Tbh, the main attraction of the HBK-4G is not it's ability to score deadly hits, but it's ability to generate a response from the OpFor. Like a less prone to dying instantly Saladin. It's not fast, it doesn't shoot far, it's hit or miss, but by Blake you can't just *ignore* it. You have to give it attention. Preferably a significant amount of attention. So in a normal usual fight, 4G is unlikely to achieve anything spectacular, unless it lands that golden shot. But it's very likely to shift the tactical situation in your favour if you position it just right - denying space to the enemy and forcing OpFor to either manoeuvre around 4G or allocate a lot of firepower to disable it (firepower that isn't concentrated on your other stuff, mind you). EDIT: Also, Swayback quite often struggles against *fat* targets. Unsurprisingly. It has way more potential damage that 4G and much more consistency with redundant weapon systems, but it often - in my experience - struggles to punch above it's weight. Which is the attraction of the 4G. But I do love Swayback dearly and use it, probably, more than 4G.
Mhmm very true on both points Commander! Everybody gangster til the AC/20 rounds start flying. And very true for the Discoback. It needs something to punch a hole first.
I’d also argue the whitworth is a great mech, as you get the benifits of being a trebuchet which can actually jump, or a dervish which isn’t a cleverly disguised bomb.
@@baker90338 I personally have a soft spot for Whitworth. It's a "good enough" fire support mech, that works reasonably well and quite fun to field. I like to field them alongside Hatamoto-Chi for my DCMS Force prior and in the early CI.
@@laz272727 40k has a nice term for this type of units: "Distraction Carnifex". Draws attention, scary if left unchecked, probably will achieve nothing, will save your other stuff from being shot at and will win you positional advantage
I'm new to the Battletech franchise. Thank you very much talking slime for these awesome in-character breakdowns, it's been fun seeing how mediums and heavies try to form their battlelines
I love taking contracts fighting Liao, sure it is tough but the salvage is worth it and everyone loves you for doing it. Supporting a lance of Vindicators by fighting house lmao is basically living off the land for mercenaries.
Happy this list is here! As commander of the Red Sash mercenary group (est. 3010), I will share my experience. Despite being built around heavy lances, for the most part, there is at least one medium mech in every mech lance within the Sashes. In most cases, the medium mechs in the heavy lances are what you label a cavalry or scout mech, in order to give mobility and a bit of scouting ability to the lance. Due to a long period of time fighting the Capellans and being in or around the Free Worlds border, we have picked up a large number of Wolverines, most of them the WVR-6M variant. The Wolverines have been very effective. The Phoenix Hawk is a special mech, my highest scoring pilot used one for a period before upgrading to an Exterminator and eventually leaving to form our sister company the Gold Sashes. We do have a Wyvern in the company, but alas, it has never really done that well. I am not sure if it is bad luck or just not meshing well with the rest of the lance and the tactics used, but I feel the Wyvern really demands a top pilot to get much out of it. Not really a fan of the Griffin GRF-1N. I feel its all long range weapons and poor heat efficiency really let it down. In my experience, if you push in close and keep the pressure on the GRF-1N, it tends to fall apart. As far as custom variants from the Sashes go, a favorite is a custom variant of the Hermes II. We replace the AC/5 with a large and medium laser, with the remaining weight going to heatsinks. This dramatically increases the firepower of the stock Hermes II, while still leaving a long range weapon. Stay safe fellow mercenaries.
This is such an excellent series. Really opened my eyes to the wide array of mech uses beyond just walk and shoot in mechwarrior games. I have a new appreciation for locusts, Phoenix hawks, and centurions.
Hot damn, I started following you last week and was hoping Id see a new upload. Your videos really helped me getting the basics of the game down! Thanks!
Ranking by c-bill and logistics fails to account for the most important factor in the analysis: 80% of games run by BV alone with only passing thought put towards fluff.
Great job again, Otto. It was worth the wait. Can't wait to see the Assault Mech group. 👍 My favorite is actually a modified CRB-27SL Crab. I remove the Medium Laser and one of the Large Pulse Lasers, replace them with a Snub-Nose PPC and 2 Small Lasers, add two Double IS heatsinks and drop down to 3 jump jets. Now I can jump and alpha strike without even gaining heat. I called him Fiddler.
I wish there was more content for the newer eras like the ill clans, I have seen the succession wars many times but have barely seen what happens after that.
@@ghoulbuster1 there's a few reasons for that but the primary one is that most people tend to play 3025 through the Clan invasion. To be honest, I've never found any of the subsequent lore to be particularly interesting and the glut of advanced systems and technologies (for me) removes many of the interesting choices I have to make as a player. DHS make heat management less difficult and weapons like the heavy PPC, clan ERPPC, and all the flavours of Gauss result in unit makeups that favour (at least, lean into) early headcapping. Introtech may be limited, but the limitations are fun to try to optimize.
Great video! I think my medium list would match up nearly exactly, The Hermes 2 is very underrated for its role because of the "40 ton curse", but its a solid mech to add to any heavy recon force. Definitely nice to see the Centurion AL get some love, its one of my favorite mechs and among the best overall trooper mechs, cheap, respectable armor and damage, and most importantly a cool design!
I think the Centurion would rate better on the "12-round battle" criteria if one ton of ammo for the AC and the LRM were replaced with more armor - as it would have sufficient ammo with one ton each, rather than two (assuming the opening rounds are at long range, where the LRM is effective, but AC ammo is conserved).
Awesome work! As someone coming from hbs battletech, it's interesting getting a different perspective - specifically one that doesn't have Yang, the god of mechtechs, able to completely modify anything into anything. I'm very excited for the assault tier list, even if it's just so I can cry when my favs get low ratings, lol. Also, drunk slime doing a clan-only list would be funny just for you to shrug and go "they're omnimechs, just pick one" 😂
Variants I've had good runs with that weren't covered: Sentinel -3KA, drops the ac for a large laser, some additional heat sinks, and most importantly: more armor. Hunchback 4H, swapping the 20 for a 10 and 2 more medium lasers is nice, but the best part is that it crit pads that ammo bomb in the left torso with heat sinks by moving them from the legs.
Every single one of my favorite medium mechs has at least one autocannon or PPC. It always causes me a little bit of pain when you dis on the ballistic versions of a mech I love, only to recommend the variant that replaces the guns with laser vomit. I don't hate lasers, but they aren't as visceral and satisfying. If your torso isn't full of enough high explosive to celebrate American independence day when a SRM crits your ammo bin, you aren't really getting the full Battletech experience.
Ac/5 are in a very very rough place there range bracket is a good one there heat to damage ratio is great but there weight to damage ratio is lacking. I personally feel the community hates on them far to much but despite that i have to admit that in mechs any way they are just to weight inefficient to be considerd good. They however do have a place in ice vehicles though if you can spare the weight the ac/10 is almost always better accept for aa duties were the ac5 is really good.
@@xerty5502 I use lots of light tanks, so I make pretty heavy use of the AC-5. I actually quite like the UAC-5 and LBX-5s on my custom mechs. The basic AC-5 is a little lacking on damage output though.
@@Kitkat-986 oh I use it a fair amount to and it is not the damage that kets it down its the damage to weight ratio. I actually like the ppc ac5 combo better then 2 ppc at least until double heat sinks show up then the base ac5 turns into trash
@@Kitkat-986 true enough though I do not particularly like bv it does not do a good enough job of setting comparative values it is better then any other metrics bt has ever used but still not good at all
I'll be real, I only just "hired" you and the task I have in mind is rather large but here it is. I want to expand our mercenary outfit to include a company of combat vehicles. Can you use your evaluation matrix to compare them and make some recommendations?
A solid modification to the dervish is to axe thr SRMs for 2 more medium lasers and swap the LRM-10s for a pair of 5s each and use the saved mass from that and no SRM Ammo to add 2 heatsinks and 2 tons of armor.
"So the Centurion has a problematic AC/10 and Missile Launchers? Eh, out those go in favor of an AC/20 and that left hand is now a melee weapon" - some guy named Justin
Hey Sven! Sorry I missed your message the other day. I responded but RUclips decided to assign it to someone else. D: Glad you're enjoying the series. And yeah I did have fun with the editing. Hope all is well with you!
My fellow man, the disco Hunchie is just love. I would suggest also getting the OG Hunchie tho, dat ac20. It's like a larger brother of the trashca-Urbanmech.
@@macrux152__8 My med/light extended lance would be 2 Locust1Vb, 1 Phoenix Hawk 3K, a Crab 27b and a second Crab27b or a Wolvie6M. However, tournaments tend to enforce a limit of 6 mechs at most, capped at year 3055-3057, and 6k of battle value with only official mechs (else, my crabs would carry jumpjets...)
Having battle experience with just most of these (either piloting or working alongside/against), I can confirm that your rankings are pretty close to my experience. One note about the Shadow Hawk: while it isn't particularly good at anything, it can do a little bit of _everything,_ which is itself valuable in a small merc unit.
Best part about Shadow Hawk is the fact that it can comfortably support your other mechs at any range. Need to add a bit more shooting down range? Shadow Hawk. Need to add a bit more shooting close up? Shadow Hawk. It's not taking the first prize in anything at all, but it's a very versatile machine that is comfortable to pilot. You can put your greener guys inside and it's unlikely that they are gonna off themselves with failed PSRs.
Of each category, I'd say my favorites are the following: Bodyguard: Wyvern WVE-6N. Solid weapons and versatile loadout, rugged, and well-protected. Scout: Phoenix Hawk PHX-1D. Really easy to source parts for and a great command mech for scout and striker lances. Cavalry: Wolverine WVR-6M. It's got command capabilities, extended torso twisting, jump capability, and both piercing and crit seeking capability, what's not to like? Ranged Cav: Trebuchet TBT-5N. It's equally competent at most ranges, making it one of a few LRM boats that isn't totally screwed if caught without protection point-blank. Unique: Hunchback in general. Name a role, there's a Hunchback variant that can do it (except for scouting, unless you prefer to conduct recon Steiner style). It's also durable enough to be considered a "pocket heavy". For the base HBK-4G, the low ammo supply can be mitigated by using caseless ammo, which lets you double your ammo capacity for a very slight chance of jamming your gun. Honorable mention: Cicada CDA-3C. I would argue classing this variant as a scout is inaccurate, it's a sniper/skirmisher. Having a PPC on something that fast in 3025 is REALLY nice.
Always look forward to these. I'm sure I'll watch this one a dozen or so times as well. I think the biggest difference between how you analyze mechs and how I do would be that I put a lot of weight into the BV cost since I don't look at it in terms of a campaign. The Griffin has good armor and mobility, and I like the PPC and LRM 15, but it's one of the more expensive (in BV terms) medium mechs. So the BV per armor and BV per damage per round actually isn't that great. I struggle to put it into a lance because of the cost. As a comparison, the Trebuchet's armor is worse, but damage potential is better for about 180 less BV. The Wolverine is one where I need to lighten up a little. I normally love an SRM 6, but for some reason, I can't get myself to put a Wolverine in a lance. I really hope Catalyst Games Labs updates the Wyvern and makes a new mini. I love the Wyvern and the Vindicator both. They just seem cool to me. The biggest surprise to me is probably the Crab. I actually like the Crab, but I feel like it's irrational. I just like that you can throw two big piercing weapons in a lance for under 1150 BV. I feel like it's just shy of being great. Some jump jets or a few medium lasers or something. I'll have to take another look at it, taking your rating into consideration. I like the centurion for its low cost and AC/10. If I only have a little BV left for my last lance slot and I don't need something specific, I'm happy to throw a Centurion in. Finally, the Kintaro is one of those mechs that I love in theory, but I'm terrified to use. The armor is quite good for the BV cost and all those SRM 6s are very efficient for BV per damage. But there's just so much ammo. But this is another good example of why it's hard for me to use a Wolverine. For just ~80 more BV, you get triple the SRMs and 20ish more armor.
Yeah, for the analysis I wanted to do it more roleplay wise and decided to do C-bills instead of BV. I think it worked because of the addition fun of being able to immerse the viewer into the universe.
