It is a heat pump system, but one that also capitalizes on the huge energy potential of direct sunlight in addition to ambient heat in the air - very clever fellas, very clever.
This is known as Thermodynamic panels. Invented 40 years ago in Portugal. The word "Solar" was added to the title a couple of years ago by the industry because the public did not understand "Thermodynamic" but did understand "Solar". A firm in Essex imported the box about 8-9 years and tweaked it for the British market. Sadly they disappeared. But a chap in Wigan has started supplying and fitting them.
Hi flatroofer, thanks for your comments. You are quite right. Technically, Solar means "energy from the sun", but thermodynamic panel, or heat collector would also be good descriptions. I hope your chap in Wigan does well.
a passive solar heater provides hot water almost the whole year without electricity, meaning for free. This one consumes electricity and is a heat pump, which is very ineficient when outside temperature is below 5C or 40F. It works in the South where in the winter temperature rarely fall under 5C.
had that same idea 30 years ago. Works like propane refrigerator but instead of a flame to create heat and pressure it uses the sun. If they made it reversible it could be used for AC
It’d be great for me if only i could get workmen to do the rest of my house before autumn! I really cant stand another winter here, getting pneumonia in the house! England sucks for decent workmen who want to help - without ripping you off - and straight away! I’m existing, not living! If only i could just go to the right place abroad and live! Noone gives an idea of cost, but I do know that for just solar panels, you never seem to get a payment back from the grid, or a tiny one! And .... surely the question we should be asking, is will any part of it let you down in Extremes of high heat, or Extremes of cold.
Hi Dean, if you are in New Zealand, we can help you. www.taec.co.nz, email info@taec.co.nz. If you are overseas, please contact the manufacturer. www.energie.pt/en
@@thinleydem7063 Hi, the manufacturer is in Portugal. Check out their website www.energie.pt. They will help or put you in touch with someone close to you. all the best.
I have some questions for the company or others in a similar latitude. I live in California on the 38 degrees. 1. Does one need a 240 V backup based on the efficiency of this system? 2. Is the controller programmable for maximizing power reduction prices? 3. Anyone measure the noise level of the compressor? Thanks in advance!
You are quite right. The solar panel is the evaporator, and the hotter it gets the more efficient the system gets. Another way of looking at it, is that your taking the heat generated in the panel and transferring into the hot water
Hi Lanka, we are in New Zealand so do not have information on where the closest distributor will be to you. Please contact the manufacturers who are based in Portugal. www.energie.pt/en. all the best
Hi Norm, Energie, the Portuguese manufacturers patented the technology over 30 years ago. They now have a huge manufacturing plant and systems installed all around the world.
My school installed a system like this in 2008, in Portugal, we are not famous for spending money in high tech. I always wondered why the panels had ice in the morning now I know. So this is not a solar powered heater, but a more eficcient way of using electricity to heat water, it would be nice to watch how mutch more efficient it is versus a tradicional resistor
It is not more efficient than a resistor element. It just cost more. If you use the panel for cooling down inside of a building like a heat pump, only then is it more efficient.
How much electricity does it use for how much output? This sounds like a decent concept, some solar energy added in to make the heat pump more efficient. But how does it compare to a heat pump without the panel? Heat pumps are a good idea and this one is certainly going to be more effective then an air source heat pump and cheaper to install then a ground based one. I think a lake/ocean based heat pump is better then this though.
Hi, it depends what country you are in. We are based in New Zealand; installed systems are around $10k NZ with a pay back for a family of 4 in around 4-5 years. If you are outside NZ, please contact the manufacturer, Energie for your closest contact. www.energie.pt
Show me a cost break down in comparison to the conventional water heater, how does your system save me money and want is the up front cost and can it pay back it's self in two years
You guys need to give people the critical information which is the coefficient of performance at a few different temperatures including 5°F and the cost. Power requirements etc. if you made this so it could take 48v Dc power it would be awesome for off grid living. People would use it to heat their whole home assuming you could compete with Mitsubishi mini splits.
We can certainly give you cop values, although this does depend on the amount of sunshine, the water temperature and the ambient temperature. Contact us for more details. The power consumption is around 400w. A DC compressor is a great idea!
I would suggest more a couple more PV panels and a battery bank and grid connection if the sun is not show up for a couple of days so you can boil water with you own made electricity 90% of the time.
What you need is the black panel to be in your loft in the the summer and steal the heat to put in your hot water cylinder but a fridge which wants to remove the heat and make it cold inside, simples!
So what if it's a heat pump? Seen anyone else think to put a heat pump on a roof to maximise efficiency? I didn't think so. Ground sourced heat pump and air sourced heat pump are what's commonly available. It doesn't take a genius to think of it but it takes initiative to make it happen ... and that's what they've done here which is great.
Hi Theolyn, thanks for you supportive reply. With heat pumps its the temperature of the evaporator that make it more efficient. What I think is amazing is that it got patented by Energie in 1981, so that's nearly 40 years ago!
Yes, it is a solar enhanced air to water heat pump, giving a 30% increased performance on traditional "old fashioned" solar hot water systems and ordinary air to water heat pumps. It is 'simply superior'
+mtriet85 Except they have taken the evaporator from the heat pump and plumbed it up to the roof to increase SolAir gain. Would be interesting to see what improvements in COP you get over a 24 hour period against the additional plumbing and risk of pressurised gas plumbed over your house.
Good idea but this is well known device called air HEAT PUMP. It cannot be evaluated as a fraud, it collects suns heat and add heat to the -20 deg refrigerant.
It is a Solar enhanced air to water heat pump. Taking the best of the traditional solar technology without putting weight on your roof, freezing or boiling and taking the best of the air to water heat pump technology without having large noisy fans to maintain. It is like your fridge in reverse, the 390watt compressor comes on only when it needs to, providing hot water at minimum cost.
