My fave is the Mako3. In star plastic if is quite understable. In champion plastic it starts out fairly straight and beats quickly to a hyzer flip machine. The glide is excellent on both.
I've had some smooth flipping Mako3s in my day but my most common experience with them is "neutral forever" rather than "understable". They're awesome discs as well
Innova does make a disc that fits into that slot. It’s the wombat3, I have both a champion and G star. The champion is good for flipping up and flying straight, and the Gstar is better for turnovers. If you don’t like the wombat3, the skeeter or kite could fit the bill or the infinite discs (made by innova) khonsu is super flippy.
The problem with the KC pro plastic is that its quite hard and pretty slippery, wich is a shame since it flies great. When i started playing 9 years ago i bagged one of those, but in the cold Norwegian weather the disc became unthrowable for me. Its allso the only plastic i have seen players break in two pieces, probably because of these reasons.
The stingray is what I went with for my Innova understable mid. But I did change it out for the uplink. I might try it again. Or I see they have it in star now. Maybe I’ll try that instead of my DX.
They did run some limited edition Star Stingrays, even had some halos for Kat Mertsch. But that's another one that Innova isn't regularly putting out for production. I've never thrown one
Innova Kite, it has the understability you want out of the Panther without being too much like a Rollo. Plus it feels closer to the glide numbers you would expect for a domey disc like a panther.
I'd be interested in trying the Kite. I've always heard they're very flippy, but after hearing the Panther was understable and then experiencing it, I feel like the Kite might be what I'm looking for from Innova here That being said, Star Kites are also not a regularly produced mold
I love my Champion Wombat3 (5 6 -1 0), which looks like it might be more US than your Panther. It has probably the same turn for me as the Panther has for you and the 0 fade really means zero fade.
I need to try a Wombat3. From what I've seen they're more in the "neutral" category (like mako3) instead of "understable", but that is admittedly splitting some hairs
my panther looks nothing like that, mine is almost board flat, still has a rounded rim though. purchased it about 5 years ago probably. my older mold is definitely not that stable. I found it to be pretty straight to slightly understable, and pretty touchy for me, just a little change in my angle and I will get a completely different flight, I have had it in the bag recently to try and fill that unstable mid role, I normally dont have a disc in that spot at all, but I have had some recent luck with the leopard3, couldn't figure out the leopard, so i figured I would see if I could figure this disc out. surprised to see the mold has changed so much.
The mold hasn't changed, it just comes out different because the mold was made for DX plastic. In DX it is quite understable. Innova marketed this originally as having a thin rim for women, children, or others with small hands. Back in the DX only days, they had the best selection of understable mids, with the Stingray, Cobra, and Panther. Unfortunately, in premium plastic, none of these fly anything like they used to.
I have a Champion Panther and it flies more like a 5 4 0 2 disc for me. What you might try is the Manta. The one I have in Star plastic is more like 5 4 -1 1 but is a lot closer to the -2 fade than my Panther. The Manta is a large diameter mid, compared the small diameter Panther. For even less stability, you might try a Skeeter, that's also a small diameter mid. It's less stable than the 5 4 -1 1 flight numbers. But the hand feel might be bad for some. It's even more domey than the Panther. It looks like a faster Dart.
Tursas has been in and out of my bag for a couple years, it was in for a round a couple weeks ago and it's just really great, I'm boycotting it because it's too hard to find flat ones. But I think it needs to go back in
Since Innova has shown they are not averse to continue to produce new molds, they should definitely take another swing at a modern feeling understable (4/5, 5/6, -3, 1) mid and mass produce Stingrays in their premium blends. You can grab a Wombat easily, which fits the flight bill but most people just aren't down with big beads. Hell, all they would need to do is raise the wing of the Rollo and they're there.
