my wife started playing recently and she loved the story and leveling, in fact she loved it more than playing lvl 60 content so she did all the quests of the game and played all the expansions with her character to see the full game but then... she thought about playing another class and thats when she hated the game saying "do i have to do everything again? really?"
@@mikko3 she played all the expansions and did all the quests, but she got tired of playing the same character so she wanted to try another one. thats when she realized she lost everything that she had done till now.
How did your wife figure out how to follow the storyline from the very beginning, through all the expansions? I was never able to figure it out. I would start (with my sister pointing out where the quest was), and follow along to a certain point, and then it would disappear and I couldn’t figure out where to go for the next storyline quest. Also was she playing solo? I found it nearly impossible to do the quests solo after a certain point. It was frustrating. I would take any advice on that.
Got RUclips on Auto-play, Asmon comes up, and randomly hear my voice... dude, surreal. I Don't know what to say other than thank you! I'm beyond happy so many people liked the video!
@@valerierodger7700 The sad part is, it's been built around survivalship bias since 2008. Most of the people who talk about the game are hardcore players themselves, this video being a rare exception. If you ever hear anyone tell you that this game is casual-friendly, run.
The biggest reason I quit WoW after over 15 years was that it felt like the game was literally trying to drive me away since I was in the midcore range. I'm cool with doing some busy work stuff to accomplish my goals to promptly clear heroic, do some mythic, and push higher keys but the amount it forced me to play to stay relevant just kept ramping up to the point I had to come home after work and grind AP for at least 1-2 hours in BFA. By the time Shadowlands hit full swing I was so burnt out, the lawsuit stuff was so demoralizing to myself and my guild all had enough, and I didn't have the motivation to find a new one since I was already so drained. If things look like they'll be different for Dragonlands or whatever its called I'll come check it out but if worst comes to worse I'll just keep playing other stuff.
i never had to grind ap and i mythic raided in bfa. by the 8th week i literally logged in for 30 mins a day then twice a week for raiding. Logging in for raiding became the real chore, and i quit the game before the 2nd raid came out lol. Haven't played since, but i did play a bit of tbc classic.
@@hidanakatsuki2420 i remember quitting current wow for 5 months, when i came back zereth mortis was out, i just did some questing from korthia to unlock flying and then get on the zereth campaing, bought tons of gear from the vendor and i was gucci to go do stuff, getting shit little by little all in the spam of a week. My toon on tbc on the other hand (i was a tank) got TRASHED, literally nobody wants me, even tho i worked hard to get the badges to buy all the badge gear to be relevant, NO ONE wants me to tank a raid cuz "you're not decked in t6 gear no way you can tank gruul or mag, let alone a TK boss". Im fully decked in epics, got all the stats needed, yet people want me to have stuff that i literally cannot have because the content it is in i cant play it cuz they wont let me. People told me to go for an offspec but now i need to grind the pre-bis of that offspec and prolly get into GDKPS but i dont have enough gold either to get into those because they ask for 10k gold +. Old wow has its flaws only because of current people being over perfectionists, havent found a casual guild that let me attempt a shot at any of the ssc-tk-bt raids even tho im geared for them at least on faerlina horde Current wow instead let me catch up and still gave me the option to do the stuff i missed on if i so desired, and didnt made mandatory a lot of stuff (even tho before the latest patch they pretty much were mandatory) but thats just to keep you playing. The thing they said about the last patch of the xpac always being the best to play on is true since you catch up on everything pretty much
I used to be a hardcore player, but after I got my degree, an appartment and got a job, I just did not have the time anymore. I was too tired to get involved in raids, dungeons, etc. The game did not really push what I did like (weird achievements, exploring, etc.). I realised that I did not have the time or interest to keep up with others. So I quit WoW and I play games that do not request so much time and effort.
@@rj4n Guild Wars 2 is super casual friendly, they have a lot of horizontal progresion, wich means that old things have the same power/value of new things. You don't need to be with the last gear to be at the top lvl, if you have a max lvl character with good gear, leave the game for 2 years and then come back, that character will still be a chr with good gear, even compared to characters with new things
Same, working on my career, building relationships, new outdoor hobbies, and getting involved in my community have taken the place of my previous gaming time, so now I mostly play slower strategy games that I can save my turn and think about when I have some free time and set up when I log back in, but don't require all my time. I think it is a healthy balance.
