Fantasy Does Not Excuse Impossibility - Magic Systems and Limitations in Fantasy Settings.
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- Опубликовано: 20 янв 2016
- A little discussion of magic systems in fantasy settings, and a thorough rebuttal of those who apologize for implausible or impossible events happening in a fantasy setting.
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This is why I hate people who said, "there are dragons and ice zombies and you are bitching about how illogical it is for characters to traveling very fast?"
probo rahadianto - Exactly. Especially when limitations are established over and over. If they can move so fast why on Earth wouldn't Robert regularly visit Winterfell to see his best friend rather than go over a decade? I cannot be invested in the later seasons of Game of Thrones due to the lazy writing.
I agree with this sentiment, but the passage of time was conveyed through subtle means; the lighting changed, the water refroze after being broken, one of the characters succumbed to the elements. Not to excuse the other lazy plots; the whole Littlefinger debacle was only for the viewer's tension, but the amount of time it took for Jon's band to make it north and for the dragons to get there isn't one of them.
You guys should understand that the TV series is paced faster than the books are for a reason. It's not that the characters are 'traveling faster than would be possible', they're simply cutting out less relevant events between point X and point Z.
@@Agrestic yea it's like a mini fast forward. Time is still moving even if we don't see the events in between I thought ppl understood that from other shows or movies but I guess not
Will
I can buy the ice freezing over, that could take a night, but NOT gendry running 200 miles to the wall, a raven reaching dragonstone (1000 miles away) abs then Danny flying to them before they die of hypothermia and frostbite
"You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable" is one of my favorite quotes.
This is one of my favorite quotes now too
For instance, in the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, none of the things the improbability drive does is actually improbable, all of it is outright impossible.
One of the things that irks me most is when discussing continuity and realism in a story is when someone says "well it's fantasy." One of my pet peeves lol.
I like Tolkiens gap between Ilúvatar & Ainur as mythology base: "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
We prefer probable impossibility over improbable possibility - Aristotle's Poetics.
Limitations are the breeding ground for creativity so it's a great way to show a characters intelligence and discipline.
To give an example where this totally failed: Suicide Squad. Enchantress is established to be enormously powerful but her heart is her weakness. However she manages to get her heart back, which would imply she is pretty much undefeatable... Until the plot suddenly decides she isn't and a normal human just kills her. There was no explanation given to how they manage to beat her, no plan to circumvent her power or to outsmart her.
Skipped that movie.
They literally went out of their way to establish that "enchantress's heart is her weak point" like fifty times in that movie. Of anything that film needed less establishment.
"Her heart's out. We can end this!"
The title of this video describes my entire movie going experience. Thank you.
BigTArmada check out Needle Ash.... it's dope.
That's what I love about Sanderson, Mistborn has one of the most beautiful Magical Systems in its simplicity and adherence to physical laws, ok we're not debating where metals go when you burn them; they're just energy, but you can't push something that weights more than you, you'd be propelled and other examples of cool limitations to it that makes sense!!! and the Stormlight Archive is just awesome!
You gotta watch Hunter X Hunter. It's got the perfect power system.
@Michael Erickson What? There is no rpg that uses that kind of magic, it was ingrained in the world (atium mines, nobles have it because the gods interventions, Lord Ruler is epically powerful but in a logical way, it pushes its limits in good ways, it uses the eleventh metal *brilliantly* in the climax, the powers are varied enough to have lots of interactions and work very well).
Michael Erickson dude the magic system is so deeply ingrained into the world in ways we didn’t even know about until later into the series. Allomancy is also used a lot in era two to advance the technology of the world.
The Most important point here is that no one should ever be "all powerful"
and when a character has "god mode" and cant fail at anything - there is no threat to that character and the whole movie becomes boring and we stop dont care ...
+Invictus Antithesis I did a recent analysis of "One Punch Man," which is basically about an all-powerful character. The conflict becomes his inner struggle against nihilism, the danger is falling into despair and boredom, with the omnipotence being a comedic backdrop. For most stories, this idea would be terrible, but it works in One Punch Man because the fail state is different than what we usually see. Proof that you can do anything if you set it up right.
some people define science fiction as a story taking place in possible worlds, and fantasy as a story taking place in impossible worlds.
The problem with some fantasy is that it's inconsistent within its own established rules
Or that it doesn’t establish how things are different from our world. For example, Game of Thrones may be a fantasy series with ice zombies, dragons, etc, but our main characters are still mostly humans riding on horseback and such, so we still have valid complaints about them getting around a lot faster than they should be.
My issue with the new Star Wars has less to do with "magic systems" and more to do with contradicting universe physics. Between the Interdictor Cruiser in Rebels, the hyperspace jumps while in a gravity well during Rogue One and TFA, and the FTL ram in TLJ, the rules of hyperspace are really broken.
This was made before TLJ, so he was only talking about TFA. But TLJ just goes and helps reinforce the importance of what he's saying through its incompetence.
Really? I think it's simple.
While in that blue line thing, the ship is still manipulable to the outside world.
In RO, it was bad to jump in planet because a big enough chunk of rock would kill them. (Luckily they found an open spot in the rubble.
In Rebels/RO Scariff Battle, The Rebel ships could be manipulated (crashed into/pulled out of hyperspace/tear apart a hangar) because they still travelled that blue lie of entering hyperspace.
In TLJ, The bigger ship had a bigger blue line and could cut through the ships before it entered hyperspace.
I always connected those lines in the cockpits when they enter HS to that blue line you see when they come in from afar.
Like, are those, *not* the same thing?
KYBD Here's an overly long rebuttal of your post. I hope it clarifies some things and expands your knowledge of Star Wars.
No, those aren't the same thing. Hyperspace is a different dimension from Realspace (the old term for regular space), and the blue is just what it looks like. You can't see from one to the other.
In the Pre-Disney lore the sight of a ship going into or out of Hyperspace was said to be "a flicker of pseudo-motion". That means that while it looked like the ship accelerated, it didn't actually move. Now with the new lore the ships are actually accelerating, which creates some problems.