Biggest travesty of the Crab is lack of N/LP Quirk. It has to have it. It looks the part. But for some reason, Cauldron-Born gets it, while Crab doesn't. Absolute crime against Crabkind
I have a surprising amount of love for the vindicator. In both battletech and mechwarrior games. The mech just seems to WORK. and has a surprising amount of flexibility for personality. IMO a better, more complete centurion. For once liao got that special sauce
Liao doesn't have a whole lot going for them, but when they get it right, they get it really right. The Vindicator, Raven, and Cataphract are all proof that necessity is the mother of invention.
I have been anticipating this weight class since you first started. Excellent breakdown. I think the very first time I played BattleTech I was driving a Hunchback. I had no idea what I was doing then, but I had fun. I have nothing but love for the Phoenix Hawk. I always had the MGs taken out for either more heatsinks or substitute them with SLs to make it a deadly flanker and backstabber. Pair it up with a dedicated heavy brawler and look out.
The funny thing about the phawk is that when ever I take the MG's I wish i had not the moment I take the varrient without them I find I desperately need them.
Appreciate the fact you rated some variants as well. I’ve often found a questionable mech in its standard form is much improved with a few weapons swapped.
I have a chronic problem. I am determined to make the assassin into something useable. Had some success (that might have been a fluke) swapping out the LRM 5, SRM 2 and 1 ton of ammo for 2 srm 4s with 1 ton of ammo total on the 101 and running it like a faster javelin and lightswatter
I get some mileage out of the Assassin in the HBS game, thanks to the targeting bonus it gets. I never tried it on tabletop, but swapping out that LRM for an SRM is a solid plan.
The Assassin's weapon load out has always confused me. You've got a fast, jump capable 40 ton mech . . . .and you give it a missile-skirmisher weapon set? (My favorite mech is the stalker, btw). One, the assassin isn't suited to that role. Two, it's way too light to have weapons split in a long range group and a short range group. That's a good choice for heavier designs when heat is the limiting factor, not tonnage. Totally baffling. So, what should it have instead? What is the assassin's identity? Well, it's a fat light mech. Since it still goes fast, this wastes tonnage compared to a 35 ton design, but gives you more structure points, potentially more armor, and most of all, more damaging physicals. So whatever weapons it's got, it should keep its arms and legs free. This things job is to jump behind a target, and well, assassinate them. SRMS are a good weapon, but they trade raw damage for range and utility. 2 SRM fours give a max of 8 individual hits. You know what else does this? 8 small lasers. Same weight as the SRMS too! Trade the one ton of srm ammo for a heatsink, medium laser, or armor.
@@StarlightSocialist i know why people like small lasers but uuggghh the range just makes it so inflexible on something like yhe wasp with a bunch of them fine would rather run 3 med lasers then 6 small but it's fine but once you are paying for a frame as big as an assassin is this limiting of versatility is a stright up no go for me. mg and flames at least kill infantry small lasers just have nothing but point blank crit seeking. If you are using a standerd small laser I would alweas change it out for something else even if that something else is more armor or heat sinks or differnt weapons. The only weapon I petsonaly rate worse then the small laser is the srm 2 and yes that includes the ac2 and ac5 that are so inefficient but at least there range makes them have more use then a small laser. Just so it's clear I rate the srm4 and 6 very highly it is just the awful srm2 I hate on. Both the shadowhawk and dervish would be super improved by removing them for other things usaly med lasers especially on the shadowhawk where the 12 heat sinks and wierd jump of 3 works out perfectly with 3 med lasers. That change alone would make the shadow hawk competive against the other 55 toners accept the wvr-6m and even there the better heat effencincy makes it closer then you would expect
Let's be real, HBK-4G is not a death sentence because it is constructed to be one, but because it's a Heavy Mech wearing a costume of a Medium. It's a priority target on the field that wants to get close to the OpFor and inevitably draws a LOT of hurt flying it's way. If you have a Wolverine and Hunchback bearing down on you and you have equal to hit mods for both, it's likely you're going to focus fire 4G. Because it's scary and has a scary gun. Does it mean that Wolverine is a worse mech? No, not really. 4G should have had "Distracting" quirk :D Not because of the lore reasons, but because of the effect it has on players in TT
this is the perfect channel to discover as i'm getting into battletech, such good content! especially as i'm thinking about starting a solo mercenary campaign in 3015 to learn the game haha. now to figure out my first 12 mechs :3
@@nerdyOveranalyzed probably too many questions that i just don't know yet aha. i think the main thing i'm stuck on is just how many of each type of mech would a beginner company have? i was thinking of doing a all light scout lance, an assault and light lance for face-breaking and backstabbing, and a mixed lance for versatility, but i'm not sure if that makes "sense" from the perspective of the succession wars screwing all of the things. i know, not the most hard hitting question ever, but logistics is hard enough when you've got a proper military supply, i can't imagine how bad mercs have it! its kinda funny because i've already got who i want to fight sorted, but my own forces are stuck!
@@lesbianmorgoth652 Chaos Campaign rules are very abstract and are a very useful building block for whatever thing you are homebrewing. A variant of those rules was used for Battle of Tukayyid campaign book, focused on PvP. But you can easily adapt them to solo-play. With abstract or distinct OpFor. Pretty much whatever you want to do. Just pick what you like from them and go from there. I, personally, use them for solo campaigns in MegaMek to simplify the accounting, because I can't be bothered with keeping the spreadsheet for all of the parts. Pay points - fix mech.
I honestly like the Centurion; it's a good, solid mech and you can customize it quite a bit. I like dropping the LRMs for an SRM6, more armor and a closer range brawl.
Excellent, excellent video. I learned a lot, and while I've never been able to be a tabletop man, I found it fascinating how mechs that seemed cursed in Mechwarrior 5 or the Battletech PC game... were cursed in tabletop too! Educational and that speaking slime animation is very distracting, not in a bad way.
One thing I like doing for bodyguards when operating on the Davion-Liao border and short on Vindies is to salvage Liao Blackjacks, cobble together a functional arm for one, and part-buy (or salvage) a Davion Blackjack arm for the one I didn't manage to build. Little bit of tinkering, some reinforcing of the AC arm, and a third-hand AC/5, and you can build something pretty decent, with an AC/5, Large Laser, and two Medium Lasers, as well as reinforcing the cooling loop a little. You can pull the Jump Jets for some more sinks, ammo, or armour, or leave them if you want, either works. But if you pull them, you can fit a second ton of ammo (I recommend flak - the 5 doesn't have the range of the 2, but the damage is far more respectable),and either another sink or thickening up the armour to nearly the max the chassis can carry. Of course, the Vindicator and Wyvern are superior if you're going the salvage route and the Centurion-AL and Discoback more than serviceable if you have the cash for newbuilds, but sometimes you don't have the cashflow for a shiny new (second-hand) mech and the opfor fails to provide what you really want, so it can be a decent way to make something functional out of a mech that's not a full-on LEMON, but certainly tends to have a lemon-scented air-freshener in the cockpit free of charge. If you can get Centurion-ALs though, for the love of Blake pull that right-arm Small Laser and shave off some armour to replace it with the workhorse Medium Laser, as well as flip the rear ML to face forward, please. Similar for the Vindicator, though for that I just rip the Small and its housing out entirely to try to give the poor bastard piloting it a better chance of ejection, and use the freed-up tonnage for some extra armour. The Shadow Hawk CAN be decent, but it basically requires welding half a -K2 to half a -2H or -2D. The Kuritans HORRIBLY oversinked that thing, and if you can pull some of the unneeded sinks in favour of the SRMs and MLs of its other variants it can surprise you, with a decent long-range punch with the PPC and *maybe* also still the LRM-5, and then a good short-range band of mixed MLs and SRMs. Just... try to fit the last two JJs. It's a disgrace that a supposed cav mech doesn't have a full JJ fit. YMMV on whether the manhours are worth it, but if you have a couple absolutely WRECKED SHawks of different variants and not many options... BELATED EDIT: Also, I think there's something to be said for a Hunchie-4P refit that pulls the SL, three of the MLs, and six Sinks for a Blazer and a half-ton of extra armour. Sure, you have to bracket-fire, but you've got a medium-range headcapper and then still five MLs at short range to exploit all the lovely holes you blew in them while trying to hit the cockpit. Other option is to make it a refit of one of the variants like the -4J or -4N, with both a decently-heavy RT energy loadout and some RT missiles, and have only two MLs, a Blazer, and a six-pack of SRMs. Holepunching and critseeking either way, your choice whether you prefer the flexibility of SRMs or the brutal efficiency of MLs!
I have always been enraptured by the Hunchback mech. From the beloved 4G variant that turns it into a force to be reckoned with at close ranges, to the 4P variant that turns that right torso into laser-show-2023, I just can't help loving thay thing.
Any real thoughts on the other varrients I have seen the one with the I think 2 lrm 10 see some good use and unsurprisingly the one with the ac5 and 2 lrm 5 has performed badly the few times I have seen it in action
@@xerty5502 you're picking the variants that tried to do everything. Hunchies work best when given a certain range/weapon to be good at, from a SINGLE ac20(who can knock out even HEAVY mechs) to a laser death show of medium lasers(to really make them focus fire on ya else be pelted with armour destroying lasers), Hunchback mechs WANT to be focused on, and not be in the back lines. Thus keeping attention off of the other mechs in it's lance.
@@macrux152__8 I acualy like the one with the 2 lrm 10 I think it is the second best hunchie in my opinion first being the ac20. The disco is better on paper but just never holds up on the field in my experince and does not have the intimidation value of the ac20
@@xerty5502 While I must agree that the ac20 is the OG of being focused fired upon, I must disagree on the disco-laser-hunchie, I have used it on my lances quite a lot, and it does it's job helping out whatever frontline mech I have(usually a Thunderbolt or a Banshee), it keeps the damage high in close quarters, and if need be, it'll be a good fallback point when the Brawler mech needs some rest. What the Hunchback 4P doesn't do however, is be the flanking mech(something most people expect from a mech with THAT many lasers on), it's a good support mech, you take out whatever it's supporting and you're tantamount to get the Hunchie to fail. Heck even that version with LRM's is a good one, since it does it's role well, it's a discount Trebuchet, but tougher, so punchbot it'll be when the lrm's lose ammo.
Just wanted to say, love your content. But....being a new mercenary command, couldn't we substitute some formations with ad hoc or mixed formations using vehicles instead? Plus, it's a bit more economical sound for a new mercenary command just starting out. Would like to see your analysis on combat vehicles if you could please.
I won't fight you on your rankings of the 40 ton Cicada and Assassin, but most people forget they were designed to scout and fight the most common scouts; Locusts, Stingers, and Wasps. I think they do a good job of this and they can outrun most of their other opposition. I personally love the Cicada 3c. Having one running around in the rear, long range sniping at the backs of heavy mechs, while at full tilt, really disrupts most peoples plans. Even better if you can just strip off the bullet poppers and add more armor.
They can outrun things for sure! I'm not sure I would pay the cash for them but I'm sure you could make them work if you had a few pilots who came with them!
12:04 That was either a last minute "wait it might not be that bad" rating change or a "oh god please don't throw me out the airlock commander" rating change.
@@jasonmonsen7052 that's less of an issue until the armour gets breached, or you get golden BB'd by a lucky TAC. I usually dump the LRM ammunition long before that point.
@@jasonmonsen7052 Hmm, this is also true. I misremembered the MLs being more spread out but I'm looking at the TRO now. Putting everything in one arm is such classic early BT design philosophy. Nothing a quick refit can't fix if you're playing a campaign. I prefer the WVR anyways out of the OG 55s. The 6M is a great generalist machine.
Do you factor in the heatsinking capability? Because some few mechs like the HBK 4P (already S) and the TBT 5S stand out here. The TBT doesn't have the armor to slug it out in the battle line, but it can consistently put out more damage than a lot of heavies because it has the heatsinks to fire all its weapons all the time. Very few introtech mechs can do that and most of those are wasting tonnage with an ac 5.