Yeah it seems like they've been really liking producing 10+ speed discs in the last few years. I'd be really interested in a modern understable option from Innova, especially with the way the Star plastic came out for the Gorgons 👍
@@ArmoryDiscGolf Agreed. The feel and finish of their newer blends of Star, Halo Star and Champion have been top tier. Since I realized their blends have changed since the pandemic plastic sourcing years, Innova has a significant spot in my bag again. I completely dropped them aside from Wraiths for a few years because the discs they were putting out between '20-'22 felt like straight up dookie man.
You picked the Panther!?!? The obvious choice was the Wambat3 which will flip for you. Admittedly it has a unique hand feel but it's the one you meant to try out. Most ppl just beat up a mako3 or a dx roc for a month or 2 though...
The halo stingray fills this slot for me right now. I’m not a big arm (~350 w/ drivers), and it flips up from a med hyzer and flies dead straight or pans right beautifully on a flat release. It’s almost the exact same flight as an uplink and only beats out the uplink because it looks much cooler. It’s one of the farthest flying 4 speeds you’ll find. The DX is also great when it’s new and is a lot easier to find, but it beats in too quickly.
I just started throwing the skeeter , I have a star one with a bunch of dome it is so perfect for this slot . I think Innova says it’s 5,5,-1,1. I’d say it more like 5,6,-2,.5 so great for this spot
Fun fact: I threw a DX Skeeter about 6 years ago and told myself I would never throw that disc again because I was repulsed by the feel and flight 😬 One of the only discs that I actively dislike
I think the closest thing Innova has for this are the mirage (which i have not tried yet) or the cobra, which is in dx, mostly. The cobra does great things in the woods, if it was released in a g-star version, that would be awesome!
I always bag a champ panther. I haven't tried the new version yet. they are extremely reliable for me, and I'm starting to question if I'm old, after your dad or grandpa comment
Love the series, especially with the taco on top! I’ve tried a panther for a very short time but didn’t like the feel and the flight was too straight/stable for me. I bag a lobster now (sublime) and love it usually
I talk about the Rollo later in the video- it's very different than something like a Tursas or Detour. I haven't thrown the others, largely bc Innova doesn't regularly produce them
Cobra? 4/5/-2/2 I'm 72 yrs old with a noodle arm but even I can turn it over and it is one of the longest discs in my bag. Just try it a see what think.
The Cobra is another option but they only offer it in DX plastic, so it's only an option for a few rounds before it's a Rollo itself haha. I used to love turning Cobras
I can see that. Still don't love the idea of having to take something and beat it up to get to that slot though tbh. I've tried a few (Champ) Leopards and was surprised at their stability
I almost think Innova does this intentionally to encourage people to cycle DX/Star... That said, I had a Panther for like a year and a half when starting out because it felt a little better than a Buzzz/Roc when starting, which funny enough I have a Buzzz in that slot. Panther to me is sort of like a flat top Buzzz SS sort of flyer, weirdly stable and spin dependent
The more I threw it the more I liked it. I was frustrated with it at first bc it was more stable than I wanted, but it was actually really easy to control lines with
Champion plastic seems to fly more stable/overstable than the other plastics. Would he nice if they made the Panther in more than just Champion or DX. I have it in DX and i really like mine, but id way rather have it in a nicer plastic.
Came here to echo Wombat3 being awesome. It’s not super understable but it does turn. And a star one can beat in to a flippy one for you pretty fast :)
The Wombat3 deserves a look- candidly I've never thrown one, but from the reviews I saw online it looked much more like a Mako3 (which can also be beat up, tbf) than something like a Tursas, Meteor, etc.
@@ArmoryDiscGolf for sure it's not a super Flippy boy by any means. However it's what I thought the Mako was going to be. Out of box it'll flip to flat when thrown on Heiser, and will hold a gentle turnover without coming back when thrown flat. At least that was my experience. I throw forehands when I need something to crash right so for me something that will do these more subtle, pushing turnover lines is more valuable for my game.
Yeah that's another good one to point out! We were chatting in the shop the other day and realized that there are VERY few US putter options, period. PA5, Spin, and Fierce are the only ones I find myself recommending
There are so many brands out there producing high quality discs with premium plastic, Innova feels a little...outdated compared to many of them. Even the smaller brands like Kastaplast makes amazing discs using plastic that just feels so good in the hand. Innova just doesnt get me exited, and while that may be personal preferances there is still a reason why i got to this point.
