MMU before Bambu even came on the scene. Bambu just had speedier and cheaper printers. It's funny that people like you act like Prusa never did anything good.
Huh? You say you would only buy an XL if you have need for 5 tool heads for exotic-multi-material printing. I say you don't just buy the XL just for using different types of materials. (even though I do use multi-materials). Just printing TWO different COLORS (or the same material) on an XL , the XL will print 10X faster than a Bambu! And you don't need exotic multi materials to be useful, Have you tried using a different materials for supports? XL users are having amazing results using PLA for supports with PETG prints. They don't stick at all to the PETG and they are trivial to remove. Furthermore, as a large format printer, the XL has much better features than most other large format printers (eg a Voron) like automatic bed leveling, multi-heating zone on the print bed. The XL is a great value with just two print heads.
I think folks that are comparing multicolor/filament prints of a bambulab vs XL are not looking at the actual advantages of a bambu printer.
Let's get the basics out of the way *XL has the wins on general size*
The bambu printers have the edge on single color prints speed and quality but you arent limited to 4 colors as you can go up to 16. That is filament redundancy, filament drybox, that is not touching filament for 4-16kg.
When it comes to hardened nozzles, enclosure, printing exotic materials, camera, and a host of other features on the BL printers. XL only has the size and some niche multifilament situations.
Did you know you can print a model all in one filament and just have a single layer of petg/pla be the interface? this drastically speeds up the print time. I have seen folks print layer by layer with support and they are just wasting filament and time.
But the elephant in the room is the XL price and availability. the 2x print head is 2500-3000 before shipping and you wont see it until the later half of 2024
You can get 2-6 P1S/X1C /P1Ps and get in less than a week. Before the A1 recall that would have been almost 7 printers vs a single XL 5 head.
Imagine how many prints you can get in 6 months vs waiting for prusa to get your order sent. Then you are in for a full or partial printer build vs a machine that is ready out of the box.
If you are printing in a print farm like situation there is no calculation that will push out more parts on a single 2500-3000 (2head) XL vs a 3 p1s. The pricing gets more stark when you look at the 5 head printer.
A single XL may beat out a single Bambu printer in high multicolor changes but will not beat 2-6 of them printing in volume.
Id love an XL, but not at that price.
I have an e3d tool changer and its decent enough but my god did it require some tinkering and improvements to the machine.
The X1C is awesome, and its spawned awesome improvements to slicers (OrcaSlicer).
Ive added a few things the X1C does well to my e3d tool changer such as the purge bucket and nozzle cleaning.
But the XL I kinda feel is being held back by Prusa's firmware and actually even the slicer. And it just costs so damn much compared to literally anything else.
Sure the XL can print different materials but look how bad the print quality is given the cost of the machine.
Prusa XL is $4,000…
I have NO IDEA it was that much, wow!
@@kronosaurelius The "waste" issue is the biggest non issue when you actually factor out how much "waste" is at issue.
Each filament change is about .3-.7 grams. There is a very simple tweak found on butter pocket prints netting an additional 30-50% reduction.
But It would take hundreds of thousands to millions of filament swaps in waste to match the break even cost of X1C/p1S vs an XL.
This is years of printing, and 10s of thousands of hours before a single squirt of filament is extruded on an XL in price difference.
I am stealing this line from someone else. Folks who are comparing X1C vs XL and using waste as an excuse is *stepping over dollars to pick up pennies* .
If you can not afford the 5 head Xl and Bambu together. Than buy Bambu.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Having both is pretty nice. I use my X1C to prototype quickly and then print the final parts on the XL. That works for me at least.
Excellent Video. One of the deciders for me was the waste of multi-material printing. The difference is night and day! Having both here, the Bambu hasn't been switched on since the XL 5TH arrived.