Scaled up fridge in reverse. quite a good principle "Air" source heat pump with incidental solar contribution. With no forced air movement over the panels there will b - so key question is overall CoP for Heat pump in typical conditions.
Could solar panels be placed on top of the energie panels? They benefit from cooling, I wonder if a hybrid panel could generate electricity and heat water with a single panel?
It's basically a heat pump where there is no need for the condenser's fan as the the condenser itself looks like a solar panel but it's not a solar water hater.
this is basically a heat pump water tank. But it takes its heat from the sun instead of the air as normal heatpumptanks. I wonder if it is the same efficiancy as air heat pump tank or better then those? Air heat pump tanks also provide raidiant floor heating and heated FTX systems btw.
So its a heat pump mixed with solar energy collector, it requires electricity for the compressor. You you don't need it, simply connect solar water heating boiler and use solar heat during the day and then connect a heat pump boiler right after. You'll get already preheated water from the sun and then heat it to the right temperture as water comes from the first reservuar and gettin cold. Connect between the two boilers using irreversable valve, so water will come only from solar boiler to heat pump and not vice versa.
Well weirdly he showed an image of evacuated tubes which can operate down to -10C so perfectly fine for all of Australia and most of NZ. Also they only put about 5 litres of water on the roof at any one time per manifold so it isn’t adding a lot of extra weight to your roof. And he neglected to add how many kWhs these things use during an average year to heat say a 350l tank which I’d say is much more common than 280l. All that stuff is relevant if you are going to compare a heat pump to evacuated tubes.
"They can boil" - no, they can't. Because it is a pressurised system and there is a safety valve. "They can freeze" - no, they can't. They have glycol in the system. "They don't work when the sun isn't out" yes, they do. Albeit at a lot lower efficiency, it still gives the tank a good head start for gas to take over. "They put heavy water on your roof" - and? put it on a wall.
this is not necessarily solar, its just a heat pump, where are the technical specifications? what is the refrigerant being used? and what are the operating pressures for both the low, and high pressure side of the system? what is the expansion device? TXV? EXV? what is the tonnage capacity? its really just a very unique evaporator on your roof.
I agree someone should make a dual element one half mains power one half direct PV can’t believe it’s not out there ,if it is I need to know what’s app 0035799148661
Hi Ethan It uses 134a, which is classed as a non-ozone depleting gas. This is commonly used in heat pumps and car air conditioning. It is a one shot system and should never need to be regassed.
@@thealternativeenergycompan9065 That's a bit of a stretch considering most of your thermal conductivity is with the air. Painting it black might help retain some radiation from the sun but I'm going to bet money that if you did the math on how much energy is heating the system from the sun versus ambient air, its going to be mostly ambient air unless the UV index is high.
What is the cost also I'm not bothered about hot water in summer.I want a central heating system in winter to run from this.No good spending thousands for the sake of it.
Hi my name is Jeff.A chap came to our house a few weeks ago.Somthing about replacing my boiler for a modern one scheme.When we got down to the cost of a simple combination boiler it was £3,500 pounds.Oh and a twelve year quarantee.I smiled and asked him to leave through the backdoor.Another Jeff.
This system would be perfect except that it is not UL-listed in the USA and, therefore not approved for installation where permits are required. I know because I bought one and can't get the inspector to sign off on the installation because it's not certified by UL.
I am working of a client that uses your system. Is it possible to fasten photovoltaic cells on top of your panels? Have any of your client used your system in a photovoltaic and thermal configuration?
Hi John, the Energie system has an intelligent controller which works with PV systems thus maximising the free energy when the sun is out. Where are you based? Feel free to contact us direct at info@thealternativeenergycompany.co.nz
One question - Geoff if a panel was placed indoors at say 20 degrees c, would this work better than placing out in the elements? and or why is this not done? cheers
Similar to calling a hybrid car an electric car, you call a heat pump a solar hot water system. Nothing wrong with heat pumps - but call it a (solar augmented) heat pump, not a solar hot water system. The energy comes from the grid, driving the compressor, while the heat pump principle is like adding a gearbox to a car.
I am renovating my house and was wondering what do I need to connect the panel to the water heater. I would like to future proof now before I close up the walls. Thanks. I will only be using it for normal water heater usage.
We use standard copper pair-coil piping between the panel and the cylinder, so you could always fit this in advance. You can contact us from www.taec.co.nz for more information
In some solar boilers , auxiliary electric heater is installed to assist during cloudy days , and power from grid is consumed , here in this case power from grid used to compress gas and use the heat of the gas to heat the boiler water , I think , for an economic point of view the compressor should be not exceed 250 wats , for domestic application .
Had me going there for a min., until he said -10c. Heck around here, you only need one when it gets to -10c so NFG. From what I can see its just a fancy heat pump
I'm not sure if heat pump if the most efficient when you use it to gain heat from air. I know heat pumps that are burried in ground. Wet ground is much better conductor than air. What's the efficiency of this pump?
They should add a solar electric panel in the mix so that during the day, it's producing electricity to off set the cost of running the pump. If there's not enough power to run it, it could switch to power from the grid. Question: How does it work at night??? Does the refrigerant stay warm all night long? I did not get that part?
Yes, the Energie thermodynamic solar system has an intelligent switch which utilises PV power when working. The 390watt compressor comes on and off like your fridge so only works some of the time
At first I thought that this was just a heat pump, but I think that this is more and in some regards less. Heat pumps extract heat from the outside air. Standard heat pumps do not benefit directly from solar radiation. This system's panel extracts heat from both air and solar radiation. The claim that it works at night is probably based on it being a heat pump. However, I would guess that that the systems's panel is not as efficient for extracting heat from the air as a standard heat pump with it's finned heat exchanger and cooling fan. Combining the best of solar and a heat exchanger design would be be hot.