This is a very strange system of analysis. Take the CRB-20, for example, and place it next to BJ-1DB and LNC25-02, machines which have respectively been granted ranks of S, C+, and B+. All are entirely energy based, possess no negative inherent engineering flaws, and make use of broadly similar weaponry and armor profiles. The Crab retails at (approximately) 3,900,000 C-bills, the Blackjack at 3,100,000, and the Lancelot at 4,700,000. At cost, we would expect (approximately) 80% performance from the 1DB, and 120% from the Lancelot if they were to be estimated as equivalent. Given the ratings provided, we should instead expect at least a standard deviation of performance in favor of the Crab, if not 2 when compared to the Blackjack. Instead, what we find is something entirely different. The CRB-20 carries a main armament of 2 large lasers, dealing a theoretical 1 ton of armor damage over a 10 second operational snapshot, running a minimal heat deficit when stationary. The BJ-1DB carries a main armament of 2 large lasers, dealing the same 1 ton of armor damage in that time-frame. Yet, doing so while operating at combat speed and with net 0 heat. The LNC25-02 carries a main armament of 2 large lasers and 1 particle projector cannon, dealing a theoretical 1.625 tons of damage, but generating 7 units of heat when doing so. More realistically, the LNC25-02 may choose to fire only a single large laser, resulting in 1.125 tons of damage, but no excess heat while at cruise speed. Offensively, this demonstrates, even bill-for-bill, a significant advantage for the Blackjack, where the less expensive machine also sports 2 medium lasers for additional close-range firepower, compared to the Crab's 1, and increased heat control and alpha-strike potential. Similarly, the Lancelot compares to the Crab when accounting for excess heat buildup, while offering an even more exceptionally powerful alpha-strike, compounded with an advantage in range and the ability to deliver larger damage groupings (notably allowing for disabling blows against mechs like the Locust, overcoming the half-ton of armor which typically defends them from large laser fire, as well as critical hits on the head of any mech), and while of difficult value to quantify all these capabilities are delivered on a platform capable of reliable antiaircraft fire. The CRB-20 mounts 9 tons of armor, reasonably well distributed, but less than one half-ton on any rear location. The BJ-1DB mounts 7.5 tons of armor, with a similar distribution and weakness. The LNC25-02 mounts 9.5 tons of armor, is fully protected from heavy weapons fire everywhere excepting its head, but also boasts an extraordinarily ergonomic design which in active combat scenarios, when engaging foes at medium range or longer, results in upwards of 25% increased durability - and as much as 50% in a not insignificant number of scenarios. Defensively, this places the Blackjack at just noticeably above-expected comparative levels of protection (83%), and the Lancelot at a significant quantitative advantage (132%), not to mention significantly improved defense against out-flanking. Where the vehicles diverge most - and potentially where the CRB-20 might excel - is in maneuverability. However, even here we find a distinct lack of significant tactical advantage. Against lighter foes, the 250 rated Magna fusion engine provides little benefit, leaving the mech high and dry against mobile units like the Locust or Phoenix Hawk. Additionally, though its higher top speed allows for greater flexibility over flat ground than the units being compared here, it's comparative poor heat management prevents it from maintaining that advantage for more than 50% of it's operational window even when not making use of its secondary armament. Conversely, the 4 Whitworth Jetlift pattern jump jets mounted by the BJ-1DB allow for a great degree of tactical flexibility over rough terrain, while still keeping pace with most mainline battlemechs - all without having to worry about heat buildup when firing its primary weapons after a jump. Overall, I believe it is reasonable from this data to conclude that if anything these ratings should be reversed. Not only is the BJ-1DB a more cost-efficient machine, its capabilities quite nearly match those of the CRB-20 even when not factoring in expense. Similarly, the LNC25-02 fairs better both offensively and defensively in a price analysis and massively outperforms on a mech-to-mech basis.
Lancelot is a 60 tonner, but was put in this list to compare it against the majority of bodyguard mechs, so I think that should give it a bit of negative for being overweight, or rather more costly than comparable mediums. It has "bad reputation," which lowers cost effectiveness but has Anti-Air Targeting and Narrow/Low Profile to make up for it. Blackjack just has "bad reputation." Both have lower resale value from a campaign perspective, so it might be worth considering for some. Both mechs have low leg armour; if used without cover they'll get legged fairly often. Plus, since neither have actuators or hands in their arms if/when they do get knocked down they'll have a hard time getting back up. Both are also a bit slower than the Crab, even though the BJ has jumpjets. Those JJs work but are hot, and not something the BJ can use while firing both main guns. It adds flexibility but the BJ does need to worry about heat a bit more. From a TMM perspective, the BJ/LNC can reach TMM +2 at times while running or the BJ reliably while jumping, the Crab can reach +2 reliably while running (including turns/terrain) or +3 if going straight. For the BJ to reliably reach +2 TMM, it has to add +1 onto its own to-hit rolls and take on extra heat which decreases its damage output at longer ranges. If walking, the BJ/LNC caps at a +1 TMM while the Crab can hit +2. The numbers seem small, but since we're rolling 2D6 even a single point difference can help lower to-hit odds by quite a bit, especially once you get to 7+ To-Hit. The Crab's easy to maintain helps a lot in campaigns, and its claws/hands provide some extra utility during raids. The Crab is a good pick since it can fit into most roles pretty well (outside scout), and is a good all-rounder. Both the BJ and LNC are slow for a medium, making them decent front-liners but not good cav. The extra leg armour may seem a bit much, but with nothing to explode in it a Crab has a good chance of running away even after both side torsos have been destroyed. Even half-dead it is still a 1ML/1SL zombie, whereas all BJ-1DB weapons are arm mounted. A few lucky shots can disarm or disleg a BJ in comparison. The LNC is better, having both a PPC and ML outside the arms, and slightly more armour in general. The Crab has more critpadding in the CT than the BJ (LNC has more than both), as well as in the head. This is getting a bit nitpicky, but there you go. I like all 3 mechs, but I see enough reasoning to give the rankings made in the video here.
@@jasonmonsen7052 well weight doesn't really matter, and actually serves strictly as an advantage, allowing the Lancelot to deliver more powerful kicks, which should be considered a net positive for the machine. As for price, it is in-line with most heavier medium mechs, and actually costs less than models like the Wolverine, Dervish, and Gladiator. Realistically, its bad reputation is not a significant detractor, and the only situation it might arise in is one where the mech has been severely damaged, and even then the narrow profile it presents means it is much less likely to end up in that situation in the first place. It cannot be overemphasized how powerful that defensive quality is, particularly in an age that has forgotten the targeting computer and pulse laser. As for leg armor, the Lancelot more than makes up for it with increased torso armor and a non-insignificant amount of rear armor, something which the Crab serious lacks, and the Blackjack can be explained by costing significantly less than the Crab, while maintaining nearly identical armor everywhere except the legs. A lack of actuators comes with some drawbacks, yes, but they are equaled or excelled by the added ability to perform an arm flip, greatly enhancing the ability to threaten multiple angles and serve as a bodyguard and sniper. A Crab firing both Large Lasers and running generates 2 heat, a Blackjack firing both Large Lasers and jumping its full distance generates 3. The Crab begins to suffer penalties from heat at 5, the Blackjack at 8. Even something as simple as crossing a single hex of depth 1 water will totally eliminate any movement advantage the Crab has. Over a flat, featureless plain, yes the Crab has an advantage in movement, but add just a few heavy woods, rivers, or hills, or god forbid an urban environment, and the speed it might theoretically achieve evaporates. While it is undeniably faster than the Lancelot, that is simply a role the heavier mech is not designed to fill. It is a fire support mech which excels in a brawling or sniping position, but can also hold its own against cavalry and protect other heavier support units from being outflanked. The Crab's reliance on still relatively slow ground based movement means it is also easy to block for your OpFor, and has trouble achieving a rear attack the way jumping mechs can. The problem with the Crab is that it isn't really a jack of all trades. There exist many other, much more efficient mechs which fill the same roles, and a ground-slogger with low brawling capabilities and decent speed just doesn't make it stand out against the competition. Think of the aforementioned Wolverine or Gladiator; mechs which maintain the same speed, but sport 5 jump jets as well, and a much more robust close-range armament, on top of increased armor - not to mention mechs like the Ostroc, Cronos, or Merlin, which will easily outperform the Crab in every potential role. The fact is that there are a long list of machines I would have to pass over before I selected a Crab, regardless of what sort of position within a lance or larger formation I was trying to fill, even as a switch-hitter. The same just isn't true for the Lancelot and Blackjack, they are very nearly best-in-class at what they do, with even very solid mechs which cost upwards of 1,000,000 c-bills more remaining not strictly upgrades, and while there might be places where they don't fit, those places are better filled by mechs which compliment their abilities and synergize together, rather than a master-of-none like the Crab.
I've always been confused by the term Trooper and never have really used it in my analysis. To me it's not very descriptive to a player as what that role fills. What does the Trooper role mean to you? What job does it fill and how is it different than the bodyguard role?
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I know its past 4th of July here in the US, but who doesn't love fireworks anytime of year...I say leave the ammo in and go give the enemy hugs that go boom with bright colors 🤣
I was curious. I have an old Shadowhawk that belonged to my family that over the centuries was modded for use as a dragoon. The SRM, AC-5, and Ammo bins were removed and in there place was armed with a large laser, an extra medium laser and 3 extra heat sinks giving the max damage output of 23. I’ve often had it compared to the Steiners Griffin 1S but given the Shadowhawks superior hand actuators and better armored cockpit this build functions better for a Shadowhawk than it does for the griffin. As far as I know this was a one off my great grandfather had built for his time in the opening years of the third succession war and she’s served well in her role as a brawler and dragoon but I’m no engineer so I leave that to you to judge. Should I bring her out of the estates bay to use full time or should I just stick to the Griffin 1S I stol……….erm I mean purchased from a still very much alive and in no way shot and left moldering in an outhouse Steiner pilot, for use in my company?
So I am confused about a bunch of the context for things like when you say the AC/10 for the CN9-A is "One of the worst ever designed" like how is it different from any other AC on the market? And availability for maintenance parts, I have played MechWarrior 5 so I do have a basic idea that you aren't just always gonna find a certain weapon or mech being sold, some are more common but I haven't experienced mechs being HARD to maintain, just expensive to do so. For tabletop I have only played the "Game of armored combat" box and read some of the battlemech manual because the rules for all the things like planes and troops seem super complicated so are these just all advanced rules from the total warfare book or from the other advanced books above that?
@@nerdyOveranalyzed So when you make these videos, what conditions is the information provided usable in, I really do like your videos a lot because I can use the info to make good lances for one off mech vs mech only games I play but are these tier lists only really meant for campaign play?
@@Pubmaster32if you dont play campaigns these videos are still useful, just ignore it when the funny slime guy says "this mech uses non standard parts so its gonna be expensive to maintain for a campaign"
Would love to see how much damage a lance of high tier medium mechs could do to Wallstreet and New York city before they were defeated. Excellent video
As frustrating as it is that it can't fire all of its main weapons at once, it still has better firepower at all ranges than the Crab, and with better armor. It's just slower.
@@gigastrike2 If custom designs are allowed, you can replace the PPC with a third large laser and add two heat sinks. Still not heat neutral, but can cycle fire like an Awesome does. Very fun.
A simple but effective refit for the Dervish is to swap out one of the LRM-10s and a ton of ammo for an SRM-6 and use the extra 3-4 tons for armor and a heatsink or two. You can even shift the ammo around and have one of its SRM-2s carry inferno missiles if you're feeling cheeky.
The VL-2T Vulcan is kind of a victim of gameplay vs fluff disparity IMO. That AC/2 should realistically be a terror against infantry rather than an ineffectual plinker, enabling it to just one-sidedly slaughter most infantry when meeting them in terrain open enough to give it a line of fire that makes use of that range. That'd make it a highly specialised design, but one that absolutely would perform well in the role it was built for. The realities of the Succession Wars still mean it's going to struggle a lot, but it wouldn't be a complete flop. As for the Shadow Hawk... really all it needs is to do to become an outstanding cavalry mech is ditching that SRM-2 and its ammo for a pair of medium lasers.
