Will America destroy itself? | Joscha Bach and Lex Fridman
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Joscha Bach: Nature of...
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Joscha Bach is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher.
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“An audience of critics that evaluate themselves.” Love it.
Joscha Bach's analysis is spot on.
Completely agree
No, it isn't. The far right is not going to rise in America, the far left have.
Bosch parrots the absurd statement that other industrialized countries have greater life expectancy and its due to the healthcare system.
Lex definitely needed more sleep before having this conversation
An interview with Bach requires a lot of sleep the night before.
This is where Lex is blinded by American nationalism.
You're wrong, Lex. There is no long arc of history in this country. In the medium term, government has become less responsive to the exigencies of the moment. We are no more comfortable than other industrialized countries. That is not a reason for governmental incompetence. He's right. The future could go either way.
Very true. America repeatedly forgets how young it is and thinks it has everything figured out already.
Caught up in ideological strife instead of committing to practical solution finding.
Basically the rebellious teenager. (I know, not a very original point)
Lex, do you have stocks or sponsors in American healthcare? Seems likely defending it as it produces reducing life spans, increasing astronomical costs, life crushing bankruptcies, and many other inferior and inadequate outcomes, especially when compared to our “peer” societies. It’s broken by deign Lex, not procrastinating for an imaginary deadline.
This always makes me laugh, I’m from the U.K. I’ve heard it from Jimmy Dore.
It’s not just, “pay for healthcare”. It is heavy taxes on alcohol, tobacco, sugar and fat. Massive regulations on anything unhealthy.
Think of all the lobby groups, think of all the Americans been told they can’t drink soda anymore.
Not happening.
From what I’ve seen you have massive migration from Mexico, a massive mental health issue in San Fransisco homeless, who pays for that?
We have constant arguments here about people turning up from other countries expecting healthcare, having loads of kids.
Who would vote for that? I wouldn’t. I’m sick of paying for other people.
Plus America’s Obesity problem, who is paying for that?
No way, not happening. You should all stop voting based on it because it is not happening.
@@mrmagoo-i2l I don't think we Americans consider obesity a problem anymore... That's how far gone we are...
@@gavinwhitford5145 I find the biggest problem in that arena are hype/fad diets, bad trainers and a bit of arrogance. I mean if you tell me something like MSG is awful I'll ask why you eat monosodium glutamate. if you judge me I will not judge you but read and analyze later. If you are to the point where I say that don't ask me what Cyanocobalamin and then talk to me about diet or nutrition lol. people trust and parrot instead of read. I mean it's only a tool when used properly. It's so absurd that sometimes i am grateful we will soon learn that we got spoiled and arrogant. It will swing back into balance when i get this stupid SPOON off my magnetized body after my M-RNA antigen heheh why do I need to tell people that tell me to take this and I say it's benadryl when you see diphenhydramine hcl on the label and say it's better than benadryl i just kinda say, really? Are you taking the piss?
Isn’t that where personal responsibility steps in?
@@donwarner6925 slightly. We wanted regulation. The things causing diabetes are all these unneeded processed foods and fast food places literally get people addicted to their burgers by adding sugar and shit it's just yucky. I agree tho we should just make sure everyone is informed then let natural selection occur.
Is Lex knowingly or unknowingly defending criminal pharmaceutical companies?
I really hope its naivete, it would be such a let down to find that lex was in the pockets of the corrupt
@@liamlieblein6375 dude, have you ever considered that maybe it’s his opinion? Not everybody that disagrees with you is part of some grand conspiracy. With that being said, fuck big pharma
@@LickingAndSucking Oh for sure, sorry if I gave off the impression that I thought that was the most likely option. I think it's much more likely to be his opinion, but even the possibility that he was accepting money was startling, hence the comment.
@@LickingAndSucking there seems to be good discussion here but i see a lot of conclusions, loaded buzzwords and just unfortunate bias at play. I am just glad that people like you appear now n then. People are so smart and they know so many right things ,in their opinion, all they got left is a blanket statements that they'd be billionaires if the game wasn't rigged. I say if I were so smart i wouldn't be arguing on yt when MOST likely anyone that I disagree with is a indoctrinated person or BOT. I remember the simple times when it was all GWBush's fault. heheh. to be fair I was voting since before 2000 and I seen this happen. I do not assume your age or you beliefs i just think there's no "BIG BAD BOOGEY" men or entire industries corrupted. that's like justifying genocide b/c of a few bad apples as a metaphor
He is invested in this system socially, emotionally, financially. He understands now that it's against his interests to push ideas that further delegitimize the ruling and prominent institutions in this system.
