The moral of the story is, the people who you work with and your boss aren't your friends. Tell them them nothing, trust no one and do just what you need to and go home.
I think you need to run your own business to understand how hard it is to be self employed and to pay salaries every year, and not pay yourself so you can keep your employees jobs. This country’s is making it harder for small businesses to have employees. Small family owned businesses struggle. We struggle to get money from our customers and get taxed extremely heavily then on top employees like yourself make us not want to put jobs out as it is a hassle to deal with people like you.
As an employer, I recently discovered a payroll error when an employee noticed a £200 decrease in their pay. After switching payroll providers, I learned that our previous company had been overpaying them due to an incorrect payment structure. I met with the employee, explained the situation, clarified the correct pay according to their contract, and reassured them that I wouldn’t recover the overpaid amount, as it was my mistake. I asked them to flag any future discrepancies, as I believe in taking full responsibility for my errors-morality over strict legality.
@Bornflyhuhu I mean it's literally the only possibility that should spring to mind. Why else would the colleague feel there was any issue with her pay amount of not that it seemed to high in relation to theirs.
Well yhey bought her time so caveat emptor ... if she bought an overpriced car she wouldnt get her money back for overpaying. If they paid her for hours she didnt work id ageee to work those hours in leiue of repaying or agree to pay back the exact amount per week they over paid and no more. The hell do they think they are asking for 22k off her? Craxy world. Craxy laws.
That's an interesting one. Shops are not obliged to To give change so, its a slightly different position. Then again, if they decide to give it and give too much or too little, does it become an issue of genuine mistake / dishonesty which CAN be rectified later? Would be interesting to know.
I would've been interested to know whether she could offset her reduced tax credits against the money she was being asked to pay back, given that the employers' error caused those credits to be lowered.
you would reduce it in your current tax year and use it as a deduction on income going forward while its being paid back. you could *in theory* ask for an adjustment to previous years, but its easier and HMRC would probably prefer you to use it as a deduction. You would also want to make sure this goes through PAYE so that you get the benefit against your tax paid if you are above the threshold.
@@tehs3raph1mTax credits are a name for a benefit in the UK, I assume this is what she meant. I think the employer would have to reduce the claim by what their error cost her, it seems fair
technically, they can only get the last 3 years she was overpaid. She notified them and they stopped overpaying her 3 years ago. There's a 6 year limit to claim the money, they've come to her long after the initial 3 years where she informed them.
She knew, as is commonly the case, when one is overpaid incorrectly they are less inclined to inform their employer over when one is underpaid. She clearly knew and decided not to tell them.
More than likely public sector. HR at a council put me on a higher wage than I should’ve been on, but it was all in the job offer and contract I’d signed so nothing they could do to reclaim it. It also meant that the other member of staff in the same role had to be on the same rate and received back pay.
Been there, similar situation, local authority, but not for nearly so long, nor for nearly so much. My boss said I could afford to pay what amounted to half my monthly wages back each month. That just demonstrates the difference between their pay and mine (their monthly salary is seven times as much as mine). I contacted payroll and negotiated with them, and completely by-passed the manager. Always argue your case until you are comfortable with the outcome, knowing that it still has to be paid.
The protection is shes clearly getting full time wages as a part timer and kept quiet . That's the protection, your not owed someone else's or business money because of a clerical mistake. This is the same as a bank accidentally depositing a million , it's not a finders keepers law .
If she asked them for a detailed plan of how much exactly she was overpaid month by month for the previous decade, something completely reasonable, they would immediately let it go. It would probably cost them over £20k to produce something like that and the legal department would shut it down immediately as the chance of making are mistake are too high.
Im going to keep this in my back pocket. If i get over paid, put extra money into a high interest savings account, when they come knocking, give them their money back, i keep the interest!!
She’s clearly unaware of any wrongdoing on her part. There is a legal doctrine called unjust enrichment which means that even if it’s not your fault, if you objectively got more money than you should have done, you are obliged to pay it back
The fact that the answers she is giving (vague and not addressing the actual questions) suggests she knows (or knew) she was getting too much, which is suspect. Also: is it wise to be airing this on radio?
Not to me. This is a stressful situation and she's on the radio, which is quite nerve-racking. My interpretation is that she's not actually quite sure of the details.. she said didn't get a breakdown of her new pay rate when her contract changed, and with local government it's probably fairly complex to start with. She is probably salaried and like a lot of salaried employees doesn't know her hourly rate. Also, I bet the employee she shared her payslip with didn't point it out there and then to her face, with a helpful and friendly straightforward explanation "Hey, let's go to HR together and sort this out". Just went behind her back to management afterwards. (Tbf I don't know, but I would put a large chunk of cash on that scenario) I bet the formal communication from HR is as clear and straightforward as mud too.
I work on a fractional contract and whilst I know the annual salary for a a full-time post at my pay grade, I don’t know how the monthly payment is calculated and certainly wouldn’t know what the hourly rate. So if I my contract changed I might expect the overall monthly pay to either go up a little or down a little but I wouldn’t know by how much and if there an error, I certainly wouldn’t know if that error is based on too many hours or a higher hourly rate And it’s not my job to know that. Payroll do the calculations and perhaps the person in payroll who made the mistake can be ordered to pay back £22k ?