Yes, the Shadowhawk 2H is almost spectacularly unimpressive. It has issues very similar to the ones people have no trouble condemning the Assassin or Vulcan for. It's just bigger. It kicks and punches pretty well, but half its armament has minimum ranges.
The biggest problem with the Shadowhawk 2H is the same one that makes the Assassin so undergunned: the LRM-5 and SRM-2 are supremely tonnage-inefficient when you factor in ammunition. The two combined are three tons of weapon with two tons of ammo-- the equivalent of packing seven tons of ammo for a single LRM-20. If the mech had picked either LRMs or SRMs, it could have had two LRM-5s or two SRM-4s; either would be a firepower upgrade and give the mech a defined role. Instead, it tries to do everything, and consequently fails at everything.
I feel like CDA-3F is a bit unfavorably rated. I understand that you're focusing on larger conflicts - but in small scale, lance vs lance battles, where getting destroyed in one volley is not a concern for something as dodgy as the Cicada (due to a smaller volume of fire), it performs really well as a flanker. A lot of mechs just can't take a PPC/MG salvo to their back and live to tell the tale, and the mech would be moving too fast to be hit with any sort of consistency.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed One thing i've completely forgot to mention: 3F has a lot more armor than default CDA, 15 all around, without compromising speed *or* firepower.
I know this comment is over a year old, but I wanted to mention that I looked at the cost break down on Megamek and compared to prices in the Tech Manual and Tactical Operations books. Megamek is the correct price. Likely Sarna isn't accounting for the price of the Full Head Ejection System (1.7M C-bills before weight or other multipliers).
12:00 I created my own version of the Sahdow Hawk called the Sniper Hawk. CCP with 2x LRM10 & 1x LRM5. With the jump packs removed, the fights from a distance, pounding the enemy & allowing faster mechs like the Puma or Firestarter to flank. I all so have a Centurion with a similar loadout.
Definitely agree that the CN9-AL is better off than the CN9-A. Depending on the extent of refitting allowed (table variance and all that), I feel like all the Centurion variants should move the LRM10 and its ammo to the right torso. That and drop a ton of LRM ammo for more armor.
Crabs are real solid. Probably my favorite mediums. If you can kit one out with endosteel structure, you free up some weight to address the armor issue in MW5. There are so many variants of them that you could have a whole lance of Crabs and each one is different.
An excellent tier list. But you are wrong about the Shadow Hawk. It is perfect in all things... at least with the right customization. Drop the AC, pick up a large laser in it's place. Upgrade the SRM to a 4 pack which still fits in the head, add the missing jump jets, and increase the armor. It's better at splitting the difference between the Griffin and the Wolverine. It can still hit all the range brackets to help in any fight, it has maxed out armor for durability, and each side torso has only a 20% chance of the boom. It doesn't have quite enough heat sinks, but enough to give it some sustain. It's the design the Shadow Hawk should have had. We'll dub it the Shadow Hawk Slime-X1
I do like the Large Laser upgrade, my Shadow Hawk video suggests a refit that's somewhat similar to the one you suggested! Unfortunately for this video I decided to do an analysis just on the original varients.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I've gotten way more use out of Shadow Hawks then Griffins in my Medium to Medium/Light lances. Unless I have a Star League era Griffin, all other variants get immediately sold/scraped. This is coming from BTA 3062 gameplay, and I have never had satisfactory results from Griffins.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I have had great results by removing the extra heat sinks, bringing the jump jets to five, installing a second medium laser on the left arm and replacing the SRM-2 with another LRM 5. Heat management becomes something you finally have to think about but you have a very versatile mech for 3025. At long ranges you have 10 LRM shots and an AC5. For in close you have two medium lasers backing up the AC5. It really benefits from having another non ammunition dependent weapon. Pair it with a Griffin for extra fun.
The Clint really needs a bit more love, especially since it's better as a light skirmisher or anti-scout than as a pure scout itself. paired with a Hermes II and you have a fairly effective bully pair for dealing with lights or whittling down larger mechs
I usually pair a hunchback with heavy mechs, either as a guard dog mech for LRM fire support lance, or a line breaker grouped with the likes of a Warhammer and Marauder.
I've had nothing but regrets running the Cicada, Clint, and Assassin. I remember doing a joint op and the other commander had their Assassin lose a flank to a Panther. That whole fight was a wash. That's not even getting into the Cicada's horrible habit of getting legchopped.
The hunchback 4G and 4P make excellant partner mechs. One problem with the 4G is that it scares opponents and if not accounted for can lead the mech to being usless by being focused down or ran from. If accounted for allows for some control over opponent's movment. The hardest quality to quantify is the physiological affect some units have, be it ignored or feared. For example, Charger 1a1 is largly ignore untill it charges a mech and punts it off the map, off a high elevation, or into water. Berserker is on thr other end of the scale it is feared. Due to the 20 to 40 point axe it is target down and ran from. The whitworth 1s is a good varient. Little low on armor for a close range mech, but jump jets help a lot. The problem is that it is rare. Would be easer to retrofit a WTH-1 to 1S loadout then to find a stock 1S.
So I am strongly going to disagree with you about the Hunchback 4p. Your math is correct on paper, but the usage of the weapons while trying to maintain heat with such limited heat sink means that it rarely if ever is able to use its primary armament for very long. The 4g is a much better design as its sustained damage is far more crippling given the crush-through effect the AC20 has. Being able to remove limbs with one shot, able to stay cooler while using its full primary armament, and having a greater amount of that damage focused on one spot makes it a much greater threat for much cheaper in both c-bills, and BV.
Feel free to disagree Commander! I would suggest when walking or running firing 7 medium lasers. This will net a total of 0 or -1 heat. When you stand still in cover fire 8 medium lasers. This will net a total of 1 heat. If your heat gets too high just turn off a few medium lasers for a turn. Hope that helps!
Centurion is a classic, and I want to love it, but beyond the shield arm, I find it hard to use without some extensive modifications - basically going full on Yen Lo Wang. Blackjack, I like - it is an easy mech to overlook, I think, and it benefits from being deployed in numbers. AC-2 is horrible against anything but the lightest mechs and armour, but the mech itself is mobile, has jump capability and 4 MLs are nothing to laugh at. I do enjoy the Vindicator, due to it being a decent sniper, but I find its incredibly unfocused weapon loadout weird. If not for decent protection and a PPC, it would be basically a Shadowhawk clone. Still, probably the most versatile design if you also want jump jets along. Speaking of Shadowhawk - a weird soldier mech design. It can't really deal much damage on its own. It is a classic, but it has some of the smallest weapons of each category - it can do it all... but nothing well. But at least it will last, which is an admirable quality for a medium mech. And it does not sacrifice mobility. A bit like a Blackjack, it is best used in numbers. Griffin - I find it overly specialised for what it does. Now two mechs that I can always recommend - Hunchback and Crab. Hunchback is a beast that, depending on variant can do just about anything... AND DO IT WELL enough. AC20 variant is a thing that can't really be ignored no matter what weight bracket we are talking about. The laser vomit Hunchie is a horrible abomination that shreds anything lighter than itself, and opens other targets for damage. There are also lurm variants, if memory serves me right. You can have a hunchback for pretty much every possible role, maybe except scouting and jumping around. And Crab - fast, agile, easy to maintain, if I remember - a good merc company pick. A fast, not terribly protected, and with a very good punch. we are talking about dual large lasers and basically no heat issues. These things are hilarious - sniping and running around both - very good skirmisher mechs that can somewhat work on the frontline when necessary.
Disregard c-bills. Acquire crab.
🦀 🦀 🦀
My plan for my next MW5 lance is to go for all Crabs, be they the Flea (a type of Crab) regular Crabs, or King Crabs.
@@downixif you're going 3100s, there's also now the 25-ton Hermit Crab!
Reject luxuries, embrace crustacean
I made a crab with 2 binary lasers and 2 er mediums... It was a monster and very cool since the rest of the tons goes to DHS.
Tbh, the main attraction of the HBK-4G is not it's ability to score deadly hits, but it's ability to generate a response from the OpFor. Like a less prone to dying instantly Saladin. It's not fast, it doesn't shoot far, it's hit or miss, but by Blake you can't just *ignore* it. You have to give it attention. Preferably a significant amount of attention. So in a normal usual fight, 4G is unlikely to achieve anything spectacular, unless it lands that golden shot. But it's very likely to shift the tactical situation in your favour if you position it just right - denying space to the enemy and forcing OpFor to either manoeuvre around 4G or allocate a lot of firepower to disable it (firepower that isn't concentrated on your other stuff, mind you).
EDIT: Also, Swayback quite often struggles against *fat* targets. Unsurprisingly. It has way more potential damage that 4G and much more consistency with redundant weapon systems, but it often - in my experience - struggles to punch above it's weight. Which is the attraction of the 4G. But I do love Swayback dearly and use it, probably, more than 4G.
Mhmm very true on both points Commander! Everybody gangster til the AC/20 rounds start flying. And very true for the Discoback. It needs something to punch a hole first.
I’d also argue the whitworth is a great mech, as you get the benifits of being a trebuchet which can actually jump, or a dervish which isn’t a cleverly disguised bomb.
@@baker90338 I personally have a soft spot for Whitworth. It's a "good enough" fire support mech, that works reasonably well and quite fun to field. I like to field them alongside Hatamoto-Chi for my DCMS Force prior and in the early CI.
Hunchback is almost like a smaller Atlas in that regard. Enemy just can't help but fire on it.
@@laz272727 40k has a nice term for this type of units: "Distraction Carnifex". Draws attention, scary if left unchecked, probably will achieve nothing, will save your other stuff from being shot at and will win you positional advantage
I'm new to the Battletech franchise. Thank you very much talking slime for these awesome in-character breakdowns, it's been fun seeing how mediums and heavies try to form their battlelines
I love taking contracts fighting Liao, sure it is tough but the salvage is worth it and everyone loves you for doing it. Supporting a lance of Vindicators by fighting house lmao is basically living off the land for mercenaries.
lol yeah. I honestly wouldn't mind fighting them just to salvage a few D:
Vindicator and Raven salvage is why I take missions against House LIao. Favorite light mech, and a really solid medium.
"House Lmao" I love it.👍
@@HeadHunterSix What is a great house that can’t build assault mechs but a joke?
@@yoloman3607 I don't know that I'd call them a "Great" House. 🤣
Happy this list is here! As commander of the Red Sash mercenary group (est. 3010), I will share my experience. Despite being built around heavy lances, for the most part, there is at least one medium mech in every mech lance within the Sashes. In most cases, the medium mechs in the heavy lances are what you label a cavalry or scout mech, in order to give mobility and a bit of scouting ability to the lance. Due to a long period of time fighting the Capellans and being in or around the Free Worlds border, we have picked up a large number of Wolverines, most of them the WVR-6M variant. The Wolverines have been very effective. The Phoenix Hawk is a special mech, my highest scoring pilot used one for a period before upgrading to an Exterminator and eventually leaving to form our sister company the Gold Sashes. We do have a Wyvern in the company, but alas, it has never really done that well. I am not sure if it is bad luck or just not meshing well with the rest of the lance and the tactics used, but I feel the Wyvern really demands a top pilot to get much out of it. Not really a fan of the Griffin GRF-1N. I feel its all long range weapons and poor heat efficiency really let it down. In my experience, if you push in close and keep the pressure on the GRF-1N, it tends to fall apart. As far as custom variants from the Sashes go, a favorite is a custom variant of the Hermes II. We replace the AC/5 with a large and medium laser, with the remaining weight going to heatsinks. This dramatically increases the firepower of the stock Hermes II, while still leaving a long range weapon. Stay safe fellow mercenaries.
o7
I'm so hyped for this. Such a good series. Thanks a ton!