Disagree with Lex’s argument - the last minute innovation he talks in past years can not be relied on as a crutch.
Have to be constantly progressing to the goal, cant utilize back against the wall tactics.
If the late response/interest to social media taking over the world repeats w/ AI we may be screwed…
if the country is a ship, the progress is speeding up in rough waters. Meanwhile the process is same old same old w/ old, seemingly less competent, seemingly less concerned captains.
Lex does seem to have a pollyanna view of technology and progress
Damn, disappointed in Lex here. He isn't sure masks really work? Wtf. The science behind wearing masks is well established and has been a fundemental tool in medicine for a long time. Doctors, surgeons, dentists ets. have been wearing them for a long time, and not for shits and giggles.
@@nickalex734 there are tons of medical papers on it, go to National Library of medicine or Journal of the royal society of medicine etc and take your pick. Surgeons have been using masks to prevent infecting patients for over 100 years. Keeping things sterile is a basic concept in medicine. And somethings you don't need massive large scale tests to know if they work. When you exhale, your breath, travels a certain distance at a certain speed. Can you honestly not see why putting a mask, or anything for that matter, in front of your mouth will decrease the distance and speed at which the cloud from your breath travels? It's easy logic. Do you think we need massive large scale test to find out if the concept of parachutes work also? Do we need to have large scale tests to find out if drinking and driving really is dangerous?
@@Flurgburglr 👏👏👏👏
You couldn't be more wrong.. it's clear you've been brainwashed
Masks don't work!!
Knowing this, before they sedate me for my hernia surgery next week, I'm going to insist that my surgen as well as eveeyone in the operating room remove their masks.
I agreed more with Joscha. Lex seems a bit naive in hoping a crisis will produce the best leaders and solutions.
The USA has a winner takes all mentality, and americans seem to think that's fine. As if it's a zero sum game. That 95% need to lose so that the top 5% win.
9:25 - Exactly. The problem is that our experts are politicized. They'd likely give different answers if not for social pressures. The media is driving 'scientific consensus' more than science is.
9:59 - Unfortunately, the Fed will just paper over that revolution... (which leads to the guest to citing--correctly--the Weimer Republic lol)
GIN ! heh. Shout out to Eric Weinstein ~~!
I don't think Joscha is saying that our experts are politicized. I believe he said that the intellectual products of experts are politicized and thus subverted and rendered less valuable. This is what I heard but I could be wrong.
Joscha you are an amazing breath of fresh air. My man Lex sounds like a corporate puppet.
Kinda a scary thing especially when u don't have healthcare, struggling with effects of this horrible pandemic and then told well innovate when we can't even get any progress with the pandemic.
Such a smart guy with such crazy notion and blind spot for many.
Lex here reminds me of my dad, he isn't a bad person and he has a very positive view on the world. He relies on this positive view to make him feel good about the world, anything that insults this positive view i.e Joscha's argument here creates an emotional backlash as it threatens their view on life that they rely on so dearly
That's a problem I've noticed in most people, including Lex. They live in a positivity filled fairy tale where they ignore or refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming negative aspects of our reality.
Bach rules! Lex had a bad day..
This is my first RUclips comment. I felt compelled to do so in hopes Lex may read this. I love you my friend. You are a great podcaster and even better human but on this topic you are way too naive. Joscha is correct I am afraid. We can’t operate like this learning and improving generationally when thing like climate change and nuclear proliferation are threats that need dealt with yesterday. If we have to wait for my kids to fix the issue we will all be dead by then. It may already be too late. Only moon shot efforts to fix our problems have any hope of fixing things. We need massive, aggressive and meaningful changes to our political structure and to the reimagining of government and capitalism and how we can better leverage the strengths of both and contain the dangers of each.
I think lex tries hard to be apolitical, always a mistake imho, whereas joscha is comfortable with his own unique take on politics
Lex is talking about an America that does not exist anymore. He does need to get some sleep and then wake up. Energy drinks are not the answer.
I think its moreso that Lex moves in circles where the people are fringe, Jocko, Elon, the best of the best scientists working on the toughest problems advancing better and better solutions. However that doesn't account for the vast majority of Americans, who carry a very large momentum with them. I think Joscha Bach is spot on with this. I studied Applied Mathematics and Infectious disease, during WW2 the scientists and relevant professionals carried far more weight in terms of there ability to make decisions for the public good.
can someone tell me how this guy knows so much about everything
This just shows that Lex is still blue pilled
Yeah, its an awfully resilient blue pill-state too. I mean, he has talked to Michael Malice, Dan Carlin and such...