Im wondering how much the older generation is shaping gaming developments. It seems many games are getting easier and there is more instant gratification. I thought that was because of the new generation. But perhaps it actually is because of the previous generation settling in a different phase of their lives with much less time to go by. Personally I just stay out of mmo's and other games entirely. Just don't have the time to keep up. And there is actually a real danger to my RL if I would get caught in them too much, so better just not touch them at all.
I feel like the problem with soulbinds, conduits and covenants isn’t necessarily the fact that you can’t change in between them so easily. I kinda understand why they wanted to “make the choice meaningful”. The problem is that the meaning of the choice is you either play normally or you suck. There’s too much discrepancy between the choices and the power gap is painful. If you want to put something behind a choice, make all options equal so that you don’t have to choose performance, but instead just how you play.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
This touched on the fundamental issue with the game and that is they forgot their own company's philosophy of "Is it fun?" I swear at some point they hired a mobile game producer who integrated KPIs and decided every corner of new content must be designed to be experienced by the player precisely to determine and maximize the player's time spent in the game. Remember old zones where you could find areas that weren't directly tied to narrative or even side quests? Those don't exist anymore. All of SL zones must be explored and experienced through the game's narrative and questing system. There's nothing to discover anymore because Blizzard will force you to eventually experience everything they've designed for you to spend time on.
Oh no 100% they did employed mobile/gacha pros so they can raise time people spent in game it was mentioned many, many times in span of few years we knew that they care about amount of time people engage in game than "fun" they had. For a reason we call it blizzard "no fun allowed". Other prove is that they are literat making diablo immortal on mobile and wow unnanoined yet (but mentioned in quarterly reports) wow mobile game. Ehh there's spots you dont discover in sl through quets line tho, like those floating Isles in ardenwald with random npcs you had to glide before flying and some other hidden spots
@@lordbstarkhell5471 issue is wow for quite a while was not only subbed but timegated/with pay to win accomodities (wow token) so its more of a hybrid at this moment
@@ich3730 In some circumstances it can be sure, however if you design every square inch of the world to be experienced in a linear fashion like we've seen in recent xpacs, it makes the world feel much smaller, and kills any sense of exploration or discovery. These elements used to be a cornerstone of MMOs, but now everything is designed in a way to force players into commiting 'x' number of hours.
no you forgot you are not the center of the universe and started to demand otehr players acomplishments were retroactively made less because you cant meet the challenge. Dogshit playerbase of idiots, no wonder any and all normal players run the fuck away. Casual cancer is all thats left.
I play games 30+ hours a week, and every time I come back to WoW, just thinking about all the things I have to do to even get my foot into the door of any kind of raiding guild at all is overwhelming and the work is not fun at all. There are so many games I'd rather be playing instead of spending weeks catching up to systems and managing addons I don't derive any enjoyment from. Before MoP, all you had to do was hit the level cap and run some dungeons and you are ready to run some normal raids.
To be fair, that's all that's really required right now as well. The problem is the player base being hyper focused on min-maxing everything, parses, and logs.
@@MIngalls You've always had to do some type of grind to have decent enough gear to do a raid. Conduits are given to you at this point that are good enough to do normal raids. You're given gear that's level 233 which is also fine for raiding on normal. You bring up the major power differences in one piece of gear vs another. You're focusing on min-maxing aspects, which I said you can avoid and just play. A full raid with base gear and a decent raid leader can do the raids. You said you don't care much about raid, so what do you care about? High keys? If so you're living in the hardcore world by definition of playing difficult content so min-maxing becomes progressively important and you're just grinding dungeons any way. Getting a legendary is unlegendary in difficulty. Do torghast 3 times and you're fine. Pretty basic grind at this point.