I strongly agree with these older molds. I WILL say, Innova's Halo plastic is still top of the line and I swear the plastic of the new molds they put out seems to feel better than old ones. I think it has to do with the injection process itself- I posit that they're still tweaking that as time goes on
Innova has improved their plastic, but you dont get a second chance to make a first impression. I live in Norway and its pretty cold here most of the year. This is why i prefer grippier plastic like Latitude`s Royal series, Prodigy 400 or Kastaplast. Innova has Gstar and i do have an awesome R-Pro Pig in the bag, but thats it.
The Panther is nothing more than an attempt at a slower leopard. I’m guessing it has a leopard top with a roc bottom. Which is where it ended up on most people throwing list.
Well, all of the comments are saying to throw mako3, wombat3, or the trusty Roc, which according to Innova should be more stable. Sometimes the flight numbers are just "wrong" tbf
I looooved throwing that disc. It never made the "main bag" because it was just too close to my Lobster (weird comp on the surface, I know), but it was always on the verge
I've thrown pfn Panthers and some of them were just as stable as the one in this video. It's just classic Innova consistency. (Also the Wolf is the worst disc Innova makes)
I work at an online disc golf shop, and I can say that I have never felt a nice understable mid from Innova. Wolf, Panther, Mirage, Rollo; they don't feel good
Maybe a lot of you are new 😂 but innovas understable midrange slot is a mako, coyote, seasoned KC pro roc. Get good at throwing these moulds and you’ll be fine
My fave is the Mako3. In star plastic if is quite understable. In champion plastic it starts out fairly straight and beats quickly to a hyzer flip machine. The glide is excellent on both.
I've had some smooth flipping Mako3s in my day but my most common experience with them is "neutral forever" rather than "understable". They're awesome discs as well
Innova does make a disc that fits into that slot. It’s the wombat3, I have both a champion and G star. The champion is good for flipping up and flying straight, and the Gstar is better for turnovers. If you don’t like the wombat3, the skeeter or kite could fit the bill or the infinite discs (made by innova) khonsu is super flippy.
There is nothing like a KC pro roc for this slot. A little beat in and they are exactly what youre looking for
The problem with the KC pro plastic is that its quite hard and pretty slippery, wich is a shame since it flies great. When i started playing 9 years ago i bagged one of those, but in the cold Norwegian weather the disc became unthrowable for me. Its allso the only plastic i have seen players break in two pieces, probably because of these reasons.
My favorite disc to throw!
The stingray is what I went with for my Innova understable mid. But I did change it out for the uplink. I might try it again. Or I see they have it in star now. Maybe I’ll try that instead of my DX.
They did run some limited edition Star Stingrays, even had some halos for Kat Mertsch. But that's another one that Innova isn't regularly putting out for production. I've never thrown one
@@ArmoryDiscGolfa good stingray is the disc you are looking for.
Innova Kite, it has the understability you want out of the Panther without being too much like a Rollo. Plus it feels closer to the glide numbers you would expect for a domey disc like a panther.
I'd be interested in trying the Kite. I've always heard they're very flippy, but after hearing the Panther was understable and then experiencing it, I feel like the Kite might be what I'm looking for from Innova here
That being said, Star Kites are also not a regularly produced mold
@@ArmoryDiscGolf A Star Kite seems to be $40-50 used! I have an F2 that has 3 aces on it. Wouldn't part with it.
Try the Rollo if you want to see an understable mid range disc. If you use it properly you can use it for much more than a roller disc.
Wombat3 and Mako3, both understable mids. Most Innova throwers just have a DX Roc in this slot.
Innova has this slot spot on.
I love my Champion Wombat3 (5 6 -1 0), which looks like it might be more US than your Panther. It has probably the same turn for me as the Panther has for you and the 0 fade really means zero fade.
