I remember reading an article years ago about how many people are injured because they fall over while putting on trousers, strangely no one is suggesting trousers are far too treacherous to wear.
true story: I was effectively bedridden for almost a full week after throwing my back out trying to put my underwear on. It was early in the morning and my father who I lived with at the time was at work, so I had to call a friend who luckily happened to be awake, and she had to break into the apartment to help me because I couldn't come to the door. No one ever told me underwear is too dangerous.
I love the idea that all these supposedly prim and proper Victorian young ladies were getting absolutely smashed on punch at parties in a way that would put first year college students to shame! Also love the fact that the crinoline got the blame for their deaths not the HIGHLY FLAMMABLE silk that their dresses and would have been made from - kinda missed the obvious there guys!
yeah, and especially with this particular case, I don't think White is a dress historian - at all - and just made a quick leap without really taking in all the facts and possibilities. Like, did Mary's clothes catch on fire? obviously. But was it the *fault* of the clothing? No. I find it so weird that everyone, including the "witnesses" (who weren't there when it happened...so...yeah....) just act like Mary was solely responsible for everything that happened, because she had a "crinoline" on, when it takes 2 people to dance, and the man is the *lead* who is *responsible for guiding the dance partner around the room*....and yeah the likelihood of both of them being totally sober is ... not great lol.
The "Villain" (if there is one) is more likely to be the practice of weighting silks with tin salts, increasing the combustion risk of women's gowns, rather than any underpinning garments. The celebration, alcohol consumption, time of the night and extra fire hazards created a perfect storm scenario. Rest easy Mary and Emily, you have not been forgotten.
Most of the men’s wear of the time would have been wool, and so quite flame-resistant. The ladies dresses of the time were mostly silk, cotton, or linen; NOT flame resistant.
@@AJansenNL True though the lining would also not likely be flapping around freely either. Certainly not in the volume of a complete ballgown. He had better odds of making it through the night anyway.
Right. Elevated heel shoes and platforms were OG men's fashion. Yet have we EVER heard about how many ruined feet, broken ankles, too-short tendons, or crooked backs that MEN have ever developed?? Like, EVER-ever!?
I recall grocery shopping with a roommate once, and upon seeing no crumpets where they used to be, cried, “oh, no crumpets! Whatever shall we do?” Another woman who was passing by just lost it, and turned to me to ask, “did you just say ‘whatever shall we do?’ You have just made my day.” I love that phrase, so beautifully dated.
"She had to be helped down the steps because she couldn't see where her feet." Yeah, uh, tell me you don't have a large bust without telling me you don't have a large bust.
I lol'd at that too. I'm not THAT well-endowed, but last summer I went to a costume party at a dark nightclub with multiple poorly lit staircases, and I had no trouble whatsoever navigating those stairs in a full black ballgown with a large petticoat that rendered my feet invisible. The place was full of flashing lights, blaring music, and drunken randos, and the only time I had a problem was when the strap on my shoe broke. Assuming there weren't any footwear malfunctions, I suspect nineteenth-century women navigated stairs just fine.
there were no standards on stairs yet, though. many accidental falls caused by irregular heights and depths of stairs, especially in the less-fancy stairways built for servants and poorer people. @@onbearfeet
Evidence number 1 for me that it wasn’t “the crinoline’s fault”: there were no fires *during* the party when an unknown number (definitely larger than 2) of women who would have been wearing the same style of dress were in the same room with the same amount of open flame, but only occurred after when the room was certainly far more empty with only two women in such dress. It’s not like their crinolines waited for the party to die down so they could run into the fire when no one was looking.
I've seen it for fictional characters which is fine as it's usually making fun of over the top ways characters die or medical ignorance from the authors, meaning someone won't die from something in the story.
That ad, was a public safety initiative commissioned by the Australian Victorian Government for a rail way safety campaign. Many people had died unnecessarily on railway crossings, and a public saftey campaign was necessary. To say it went beyond viral is an understatement. It has been one of the most successful safety ads of all time. We studied it not long after it came out in Public Health at University and went viral for a reason - IT WORKED. Its not disgusting - its using humor and reality to warn children the dangers of taking random medicine and other silly things - together with very funny unlikely things like taking your helmet off in outer space - it speaks to children and Im not sure anyone could have come up with a more successful campaign.
pff, lots of people go down stairs every day without seeing their feet. Stepping on your hems is way more of a problem then learning how to see with your feet
Me: 37, can't draft a pattern to save my life 6 yo: Come, I will show you my studio where I design the latest fashion from naught but metal refuse and burlap
I would love to see your historian point of view on the #tradwife trend. (Not to disparage any religion or individual influencer). I think the emphasis on how women dress and act seems to be an idealized version of a past we never had in the US. It’s also feels a bit like Stepford Wives. I just keep hoping you’d put your academic eye on that trend. Regardless, I will happily continue to learn from your great channel.
What is a “tradwife” ive seen a couple YT shorts but it didnt really explain (and i also think the ones i saw were satire about it, or at least i hope they were)
I think this would be a bad idea. Abby is very liberal and would not be able to explain the tradwife trend without adding her own bias against it just as she did against conservative news in this video. Here’s a summary thoroughly history, modesty changes. As a culture becomes more Christian, the fashions become more modest. As the culture lose that Christianity, so it to looses modesty. This can be particularly evident in the 1840s and 1950s. A rise in traditional Christian’s brought very modest fashion. In the 1920s, there was an idea of fighting off traditional ideas and skirts got shorter.
Maybe it's my overactive crime-writing brain, but I am suspicious. Two young women, probably drunk, stay back after a party, apparently without chaperones and only males present, and skirts catching fire and rolling them down stairs is the best story the guys can come up with? Hhmmmm.
OMG. That was also my first thoughts! This all skirts on fire sounds more like a made up story honestly! I am also thinking more of a cover up for something that happened in between the guests… is there direct recollection from the victims?
The story doesn't add up at all. Why roll one sister down the stairs? If it was a good idea, why not roll the other sister? Why cover one sister in a measly wool coat? Why not something bigger? Why not cover the other sister at all? Then on top of all that, a family member puts a stop to the autopsy. Don't forget, these two women were illegitimate children. One thing is certain; it was not the crinoline.
I used to do historical reenacting when my son was small - he’s 30 now - and while we traipsing around in the mud and dirt sleeping in tents and cooking over open fires, I ALWAYS wore something I made from wool. I even wore light wool petticoats due to fire paranoia. My Apron was voluminous and also made from wool. I grew up cooking on a wood stove and I was well-versed in fire safety. My son was similarly decked out in fine wool fashion (cuz when they’re little you can dress them up like your own personal Ken doll!) and I watched him like a hawk. At night I would make little bags from wool scrap and throw fire bricks into the fire, pull them out when they were good and hot and put them in the wool bags and trundle them around selling them to other reenactors to keep their feet warm in bed. I made a killing - thank you, BaaBaa Blacksheep!
the cranoline kept men from encroaching upon the personal space of women ( who were only there to please men) I think that was a huge reason why men hated the fashion.
I was thinking about the character Nadja from What We Do in the Shadows. In portraits of her from earlier times, she wore a lot of slim fitting things. In the show, however, she takes up space. While she wears a lot of modern victorian clothing and doesn’t show a lot of skin per se, she is loud and knows her value and legitimately takes up space. I don’t know if the costume designers did this on purpose, but the fact that she wears such things in a day and age where women are more and more taught to take up less space, I think it is very telling. Like today, there is such a huge push by the toxic masculinity movement for women to simply exist for men’s pleasure. More and more it is being pushed once again for us to truly take up less space. In a situation where a man and woman are sitting together, the men will sit spread eagle while the women are supposed to keep their legs tightly put together. It’s just a really interesting thing to think about. And we definitely know for a fact that large skirts were hated by men because of how much space they took up.
@@pearlygirl88Maybe we should start wearing crinolines again. I wear dresses every day and in the winter I wear skirts under 'em and call them petticoats and *yes* bright orange matches everything what are you talking about. I'm learning to make dresses now, obvs I need me a short cage or a lot of tulle!
@@courtneybermack I actually wear them a lot! And petticoats! I just like how they look since I wear a lot of really swooshy skirts. I like that I take up space in them too. Like when I sit down, my skirts take up room around me. Go ahead and try to spread your stupid legs when you sit down. You’re going to realize you’re attempting to encroach on my space when you hit my crinoline.
I think weighted silk must also have been a factor in some of these alleged crinoline fire deaths. Pure silk, like wool, is naturally fire resistant, but the type of weighted silk that was used in the second half of the 19th c was apparently pretty flammable. Nicole Rudolph did a video on this. Also, A 6 year old girl supplied with tin cans, a hatchet, and some muslin succeeded in making a garment that adults with all of the correct supplies and years of sewing experience struggle with. Sure Jan.
