The environment outside of your shed might be working against you, cooler temps and moist air seeping in from the winter. In a perfect world you'd start the drying out phase in the spring and run it all the way through the late fall. Usually, a 'total boat' dry-out operation is required on a project this large because you can be certain moisture is hiding in so many places you haven't even looked yet. This would involve removing everything from the boat that isn't bolted down and could be a source of retained moisture (empty all tanks, clean bilge, remove all upholstery, every floor board, remove every door/hatch/cabinet, etc. - empty to the bones). I prefer de-humidifiers running inside the boat over heaters (they do create some heat, just run the discharge hoses outside the boat AND outside of the shed). Drying out a hull works better when the old bottom paint is stripped and even the gelcoat if needed (only if blisters are really bad and initial moisture readings are high, because you'll have to fix the bisters with glass anyway). This all sounds like a lot because it is, but anyone who uses half-measures to dry out a hull and repair blisters will suffer the fate of seeing the blisters return in just a year or two. On the left coast, we sail down to Mexico where there are affordable yards and go on the hard for the hottest, driest part of the year. It actually saves money in equipment and labor to let Mother Nature do most of the work.
I would start preparing now for the Spring/Summer. Do all the prep work to be ready and get the required tools/equipment lined up (buy it used or rent it). Get the boat cleaned out completely and disassembled, meanwhile you might discover more issues hidden. When ambient temps outside the shed rise and humidity begins to drop, then start running your dehumidifiers and/or heaters & blowers inside the hull... run them for weeks or even months... take moisture readings twice a week. Also, plan on other tasks that you can do while waiting for the bulwarks and other parts of the boat to be fully dry.
I don't like the hair dryer heat source. One style of very safe space heater is an oil filled radiator type. The are safe enough to leave running unattended, as the fins don't get hot enough to ignite a piece of paper, if one were to fall against it, yet would increase the air temp. Perhaps you could stack three together like books on a shelf, standing on their feet vertically as designed, to increase the surface area you would draw the input air through with some kinda shroud... Could probably pick up used one's for next to nothing off Craig's list etc.
@@SteelDoesMyWill Thanks for the info. I think you are right that I am fighting mother nature here and agree with your points. I am planning to get the bottom stripped soon to let that dry too. I was very happy how dry the area at the patch was. Hopefully that is a good sign. Cheers!
I tell you guys this -- for every minute that we get to watch this video, Jon spends an hour of the entire process. We are very fortunate to have such high-value content at our fingertips.
Well thank you. I’m sure some here in the comments will disagree! 😂 Buying a 35 year old sailboat might eliminate someone from the “genius” category automatically… 🤔
WOW,!!! That thru hull elimination lamination looks perfectly located and sized to accept that bow thruster a modernized full Keeler should have😊. After a working lifetime dealing with vinyl ester polyester resins, was forced to learn about epoxies and 1708 reinforcements for major repairs to a skeg and fin keel to our blue water cruiser (44 yo). I , you learned a lot about the physical properties of these modern laminating materials. Thank you for your thorough investigation and analysis.
No matter if you had applied the largest layer first or the smallest layer first over your hull hole, 50% of your viewers would probably say you did it wrong. It's an un-winable argument. In the past, I have usually applied the smallest piece first. But, after listening to your reasons for applying the largest layer first, I think you have a stronger argument. Either way, I don't see that repair failing in the next 6,000 years.
I love the innovative approach of all your repairs and processes. The engineering considerations are fascinating and i assume will provide a sturdy construction. Thanks for the video
I used to work for United Technologies at their Hamilton Sundstrand repair facility in Long Beach, CA. I did fiberglass repair on propellor blades which are a foam and fiberglass composite on an aluminum spar. We used epoxy, S glass and vacuum bagging. The factory / FAA manuals are very specific that the largest patch goes on first then successively smaller and smaller patches for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Any good boat glass person will say the same. The loads on those are much larger than anything your bow will ever see unless you punch a reef. You did it correctly and that patch ain’t going anywhere.