I need to try a Wombat3. From what I've seen they're more in the "neutral" category (like mako3) instead of "understable", but that is admittedly splitting some hairs
my panther looks nothing like that, mine is almost board flat, still has a rounded rim though. purchased it about 5 years ago probably. my older mold is definitely not that stable. I found it to be pretty straight to slightly understable, and pretty touchy for me, just a little change in my angle and I will get a completely different flight, I have had it in the bag recently to try and fill that unstable mid role, I normally dont have a disc in that spot at all, but I have had some recent luck with the leopard3, couldn't figure out the leopard, so i figured I would see if I could figure this disc out. surprised to see the mold has changed so much.
The mold hasn't changed, it just comes out different because the mold was made for DX plastic. In DX it is quite understable.
Innova marketed this originally as having a thin rim for women, children, or others with small hands.
Back in the DX only days, they had the best selection of understable mids, with the Stingray, Cobra, and Panther. Unfortunately, in premium plastic, none of these fly anything like they used to.
Just found your channel and your videos are great. I like the feedback and edits. That fugazi clip with Dave Dunipace had me rolling 😂
I have a Champion Panther and it flies more like a 5 4 0 2 disc for me. What you might try is the Manta. The one I have in Star plastic is more like 5 4 -1 1 but is a lot closer to the -2 fade than my Panther. The Manta is a large diameter mid, compared the small diameter Panther.
For even less stability, you might try a Skeeter, that's also a small diameter mid. It's less stable than the 5 4 -1 1 flight numbers. But the hand feel might be bad for some. It's even more domey than the Panther. It looks like a faster Dart.
I think that's limited release only right now though, if I remember correctly
Mako3, wombat3, rollo, panther (OG ones), and even mantas and cobras are all fantastic discs. Not to mention a beat up roc
The star vcobra is the best understable disc Innova makes imho
I used to throw Coyotes many years ago and they worked pretty well. Throwing Westside Tursas now for this slot.
I throw coyotes for straight shots and slight turns
Tursas has been in and out of my bag for a couple years, it was in for a round a couple weeks ago and it's just really great, I'm boycotting it because it's too hard to find flat ones. But I think it needs to go back in
Since Innova has shown they are not averse to continue to produce new molds, they should definitely take another swing at a modern feeling understable (4/5, 5/6, -3, 1) mid and mass produce Stingrays in their premium blends. You can grab a Wombat easily, which fits the flight bill but most people just aren't down with big beads. Hell, all they would need to do is raise the wing of the Rollo and they're there.
Yeah it seems like they've been really liking producing 10+ speed discs in the last few years. I'd be really interested in a modern understable option from Innova, especially with the way the Star plastic came out for the Gorgons 👍
@@ArmoryDiscGolf Agreed. The feel and finish of their newer blends of Star, Halo Star and Champion have been top tier. Since I realized their blends have changed since the pandemic plastic sourcing years, Innova has a significant spot in my bag again. I completely dropped them aside from Wraiths for a few years because the discs they were putting out between '20-'22 felt like straight up dookie man.
You picked the Panther!?!?
The obvious choice was the Wambat3 which will flip for you. Admittedly it has a unique hand feel but it's the one you meant to try out. Most ppl just beat up a mako3 or a dx roc for a month or 2 though...
I found a Panther a while back but it did not fly as per flight numbers. I now bag a Mint Discs Lobster for my understable mid slot.
Lobster gang 😎
The halo stingray fills this slot for me right now. I’m not a big arm (~350 w/ drivers), and it flips up from a med hyzer and flies dead straight or pans right beautifully on a flat release. It’s almost the exact same flight as an uplink and only beats out the uplink because it looks much cooler. It’s one of the farthest flying 4 speeds you’ll find. The DX is also great when it’s new and is a lot easier to find, but it beats in too quickly.