My great great grandmother died from :shock following burns of body due to clothing catching fire at gas stove" in 1917, age 54. I'm sure no crinolines were involved, but the earliest newspaper I found for stop, drop, and roll was 1967. It seems to have caught on in the 70s.
I'm told the same thing about my great-great-grandmother, who reportedly was heating linseed oil on the stove and it combusted. She was badly burned and died a day later. I just hope she had the benefit of really good drugs because burns are agonizing.
You know it's a good video when it not only smashes misogynistic stereotypes around clothing, but also features a bonus Bernadette in full goblin mode, *AND* a reference to "A View from the Top"! 👌🤩🤩👏
my grandmother once told me the story of a neighbour girl of hers during childhood who had died from catching fire in her nightgown. I think she was maybe 10, and she dropped a candle on herself at night. She did get out of the house, ran around on the lawn, and her brother tried to put her out, but she died of her injuries. It very much affected my grandmother at the time. This would have been in rural Canada in the 1950s. So, it's not like crinolines are in any way required for this kind of incident to occur. Any generally flammable clothing is enough, really. Add drunkenness, and this kind of incident does sound very plausible.
My mother - also Rural Canada (Cape Breton, N.S.) lost her sister to fire, but since I was born in 62, would have been earlier ! Her sister was playing with matches, is how the story goes. But, it was in a nightgown ....
Dresses catching fire was pretty common in the 60’s according to some of my older family members. Polyester dresses were kind of new, and many people in Britain still had open fires. Polyester is just oil/ fossil fuels. Plastic melts and sticks to you too.
@@lunarose9 Indeed! and then, there were attempts to treat it to make it fireproof in the 70s, but those proved complicated as it turned out the chemicals used were highly carcinogenic. They developed some more chemicals through the years, but those are also pretty carcinogenic, so it's a hot topic as to whether they should be standardized or not...I think these days, the main reason why it's a lot more rare for people to catch fire is mainly that people smoke less (at least inside), and that nightgowns themselves aren't necessarily as common anymore. Regulation has helped, but it's not like the occasional deadly fire is no longer an issue, obviously...
My mother actually did experience her crinoline catching fire when she was a child, but it was a perfect storm of unlucky coincidences. She had not yet finished dressing, so was ONLY wearing a highly starched crinoline made of cotton net and a nylon slip; the woodstove was open because her brother was stoking the fire; he had just added a log of pine that was full of pitch. An spark flew and the garment went up like paper. Luckily her brother had the foresight to throw her to the ground and toss a nearby rug over her. She ended up with scorched hair and a few blisters on her back, but otherwise was okay!
I have always been under the impression it was little snacky finger foods throughout the party and then at midnight: A Feast! To help soak up some of that punch!
Regarding fire hazards and education: There is this wonderful collection of german children's stories called Der Struwwelpeter. The stories are supposed to teach kids in an age appropriate manner, mostly by having the kids featured in them killed in horrible ways. One of these stories is about a girl playing with matches despite her parent's warnings. Naturally, here dress catches fires and she gets turned into a pair of empty shoes and a pile of ashes.
@@LadyBirdieBop Yeah, the Struwwelpeter story book is "adorable" like that... It's a book of cautionary tales written by a 19th century schoolteacher. It also has a boy who starves to death, because he refuses to eat his soup, a boy who gets bitten by a dog bad enough to be bedridden, while the dog eats his dinner, because he was cruel to the dog, a boy who gets both thumbs cut off for sucking his thumb, a boy who almost drowns, because he doesn't look where he's going, and so on... I grew up with the stories, and also read them with my boys when they were little - not as little as kids should be when they read the stories according to the author, though. We talked about how different people approached child care in the past, and how they still believed in scaring kids into compliance. We had very interesting discussions about the morality in the stories, how it is actually mostly quite good - the author gets the mean characters punished quite drastically, for example - but in some things just horribly outdated, as we now know better than to assume that threatening a horrible fate would cure things like thumb sucking or having food aversions. When I was little, I always wanted to be Flying Robert - the guy who walks out in a storm against his parents' advice and gets blown away with his umbrella. I thought it would be a fine adventure to ride a storm to who knows where...
My German mother-in-law gave me that book while I was learning German (I still am learning, it is challenging!). I was initially taken aback, but then I remembered liking reading Grimm's fairy tales when I was younger. @@katze69
We had a little paperback English translation of Struwwelpeterthat I encountered on my own at about age 6. It TERRIFIED me. I much prefer Edward Gorey’s parodies.
Abby your great !!! For Realz!!.... And I'm all for you getting your coin!!....... BUT.... Please Please Drop Better Health as a sponsor..... They are horrible... And you are better than that and them!!??!!
Weren’t the chemicals used to dye and/or weight silk also super duper flammable? I feel like I remember learning that warehouses storing bolts of silk would sometimes burn if the fabric caught a spark from any source.
I can see how size of Mary Wilde’s skirt, including the crinoline, could have been a slight contributing factor If she was waltzing when it happened. I can see how even a sober lead could misjudge the space needed. We can assume the man would have been leading, i.e. steering, and Mary wouldn’t have been in control of her centre of gravity or have had a clear view of where she was being steered as she would have spent a lot of the dance going backwards while rotating. Thanks again for another excellent video! Edited for grammatical mistake
I’ve been wearing long full skirts around open flame for over forty years. My kids grew up around them. It really does make a difference when one has experience how one acts around fire. I noticed my kids tended to keep at least a foot or more away from the fires unless they were seated.
A high school classmate lit her hair on fire by holding a candle in a wedding. I can assure women who have long hair do not constantly light their hair on fire. She was fine, just lost a couple of strands and needed to fix her haircut
You had me riiiiiiight up until the Betterhelp sponsor. At this point, it is SO well documented how badly they’ve hurt so many who go there for help. Expected better from you.
Yup, same. I hit pause, dropped into the comments to write about this and was glad to see others have spoken up. Not going to unsubscribe (unless this sponsorship continues) but I did have to thumbs down this video and I stopped watching. Big, huge sigh...
its also very likely that during the party alcohol was getting spilled, perhaps on dresses or on the floor where hems could pick it up and then fly near flames while dancing. Doesn't take much to catch alcohol on fire.
I remember my parents talking about how strong the punch, rum balls, and various other imbibeables that my born in 1926 grandmother would make. I can only imagine that as a starting baseline for the parties and balls further back, and having my grandmother's recipe book? Holy moly that stuff must have been * strong * 😵💫
I have a recipe for Dandelion "juice" from my g-g-grandma that instructs to let the mixture sit until "real strong" 😉 No idea how long that actually was, but I DO know there was a decade-old bottle of it in my grandma's root cellar that the boys would occasionally take a sip from. It was... very effective.
I`ve seen my mother in law (boomer) down an entire bottle of wine in an evening, and her mother is a danger to everyone because she will never stop topping up your glass (and drink alongside you).
The Frances Parkinson Keyes' cookbook has a recipe that begins with soaking oranges and sugar in two bottles of brandy for two days. Then more alcohol was added. It only served 20-ish people.
Boyfriend walked in on part of this and pretty much stated that the only guys getting mad at things like crinolines and hatpins are the ones intent on bothering women who are just mad they can't. 😂
Old lady here: my grandma, 55-60 years ago told me that the very best weapon any (and all!) lady can ever have is a very long hat pin as the correct use of a hat pin can kill a man, easily. And I had such a hat pin with me when I went around the Middle East and war zones in the late 1970s and 1980s. About 6-7 inches long, one was supposed to aim it forcefully into the cardiac region and the small clot resulting could prove fatal. So reported my great-grandma from advice from her mother around the Civil War era.
How to Blame Women and Their Silly Interests for Massive Tragedies: A Guide Love your work so much and hope you are doing ok! Also, the Carl Jung bit made me laugh so loud, I startled my cat!
As an Irish girl, I’m 20 seconds in and the pronunciation of Monoghan already has me cringing, but one of my favourite channels making a video relating to my favourite author is too good to miss 😭🙏 (Edit) It’s pronounced Mon-a-hen, or similarly depending on your accent, but the g is silent (Edit) 4 minutes in and ‘Yeats’ is pronounced Y-ates :)
@@AbbyCox No worries!! Irish names are notoriously hard to pronounce 😅 you did an amazing job all things considered, it’s just ingrained in me at this point to correct people
*I BUY A LOT OF VINTAGE FABRIC* as I tailor historical clothing - In one batch I got some 1970's viscose-type stuff, I did a "burn test" *OH MY GOD* I have never known anything as flammable in my life...!!! I have no idea how people made it through the 1970s smoking and wearing firelighters for clothing.