What accelerating into Hyperspace ought to do in an atmosphere to a ship is utterly destroy it. It's going so fast that the atmosphere doesn't have time to get out of the way, so you'd end up with a massive fusion reaction going on at the front, which would utterly destroy any Star Wars ship. This holds for both Rogue One and The Force Awakens. The reason it never happened in the old lore was that the gravity of planets and other large bodies would forcibly bring ships out of Hyperspace.
In The Last Jedi what damaged the other ships looked like some sort of wake, but that doesn't make any sense, since if that's a thing that happens (which I would be able to buy if it had been in the movies originally and had consistent implementation) it would destroy any nearby ships EVERY time one went into Hyperspace. Presumably what destroyed the other ships then was debris, which also doesn't make too much sense. Not only should the shields on the other ships stopped it, but the debris should have been accelerated past in the process of turning from ship into debris.
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about with the Scariff battle, since I haven't seen Rebels, and I don't remember the events you describe from the Rogue One, but there have been things like Interdictor Cruisers, which could create gravity wells to force things out of Hyperspace. Perhaps that's what happened there?
I've only seen a handful of your videos thus far, but I have to say that I appreciate the logical approach you take in explaining your viewpoint. Well done sir!
+Chemistry Talk with Dan Thanks so much watching and for the positive words.
Chemistry Talk with Dan read his books bro. I just subbed to his mailing list and got a two free books.
The important bit is that the magic system is sufficiently defined and consistent that the reader can treat them like physics in the book-world, in the same way that the characters need to be sufficiently defined and consistent that the reader can treat them like real people.
Great Vid - Really enjoying your content m8
i agree you cant just say "well its fiction" there fore anything is possible " thats not how things work
+Invictus Antithesis Thanks so much!
one thing... in starwars force users have ways of doing those things, but this is spot on... save superman isn't that tough against charachters on his own level or above. fantasy universes DO have "ruels"
There have to be rules for things, even if the author is the only one who actually knows them. And those rules have to follow the logic and 'fictional science' of your world.
You can feel the difference in writing when the author knows what they're doing. It's the problem with A Song of Ice and Fire... George R.R. Martin clearly has a lot of gaps in his storyboard and not a whole lot of ideas on where things are headed in the immediate future. That's what happens when you take your trilogy and stretch it out to 7 or 8 books after the first one already released.
He never should have let his agent/publisher talk him into that. Well, maybe not, as it *did* make him a lot of money. At the cost of ruining his story.
planescaped The necessity of rules is why the Matrix sequels don't work for me. Neo's power in the matrix is infinite, and what was a cool visual gag to end the first movie on (flying) becomes the baseline moving forward.
Excellent argument. Another really annoying apologist argument is that since all of the star wars movies follow the same formula then it is okay for Star Wars 7 to do the same thing. The problem with that is that criticism of star wars 7 is a rip off is not simply that it followed the formula but rather that it followed the formula in a way that created a story that made no sense, relied more on call backs to the original three movies than contributing any thing new (the only meaningfully new thing was Finn), and failed to advance the plot of the star wars universe.
+buu678 Well said, I totally agree. They took the plot elements of A New Hope but failed to create the connections between them, instead relying on coincidence to propel the story, and that makes it much less enjoyable than the other movies for me.
And what a waste was Finn. His story could have been very powerful, but they skipped past all his conflict and possible challenges to make him Rey's second banana.
+buu678 This "SW Formula" argument, if Im not mistaken, was first used by Stuckmann to defend TFA plot. Come on, lets face it, it is plain bullshit. All the previous 6 movies have original plots, they do share some elements but thats obviously because they are part of the same universe! The lack of originality of TFA was never seen before in any SW movie. Period.
Raphael Francisco Gritti Ferreira
I actually did get the idea from Stuckman. We are basically making the same argument.I do think that your version of the argument is better. The fact is that the original trilogy and the prequels had the same formula in a very superficial sense but were radically different in terms of underlying themes. The core theme of the original trilogy was a simple good vs evil story but the prequels were about the theme of how democracy can be undermined from within to become a dictatorship. This made the two trilogies feel radically different. TFA on the other hand not only uses the same story beats but is also heavily reliant on call backs and goes back to the same theme of good vs evil like the OT.
buu678
Exactly! I was actually supporting your argument with my previous comment, but you said it quite well yourself!
+Raphael Francisco Gritti Ferreira +buu678 Guys, GUYS *GUYS!*
RUclips is no place for a civil discussion.
Interesting point about Star Wars being a fantasy. When selling the idea of Star Wars to Twentieth Century Fox George Lucas made a point to call Star Wars a Space Fantasy. Although the plan was to make the movie for about 8 million and bank on the Sci-fi crowd to spend about 10-11 million at the box office using 2001: A Space Odyssey numbers as a benchmark. Well the movie ended up costing 11 million to make and suffice to say the box office numbers weren't at all what they predicted.
+ShamanMcLamie Haven't heard that tidbit. Thanks!
love the magic in LOTR very balanced and not over powered I.e two towers when saurumon (prob wrong spelling) got weak after the trees totally destroyed the tower.
"I can break a man's leg with a chicken bone."
"Do you have any chicken bones?"
"No."
My favorite fantasy setting is actually from a manga. Fullmetal Alchemist, it really delves into how the alchemy works and it makes it a really fun read or watch. Is a anime fullmetal alchemist brotherhood.
So I was today looking around some vids about storytelling, narrative and that sort of thing, when I saw a bearded guy on the side of my screen and thought "might as well hear what this guy has to say about such a wonderful narrative genre".
And here I am borderline hitting the subscribe button right now.
PS: very nice title, caught my attention immediately.
I also have a writing podcast - soundcloud.com/writersofthedawn or itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/writers-of-the-dawn/id1202124828
12:49 i like characters that are gods i like reading about mythology. I think it would have been better if you said “people don’t like characters that are omnipotent and flawless.”
Gods can be flawed, most are
I could listen to you all day. Love the way you explain things. Gotta new sub.
Brandon Sanderson is a master crafter of magic systems. You're always conscious of it's limitations and what they do to make the story interesting. It's also a great tool for suspense.