Im going through something similar. Five years ago i left a public sector post and my line manager raised a request that id taken too much time off. Now in 2024 theyre pusuing me but even though theres no dates and they have no access to my leave. They have no proof and the manager that raised it dued two years ago
If the paperwork wasn’t clear how do we know what she should have been paid 12 years ago? If they never told her what her new salary was how would anyone be able to check? I think I’d go to court over this. Public sector HR are completely useless in my experience.
Sounds like she had a suspicion there was something wrong (I’m being diplomatic!) but didn’t bother questioning the amount she was getting paid. If she’d been underpaid I’m guessing she might have enquired as to why.
This falls under unsolicited or unconsenting credit. Notice how the term is actually credit in which case it implies unrightful ownership of the funds. If you're ever in this situation and they don't reply you should make a direct transfer back into their account and notify the bank. Notifying the bank can often assist in court if they attempt a frivolous law suit.
If anything, you should never do this. Payslips being a taboo topic to discuss is in the employers favour because they can get away with paying unequal wages with no one checking. Sure what happened to this woman is horrible, but it’s not a reason to never share you payslip.
@@karaloca Like I said, what happened to her was horrible, but it should never be an excuse to hide your salary. People fought for laws that protect your right to discuss you salary without the risk of firing or punishment. Hiding them away when you think you might be being cheated is the most reckless thing you could do. It’s very simple
far more people would benefit from the sharing of payslips than would suffer. This lady may never have had a problem if her payslips were shared much earlier as the issue would have been rectified immediately.
She won't have paid any tax, she's on tax credits. She was also willing to forgo tax credits because her overpayment was more than the credits . She knew what she was doing, and eventually got caught, pay up.
I've spotted payroll errors and in most cases it's HR communicating or not communicating this information to the Payroll team. This includes someone who wasn't paid for 2 months who didn't even notice and someone who wasn't getting a secondment allowance due to them and hadn't noticed..... If people don't notice when they're being underpaid I can believe people not spotting when they are overpaid. In both cases I notified the individuals and it was resolved.
What wasn't mentioned would have been the over payment of Income Tax, National Insurance and pension contributions, this would all need to be sorted out, and would i hope make an impact on the amount repayable by the lady in question
Moral of the story, actually have a clue about the situation and the reason you are ringing prior to calling a talk show. It’s amazing how many people are clueless about their own finances as this clearly demonstrates
Seriously, the law should be changed. If you overpay someone, then it’s tough, your mistake, your problem. Maybe they’ll put in more effort to stop overpaying people.
the Very Basic employment law as I understand it, are if your boss/senior manager say's something work related and you say yes, if nothing changes in 3mnths it can be deemed, as a agreed contract,
She seems to have changed her position by not claiming additional tax credits due to a long period of overpayment by the employer - are we sure that a full repayment will for that period id in fact due?
They can only reclaim 6 years like he said, and since the last 3 years were paid correctly, they can only claim 3 of the 9 years worth. Thats likley around £7k based on the numbers she gave. String it out as much as you can, and you might push that 3 years owed down to 2, which would bring it down to about £5k. Argue that the extra money paid would have been more heavily taxed (as it would have been above the tax free throeshold) and you might push that £5k down to about £3.5k Kick up a stink and agree to pay back 50% of it in a one off lump sum, and they may likely take you up on that to avoid balifs. That'll being it down to about £1.5k-£2k to pay back. If they're going to be awkward, you can be awkward right back.
It is usually written in your contract to report any errors in your wages to HR/payroll immediately I’ve had to pursue someone for a similar figure because they went down to part time and still received full time salary Had another employee get dismissed and still have to pay the funds back If she’s a homeowner they can even possibly put a charge against the house - they can definitely go ccj/bailiffs route
But if I accidentally stay at work late a few hours every month for years because it is busy I'm guessing I can't claim money from my employer because its my mistake and my responsibility to leave on time...
I don't know how you could possibly "accidentally" stay late at work for a period of hours but either way this isn't about the mistake but about what is in the contract. If your contract says you work 40hrs a week for £x then you work 40 hours and get £x. You can't unilaterally change the contract by staying late and forcing the employer to pay your for it, especially if you do it "by mistake" unless that overtime forms part of your contract.
@@boostar155 I think you can definitely stay late my 15 mins to 30 mins which will add up over the time you are there. The point is if I did make a mistake that resulted in me working longer hours over a period of years (Although I don't care, this was the case in my last job where as far as I was concerned I only had a 30 minute unpaid break but I did also have a 15 minute paid tea break which I knew nothing about for like the first year of my employment) I am not compensated for my mistake or I am not suddenly allowed to work slightly less to make back the time. But if an employer pays you too much which can also include accidentally paying someone too much in their contract employers have the right to seek repayments in some situations.
Doesn't apply to this case but there is an exception to having to repay over payments (I know because this happened to me): If you are overpaid, you tell your employer that they have overpaid you (in my case former employer by the time it happened, it was a bonus they paid long after I was layed off) but they insist in writing that you weren't overpaid, then on the basis of that you go and spend the money in good faith, and then they come back later and say they were wrong and that actually they did overpay you, they have no recourse to get it back. There is already legal precedent for this in British courts.
After tax and ni, she was probably getting £100 extra a month. Not really noticeable, especially considering yearly increases, National insurance changes ect ect
The law needs changing. This is ridiculous. Perhaps if a big mistake like extra zeros then allow to recover in 3mths. They shouldn't even be allowed to adjust her salary now. I know where i worked previously thst sort of thing happened all the time and it had to be left as is.. Time to look for a new job.