I have a book on victorian ettiquette which does mark one thing about bustles - apparently people kept knocking over side tables, the lady who wrote the book really was annoyed by this
regarding the whole putting college student's nightlife to shame, I've seen shared the record of what was imbibed and George Washington's retirement party, and I think that the amount of alcohol would kill most frat houses.
Both can be true. I would recommend you watch Mickey Atkins content about Betterhelp it's very educational and is a great look into betterhelp and from a therapist point of view.
@@moda78z SOME. There are too many reports that show users being hurt, discriminated against or just straight up scammed. If were in a mental health crisis (which I am in right now) I wouldn't like the odds. Queer users being assigned intolerant religious therapists, users in dire need having session after session cancelled on them, non-certified psychologists? And on the provider side, therapists that are assigned too many clients and not being able to decline a constant influx of people, working long hours and having to always be available? And that's not to mention their recent campaign offering free therapy to exclusively Israeli people impacted by the war in Gaza. It's a good idea in theory but the more I hear of Better Help, the more it goes on, the more people it seems to hurt. It's not working. How many people need to be hurt in some way for us to cancel them? I don't want the service to end, I don't want to deprive people of accessible therapy, but it has to be RELIABLE.
@@moda78z the ones most likely to be helped by BetterHelp are the ones on their payroll. After all, no one is going to promote the service to their followers if they were being ghosted by their therapist or treated poorly for their orientation or gender identity. It's like Hello Fresh: that company is notorious for sending subpar and damaged/rotting food to normal customers, but those being paid to promote the service are sent beyond perfect boxes to show off.
13:20 -- I can't help but think of the stories of kids peeing in litterboxes at school and such and how those spread and have been on news and etc., and how little humans have changed in the past like, 150 years or so. It's genuinely really funny and also kind of saddening but... At least I guess it shows us that ridiculous stories about overblown "threats" to kids getting too much air time without anyone questioning them despite how OBVIOUSLY bull they are is a problem humans have always been facing!
I always thought they had a fire screen of some sort in front of fireplaces. I remember seeing a documentary type thing showing a laundress tending a cauldron of clothes over a fire using a skirt screen to keep her skirts out of the flame. They were well aware of fire back then.
One thing that struck me, and Abby mentioned it, the staff would have been banking the fires. The fires would be down to coals at this point ! You would NOT be adding fuel, you'ld be pushing the hot coals toward the back. Perhaps the grates would have been removed, so that's a danger, but, again, the fire would be just embers as they would NOT heat this room overnight ! If you fell INTO the fireplace, due to a removed grate, we'll, sure you might catch fire, but.....
If the snap-apple game shocked your fire safety sensibilities, can't imagine what you would say about the (still ongoing!) tradition of Tar Barrels in Ottery St. Mary (the most shocking part for me was learning how parents encourage their KIDS to carry the flaming barrels of tar on their backs as a rite of passage)
i recently listened to a podcast about the cold spring murders in 1868. Mrs and Mr Young were both shot but the shotgun blast lit Mrs Young's crinoline on fire 😬
I remember going on a tour of an English cemetery and being amazed at how old some of the tombs were. I saw one headstone that I couldn’t look away from. It was of a 19 year old girl who burned to death in the same fashion. I was 19 when I stared at that tombstone, now I’m 24, I still think about her sometimes.
I love the pieced-together animation, and the clips you edited in. I really appreciate the levity and whimsy to help lighten up such a double punch of grim topics - people dying in fires and people sensationalizing news to make marginalized groups look like they are too stupid to take care of themselves. I really enjoy getting to see you critically break down the news stories, from pointing out the things that should seem obvious like the 6 yo DIYing with a hatchet and tin cans without permanent injury, to the things that take more research and knowledge, like what Victorian parties and balls were like. When you upload a video, it is a small happy note in my day. Thank you. I'm sorry you've been having an upsetting time.
I singed my veil tulle on the unity candle at my wedding in 1992. No harm done (it's gone to two subsequent weddings) but it scared my grandmother silly. In 1938, aged ten, she'd been cooking on a wood stove in a flannel nightgown and caught herself on fire. She had scars on her back from shoulders to knees, the skin looked like melted wax. I wasn't allowed to cook til I was nearly grown (and still managed to grease splatter my own face once) because Mamau was so traumatized. And if anyone walked through the kitchen with unbound hair or loose clothing she'd ring a peal over your head.
Those poor girls! And the subsequent maligning of fashion as being the cause of their deaths! As you suggested, perhaps the servants had removed the fire guard during the process of banking the fire for the night and the tipsy gentleman steered his partner and her flying train much too close to the open flame. OBVIOUSLY, the tragic accident was caused by the lady's undergarments!
Not sure about the timeline, but weren't fancy dresses laundered with gasoline? I remember that being a big part of why the fire of the Charity Bazaar in Paris was such a disaster
Hi, on the BBC show Hidden Killers, they mentioned cellulose or an early polyester type fabric as a cause of clothing fires. Did you come across any mentions of this in your research?
My GreatGran (B.1905-D.2004) had told me one of her sisters died from a fire, her dress caught alight. Not sure how old she was, but definately a child. She was heating curling tongs, and knocked something causing embers on her skirts. She said about trying to put her out. That all the details i know, i was like 12 when she told me about it and didnt want to push her on it. She was nearly a 100 when she passed
At the beginning, it made me think these "gentlemen" did something, and then tried to cover it up by destroying the evidence of their crime. You're a much kinder person.
Speaking of the media, the Peshtigo Fire burned 1,875 square miles and destroyed twelve communities, killing between 1,200 and 2,500 people the same night as the Chicago Fire with 3.5 square miles and 300 deaths, 200 miles to the south.
Here we have a fun and well researched investigation into a tragic and misrepresented event ~150 years ago and a mild overview of women's fashion history in the latter half of the 19th century. This video is actually about modern electoral politics and media-literacy.
Could their dresses have been made from artificial silk? Spun from Nitrocellulose, also known as guncotton. We learnd at Uni that there were quite a few deaths due to someone having the bright idea to make fabric out of an explosive. It is ridiculously flammable and was invented around the correct time.
Your channel receives the best comments! Like-minded folk. Indeed. As soon as I heard the year, I thought it was surely the trains of their 1870s gowns, having worn one as a bridesmaid's dress in my friend's wedding. I had to keep reminding the groom's brother (who went down the aisle with me) to be careful not to step on my dress. Many reported fires nowadays can be tied to the candle craze amongst people who have no clue about fire safety. I had to grab a friend with long flowing hair and yank her away from my gas stove where the front burner was heating the kettle. She was convinced that her hair would 'be fine'. My reply, "Regardless, stand over there!!" She has an electric stove. Your comment that stood out to me was that the servants might have removed the firescreen. And that while drunk in an empty room, the twirling (and subsequent uncontrolled swirling of the train of Mary's dress) was a recipe for disaster. Great research; entertaining presentation.
I feel like the really dangerous item in this equation is the open fires. Hey - that whole thing in the 1960s and 70s about kids in flammable nightgowns brushing against bar heaters and burning to death was real, right? Or did we regulate fire resistance in kids' nightwear for no reason at all??
My mother’s older sister was severely burned as a young girl around 1943, precisely because she was standing near a bar heater and her nightgown caught fire. Our whole extended family has been extra-cautious around space heaters and the like ever since.
I was with you until I hit the BetterHelp sponsor 😬😬 Sooooo many people have gotten traumatized by their "therapists", a lot of whom aren't actual therapists. It's well documented.
Omg I used to watch you religiously during the pandemic 🥹 the flashbacks are real LOL. And somehow your videos just stopped showing up on my feed. And now this pops-up ❤ I have to binge watch to catch up 😂
Analyzing the evidence and considering the intentionality is so crucial - not just for historical fashion, but even in the modern day when looking at survey data and other research. Trying to make sure my students understand that, while also having to dispute "facts" on social media. Phew!
I'm seriously impressed by little Mary's crafting & sewing skills. Mad props to her. When I was sewing historic clothing I did an experiment with crinolines, and yes, the skirts go up pretty fast on a dummy. But long skirts in general will go up pretty fast on a dummy, so take that for what it is. Don't mix fire with fabric. Basic safety. Let's add alcohol, tiredness, and potentially a careless dance partner (not blaming, just saying), and that's a recipe for accidents. Yup. TY. That.
...I love when precise knowledge of historical fashion trends debunks tall tales shaming people of the past, and women in particular. Basically, I'm asking you to consider becoming a fashion detective/Mythbuster. That is a show I'd watch.
I've been curious about this, cause I saw a movie called "I Heard The Bells", which looked like it took place during the stereotypical crinoline times, and the MC's wife had a lit candle fall on her skirt, which seemed to catch on fire like it was made of paper, and it didn't make sense to me.