The system stops working between 263oK and 268oK depending on panel positioning and its performance begins to drop off after about 273oK. The only way to overcome this is to turn the system to Auto. The system works on temperature differential and in Auto mode if the compressor is unable to start, because the outside temperature is to cold, the system automatically switches on the small highly efficient ceramic electric heater in the cylinder. The heater uses 1.5 kW when running and it raises the temperature of the water in the cylinder. Every 20 minutes the compressor tries to restart and once the temperature of the water has been raised to, normally, about 20° C to 25° C the temperature differential between the outside air temperature and the temperature of the water in the cylinder will have been lowered enough for the compressor to take over heating the water and the electric heater is switched off.
Thanks for the explanation :-) Btw: ever considered using an additional indoor panel to act as air conditioning support in summer? I imagine all it needs are some radiator finns, a fan and a valve with temperature switch =)
Hi, we are based in New Zealand, if you are please email us. Or if you are somewhere else in the world, please contact Energie, the manufacturers for a contact closer to you. www.energie.pt/en
Hi, the compressor uses 390watts when it is running. (instead of an electric cylinder with a 3000watt element) It does have smart PV capabilities so can run on solar power.
Hi Richard. The answer is yes and yes, but we would want to know more details. We have no record of your name in our customer database. Can you please contact us directly and we can discuss this further.
The systems do not correlate.The compressor, compresses the gas to a higher Density AND Energy level (heat ---> joules). A gas like CO2 (R-744) can have significant benefits. Basically I am saying it depends on the refrigerant as to the efficiency. The compressor itself is also generating heat. The return line, from say outside, will still be at a low temp relative to the compressor. So, by using the gas from the return line to cool the motor, you are maximizing the compressors efficiency (not sure if that is what they are doing in this product they are hawking) to compress the gas. So as many have stated this is a heat pump. The difference is the refrigerant is chosen to make the intended use more efficient. In a fluid pump, the flow through the system does little to boost the potential energy of the system in terms of heat. It mainly increases the kinetic energy as it moves heat from one place to another (as per this discussion regarding the original post). The use of glycol is counterproductive for a heating concern. Glycol is use to lower the freezing point and increase the boiling point of water. The reason you don't use straight "anti-freeze" in your car is that it does not transport as much heat away from the engine as water. Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about 1/2 that of water. You should use as little as you need to stop the fluid from freezing and boiling. That is why it is sold as a 50% solution, because you'd never want to use 100% in your car. Think of it as more of an insulator.
www.ohio.edu/mechanical/thermo/Applied/Chapt.7_11/Chapter9.html ... may help you ... look half way down to A Heat Pump System using Carbon Dioxide Refrigerant (R744).
@@ejrupp9555 this is just a regular Refrigeration system they are selling but the condenser is embedded inside the water tank to heat up the water. Their design might be energy efficient but the amount of energy used to heat up the water intimately depends of how much water they are using and how hot they want their water to be. People here are confused they think this thing uses solar to heat up the water if people really want that concept just get a water tank and leave it outside in the sun all day and let the water absorb the heat from the sun and there you have it free hot water. I wonder what type of compressor they use if it's an inverter type with a dc motor then yes it would use very little energy to operate and it should save people money
@@blasgonzalez1580 Yup refrigeration in reverse (heat pump), with all the mechanical and electrical components shielded by the water supply so that all electrical resistance is transferred to the water supply. The idea is not bad ... for market demographics that are seasonally cold. Basically saying it's not the answer for the vast majority of viewers because it's cost & space inefficient compared to other solutions. Is an idea that doesn't take a look at the big picture on average.
Hi Sonny, where are you based? We can provide prices for New Zealand installed, the smallest thermodynamic cylinder system we stock is 200L, if you are in NZ please email us on info@taec.co.nz, if you are living somewhere else, please email tiagocosta@energie.pt for your closest contact.
Yes, a perfect solution. The Energie thermodynamic system does have a smart PV controller to maximise power from your PV panels making the hot water free.
I am planning a similar system, using a normal split air conditioner, install the indoor unit in in the attic where it is always hotter than the room or outdoor. In the outdoor unit, break the liquid line between the compressor and reversing valve, divert it to a plate heat exchange then back to the reversing valve. Cold water circulate through the heat exchange and heat up.
Not a solar water heater per se, though it does take big advantage of incident solar power striking the panel surface. This is a solar-augmented heat pump water heating system.
I've done a lot of research on this technology and to be off grid 100% it's simply not possible and it's not convenient I've done some experiments at home with off grid Concepts and they don't work 100% technology simply is just not there yet but this type of technology is a major step forward by accepting this technology in your home you're supporting the industry with that support will come Revenue and eventually with our research and development technology will improve our attitude as human beings needs to change and become more accepting I'm sure when the invented the car there's a lot of people who were very loyal to horse and buggy where does your loyalty stand
Hi I live in Wales, who is your UK contact? as I am interested in this system because of the low energy requirements, however I don't know how long it takes to heat a tank of water, we aim to have a 300L tank, how long would it take to heat the water to say 40c at 0c outside temp, and without any assistance from an immersion heat? plus I have notice that despite loft insulations the temperature gets no lower than 10c when its 0c outside, so would it not be prudent to install your system in the loft space?, and make use of this heat loss, especially as in the summer it gets up 40c. I would prefer this approach because of the appearance of this panel on the outside wall is cosmetically undesirable, we already have solar panels make the house look naff.