Edit: no joke, I posted this about 1 or 2 minutes into watching this and am typing this portion of the comment about 6 and a half minutes in lol. Go read Sandersons books if you haven't yet! And also listen to the podcast "writing excuses" if you want to hear Sanderson and 3 other authors tell you how to "git good" at writing
2nd edit: I friggin love pat rothfuss, name of the wind is great! And side note, words of radiance overall wasn't as good as way of kings (though it was still brilliant) but oathbreaker is really fantastic!
What are the most important words a man can say? ... I think I finally found it out....
I agree with your point and would like to add, if I may, that the larger purpose of magic systems is to establish the laws that govern invented universes and determine not only what is possible within them but what is plausible. At this level they function whether or not magic, per se, is present; in this regard one might call them fictative parameters. Speaking of Superman, a good counterexample of consistent fictative boundaries occurs in the film Superman II when Superman is fighting General Zod and the others in the Fortress of Solitude. I don't remember whether this scene is only in the director's cut, but Superman tears the shield off of his chest and throws it at Zod, Ursa, and Non where it transforms from an optical animation into a...huge multi-coloured cellophane wrapper? In our universe, the laws of physics are virtually absolute and profoundly interdependent. Arguably, if any law were capable of lapse or permitting of transgression, then none of them could exist even for a moment and the whole would never have emerged from singularity. So it is with fictative boundaries; they must be absolute or a fictional world cannot achieve existence or hope to transcend the tropes, clichés, motifs, or archetypes of which all fiction is constructed. Superman is not magical in the conventional sense; our yellow sun gives native Kryptonians tremendous physical power. Nowhere in that equation is there any suggestion that etheric layers of Kryptonian fabrics might be handled and transmuted at will into physical objects, and it is a laughable episode in an otherwise entertaining and internally-plausible motion picture. Similarly, the Rey character's instantaneous mastery of hitherto unsuspected powers reveals Abram's construct for the sham it is. Thank you for your erudite analyses-I have shared your various TFA videos with many friends.
+Joshua Stanton Thanks so much for watching and mentioning superman. I remember that scene.
And yes, I would like to affirm that these parameters (I usually talk about them as a magic "system" which really means they are like "physics" of the fictional universe. I use magic as term for anything that doesn't conform to our reality) are about confining the action to a set of possibilities that create that internal consistency. Violate them, and you can offend the sensibilities of your viewer, or otherwise undercut your story goals.
I also like Superman as an example of plot that often doesn't involve risk to the protagonist. The failure state in most superman stories is not superman dying, but him failing to protect people.
Yeah, the problem with that scene is that it doesn’t fit into the kind of fantasy that had already been well-established in the film; if Kryptonians had been shown using projected-energy tech or psionics like that elsewhere, it would make more sense.
I think another pretty good example of a magic system that doesn't really break boundaries unnecessarily is the Shanara Series.
This definitely agrees with one of my biggest criticisms about plots with movies and books. The fault is not with the limits they set, it's whether the author can keep to the limits they set for themselves. Thank you for these videos!
Love it dude. I always have to argue to get this point straight!
Thank you
Wow, super glad I found you through your star wars criticisms. Bringing up Brandon Sanderson in this video earned you an instant subscribe.
Everytime David speaks, truth comes out. The guy is brilliant and says it the way it is.
I also love the fact that he doesn't curse and swear every ten seconds. 👍👍👍👍
one bad example that comes to mind is the Oz series. as the books progressed, the stories lost coherence. whatever rules for what wizards and sorceresses could do were quickly forgotten. the nome king's magic belt eventually became overpowered. magic wishes could do anything. there were no rules limiting what kinds of objects could talk and have feelings. even jigsaw puzzles wanted to be put together. buns objected to being eaten. guns grew on trees. in contrast, Narnia clearly had boundaries for all these categories.
I never read the series after the first book, thanks for the input.
jasonc0065 I'm glad you brought this up. The major problem causing this lack of a coherent magic system is on one hand Baum being asked to continue the Oz series when he was more interested in creating new series. Baum tried multiple times to end the Oz series for good.
Therefore, many of the ideas he wanted for completely unrelated books had to be shoehorned in so that he could get them published at all. Case in point: The Scarecrow of Oz and Rinkitink in Oz have very little to do with previous Oz characters up until the climax. This is good evidence that Baum was writing other novels but had to include Oz somehow because that's what his publisher/readers wanted. Allegedly there's a non-Oz version of Rinkitink in Oz but most of it is gone because Baum almost always destroyed his first drafts.
The other major part of the problem is Baum was terrible at editing and remembering previous details of his books, so a lot of things were retconned or renamed simply because Baum had no interest in making an official canon.
And then finally, none of the official Oz authors after Baum were consistent with each other. Ruth Plumly Thompson was more interested in turning Oz into high fantasy and/or adventure stories, Jack Snow wanted to return to basics and had a set magic system, John R. Neill tried to make Oz into a pre-Dr. Seuss Seussian universe. And everyone else falls somewhere between those three extremes.
A really great magic system is the powers of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" animated series.
Was
@@ketherga 'Was' implies past tense; as if Avatar: The Last Airbender is a thing of the past. Just like Harry Potter, and Lord of the Rings, and countless other stories, Avatar: The Last Airbender is a timeless classic with a living fanbase.
ONE PUNCH MAAAAAAN!!! I love how they play with this exact idea in that show.
I'm making my own video game, watching your videos provides a lot of guidance to the newb like myself. Keep em going!
Awesome! What kind of game?
I love the way Sanderson writes his battles!
This video made me reconsider how i handle magic in my own books. So far i have been having problems with my magic system, i never established what it can and cannot do. Magic, gods and monsters just started showing up. I have an idea of what i want to happen, but I don't know how to make a reliable system surrounding that idea.
This video helped me consider what i should do to set up the limits of this magic, especially right in the beginning, since my prologue really doesn't do anything to set up powers, or really even the plot.