I believe that a 6 year old would have a tin can hidden under her shirt and look her mother dead in the eyes and say, "it's my corsette." An actual tin can, not something she hatcheted in to shape. God knows what this secreted home made toy was for. Also, I absolutely believe an unsupervised 6 year old would take a hatchet to a tin can, which is safe to assume in this story. Nothing wearable or actually resembling a corset, just some mangled metal hidden in her clothes.
I do wonder if a crinoline increases airflow, so ye olde stop, drop, and roll down the stone steps into the snow becomes less effective, there being air gaps maintained. Gosh I'd love a mythbusters-esque look into the physics of it! Also how fabrics and dyes of the time affect burn time. Like a nylon today in a dress like that plus fire would absolutely be an instant death sentence, but ive never really seen how silk burns.
I also question that lightning struck the porch of a farmhouse, and not anything higher at the farm? Like a tree or that barn or the house itself? No. The unusually talented 6 year old under the porch
I am old enough to have grown up in the tale end up in the era when open fires where the main way that homes were heated. There were fire guards always and we were told over and over as young girls , don’t go to close to the fire, don’t play (dance ) close to the fire . I can’t believe that those girls didn’t grow up being told exactly the same things .
The stories about crinolines catching fire reminds me of stories I was told as a child about how women in the westward expansion were often trampled by wagons because their sun bonnets limited their vision and they couldn't get out of the way in time. I was never able to corroborate that story, but I know my family insisted that was fact, often as if I had great great great grand cousins that this happened to. I'm curious if anyone else had heard stories like that.
There was a tv recreation of a wagon train some years ago, and a woman nearly was run over exactly like this. Her husband was outraged that her costume included such a dangerous bonnet.
I think it's fair to say that having fabric away from the body would probably make fires more likely- yes you might be a little less aware of it, but mainly that it would improve airflow and and it would take longer to notice so the fire could get a bigger start before you noticed. I wouldn't say that it's the crinoline's fault but I think it would have made the situation worse, I think you're right in that being drunk might have been a bigger factor though. Dealing with a fire when you're smashed would be a struggle- I've actually had a dress I was wearing start to burn/smoulder- a spark from a fire jumped out and got caught in it, luckily I was on a beach so I just ran screaming into the ocean and dumped water on the spark so I was fine, but the panic was real, I can only imagine that drunk people in a home they didn't know very well (so couldn't easily find the nearest water source- did they even have running water?) would have struggled to think of the best way to stop a fire.
Interestingly there's an incident at the Clifton suspension bridge in Bristol UK where supposedly a maid jumped off the bridge in an attempt to kill herself and her skirts /crinoline billowed out and meant she survived although was seriously injured. I don't know how true it is, I just remember hearing it when I was growing up
Back in 2018 I was singing for a group of wealthy Americans who were on holiday in Ireland. One lady held her menu too close to the candle nearest her and it went up in flames. Accidents STILL happen with fires, and she was just sitting there!
I am glad that people like you feel OK with talking about mental health. when. I tell people I am bipolar and have been successfully treated for 30 years ( but must stay on my meds for those who think I am "cured") They ( as Arlo gather would say) all moved away from me on the group W bench. so good for you!
I recall being told years ago about the Australian goldrush (mid to late 1850s) with the few women who lived in the goldfields being in constant danger of their skirts catching alight on the open fires in the camp grounds. I have not researched these stories in newspapers of the time to see if any of them were true. I also wonder about how flammable the crinolines may have been? I seem to recall hearing a story about a ballerina whose long tutu caught fire on the stage lights (maybe 1880s or 1890s?) and because of the treatment of the fabric she died from her horrible burns.
I'm a part of a reenactment group and I play the cook. Let me tell you, even if you have entirely reasonable skirts of a poor woman in mid 1630's, your skirts can catch the fire, if you get distracted. And I have linens and wools on, and the top wool skirt does not want to burn, just smoulder. One girl turned away from the fire and bent down to pick something, and her linen skirt got into the fire. She had blisters on her bum... If she had a fulffy silks on, well, good luck. The problem is not the skirt, it is the open fire. My country has a very few "crinolne fires" because open fireplaces went out of fashion by then, and your skirt just does not catch a fire from a fancy tilled stowe.
Tutus are usually made of tarlatan, which has a huge amount of surface area exposed to air, so when it catches fire, particularly if there a layers&layers of it, it can go up very, very quickly.
I don't understand how we can have such a sceptical generation and yet they'll believe what they read in an old newspaper of all things 😅 just because someone wrote it down doesn't make it fact. Thank you for sharing
I'm so tired right now that I keep reading "victory suit" as "birthday suit" and am like "why are we talking about naked people???" ... anyways, I should probably go to bed.🤣
![Kumamoto Masters Japan 2024 | Gregoria Mariska Tunjung (INA) [5] vs. Akane Yamaguchi (JPN) [2] | F](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EIjZybhsWqA/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember reading an article years ago about how many people are injured because they fall over while putting on trousers, strangely no one is suggesting trousers are far too treacherous to wear.
No more trousers 👖 for me😜
true story: I was effectively bedridden for almost a full week after throwing my back out trying to put my underwear on.
It was early in the morning and my father who I lived with at the time was at work, so I had to call a friend who luckily happened to be awake, and she had to break into the apartment to help me because I couldn't come to the door.
No one ever told me underwear is too dangerous.
I would do something so stupid. Not that the underwear commenter was stupid. But jumping into trousers two legs at a time? Has me written all over it.
I once had a sprained thumb from putting on socks. So there's that.
I love the idea that all these supposedly prim and proper Victorian young ladies were getting absolutely smashed on punch at parties in a way that would put first year college students to shame! Also love the fact that the crinoline got the blame for their deaths not the HIGHLY FLAMMABLE silk that their dresses and would have been made from - kinda missed the obvious there guys!
yeah, and especially with this particular case, I don't think White is a dress historian - at all - and just made a quick leap without really taking in all the facts and possibilities. Like, did Mary's clothes catch on fire? obviously. But was it the *fault* of the clothing? No. I find it so weird that everyone, including the "witnesses" (who weren't there when it happened...so...yeah....) just act like Mary was solely responsible for everything that happened, because she had a "crinoline" on, when it takes 2 people to dance, and the man is the *lead* who is *responsible for guiding the dance partner around the room*....and yeah the likelihood of both of them being totally sober is ... not great lol.
Punch was the least of it
well said abby
Drunk people die in dumb accidents all the time lol
Also, silk, being flammable like all fabrics, is not highly flammable.
The "Villain" (if there is one) is more likely to be the practice of weighting silks with tin salts, increasing the combustion risk of women's gowns, rather than any underpinning garments. The celebration, alcohol consumption, time of the night and extra fire hazards created a perfect storm scenario. Rest easy Mary and Emily, you have not been forgotten.
I love that Bernadette is just bundled up in the dark near the end. lol She's your Historical Costuming shadow lady, haha
I thought perhaps my eyes were deceiving me 😂
I was wondering who that was!
I wasn't sure at first and then I saw the Cheez-it box
"Your great-great Aunt Mildred's punch would make you see colors beyond what biology says is possible." 😂😂 I'm dead. That line just killed me. 😂😂
So you'd basically turn into a mantis shrimp?
And Lil Jon playing the part of Mildred had me rolling 😂
It’s Abby’s lines that absolutely get me every time.
My Grandmother is named Mildred and will be 103 in May. This reads correctly. 😂
I have no doubt that men's coat tails sometimes caught fire too. Accidents happen, to any gender.
Most of the men’s wear of the time would have been wool, and so quite flame-resistant. The ladies dresses of the time were mostly silk, cotton, or linen; NOT flame resistant.
@@nancyreid8729True. But the lining would probably not be wool.
@@AJansenNL True though the lining would also not likely be flapping around freely either. Certainly not in the volume of a complete ballgown. He had better odds of making it through the night anyway.
And playing Snapdragon…
Right. Elevated heel shoes and platforms were OG men's fashion. Yet have we EVER heard about how many ruined feet, broken ankles, too-short tendons, or crooked backs that MEN have ever developed?? Like, EVER-ever!?
I recall grocery shopping with a roommate once, and upon seeing no crumpets where they used to be, cried, “oh, no crumpets! Whatever shall we do?” Another woman who was passing by just lost it, and turned to me to ask, “did you just say ‘whatever shall we do?’ You have just made my day.” I love that phrase, so beautifully dated.
"She had to be helped down the steps because she couldn't see where her feet."
Yeah, uh, tell me you don't have a large bust without telling me you don't have a large bust.
🤣 Thank you! I had the same thought!