A single panel cylinder system uses a 390 watt compressor which comes on and off again like your fridge. For a family of 4, around $14-20NZ a month to heat all your hot water, a saving of up to 85%. A system for a family of four in NZ is around $8,000NZ
Regarding the system, so many of the comments are repeated. if you do not understand the dynamics of the system it is simple, go and look for other independent positions on it, and others for comparison. That's not hard is it? as i understand it the addition of the roof panel adds more exposure from all weather conditions (that are themselves warmer than the refrigerant in the panel), thus creating additional warming of the gas (over that of a standard heat pump) and thereby creating a greater temperature differential which in turn reduces the systems reliance on the use of the compressor to compress and increase the heat for exchange, thereby reducing the cost to run. Having low, or zero maintenance certainly sounds beneficial and if this is akin to a refrigerator then this sounds plausible to me. i know of three people with this system and all seem very happy with it. Whilst it may be more expensive we all have choices and can choose to use another/or cheaper system, so it comes down to us doing our own research, and being able to compare our budget and environmental conditions to determine what is acceptable to each of us. cheers
That is correct, the system uses a 390w compressor which enables it to work day and night unlike old fashioned solar water heaters which will not heat your water if the weather is bad.
It would depend on what you were looking at and which country you live in. We can help you if you are based in New Zealand. Otherwise please contact energie.pt for your nearest supplier. Best wishes.
It is a heat pump system, but one that also capitalizes on the huge energy potential of direct sunlight in addition to ambient heat in the air - very clever fellas, very clever.
This is known as Thermodynamic panels. Invented 40 years ago in Portugal. The word "Solar" was added to the title a couple of years ago by the industry because the public did not understand "Thermodynamic" but did understand "Solar". A firm in Essex imported the box about 8-9 years and tweaked it for the British market. Sadly they disappeared. But a chap in Wigan has started supplying and fitting them.
Hi flatroofer, thanks for your comments. You are quite right. Technically, Solar means "energy from the sun", but thermodynamic panel, or heat collector would also be good descriptions. I hope your chap in Wigan does well.
I trust you do as well. You have a good system there.@@thealternativeenergycompan9065
a passive solar heater provides hot water almost the whole year without electricity, meaning for free. This one consumes electricity and is a heat pump, which is very ineficient when outside temperature is below 5C or 40F. It works in the South where in the winter temperature rarely fall under 5C.
This thermal dynamic system is awesome! We need you in the UK!
LVP Renewables are your UK supplier. Check out www.lvprenewables.ie/
had that same idea 30 years ago. Works like propane refrigerator but instead of a flame to create heat and pressure it uses the sun. If they made it reversible it could be used for AC
How much does it cost to run the condenser?
Prob be same cost as just running immersion heater without the cost of the equipment ??
I wish you were in USA. I have a tiny house and this would be perfect!
Hi, Check with the manufacturer Energie; www.energie.pt They will be able to help you.
this system works on temp differencial so any temp above -21 will create thermo dynamics
It’d be great for me if only i could get workmen to do the rest of my house before autumn! I really cant stand another winter here, getting pneumonia in the house! England sucks for decent workmen who want to help - without ripping you off - and straight away! I’m existing, not living! If only i could just go to the right place abroad and live!
Noone gives an idea of cost, but I do know that for just solar panels, you never seem to get a payment back from the grid, or a tiny one!
And .... surely the question we should be asking, is will any part of it let you down in Extremes of high heat, or Extremes of cold.
Can you tell me from where i get electricity to run the compressor?.
How can I find out about purchase or installation ?
Hi Dean, if you are in New Zealand, we can help you. www.taec.co.nz, email info@taec.co.nz. If you are overseas, please contact the manufacturer. www.energie.pt/en
Where are you from? Is there an update on your product? This one is 7yrs ago
Hi, we are based in Mapua, New Zealand, but have installed based around New Zealand. Yes, there are updated models available.
@@thealternativeenergycompan9065 how can I get information on your new products. I am enquiring from Bhutan
@@thinleydem7063 Hi, the manufacturer is in Portugal. Check out their website www.energie.pt. They will help or put you in touch with someone close to you. all the best.
I have some questions for the company or others in a similar latitude. I live in California on the 38 degrees.
1. Does one need a 240 V backup based on the efficiency of this system?
2. Is the controller programmable for maximizing power reduction prices?
3. Anyone measure the noise level of the compressor?
Thanks in advance!
you are reversing the refrigerator right!? so using the evaporator to be heated and so on
You are quite right. The solar panel is the evaporator, and the hotter it gets the more efficient the system gets.
Another way of looking at it, is that your taking the heat generated in the panel and transferring into the hot water
Can I buy in the US ?
Hi Lanka, we are in New Zealand so do not have information on where the closest distributor will be to you. Please contact the manufacturers who are based in Portugal. www.energie.pt/en. all the best
I read about a system over 10 years before this video was published.
They used reverse refrigeration to heat water.
Hi Norm, Energie, the Portuguese manufacturers patented the technology over 30 years ago. They now have a huge manufacturing plant and systems installed all around the world.
This looks interesting - Anything like this available in the UK. please?
www.lvprenewables.ie/ is your UK supplier
Yes a firm in Wigan GB.
ok where can I order a unit in Australia?
My school installed a system like this in 2008, in Portugal, we are not famous for spending money in high tech. I always wondered why the panels had ice in the morning now I know.
So this is not a solar powered heater, but a more eficcient way of using electricity to heat water, it would be nice to watch how mutch more efficient it is versus a tradicional resistor
Our Energie systems come from Portugal, they will be able to help you. energie.pt
It is not more efficient than a resistor element. It just cost more. If you use the panel for cooling down inside of a building like a heat pump, only then is it more efficient.
How can I get access to system here in USA ?
Hi, check out the manufacturers website, they will be able to put you in touch with someone closer to you. www.energie.pt.