@@richardf9121 yep. It's pretty much that simple. It's not as bad as people make it out to be. The player base is looking at content creators who either play at a high level or have their fans carry them. The regular player isn't running mythic raids or 15+ keys.
if you arent ready to run normals after doing some dungeons then thats a skill issue, not a game issue. the first 7 bosses of the new raid are literally braindead and basically have no mechanics as long as you have a functioning brain
"If I have to spend any time leveling a character im pissed" and here we have the reason WoW leveling sucks I used to enjoy leveling a lot of peoplel did but blizzard ruined it by streamlining it
Bad take. The problem wasn't that they made it easier, it's that everyone has done it before. There's no version of leveling up in World of Warcraft people want to do again. It should be removed entirely.
I seriously hate what blizzards become. I always remember being so excited for new releases from blizzard now you can guarantee it's going to be boring or garbage.
They haven't changed, they got replaced. As did most studios and publishers. The hard working nerds who loved making games got replaced with greedy goblins that only care about making bigger and bigger stacks of cash that they can shove up their asses and snowflakes that care more about their identity than their job.
@@danialyousaf6456 Unfortunately those hard working nerds were sometimes actual manchildren like the Jeff Hamilton guy. Thankfully he left Blizzard but man, that guy was on a powertrip.
Thank you for talking me out of getting back into Wow. I used to be utterly addicted, and I've been thinking about getting back in. After watching a bunch of your vids I have no urge to get back into it.
It's still fun, I've played since end of vanilla / start of TBC. Took a break during MOP and started again during season 3 of shadowlands. I'm glad I started playing again, I love wow. If you ever enjoyed the game, it's still worth a sub. Gamers are just super entitled these days and all think they are game developers. Just appreciate it for what it is, and don't obsess over it.
However I will say the wow token is bullshit 🤣 it made it pay to be great. You can still be good and definitely reach end game with only a subscription though. You do not have to buy the token, it just makes things easier.
@@TheGoatLocker I started playing WoW around the start of Burning Crusade, and I played pretty solidly until around Panda/Cata. I played hard-core from WOTLK forward, and i had some amazing times-but I was also hopelessly addicted. Every aspect of my life revolved around WoW, I knew this, but didn't care cause I loved the game and the people I played with. That said, panda wasn't that great, and cata was "ok," and I started to get back into magic the Gathering again. I realized that the only way to truly stop playing wow was to delete everything, I deleted all the items off my characters, then deleted all the characters, and deleted all the files of my computer-had to be sure. I haven't played wow since cata, but as I mentioned lately I was feeling the pull back. Though when I really thought about it I realized I've been down that road, and I know exactly where it leads for me.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
There needs to be more than just end game raiding. Almost every update is one dimensional. Very few are about world building. Adding "width" to the game for those bored of raiding, or those who simply don't want to raid. After almost 20 years WoW could have developed a lot more scope than it has.
But the entire revamp of the leveling system is exclusively not for endgame, and is the best it has ever been though? It feels a bit unfair to complain about stuff being for endgame and then ignoring everything they have done (level squish, scaling zones, chromie time) and now cross faction coming and only look at "endgame" wasnt the entirety of 9.1 and 9.2 (not having played them) about getting new leveling zones and new stuff to do, that didnt purely involve raiding?
@@zoulsgaming9455 that was all stuff that was done to streamline the game and make it as fast and simple as possible to get to end game content, not to make open world content more expansive or immersive.
@@bigpod Something like that. The game has some width until you reach endgame, then the only two activities are raids, and dailies (which are really grinding in prep for raids). Everything else is a waste of time at that point. I play EvE and have for almost 15 years. The last time I took part in a ship to ship fight was about 3 years ago. I play the stock market, mine and explore. All vital to the game and rewarding. (I have been ganked twice in that time mind you, and almost ganked more times than I can count) :)
@@PaulRoneClarke i would love that kind of market vibrancy in wow i tend to do professions and leveling myself but it just isnt the same as i hear EveOnline does, actually tried eve myself but i honestly more got into their articles and some talks by makers about how their server/cluster architecture and security works then into actual game
30:16 This literally happened to me not so long ago in a private server, but not because I was a girl, but because they just invited someone else instead right at the last moment. Got promised a raid spot, spent days rushing to max level, playing all day to get as fully geared as I could to prep for progression. Raid day comes and I'm there waiting for invite, I see the raid time is already running late and everyone is inside the raid, I ask one of the officers and they respond "we're full." I uninstalled that day.