I lol'd at that too. I'm not THAT well-endowed, but last summer I went to a costume party at a dark nightclub with multiple poorly lit staircases, and I had no trouble whatsoever navigating those stairs in a full black ballgown with a large petticoat that rendered my feet invisible. The place was full of flashing lights, blaring music, and drunken randos, and the only time I had a problem was when the strap on my shoe broke. Assuming there weren't any footwear malfunctions, I suspect nineteenth-century women navigated stairs just fine.
Right? I ain't seen the steps my feet are landing on since my mid teens.
there were no standards on stairs yet, though. many accidental falls caused by irregular heights and depths of stairs, especially in the less-fancy stairways built for servants and poorer people. @@onbearfeet
@@jaciem 🤣🤣🤣
Evidence number 1 for me that it wasn’t “the crinoline’s fault”: there were no fires *during* the party when an unknown number (definitely larger than 2) of women who would have been wearing the same style of dress were in the same room with the same amount of open flame, but only occurred after when the room was certainly far more empty with only two women in such dress. It’s not like their crinolines waited for the party to die down so they could run into the fire when no one was looking.
The video call it a "dumb way to die" is so disgusting. Two young women burned to death. Gross, great video
The original song was an ad for safety on trains in Melbourne Australia
@@JenInOz yes i know, i used to play the game even. Still the insinuation is there that its the womens fault
People seem to forget that people on the past were in fact real. They just are so far removed to feel much empathy.
I've seen it for fictional characters which is fine as it's usually making fun of over the top ways characters die or medical ignorance from the authors, meaning someone won't die from something in the story.
That ad, was a public safety initiative commissioned by the Australian Victorian Government for a rail way safety campaign. Many people had died unnecessarily on railway crossings, and a public saftey campaign was necessary. To say it went beyond viral is an understatement. It has been one of the most successful safety ads of all time. We studied it not long after it came out in Public Health at University and went viral for a reason - IT WORKED. Its not disgusting - its using humor and reality to warn children the dangers of taking random medicine and other silly things - together with very funny unlikely things like taking your helmet off in outer space - it speaks to children and Im not sure anyone could have come up with a more successful campaign.
pff, lots of people go down stairs every day without seeing their feet. Stepping on your hems is way more of a problem then learning how to see with your feet
Me: 37, can't draft a pattern to save my life
6 yo: Come, I will show you my studio where I design the latest fashion from naught but metal refuse and burlap
I would love to see your historian point of view on the #tradwife trend. (Not to disparage any religion or individual influencer). I think the emphasis on how women dress and act seems to be an idealized version of a past we never had in the US. It’s also feels a bit like Stepford Wives. I just keep hoping you’d put your academic eye on that trend. Regardless, I will happily continue to learn from your great channel.
this is a good idea for a video!
Yes!!!
OMG!!! PLEASE ABBY MAKE A VIDEO ABOUT THIS.
What is a “tradwife” ive seen a couple YT shorts but it didnt really explain (and i also think the ones i saw were satire about it, or at least i hope they were)
I think this would be a bad idea. Abby is very liberal and would not be able to explain the tradwife trend without adding her own bias against it just as she did against conservative news in this video. Here’s a summary thoroughly history, modesty changes. As a culture becomes more Christian, the fashions become more modest. As the culture lose that Christianity, so it to looses modesty. This can be particularly evident in the 1840s and 1950s. A rise in traditional Christian’s brought very modest fashion. In the 1920s, there was an idea of fighting off traditional ideas and skirts got shorter.
How did I recognize Bernadette’s couch before I recognized Bernadette herself?
Omg same 🤣🤣🤣
Maybe it's my overactive crime-writing brain, but I am suspicious. Two young women, probably drunk, stay back after a party, apparently without chaperones and only males present, and skirts catching fire and rolling them down stairs is the best story the guys can come up with? Hhmmmm.
Supposedly he was there? Idk what he was doing though?
OMG. That was also my first thoughts! This all skirts on fire sounds more like a made up story honestly! I am also thinking more of a cover up for something that happened in between the guests… is there direct recollection from the victims?
The story doesn't add up at all. Why roll one sister down the stairs? If it was a good idea, why not roll the other sister? Why cover one sister in a measly wool coat? Why not something bigger? Why not cover the other sister at all? Then on top of all that, a family member puts a stop to the autopsy. Don't forget, these two women were illegitimate children. One thing is certain; it was not the crinoline.
I’m glad other people also have my same mind. 😂
@@Adrienne557 Also did no one at that party know what a bucket of water was?
I love how this video went from Myth Busting to full-on Detective Abby sorting it all out Atticus Finch-style.
I used to do historical reenacting when my son was small - he’s 30 now - and while we traipsing around in the mud and dirt sleeping in tents and cooking over open fires, I ALWAYS wore something I made from wool. I even wore light wool petticoats due to fire paranoia. My Apron was voluminous and also made from wool. I grew up cooking on a wood stove and I was well-versed in fire safety. My son was similarly decked out in fine wool fashion (cuz when they’re little you can dress them up like your own personal Ken doll!) and I watched him like a hawk. At night I would make little bags from wool scrap and throw fire bricks into the fire, pull them out when they were good and hot and put them in the wool bags and trundle them around selling them to other reenactors to keep their feet warm in bed. I made a killing - thank you, BaaBaa Blacksheep!
the cranoline kept men from encroaching upon the personal space of women ( who were only there to please men) I think that was a huge reason why men hated the fashion.
That was the script I was working on when I fell down this rabbit hole
I was thinking about the character Nadja from What We Do in the Shadows. In portraits of her from earlier times, she wore a lot of slim fitting things. In the show, however, she takes up space. While she wears a lot of modern victorian clothing and doesn’t show a lot of skin per se, she is loud and knows her value and legitimately takes up space. I don’t know if the costume designers did this on purpose, but the fact that she wears such things in a day and age where women are more and more taught to take up less space, I think it is very telling. Like today, there is such a huge push by the toxic masculinity movement for women to simply exist for men’s pleasure. More and more it is being pushed once again for us to truly take up less space. In a situation where a man and woman are sitting together, the men will sit spread eagle while the women are supposed to keep their legs tightly put together. It’s just a really interesting thing to think about. And we definitely know for a fact that large skirts were hated by men because of how much space they took up.
@@pearlygirl88Maybe we should start wearing crinolines again. I wear dresses every day and in the winter I wear skirts under 'em and call them petticoats and *yes* bright orange matches everything what are you talking about. I'm learning to make dresses now, obvs I need me a short cage or a lot of tulle!
@@courtneybermack I actually wear them a lot! And petticoats! I just like how they look since I wear a lot of really swooshy skirts. I like that I take up space in them too. Like when I sit down, my skirts take up room around me. Go ahead and try to spread your stupid legs when you sit down. You’re going to realize you’re attempting to encroach on my space when you hit my crinoline.
Cringe. Who do you think invented Crinoline....?
I think weighted silk must also have been a factor in some of these alleged crinoline fire deaths. Pure silk, like wool, is naturally fire resistant, but the type of weighted silk that was used in the second half of the 19th c was apparently pretty flammable. Nicole Rudolph did a video on this.
Also, A 6 year old girl supplied with tin cans, a hatchet, and some muslin succeeded in making a garment that adults with all of the correct supplies and years of sewing experience struggle with. Sure Jan.
I read the title, then you started with 1871 and i just immediately knew it was gonna be a "corsets kill people" kind of story
Hahaha
I need a history show where everything is presented with this style of story telling imagery
I vote for Abby and all her friend to do docuseries I'd by it for sure
Omg yes!
Puppet History
Right?
My great great grandmother died from :shock following burns of body due to clothing catching fire at gas stove" in 1917, age 54. I'm sure no crinolines were involved, but the earliest newspaper I found for stop, drop, and roll was 1967. It seems to have caught on in the 70s.
For a middle aged woman in 1917 it's not completely out of question. And yes, first response/aid has improved enormously between 1960 and 1990.
I'm told the same thing about my great-great-grandmother, who reportedly was heating linseed oil on the stove and it combusted. She was badly burned and died a day later. I just hope she had the benefit of really good drugs because burns are agonizing.
You know it's a good video when it not only smashes misogynistic stereotypes around clothing, but also features a bonus Bernadette in full goblin mode, *AND* a reference to "A View from the Top"! 👌🤩🤩👏
my grandmother once told me the story of a neighbour girl of hers during childhood who had died from catching fire in her nightgown. I think she was maybe 10, and she dropped a candle on herself at night. She did get out of the house, ran around on the lawn, and her brother tried to put her out, but she died of her injuries. It very much affected my grandmother at the time. This would have been in rural Canada in the 1950s. So, it's not like crinolines are in any way required for this kind of incident to occur. Any generally flammable clothing is enough, really. Add drunkenness, and this kind of incident does sound very plausible.