The explanation for how Rey got her force skills up to snuff so quickly that makes sense to me is that she used the dark side. This was reinforced in the last jedi when she pissed Luke off by going towards the darkness without hesitation. It still breaks the magic system because to do that she should have been turned to the dark side in some respect, but that is a bit easier to swallow than her gaining force powers out of thin air heheh
That would be so interesting and has a lot of potential if they decide to go with that. But I don't know if the writers want to. They seem to want Rey to be personification of Deus Ex Machina
It actually would be consistent for Rey to obtain her power from the dark side. The first time she used her power was when she was held prisoner and controlled the stormtrooper's mind. We are told fear and anger and hate lead to the dark side. She was feeling fear and anger when held in restraints, and since Yoda said the dark side is quicker, easier and more seductive than the light, it seems likely that she would embrace the dark in order to get what she wants.
12:55
I swear to God, I really hate it when people use Superman as a Bad example in anything. Especially when it comes down to either his personality, powers, weaknesses, relationships with people/heroes/villains, or just the lack of understanding behind why Superman still exists as a prominent figure in DC comics.
I typed a huge rant but refreshed, oh well!
Anyway, I pointed out that how some of my favorite authors such as Lovecraft enjoy almost torturing their characters. He is notorious for never giving his characters a break. There is always a malevolent force waiting behind closed doors or something- anything just waiting to pounce! The trick to this is that rarely is there a mysterious item to save the day, rarely is there some sort of spell or potion that cures all problems. This is because the world has already established that such items either don't exist or are rare. I don't find myself thinking, "Oh, there just gonna find the next big thing to save the day." The stories keep within the realms, not of what is "realistic", but of what boundaries have been set by their universes.
Edit: As a counter example I'll point at Harry Potter. As much as I enjoy the atmosphere, I just don't enjoy the series due to what I consider a lack of restraint.
+Noah R I love Lovecraft. Great example of continuing tension. Each plot point reveals, but also creates more fear.
Harry Potter excels at the nebulous idea of 'immersion'. It does it so very well by having characters in particular who feel very normal, and who are incredibly grounded to their world. It's something that requires a lot of effort to pull off right, a lot more than some think. It requires the writer to care a great deal about their own world. That, and a great deal of good word of mouth, are why it was so successful. It made it easy to read for anyone, and easy to put oneself into the world.
Where it fails is an over arching story and world-logic that often clash with it's realism, it's snidely whiplash unbelievable villains being chief amongst them. This gets much worse in the later books.
Theo Cambel id say that the books keep mysterious all the way through
I think you are right about the lack of restraint in Harry Potter. This might be controversial, especially among Harry Potter fans, but I think the books would have been better if Harry Potter had died. How poetic, how ironic, it would have been, that in order to truly defeat Voldemort, the one who was named the boy who lived had to die. It was what the plot called for, on so many levels that he did indeed die. But Harry comes back from his own death, breaking all the previously established rules about how there are some things magic cannot do, and bringing back the dead is one of them. As in so many other cases, exceptions have been made for Harry Potter. He didn't fight against his mandated death; He didn't search for or discover a way to cheat death. We got no explanation for why he was allowed to come back. He just did, because, presumably, the author didn't want to let him die. In bringing him back, she merely skirted around a vast well of moral and emotional depth that was begging to be tapped. Comedy may be fun, but all the best stories are tragedies.
Philip Edwards he didnt die because of the horcrux voldemort accidentally created in him
Thank you. I have been calling this "consistency" for a long time now.
The Magic System in Name of the Wind is basically the thing that catapulted it in my top 3 of fantasy series. It is so intricate and elegant.
What about Sanderson's magic system ?
If done well, it can actually be very effective to establish a rigid magic system and then _intentionally_ break it. For example, Avatar. The rules of bending are laid out so that a person is born able to control only one of the four elements, without exception. However, as the Avatar, Aang completely breaks this rule. This sets him up as a special character and gives a sense of grandeur and wonder to him. Of course, this does run the risk of Mary Suing a character, but thankfully the writers were smart enough to focus on the burden of responsibility said power places on him. On the other end, Toph invents metalbending, something that was explicitly stated to be impossible in season 1, but by the sequel series it has become common practice. This shows a progression of the "science" of magic, new knowledge and skills are developed and become integrated into the world, making it feel like the magic system is realistically expanding. Really, Avatar is a fantastic example of how a rigid magic system can be broken and yet STILL remain just as rigid.
The example you gave shows how to correctly expand the boundaries of magic, and not break it. The same bending of metal was described - why no one did it before Toth and how she could do it. Unlike the new star wars as an example from the video. Already established rules are broken there just for the sake of a cool visual or to the move plot in easy way.
I love the fact that you used Szeth from words of radiance as the thumbnail
Hey! David's above 30,000 subs!
Yippie!
My personal favourite magic system is that of Garth NIX’s Old Kingdom series.
For two main reasons:
One is that the charter is a method of controlling and understanding magic (and is extremely commonplace) but is not the only way, just a popular one.
The other is that there is a geographical border between the world where magic works and the one where it doesn’t. The people of Ancelstier have heard tales of the magical land beyond the wall to the North but only the people that live close to the wall know that the stories are true.
Thank you!
when i see something like this and i say this is not realistic, i constantly hear shit like "you search realism in a story with dragons" or whatever... i hate this.
in those stories, we say ok, we accept this new rule for the world. and that's it, now the world can be changed based on it.
I like giving examples with the movie Inception. although not sure if it can be classified as fantasy, but in that world they add a rule for something impossible in our world. entering other person dream, controlling it and so on. and the movie is morphed around it.
that story, that general concept is impossible in our world (at least for our understanding) but although it's basically fiction and not possible, doesnt mean we can suddenly add people flying, or whatever else, outside those dreams. it's not realistic in that setting.
Yeah, fiction and fantasy let us create worlds with rules very different from ours, but they still have their own rules, and many things are still the same. These stories are made to explore themes, conflicts and ideas we encounter in our own world, so often humanity is still much the same to give us something familiar to understand.
And we know ourselves and our world well, so if something isn’t meant to be the same as our world, you need to justify it; even in a world like Game of Thrones’ with dragons and ice zombies, if you want characters to get around faster than humans on horseback, you need to provide some reason why they can, or else your timeline doesn’t make sense.
Nice video mate, well done.