How much electricity does it use for how much output? This sounds like a decent concept, some solar energy added in to make the heat pump more efficient. But how does it compare to a heat pump without the panel?
Heat pumps are a good idea and this one is certainly going to be more effective then an air source heat pump and cheaper to install then a ground based one. I think a lake/ocean based heat pump is better then this though.
I’m in the uk how much to send it here
www.lvprenewables.ie/ LVP Renewables are the UK distributor.
It's just a reversed refrigerator. You could use that giant panel to cool down your room in the summer. But it should be adjusted, though.
a heat pump yes
What price are these?
Hi, it depends what country you are in. We are based in New Zealand; installed systems are around $10k NZ with a pay back for a family of 4 in around 4-5 years. If you are outside NZ, please contact the manufacturer, Energie for your closest contact. www.energie.pt
Show me a cost break down in comparison to the conventional water heater, how does your system save me money and want is the up front cost and can it pay back it's self in two years
No show. Fact is, the amount of energy to heat water stay the same, no matter what system you use.
You guys need to give people the critical information which is the coefficient of performance at a few different temperatures including 5°F and the cost. Power requirements etc. if you made this so it could take 48v Dc power it would be awesome for off grid living. People would use it to heat their whole home assuming you could compete with Mitsubishi mini splits.
We can certainly give you cop values, although this does depend on the amount of sunshine, the water temperature and the ambient temperature. Contact us for more details. The power consumption is around 400w. A DC compressor is a great idea!
I would suggest more a couple more PV panels and a battery bank and grid connection if the sun is not show up for a couple of days so you can boil water with you own made electricity 90% of the time.
What you need is the black panel to be in your loft in the the summer and steal the heat to put in your hot water cylinder but a fridge which wants to remove the heat and make it cold inside, simples!
Could I purchase this and have it mailed to Seattle Wa?
Hi Tim, the manufacturer, Energie, will be able to tell you who your closest supplier is. www.energie.pt/en Best wishes, it is a stand out system.
How much does it cost? Do you service in Australia?
what about if you live in a country that has winters of minus 25c ??
Hi, -25°C might be pushing it a bit, but it does have a back up electrical element. We do have systems that work down to -15°C.
What have it of SOLAR???
So what if it's a heat pump? Seen anyone else think to put a heat pump on a roof to maximise efficiency? I didn't think so. Ground sourced heat pump and air sourced heat pump are what's commonly available. It doesn't take a genius to think of it but it takes initiative to make it happen ... and that's what they've done here which is great.
Hi Theolyn, thanks for you supportive reply. With heat pumps its the temperature of the evaporator that make it more efficient. What I think is amazing is that it got patented by Energie in 1981, so that's nearly 40 years ago!
So it's really just a solar assisted heat pump?
Yes, it is a solar enhanced air to water heat pump, giving a 30% increased performance on traditional "old fashioned" solar hot water systems and ordinary air to water heat pumps. It is 'simply superior'
So it’s a heat pump system. You should include a way to pull heat from the HVAC system in summer instead of dumping that heat outside.
It sounds very similar to a heat pump system doesn't it?
Or a fridge in reverse
+mtriet85 Except they have taken the evaporator from the heat pump and plumbed it up to the roof to increase SolAir gain. Would be interesting to see what improvements in COP you get over a 24 hour period against the additional plumbing and risk of pressurised gas plumbed over your house.
IT IS A heat pump system. FRAUD. NO SOLAR HERE
Good idea but this is well known device called air HEAT PUMP. It cannot be evaluated as a fraud, it collects suns heat and add heat to the -20 deg refrigerant.
It is a Solar enhanced air to water heat pump. Taking the best of the traditional solar technology without putting weight on your roof, freezing or boiling and taking the best of the air to water heat pump technology without having large noisy fans to maintain. It is like your fridge in reverse, the 390watt compressor comes on only when it needs to, providing hot water at minimum cost.
Scaled up fridge in reverse. quite a good principle "Air" source heat pump with incidental solar contribution. With no forced air movement over the panels there will b - so key question is overall CoP for Heat pump in typical conditions.
Could solar panels be placed on top of the energie panels? They benefit from cooling, I wonder if a hybrid panel could generate electricity and heat water with a single panel?
That is actually a very good idea, combine a PV panel with a evaporator of a heat pump!
My parents have it set up like that
Awesome..... Are you selling those systems also?
It's basically a heat pump where there is no need for the condenser's fan as the the condenser itself looks like a solar panel but it's not a solar water hater.
The thermodynamic system is a "solar enhanced" air to water heat pump, giving up to 35% better performance then an ordinary air to water heat pump.
Hi
I am domestic dhw designer. Can I work with you?
HI, sure, but we only supply and install these systems in New Zealand. We are welcome to contact the supplier Energie, in Portugal.
Finally some one put together a system that makes sense. BRAVO!
this is basically a heat pump water tank.
But it takes its heat from the sun instead of the air as normal heatpumptanks.
I wonder if it is the same efficiancy as air heat pump tank or better then those?
Air heat pump tanks also provide raidiant floor heating and heated FTX systems btw.
How can this system be purchased in Australia, and what is the cost?
So its a heat pump mixed with solar energy collector, it requires electricity for the compressor. You you don't need it, simply connect solar water heating boiler and use solar heat during the day and then connect a heat pump boiler right after. You'll get already preheated water from the sun and then heat it to the right temperture as water comes from the first reservuar and gettin cold. Connect between the two boilers using irreversable valve, so water will come only from solar boiler to heat pump and not vice versa.
can you elaborate? Do you have more info?
Where can I find this in the USA? I need this now!!!
Hi, please contact Energie www.energie.pt/en or email tiagocosta@energie.pt. Tiago will be able to put you in touch with a distributor in the USA.