You're welcome Commander! Glad you enjoyed it!
This is such an excellent series. Really opened my eyes to the wide array of mech uses beyond just walk and shoot in mechwarrior games. I have a new appreciation for locusts, Phoenix hawks, and centurions.
I think that's the most generous anyone has ever been about a Vulcan
He clearly enjoys mechs that stack a lot of medium lasers. To be fair, such mechs are certainly worth enjoying.
the 5T is quite good!
I’ll have to give it a shot sometime then. Never heard a good thing about it till now.
Nah. The -5T was always a great design. Vulcan hate is entirely down to the -2T and the folly of putting on that AC/2.
Hot damn, I started following you last week and was hoping Id see a new upload. Your videos really helped me getting the basics of the game down! Thanks!
Welcome aboard Commander! o7 Glad you're enjoying.
Hatchetman's main issue is slapping an AC-10 on something so light.
Ranking by c-bill and logistics fails to account for the most important factor in the analysis: 80% of games run by BV alone with only passing thought put towards fluff.
Great job again, Otto. It was worth the wait. Can't wait to see the Assault Mech group. 👍
My favorite is actually a modified CRB-27SL Crab. I remove the Medium Laser and one of the Large Pulse Lasers, replace them with a Snub-Nose PPC and 2 Small Lasers, add two Double IS heatsinks and drop down to 3 jump jets. Now I can jump and alpha strike without even gaining heat. I called him Fiddler.
I hope to someday see lists like these for all eras of play.
:)
the content machine goes brrrrr
I wish there was more content for the newer eras like the ill clans, I have seen the succession wars many times but have barely seen what happens after that.
@@ghoulbuster1 there's a few reasons for that but the primary one is that most people tend to play 3025 through the Clan invasion.
To be honest, I've never found any of the subsequent lore to be particularly interesting and the glut of advanced systems and technologies (for me) removes many of the interesting choices I have to make as a player. DHS make heat management less difficult and weapons like the heavy PPC, clan ERPPC, and all the flavours of Gauss result in unit makeups that favour (at least, lean into) early headcapping. Introtech may be limited, but the limitations are fun to try to optimize.
Great video! I think my medium list would match up nearly exactly, The Hermes 2 is very underrated for its role because of the "40 ton curse", but its a solid mech to add to any heavy recon force. Definitely nice to see the Centurion AL get some love, its one of my favorite mechs and among the best overall trooper mechs, cheap, respectable armor and damage, and most importantly a cool design!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video I do quite enjoy the look and design of the Centurion myself!
I just got into battletech and love you stuff, really excited you made another tier list!
Welcome aboard Commander! Glad you enjoy them!
I think the Centurion would rate better on the "12-round battle" criteria if one ton of ammo for the AC and the LRM were replaced with more armor - as it would have sufficient ammo with one ton each, rather than two (assuming the opening rounds are at long range, where the LRM is effective, but AC ammo is conserved).
Yes very true! The Centurion does need more armor to perform.
That and the rear facing laser moved to the front. I guess mwo spoiled me on that 😂😂
Awesome work! As someone coming from hbs battletech, it's interesting getting a different perspective - specifically one that doesn't have Yang, the god of mechtechs, able to completely modify anything into anything.
I'm very excited for the assault tier list, even if it's just so I can cry when my favs get low ratings, lol.
Also, drunk slime doing a clan-only list would be funny just for you to shrug and go "they're omnimechs, just pick one" 😂
Also one that has to deal with things like infantry
7:54 oh you better believe we're doing it, I want a Clint and we're having a Clint 😎.
D:
Variants I've had good runs with that weren't covered:
Sentinel -3KA, drops the ac for a large laser, some additional heat sinks, and most importantly: more armor.
Hunchback 4H, swapping the 20 for a 10 and 2 more medium lasers is nice, but the best part is that it crit pads that ammo bomb in the left torso with heat sinks by moving them from the legs.
Heyyy good to see you again Dakka! The Hunchback 4H sounds decent enough as a bodyguard
Every single one of my favorite medium mechs has at least one autocannon or PPC. It always causes me a little bit of pain when you dis on the ballistic versions of a mech I love, only to recommend the variant that replaces the guns with laser vomit. I don't hate lasers, but they aren't as visceral and satisfying. If your torso isn't full of enough high explosive to celebrate American independence day when a SRM crits your ammo bin, you aren't really getting the full Battletech experience.
Ac/5 are in a very very rough place there range bracket is a good one there heat to damage ratio is great but there weight to damage ratio is lacking. I personally feel the community hates on them far to much but despite that i have to admit that in mechs any way they are just to weight inefficient to be considerd good. They however do have a place in ice vehicles though if you can spare the weight the ac/10 is almost always better accept for aa duties were the ac5 is really good.
@@xerty5502 I use lots of light tanks, so I make pretty heavy use of the AC-5. I actually quite like the UAC-5 and LBX-5s on my custom mechs. The basic AC-5 is a little lacking on damage output though.
@@Kitkat-986 oh I use it a fair amount to and it is not the damage that kets it down its the damage to weight ratio. I actually like the ppc ac5 combo better then 2 ppc at least until double heat sinks show up then the base ac5 turns into trash
@@xerty5502 Pretty low BV cost though, so it's not all bad.
@@Kitkat-986 true enough though I do not particularly like bv it does not do a good enough job of setting comparative values it is better then any other metrics bt has ever used but still not good at all
I'll be real, I only just "hired" you and the task I have in mind is rather large but here it is. I want to expand our mercenary outfit to include a company of combat vehicles. Can you use your evaluation matrix to compare them and make some recommendations?
As a grognard of the AC/5 mafia..... we still gonna need to make you swim with the fishes for that slander of the much "respected" Shadowhawk
I mean, you can try. But with an AC/5 as your main weapon? Good luck lol. 😎😎😎
A solid modification to the dervish is to axe thr SRMs for 2 more medium lasers and swap the LRM-10s for a pair of 5s each and use the saved mass from that and no SRM Ammo to add 2 heatsinks and 2 tons of armor.
Yay! Been looking forward to the Medium overview video for some time. Thanks for creating this.
"So the Centurion has a problematic AC/10 and Missile Launchers? Eh, out those go in favor of an AC/20 and that left hand is now a melee weapon"
- some guy named Justin
Another great video in this series. Love how you balance tabletop performance with lore snippets from the TROs.
The zoom at 12:01 felt like a threat.
Hey Sven! Sorry I missed your message the other day. I responded but RUclips decided to assign it to someone else. D:
Glad you're enjoying the series. And yeah I did have fun with the editing. Hope all is well with you!
I confess I came here "just" for the crabs... But remained because of the disco hunchback! XD
🦀🦀🦀
My fellow man, the disco Hunchie is just love. I would suggest also getting the OG Hunchie tho, dat ac20. It's like a larger brother of the trashca-Urbanmech.
@@macrux152__8 My med/light extended lance would be 2 Locust1Vb, 1 Phoenix Hawk 3K, a Crab 27b and a second Crab27b or a Wolvie6M. However, tournaments tend to enforce a limit of 6 mechs at most, capped at year 3055-3057, and 6k of battle value with only official mechs (else, my crabs would carry jumpjets...)
FINALLY! I've been waiting for this!
Hooray! Hope you enjoy it!
Before you even said anything about crab's specs, the moment I saw that design my brain screamed.
PERFECTION!
Having battle experience with just most of these (either piloting or working alongside/against), I can confirm that your rankings are pretty close to my experience. One note about the Shadow Hawk: while it isn't particularly good at anything, it can do a little bit of _everything,_ which is itself valuable in a small merc unit.
Best part about Shadow Hawk is the fact that it can comfortably support your other mechs at any range. Need to add a bit more shooting down range? Shadow Hawk. Need to add a bit more shooting close up? Shadow Hawk. It's not taking the first prize in anything at all, but it's a very versatile machine that is comfortable to pilot. You can put your greener guys inside and it's unlikely that they are gonna off themselves with failed PSRs.
Sounds good! We don't have to agree on everything Commander! We can deploy the Shadow Hawks if you want!
Believe me, I'd rather take almost any other 55-tonner. It's more a case of "make do with what you've got," and Shadow Hawks are pretty easy to get
Incredible Vibery
Adorable editing
Good work
Thank You
Of each category, I'd say my favorites are the following:
Bodyguard: Wyvern WVE-6N. Solid weapons and versatile loadout, rugged, and well-protected.
Scout: Phoenix Hawk PHX-1D. Really easy to source parts for and a great command mech for scout and striker lances.
Cavalry: Wolverine WVR-6M. It's got command capabilities, extended torso twisting, jump capability, and both piercing and crit seeking capability, what's not to like?
Ranged Cav: Trebuchet TBT-5N. It's equally competent at most ranges, making it one of a few LRM boats that isn't totally screwed if caught without protection point-blank.
Unique: Hunchback in general. Name a role, there's a Hunchback variant that can do it (except for scouting, unless you prefer to conduct recon Steiner style). It's also durable enough to be considered a "pocket heavy". For the base HBK-4G, the low ammo supply can be mitigated by using caseless ammo, which lets you double your ammo capacity for a very slight chance of jamming your gun.
Honorable mention: Cicada CDA-3C. I would argue classing this variant as a scout is inaccurate, it's a sniper/skirmisher. Having a PPC on something that fast in 3025 is REALLY nice.
Always look forward to these. I'm sure I'll watch this one a dozen or so times as well.
I think the biggest difference between how you analyze mechs and how I do would be that I put a lot of weight into the BV cost since I don't look at it in terms of a campaign.
The Griffin has good armor and mobility, and I like the PPC and LRM 15, but it's one of the more expensive (in BV terms) medium mechs. So the BV per armor and BV per damage per round actually isn't that great. I struggle to put it into a lance because of the cost. As a comparison, the Trebuchet's armor is worse, but damage potential is better for about 180 less BV.
The Wolverine is one where I need to lighten up a little. I normally love an SRM 6, but for some reason, I can't get myself to put a Wolverine in a lance.
I really hope Catalyst Games Labs updates the Wyvern and makes a new mini. I love the Wyvern and the Vindicator both. They just seem cool to me.
The biggest surprise to me is probably the Crab. I actually like the Crab, but I feel like it's irrational. I just like that you can throw two big piercing weapons in a lance for under 1150 BV. I feel like it's just shy of being great. Some jump jets or a few medium lasers or something. I'll have to take another look at it, taking your rating into consideration.
I like the centurion for its low cost and AC/10. If I only have a little BV left for my last lance slot and I don't need something specific, I'm happy to throw a Centurion in.
Finally, the Kintaro is one of those mechs that I love in theory, but I'm terrified to use. The armor is quite good for the BV cost and all those SRM 6s are very efficient for BV per damage. But there's just so much ammo. But this is another good example of why it's hard for me to use a Wolverine. For just ~80 more BV, you get triple the SRMs and 20ish more armor.
Yeah, for the analysis I wanted to do it more roleplay wise and decided to do C-bills instead of BV. I think it worked because of the addition fun of being able to immerse the viewer into the universe.
Biggest travesty of the Crab is lack of N/LP Quirk. It has to have it. It looks the part. But for some reason, Cauldron-Born gets it, while Crab doesn't. Absolute crime against Crabkind
@@nerdyOveranalyzed it's very fun :)
Oh yes! Been waiting for this one!
Enjoy it!
Wooo! Been waiting for this!
Ayyyyy! At long last! Hope you enjoy it!
I have a surprising amount of love for the vindicator. In both battletech and mechwarrior games. The mech just seems to WORK. and has a surprising amount of flexibility for personality. IMO a better, more complete centurion. For once liao got that special sauce
Liao doesn't have a whole lot going for them, but when they get it right, they get it really right. The Vindicator, Raven, and Cataphract are all proof that necessity is the mother of invention.
I’ve been waiting for this, thanks!
Glad you enjoyed!
I have been anticipating this weight class since you first started. Excellent breakdown. I think the very first time I played BattleTech I was driving a Hunchback. I had no idea what I was doing then, but I had fun.
