Thanks for the great response, I still see a bit of confusion on what exact settings to make on your project for a fool-proof export. I might make a full video on how I address apple colorsync in my workflow. (it's gonna be a long one...) Drop a like if you're interested in this topic!
9:10 about setting the timeline color space even if you are not using project color management. in unmanaged YRGB color science this field is just a tag. That's why it doesn't change anything by default. However there are certain tools that rely on this tag like the HDR palette, the chromatic adaptaion OFX, the halation OFX and lots more (with the HDR palette you could override this tag manually inside the tool btw). Because they are referencing this tag, it is actually still important to set it correctly if you consider using those tools. Luckily since Resolve 17 we can tag the output color space separatelly from the timeline, because this tag always also affected our scopes as well as the gamma tags in the deliver page. I'm going to make a full video about that in a bit.
A side note on the size of gamuts inside of DaVinci Resolve. In theory it doesn't actually matter how big or small a color space is, since all the data is preserved in 32bit float. Assuming we don't use destructive tools in our grading like softclip, LUTs or hard clamping. What the different gamuts actually change is the way our standard grading tools like LGG etc. operate, because of the scale we are working in. As a brief example take a saturation ramp in a small color space like Rec.709 compared to a huge color space like RedWideGamut. In Rec709, because it's small, the colors from no saturation to a lot of saturation spread across the whole gamut. So this is our scale for now. Let's convert this to RedWideGamut - our saturation only goes from 0 to maybe 15%. So we have 85% of headroom. Operations like Gain or Contrast now work completely different. In both cases all the data is still there, even if we exceed the 0-1 range (because it's 32bit float) - but the tools are way more sensitive in the big color space. Also the different gamuts change the relationship between red, green and blue, because of their orientation in the CIE diagram (in simplified terms). Boosting for example the green channel in AWG4 creates a different shade of green than boosting the green channel in DWG. You are completely right at 4:00 - the reason for DWG is to standardize. You could also work in AWG3 or AP1 or any other space. So which one is better, you may ask. After all, all of that then comes down to personal preference. One thing to say tho is, that you have to remember DWG is only available in Resolve. If you are working with other people, other software, other color pipelines, the best idea usually is to work in an industry standard like ACES.
Danny, I accidently put a CST with input SLOG3, S-Gamut3.Cine to DWG. My timeline colorspace is DWG in project settings. I liked the result. Does this workflow make much sense? Will I run into problems down the pipeline?
"If it works, it works" As I mentioned in the video, DWG in the project settings doesn't make a difference if you're not using DaVinci YRGB Color Managed
FOR_EXAPMPLE MY COLOR SCINCE IS DAVINCI YRGB COLOR MANAGENENT AND AND COLOR PROCICING MODE IS HDR DAVINCI WIDE GAMUT INTERMEDIATE .OUT PUT COLOR SPACE REC 709A IN THIS ITS WIL BE WORK?
I have a question why does it look like your still constrained to 709 color gamut in the CIE graph even tho your working in DaVinci resolve color gamut shouldn’t the color expand in the CIE graph since your in the larger daVinci color gamut
So it seems like the CIE Chromaticity scope shows your Output color space, not the Timeline color space. I have my Output color space set to Rec.709-A, hence the rec.709 scope.
@@JonPais wait so I’m confused if we’re sandwiched between the IDT and the OTD aren’t we suppose to be taking advantage of the wide color space for example (da Vinci wide gamut)what’s the sense in doing that if we’re still constraint to 709 I thought the reason we work in between the IDT and ODT is for color space advantage example more dynamic range, and being able to color grade in a bigger gamut than 709
@@DannyGan so I’m still confused because I thought all this time we work in between the IDT and ODT for the bigger color gamut example da Vinci wide gamut if that’s case why isn’t the CIE graph representing that why is it still representing 709
@@CineAmaniacs What selecting DaVinci Wide Gamut Intermediate as the working color space is not going to do is magically improve image quality, increase dynamic range, reveal colors that weren’t already captured at the outset, or make the picture any more cinematic looking. If you’re a professional colorist handling footage from a number of different cameras on the same timeline with deliverables targeting everything from social media and streaming networks to broadcast and theatrical release, mapping everything into a unified color space makes perfect sense. It elegantly solves the problem of mismatched color spaces, simplifies VFX round-tripping, enables using the same LUTs across all shots and ensures that NLE controls behave consistently across all of the clips on the timeline.
This comparison workflow is wrong - you can't expect the same adjustments that work for you in one color space to translate identically into a different color space. And yes, when working with multiple cameras, its best practice to convert everything to one working color space, but that doesn't mean all those cameras will automatically match - it just means that when you make your adjustments, those adjustments will react similarly across all the clips but you still need to make your base adjustments to get all those clips levels to be sitting where they need to be.