My mother - also Rural Canada (Cape Breton, N.S.) lost her sister to fire, but since I was born in 62, would have been earlier !
Her sister was playing with matches, is how the story goes. But, it was in a nightgown ....
Even today in Australia some kids pajamas like nightgowns have a flammable clothing warning on it because it is made out of polyester satin.
Dresses catching fire was pretty common in the 60’s according to some of my older family members. Polyester dresses were kind of new, and many people in Britain still had open fires. Polyester is just oil/ fossil fuels. Plastic melts and sticks to you too.
@@lunarose9 Indeed! and then, there were attempts to treat it to make it fireproof in the 70s, but those proved complicated as it turned out the chemicals used were highly carcinogenic. They developed some more chemicals through the years, but those are also pretty carcinogenic, so it's a hot topic as to whether they should be standardized or not...I think these days, the main reason why it's a lot more rare for people to catch fire is mainly that people smoke less (at least inside), and that nightgowns themselves aren't necessarily as common anymore. Regulation has helped, but it's not like the occasional deadly fire is no longer an issue, obviously...
My mother actually did experience her crinoline catching fire when she was a child, but it was a perfect storm of unlucky coincidences. She had not yet finished dressing, so was ONLY wearing a highly starched crinoline made of cotton net and a nylon slip; the woodstove was open because her brother was stoking the fire; he had just added a log of pine that was full of pitch. An spark flew and the garment went up like paper. Luckily her brother had the foresight to throw her to the ground and toss a nearby rug over her. She ended up with scorched hair and a few blisters on her back, but otherwise was okay!
Wow that is crafty 6 year old. I could barely walk in a straight line when I was 6.
What you were using a hatchet for some easy diy sewing projects?
Waiting until midnight for food? I wouldn't put up with that.
I have always been under the impression it was little snacky finger foods throughout the party and then at midnight: A Feast! To help soak up some of that punch!
A bite of something before going was part of the deal.
Irish pronunciation lesson: It's county Mona-han (the "g" is silent) 😀 Hey, we never said the language made sense!
Also: "Yates" (Yeats).
Makes more sense than Welsh at any rate.
And wouldn't Mrs Hime be pronounced Heem? Just and N. Irish girl's instinct. 😅
Like Dominic Monaghan! In the US, a lot of people dropped the "g" because they were tired of having their names butchered.
@@swilson3354 Haha! I doubt it xD
I live in Bexar County, TX. They pronounce it, Bear. 🤦🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️
Regarding fire hazards and education: There is this wonderful collection of german children's stories called Der Struwwelpeter. The stories are supposed to teach kids in an age appropriate manner, mostly by having the kids featured in them killed in horrible ways. One of these stories is about a girl playing with matches despite her parent's warnings. Naturally, here dress catches fires and she gets turned into a pair of empty shoes and a pile of ashes.
Oh, German children's tales 😂
I love how “child appropriate” and “killed in horrible ways” are in the same sentence. 🤣
@@LadyBirdieBop Yeah, the Struwwelpeter story book is "adorable" like that... It's a book of cautionary tales written by a 19th century schoolteacher. It also has a boy who starves to death, because he refuses to eat his soup, a boy who gets bitten by a dog bad enough to be bedridden, while the dog eats his dinner, because he was cruel to the dog, a boy who gets both thumbs cut off for sucking his thumb, a boy who almost drowns, because he doesn't look where he's going, and so on... I grew up with the stories, and also read them with my boys when they were little - not as little as kids should be when they read the stories according to the author, though. We talked about how different people approached child care in the past, and how they still believed in scaring kids into compliance. We had very interesting discussions about the morality in the stories, how it is actually mostly quite good - the author gets the mean characters punished quite drastically, for example - but in some things just horribly outdated, as we now know better than to assume that threatening a horrible fate would cure things like thumb sucking or having food aversions. When I was little, I always wanted to be Flying Robert - the guy who walks out in a storm against his parents' advice and gets blown away with his umbrella. I thought it would be a fine adventure to ride a storm to who knows where...
My German mother-in-law gave me that book while I was learning German (I still am learning, it is challenging!). I was initially taken aback, but then I remembered liking reading Grimm's fairy tales when I was younger. @@katze69
We had a little paperback English translation of Struwwelpeterthat I encountered on my own at about age 6. It TERRIFIED me. I much prefer Edward Gorey’s parodies.
Abby your great !!! For Realz!!.... And I'm all for you getting your coin!!....... BUT.... Please Please Drop Better Health as a sponsor..... They are horrible... And you are better than that and them!!??!!
I just dropped the same comment
@@jadeschultz1449 Well always good to know I'm not alone in thinking that !!
@@jadeschultz1449Glad to see a decent amount of people have commented about this.
Oh no, not a Better Hell sponsorship 😬😭
What's wrong with the sponsorship? Is there some drama surrounding it? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just curious.
@SewingandCaring ohhhhhhhhhhh ok thanks for telling me
@@Fatima-20-1Plus other stuff like using un(der)qualified therapists. There's a post here in the chat with more details.
I feel that you need the "Flames, flames on the side of my face" clip of Mrs. White from the movie Clue.
Bernadette Peter's. Absolute LEGEND !
@@m.maclellan7147not Bernadette Peters. It was Madeline Kahn.
@@ItsJustLisa Oh, my goodness ! What a faux pas ! 😳
Thank you for the correction! I believe that was after several nights with minimal sleep !
@@m.maclellan7147, it definitely was a brilliant bit of improv on her part. That bit was definitely not scripted. She did it off the cuff.
yaaaass!!
Imperial Petticoat Government is a *banger* sounding bandname
🤣🤣🤣
And it is IMP on the band shirts.
Weren’t the chemicals used to dye and/or weight silk also super duper flammable? I feel like I remember learning that warehouses storing bolts of silk would sometimes burn if the fabric caught a spark from any source.
I like the idea of bringing back the crinoline to enforce personal space and prevent groping on public transit.
Hatpins were also good for that😊
I'm sorry, is it just me or is one of the 'rotary ballroom dance' dancers in the video clip dressed as Aziraphale from Good Omens?!?!? that's AMAZING
Yeah that’s Nicole in her cosplay!
@@AbbyCoxYoooo amazing! :D
@@IneffabLeigh If believe Nicole has a series of videos of her making that cosplay along with a headcannon on her own channel.
I can see how size of Mary Wilde’s skirt, including the crinoline, could have been a slight contributing factor If she was waltzing when it happened. I can see how even a sober lead could misjudge the space needed. We can assume the man would have been leading, i.e. steering, and Mary wouldn’t have been in control of her centre of gravity or have had a clear view of where she was being steered as she would have spent a lot of the dance going backwards while rotating.
Thanks again for another excellent video!
Edited for grammatical mistake
The true crime junkie in me: Strange that the only gentlemen made it out unscathed…
I’ve been wearing long full skirts around open flame for over forty years. My kids grew up around them. It really does make a difference when one has experience how one acts around fire. I noticed my kids tended to keep at least a foot or more away from the fires unless they were seated.
A high school classmate lit her hair on fire by holding a candle in a wedding. I can assure women who have long hair do not constantly light their hair on fire. She was fine, just lost a couple of strands and needed to fix her haircut
You had me riiiiiiight up until the Betterhelp sponsor. At this point, it is SO well documented how badly they’ve hurt so many who go there for help. Expected better from you.
Same.... Expected her to do some research..
Yup, same. I hit pause, dropped into the comments to write about this and was glad to see others have spoken up.
Not going to unsubscribe (unless this sponsorship continues) but I did have to thumbs down this video and I stopped watching. Big, huge sigh...
its also very likely that during the party alcohol was getting spilled, perhaps on dresses or on the floor where hems could pick it up and then fly near flames while dancing. Doesn't take much to catch alcohol on fire.
I remember my parents talking about how strong the punch, rum balls, and various other imbibeables that my born in 1926 grandmother would make. I can only imagine that as a starting baseline for the parties and balls further back, and having my grandmother's recipe book? Holy moly that stuff must have been * strong * 😵💫
If it's anything like my Irish grandmother-in-law's hot toddy, those girls were ssssshit faced.
I have a recipe for Dandelion "juice" from my g-g-grandma that instructs to let the mixture sit until "real strong" 😉
No idea how long that actually was, but I DO know there was a decade-old bottle of it in my grandma's root cellar that the boys would occasionally take a sip from. It was... very effective.
I`ve seen my mother in law (boomer) down an entire bottle of wine in an evening, and her mother is a danger to everyone because she will never stop topping up your glass (and drink alongside you).
The Frances Parkinson Keyes' cookbook has a recipe that begins with soaking oranges and sugar in two bottles of brandy for two days. Then more alcohol was added. It only served 20-ish people.