When an author makes rules, it is sort of like making a promise to the reader. IF the character does this, THEN this will happen. When the author breaks their own rules, it feels sort of like a betrayal and absolutely destroys the reality of the story. The author promised you something and then took it away!
I wish I could compel JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson to watch your videos. Maybe those jerks would learn how to write a proper plot and do some actual world building, instead of world destroying.
unfortunately, they make too much money to care.
Jar Jar Abrams sucks but Rian Johnson is awesome & he's the most qualified to make an entire new Star Wars trilogy, deal with it.
Libert McFrye that moment when your sarcasm is so advanced that people believe you're actually an idiot.
commander31able
I dunno what your last comment means exactly but you look like one of them Star Wars VIII haters so I'll piss on it and on the rest of the thread just in case! kekeke
Libert McFrye guess your sarcasm isn't as advanced as I hoped.
I myself am writing a fantasy story and can confirm how difficult it is to build a solid magic system and stay away from creating a Mary Sue. They way i approach this is giving almost each character some flaws to go alongside their good traits. For instance someone is a gifted swordfighter but cannot stay off the beer/wine and gets drunk most of the times.
I going on the route of a young boy that learns he has magical powers but cannot control them at his will and is going out on an adventure with his dad to find someone able to train him.
This way the reader can learn like this boy as the books crawls forward giving hints as the story progresses.
First off... It's a pretty great vid' and a profoundly crucial argument to have, whether writing the fiction or critiquing what is written so that it may be better in future iterations.
As I listened, from my humble perspective more as a Game Master of fairly relevant experience, I thought at first I'd be somewhat facetious and point out that "Gurps solves all these problems."... BUT as comical as the sentiment is (true or not) it's not only ineloquent in its simplicity, but only about half correct.
The Gurps (Generic Universal Role Play System) "Basic Set" actually glosses over whether and how (exactly) to employ a magic system of any kind in the game. It does, however point out that CONSISTENCY is arguably the most useful tool in a good GM's "little black bag of tricks"... AND there are any of multitudes of Game Master's Guides and Dungeon Master's Guides that repeat similar...
I would like to point out that it's only through the setup of the magic system and then a follow-through of consistency that actually makes any magic based fantasy "believable" in the first place. We (audience or readers) struggle with understanding how or why the entire relevant world has to wait a full twenty (20) minutes to boil grits, but for some reason, Ms. Mary Sue's kitchen can boil grits in about eight (8) minutes or so... (My Cousin Vinny agrees).
AND... I thought it kind of fun to stick something in the canc...er... Comments Section that wasn't directly LotR or Star Wars related. :o)
+gnarth d'arkanen + 1 for mentioning GURPS.
Thank you, I just got through checking out your intelligence/knowledge fallacy episode... I'm loving these so far.
I kind of hoped you'd like that... and the other reference... :o)
Love the Earth Sea stories.
First, I agree with almost every thing you say in this vídeo. Except that, I think "Suspension of Disbelieve" it's more fitting than "Immersion".
"Suspension of Disbelieve" aims to just make that world believable.
Ex.:
We "disbelieve" that people can fly. But your story ask your to believe that they can. So it's asking you to "suspend" that "disbelieve". Then now that "disbelieve" of yours is turned in a "believe".
"Immersion", in the other hand, talks more about you being able to envision yourself in that world. It asks you not only to think that this world is believable, but that you can be (or may be) part of it.
So, I think that "Immersion" is a broader term than it needs to be for this point.
I would say that good example of this is a Deadpool comic (or film).
Every time he breaks the 4th wall, he destroys your immersion throwing you back to the other side of that wall. But you already had "suspended" the "disbelieve" that he can do that, so it isn't a deal breaker for your experience. What wouldn't be the same for Frodo talking about the Smeagol trying to reach The Ring while falling in the lava, right after we see that scene.
Oh hey! Another Stormlight Archives fan. :)
the biggest problem with breaking your own rules is that it simply leads to stupid characters.
"If they could do that, why didn't they just do it before?"
"Uh.... they forgot they had magic powers."
This is a similar problem to most Superman stories. A character that basically has no limits has to conveniently forget that he's capable of doing things for any kind of plot to happen. And when the plot does happen, he just looks dumb for not solving it instantly with his powers.
Fantasy DOES excuse impossibility, IF you do it right. People who do it right include Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan. People who do it wrong include Terry Goodkind and Cassandra Clare.
Doing it right is setting up rules for how your universe works, how magic works, and what exists. There is the possibility of leeway within that. For example, having things that the characters discover they can do with magic that they thought they couldn't. But it still follows the magic system. But the characters weren't aware that it was possible, that's all. A good example is bloodbending from the Avatar series. Waterbending is the manipulation of water, and blood is a liquid with water in it. The moon influences water, so it makes sense that it would also influence waterbending, with it being strongest at the full moon. Since blood isn't just water it makes sense that you require the full moon to use bloodbending, unless you are extremely powerful.
Doing it wrong is having random things happen to make your story work, without any explanation. A good example is a lot of things the main character from Sword of Truth does. There are no limits. If it's necessary for the story the character can just do it. The main character suddenly has a dragon because Terry needed it for the story.
My conflict over the recent batch of Star Trek and Star Wars 'crap' has lead me to here and another video. Aside from not only supporting my stances in regards to good storytelling, I've also either been taught new things, or things I already knew have been expanded upon or refreshed. Thanks for showing the importance of placing hard limits on things even in a supernatural setting. Stories at times tend to break immersion because, even when a character has massive struggles within a scene, the so-called goal post either cannot be seen, or gets constantly shifted due to 'magic', thus I stop caring. Anyways, searching for more vids...
Good point about the Matrix. It would've been horrible if they had ever made any sequels, where they broke the magic system by giving Neo inexplicable superpowers outside of the Matrix.
I knew as soon as I saw the title you'd talk about something Sanderson related.
well said, another example is Mathematics, which is fittingly sometimes called fiction/fantasy science, because it studies worlds that are not necessarily this one we are now in. sometimes someone (usually a non-mathematician, or a novice) will try to publish an erroneous result, and claim that it is true because it's mathematics, where anything can be true, and try do dismiss arguments that his result is false as absolutist/concretist. however, just because Mathematics studies worlds that are not necessarily real does not mean that anything is true in a given fictional Mathematical "world". this is because of the axiomatic method, which let's the mathematician set up the "initial rules" or "basic laws" of the world, which can never be broken within that world, and if they are broken, you must be in another world, or the world isn't consistent.
also well said about death stars.