My progression has been through IDEX and printing a lot of two colour stuff, or complex prints with dissolvable supports. My Z height was my main limit that annoyed me, with my FF Inventor being 160mm, and my Creator 3 being 200mm. My AD4 gave me 250mm but as I love making Rocket models I had a serious hankering for the bigger Z Height.
As both printers were announced about the same time, we were faced with a quandary of what to get. Son suggested he get one, and I get the other. So he went with the Bambu as I was the one wanting a bigger build area. So the Bambu arrived a while back and did some very fancy stuff. But the cut and rewind of the Bambu system isn't perfect. I'm in a hotter climate and I find that if the filament gets soft due to ambient temperature, then instead of a clean cut it can form a small "ball" which rapidly cools as it's being retracted, and often jams in the extruder, not being able to go out the feed hole. This has seriously driven me nuts as on several builds it's jammed, and to save the build I've had to dismantle the extruder (machine live to not lose the build) to clear the little bulge. As often as 4 occasions on a single build. That and the poop pile has meant it's retired to backup only styatus now.
You would need to eat hundreds of thousands to millions of filament swaps to match the price difference of the X1C to XL. $1450-$3500-$4000
The waste doesn't become a true factor unless you have done years worth of printing at a minimum.
Each filament swap at default is about .3g to .7g.
This is the first I have heard of the filament being a "ball" during retraction. The printer cuts the filament above the melt zone and retracts. How is it still molten unless you run in an environment that is above 60C or 170-180F. Under your circumstances the filament should be soft in the ptfe tubes during extrusions too.
*source I have an X1C with 10s of thousands swaps and retractions and 5k hours printed.
It's not just about price. Sometimes it's about adding significantly more plastic into the landfill. It's really wasteful to just purge that much material with no way to recover, recycle, or otherwise reclaim it.
Going to have to disagree on many points. If you want to avoid contributing plastic to a landfill why get into fdm printing at all?
1. Based on your uploads you cannot say you never had a failed print on the XL. Do you toss it or repurpose it?
2. The moment you decided to print with an FDM printer is the moment you decided plastic will end up in a landfill it's a fact of using them.
3. There are projects to reuse spent filament. A simple one is melt the plastic into a silicone molds(Uncle Jesse,1yr ago) CNC kitchen showed off 3devo(NOV2023) to repurpose filament but there are others.
4. You can design your models to reduce if not eliminate waste. There is little reason for filament change every layer if your parts don't need it.
5. But you should know there are filament recyclers such as printeriordesigns, terracycle stateside.
It's hard to justify a $4000 purchase to save a few cents in filament and you may *never see the break even price during the life of the printer*.
*My math is sound*. It would take years and hundreds of thousands to millions of color swaps before the XL even gets started to match the price spent and this is before you do butter pocket prints 50% additional yield purge reduction, the waste argument is not the biggest strength for the XL at that price.
You could potentially make the argument for the swap speed or size or if you get the right combination of compatible filaments which so far has been a mix of occasional success but mostly fails based on what is shown on YT.
I stole this from another commenter. "you are stepping over dollars to pick up pennies".
@@RobertCowanDIY It's not just the reduction of waste alone. Although the Bambu can print faster, it's way slower on every colour change, negating it's advantage. So I get both a productivity AND a cost (waste reduction) advantage.
Add to that a much larger build size as well. I can make Cosplay parts up to 360 x 360 x 360mm Vs 220mm for the Bambu. So less joins which are possible weak points for print failure.
@@theaussieviking8555 If you are printing cosplay parts that's even less reason to get an XL.
This can all be done on a single color printer and prepared later. Unless you want visible layer lines, layer seam, support pock marks. Prints coming off a printer, even with multicolor will never look as good as proper post processing.
Rarely will someone print a cosplay part and not have any post processing, Sanding, priming, painting, gloss, electroplating...
You can get a 400cubed printer around $500. saving $3500.
Support? Software? Replacement Parts? Longevity of being supported? Things especially beginners need to know what they are signing up for.
*Support*
I find the support argument an odd one.