Thanks! I’m always amazed to find out who’s out there watching these videos. I REALLY appreciate the experts chiming in and it sounds like you’ve “been there-done that”! Cheers!! 👍🙌🙏
Enjoying your channel, makes me wish I had a place to do a retrofit and the skill where I live hard enough to get DIY stuff for a small home project. I like your setup for drying the bull works, however it would have been nice to see the before and after moisture readings noted. Keep the interesting material coming! Lastly was curious are you still doing some engineering work on the side or this is your fulltime job now?
Thank you! I will put up some numbers about the before and after as things move along. There are before numbers noted in tape along the hull (previous 1 or two videos) I occasionally pickup some PT engineering work but am not full time with anyone.
So frist the glassfiber patch layup is totale right, just end the layup with a layer that covers it all at last, stress bending of the glasfiber they other way around will make it pop it off like a cork. But you have a lot of layers in a small area, chamfer 5cm / 1.9 inches per layer, and keep it square. It will make it easier to grind out the edges later. End the layup with CMS 300 for grinding, in that way you will not weaken the fiber in the patch. It did have a bit of spiderwebs in it so i think you did vacuum a bit to hard, (Resin in peel layer) but love seeing vacuum repareres good job
Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I will probably do as you say, grind back any high spots and then lay a final layer or two of CSM to cover everything. The CSM in America doesn’t play as well with epoxy though… powder binder CSM is a bit harder to find. I will probably back the vacuum off even more to 5-10”HG for these vacuum assisted wet layups in the future to keep more resin in the mix. Not building a race boat here… Thanks! 🙏 👍
I had a sailboat for years 35’ and was a mechanic on industry equipment for 50 years , you did a great job , BUT so overkilled by the time your done with the boat you will be to old a weak to sail anywhere !
Wait ..wouldn’t you put the smaller one on first and work your way to the widest laminate? It seems counter intuitive. I’m not an engineer, but I am curious about that. OOPS! I SHOULD HAVE WATCHED FURTHER 😂
Speaking of pipe insolation. What about heat tape wrapped around roll copper tubing or other small pipe and inserting it down I side the walls. It isn't hot enough to start a fire but way too hat to hold on to for very long.
What is the purpose of the foam pipe insulation being stuffed into the top of the bulwark when drying? If you are just trying to contain the airstream then shouldn’t the gaffers tape be enough? Or are you trying to hold in heat? Actually curious if the heat is even worth it. I would think a constant stream of regular (non-heated) air would be enough and would be cheaper (to run) as well. Heat would certainly make the dry time shorter but by how much and at what relative cost?
Hi. Good questions. The center section of the bulwark - the divider - is lower than the top of the bulwark so the rubber insulation is meant to force the air into the two channels. Otherwise it would mostly run over the top. I agree that the heat may not be “worth” it. I will run it for a week and see if there’s any movement. It’s probably going to be most effective to just run the air and use a dehumidifier, or let the naturally dryer summer air do the job… 👍
@ as long as your fan is pulling enough CFMs I wouldn’t think it is necessary to constrain it to the two channels. The airflow will simply fill the entire space. No clue though. It certainly doesn’t hurt anything and costs basically nothing to do (relatively speaking). Will be interesting to see how the drying progresses. Keep up the great work!
Turn the batten on its edge to see the shape. Laying it flat along the surface does nothing to see the shape versus the hull and the repair as it conforms to the shape with the thinness of the batten used.
It’s not really a proper batten. On its edge it will not conform at all. I get what you’re trying to say though and a better batten is in order but this still worked to gauge the general shape as it produces a fair curve 👍
Why not using a dehumidifier? I use a desiccant dehumidifier, they are more suitable for low-temperature environments and effective in reducing humidity to lower levels. Ptting my maching on "drying clothes" and the fan to max in a small area works wonders on drying stuff, perfect for drying clothes but also electronics and in your case boats...
@livingforsail in the Netherlands the Meaco dd8l junior is very popular amongst boat owners. One of the important features: the chosen program resumes after a power outage. The machine never failed me in 2 years of continual use in the winter. Good luck with your awesome project !
Question: The Meaco DD8L Desiccant Dehumidifier is a very well praised machine in Europe. Is it available in Canada? Are there other brands that are very good and available in Canada?