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, how can you be a colorist and not realize that Log to Rec709 looks better in EVERY example? This proves my point, you simply want to use Wide Gamut because you heard about it and think it's the answer... LOOK at those comparisons! The DWG looks worse every time. Here's a pro tip, I've been in the industry 20 years... anything done by DaVinci is mostly likely NOT the way ... JUST like here, JUST like the way the CST can't convert footage from a Blackmagic camera correctly and there are LUTs that do it better, JUST like the million bugs in Resolve, anything pioneered by Davinci should be avoided like the plague
Dude…just don’t use DaVinci then if that’s your opinion. What a troll Test it yourself, using DWG properly doesn’t negatively affect colour space or gamma.
I swear, literally NO ONE understands this including this guy... WHY would you use Davinchi Wide Gamut to only put out to REC 709? People are just doing these things to feel important, just like people using ACES because they found out it was a thing, they work in ACES to put out to REC709. Does it not occur to you that if you utilize the range of Wide Gamut but then finalize to REC709 you WILL have problems??????? This misunderstanding of grading is up there with people in a rush to get HDR monitors... at a time where the trend is to not go above 700 nits on a shot during noon day sun. Good job working in HDR with a $3,5000 monitor that does 4000 nits... all so you can keep your shots under 700 and rec709 to keep within the standard of the industry.
Looks like someone missed their morning coffee… The fact that you don’t understand what a working colour space is, I’m not gonna argue any further. By your logic, why even shoot log then? If we are outputting to rec709…think about that
Thanks for the great response, I still see a bit of confusion on what exact settings to make on your project for a fool-proof export. I might make a full video on how I address apple colorsync in my workflow. (it's gonna be a long one...) Drop a like if you're interested in this topic!
Thank you so much for making this video dude, it’s so helpful
Thanks David!
9:10 about setting the timeline color space even if you are not using project color management. in unmanaged YRGB color science this field is just a tag. That's why it doesn't change anything by default. However there are certain tools that rely on this tag like the HDR palette, the chromatic adaptaion OFX, the halation OFX and lots more (with the HDR palette you could override this tag manually inside the tool btw). Because they are referencing this tag, it is actually still important to set it correctly if you consider using those tools. Luckily since Resolve 17 we can tag the output color space separatelly from the timeline, because this tag always also affected our scopes as well as the gamma tags in the deliver page. I'm going to make a full video about that in a bit.
Thanks for your elaborate and informative comment! Looking forward to your take on the topic 🫡
A side note on the size of gamuts inside of DaVinci Resolve. In theory it doesn't actually matter how big or small a color space is, since all the data is preserved in 32bit float. Assuming we don't use destructive tools in our grading like softclip, LUTs or hard clamping.
What the different gamuts actually change is the way our standard grading tools like LGG etc. operate, because of the scale we are working in. As a brief example take a saturation ramp in a small color space like Rec.709 compared to a huge color space like RedWideGamut. In Rec709, because it's small, the colors from no saturation to a lot of saturation spread across the whole gamut. So this is our scale for now. Let's convert this to RedWideGamut - our saturation only goes from 0 to maybe 15%. So we have 85% of headroom. Operations like Gain or Contrast now work completely different. In both cases all the data is still there, even if we exceed the 0-1 range (because it's 32bit float) - but the tools are way more sensitive in the big color space.
Also the different gamuts change the relationship between red, green and blue, because of their orientation in the CIE diagram (in simplified terms). Boosting for example the green channel in AWG4 creates a different shade of green than boosting the green channel in DWG.
You are completely right at 4:00 - the reason for DWG is to standardize. You could also work in AWG3 or AP1 or any other space. So which one is better, you may ask. After all, all of that then comes down to personal preference. One thing to say tho is, that you have to remember DWG is only available in Resolve. If you are working with other people, other software, other color pipelines, the best idea usually is to work in an industry standard like ACES.
Thanks for demonstrating Davinci Wide Gamut in great detail, you ROCK!!
The timeline color space setting is mostly to tell Davinci what you’re working with when you want to switch a particular node to Linear for example 👍🏾
So if I switch a node to linear, it will be in DWG? Interesting...
Thanks for this! Love your channel
thanks for sharing!
thanks for your effort on this videos
What was the project color management settings for this?
DaVinci YRGB
Timeline: DaVinci Wide Gamut/Intermediate
Output: Rec.709-A
If I want to use two csts in node pipeline, what should I put in Project settings > color mgmt > color science ?
Just the default DaVinci YRGB
@@DannyGan Thanks for the reply. And timeline color space and output color space should be ?