There’s no way on gods green earth that she didn’t know she was being over paid for 9yrs. Unless she’s claiming plain stupidity or ignorance. She no doubt tried to flex her wages to someone and it backfired. So for being disingenuous she’s now paying the consequences down the line and playing the victim 🤦 she reaped the benefits for 9ys being paid more than she was entitled too. 0 sympathy at all. More fool the employers for employing such people, and making the mistake but that doesn’t give her the right to ride off into the sunset scot-free after keeping over 20k of money that clearly wasn’t hers in the first place. Reverse the roles, the employer has been under paying for 9yrs, now tell me who’s in the wrong.
Geraldine apparently still doesn't know what she's meant to get paid, what she currently gets paid and how much she's been overpaid. I can see the staff member knowing this and managing to confirm it after years of suspect. Think how hard people work to have a pay rise, to fight for job benefits and Geraldine is pleasing ignorance for 12 years of "apparently" being overpaid. Claiming negligence and being none the wiser and blaming the employer (their responsibility almost wholly) doesn't absolve her of any responsibility either.
That's employers for you just expecting tax credits to pick up the slack. We should up the minimum wage to a decent level and completely get rid of all tax credits.
I know that this is bolting the stable door, but in that situation, knowing that I was being paid too much, I would have put the excess into a separate account or very conservative investment (to earn a bit of money) until it was sorted out. Of course, I wouldn't have revealed that bit to anyone because they might come after that interest as well. What about the income tax that was paid on the £22,000? It might have even put her into a higher tax bracket as well. It might have been better to put the excess into a private pension plan to accumulate a nice pension plot as well as paying less income tax as well. Again, that's no-one business but your own. Too late for this poor lady but I hope it's resolved soon because such things are very stressful for most normal people.
the higher tax bracket, the loss of WT credits, the smartest thing to do would have been to raise the issue with them straight away. putting the money aside in an investment scheme may have caused them to accumulate enough money to be ineligible for WT credits. Pension funds rarely pay out what you put in so a bit pointless doing that. She got caught, she was underpaid WT credits due to the surplus and she would be entitled to get retrospective incrwase in WT credits and owes a substantial amount of money.
I want to know how she is entitled to tax credits. When she's been overpaid, 2000 pounds a month. Where most people don't make 2000 pounds a month on a 9-5 working wage
Dumb comment. 22k over 10 years is 2.2k a year. 2.2k a year is £183 a month. Factor in tax and other reductions and its less in her pay pack. So, she adjusts her hours and doesnt notice a £100 difference in pay. What if she also does shift? has shift allowances, performance bonus... etc yada-yada-yada.... Basically my pay pack (as a public sector employee) fluctuates more than 200-300 a month. If you think im chasing down every penny month to month... well then you must be a poor person ;) joking. Thats a joke, dont get offended. Its totally possible she didn't notice the change, its totally possible that the difference was masked by many other factors. There are different amounts of days in a month, most paypacks DO fluctuate by that amount just from sheer numbers of days in each month. If you make min wage of £12/h then even having 1-2 days different in a month already is the equivilent of this. NOW. Lets do it in reverse. Given that its £183 a month, how much do you think her hours have changed? Because I KNOW your making some stupid assumption that shes gone from doing like 5 days a week to 4 days a week. NONONONONO. Simple maths shows that she reduced her hours by £183 a month, which at minimum wage is 15h PER MONTH. She basically works 2 less days a month than she did before. Given that months shift by 1-2 working days across many months.... And thats if shes MIN wage. If she earns more, then its even LESS hours. Its LAUGHABLE at how most people cant come to reasonable or common sense logic, when what they REALLY want to do; is blame someone and for someone to be a bad guy/person.
@@robertproudfoot7990its incumbent on you to know what you are due to be paid, how can people be so oblivious to their finances, you are a single person.
@ financial illiteracy isn’t an excuse, learn how much you are due and be better. By the sounds of you set up its you thats the bum. You keep ignoring your payslip that your boss gives you… poor cunt
This sounds like a gaggle of idiots. This lady has no idea how much she is supposed to be being paid - or where the error is. The person who grassed her into management - what is their problem. Bullied at school The manager who said they are going to instruct bailiffs - how is this person in a management position
I know very few people who can rigorously check their pay slips. I only know how to do it because I used to run my own small business in the 1980s and I worked out the payroll using books of tables provided by the UK Inland Revenue. But most employees simply don't know how their annual salary gets divvied up each month, nor how the deductions are done. Many don't understand the meaning of their tax codes, some don't even know their annual salary. Most of us simply rely on the computer to get it right (which it does 99.99% of the time) until something goes wrong.
I don't think the person who grassed her into management necessarily had it out for her, I imagine they were upset she was on fewer hours getting paid the same and they were angling for a pay rise and it backfired.
@@mandolinic She wouldn't need to check her payslip "rigorously" though. Clearly if she's doing fewer hours her pay should go down. Either spread out over the year or reduced on whichever months the kids are out of school. Nobody is expecting her to know to the penny what she should be being paid (although with various calculators freely available on line it should not be be a massive undertaking given her pay would presumably have been discussed when she went term-time) but to merely have a basic understanding that fewer hours = less pay. She seems to be switched on enough to have figured out that she could have claimed tax credits if she had been paid correctly, which would suggest that she knew a lot more than she is letting on.
So if the emp!yer, drags their feet longer, it is only when it they make a claim in the court that the 6 years starts? So if takes them another year to make a claim would the lady only have to payback 2 years of overpayment?