If the printer is unreliable you need good support
If the printer is reliable good support is hardly needed.
I wonder where prusa XL falls as a bunch of folks are having issues with their XL.
1yr warranty on both (in the states)
*replacement parts*
All parts are inexpensive and available online for Bambu ,Full hardened hotend(heater, fan, thermistor is $35 otherwise nozzle is $15) shipping is fast and free over $50
Some parts are not available for the XL and are pricy. Nextruder brass nozzle is $50, hardened nozzle only is $60 Shippng is around $20+
Multiply all XL parts by 5 for the 5 head as they only ship brass initially.
Both have forums, communities, wiki and youtube channels for repairs.
Bambu gives you maintenance reminders for cleaning, greasing, including wiki links
*Software/firmware*
Bl had many updates and meaningful firmware updates since Aug 2022. Silent motors, camera, filters, remote controls and monitoring, object exclusion,
Auto filament calibrations, print fail detection, first layer detection and the ability to print without touching a slicer program
BL studio and it's fork Orca is arguably some of the best fdm slicers available.
Prusa slicer is well seasoned and profiles have been good for prusa printers.
Prusa some firmware is sitll considered beta and requires tweaking and tuning
*For beginners*
BL the printer is assembled and read to go in minutes, expect delivery within a week
The Prusa needs assembly even with the semi assembled version. Expect delivery in the later half of 2024
Longevity I am a kickstarter user(Aug 2022) of a X1C and have over 5k hours and counting. Only ever replaced normal wear parts.(nozzle, ptfe tubes)
Prusa XL hasnt been out as long so time will tell.
Eh, they're both pretty good. Longevity is something that is questioned with Bambu, but the XL is a completely new product with an unknown track record.
@@RobertCowanDIY I was more referring to the companies. I have heard Bambu support can be hit and miss.
@@tyler785I don't normally defend Bambu, but you have to look at their user-base. They got a LOT of new people into 3d printing, so the data might be a bit skewed since their users might tend to be less proficient. But in general, I'd agree. Prusa has better support and some of the best in the industry.
you get you money back in filament cause the bambu poops most of your filament out the back as waste go big or go home if you dont need to print more then 5 mats
Oh, it's not THAT bad. The amount of filament it wastes is not necessarily a big cost, it's just wasteful and takes time. UNLESS you're using really expensive filament.
Checking my bank account.. Whad'ya have in a 2007 Civic with high mileage?
Should be called the bamburn
Ha, how so?
Build a Voron :-p hahaha!
I dont remember if i asked before, have you tried soluable supports on the XL?
don't need to
PLA and PETG don't stick together so you can use them as supports for each other
@@thinfourth i thought about it for more complex designs where there is no or little access to remove the supports. And for PC materials or nylons.
Would the xl5 be a good buy if you buy it with one tool head but plan on adding tool heads? I'm thinking about budget.
I would probably hold off until you have the budget for it. Something else might come along, the price might go down, etc. My general rule of thumb is to buy a tool when I'm ready for it instead of buying the tool anticipating the need.
@@RobertCowanDIY I have the need for a single tool head printer, so I was originally looking at the k1 max for the size, and it seems a little more open source so I can use lychee, where x1c is pretty closed still. I haven't checked your channel yet for a k1 max review, I was going to look at that today.
@@brandonb417Eh, I'll be honest, the K1 Max isn't getting used all that much. I ran into some issues with bed leveling at high temps (for ASA), and the print quality for PLA is just kinda 'meh'. It's OK, but not in the same league as the Bambu or XL.
@@RobertCowanDIY That's good to know. So if I'm looking for a good core xy around the 300 cubed size what would you recommend? Is the x1c really that good or are they just driving a really good hype train?
@@brandonb417I'm not really aware of any corexy printers around that size other than building a voron. I'll see if I can find something, I think we just have to wait for bambu to come out with something. the x1c is good, but not quite as good as everyone would make you believe. it's fast, but if you want good solid prints, you might want to slow it down quite a bit. but it's a great prototyping printer for me.