When you rub your hand over raw fibreglass little shards of glass stick into you, these same little shards are going to stick into the new patch. This is why we use chopped strand then a woven cloth in successive layers as the chopped strands will penetrate into the cloth. Therefore, the large patch first is the correct way to do a repair. Double sided repair would be better, I would have setup to do the inside and outside first layers together, wet on wet, mainly because this is an area where slamming will occur.
anyone who has read some books on wood epoxy boat building knows that the answer is big to small. anyone still insisting on the opposite, aint going to get my time or crayons to explain it. about your drying setup: why not get a small dehumidifier, loosely tent the area and let the machine do its thing for a couple of days? you will need a dehumidifier going forward with the project and might even be able to run it whilst living on the boat.
I think that sounds like a good plan. I’ll let this run for a week… pay the electric bill, and then probably change the plan to something along the lines of what you suggest. If I empty out the bulwark along the entire perimeter (about half way so far) I can probably setup a closed loop to circulate and dry with a dehumidifier 👍
Have been on the fence (Subscribing - Patreon) from the beginning , …and if this is supposed to be a DIY Channel ….its obvious that your Engineering background is taking over because as you mainly explain and further explain as you go along your reasons for this and for that! No doubt that you have a good approach but too much is too much.
I love the explanations. It works for me. I process structural repairs and connections in a nonverbal, intuitive way but when Jon explains them, I notice that I gain a deeper understanding for my skillsets AND it helps me explain my own methods and decisions to others. For instance, on the Big-to-Small patch decision, what I most agreed with was the way Jon described the eventual sanding-off process that will simply feather out the ends of the intermediate-to-small patches, all the while leaving the largest patch unmolested to carry on its main purpose of providing maximum bond strength. I feel really validated and included by Jon's approach to this project and other, than the haircut, I wouldn't change much--just kidding! I'm grateful that someone is doing the stuff that I hope to accomplish myself, someday soon. Everyone's a critic these days and it seems to be a sign of our time. When I need to regroup and reaffirm my goals and intentions, I sometimes reread Theodore Roosevelt's speech called The Man In The Arena -- I highly recommend it.
Thanks for the info. I figured we were still in an acceptable range. The boat was hand laid poly so I probably do t really need to be pushing down into the leaner ratios I imagine…
Any other "HOT" Tips out there for drying out an old rotten bulwark??!!
The environment outside of your shed might be working against you, cooler temps and moist air seeping in from the winter. In a perfect world you'd start the drying out phase in the spring and run it all the way through the late fall. Usually, a 'total boat' dry-out operation is required on a project this large because you can be certain moisture is hiding in so many places you haven't even looked yet. This would involve removing everything from the boat that isn't bolted down and could be a source of retained moisture (empty all tanks, clean bilge, remove all upholstery, every floor board, remove every door/hatch/cabinet, etc. - empty to the bones). I prefer de-humidifiers running inside the boat over heaters (they do create some heat, just run the discharge hoses outside the boat AND outside of the shed). Drying out a hull works better when the old bottom paint is stripped and even the gelcoat if needed (only if blisters are really bad and initial moisture readings are high, because you'll have to fix the bisters with glass anyway). This all sounds like a lot because it is, but anyone who uses half-measures to dry out a hull and repair blisters will suffer the fate of seeing the blisters return in just a year or two. On the left coast, we sail down to Mexico where there are affordable yards and go on the hard for the hottest, driest part of the year. It actually saves money in equipment and labor to let Mother Nature do most of the work.
I would start preparing now for the Spring/Summer. Do all the prep work to be ready and get the required tools/equipment lined up (buy it used or rent it). Get the boat cleaned out completely and disassembled, meanwhile you might discover more issues hidden. When ambient temps outside the shed rise and humidity begins to drop, then start running your dehumidifiers and/or heaters & blowers inside the hull... run them for weeks or even months... take moisture readings twice a week. Also, plan on other tasks that you can do while waiting for the bulwarks and other parts of the boat to be fully dry.