@@RainbowDevourer I know, right?
It’s called pragmatic. He knows who butters his bread.
"Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two is four. If that is granted, all else follows." Today in the US math is called racist. Not sure if Orwell saw that coming.
Today in the US the sky is probably called racist.
It would be a lot more funny if the corporations and banks weren’t involved, I bet the CCP find it truly hilarious though.
The eyes open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brains has long since departed…
9:30 “A modernist society deals with the ground truth while a post modernist society deals with appearance”. Brilliant summary of the challenge.
Great conversation, Lex. Keep doing what you do, please.
Lex is jumping through unnecessary hoops
Never seen Lex so lost
They’re both lost-lex just more so.
Bach is on the nail with The Manhattan project. The gap between science and policy is widening, this is woefully obvious with climate change and also the pandemic. The truth has ceased to be a motivator imo.
I commend Joscha on his resolute patience. Its quite obvious here (and throughout the full podcast) that Lex is irritable and well below par. Hints of dismissiveness and an added (amateurish) naivety arise almost at every turn, which unfortunately impacts the conversational dynamic and indeed Joscha's desire to fully engage.
Lex, out of respect for your craft, your guests, your audience, yourself... do better, be better... increase your self-care and get some proper rest.
The podcast was fine by me
A slightly overly dramatic analysis
I think the podcast was pretty good.
Honestly I think healthcare is a situation where you should just follow the data, it really shouldn't be a philosophical problem. (The libertarian argument that all taxation is immoral is flawed, I'm open to discussing this) If it turns out that the best, that is, mix of cheapest and highest quality health care is from a hybrid public-private system, then let's do that. If this condition can be met with a fully public system, then do that. Ultimately it should just be a question of what form of healthcare financing is cheapest and delivers the best results.
I personally intuitively think the best system would likely be some form of public voucher system to encourage price competition between healthcare providers, or a public system where individuals can choose to get additional private coverage for expedited and/or special treatments.
This guy would make a great film critic. A theoretical technocrat.
Ooooooof Lex.
This was one of lexs wrost
None of Lex‘s points about the large arc of history and of how hard things have to get until the US steps up help a person who is uninsured and currently dying of Covid, or suffering long Covid or any other preventable diseases because they never could afford to see a doctor. All while these people are being helped and supported in many countries such as Great Britain, Germany, France or the Nordics, at comparable levels of this global, indefinite notion of freedom which seems like it’s always the top most important thing to Americans.
The conflict of this interview highlights the complexity of social engineering in any direction. The arguments about the pandemic show how difficult, if not impossible it is for a culture to hold more than two ideas at a time, which is why great accomplishments require an individual invested with power to navigate the nuances of reality instead of the binary nature of collective consciousness.
"every generation in the us after the war, has lost the plot even more' lmao
Lex is an idealist and likes to think about potential. Many of us are cynical and less idealistic. Much of this comes from age and experience. The world needs hope as well as hard realism. I give Lex credit for holding onto his idealism.
I think he went off the deep end with this one.
The world REALLY doesn't need anymore cynicism but keep the realism.
The HBO show, "The Wire", demonstrates all the flaws which will be used to explain things in "The Rise and Fall of the American Empire" at some point in the distant future.
Poor Lex, hes showing his naivity and inability to call out incompetence for what it is. Americans didn’t get it done. Nobody was held to account. Not even those who were demonstrably maniacle, overly political and did massive human damage.
You’re absolutely correct.
Elect great leaders? What happened with engineering approach with creating constantly improving and addressing root cause systems for maintaining people well-being?
You need great leaders in place to institute such systems, no?
@@michaelneufeld4515 I think unless those are corrupt systems already. Not sure if you can change a system from within or by being part of it. Especially now when they're feeding on division, negative emotions, indoctrination, illness and power and using all of resources gained to take even more advantage of our physiology, like dopamine and instant gratification to keep us hooked and grow larger. It feels parasitic. Putting great leaders inside this broken system just doesn't seem to work. It's always been the technology that solved problems ,made things easier and broke old ways irrefutably, but with technology getting more and more sophisticated, you know we're heading for global disaster when putting it into the hands of our mass political, financial, military, pharmaceutical systems with biased, activist, dividing and addictive social media. I hope transformation will go through decentralization to more self sufficient communal or individual level by no longer needing to consume, believe, follow or watch any of it and those become obsolete. The unplugging if you will. I think unless there is incentive and global consciousness that serves our well being and the planet in the first place it's not gonna work and we can only start from the individual level. Maybe it's part of our societal evolution as well. Maybe the self balancing system is in that that the worse it gets the closer to the turning point we are, but the amplitude of change just gets bigger and quicker nowadays.