I have nothing but love for the Phoenix Hawk. I always had the MGs taken out for either more heatsinks or substitute them with SLs to make it a deadly flanker and backstabber. Pair it up with a dedicated heavy brawler and look out.
The funny thing about the phawk is that when ever I take the MG's I wish i had not the moment I take the varrient without them I find I desperately need them.
Buy crabs...
🦀 yis 🦀
Crabs are legendary for their battle prowess in cqc
Brilliant work!!!!! I cannot express how well done your videos are, they inspire me to strap in and blow chunks of armour off💥
Thanks! Glad it was helpful for you Commander! o7
Appreciate the fact you rated some variants as well. I’ve often found a questionable mech in its standard form is much improved with a few weapons swapped.
it saddens me to know we'll never get more quality content like this
How come?
@@WeOnlyEatSoupMore or less retired from youtube due to irl stuff... community tab seems like he might be back soon-ish though.
@@NeroLordofChaos sad to hear love his content, hope everything is ok
This stuff has been such a help to me starting this game.
all your videos are so good, thanks again!
I have a chronic problem. I am determined to make the assassin into something useable. Had some success (that might have been a fluke) swapping out the LRM 5, SRM 2 and 1 ton of ammo for 2 srm 4s with 1 ton of ammo total on the 101 and running it like a faster javelin and lightswatter
I get some mileage out of the Assassin in the HBS game, thanks to the targeting bonus it gets. I never tried it on tabletop, but swapping out that LRM for an SRM is a solid plan.
The Assassin's weapon load out has always confused me. You've got a fast, jump capable 40 ton mech . . . .and you give it a missile-skirmisher weapon set? (My favorite mech is the stalker, btw). One, the assassin isn't suited to that role. Two, it's way too light to have weapons split in a long range group and a short range group. That's a good choice for heavier designs when heat is the limiting factor, not tonnage. Totally baffling.
So, what should it have instead? What is the assassin's identity? Well, it's a fat light mech. Since it still goes fast, this wastes tonnage compared to a 35 ton design, but gives you more structure points, potentially more armor, and most of all, more damaging physicals. So whatever weapons it's got, it should keep its arms and legs free. This things job is to jump behind a target, and well, assassinate them. SRMS are a good weapon, but they trade raw damage for range and utility. 2 SRM fours give a max of 8 individual hits. You know what else does this? 8 small lasers. Same weight as the SRMS too! Trade the one ton of srm ammo for a heatsink, medium laser, or armor.
@@StarlightSocialist i know why people like small lasers but uuggghh the range just makes it so inflexible on something like yhe wasp with a bunch of them fine would rather run 3 med lasers then 6 small but it's fine but once you are paying for a frame as big as an assassin is this limiting of versatility is a stright up no go for me. mg and flames at least kill infantry small lasers just have nothing but point blank crit seeking. If you are using a standerd small laser I would alweas change it out for something else even if that something else is more armor or heat sinks or differnt weapons. The only weapon I petsonaly rate worse then the small laser is the srm 2 and yes that includes the ac2 and ac5 that are so inefficient but at least there range makes them have more use then a small laser. Just so it's clear I rate the srm4 and 6 very highly it is just the awful srm2 I hate on. Both the shadowhawk and dervish would be super improved by removing them for other things usaly med lasers especially on the shadowhawk where the 12 heat sinks and wierd jump of 3 works out perfectly with 3 med lasers. That change alone would make the shadow hawk competive against the other 55 toners accept the wvr-6m and even there the better heat effencincy makes it closer then you would expect
The hunchback is a suicide mech. It'll survive long enough to punch a couple holes before being obliterated
Let's be real, HBK-4G is not a death sentence because it is constructed to be one, but because it's a Heavy Mech wearing a costume of a Medium. It's a priority target on the field that wants to get close to the OpFor and inevitably draws a LOT of hurt flying it's way.
If you have a Wolverine and Hunchback bearing down on you and you have equal to hit mods for both, it's likely you're going to focus fire 4G. Because it's scary and has a scary gun. Does it mean that Wolverine is a worse mech? No, not really. 4G should have had "Distracting" quirk :D Not because of the lore reasons, but because of the effect it has on players in TT
Sometimes it feels that way doesn't it? XD It does have heavy mech armor from the front though
@@nerdyOveranalyzed exactly. Charge straight ahead while absorbing damage and doing as much as possible
this is the perfect channel to discover as i'm getting into battletech, such good content! especially as i'm thinking about starting a solo mercenary campaign in 3015 to learn the game haha. now to figure out my first 12 mechs :3
Welcome aboard Commander! I got my start in 3015 too. The Marik Civil War is great!
What sorts of questions did you have?
@@nerdyOveranalyzed probably too many questions that i just don't know yet aha. i think the main thing i'm stuck on is just how many of each type of mech would a beginner company have? i was thinking of doing a all light scout lance, an assault and light lance for face-breaking and backstabbing, and a mixed lance for versatility, but i'm not sure if that makes "sense" from the perspective of the succession wars screwing all of the things. i know, not the most hard hitting question ever, but logistics is hard enough when you've got a proper military supply, i can't imagine how bad mercs have it!
its kinda funny because i've already got who i want to fight sorted, but my own forces are stuck!
@@lesbianmorgoth652 Check out Chaos Campaign rules. They are free, easy to pick up and easy to use for solo play.
@@nemamiah7832i will, thank you! i've definitely got some ideas in mind regardless, but proper rules would be super useful lol
@@lesbianmorgoth652 Chaos Campaign rules are very abstract and are a very useful building block for whatever thing you are homebrewing. A variant of those rules was used for Battle of Tukayyid campaign book, focused on PvP. But you can easily adapt them to solo-play. With abstract or distinct OpFor. Pretty much whatever you want to do. Just pick what you like from them and go from there.
I, personally, use them for solo campaigns in MegaMek to simplify the accounting, because I can't be bothered with keeping the spreadsheet for all of the parts. Pay points - fix mech.
I honestly like the Centurion; it's a good, solid mech and you can customize it quite a bit. I like dropping the LRMs for an SRM6, more armor and a closer range brawl.
It's a solid mech if you customize it! The concept is really good, but the original design just needs some tweaks.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Oh, no doubt! I'd call it my favorite Medium, overall.
A great balance between speed, armor distribution, weapon allocation and cost!
Excellent, excellent video. I learned a lot, and while I've never been able to be a tabletop man, I found it fascinating how mechs that seemed cursed in Mechwarrior 5 or the Battletech PC game... were cursed in tabletop too! Educational and that speaking slime animation is very distracting, not in a bad way.
One thing I like doing for bodyguards when operating on the Davion-Liao border and short on Vindies is to salvage Liao Blackjacks, cobble together a functional arm for one, and part-buy (or salvage) a Davion Blackjack arm for the one I didn't manage to build. Little bit of tinkering, some reinforcing of the AC arm, and a third-hand AC/5, and you can build something pretty decent, with an AC/5, Large Laser, and two Medium Lasers, as well as reinforcing the cooling loop a little. You can pull the Jump Jets for some more sinks, ammo, or armour, or leave them if you want, either works. But if you pull them, you can fit a second ton of ammo (I recommend flak - the 5 doesn't have the range of the 2, but the damage is far more respectable),and either another sink or thickening up the armour to nearly the max the chassis can carry. Of course, the Vindicator and Wyvern are superior if you're going the salvage route and the Centurion-AL and Discoback more than serviceable if you have the cash for newbuilds, but sometimes you don't have the cashflow for a shiny new (second-hand) mech and the opfor fails to provide what you really want, so it can be a decent way to make something functional out of a mech that's not a full-on LEMON, but certainly tends to have a lemon-scented air-freshener in the cockpit free of charge.
If you can get Centurion-ALs though, for the love of Blake pull that right-arm Small Laser and shave off some armour to replace it with the workhorse Medium Laser, as well as flip the rear ML to face forward, please. Similar for the Vindicator, though for that I just rip the Small and its housing out entirely to try to give the poor bastard piloting it a better chance of ejection, and use the freed-up tonnage for some extra armour.
The Shadow Hawk CAN be decent, but it basically requires welding half a -K2 to half a -2H or -2D. The Kuritans HORRIBLY oversinked that thing, and if you can pull some of the unneeded sinks in favour of the SRMs and MLs of its other variants it can surprise you, with a decent long-range punch with the PPC and *maybe* also still the LRM-5, and then a good short-range band of mixed MLs and SRMs. Just... try to fit the last two JJs. It's a disgrace that a supposed cav mech doesn't have a full JJ fit. YMMV on whether the manhours are worth it, but if you have a couple absolutely WRECKED SHawks of different variants and not many options...
BELATED EDIT: Also, I think there's something to be said for a Hunchie-4P refit that pulls the SL, three of the MLs, and six Sinks for a Blazer and a half-ton of extra armour. Sure, you have to bracket-fire, but you've got a medium-range headcapper and then still five MLs at short range to exploit all the lovely holes you blew in them while trying to hit the cockpit. Other option is to make it a refit of one of the variants like the -4J or -4N, with both a decently-heavy RT energy loadout and some RT missiles, and have only two MLs, a Blazer, and a six-pack of SRMs. Holepunching and critseeking either way, your choice whether you prefer the flexibility of SRMs or the brutal efficiency of MLs!
Huzzah for frankenmechs!
I have always been enraptured by the Hunchback mech. From the beloved 4G variant that turns it into a force to be reckoned with at close ranges, to the 4P variant that turns that right torso into laser-show-2023, I just can't help loving thay thing.
yep yep yep it's great!
Any real thoughts on the other varrients I have seen the one with the I think 2 lrm 10 see some good use and unsurprisingly the one with the ac5 and 2 lrm 5 has performed badly the few times I have seen it in action
@@xerty5502 you're picking the variants that tried to do everything. Hunchies work best when given a certain range/weapon to be good at, from a SINGLE ac20(who can knock out even HEAVY mechs) to a laser death show of medium lasers(to really make them focus fire on ya else be pelted with armour destroying lasers), Hunchback mechs WANT to be focused on, and not be in the back lines. Thus keeping attention off of the other mechs in it's lance.
@@macrux152__8 I acualy like the one with the 2 lrm 10 I think it is the second best hunchie in my opinion first being the ac20. The disco is better on paper but just never holds up on the field in my experince and does not have the intimidation value of the ac20
@@xerty5502 While I must agree that the ac20 is the OG of being focused fired upon, I must disagree on the disco-laser-hunchie, I have used it on my lances quite a lot, and it does it's job helping out whatever frontline mech I have(usually a Thunderbolt or a Banshee), it keeps the damage high in close quarters, and if need be, it'll be a good fallback point when the Brawler mech needs some rest. What the Hunchback 4P doesn't do however, is be the flanking mech(something most people expect from a mech with THAT many lasers on), it's a good support mech, you take out whatever it's supporting and you're tantamount to get the Hunchie to fail. Heck even that version with LRM's is a good one, since it does it's role well, it's a discount Trebuchet, but tougher, so punchbot it'll be when the lrm's lose ammo.
Just wanted to say, love your content. But....being a new mercenary command, couldn't we substitute some formations with ad hoc or mixed formations using vehicles instead? Plus, it's a bit more economical sound for a new mercenary command just starting out. Would like to see your analysis on combat vehicles if you could please.
I won't fight you on your rankings of the 40 ton Cicada and Assassin, but most people forget they were designed to scout and fight the most common scouts; Locusts, Stingers, and Wasps. I think they do a good job of this and they can outrun most of their other opposition.
I personally love the Cicada 3c. Having one running around in the rear, long range sniping at the backs of heavy mechs, while at full tilt, really disrupts most peoples plans. Even better if you can just strip off the bullet poppers and add more armor.
They can outrun things for sure! I'm not sure I would pay the cash for them but I'm sure you could make them work if you had a few pilots who came with them!
12:04 That was either a last minute "wait it might not be that bad" rating change or a "oh god please don't throw me out the airlock commander" rating change.
it was a "I know it would piss people off" but I couldn't stop from making the joke.