I need to think about this one
Inverted fridge. I like it, hardly direct solar though
it's called a heat pump
Well weirdly he showed an image of evacuated tubes which can operate down to -10C so perfectly fine for all of Australia and most of NZ. Also they only put about 5 litres of water on the roof at any one time per manifold so it isn’t adding a lot of extra weight to your roof. And he neglected to add how many kWhs these things use during an average year to heat say a 350l tank which I’d say is much more common than 280l. All that stuff is relevant if you are going to compare a heat pump to evacuated tubes.
"They can boil" - no, they can't. Because it is a pressurised system and there is a safety valve.
"They can freeze" - no, they can't. They have glycol in the system.
"They don't work when the sun isn't out" yes, they do. Albeit at a lot lower efficiency, it still gives the tank a good head start for gas to take over.
"They put heavy water on your roof" - and? put it on a wall.
this is not necessarily solar, its just a heat pump, where are the technical specifications? what is the refrigerant being used? and what are the operating pressures for both the low, and high pressure side of the system? what is the expansion device? TXV? EXV? what is the tonnage capacity? its really just a very unique evaporator on your roof.
With the compressor inside instead of outside.
Direct PV to element is the only way to go.
why?
I agree someone should make a dual element one half mains power one half direct PV can’t believe it’s not out there ,if it is I need to know what’s app 0035799148661
What kind of gases do you use for your refrigerant? If you're using polluting HFCs do you have a plan to transition to a different gas?
Hi Ethan
It uses 134a, which is classed as a non-ozone depleting gas. This is commonly used in heat pumps and car air conditioning. It is a one shot system and should never need to be regassed.
This is the way forward 🥰👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽🤓✨
This isn't solar at all. its a heat pump with a passive radiator.
By definition, solar means "energy from the sun" It would be more accurate to say solar evaporator.
@@thealternativeenergycompan9065 That's a bit of a stretch considering most of your thermal conductivity is with the air. Painting it black might help retain some radiation from the sun but I'm going to bet money that if you did the math on how much energy is heating the system from the sun versus ambient air, its going to be mostly ambient air unless the UV index is high.
What is the cost also I'm not bothered about hot water in summer.I want a central heating system in winter to run from this.No good spending thousands for the sake of it.
Hi my name is Jeff.A chap came to our house a few weeks ago.Somthing about replacing my boiler for a modern one scheme.When we got down to the cost of a simple combination boiler it was £3,500 pounds.Oh and a twelve year quarantee.I smiled and asked him to leave through the backdoor.Another Jeff.
This system would be perfect except that it is not UL-listed in the USA and, therefore not approved for installation where permits are required. I know because I bought one and can't get the inspector to sign off on the installation because it's not certified by UL.
I am working of a client that uses your system. Is it possible to fasten photovoltaic cells on top of your panels? Have any of your client used your system in a photovoltaic and thermal configuration?
Hi John, the Energie system has an intelligent controller which works with PV systems thus maximising the free energy when the sun is out. Where are you based? Feel free to contact us direct at info@thealternativeenergycompany.co.nz
One question - Geoff if a panel was placed indoors at say 20 degrees c, would this work better than placing out in the elements? and or why is this not done? cheers
I am not an expert, but I believe that would remove heat from the indoor air. If you wanted to cool the indoor area, maybe that would work.
😂
It is a heat pump system. But using advantage to absorb sun radiation through black panels.
The moment we saw the compressor is known as the BRUH! moment 🤣🤣🤣
Similar to calling a hybrid car an electric car, you call a heat pump a solar hot water system. Nothing wrong with heat pumps - but call it a (solar augmented) heat pump, not a solar hot water system. The energy comes from the grid, driving the compressor, while the heat pump principle is like adding a gearbox to a car.
just need to add a PV panel to offset the electricty and its much more sustainable.
Edward Gunn I put my heat pump condenser in an attic hoping that higher temperature gives me extra effitiency for the heat pump
@@andreycham4797 does it work any beter as I thought of this too!!! :)
@@showme360 I would say yeas, but I would not recommend you to do so, in my situation I did not have a choice because of the condo association
@@andreycham4797 Did it work at all? Please post any results we are interested.
I am renovating my house and was wondering what do I need to connect the panel to the water heater. I would like to future proof now before I close up the walls. Thanks. I will only be using it for normal water heater usage.
We use standard copper pair-coil piping between the panel and the cylinder, so you could always fit this in advance. You can contact us from www.taec.co.nz for more information
In some solar boilers , auxiliary electric heater is installed to assist during cloudy days , and power from grid is consumed , here in this case power from grid used to compress gas and use the heat of the gas to heat the boiler water , I think , for an economic point of view the compressor should be not exceed 250 wats , for domestic application .
Had me going there for a min., until he said -10c. Heck around here, you only need one when it gets to -10c so NFG.
From what I can see its just a fancy heat pump
A solar enhanced air to water heat pump, with the advantage of solar gain.
A heat pump.
I'm not sure if heat pump if the most efficient when you use it to gain heat from air. I know heat pumps that are burried in ground. Wet ground is much better conductor than air. What's the efficiency of this pump?
Just make a geothermal heat pump.
-10x1.8+32= 14°f
I have been looking for this in the US. Is it possible to get here?
Sorry, I missed your post. the Energie system is manufactured in Portugal. Please contact Tiago for assistance.
Tiago.costa@energie.pt
They should add a solar electric panel in the mix so that during the day, it's producing electricity to off set the cost of running the pump. If there's not enough power to run it, it could switch to power from the grid.
Question: How does it work at night??? Does the refrigerant stay warm all night long? I did not get that part?