That's the easiest question I ever was asked. Because it already has destroyed itself
How do you define "destroyed" here?
Do you mean something like "the US has lost it's way" or something like that?
@@brianwade8649 haha if you have to ask that actually proves my point and also means it's useless for me to even banter with such a person hahaha
i love Joscha!
The only way to get nursing home employees to stay 24/7 at the facility throughout a pandemic is to give them emergency $1 million per year pay during that time. Societally that's probably still cheaper in money and lives than having the old people get sick and spend weeks in the ICU at a huge cost per patient. Government pays that cost through medicare and medicaid so it would've probably been cheaper to pay the huge salaries but who has the authority to make such a decision? Probably no one other than congress.
Lex Fridman could be the poster boy for optimism and hopium. Joscha Bach is a realist.
The doc use to come to the house when I was a kid. Did not need 5 staffers to pay nor a big office with high rents. Now we all have to help pay for those large, impressive facilities called medical buildings all the many who work in them.
If our* system was flawed Obamacare was literally designed to exploit that to break it. We will recover when we put "value" and quality back into the system. Ya can't complain about a broken window if you threw a rock through it. On top of that...... now we people working cash $ and double dipping through this pandemic as well.
we also used give kids smallpox 250 years ago to be used like a vaccine. Things will ebb and flow. when you want to radically blow up a whole system and industry it seems people look at the ebb and not the flow. that wax not the wane and they blame and point fingers . it's unfortunate
“Maybe I’m getting old”…….I don’t know how many times I’ve mumbled those words in the last few years.
A mark of intellect is abundant patience in allowing your opposite speak. Both executed this skill maturely.
Thousands of seniors died for nothing along with Healthcare failures and not one person held accountable
U should read dark age america…it’s spooky
Hi Lex, thanks for getting Joscha Bach on your podcast. Please listen to your guests -- don't argue with them. Best wishes, John
Coming off extremely naive here Lex.
Lex is easily agitated when he isn’t getting his 8 hours of sleep, clearly he isn’t getting the point of his own question
I was about to comment something just like this. I don’t know about sleep, but sometimes he’ll ask a really convoluted question, and then get frustrated if the guest didn’t answer the question he meant. Frustrating to watch.
Yeah lex has been slipping lately he’s been off since his encounter with jocko lol
They’re both lost.
Lex is completely naive to how broken America is. And with all his bitcoiners on his show, he's still not there yet to seeing reality
My worst experience and treatment that I’ve ever had was Last month at a Native American reservation. That is socialized medicine.
Please read, The Long Descent by John Michael Greer. And then talk to him. He seems to have the clearest picture of what is coming our way. People need to understand how civilizations die.
Yes, because when you take away from those willing to work and give to those who would not, the democracy will cease to exist
Lex is showing he knows very little about the US healthcare system. Does he think it’s some tech company slowly building a better world? Highest spending per capita with some of the worst outcomes. The top insurance company made 250 billion dollars in revenue.
I'm not worried about the US system's response to massive problems (Let's win against Hitler, Let's beat Russia to the space race, etc)
What I'm worried about is the US system's response to complex and nuanced problems.
- Failing to reorganize the economy to face climate change
- Failing to regulate antibiotics usage
- Population slowly losing faith in systems
- Rise in alternate truth and anti-intellectualism encouraging populism in politics
In other words,
Lex seems to describe the system as an electrical fuse: when things go bad, the fuse reacts quickly.
But it is possible to break a system slowly without triggering the fuse.
Rome was not destroyed. Its foundation slowly eroded.
In this clip, Joscha ís correct, Lex is incorrect.
I agree . Health care is a business not a system to be healthy. I was in a bad work accident . Dr just want you to go get surgery. The workers compensation system even worse ...
Free Market-is exactly that. It is free, and a market. Free market will always exist. Without government industry and self-interest groups interference.
Dont let someone who doesn't give a shit about your country,tell ya what's best for your country. ESPECIALLY.......if they're smart.
Lex is spot on about everything in this clip. Well done!
There is another option... Georgism. Natural resources fund society. Land taxes fund a UBI.