I don't like the hair dryer heat source. One style of very safe space heater is an oil filled radiator type. The are safe enough to leave running unattended, as the fins don't get hot enough to ignite a piece of paper, if one were to fall against it, yet would increase the air temp. Perhaps you could stack three together like books on a shelf, standing on their feet vertically as designed, to increase the surface area you would draw the input air through with some kinda shroud... Could probably pick up used one's for next to nothing off Craig's list etc.
vacuum
@@SteelDoesMyWill Thanks for the info. I think you are right that I am fighting mother nature here and agree with your points. I am planning to get the bottom stripped soon to let that dry too. I was very happy how dry the area at the patch was. Hopefully that is a good sign. Cheers!
I tell you guys this -- for every minute that we get to watch this video, Jon spends an hour of the entire process. We are very fortunate to have such high-value content at our fingertips.
I have fun making the videos. They do take a bit of time to make though! Haha. Thanks for the support!! You’re appreciated 🙏🙌
👏🏻👏🏻 you are a genius 🥂🥂
Well thank you. I’m sure some here in the comments will disagree! 😂
Buying a 35 year old sailboat might eliminate someone from the “genius” category automatically… 🤔
Fellow engineer and boat owner here, you nailed it!
Thank you. 🙏 much appreciated!
WOW,!!! That thru hull elimination lamination looks perfectly located and sized to accept that bow thruster a modernized full Keeler should have😊. After a working lifetime dealing with vinyl ester polyester resins, was forced to learn about epoxies and 1708 reinforcements for major repairs to a skeg and fin keel to our blue water cruiser (44 yo). I , you learned a lot about the physical properties of these modern laminating materials. Thank you for your thorough investigation and analysis.
Thanks! I think a new hole somewhere in that area might be in order! 🙌
Love the MacGyver solution for drying the bulwarks. HVAC vent, tape, hair dryer and pipe insulation. My kind of solution. Good work.
Haha. Like I say: “There has to be a harder way?!”
No matter if you had applied the largest layer first or the smallest layer first over your hull hole, 50% of your viewers would probably say you did it wrong. It's an un-winable argument. In the past, I have usually applied the smallest piece first. But, after listening to your reasons for applying the largest layer first, I think you have a stronger argument. Either way, I don't see that repair failing in the next 6,000 years.
I think you have summed it up perfectly. Haha. Thanks!!
Repair looks fantastic! I'm pretty sure that you do an amazing job no matter what anyone armchair consultants offer. Love your instincts!
Thanks a lot! 🙏 I appreciate that! 🙌👍
i don't know anything but that repair looks great. always enjoy your videos
Thank you! 🙏 I am happy to hear that 🙌
Totally agree with the patch rationale. Well done 👍
Cheers! 🙏👍🙌
I love the innovative approach of all your repairs and processes. The engineering considerations are fascinating and i assume will provide a sturdy construction. Thanks for the video
Thank you for the comment. Cheers!
Good explanation of the patch strategy. Still hope you add a few layers on the inside of the hull to back it.
I put a few in when I started. I don’t grind a big relief out on the inside but a few in there chemically bonded 👍
That SNL skit was so funny
One of the absolute bests! Haha 😂
Really dig your style brother.
I really appreciate that. Thank you! 🙏👍
I like your hull repair, I am not a pro but big down to small is the way I have always done it
Right on! Thank you for the point of view. 👍
I used to work for United Technologies at their Hamilton Sundstrand repair facility in Long Beach, CA. I did fiberglass repair on propellor blades which are a foam and fiberglass composite on an aluminum spar. We used epoxy, S glass and vacuum bagging. The factory / FAA manuals are very specific that the largest patch goes on first then successively smaller and smaller patches for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Any good boat glass person will say the same. The loads on those are much larger than anything your bow will ever see unless you punch a reef. You did it correctly and that patch ain’t going anywhere.
Thanks! I’m always amazed to find out who’s out there watching these videos. I REALLY appreciate the experts chiming in and it sounds like you’ve “been there-done that”!
Cheers!! 👍🙌🙏
True to type, I don't believe "overbuilt" is part of your lexicon.☘️😎
😂🙌
The recommendation from the Gougeon brothers is to patch the hole with large to small patches as you did.