Yes, the Energie thermodynamic solar system has an intelligent switch which utilises PV power when working. The 390watt compressor comes on and off like your fridge so only works some of the time
At first I thought that this was just a heat pump, but I think that this is more and in some regards less. Heat pumps extract heat from the outside air. Standard heat pumps do not benefit directly from solar radiation. This system's panel extracts heat from both air and solar radiation. The claim that it works at night is probably based on it being a heat pump. However, I would guess that that the systems's panel is not as efficient for extracting heat from the air as a standard heat pump with it's finned heat exchanger and cooling fan. Combining the best of solar and a heat exchanger design would be be hot.
is exactly a heat pump, it extract heat from outside. It doesn't matter if it looks different.
Needs at least 263°K to work - did I get that right? Is there a way to get reliable operation even below that?
The system stops working between 263oK and 268oK depending on panel positioning and its performance begins to drop off after about 273oK. The only way to overcome this is to turn the system to Auto. The system works on temperature differential and in Auto mode if the compressor is unable to start, because the outside temperature is to cold, the system automatically switches on the small highly efficient ceramic electric heater in the cylinder. The heater uses 1.5 kW when running and it raises the temperature of the water in the cylinder. Every 20 minutes the compressor tries to restart and once the temperature of the water has been raised to, normally, about 20° C to 25° C the temperature differential between the outside air temperature and the temperature of the water in the cylinder will have been lowered enough for the compressor to take over heating the water and the electric heater is switched off.
Thanks for the explanation :-)
Btw: ever considered using an additional indoor panel to act as air conditioning support in summer? I imagine all it needs are some radiator finns, a fan and a valve with temperature switch =)
@@thealternativeenergycompan9065 so when is the climate optimum temperature ranges
hello sir i have five bedroom house could you please tell me how many panels do i need for central heating and hot water how much will cost
Hi, we are based in New Zealand, if you are please email us. Or if you are somewhere else in the world, please contact Energie, the manufacturers for a contact closer to you. www.energie.pt/en
hello sir i live in london uk
@@harbhajanbhamra6767 Please contact Richard White, richardwhite@lvprenewables.ie - Richard will be able to assist you.
The idea is quite good. However, if the compressor does run on mains electricity, then it is just a fancy fridge. Maybe it runs on solar?
Hi, the compressor uses 390watts when it is running. (instead of an electric cylinder with a 3000watt element) It does have smart PV capabilities so can run on solar power.
what is energy consumption to heat 300l tank and what water temperature it will reach without turning on an immersion?
the compressor is 390w, it comes on and off like your refrigerator providing the cheapest way to heat your water. Simply smarter.
Thermodynamics will heat your water to 55 degrees C without the immersion heater
Looks fantastic, my only question is can the energy used to operate the pump and control panel be used to heat a tank of water of the same volume?
You could do that, but it will not be nearly as efficient
Hello, my unit has started tripping the mcb in the fuse box, could it be that the element in the tank is faulty, and can it be replaced ?
Hi Richard. The answer is yes and yes, but we would want to know more details. We have no record of your name in our customer database. Can you please contact us directly and we can discuss this further.
Interesting.. I really do hope that this system is available in my country.. too bad..
how much do you want for your sysytem if you say you will bin it?i know it wont work but give a price..
It will work. It's a simple heat-pump like one in your refrigerator. I only doubt in it's efficiency vs regular heating solar panel during the day.
Is this system available in the UK yet?
Yes, UK is supplied by RVP Renewables. www.lvprenewables.ie/
@@thealternativeenergycompan9065 Thanks, your help is much appreciated!. I will investigate that today.
"Heavy water on your roof."
What's this, an old atomic bomb? Ö¿Ö
I'm designing a 1000 sqft off grind home. Could the system be designed to heat that space as well? And if so, is it radiant heating in the floors?
Yes, this system can be used to heat a hydronic underfloor heating or radiator heating system
how much energy does the compressor consume?, is it more efficient to compressing gas compare to pumping liquid glycol?
The systems do not correlate.The compressor, compresses the gas to a higher Density AND Energy level (heat ---> joules). A gas like CO2 (R-744) can have significant benefits. Basically I am saying it depends on the refrigerant as to the efficiency. The compressor itself is also generating heat. The return line, from say outside, will still be at a low temp relative to the compressor. So, by using the gas from the return line to cool the motor, you are maximizing the compressors efficiency (not sure if that is what they are doing in this product they are hawking) to compress the gas. So as many have stated this is a heat pump. The difference is the refrigerant is chosen to make the intended use more efficient.
In a fluid pump, the flow through the system does little to boost the potential energy of the system in terms of heat. It mainly increases the kinetic energy as it moves heat from one place to another (as per this discussion regarding the original post). The use of glycol is counterproductive for a heating concern.
Glycol is use to lower the freezing point and increase the boiling point of water. The reason you don't use straight "anti-freeze" in your car is that it does not transport as much heat away from the engine as water. Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about 1/2 that of water. You should use as little as you need to stop the fluid from freezing and boiling. That is why it is sold as a 50% solution, because you'd never want to use 100% in your car. Think of it as more of an insulator.
www.ohio.edu/mechanical/thermo/Applied/Chapt.7_11/Chapter9.html ... may help you ... look half way down to A Heat Pump System using Carbon Dioxide Refrigerant (R744).
Its a refridgerator in reverse and can only deliver a tank of hot water, wait until you find out the cost, as this is a direct sell company
@@ejrupp9555 this is just a regular Refrigeration system they are selling but the condenser is embedded inside the water tank to heat up the water. Their design might be energy efficient but the amount of energy used to heat up the water intimately depends of how much water they are using and how hot they want their water to be. People here are confused they think this thing uses solar to heat up the water if people really want that concept just get a water tank and leave it outside in the sun all day and let the water absorb the heat from the sun and there you have it free hot water. I wonder what type of compressor they use if it's an inverter type with a dc motor then yes it would use very little energy to operate and it should save people money
@@blasgonzalez1580 Yup refrigeration in reverse (heat pump), with all the mechanical and electrical components shielded by the water supply so that all electrical resistance is transferred to the water supply.