Introducing new things you can do within an existing Magic System, either as something that was always possible but difficult and rarely taught or something new that someone rediscovered from ancient scrolls or figured out by himself isn't breaking the Magic System, but rather expanding it. As a fantasy universe expands with new movies or books, that is something it has to do to stay interesting. Adding to an existing mythology however only works if it doesn't contradict what is already established.
Star Wars, for example.
The very first movie, a new hope, shows that Luke required training and guidance in the force. It is clear that he would have never had even the slightest chance of blowing up the death star if it wasn't for the training with the flying ball that shoots lasers at him. The Prequels establish that a padawan normally has this lesson at age five or something.
After what I presume to be weeks of intensive training with Yoda in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke is still not ready to face of Vader and only survives with a hand cut of because Vader decides not to kill his own son.
The Prequels establish that Anakin/Vader has had at the very least two decades of training and even more practice.
Then Rey comes along, a random scavenger girl, and beats people with years of training and practice without even knowing what the force is. No in-universe explanation whatsoever.
Not Lukes Force projection, from TLJ however, because he could have figured out such a thing, and it was so hard for him to do, it killed him in the end...
I couldn't agree more with your general point but then you go against it in one of your first examples! If you can use the force to pick up a spacecraft then you have more than enough energy at your disposal to boil someone from the inside out in seconds - several times over in fact.
Yeah, but can the force just directly energize somebody's insides? We've never seen that.
So many shows break the immersion by giving their characters godlike powers. They had defined and grounded rules, but they always think they have to have more powerful villains and heroes instead of working within their limitations.
"You can't blow up planets with the force." yes you can, Darth Nihilus did it regularly. but other than that I get your point
The EU really expanded the limits of the force.
Daniel Scott didn't he just drain them of life? Or did he actually destroy them?
Nico Bruin He had planet wide force drain.
God your videos help so much!
Thanks!
You had me on the assassin in white thumbnail
He's a great example of exposition through action.
Was hoping you would bring up Xanth
But excellent analysis
Something you didn't mention: when a powerful character (the main protagonist or the paragon character, usually) extends beyond what the reader thought were the limits of the system, it must be done in a way that makes you gain a newfound respect for the character's power. That means that the character must break the limits by gaining new knowledge or self-development (in the case of the protagonist) or by revealing power he had kept hidden until now (in the case of the paragon).
Enjoyed the video, subbed :)
I'm curious to hear what you didn't like about Words of Radiance.
I know that this video is old, but I just want to know if it's possible to set up a magic system later in a franchise? Like say another space fantasy like Star Wars but the mystical part of universe won't be established until later when more information is revealed to the main character.
This is my magic system, it’s called L’ndith /ləndiθ/, meaning “stone craft”:
-L’ndith can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. L’ndith manifests itself through precious crystals, called khridhvel’nt /χriðvɛlənt/, roughly meaning “stones of wizardry” in the tolad /tɔlad/ language. Users summon l’ndith by properly reciting tolad incantations while making physical contact with khridhvel’nt. If used properly, l’ndith can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc.
-L’ndith is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain khridhvel’nt and learn incantations in tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of khridhvel’nt in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called l’ndrogh /ləndrɔʁ/ (stone-blooded), to use (or be used for) tolad incantations without crystals.
-Natural khridhvel’nt is a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial khridhvel’nt by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and l’ndrogh for their usage. L’ndith can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two khridhvel’nt (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly.
-After being used for an incantation, khridhvel’nt quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. L’ndrogh are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of khridhvel’nt. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Khridhvel’nt can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of khridhvel’nt is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes.
-Khridhvel’nt were created naturally by k’al’nv’t /kʼalənvət/, roughly meaning “paramount comets”, which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from k’al’nv’t. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one of the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became l’ndrogh from the khridhvel’nt dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the khridhvel’nt, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the khridhvel’nt so that elites could utilize their power.
-Even today, l’ndith is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from khridhvel’nt but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a khridhvel’nt society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called t’avdru /tʼavdru/ (meaning “the canon”), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about khridhvel’nt or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with khridhvel’nt, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some l’ndrogh. The lack of incentive to procure khridhvel’nt or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to l’ndith.
tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.
As far as "Magic Systems" in any form of media, I enjoyed Fullmetal Alchemist's "Magic System", wholly defined by one concept: "Equivalent Exchange". An Alchemist can do many things as long as something of equal value is exchanged for what happens. An alchemist can turn a pile of brass, glass, springs, and a block of wood and wood polish into a grandfather clock as long as the total amount of those items is equal to what goes into an actual grandfather clock, as an example.
And even justifications for going outside of this process exist. "Human Transmutation" is a taboo because it always goes horribly wrong, especially in the case of the protagonists Edward and Alphonse Elric when they attempt to resurrect their dead mother using the base chemical reagents found in an adult human body. Edward loses his left leg, Alphonse loses his entire body, and Edward sacrifices his right arm to seal Alphonse's soul to a suit of armor nearby using a sigil made of his own blood.
And yet Scar can get around this horrific effect of "human transmutation" by not actually "transmuting" any humans, as the process of transmutation is made up of breaking down and then reassembling something. Scar simply stops at the "breaking down" step, causing the state alchemists he assassinates to, as one character put it, get their "brains turned into hamburger meat". In this way, Scar is perfectly within the bounds of the magic system by exploiting a loophole that technically anyone could exploit if they so chose given that they had the transmutation circles tattooed on their arm like Scar had.