Boyfriend walked in on part of this and pretty much stated that the only guys getting mad at things like crinolines and hatpins are the ones intent on bothering women who are just mad they can't. 😂
Old lady here: my grandma, 55-60 years ago told me that the very best weapon any (and all!) lady can ever have is a very long hat pin as the correct use of a hat pin can kill a man, easily. And I had such a hat pin with me when I went around the Middle East and war zones in the late 1970s and 1980s. About 6-7 inches long, one was supposed to aim it forcefully into the cardiac region and the small clot resulting could prove fatal. So reported my great-grandma from advice from her mother around the Civil War era.
How to Blame Women and Their Silly Interests for Massive Tragedies: A Guide
Love your work so much and hope you are doing ok! Also, the Carl Jung bit made me laugh so loud, I startled my cat!
As an Irish girl, I’m 20 seconds in and the pronunciation of Monoghan already has me cringing, but one of my favourite channels making a video relating to my favourite author is too good to miss 😭🙏
(Edit) It’s pronounced Mon-a-hen, or similarly depending on your accent, but the g is silent
(Edit) 4 minutes in and ‘Yeats’ is pronounced Y-ates :)
Sorry 🥲
Love the animation, and more importantly, see a historian showing why history is important.
@@AbbyCox No worries!! Irish names are notoriously hard to pronounce 😅 you did an amazing job all things considered, it’s just ingrained in me at this point to correct people
*I BUY A LOT OF VINTAGE FABRIC* as I tailor historical clothing - In one batch I got some 1970's viscose-type stuff, I did a "burn test" *OH MY GOD* I have never known anything as flammable in my life...!!!
I have no idea how people made it through the 1970s smoking and wearing firelighters for clothing.
I have a book on victorian ettiquette which does mark one thing about bustles - apparently people kept knocking over side tables, the lady who wrote the book really was annoyed by this
regarding the whole putting college student's nightlife to shame, I've seen shared the record of what was imbibed and George Washington's retirement party, and I think that the amount of alcohol would kill most frat houses.
Betterhelp is 🎶 shady 🎶
And very helpful for some.
Both can be true. I would recommend you watch Mickey Atkins content about Betterhelp it's very educational and is a great look into betterhelp and from a therapist point of view.
@@moda78z SOME. There are too many reports that show users being hurt, discriminated against or just straight up scammed. If were in a mental health crisis (which I am in right now) I wouldn't like the odds. Queer users being assigned intolerant religious therapists, users in dire need having session after session cancelled on them, non-certified psychologists? And on the provider side, therapists that are assigned too many clients and not being able to decline a constant influx of people, working long hours and having to always be available?
And that's not to mention their recent campaign offering free therapy to exclusively Israeli people impacted by the war in Gaza.
It's a good idea in theory but the more I hear of Better Help, the more it goes on, the more people it seems to hurt. It's not working. How many people need to be hurt in some way for us to cancel them? I don't want the service to end, I don't want to deprive people of accessible therapy, but it has to be RELIABLE.
@@moda78z the ones most likely to be helped by BetterHelp are the ones on their payroll. After all, no one is going to promote the service to their followers if they were being ghosted by their therapist or treated poorly for their orientation or gender identity. It's like Hello Fresh: that company is notorious for sending subpar and damaged/rotting food to normal customers, but those being paid to promote the service are sent beyond perfect boxes to show off.
BetterUp is far worse!
13:20 -- I can't help but think of the stories of kids peeing in litterboxes at school and such and how those spread and have been on news and etc., and how little humans have changed in the past like, 150 years or so. It's genuinely really funny and also kind of saddening but... At least I guess it shows us that ridiculous stories about overblown "threats" to kids getting too much air time without anyone questioning them despite how OBVIOUSLY bull they are is a problem humans have always been facing!
I always thought they had a fire screen of some sort in front of fireplaces. I remember seeing a documentary type thing showing a laundress tending a cauldron of clothes over a fire using a skirt screen to keep her skirts out of the flame. They were well aware of fire back then.
One thing that struck me, and Abby mentioned it, the staff would have been banking the fires. The fires would be down to coals at this point ! You would NOT be adding fuel, you'ld be pushing the hot coals toward the back.
Perhaps the grates would have been removed, so that's a danger, but, again, the fire would be just embers as they would NOT heat this room overnight !
If you fell INTO the fireplace, due to a removed grate, we'll, sure you might catch fire, but.....
If the snap-apple game shocked your fire safety sensibilities, can't imagine what you would say about the (still ongoing!) tradition of Tar Barrels in Ottery St. Mary (the most shocking part for me was learning how parents encourage their KIDS to carry the flaming barrels of tar on their backs as a rite of passage)
I cannot remember the game with the spinning apple and candle.
Abby, everything about this video is brilliant! Bravo! 👏👏👏
(And I’m very sorry about the bad news. ❤️)
i recently listened to a podcast about the cold spring murders in 1868. Mrs and Mr Young were both shot but the shotgun blast lit Mrs Young's crinoline on fire 😬
I remember going on a tour of an English cemetery and being amazed at how old some of the tombs were. I saw one headstone that I couldn’t look away from. It was of a 19 year old girl who burned to death in the same fashion. I was 19 when I stared at that tombstone, now I’m 24, I still think about her sometimes.
Woah! I think I just shared that headstone in a comment. Do you remember where?
I love the pieced-together animation, and the clips you edited in. I really appreciate the levity and whimsy to help lighten up such a double punch of grim topics - people dying in fires and people sensationalizing news to make marginalized groups look like they are too stupid to take care of themselves. I really enjoy getting to see you critically break down the news stories, from pointing out the things that should seem obvious like the 6 yo DIYing with a hatchet and tin cans without permanent injury, to the things that take more research and knowledge, like what Victorian parties and balls were like. When you upload a video, it is a small happy note in my day. Thank you.
I'm sorry you've been having an upsetting time.
I singed my veil tulle on the unity candle at my wedding in 1992. No harm done (it's gone to two subsequent weddings) but it scared my grandmother silly. In 1938, aged ten, she'd been cooking on a wood stove in a flannel nightgown and caught herself on fire. She had scars on her back from shoulders to knees, the skin looked like melted wax. I wasn't allowed to cook til I was nearly grown (and still managed to grease splatter my own face once) because Mamau was so traumatized. And if anyone walked through the kitchen with unbound hair or loose clothing she'd ring a peal over your head.
Men: How DARE she follow fashion??
Also men: Ew that girl is so out of fashion, she's so plain, not pleasing to the eye at all!
Those poor girls! And the subsequent maligning of fashion as being the cause of their deaths! As you suggested, perhaps the servants had removed the fire guard during the process of banking the fire for the night and the tipsy gentleman steered his partner and her flying train much too close to the open flame.
OBVIOUSLY, the tragic accident was caused by the lady's undergarments!
Not sure about the timeline, but weren't fancy dresses laundered with gasoline? I remember that being a big part of why the fire of the Charity Bazaar in Paris was such a disaster
What? They had all kinds of soap back then. Why use gasoline? (Edit, now I know. lol)
It’s a solvent
@@AbbyCox I didn't know that. Neat?
Bernadette Banner made a video where she does laundry using a 19th century guide, and gasoline was involved.
Hi, on the BBC show Hidden Killers, they mentioned cellulose or an early polyester type fabric as a cause of clothing fires. Did you come across any mentions of this in your research?
My GreatGran (B.1905-D.2004) had told me one of her sisters died from a fire, her dress caught alight. Not sure how old she was, but definately a child. She was heating curling tongs, and knocked something causing embers on her skirts. She said about trying to put her out. That all the details i know, i was like 12 when she told me about it and didnt want to push her on it. She was nearly a 100 when she passed
At the beginning, it made me think these "gentlemen" did something, and then tried to cover it up by destroying the evidence of their crime. You're a much kinder person.
Speaking of the media, the Peshtigo Fire burned 1,875 square miles and destroyed twelve communities, killing between 1,200 and 2,500 people the same night as the Chicago Fire with 3.5 square miles and 300 deaths, 200 miles to the south.
Here we have a fun and well researched investigation into a tragic and misrepresented event ~150 years ago and a mild overview of women's fashion history in the latter half of the 19th century. This video is actually about modern electoral politics and media-literacy.
Could their dresses have been made from artificial silk? Spun from Nitrocellulose, also known as guncotton. We learnd at Uni that there were quite a few deaths due to someone having the bright idea to make fabric out of an explosive. It is ridiculously flammable and was invented around the correct time.