No. It is 6 years from the "cause of action" which would almost certainly be when the overpayment was made. Thus anything greater than 6 years ago would not be retrievable in court. There are some exceptions to this, fraud or deliberate concealment being one but I think they'd be hard pressed to prove that, especially if she went to her employer of her own volition 3 years ago.
She's entitled for legal help. By experience if you dig deep enough you would find out that any employer ripp you off on something. Mine did and they can bugger off
I’ve only listened to three of your show clips on RUclips, Daniel, but I’ve already formed the opinion that you seem to attract overpaid, underperforming public sector employees who want to take the taxpayer for everything they can get!
The public sector mentality is appalling. Their sense of entitlement and none accountability is shocking. This woman knew from day one that she was being over paid and took a chance that her employer would never realise. She gambled and only partially lost. She should shut up and pay back what she legally has to.
![Resign or be FIRED: an employer's ultimatum to a disabled worker [LBC Legal Hour]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hFr0Ia4Rr9I/mqdefault.jpg)
![Resign or be FIRED: an employer's ultimatum to a disabled worker [LBC Legal Hour]](/img/tr.png)
![My employer scuppered chance of job interview with a bad reference. What can I do? [LBC Legal Hour]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BSY1DLRcOOc/mqdefault.jpg)
![I've got cancer and now I'm being pushed out [LBC Legal Hour]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1FeOKb2lE6s/mqdefault.jpg)
![Ice On My Teeth - ATEEZ エイティーズ 에이티즈 [Music Bank] | KBS WORLD TV 241115](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c-n92OgbbwA/mqdefault.jpg)
The moral of the story is, the people who you work with and your boss aren't your friends. Tell them them nothing, trust no one and do just what you need to and go home.
No, the moral of the story is to understand that if you are overpaid, you are legally obliged to pay it back.
@@James-yq5yx That's A moral, but the real answer is the one above.
A bit harsh ...A bit too much 2020+ life values....A bit of honesty needed and errors happen but it is what it
I think you need to run your own business to understand how hard it is to be self employed and to pay salaries every year, and not pay yourself so you can keep your employees jobs. This country’s is making it harder for small businesses to have employees. Small family owned businesses struggle. We struggle to get money from our customers and get taxed extremely heavily then on top employees like yourself make us not want to put jobs out as it is a hassle to deal with people like you.
Simple . Agree to pay it back at the same rate over 10 years .
She never wondered why there was more hours on her payslip than she had worked... For ten years? She knew.
As an employer, I recently discovered a payroll error when an employee noticed a £200 decrease in their pay. After switching payroll providers, I learned that our previous company had been overpaying them due to an incorrect payment structure. I met with the employee, explained the situation, clarified the correct pay according to their contract, and reassured them that I wouldn’t recover the overpaid amount, as it was my mistake. I asked them to flag any future discrepancies, as I believe in taking full responsibility for my errors-morality over strict legality.
The fact that her colleague went out of their way to report this with no impact on them is insane
The colleague more than likely saw what was being paid for the same role and queried why they weren’t getting the same rate.
Bitterness
@@skippy14712 that's a fair point. I didn't think of that possibility.
@Bornflyhuhu I mean it's literally the only possibility that should spring to mind. Why else would the colleague feel there was any issue with her pay amount of not that it seemed to high in relation to theirs.
@@almoravidbeh6105 yeah true, I need to be less cynical I guess
Please be aware, change must be counted before you leave the shop.mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards...
Well yhey bought her time so caveat emptor ... if she bought an overpriced car she wouldnt get her money back for overpaying. If they paid her for hours she didnt work id ageee to work those hours in leiue of repaying or agree to pay back the exact amount per week they over paid and no more. The hell do they think they are asking for 22k off her? Craxy world. Craxy laws.
@petertaylor6384
Couldn't have Worded it better .👍👍
That's an interesting one. Shops are not obliged to
To give change so, its a slightly different position.
Then again, if they decide to give it and give too much or too little, does it become an issue of genuine mistake / dishonesty which CAN be rectified later? Would be interesting to know.
No legally true
Never show your rate to anyone.. snakes 🐍
When it comes to earnings never ever speak to anyone about it. !
What if you need change ur tax code you could be paying too much tax so how exactly can you avoid it.
@ speaking to your manager and or taxman
@@___123n and along comes ur earnings either way get caught out.
Your mistake, you pay, their mistake, you pay
truer words never spoken.
Not really. If you receive more than you're owed, you know. So highlight it, like an honest person, and sort it out
@@niklaswikstrom78 but she didn't know until a colleague told her. Her pay did change but apparently they hadn't changed it by enough.
@@niklaswikstrom78 Are you saying it's impossible for a person not to know what their current pay is?
@@nazirkazi2588 Basically, yes. You know if you’ve been loading anything other than what’s in your contract.
I would've been interested to know whether she could offset her reduced tax credits against the money she was being asked to pay back, given that the employers' error caused those credits to be lowered.
you would reduce it in your current tax year and use it as a deduction on income going forward while its being paid back. you could *in theory* ask for an adjustment to previous years, but its easier and HMRC would probably prefer you to use it as a deduction. You would also want to make sure this goes through PAYE so that you get the benefit against your tax paid if you are above the threshold.
@@tehs3raph1mTax credits are a name for a benefit in the UK, I assume this is what she meant. I think the employer would have to reduce the claim by what their error cost her, it seems fair
Keep delaying it and let those 6 years pass!
technically, they can only get the last 3 years she was overpaid. She notified them and they stopped overpaying her 3 years ago. There's a 6 year limit to claim the money, they've come to her long after the initial 3 years where she informed them.