Elon Musk cleaning up Twitter give me hope that the truth will prevail.
The media control on information is what is destroying society.
Covid didn't scare me, murky science, unmoored dialogue and political aspects did. This the first time I've remarked in any manner.
Where healthcare is seen as a right, governments rule healthcare.
If there were more competition then the free market would take care of itself.
Lex, Joscha is correct that capitalism is not functioning in a timely manner, just as you wouldn’t rely on innovation mechanisms to put out the fire in your home. The U.S. is great at many things. But it’s failing on many fronts, where it can learn lessons from other nations. You’re wrong on this one Lex.
Wow, you’ve really surprised me on this clip. Not in a good way. Your conceptual ideas don’t apply here Lex.
Interesting video
Why would it happen now if it hasn't already? Been through it all.
No offense but dumb comment 🤦♂️
@@stevenkaz28 care to elaborate? The greatest nation on earth land of free home of brave. What will topple it?
@@jarrettthomas4865 yes considering they still seem OK financially despite the absurd debt and they had Trump for four years....not complete anarchy just divided as all hell...all it takes is the taliban to politely tell the police and army they're having back the sharia strict Islam law and, oh the country. 🎪 continues
Yes
It won't destroy itself people turn us against each other to destroy each other likes been happening.
Did he just say the virus wasn’t that deadly 😂
Becouse it wasn't?👀ツ
==>
We have statistical chance for much worse type of virus "rising" & from not so obvious reasons we actually have to develop technology even more aggressive in this area or we civilization will be doomed (It's doomed from other reasons but it won't be my problem then :v)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fridman is getting murdered on his own show.
"American democracy is a sham, no matter how much it's pumped by the oligarchs who run the country (and who control the nation's "news" media)," he writes. "The US, in other words, is basically similar to Russia or most other dubious 'electoral' 'democratic' countries. We weren't formerly, but we clearly are now." -Eric Zuess
Bosch isn’t serious here.
Been disagreeing very vehemently against Lex's recent arguments
(I know my opinion doesn't matter in any way shape or form)
Lex sounds a little outclassed here
Everything he said about covid, it’s so easy to look back at say what we should’ve done. No one really knew what was going on and everyone who hates Trump tries to jump on this situation like it was so obvious..”come on down to Chinatown!!” -Nancy Pelosi
Wow, I didn't think Lex could be so naive.
I use to get sick 2-3x a year before masks, I haven’t been sick in 1.5 years. During the pandemic I got a job working at ups and I’m around 100’s of different people every day, not always social distancing not even close. But we all where are masks and I’ve never been sick. I’m not vaccinated either
@9:25
I must say that your guest was much more objective in his replies than his host .
I don't recognize this Lex. He is off his game for some reason.
Y’all crazy I agree with lex
Innovation is important but we spend all our time on “isms” no real work is being done since we aren’t really a meritocracy anymore just trying to carry out a twisted ideology at any cost. The USA is in spirit very communist now, usually leads to mass death and then reset. Hard times ahead.. not saying that those times can’t be overcome but it takes pain to bring people back to truth and morality in decedent times.
Lex,
Your undying optimism gives me hope.
RADICAL GRATITUDE!
This time I totally disagree with lex
HOPEULLY
Lex's dogmatic capitalism has blinded him to a lot of obvious truths
It already has
I feel Lex knows a little too little about societies outside USA. Wow. If the virus was deadlier?? He does not impress me. Bach however. He has a High and deep perspective.
attack on the middle class
Lex is a smart dude, but way off on this one on every front.
Lex, in my humble opinion - and I could be dead wrong here - you've smoked too much pot too many times... Liberal capitalism - yes, but what you have in the States is a far cry from reasonably healthy capitalism laid down in theory.
This country is fucked. Period.
First off these countries he speaks of their population is at best half the U.S. population or even far less, next the best doctors in their fields work where? The U.S. and why?They make the most money here because they arent capped by socialist type medicare for all payment structures and lastly these same countries are at the mercy of the people in power example Australia or Canada or France where the PM says lock it all down and they have no bill of rights to protect them I will happily take our current healthcare system over any others just to keep our bill of rights and the freedoms we have left the minute you fully take that socialist healthcare system the rest of the system will fall like dominoes
Say it with me: healthcare is not a right
“The modernist society has to deal with the ___” what is that word?
The grand truth
It think it was “ground truth”, ie reality.
Thanks guys
Administrative bloat agree, but #1 reason is the inputs (I.e. Americans) are so unhealthy due to their lifestyles.