13:12 the Griffin's other weakness is both weapons on one side.
Except the 1S variant moves the LRM5 to the left torso.
@@imasspeons Everyone forgets that the ammo is still in its RT.
@@jasonmonsen7052 that's less of an issue until the armour gets breached, or you get golden BB'd by a lucky TAC. I usually dump the LRM ammunition long before that point.
@@imasspeons Sure, but you're still weaponless if you lose your right side. The 1S' LRM5 is on the left, the ammo is still in its right torso.
@@jasonmonsen7052 Hmm, this is also true. I misremembered the MLs being more spread out but I'm looking at the TRO now. Putting everything in one arm is such classic early BT design philosophy. Nothing a quick refit can't fix if you're playing a campaign.
I prefer the WVR anyways out of the OG 55s. The 6M is a great generalist machine.
I really like this, good job!
Do you factor in the heatsinking capability? Because some few mechs like the HBK 4P (already S) and the TBT 5S stand out here. The TBT doesn't have the armor to slug it out in the battle line, but it can consistently put out more damage than a lot of heavies because it has the heatsinks to fire all its weapons all the time. Very few introtech mechs can do that and most of those are wasting tonnage with an ac 5.
It's such a shame there's no advanced tech Discoback variant.
Yes they were factored into the Offense section of the analysis! You're quite right about the HBK and the TBT!
This is a very strange system of analysis. Take the CRB-20, for example, and place it next to BJ-1DB and LNC25-02, machines which have respectively been granted ranks of S, C+, and B+.
All are entirely energy based, possess no negative inherent engineering flaws, and make use of broadly similar weaponry and armor profiles.
The Crab retails at (approximately) 3,900,000 C-bills, the Blackjack at 3,100,000, and the Lancelot at 4,700,000. At cost, we would expect (approximately) 80% performance from the 1DB, and 120% from the Lancelot if they were to be estimated as equivalent. Given the ratings provided, we should instead expect at least a standard deviation of performance in favor of the Crab, if not 2 when compared to the Blackjack. Instead, what we find is something entirely different.
The CRB-20 carries a main armament of 2 large lasers, dealing a theoretical 1 ton of armor damage over a 10 second operational snapshot, running a minimal heat deficit when stationary.
The BJ-1DB carries a main armament of 2 large lasers, dealing the same 1 ton of armor damage in that time-frame. Yet, doing so while operating at combat speed and with net 0 heat.
The LNC25-02 carries a main armament of 2 large lasers and 1 particle projector cannon, dealing a theoretical 1.625 tons of damage, but generating 7 units of heat when doing so.
More realistically, the LNC25-02 may choose to fire only a single large laser, resulting in 1.125 tons of damage, but no excess heat while at cruise speed.
Offensively, this demonstrates, even bill-for-bill, a significant advantage for the Blackjack, where the less expensive machine also sports 2 medium lasers for additional close-range firepower, compared to the Crab's 1, and increased heat control and alpha-strike potential. Similarly, the Lancelot compares to the Crab when accounting for excess heat buildup, while offering an even more exceptionally powerful alpha-strike, compounded with an advantage in range and the ability to deliver larger damage groupings (notably allowing for disabling blows against mechs like the Locust, overcoming the half-ton of armor which typically defends them from large laser fire, as well as critical hits on the head of any mech), and while of difficult value to quantify all these capabilities are delivered on a platform capable of reliable antiaircraft fire.
The CRB-20 mounts 9 tons of armor, reasonably well distributed, but less than one half-ton on any rear location.
The BJ-1DB mounts 7.5 tons of armor, with a similar distribution and weakness.
The LNC25-02 mounts 9.5 tons of armor, is fully protected from heavy weapons fire everywhere excepting its head, but also boasts an extraordinarily ergonomic design which in active combat scenarios, when engaging foes at medium range or longer, results in upwards of 25% increased durability - and as much as 50% in a not insignificant number of scenarios.
Defensively, this places the Blackjack at just noticeably above-expected comparative levels of protection (83%), and the Lancelot at a significant quantitative advantage (132%), not to mention significantly improved defense against out-flanking.
Where the vehicles diverge most - and potentially where the CRB-20 might excel - is in maneuverability. However, even here we find a distinct lack of significant tactical advantage. Against lighter foes, the 250 rated Magna fusion engine provides little benefit, leaving the mech high and dry against mobile units like the Locust or Phoenix Hawk. Additionally, though its higher top speed allows for greater flexibility over flat ground than the units being compared here, it's comparative poor heat management prevents it from maintaining that advantage for more than 50% of it's operational window even when not making use of its secondary armament. Conversely, the 4 Whitworth Jetlift pattern jump jets mounted by the BJ-1DB allow for a great degree of tactical flexibility over rough terrain, while still keeping pace with most mainline battlemechs - all without having to worry about heat buildup when firing its primary weapons after a jump.
Overall, I believe it is reasonable from this data to conclude that if anything these ratings should be reversed. Not only is the BJ-1DB a more cost-efficient machine, its capabilities quite nearly match those of the CRB-20 even when not factoring in expense. Similarly, the LNC25-02 fairs better both offensively and defensively in a price analysis and massively outperforms on a mech-to-mech basis.
Lancelot is a 60 tonner, but was put in this list to compare it against the majority of bodyguard mechs, so I think that should give it a bit of negative for being overweight, or rather more costly than comparable mediums. It has "bad reputation," which lowers cost effectiveness but has Anti-Air Targeting and Narrow/Low Profile to make up for it. Blackjack just has "bad reputation." Both have lower resale value from a campaign perspective, so it might be worth considering for some. Both mechs have low leg armour; if used without cover they'll get legged fairly often. Plus, since neither have actuators or hands in their arms if/when they do get knocked down they'll have a hard time getting back up. Both are also a bit slower than the Crab, even though the BJ has jumpjets. Those JJs work but are hot, and not something the BJ can use while firing both main guns. It adds flexibility but the BJ does need to worry about heat a bit more.
From a TMM perspective, the BJ/LNC can reach TMM +2 at times while running or the BJ reliably while jumping, the Crab can reach +2 reliably while running (including turns/terrain) or +3 if going straight. For the BJ to reliably reach +2 TMM, it has to add +1 onto its own to-hit rolls and take on extra heat which decreases its damage output at longer ranges. If walking, the BJ/LNC caps at a +1 TMM while the Crab can hit +2. The numbers seem small, but since we're rolling 2D6 even a single point difference can help lower to-hit odds by quite a bit, especially once you get to 7+ To-Hit.
The Crab's easy to maintain helps a lot in campaigns, and its claws/hands provide some extra utility during raids. The Crab is a good pick since it can fit into most roles pretty well (outside scout), and is a good all-rounder. Both the BJ and LNC are slow for a medium, making them decent front-liners but not good cav. The extra leg armour may seem a bit much, but with nothing to explode in it a Crab has a good chance of running away even after both side torsos have been destroyed. Even half-dead it is still a 1ML/1SL zombie, whereas all BJ-1DB weapons are arm mounted. A few lucky shots can disarm or disleg a BJ in comparison. The LNC is better, having both a PPC and ML outside the arms, and slightly more armour in general. The Crab has more critpadding in the CT than the BJ (LNC has more than both), as well as in the head. This is getting a bit nitpicky, but there you go.
I like all 3 mechs, but I see enough reasoning to give the rankings made in the video here.
@@jasonmonsen7052 well weight doesn't really matter, and actually serves strictly as an advantage, allowing the Lancelot to deliver more powerful kicks, which should be considered a net positive for the machine. As for price, it is in-line with most heavier medium mechs, and actually costs less than models like the Wolverine, Dervish, and Gladiator. Realistically, its bad reputation is not a significant detractor, and the only situation it might arise in is one where the mech has been severely damaged, and even then the narrow profile it presents means it is much less likely to end up in that situation in the first place. It cannot be overemphasized how powerful that defensive quality is, particularly in an age that has forgotten the targeting computer and pulse laser. As for leg armor, the Lancelot more than makes up for it with increased torso armor and a non-insignificant amount of rear armor, something which the Crab serious lacks, and the Blackjack can be explained by costing significantly less than the Crab, while maintaining nearly identical armor everywhere except the legs. A lack of actuators comes with some drawbacks, yes, but they are equaled or excelled by the added ability to perform an arm flip, greatly enhancing the ability to threaten multiple angles and serve as a bodyguard and sniper. A Crab firing both Large Lasers and running generates 2 heat, a Blackjack firing both Large Lasers and jumping its full distance generates 3. The Crab begins to suffer penalties from heat at 5, the Blackjack at 8.
Even something as simple as crossing a single hex of depth 1 water will totally eliminate any movement advantage the Crab has. Over a flat, featureless plain, yes the Crab has an advantage in movement, but add just a few heavy woods, rivers, or hills, or god forbid an urban environment, and the speed it might theoretically achieve evaporates. While it is undeniably faster than the Lancelot, that is simply a role the heavier mech is not designed to fill. It is a fire support mech which excels in a brawling or sniping position, but can also hold its own against cavalry and protect other heavier support units from being outflanked. The Crab's reliance on still relatively slow ground based movement means it is also easy to block for your OpFor, and has trouble achieving a rear attack the way jumping mechs can.
The problem with the Crab is that it isn't really a jack of all trades. There exist many other, much more efficient mechs which fill the same roles, and a ground-slogger with low brawling capabilities and decent speed just doesn't make it stand out against the competition. Think of the aforementioned Wolverine or Gladiator; mechs which maintain the same speed, but sport 5 jump jets as well, and a much more robust close-range armament, on top of increased armor - not to mention mechs like the Ostroc, Cronos, or Merlin, which will easily outperform the Crab in every potential role.
The fact is that there are a long list of machines I would have to pass over before I selected a Crab, regardless of what sort of position within a lance or larger formation I was trying to fill, even as a switch-hitter. The same just isn't true for the Lancelot and Blackjack, they are very nearly best-in-class at what they do, with even very solid mechs which cost upwards of 1,000,000 c-bills more remaining not strictly upgrades, and while there might be places where they don't fit, those places are better filled by mechs which compliment their abilities and synergize together, rather than a master-of-none like the Crab.
I think you confused "Bodyguard" with "Trooper". Enforcer, Centurion, Vindicators are Troopers, while the Bunchback is a Bodyguard/Juggernaut.
I've always been confused by the term Trooper and never have really used it in my analysis. To me it's not very descriptive to a player as what that role fills.
What does the Trooper role mean to you? What job does it fill and how is it different than the bodyguard role?
Lol, I can just see the bewildering look of denial on Big Reds face at giving the Shadow Hawk a C.
Eject all the ammo and go full melee!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I know its past 4th of July here in the US, but who doesn't love fireworks anytime of year...I say leave the ammo in and go give the enemy hugs that go boom with bright colors 🤣
I was curious. I have an old Shadowhawk that belonged to my family that over the centuries was modded for use as a dragoon.
The SRM, AC-5, and Ammo bins were removed and in there place was armed with a large laser, an extra medium laser and 3 extra heat sinks giving the max damage output of 23.
I’ve often had it compared to the Steiners Griffin 1S but given the Shadowhawks superior hand actuators and better armored cockpit this build functions better for a Shadowhawk than it does for the griffin. As far as I know this was a one off my great grandfather had built for his time in the opening years of the third succession war and she’s served well in her role as a brawler and dragoon but I’m no engineer so I leave that to you to judge. Should I bring her out of the estates bay to use full time or should I just stick to the Griffin 1S I stol……….erm I mean purchased from a still very much alive and in no way shot and left moldering in an outhouse Steiner pilot, for use in my company?
Do you plan to make an Assault Mech Tier list?
Assault mech tier list coming soon?
What a happy surprise!
Huzzah!
So I am confused about a bunch of the context for things like when you say the AC/10 for the CN9-A is "One of the worst ever designed" like how is it different from any other AC on the market?