I just started throwing the skeeter , I have a star one with a bunch of dome it is so perfect for this slot . I think Innova says it’s 5,5,-1,1. I’d say it more like 5,6,-2,.5 so great for this spot
Fun fact: I threw a DX Skeeter about 6 years ago and told myself I would never throw that disc again because I was repulsed by the feel and flight 😬
One of the only discs that I actively dislike
@@ArmoryDiscGolftry a star or champ one it’s a great disc super underrated
I love my champion panther, but it’s more a short distance fairway driver for me. It definitely flies more like one.
I think the closest thing Innova has for this are the mirage (which i have not tried yet) or the cobra, which is in dx, mostly. The cobra does great things in the woods, if it was released in a g-star version, that would be awesome!
I like the Cobra, but the "only in DX" thing makes it a hard sell. It's also a wide mid, which I don't prefer
I agree and I've been saying it for a while. They have multiple decent understable midranges, but not any that really stand out.
I always bag a champ panther. I haven't tried the new version yet. they are extremely reliable for me, and I'm starting to question if I'm old, after your dad or grandpa comment
Love the series, especially with the taco on top! I’ve tried a panther for a very short time but didn’t like the feel and the flight was too straight/stable for me. I bag a lobster now (sublime) and love it usually
what about the new Rollo, coming in at the numbers 5 6 -4 1. or the OG stingray and wolf.
I talk about the Rollo later in the video- it's very different than something like a Tursas or Detour. I haven't thrown the others, largely bc Innova doesn't regularly produce them
Cobra? 4/5/-2/2
I'm 72 yrs old with a noodle arm but even I can turn it over and it is one of the longest discs in my bag. Just try it a see what think.
My last was supposed to say, "Just try it and see what you think".
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. 😮
The Cobra is another option but they only offer it in DX plastic, so it's only an option for a few rounds before it's a Rollo itself haha. I used to love turning Cobras
@@ArmoryDiscGolf Not according to Infinite Discs. You want a Star one, they're out there just in limited numbers.
I used to love my panther. Honestly a seasoned leopard can fill that slot. I know it’s technically a fairway but it works.
I can see that. Still don't love the idea of having to take something and beat it up to get to that slot though tbh. I've tried a few (Champ) Leopards and was surprised at their stability
Oh, or the Cobra... Great disc
Innova has the kite, manta, stingray, and wolf in this slot. And don’t sleep on a beat in DX leopard….a great under stable disc!
I almost think Innova does this intentionally to encourage people to cycle DX/Star... That said, I had a Panther for like a year and a half when starting out because it felt a little better than a Buzzz/Roc when starting, which funny enough I have a Buzzz in that slot. Panther to me is sort of like a flat top Buzzz SS sort of flyer, weirdly stable and spin dependent
For understable mid from Innova I bag the Panther. It is lightweight and flippy. Just right.
An old one or a new one?
I like the panther as straight flier, Innova should re flight number it.
The more I threw it the more I liked it. I was frustrated with it at first bc it was more stable than I wanted, but it was actually really easy to control lines with
Champion plastic seems to fly more stable/overstable than the other plastics. Would he nice if they made the Panther in more than just Champion or DX. I have it in DX and i really like mine, but id way rather have it in a nicer plastic.
Yeah DX plastic is typically a no go for me unless I'm just goofing around with something
Well they did come out with the Rollo- hard to complain it too beefy.
Came here to echo Wombat3 being awesome. It’s not super understable but it does turn. And a star one can beat in to a flippy one for you pretty fast :)
The Wombat3 deserves a look- candidly I've never thrown one, but from the reviews I saw online it looked much more like a Mako3 (which can also be beat up, tbf) than something like a Tursas, Meteor, etc.
@@ArmoryDiscGolf for sure it's not a super Flippy boy by any means. However it's what I thought the Mako was going to be. Out of box it'll flip to flat when thrown on Heiser, and will hold a gentle turnover without coming back when thrown flat. At least that was my experience. I throw forehands when I need something to crash right so for me something that will do these more subtle, pushing turnover lines is more valuable for my game.
What about the Manta? Innova's a huge company. Surely they don't just have one understable mid, right?