I thought the 9 year timeframe included that 3 years?
How do you not know what you should be paid?
She knew, as is commonly the case, when one is overpaid incorrectly they are less inclined to inform their employer over when one is underpaid. She clearly knew and decided not to tell them.
More than likely public sector. HR at a council put me on a higher wage than I should’ve been on, but it was all in the job offer and contract I’d signed so nothing they could do to reclaim it. It also meant that the other member of staff in the same role had to be on the same rate and received back pay.
Been there, similar situation, local authority, but not for nearly so long, nor for nearly so much. My boss said I could afford to pay what amounted to half my monthly wages back each month. That just demonstrates the difference between their pay and mine (their monthly salary is seven times as much as mine). I contacted payroll and negotiated with them, and completely by-passed the manager. Always argue your case until you are comfortable with the outcome, knowing that it still has to be paid.
The hell? Thats ridiuclous. Id agree to pay back the exact amount a week they overpaid me and not a penny more.
@@PadraigpI'd tell them that I'll pay them half back of any raises they give me.
if their mistake caused her to also miss out on tax credits I think they should accept they don't get that portion of money back.
Or….. when you know you’ve been overpaid you let your employers know and avoid the situation in the first place
@@Asif24960 Would you care to list the assumptions you made there?
This happened to a friend of mine. they changed her job not her contract. And now say she was overpaid.
it's terrifying that a local government made this mistake but also not surprising. Wonderful use of our taxpayers cash.
Never tell anyome your salary, no good things can happen.
If this was me my agreement would be £1 per month paid back for how ever long.
1,667 years and counting then... 😀
This is absolutely insane, surely the law has to have some protections in place
The protection is shes clearly getting full time wages as a part timer and kept quiet . That's the protection, your not owed someone else's or business money because of a clerical mistake.
This is the same as a bank accidentally depositing a million , it's not a finders keepers law .
Dont show your colleague your payslip ever - problem solved!
That colleague should now be your sworn enemy. ❤😂
Not discussing pay only helps corporations.
@@matthoward6130 not in this case
And yet wage theft, in reverse, hardly ever gets resolved.
If she asked them for a detailed plan of how much exactly she was overpaid month by month for the previous decade, something completely reasonable, they would immediately let it go. It would probably cost them over £20k to produce something like that and the legal department would shut it down immediately as the chance of making are mistake are too high.
That's ridiculous. You can export payroll history in a couple of clicks.
That would be two hours work max. Lolz.
Im going to keep this in my back pocket. If i get over paid, put extra money into a high interest savings account, when they come knocking, give them their money back, i keep the interest!!
That's a great idea.. almost like what everyone else is doing.
I’d invest it on US equities max out the interest ha
Exactly this
You know it’s a mistake and likely to come to light one day so protect yourself
Simple
She’s clearly unaware of any wrongdoing on her part.
There is a legal doctrine called unjust enrichment which means that even if it’s not your fault, if you objectively got more money than you should have done, you are obliged to pay it back
I'd offer a tenner a week. Cost of living is too high these days.
Are you telling me its took 9 years for her to realise she's being overpaid what nonsence
Thats why you keep your business to yourself...your colleagues are not your friends
The fact that the answers she is giving (vague and not addressing the actual questions) suggests she knows (or knew) she was getting too much, which is suspect. Also: is it wise to be airing this on radio?
Not to me. This is a stressful situation and she's on the radio, which is quite nerve-racking. My interpretation is that she's not actually quite sure of the details.. she said didn't get a breakdown of her new pay rate when her contract changed, and with local government it's probably fairly complex to start with. She is probably salaried and like a lot of salaried employees doesn't know her hourly rate. Also, I bet the employee she shared her payslip with didn't point it out there and then to her face, with a helpful and friendly straightforward explanation "Hey, let's go to HR together and sort this out". Just went behind her back to management afterwards. (Tbf I don't know, but I would put a large chunk of cash on that scenario) I bet the formal communication from HR is as clear and straightforward as mud too.
I work on a fractional contract and whilst I know the annual salary for a a full-time post at my pay grade, I don’t know how the monthly payment is calculated and certainly wouldn’t know what the hourly rate. So if I my contract changed I might expect the overall monthly pay to either go up a little or down a little but I wouldn’t know by how much and if there an error, I certainly wouldn’t know if that error is based on too many hours or a higher hourly rate
And it’s not my job to know that. Payroll do the calculations and perhaps the person in payroll who made the mistake can be ordered to pay back £22k ?
She knew she was being overpaid .
I say this because it was more hours than she works ..
that’s simple to work out ..
@@moc7323 exactly.. and listen to her evasive answers..
Had it coming, amazed this carry on went unnoticed for several years.
Im going through something similar. Five years ago i left a public sector post and my line manager raised a request that id taken too much time off. Now in 2024 theyre pusuing me but even though theres no dates and they have no access to my leave. They have no proof and the manager that raised it dued two years ago
If the paperwork wasn’t clear how do we know what she should have been paid 12 years ago? If they never told her what her new salary was how would anyone be able to check? I think I’d go to court over this. Public sector HR are completely useless in my experience.
Sounds like she had a suspicion there was something wrong (I’m being diplomatic!) but didn’t bother questioning the amount she was getting paid. If she’d been underpaid I’m guessing she might have enquired as to why.