This is an interesting theory
Your channel receives the best comments! Like-minded folk. Indeed. As soon as I heard the year, I thought it was surely the trains of their 1870s gowns, having worn one as a bridesmaid's dress in my friend's wedding. I had to keep reminding the groom's brother (who went down the aisle with me) to be careful not to step on my dress. Many reported fires nowadays can be tied to the candle craze amongst people who have no clue about fire safety. I had to grab a friend with long flowing hair and yank her away from my gas stove where the front burner was heating the kettle. She was convinced that her hair would 'be fine'. My reply, "Regardless, stand over there!!" She has an electric stove. Your comment that stood out to me was that the servants might have removed the firescreen. And that while drunk in an empty room, the twirling (and subsequent uncontrolled swirling of the train of Mary's dress) was a recipe for disaster. Great research; entertaining presentation.
I feel like the really dangerous item in this equation is the open fires. Hey - that whole thing in the 1960s and 70s about kids in flammable nightgowns brushing against bar heaters and burning to death was real, right? Or did we regulate fire resistance in kids' nightwear for no reason at all??
Vintage heating mechanisms...like kerosene heaters...oof...
Well done on completely missing the point.
My mother’s older sister was severely burned as a young girl around 1943, precisely because she was standing near a bar heater and her nightgown caught fire. Our whole extended family has been extra-cautious around space heaters and the like ever since.
I was with you until I hit the BetterHelp sponsor 😬😬 Sooooo many people have gotten traumatized by their "therapists", a lot of whom aren't actual therapists. It's well documented.
Omg I used to watch you religiously during the pandemic 🥹 the flashbacks are real LOL. And somehow your videos just stopped showing up on my feed. And now this pops-up ❤ I have to binge watch to catch up 😂
Analyzing the evidence and considering the intentionality is so crucial - not just for historical fashion, but even in the modern day when looking at survey data and other research. Trying to make sure my students understand that, while also having to dispute "facts" on social media. Phew!
I'm seriously impressed by little Mary's crafting & sewing skills. Mad props to her.
When I was sewing historic clothing I did an experiment with crinolines, and yes, the skirts go up pretty fast on a dummy. But long skirts in general will go up pretty fast on a dummy, so take that for what it is. Don't mix fire with fabric. Basic safety.
Let's add alcohol, tiredness, and potentially a careless dance partner (not blaming, just saying), and that's a recipe for accidents. Yup. TY. That.
Blunt force trauma will kill a person in any situation
...I love when precise knowledge of historical fashion trends debunks tall tales shaming people of the past, and women in particular.
Basically, I'm asking you to consider becoming a fashion detective/Mythbuster. That is a show I'd watch.
I've been curious about this, cause I saw a movie called "I Heard The Bells", which looked like it took place during the stereotypical crinoline times, and the MC's wife had a lit candle fall on her skirt, which seemed to catch on fire like it was made of paper, and it didn't make sense to me.
*Sir William, or Sir William Wilde, but not Sir Wilde. "Sir" is always used with first name.
Great video, thank you!
I believe that a 6 year old would have a tin can hidden under her shirt and look her mother dead in the eyes and say, "it's my corsette." An actual tin can, not something she hatcheted in to shape. God knows what this secreted home made toy was for. Also, I absolutely believe an unsupervised 6 year old would take a hatchet to a tin can, which is safe to assume in this story. Nothing wearable or actually resembling a corset, just some mangled metal hidden in her clothes.
I do wonder if a crinoline increases airflow, so ye olde stop, drop, and roll down the stone steps into the snow becomes less effective, there being air gaps maintained. Gosh I'd love a mythbusters-esque look into the physics of it! Also how fabrics and dyes of the time affect burn time. Like a nylon today in a dress like that plus fire would absolutely be an instant death sentence, but ive never really seen how silk burns.
You know that you’re deep in research mode when you break out the Chez-It’s with Bernadette. 😂
I love your deep dive - i never knew about this
& love your reference to current news 😂
I also question that lightning struck the porch of a farmhouse, and not anything higher at the farm? Like a tree or that barn or the house itself? No. The unusually talented 6 year old under the porch
You see, she had earned the wrath of Thor
That is a very sad end to what sounds like a fun night, brought down by too much drink making you clumsy and bad luck. Very sad.
I am old enough to have grown up in the tale end up in the era when open fires where the main way that homes were heated. There were fire guards always and we were told over and over as young girls , don’t go to close to the fire, don’t play (dance ) close to the fire . I can’t believe that those girls didn’t grow up being told exactly the same things .
WELCOME BACK! I MISSED YOUR VIDEOS! Also, disasters in Period outfits? I’m sat.
Looking forward to the first installment of your new YA historic fantasy series, "The Crinoline Fires"
... in which young ladies set fires...
Oo I'd read that!
The stories about crinolines catching fire reminds me of stories I was told as a child about how women in the westward expansion were often trampled by wagons because their sun bonnets limited their vision and they couldn't get out of the way in time. I was never able to corroborate that story, but I know my family insisted that was fact, often as if I had great great great grand cousins that this happened to. I'm curious if anyone else had heard stories like that.
That's a new one to me!
There was a tv recreation of a wagon train some years ago, and a woman nearly was run over exactly like this. Her husband was outraged that her costume included such a dangerous bonnet.
I think it's fair to say that having fabric away from the body would probably make fires more likely- yes you might be a little less aware of it, but mainly that it would improve airflow and and it would take longer to notice so the fire could get a bigger start before you noticed. I wouldn't say that it's the crinoline's fault but I think it would have made the situation worse, I think you're right in that being drunk might have been a bigger factor though.
Dealing with a fire when you're smashed would be a struggle- I've actually had a dress I was wearing start to burn/smoulder- a spark from a fire jumped out and got caught in it, luckily I was on a beach so I just ran screaming into the ocean and dumped water on the spark so I was fine, but the panic was real, I can only imagine that drunk people in a home they didn't know very well (so couldn't easily find the nearest water source- did they even have running water?) would have struggled to think of the best way to stop a fire.
Interestingly there's an incident at the Clifton suspension bridge in Bristol UK where supposedly a maid jumped off the bridge in an attempt to kill herself and her skirts /crinoline billowed out and meant she survived although was seriously injured.
I don't know how true it is, I just remember hearing it when I was growing up
Someone tried to argue with me on tiktok that corsetry was only worn by the idle rich and I was like... "way to out yourself as unread and uncultured"
Don’t you know darling, poor people don’t have tits.
Back in 2018 I was singing for a group of wealthy Americans who were on holiday in Ireland. One lady held her menu too close to the candle nearest her and it went up in flames. Accidents STILL happen with fires, and she was just sitting there!
Victorian punch making people see shrimp colors
I am glad that people like you feel OK with talking about mental health. when. I tell people I am bipolar and have been successfully treated for 30 years ( but must stay on my meds for those who think I am "cured") They ( as Arlo gather would say) all moved away from me on the group W bench. so good for you!
But, if you remember the song, he had a LOT of fun on the Group W bench ! 😂
I recall being told years ago about the Australian goldrush (mid to late 1850s) with the few women who lived in the goldfields being in constant danger of their skirts catching alight on the open fires in the camp grounds. I have not researched these stories in newspapers of the time to see if any of them were true.
I also wonder about how flammable the crinolines may have been? I seem to recall hearing a story about a ballerina whose long tutu caught fire on the stage lights (maybe 1880s or 1890s?) and because of the treatment of the fabric she died from her horrible burns.
I'm a part of a reenactment group and I play the cook. Let me tell you, even if you have entirely reasonable skirts of a poor woman in mid 1630's, your skirts can catch the fire, if you get distracted. And I have linens and wools on, and the top wool skirt does not want to burn, just smoulder. One girl turned away from the fire and bent down to pick something, and her linen skirt got into the fire. She had blisters on her bum... If she had a fulffy silks on, well, good luck.
The problem is not the skirt, it is the open fire. My country has a very few "crinolne fires" because open fireplaces went out of fashion by then, and your skirt just does not catch a fire from a fancy tilled stowe.
Tutus are usually made of tarlatan, which has a huge amount of surface area exposed to air, so when it catches fire, particularly if there a layers&layers of it, it can go up very, very quickly.
One of my ancestors, who’d have been a cousin of my great grandmother, died while a child when her clothing caught fire while the was sweeping floor.
Lil Jon being an accurate 1800s party goer is so fucking wild and hilarious 😂
I love gremlin Bernadette at the end lol
I don't understand how we can have such a sceptical generation and yet they'll believe what they read in an old newspaper of all things 😅 just because someone wrote it down doesn't make it fact. Thank you for sharing
That purple sweater ensemble is giving mom from home improvement vibes with that hair cut and it's great.
I was thinking of the victory suits of wwII and wondered what would todays version of the victory suit?
I'm so tired right now that I keep reading "victory suit" as "birthday suit" and am like "why are we talking about naked people???" ... anyways, I should probably go to bed.🤣
@@AbbyCox it's not just you 🤣