Oh, that's another rule of Alchemy in Fullmetal Alchemist, you need to prepare a transmutation circle within which the objects to be transmuted will rest during the process. These circles can in fact be put onto objects (Such as a prosthetic arm or a pair of gloves) to allow for swift use of a pre-set transmutation (Such as turning an armor plate on said prosthetic into a blade or to rapidly ignite a fiery blast in the air respectively). Without an object with a specific transmutation printed upon it, one has to manually draw a transmutation circle with mediums such as chalk, pencil, pen, paint, etc., and if the circle is drawn improperly, the transmutation could fail or result in a substandard result. That grandfather clock could end up looking like it was made by a bunch of lopsided gnomes with brain damage and bladder control issues, for example.
13:05 - would you please make a video on how to write a good Superman story? It's hard, but I believe it can be done.
14:14 A better example would be that Neo is accessing the cheat codes in a video game program. The Matrix in essence has codes that allow specific command functions/prompts. By manipulating the codes it corresponds to a specific command function/prompts which would correspond to specific actions and powers and abilities in the Matrix's virtual world. It's not magic that Neo is using but specific technology functions that seem like magic.
I really like how Christopher Paolini used Magic in Eragon. I think it is one of the most "logical" use of supernatural powers in any fantasy setting I know.
A reverse on this topic is when someone in a fantasy says something is impossible and people say its stupid that someone would say that since its a fantasy. People just dont understand that there should be limitations. Either that or it will turn to a shonen anime like DBZ where fighters throw galaxies at each other without care
The only time a "magic system" bugs me is when it is internally inconsistent - like a character not being able to do something in one scene, then suddenly being able to do it in another. Similarly, if a character can do something, then doesn't even consider doing it at a later point, when such a feat would be immensely useful, (and there isn't a plot reason why they'd need to hide their abilities), also bothers me immensely.
The term is "internal consistency". If people can use magic to do some things under certain conditions, it does not mean that anything is possible.
1:30 actually you can and it's been done. Also: teleportation of a big objects over insane distances, mind wiping of an entire planets, consuming planets, moving space bodies, immortality(when you can resurrect a character - because of "the force") etc.
Just because Gendalf isn`t all powerfull doesn`t mean that there is a magic system. In the end he is a magical creature(like a balrog), not a mage in the meaning that we are used to think.
Limits are not rules. Both limits and rules are of importance.
Have you read Jonathan strange and Mr Norrel? Thats a great book that declines to explain magic, where it really is chaotic, and I think it really works
Subscribed.
Brandon Sanderson! Woot! Woot!
Have you ever seen fullmetal alchemist or fma brotherhood as they're a good mixed of fantasy and syfy.
I spent 4 and a half years digitally and mathmatically, as well as creating my own metaphysical laws governed by that universes laws and limitations. I completely agree, for example i like anime like hunter x hunter becuase of the set rules, laws and aspects of the characters compared to dragon ball z (hate it) becuase of the dichotomy of meaning and importance to definition, understanding and implication
im writing a book right now, and it is perfectly balanced and makes sense which also has tied many of my readers into it becuase of the understanding of the universe rather then like most books (he can fly, so focus on what happens and the world) rather then the unique aspect of the character and the growth of those (abilities, powers, magic systems) Wuxia novels in china are the epitome of perfect in this regard for explanations
I’ve heard the concept of magic without a system referred to as “twiddledium”. Wizard twiddles his fingers and something happens. This is why I don’t like the sword of truth series (one of the reasons) is that the rules of magic, where they exist seem very inorganic.
Just a little note concerning the Force in Star wars, you could make someones blood boil and you may not be able to destroy the planet but you can kill all life on it.
When you say something is impossible about a fantasy story or even science fiction, it is really shorthand for "It is impossible within the framework of this story".
I am surprised that this video is 2 years old, and that the situation for Stat Wars use of magic is even worse. Now, apparently, Jedis can do anything but turn a stormtrooper into a mouse, withou even needing a magic wand.
The Force Awakens could have been set in 20th century Earth, Because IT'S NOT A STAR WARS MOVIE! Thanks for doing this.
+Alex Stone Thanks so much for watching!
I didn't realize we had invented lightsabers and space travel in the 20th century
The lightsabers are hidden in area 83
This is why fantasy based RPGs such as D&D and Pathfinder are good for this type of story telling. The “fire & forget system” gives the magic using characters (wizards and clerics in particular) a definite set of limitations. Once a spell is cast it can’t be cast again until the spell caster has a chance to rest and prepare the spell again. And if they use up their entire arsenal of spells then they are vulnerable to physical violence.
Another system that works pretty well is seen in some fantasy movies and TV shows. Essentially using magic is physically draining. The more magic a spell caster uses the more it tires him out. And the more powerful the spell that is being cast, the more quickly it wears him out. I think that this method might also be used in some MMORPG computer games as well.
Yeah, having mana or some other resource limiting magic is pretty much one of the most common aspects of magic systems, especially in video games.
also there is a separation in sience fiction between science fiction and sience fantasy. Advanced technology that makes sense vs magic etc explained away as advanced technology. guess in wich cathegory Starwars ends up in.
Interestingly to your point, Superman didn't originally have any flaws, but the writers had to put his weakness to Kryptonite in there because people didn't care about a perfect, invulnerable character.
Everything has to work within the realm of the universe that the story has created.
Way of Kings is a really amazing book
Stumbled on this, and had to laugh once I heard "there's things you can do with the force, and things you can't."
Heh, and they proved you right. Breaking those rules turned out very poorly for them.
Do you know what is worse than a fantasy without its own internal rules? A fantasy with internal rules that the author then goes and breaks because they've written themselves into a corner.
I really despise it when someone sets up a seemingly impossible situation for the hero, making you instantly interested in what clever trick they'll pull off to get out of it. But instead, they pull something out their ass that undoes the previously established rules.
Whilst not really fantasy, I can think of Star Trek as a series that has been guilty of doing both these things. The crisis and solution to the Borg in "The Best of Both Worlds," being a good example of taking the rules you've set up and sneakily introducing a weakness into the enemy based on those rules. But when Trek does it bad, oh boy does it do it BAAAAD! The basic example is the technobabble solution to a problem. Oh no, we've spent 30 minutes stuck in a tech-tech that makes it impossible for us to move and there's no way to counter this. Then clever character suddenly goes, "hold on, I'll just tech-tech this and generate a stream of uber god particles that will undo the problem. It'll make some consoles explode too, just so it looks like there's still some drama here, but really, we're all going to be fine because space-magic!"