6 Yr limitation
I would quit and move to the opposite side of the world, without a word.
This falls under unsolicited or unconsenting credit. Notice how the term is actually credit in which case it implies unrightful ownership of the funds. If you're ever in this situation and they don't reply you should make a direct transfer back into their account and notify the bank. Notifying the bank can often assist in court if they attempt a frivolous law suit.
So when this ladies hours were reduced and she was still receiving the same wage, she must have known at the time, that it was wrong.
I'm surprised there's been no consideration of the possibly of an estoppel arising.
Keep your payslips to yourself.
If anything, you should never do this. Payslips being a taboo topic to discuss is in the employers favour because they can get away with paying unequal wages with no one checking. Sure what happened to this woman is horrible, but it’s not a reason to never share you payslip.
@@joem4939 well it certainly worked out well for her didn’t it.
@@karaloca Like I said, what happened to her was horrible, but it should never be an excuse to hide your salary. People fought for laws that protect your right to discuss you salary without the risk of firing or punishment. Hiding them away when you think you might be being cheated is the most reckless thing you could do. It’s very simple
far more people would benefit from the sharing of payslips than would suffer. This lady may never have had a problem if her payslips were shared much earlier as the issue would have been rectified immediately.
@@joem4939 what's a good reason to share your payslip?
Lawsuit against employer due to missed tax credits?
Not just lost tax credits but income tax paid on that money too needs to be put into the calculation.
She won't have paid any tax, she's on tax credits.
She was also willing to forgo tax credits because her overpayment was more than the credits .
She knew what she was doing, and eventually got caught, pay up.
@@kevinclark1992 Being on tax credits doesn't mean you pay no tax.
Tell them you can only afford to pay back £5 a month 😂
I've spotted payroll errors and in most cases it's HR communicating or not communicating this information to the Payroll team. This includes someone who wasn't paid for 2 months who didn't even notice and someone who wasn't getting a secondment allowance due to them and hadn't noticed..... If people don't notice when they're being underpaid I can believe people not spotting when they are overpaid. In both cases I notified the individuals and it was resolved.
Do a runner !
Actually they started paying her correct 3 years ago. So she only owes 3 years if they can go back 6 years.. so owes roughly 6k.
The fact of the matter also is never trust your colleagues they can be vindictive, i assumed you can only go back 6 yrs
I'd say I'll pay the remaining amount back over the amount of years you made the error. So pay back whats owed for 3 years over 9 years.
There is no chance she didnt know they hasnt adjusted her pay. She played the game and is now finding out.
You can always count on colleagues :)
What wasn't mentioned would have been the over payment of Income Tax, National Insurance and pension contributions, this would all need to be sorted out, and would i hope make an impact on the amount repayable by the lady in question
Moral of the story, actually have a clue about the situation and the reason you are ringing prior to calling a talk show. It’s amazing how many people are clueless about their own finances as this clearly demonstrates
Ask for details of each over payment there allege, there have no right to recover it as long as you never know about the overpayment at the time.
Seriously, the law should be changed. If you overpay someone, then it’s tough, your mistake, your problem.
Maybe they’ll put in more effort to stop overpaying people.
the Very Basic employment law as I understand it, are if your boss/senior manager say's something work related and you say yes, if nothing changes in 3mnths it can be deemed, as a agreed contract,
She should be glad that they didn’t try to sort it out straight away, as then she would have had to pay six of nine years but now it’s half that.
Sums up the Public sector
Sums up a tory mindset
Just drag it out, someone in the dept might just give up on it!
Bit worried about the comments in here. The lady is aware she got overpaid and should pay it back. The employer is not acting unlawfully
She seems to have changed her position by not claiming additional tax credits due to a long period of overpayment by the employer - are we sure that a full repayment will for that period id in fact due?
They can only reclaim 6 years like he said, and since the last 3 years were paid correctly, they can only claim 3 of the 9 years worth. Thats likley around £7k based on the numbers she gave.
String it out as much as you can, and you might push that 3 years owed down to 2, which would bring it down to about £5k.
Argue that the extra money paid would have been more heavily taxed (as it would have been above the tax free throeshold) and you might push that £5k down to about £3.5k
Kick up a stink and agree to pay back 50% of it in a one off lump sum, and they may likely take you up on that to avoid balifs. That'll being it down to about £1.5k-£2k to pay back.
If they're going to be awkward, you can be awkward right back.
It is usually written in your contract to report any errors in your wages to HR/payroll immediately
I’ve had to pursue someone for a similar figure because they went down to part time and still received full time salary
Had another employee get dismissed and still have to pay the funds back
If she’s a homeowner they can even possibly put a charge against the house - they can definitely go ccj/bailiffs route
What about estoppel?
how can any1 not know how much they get paid
But if I accidentally stay at work late a few hours every month for years because it is busy I'm guessing I can't claim money from my employer because its my mistake and my responsibility to leave on time...
I don't know how you could possibly "accidentally" stay late at work for a period of hours but either way this isn't about the mistake but about what is in the contract.
If your contract says you work 40hrs a week for £x then you work 40 hours and get £x. You can't unilaterally change the contract by staying late and forcing the employer to pay your for it, especially if you do it "by mistake" unless that overtime forms part of your contract.
@@boostar155 I think you can definitely stay late my 15 mins to 30 mins which will add up over the time you are there.