Danny, I accidently put a CST with input SLOG3, S-Gamut3.Cine to DWG. My timeline colorspace is DWG in project settings. I liked the result. Does this workflow make much sense? Will I run into problems down the pipeline?
"If it works, it works"
As I mentioned in the video, DWG in the project settings doesn't make a difference if you're not using DaVinci YRGB Color Managed
FOR_EXAPMPLE MY COLOR SCINCE IS DAVINCI YRGB COLOR MANAGENENT AND AND COLOR PROCICING MODE IS HDR DAVINCI WIDE GAMUT INTERMEDIATE .OUT PUT COLOR SPACE REC 709A IN THIS ITS WIL BE WORK?
Not sure, I have little to no experience with HDR workflows
I have a question why does it look like your still constrained to 709 color gamut in the CIE graph even tho your working in DaVinci resolve color gamut shouldn’t the color expand in the CIE graph since your in the larger daVinci color gamut
Using DWG does not make colors more saturated than they already are. Since he’s mastering in Rec.709, colors will be constrained to Rec.709.
So it seems like the CIE Chromaticity scope shows your Output color space, not the Timeline color space.
I have my Output color space set to Rec.709-A, hence the rec.709 scope.
@@JonPais wait so I’m confused if we’re sandwiched between the IDT and the OTD aren’t we suppose to be taking advantage of the wide color space for example (da Vinci wide gamut)what’s the sense in doing that if we’re still constraint to 709 I thought the reason we work in between the IDT and ODT is for color space advantage example more dynamic range, and being able to color grade in a bigger gamut than 709
@@DannyGan so I’m still confused because I thought all this time we work in between the IDT and ODT for the bigger color gamut example da Vinci wide gamut if that’s case why isn’t the CIE graph representing that why is it still representing 709
@@CineAmaniacs What selecting DaVinci Wide Gamut Intermediate as the working color space is not going to do is magically improve image quality, increase dynamic range, reveal colors that weren’t already captured at the outset, or make the picture any more cinematic looking. If you’re a professional colorist handling footage from a number of different cameras on the same timeline with deliverables targeting everything from social media and streaming networks to broadcast and theatrical release, mapping everything into a unified color space makes perfect sense. It elegantly solves the problem of mismatched color spaces, simplifies VFX round-tripping, enables using the same LUTs across all shots and ensures that NLE controls behave consistently across all of the clips on the timeline.
This comparison workflow is wrong - you can't expect the same adjustments that work for you in one color space to translate identically into a different color space. And yes, when working with multiple cameras, its best practice to convert everything to one working color space, but that doesn't mean all those cameras will automatically match - it just means that when you make your adjustments, those adjustments will react similarly across all the clips but you still need to make your base adjustments to get all those clips levels to be sitting where they need to be.
I believe I mentioned “match closer”
You don’t need to do anything in the Tone Mapping or Gamut Mapping sections when going from a camera color space into a working color space.
Tone mapping is for converting HDR to SDR, You place it in the last CST node.
Nope I didn’t touch anything in the Tone Mapping
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, how can you be a colorist and not realize that Log to Rec709 looks better in EVERY example? This proves my point, you simply want to use Wide Gamut because you heard about it and think it's the answer... LOOK at those comparisons! The DWG looks worse every time. Here's a pro tip, I've been in the industry 20 years... anything done by DaVinci is mostly likely NOT the way ... JUST like here, JUST like the way the CST can't convert footage from a Blackmagic camera correctly and there are LUTs that do it better, JUST like the million bugs in Resolve, anything pioneered by Davinci should be avoided like the plague
Dude…just don’t use DaVinci then if that’s your opinion. What a troll
Test it yourself, using DWG properly doesn’t negatively affect colour space or gamma.
@@DannyGan Then why are all your clips you claim look better so crushed?
I swear, literally NO ONE understands this including this guy... WHY would you use Davinchi Wide Gamut to only put out to REC 709? People are just doing these things to feel important, just like people using ACES because they found out it was a thing, they work in ACES to put out to REC709. Does it not occur to you that if you utilize the range of Wide Gamut but then finalize to REC709 you WILL have problems??????? This misunderstanding of grading is up there with people in a rush to get HDR monitors... at a time where the trend is to not go above 700 nits on a shot during noon day sun. Good job working in HDR with a $3,5000 monitor that does 4000 nits... all so you can keep your shots under 700 and rec709 to keep within the standard of the industry.
Looks like someone missed their morning coffee…
The fact that you don’t understand what a working colour space is, I’m not gonna argue any further.
By your logic, why even shoot log then? If we are outputting to rec709…think about that