I did a paper in college on technobabble in Star Trek and it was interesting to analyse, because in the best episodes, the technobabble actually makes logical sense when you unravel the complex terms they use. In the worst episodes, the technobabble is just made-up nonsense and not only is it made-up, but its the solution to the problem. Its not so bad when its made-up words to make it sound like an engineer understands the inner workings of his fantasy space engine, as its only there to make the character look competent. Its when you can replace the techy-sounding word with something like "ooglyboogly," and have it solve the problem with no explanation. Then it is simply a veneer used to try and trick the audience into believing you had a smart solution, when the truth is, you had no solution so hand-waived the problem away.
I understand that and can agree with should be the most common thing.
However, for things like magic I do not think it should every be fully explained.
What image is the thumbnail from?
Hey David, I'm a big fan of your videos. Quick question about Rey in Star Wars. Like you said in this video, her being able to master the force so quickly breaks the laws of the magic system in Star Wars. It doesn't go along with what we've learned in previous movies. So people try and argue she was already trained but force mind wiped by Luke or something. Would a force mind wipe fall in the rules of the force? I don't ever remember seeing something like that, but I could be wrong. Maybe it happens in the EU that you know about?
+Mark Merldawg It happens in Knights of the Old Republic, I bioware game from the early 2000s. It's an excellent game - probably the best Star Wars game of all time, with the greatest droid of all time (hk-47 -look him up on youtube).
You find out that you (the player character) were once a powerful Jedi who became a sith lord during travels in the outer galaxy, searching for ancient Jedi secrets. You were captured and near death, and the Jedi council decided to wipe your mind in order to save your spirit and because they believed you could be good again - if only you forgot what had corrupted you. During the whole game you can choose to go light side or dark side, and at the end you can choose to become Darth Revan again, or become the virtuous person that Revan should have been.
+David Stewart Ah I have heard about that game and heard many positive things. I never played it and didn't know anything about the plot, but it certainly sounds very interesting. Thanks for the information!
+David Stewart If Rey have had a force mind wipe then she still need to relearned everthing, the protaganist in Star wars Knights of the old republic had to relearn everthing again, they had an easier time of doijngs so. But they still had to relearn it.
+Mark Merldawg Introducing new powers and abilities are not a huge issue and even changing the parameters of a magic system particularly it's expansion won't kill immersion if proper limits are provided. I think an important point to remember is the powers and the limitations imposed should always serve the Story. The reason why Mind Wipe in Knights of the Old Republic works so well is first it clearly has limits. It's implied that only trained Jedi possibly multiple Jedi can perform it and the only person it is used on is basically in a coma, so they just can't use it on anyone willy nilly. Most importantly does it serve the Story versus just moving the plot along which in KotOR's case it very much does. It paves way for a huge twist that will shock and impress the player. In many respects a lot is possible in the Star Wars; with the Force arguably just about anything, but there has always been one overarching limitation in all the movies, television shows, books, comics, video games and other material and that is training and preparation are necessary. Darth Vitiate made himself immortal through the Force, but he had years of training, research and preparation and ultimately had to trick a bunch of Sith Lords into performing a ritual that sacrificed themselves and all life on a planet. Those are some big requirement. When he tried to wipe out life in the Galaxy he had to start a Great Galactic War that took him 1400 years to prepare for. Rey's biggest problem isn't that she is naturally strong in the Force, but that she is able to perform things she's never trained for and have no reason to believe she has, we actually have plenty of reason to believe she's never had training before. This is why her even knowing to perform the Jedi mind trick and succeed is such an immersion killer. It isn't that it's impossible within the Star Wars magic system, but that we have absolutely no reason to believe she should know how to perform it let alone even know what it is to make an attempt. It just comes off as bad fan service to move the plot along.
+ShamanMcLamie Well said. KOTOR's devices were not mere convenience. They served the story AND the gameplay, as the game's rpg elements are based around making decisions that have various moral implications. That's part of why it is so good - the story isn't tacked on, its fundamentally integrated with the gameplay.
okay first of all: i have to read way of kings. i know Sanderson is great (i read and loved the mistborn series the fourth well not my cup of tea but the first three are great) but you REALLY hooked me with that first scene. okay tbh this has a lot to do with personal favorites, like i love movement based abilities or abilities that grand mobility. Because a storm of flashes and lightningbolts and fire balls makes good cinema but is boring on the paper. detailed and fast paced movement within the confines of ones own ability, that is fascinating to read to me. there needs to be a limit, because limits spur creativity. what happens if you exceed your limits? it can be possible but should have consequences. like i´m watching my hero academia at the momen,t and as far as i am, Deku the protagonist can only use 5% of his abilities power. if he uses more, he´ll destroy his body. 6% already mean severe pain. but there have been several instances (like the whole first season) where he pretty much wrecked himself because he did not know how to tone down to that level. or where he did it deliberately because one strong shot was plenty while he himself within the 5% limit stood not a snowballs chance in hell. That´s stuff i like. And that is what limits give you. just a whole room to be creative. they make it easy for readers ot understand what your character can do and amazes them when he does something that is totally in his abilities but needed him to think outside the box.
for instance: you have a pyrokinetic dude and there is a huge fire in a building. What good is he going to do? He can create and control flames and is not harmed by fire. He ofc jumps in, saves people that are still in there and a huge detonation is about to hit a woman trying to save her child. He fires a blast of his own flames to push the shockwave back! another wall of flames comes their way, his left arm still immobilized from blocking the previous fire wave. he can´t move He will be fine if the flames hit him, but the woman and the child will be toast! he just thinks _stop!_ and in a desperate attempt he tries to control the flames behind him like his own. The fire stops as he commanded it. he tries to take control of more of the fire. he walks the woman and the child out of the building having the flames make way for them like soldiers for their commanding officer. these two were the last people in the building so it is time to test the limit of his newfound ability! he gathers all the flames in one spot, lifts them off the building and shoots them into the sky in one crimson ray of light. After that he faints.
sorry if it was not that good, it was something i made up on the fly