The point is if I did make a mistake that resulted in me working longer hours over a period of years (Although I don't care, this was the case in my last job where as far as I was concerned I only had a 30 minute unpaid break but I did also have a 15 minute paid tea break which I knew nothing about for like the first year of my employment) I am not compensated for my mistake or I am not suddenly allowed to work slightly less to make back the time.
But if an employer pays you too much which can also include accidentally paying someone too much in their contract employers have the right to seek repayments in some situations.
Maybe she shouldn’t show other staff her wage slips.
Custom and practice. Tell them to suck on it
If i had changed my hours i would expect my wages to be changed also . She is playing dumb here , she knows she is in the wrong .
All the bootlickers jumping in the side of a local authority
If she was aware, I doubt she would’ve showed her payslips to a colleague, especially one that would snitch on her.
@@stuc3195bootlickers for not wanting someone to be paid more taxpayers money than they’re entitled to.
Muggy mindset you have there
@cobieharrison1369 proper little collaborator you'd be. Dangerous nark
@@stuc3195 You're definitely on benefits
Sounds like she knew exactly what was going on!
Sounds like you’ve done the same before @bossyswab😅
Doesn't apply to this case but there is an exception to having to repay over payments (I know because this happened to me): If you are overpaid, you tell your employer that they have overpaid you (in my case former employer by the time it happened, it was a bonus they paid long after I was layed off) but they insist in writing that you weren't overpaid, then on the basis of that you go and spend the money in good faith, and then they come back later and say they were wrong and that actually they did overpay you, they have no recourse to get it back. There is already legal precedent for this in British courts.
But how could this lady NOT have noticed she was being so over paid until she showed someone a pay slip?
The lady did notice it, but played dumb. get it?
over a decade? i think 22k over payment over ten years is small enough that you could not realise it
After tax and ni, she was probably getting £100 extra a month. Not really noticeable, especially considering yearly increases, National insurance changes ect ect
@@andigoraniI bet she'd have noticed if she was underpaid. Typical public sector.
It’s about £40 a week ish. Hardly a crazy amount to notice.
Got double paid once but repaid it immediately and told the MD. He simply said oh thanks. Should have kept it!
The law needs changing. This is ridiculous. Perhaps if a big mistake like extra zeros then allow to recover in 3mths. They shouldn't even be allowed to adjust her salary now. I know where i worked previously thst sort of thing happened all the time and it had to be left as is.. Time to look for a new job.
There’s no way on gods green earth that she didn’t know she was being over paid for 9yrs. Unless she’s claiming plain stupidity or ignorance. She no doubt tried to flex her wages to someone and it backfired. So for being disingenuous she’s now paying the consequences down the line and playing the victim 🤦 she reaped the benefits for 9ys being paid more than she was entitled too. 0 sympathy at all. More fool the employers for employing such people, and making the mistake but that doesn’t give her the right to ride off into the sunset scot-free after keeping over 20k of money that clearly wasn’t hers in the first place. Reverse the roles, the employer has been under paying for 9yrs, now tell me who’s in the wrong.
Overpaid in the public sector is standard
Ignorance isnt an excuse im afraid.
£1 a week for their mistake.
Geraldine apparently still doesn't know what she's meant to get paid, what she currently gets paid and how much she's been overpaid. I can see the staff member knowing this and managing to confirm it after years of suspect. Think how hard people work to have a pay rise, to fight for job benefits and Geraldine is pleasing ignorance for 12 years of "apparently" being overpaid. Claiming negligence and being none the wiser and blaming the employer (their responsibility almost wholly) doesn't absolve her of any responsibility either.
Not sure he is right on the clawback period
That's employers for you just expecting tax credits to pick up the slack.
We should up the minimum wage to a decent level and completely get rid of all tax credits.
To be honest you've lucked out that they can only claim back 3 years. I'd take that and be happy.
Your colleague is a grass. Shouldn't have shown them anything!
Oh come up you dont get paid an extra 22k and not realise.
That's over a period of 10 years. So the extra money would have been around 40 a week.
I know that this is bolting the stable door, but in that situation, knowing that I was being paid too much, I would have put the excess into a separate account or very conservative investment (to earn a bit of money) until it was sorted out. Of course, I wouldn't have revealed that bit to anyone because they might come after that interest as well.
What about the income tax that was paid on the £22,000? It might have even put her into a higher tax bracket as well.
It might have been better to put the excess into a private pension plan to accumulate a nice pension plot as well as paying less income tax as well. Again, that's no-one business but your own.
Too late for this poor lady but I hope it's resolved soon because such things are very stressful for most normal people.
the higher tax bracket, the loss of WT credits, the smartest thing to do would have been to raise the issue with them straight away.
putting the money aside in an investment scheme may have caused them to accumulate enough money to be ineligible for WT credits.
Pension funds rarely pay out what you put in so a bit pointless doing that.
She got caught, she was underpaid WT credits due to the surplus and she would be entitled to get retrospective incrwase in WT credits and owes a substantial amount of money.
I want to know how she is entitled to tax credits. When she's been overpaid, 2000 pounds a month. Where most people don't make 2000 pounds a month on a 9-5 working wage
Not per month, per year.
What about that the fact she had less tax credit coming .
Never ever tell a colleague your salary
That’s just playing into the hands of management
She cut her hours and claims she didn't notice that the boss was paying her the same as her previous hours ... Laughable !!!
Dumb comment. 22k over 10 years is 2.2k a year. 2.2k a year is £183 a month. Factor in tax and other reductions and its less in her pay pack. So, she adjusts her hours and doesnt notice a £100 difference in pay.