I think Prusa has been a great company but they've gone mad with that asking price lol. Especially since Ive seen issues with the head swap mechanism, which is one of two reasons why Id even consider it. Personally I think they should be around $3k but I think they have a difference in revenue to make up since Bambu came to market.
I don't see it that way at all. It's just a much more complicated and expensive machine to make. It's arguable if it NEEDS to be like that, but looking at the machine in person, I can see where money went into it.
@@RobertCowanDIY it’s a nice machine, just not that nice lol.
Prusa make their Printer in the EU, not in china. They use quality material, like THK linear rail bearings, IFM sensors etc. they make their PCB in house with good QC. I have nothing agains Bambu, work well, but at the end it is no in the same league, Chienesium VS Quality parts, China cheap labour VS CZ EU job. It is not manufactured the same way, maybe to expensive for some polarized people. I like any 3d Printers, they all have their up and down.
@@RobertCowanDIY I agree, mine was the kit version. I was and still am impressed with the quality of the parts and how it is built. I have had problems and Prusa support has been great. Still learning how to make it work, but have had some great prints
@@IDirtbike Early adoption always comes at a big premium. But if you NEED the toolchanger, you need it.
Before watching, I would opt for the Prusa XL given the choice. While I do not like Prusa products in general (just my personal taste), I think from what I know the Prusa XL is a platform while the Bambu's are rather limited systems that are not meant for mods, expansion etc.. The Prusa looks like a relatively flexible platform, mechanically and software vise.
engagement is engagement?
True. I'm curious to see how Bambu responds to the bigtreetech LCD screen. They seems to be making it problematic through firmware rather than providing a path for people to make upgrades/mods.
@@RobertCowanDIY I meant to emphasize that I am not simply regurgitate @RobertCowanDIY video, but rather give my on opinion based on about 20 years of 3D printing exposure.
Bambu while a great plug-n-play tool, is more like an old StrataSys printer, closed and walled-in.
Name one FDM 3D printer other than Prusa XL that has more than 2 tool heads, has more than 300x300x300mm build volume and is not made in CHINA, that costs less than 5k EUR. Not everyone needs such machine, but it's still a great value.
You'll find no argument here. I agree with you, but many people feel that the AMS is a tool changer. It's just a filament swapper and IMO a much inferior method.
Why not both? Haha
I think they make a great combo together!
"if you're insecure, get the XL and never make anything with it"
-robert cowan, 2024
I'm not at all sure how you got that from the video, but everyone's free to interpret things how they want.
@@RobertCowanDIY just riffing on the car analogy
I have a XL5H and make anything with it, but bigger ;-)
@@kaiserruhsamHa, OK.
EU quality>>>CCP quality
The fucking irony with the prusa’s having issues nonstop since launch 😂😂
Agreed, but I didn't want to get into all of that ;-)
Supply chain is hard. Bambu has shown it's much more agile in the manufacturing space for sure, but MANY companies have had to re-evaluate their supply chain practices in the past few years. Prusa is not alone in this.
EU quality? The XL forums, reddit, YT, discord are littered with QA issues. Prusa even walked back shipping the 0.6m nozzles for the .4mm due to the print quality issues. Also they are still shipping with brass nozzles so abrasives will chew up the nozzle. It's $50 per toolhead to go hardened with the ObXidian
Then there are the beta firmware glitches and bugs this is hardly the best that the EU has shown.
Prusa xl vs x1c. 1200 vs 2000 ??? wtf is this comparison. They are wildly different printers
It might be a good idea to watch the video. It's a question I get all the time and I agree, they are completely different printers. That's what the video is about.
Kissing up to Prusa
Haha, really? My conclusion was "don't buy the XL unless you absolutely need to". How in any universe is that kissing up to Prusa?