Yeah, that was the guide that I used for the repair procedure 🙌
I like that you don't seem to be under pressure to do all the work, which makes for a much better fix,imho.
Happy New Year 🎉
I’m enjoying the process 👍 happy new year to you also!
Enjoying your channel, makes me wish I had a place to do a retrofit and the skill where I live hard enough to get DIY stuff for a small home project. I like your setup for drying the bull works, however it would have been nice to see the before and after moisture readings noted. Keep the interesting material coming! Lastly was curious are you still doing some engineering work on the side or this is your fulltime job now?
Thank you! I will put up some numbers about the before and after as things move along. There are before numbers noted in tape along the hull (previous 1 or two videos)
I occasionally pickup some PT engineering work but am not full time with anyone.
Check the specs on the data sheet and it should tell you the tensile or bond strength. It’s impressive.
Yeah, maybe I’ll pop up some of the figures in a future video 👍
So frist the glassfiber patch layup is totale right, just end the layup with a layer that covers it all at last, stress bending of the glasfiber they other way around will make it pop it off like a cork. But you have a lot of layers in a small area, chamfer 5cm / 1.9 inches per layer, and keep it square. It will make it easier to grind out the edges later.
End the layup with CMS 300 for grinding, in that way you will not weaken the fiber in the patch.
It did have a bit of spiderwebs in it so i think you did vacuum a bit to hard, (Resin in peel layer) but love seeing vacuum repareres good job
Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I will probably do as you say, grind back any high spots and then lay a final layer or two of CSM to cover everything.
The CSM in America doesn’t play as well with epoxy though… powder binder CSM is a bit harder to find.
I will probably back the vacuum off even more to 5-10”HG for these vacuum assisted wet layups in the future to keep more resin in the mix. Not building a race boat here…
Thanks! 🙏 👍
I had a sailboat for years 35’ and was a mechanic on industry equipment for 50 years , you did a great job , BUT so overkilled by the time your done with the boat you will be to old a weak to sail anywhere !
Good thing I’m tanking my vitamins!
Hmmmmm Would some old electric blankets help with the temp for the fiberglass ?????
Interesting idea. I remember mads did something like that with vacuum to dry out Athena’s hull… 🤔
Commenting for the algorithm.
I thank you for your algorithm enticing comment! 🙌
Wait ..wouldn’t you put the smaller one on first and work your way to the widest laminate? It seems counter intuitive. I’m not an engineer, but I am curious about that. OOPS! I SHOULD HAVE WATCHED FURTHER 😂
Answered your own question there 👍. Haha. I agree it is counterintuitive but the reasoning makes perfect sense to me.
Speaking of pipe insolation. What about heat tape wrapped around roll copper tubing or other small pipe and inserting it down I side the walls. It isn't hot enough to start a fire but way too hat to hold on to for very long.
Interesting idea! 🤔 copper prices are pretty crazy but it’s a thought that I’ll consider for sure. Cheers!!🙌
Just use a disel heater , great heaters n safe
I’ll look into it. Thanks!
Glass layers are right but I don't think you are putting enough epoxy and you are getting air voids
What is the purpose of the foam pipe insulation being stuffed into the top of the bulwark when drying? If you are just trying to contain the airstream then shouldn’t the gaffers tape be enough? Or are you trying to hold in heat? Actually curious if the heat is even worth it. I would think a constant stream of regular (non-heated) air would be enough and would be cheaper (to run) as well. Heat would certainly make the dry time shorter but by how much and at what relative cost?
Hi. Good questions. The center section of the bulwark - the divider - is lower than the top of the bulwark so the rubber insulation is meant to force the air into the two channels. Otherwise it would mostly run over the top.
I agree that the heat may not be “worth” it. I will run it for a week and see if there’s any movement. It’s probably going to be most effective to just run the air and use a dehumidifier, or let the naturally dryer summer air do the job… 👍
@ as long as your fan is pulling enough CFMs I wouldn’t think it is necessary to constrain it to the two channels. The airflow will simply fill the entire space. No clue though. It certainly doesn’t hurt anything and costs basically nothing to do (relatively speaking). Will be interesting to see how the drying progresses. Keep up the great work!