And availability for maintenance parts, I have played MechWarrior 5 so I do have a basic idea that you aren't just always gonna find a certain weapon or mech being sold, some are more common but I haven't experienced mechs being HARD to maintain, just expensive to do so.
For tabletop I have only played the "Game of armored combat" box and read some of the battlemech manual because the rules for all the things like planes and troops seem super complicated so are these just all advanced rules from the total warfare book or from the other advanced books above that?
Yeah the maintenance is from Campaign Operations I think? The availability is from Xotl Rats
@@nerdyOveranalyzed So when you make these videos, what conditions is the information provided usable in, I really do like your videos a lot because I can use the info to make good lances for one off mech vs mech only games I play but are these tier lists only really meant for campaign play?
@@Pubmaster32if you dont play campaigns these videos are still useful, just ignore it when the funny slime guy says "this mech uses non standard parts so its gonna be expensive to maintain for a campaign"
Would love to see how much damage a lance of high tier medium mechs could do to Wallstreet and New York city before they were defeated. Excellent video
So good to see my girl, the Lancelot, shown off as the great 'Mech that it is.
As frustrating as it is that it can't fire all of its main weapons at once, it still has better firepower at all ranges than the Crab, and with better armor. It's just slower.
@@gigastrike2 If custom designs are allowed, you can replace the PPC with a third large laser and add two heat sinks. Still not heat neutral, but can cycle fire like an Awesome does. Very fun.
Ayyy someone else likes the Lancelot! Nice
I love the Crab.
It is nearly perfect, as you say, however...
Aren't there only like... 100 left in existence by the third succession war?
Not sure about the exact number but yeah they're super rare!
Yes, there's about a hundred in the entirety of the IS by 3025. Good luck finding an arm or leg if you lose one.
Can't wait for your assault review
A simple but effective refit for the Dervish is to swap out one of the LRM-10s and a ton of ammo for an SRM-6 and use the extra 3-4 tons for armor and a heatsink or two. You can even shift the ammo around and have one of its SRM-2s carry inferno missiles if you're feeling cheeky.
The wolverine 7K is quickly becoming one of my favorite close in backstabbing mechs.
The VL-2T Vulcan is kind of a victim of gameplay vs fluff disparity IMO. That AC/2 should realistically be a terror against infantry rather than an ineffectual plinker, enabling it to just one-sidedly slaughter most infantry when meeting them in terrain open enough to give it a line of fire that makes use of that range. That'd make it a highly specialised design, but one that absolutely would perform well in the role it was built for. The realities of the Succession Wars still mean it's going to struggle a lot, but it wouldn't be a complete flop.
As for the Shadow Hawk... really all it needs is to do to become an outstanding cavalry mech is ditching that SRM-2 and its ammo for a pair of medium lasers.
Glad the Lancelot scored well. Never understood the criticisms of it. It's probably my favorite 60-tonner, along with the Merlin.
Thank you little tactical slime for this breakdown.
Yes, the Shadowhawk 2H is almost spectacularly unimpressive. It has issues very similar to the ones people have no trouble condemning the Assassin or Vulcan for. It's just bigger. It kicks and punches pretty well, but half its armament has minimum ranges.
yarp
The biggest problem with the Shadowhawk 2H is the same one that makes the Assassin so undergunned: the LRM-5 and SRM-2 are supremely tonnage-inefficient when you factor in ammunition. The two combined are three tons of weapon with two tons of ammo-- the equivalent of packing seven tons of ammo for a single LRM-20. If the mech had picked either LRMs or SRMs, it could have had two LRM-5s or two SRM-4s; either would be a firepower upgrade and give the mech a defined role. Instead, it tries to do everything, and consequently fails at everything.
I feel like CDA-3F is a bit unfavorably rated. I understand that you're focusing on larger conflicts - but in small scale, lance vs lance battles, where getting destroyed in one volley is not a concern for something as dodgy as the Cicada (due to a smaller volume of fire), it performs really well as a flanker. A lot of mechs just can't take a PPC/MG salvo to their back and live to tell the tale, and the mech would be moving too fast to be hit with any sort of consistency.
Maybe! The low leg armor means I can potentially lose the mech in a single shot of the large laser though D:. It's too big a risk for me!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed It's a fast mech with a long ranged main weapon. You generally can afford to hide its weakpoint with terrain if you want. :p
@@nerdyOveranalyzed One thing i've completely forgot to mention: 3F has a lot more armor than default CDA, 15 all around, without compromising speed *or* firepower.
Just curious where does 5.6M price tag for HCT-3F comes from. It should be about 3.1M or something. Sarna and MUL seem to be in conflict here.
MegaMek and Sarna
@@nerdyOveranalyzed it's 3.1M on Sarna.
Should probably check MegaMek code...
I know this comment is over a year old, but I wanted to mention that I looked at the cost break down on Megamek and compared to prices in the Tech Manual and Tactical Operations books. Megamek is the correct price. Likely Sarna isn't accounting for the price of the Full Head Ejection System (1.7M C-bills before weight or other multipliers).
It might be a heavy mech and way, way uglier, but for 10 more tons the Ostol is a crab that isn't extinct outside of REDACTED.
12:00 I created my own version of the Sahdow Hawk called the Sniper Hawk. CCP with 2x LRM10 & 1x LRM5. With the jump packs removed, the fights from a distance, pounding the enemy & allowing faster mechs like the Puma or Firestarter to flank. I all so have a Centurion with a similar loadout.
I can confirm that crabs are freaking awesome
🦀 🦀 🦀
I can watch this adorable dollop talk about mechs all day
:D Thank you! Glad you're enjoying!
Definitely agree that the CN9-AL is better off than the CN9-A. Depending on the extent of refitting allowed (table variance and all that), I feel like all the Centurion variants should move the LRM10 and its ammo to the right torso. That and drop a ton of LRM ammo for more armor.
Yep! I do think more armor would be good for the Centurion!
I have to disagree with your DV-6M Dervish assessment. Not by much, but its better than rated.
My crab lance has become a local horror to my friendly mercenaries
Crabs are real solid. Probably my favorite mediums.
If you can kit one out with endosteel structure, you free up some weight to address the armor issue in MW5. There are so many variants of them that you could have a whole lance of Crabs and each one is different.
An excellent tier list. But you are wrong about the Shadow Hawk. It is perfect in all things... at least with the right customization. Drop the AC, pick up a large laser in it's place. Upgrade the SRM to a 4 pack which still fits in the head, add the missing jump jets, and increase the armor. It's better at splitting the difference between the Griffin and the Wolverine. It can still hit all the range brackets to help in any fight, it has maxed out armor for durability, and each side torso has only a 20% chance of the boom. It doesn't have quite enough heat sinks, but enough to give it some sustain. It's the design the Shadow Hawk should have had. We'll dub it the Shadow Hawk Slime-X1
I do like the Large Laser upgrade, my Shadow Hawk video suggests a refit that's somewhat similar to the one you suggested!
Unfortunately for this video I decided to do an analysis just on the original varients.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I've gotten way more use out of Shadow Hawks then Griffins in my Medium to Medium/Light lances. Unless I have a Star League era Griffin, all other variants get immediately sold/scraped. This is coming from BTA 3062 gameplay, and I have never had satisfactory results from Griffins.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I have had great results by removing the extra heat sinks, bringing the jump jets to five, installing a second medium laser on the left arm and replacing the SRM-2 with another LRM 5. Heat management becomes something you finally have to think about but you have a very versatile mech for 3025. At long ranges you have 10 LRM shots and an AC5. For in close you have two medium lasers backing up the AC5. It really benefits from having another non ammunition dependent weapon. Pair it with a Griffin for extra fun.
The Clint really needs a bit more love, especially since it's better as a light skirmisher or anti-scout than as a pure scout itself. paired with a Hermes II and you have a fairly effective bully pair for dealing with lights or whittling down larger mechs
Great tier list!
Thank you! Glad you think so!
I usually pair a hunchback with heavy mechs, either as a guard dog mech for LRM fire support lance, or a line breaker grouped with the likes of a Warhammer and Marauder.
I've had nothing but regrets running the Cicada, Clint, and Assassin. I remember doing a joint op and the other commander had their Assassin lose a flank to a Panther. That whole fight was a wash. That's not even getting into the Cicada's horrible habit of getting legchopped.
N.O.: Shadow Hawk is an F
Me: Hope you're ready to bid enough forces to back that up.
N.O.: I mean C
Me: I can live with that.
The hunchback 4G and 4P make excellant partner mechs. One problem with the 4G is that it scares opponents and if not accounted for can lead the mech to being usless by being focused down or ran from. If accounted for allows for some control over opponent's movment.
The hardest quality to quantify is the physiological affect some units have, be it ignored or feared. For example, Charger 1a1 is largly ignore untill it charges a mech and punts it off the map, off a high elevation, or into water. Berserker is on thr other end of the scale it is feared. Due to the 20 to 40 point axe it is target down and ran from.
The whitworth 1s is a good varient. Little low on armor for a close range mech, but jump jets help a lot. The problem is that it is rare. Would be easer to retrofit a WTH-1 to 1S loadout then to find a stock 1S.
Yep, the terror of going up against an AC/20 mech is pretty strong lol.
Very valuable lessons.
So I am strongly going to disagree with you about the Hunchback 4p. Your math is correct on paper, but the usage of the weapons while trying to maintain heat with such limited heat sink means that it rarely if ever is able to use its primary armament for very long. The 4g is a much better design as its sustained damage is far more crippling given the crush-through effect the AC20 has. Being able to remove limbs with one shot, able to stay cooler while using its full primary armament, and having a greater amount of that damage focused on one spot makes it a much greater threat for much cheaper in both c-bills, and BV.
Feel free to disagree Commander!
I would suggest when walking or running firing 7 medium lasers. This will net a total of 0 or -1 heat.
When you stand still in cover fire 8 medium lasers. This will net a total of 1 heat.
If your heat gets too high just turn off a few medium lasers for a turn.
Hope that helps!
There's also the Saint Ives vindicator which has the long range weapons of a Wyvern but no SRM6 so it's a bit overcooled and undergunned.
HBK-4SP is a 3025 design as well. Doesnt have the raw pancake power of the 4G, but has slightly higher (45 vs 43) damage potential than the disco-bot.
Centurion is a classic, and I want to love it, but beyond the shield arm, I find it hard to use without some extensive modifications - basically going full on Yen Lo Wang.
Blackjack, I like - it is an easy mech to overlook, I think, and it benefits from being deployed in numbers.
AC-2 is horrible against anything but the lightest mechs and armour, but the mech itself is mobile, has jump capability and 4 MLs are nothing to laugh at.
I do enjoy the Vindicator, due to it being a decent sniper, but I find its incredibly unfocused weapon loadout weird. If not for decent protection and a PPC, it would be basically a Shadowhawk clone. Still, probably the most versatile design if you also want jump jets along.
Speaking of Shadowhawk - a weird soldier mech design. It can't really deal much damage on its own. It is a classic, but it has some of the smallest weapons of each category - it can do it all... but nothing well. But at least it will last, which is an admirable quality for a medium mech. And it does not sacrifice mobility. A bit like a Blackjack, it is best used in numbers.
Griffin - I find it overly specialised for what it does.
Now two mechs that I can always recommend - Hunchback and Crab.
Hunchback is a beast that, depending on variant can do just about anything... AND DO IT WELL enough. AC20 variant is a thing that can't really be ignored no matter what weight bracket we are talking about. The laser vomit Hunchie is a horrible abomination that shreds anything lighter than itself, and opens other targets for damage. There are also lurm variants, if memory serves me right. You can have a hunchback for pretty much every possible role, maybe except scouting and jumping around.
And Crab - fast, agile, easy to maintain, if I remember - a good merc company pick. A fast, not terribly protected, and with a very good punch. we are talking about dual large lasers and basically no heat issues. These things are hilarious - sniping and running around both - very good skirmisher mechs that can somewhat work on the frontline when necessary.
17:29 all hail the king of Disco, mech fu never dies, lol
IT’S HERE
Huzzah!
I like how you call us Commanders :D
o7