No, they have several options. But very few are readily available and the Panther is what they've been pumping out recently
When you said worst slot i. Innova's line up. My immediate guess was understable putter. The disc that fills that slot is a 400 and 500 PA5
Yeah that's another good one to point out! We were chatting in the shop the other day and realized that there are VERY few US putter options, period. PA5, Spin, and Fierce are the only ones I find myself recommending
@@ArmoryDiscGolf Don't forget Deputy, the original Fierce.
Mirage, it's the only one they need...
Thank me later boys!
@@drewvonawesome8851 too bad they don't make it in premium plastic. Well I do have a lucid glow one that I snagged at a local shop.
Foxbat... Similar to Wombat3, but even less stable... I wish they would bring that one back
There are so many brands out there producing high quality discs with premium plastic, Innova feels a little...outdated compared to many of them. Even the smaller brands like Kastaplast makes amazing discs using plastic that just feels so good in the hand. Innova just doesnt get me exited, and while that may be personal preferances there is still a reason why i got to this point.
I strongly agree with these older molds. I WILL say, Innova's Halo plastic is still top of the line and I swear the plastic of the new molds they put out seems to feel better than old ones. I think it has to do with the injection process itself- I posit that they're still tweaking that as time goes on
Innova has improved their plastic, but you dont get a second chance to make a first impression. I live in Norway and its pretty cold here most of the year. This is why i prefer grippier plastic like Latitude`s Royal series, Prodigy 400 or Kastaplast. Innova has Gstar and i do have an awesome R-Pro Pig in the bag, but thats it.
The Panther is nothing more than an attempt at a slower leopard. I’m guessing it has a leopard top with a roc bottom. Which is where it ended up on most people throwing list.
haha well done 👌
Innova’s flight numbers are only n reference to their other discs in that category. Not other manufacturers.
Well, all of the comments are saying to throw mako3, wombat3, or the trusty Roc, which according to Innova should be more stable. Sometimes the flight numbers are just "wrong" tbf
I have a pretty understable mako, flys so weird
Test a wombat3 in halo, champ & star
Midnight Prowl 2 is the money disc for this spot.
I looooved throwing that disc. It never made the "main bag" because it was just too close to my Lobster (weird comp on the surface, I know), but it was always on the verge
I've thrown pfn Panthers and some of them were just as stable as the one in this video. It's just classic Innova consistency.
(Also the Wolf is the worst disc Innova makes)
Mako3 or Wombat3 are both more flippy than the panther
Apparently so haha. This was my first experience with the panther
No love for the Innova kite? I hear the Wombat 3 but the kite is way more understable
I don't think Innova offers the Kite rn outside of directly from their pro shop. I've never even held one 🤷♂️
Made it to hole 2, still didn't tell us what disc you are throwning. I'm out
Panther is awesome.
wombat3, mako3, cobra
DX Stingray
The wolf is crazy understable
It seems like Innova likes very straight or VERY understable mids, but that "Detour" slot is tricky for them haha
Do a detour vs lobster video please
The two best discs in that slot rn 💪
Wombat3 bro.
My older panther is totally different from yours
I think the retool or mold degradation or whatever happened to them made them different because I've heard the older ones were less stable
@ArmoryDiscGolf if you need an old one I'm in east Texas, and I can make it happen. Class of 07 , WHOOP!
So, they made the Panther worse now?
Ahem. Wombat3.
Origin is elite in the understable midrange category.
Hard agree. It's always been on the cusp of making the bag- the Lobster barely has it edged for now (for me)
@@ArmoryDiscGolf I tried a few throws with the Lobster and it was awesome. I used to have a love/hate with the Wombat but it was mostly hate.
I work at an online disc golf shop, and I can say that I have never felt a nice understable mid from Innova. Wolf, Panther, Mirage, Rollo; they don't feel good
Yeah they're all old school mids with wonky hand feel haha
Maybe a lot of you are new 😂 but innovas understable midrange slot is a mako, coyote, seasoned KC pro roc. Get good at throwing these moulds and you’ll be fine