@@caseyrockssocks8980 The Fan does pretty good overall and, as you mentioned, is really cheap to run... the heat source... not so much. haha.
Turn the batten on its edge to see the shape. Laying it flat along the surface does nothing to see the shape versus the hull and the repair as it conforms to the shape with the thinness of the batten used.
It’s not really a proper batten. On its edge it will not conform at all. I get what you’re trying to say though and a better batten is in order but this still worked to gauge the general shape as it produces a fair curve 👍
Why not using a dehumidifier? I use a desiccant dehumidifier, they are more suitable for low-temperature environments and effective in reducing humidity to lower levels. Ptting my maching on "drying clothes" and the fan to max in a small area works wonders on drying stuff, perfect for drying clothes but also electronics and in your case boats...
Good idea. I think I’ll give it a try. 👍
@livingforsail in the Netherlands the Meaco dd8l junior is very popular amongst boat owners.
One of the important features: the chosen program resumes after a power outage.
The machine never failed me in 2 years of continual use in the winter.
Good luck with your awesome project !
@@MarcoYolo420 I'm looking into it. Very interesting indeed. I wonder if I can get it in a "NA 120v" Electrical plug....
@@livingforsail I asked Grok. I'll post the answer below here. If it is deleted, just ask Grok yourself:
Question: The Meaco DD8L Desiccant Dehumidifier is a very well praised machine in Europe.
Is it available in Canada?
Are there other brands that are very good and available in Canada?
When you rub your hand over raw fibreglass little shards of glass stick into you, these same little shards are going to stick into the new patch. This is why we use chopped strand then a woven cloth in successive layers as the chopped strands will penetrate into the cloth. Therefore, the large patch first is the correct way to do a repair. Double sided repair would be better, I would have setup to do the inside and outside first layers together, wet on wet, mainly because this is an area where slamming will occur.
Thanks for the feedback. If I was starting again I would make a bigger effort to do some bevel/patching from the inside too. 👍
anyone who has read some books on wood epoxy boat building knows that the answer is big to small. anyone still insisting on the opposite, aint going to get my time or crayons to explain it.
about your drying setup: why not get a small dehumidifier, loosely tent the area and let the machine do its thing for a couple of days? you will need a dehumidifier going forward with the project and might even be able to run it whilst living on the boat.
I think that sounds like a good plan. I’ll let this run for a week… pay the electric bill, and then probably change the plan to something along the lines of what you suggest. If I empty out the bulwark along the entire perimeter (about half way so far) I can probably setup a closed loop to circulate and dry with a dehumidifier 👍
Have been on the fence (Subscribing - Patreon) from the beginning , …and if this is supposed to be a DIY Channel ….its obvious that your Engineering background is taking over because as you mainly explain and further explain as you go along your reasons for this and for that! No doubt that you have a good approach but too much is too much.
For sure!
Thanks for the feedback 👍
I love the explanations. It works for me. I process structural repairs and connections in a nonverbal, intuitive way but when Jon explains them, I notice that I gain a deeper understanding for my skillsets AND it helps me explain my own methods and decisions to others.
For instance, on the Big-to-Small patch decision, what I most agreed with was the way Jon described the eventual sanding-off process that will simply feather out the ends of the intermediate-to-small patches, all the while leaving the largest patch unmolested to carry on its main purpose of providing maximum bond strength.
I feel really validated and included by Jon's approach to this project and other, than the haircut, I wouldn't change much--just kidding! I'm grateful that someone is doing the stuff that I hope to accomplish myself, someday soon. Everyone's a critic these days and it seems to be a sign of our time. When I need to regroup and reaffirm my goals and intentions, I sometimes reread Theodore Roosevelt's speech called The Man In The Arena -- I highly recommend it.
@@scottcates Thanks Scott. I appreciate the feedback... haha. I'm going in for a haircut on Thursday!
65 35 is best for glass, 55 45 for kevlar. You shoot for 60-40 so the bleeder takes the 5%. You are resin heavy but better than resin dry.
Thanks for the info. I figured we were still in an acceptable range. The boat was hand laid poly so I probably do t really need to be pushing down into the leaner ratios I imagine…