What if she also does shift? has shift allowances, performance bonus... etc yada-yada-yada....
Basically my pay pack (as a public sector employee) fluctuates more than 200-300 a month. If you think im chasing down every penny month to month... well then you must be a poor person ;) joking. Thats a joke, dont get offended. Its totally possible she didn't notice the change, its totally possible that the difference was masked by many other factors. There are different amounts of days in a month, most paypacks DO fluctuate by that amount just from sheer numbers of days in each month.
If you make min wage of £12/h then even having 1-2 days different in a month already is the equivilent of this.
NOW. Lets do it in reverse. Given that its £183 a month, how much do you think her hours have changed? Because I KNOW your making some stupid assumption that shes gone from doing like 5 days a week to 4 days a week. NONONONONO. Simple maths shows that she reduced her hours by £183 a month, which at minimum wage is 15h PER MONTH. She basically works 2 less days a month than she did before.
Given that months shift by 1-2 working days across many months.... And thats if shes MIN wage. If she earns more, then its even LESS hours.
Its LAUGHABLE at how most people cant come to reasonable or common sense logic, when what they REALLY want to do; is blame someone and for someone to be a bad guy/person.
It's not her responsibility to correct her employers mistakes
@@robertproudfoot7990its incumbent on you to know what you are due to be paid, how can people be so oblivious to their finances, you are a single person.
It's basically a fiver a day , a minimum wage worker wouldn't notice that on his wage
@ financial illiteracy isn’t an excuse, learn how much you are due and be better. By the sounds of you set up its you thats the bum. You keep ignoring your payslip that your boss gives you… poor cunt
Has she not had any pay rises in 9 years? Id assume if i had a pay rise that was the new rate
She checked and she knew.
If she was paid less than what she was meant to get, she would have made a big fuss.
Exactly. I hope Geraldine loses everything and becomes a tramp on the streets 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Why she showing her payslips to anyone and her friend screwed her over lol
its a women ......
What about the underpaid tax credits then?
Local authority. Overpaying. Nothing to see here.
🤣🤣🤣
We need more government
She knew wat she was doing
This sounds like a gaggle of idiots.
This lady has no idea how much she is supposed to be being paid - or where the error is.
The person who grassed her into management - what is their problem. Bullied at school
The manager who said they are going to instruct bailiffs - how is this person in a management position
nobody goes to school planning to work for a council. Those jobs are reserved for people who can't do any better...
I know very few people who can rigorously check their pay slips. I only know how to do it because I used to run my own small business in the 1980s and I worked out the payroll using books of tables provided by the UK Inland Revenue. But most employees simply don't know how their annual salary gets divvied up each month, nor how the deductions are done. Many don't understand the meaning of their tax codes, some don't even know their annual salary. Most of us simply rely on the computer to get it right (which it does 99.99% of the time) until something goes wrong.
I don't think the person who grassed her into management necessarily had it out for her, I imagine they were upset she was on fewer hours getting paid the same and they were angling for a pay rise and it backfired.
“Gaggle of idiots” stealing this 😂
@@mandolinic She wouldn't need to check her payslip "rigorously" though. Clearly if she's doing fewer hours her pay should go down. Either spread out over the year or reduced on whichever months the kids are out of school.
Nobody is expecting her to know to the penny what she should be being paid (although with various calculators freely available on line it should not be be a massive undertaking given her pay would presumably have been discussed when she went term-time) but to merely have a basic understanding that fewer hours = less pay.
She seems to be switched on enough to have figured out that she could have claimed tax credits if she had been paid correctly, which would suggest that she knew a lot more than she is letting on.
What about tax youve paid on the amount ?
She was still getting paid benefits, so i doubt she was paying any tax.
So if the emp!yer, drags their feet longer, it is only when it they make a claim in the court that the 6 years starts? So if takes them another year to make a claim would the lady only have to payback 2 years of overpayment?
No. It is 6 years from the "cause of action" which would almost certainly be when the overpayment was made. Thus anything greater than 6 years ago would not be retrievable in court.
There are some exceptions to this, fraud or deliberate concealment being one but I think they'd be hard pressed to prove that, especially if she went to her employer of her own volition 3 years ago.
@boostar155 yeah I worded my post wrong.
Avoid a debt for 6 Yr it gets quashed
Not necessarily
Depends on a few things
@marlonthomas8042 hope not..avoided water bills for 17years
@@jaydee641 are you still with the same water company or hve your moved around?
Sounds like Diane abbot maths this one
Naddine Dorris maths
Boris Johnson maths
Good news Diane Abbot is making a comeback, she’ll sort it for the lady. She doesn’t owe 22k she owes £22m or maybe billion.
She's entitled for legal help. By experience if you dig deep enough you would find out that any employer ripp you off on something. Mine did and they can bugger off
I’ve only listened to three of your show clips on RUclips, Daniel, but I’ve already formed the opinion that you seem to attract overpaid, underperforming public sector employees who want to take the taxpayer for everything they can get!
The public sector mentality is appalling.
Their sense of entitlement and none accountability is shocking. This woman knew from day one that she was being over paid and took a chance that her employer would never realise. She gambled and only partially lost.
She should shut up and pay back what she legally has to.
Well then being slow worked in her favour there 🤣
What an interesting story.
Why do equitable principles of fairness like estoppel and change of position which are well esablished in common law never enter these discussions?
Excellent point.