The idea is not bad ... for market demographics that are seasonally cold. Basically saying it's not the answer for the vast majority of viewers because it's cost & space inefficient compared to other solutions. Is an idea that doesn't take a look at the big picture on average.
Hi Geoff, just wondering if you know of anybody in NSW Australia that handles the product. Cheers Wayne.
Energie Australia provides systems in NSW, please contact austin@energieaus.com.au energieaustralia.com.au/
What would your smallest system cost to buy
Hi Sonny, where are you based? We can provide prices for New Zealand installed, the smallest thermodynamic cylinder system we stock is 200L, if you are in NZ please email us on info@taec.co.nz, if you are living somewhere else, please email tiagocosta@energie.pt for your closest contact.
Should build a PV panel into the air exchanger and help power the compressor
Yes, a perfect solution. The Energie thermodynamic system does have a smart PV controller to maximise power from your PV panels making the hot water free.
I am planning a similar system, using a normal split air conditioner, install the indoor unit in in the attic where it is always hotter than the room or outdoor. In the outdoor unit, break the liquid line between the compressor and reversing valve, divert it to a plate heat exchange then back to the reversing valve. Cold water circulate through the heat exchange and heat up.
That’s an interesting idea. If/when you complete that could you let us know how well it works?
Nice video Jeff. Clever alternative.something like geothermal.
This is way better than geothermal.
Not a solar water heater per se, though it does take big advantage of incident solar power striking the panel surface. This is a solar-augmented heat pump water heating system.
100% correct, a heat pump with solar gain
No mate, it works at night@@thealternativeenergycompan9065
Is this available in the USA?
Hi, please contact the manufacturer, Energie, for a distributor in the USA. www.energie.pt/en or email tiagocosta@energie.pt. Best wishes
Even in the hottest summer day this system requires to use electricity.
You are right, it does require some power to run, but at night in the winder it is still an efficient way of heating water
True, true. I would have liked to have seen some stats and comparisons to other systems.
I've done a lot of research on this technology and to be off grid 100% it's simply not possible and it's not convenient I've done some experiments at home with off grid Concepts and they don't work 100% technology simply is just not there yet but this type of technology is a major step forward by accepting this technology in your home you're supporting the industry with that support will come Revenue and eventually with our research and development technology will improve our attitude as human beings needs to change and become more accepting I'm sure when the invented the car there's a lot of people who were very loyal to horse and buggy where does your loyalty stand
So basically is a heat pump but the efficiency is greater on a sunny day, am I right?
Yes, greater efficiency that a regular air to water heat pump. This system will save you up to 85% on heating your water, day and night all seasons.
How dangerous is your refrigerant to the environment when it leaks ?
R134a is in a closed loop so does not leak into the environment.
Are these in America?
Hi, please contact www.energie.pt/en for information on other distributors, we supply NZ only. All the best.
very nice BUT a little more complicated than necessary
How is the compressor works is it power of Panal
Hi I live in Wales, who
is your UK contact? as I am interested in this system because of the
low energy requirements, however I don't know how long it takes to
heat a tank of water, we aim to have a 300L tank, how long would it
take to heat the water to say 40c at 0c outside temp, and without any assistance from an
immersion heat? plus I have notice that despite loft insulations the
temperature gets no lower than 10c when its 0c outside, so would it
not be prudent to install your system in the loft space?, and make
use of this heat loss, especially as in the summer it gets up 40c. I
would prefer this approach because of the appearance of this panel on
the outside wall is cosmetically undesirable, we already have solar
panels make the house look naff.
Contact www.lvprenewables.ie/. LVP Renewables are installing Energie systems all around the UK, they will be able to help you. Best wishes.
Is this system able to work with a geothermal furnace setup?
whats the running cost , and how much is the system ????
A single panel cylinder system uses a 390 watt compressor which comes on and off again like your fridge. For a family of 4, around $14-20NZ a month to heat all your hot water, a saving of up to 85%. A system for a family of four in NZ is around $8,000NZ
Regarding the system, so many of the comments are repeated. if you do not understand the dynamics of the system it is simple, go and look for other independent positions on it, and others for comparison. That's not hard is it? as i understand it the addition of the roof panel adds more exposure from all weather conditions (that are themselves warmer than the refrigerant in the panel), thus creating additional warming of the gas (over that of a standard heat pump) and thereby creating a greater temperature differential which in turn reduces the systems reliance on the use of the compressor to compress and increase the heat for exchange, thereby reducing the cost to run. Having low, or zero maintenance certainly sounds beneficial and if this is akin to a refrigerator then this sounds plausible to me. i know of three people with this system and all seem very happy with it. Whilst it may be more expensive we all have choices and can choose to use another/or cheaper system, so it comes down to us doing our own research, and being able to compare our budget and environmental conditions to determine what is acceptable to each of us. cheers
Compressor is there ... So it not 100% electric free .. unlike solar water heater
That is correct, the system uses a 390w compressor which enables it to work day and night unlike old fashioned solar water heaters which will not heat your water if the weather is bad.
You are right, although most solar water heaters require some sort of backup, for when there is no sun
I like! it is ur company in african countries
Energie is based in Portugal, www.energie.pt/en They will be able to assist you.
So any idea of cost
It would depend on what you were looking at and which country you live in. We can help you if you are based in New Zealand. Otherwise please contact energie.pt for your nearest supplier. Best wishes.
No it is a reverse A/C unit that is all. Congratulations