I consider myself casual because even though I put in enough play time and care enough about the game to know the lore, know the story and spend the rest of my free time reading, thinking and watching stuff about the game but I absolutely can't be assed to do raiding or pvp. I RP, I vibe, I do legacy content for transmog and mounts and I have a blast.
If raiding wasnt such a nightmare and half your time didnt go into finding a group I'm sure you would really enjoy it. But yeah I fully understand your point.
I feel like this is what the MMO player is supposed to be like. MMO's tend to have worse content, mechanics, gameplay, but TONS of players. If you're not socializing and making your own fun, why even play an MMO? Like, what's the fun of stressing and spending HOURS making a little number go higher so you can farm a piece of loot that does nothing more than make that number a tiny bit higher so you can repeat? To me, socializing, competing, and roleplaying are what MMOs are made for. If you're just grinding numbers to blindly chase a dopamine release in your limbic system, you're not really having any more fun than a donkey chasing a carrot tied to a stick. Sure, you got a carrot in the end, but the person holding the stick has infinite carrots.
@@kokorochacarero8003 I described every MMO since 2010. Destiny had me grinding hours od mediocre Halo gameplay to do raids with my friends, just to find out that they've already moved on by the time I get there.
Id rather do the raid like 10 times and get all the transmogs instead of random percentages drops. I really dislike that mechanism. You could run icecrown hundreds of times and never get invincible.
@@sepsam4556 I don't like raiding not because you have 24 other players there, but because the boss has cheating stats and cheating abilities and cheating immunities. A raid boss should be exactly equal to a player and a boss fight should be exactly equal to a pvp fight.
I remember playing during wrath of the lich King and really enjoying it because it was such a change from how complicated final fantasy 11 felt. FF11 did have some serious hardcore content that could take hours and required the cooperation of up to 60 people sometimes (Dynamis) or more. I never felt that the game made itself difficult, the people did. I couldn't imagine enjoying WoW today with such a narrow focus on endgame.
Aaaah dynamis....the deathfest....lol! I tried wow when i played 11. It felt too dumbed down and didn't make it past lv 20. I don't see many people mention ffxi much anymore. Many hours of linkshell shenanigans and good friends. Miss those days!
The main problem with mmos in general is that grinding feels unrewarding. Grinding should be something that you do on your own initiative to get ahead, not requierd to acces content in game.
Spicy take, I think wakfu(my MMO of choice) does t gate keep "the fun parts" behind levels. Actually the exact opposite. Once you hit level 20(easily doable in under 2 hours), you unlock every single profession market and relavant MMO area in the game. Leveling unlocks the plot as well as the meanest most unfair convoluted fights in the game. Most people I know who play leveled to a level they like(as in the mobs and bosses are still fun for them), and become either guild members, competitive players(because pvp content is scaled to preset levels, only once in a blue moon is the a PvP area opened up for max level players, it ranged from 35(someone with 5 hours of grinding or 10 hours of messing with professions and only fighting mobs here and there) to 230(the max level). Anyone with over 10 hours in the game has access to competitive PvP, and the majority of the player base plays for professions/guilds. I think MMOs need a warm fuzzy community as well as a progression system that doesn’t gate keep the entire draw of the game. From what I’ve heard of WoW it fails at both of these leading to me only hearing bad things and never being told I should give it a try… I think most MMOs fail at one or both of these
@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly Haven't played WoW for a few years, I don't know what you are referring to and am genuinely curious. What are you talking about? Couldn't find anything by googling this.
I remember Cataclysm, and I remember literally no casuals ever asking for LFR at the time. Casuals wanted more accessible dungeons like they had in WotLK. The problem was that Ion didn't sign on to design dungeons. He wanted to design raids, but hardly anyone raided. LFR was simply Blizzard's way of justifying more raids. It's OK for dungeons to be one and done when everyone's a raider. Before LFR, every content drop included new dungeons. After LFR, it was raid, raid, raid, and more raid with your raid. This idea that LFR was made for casuals is a complete fabrication. When was the last time anyone and their 25 casual friends ever hooked up to casually run content? What casuals wanted was a chill 5-man untimed dungeon experience that didn't punish you for bringing along your alcoholic buddy who shows up plastered to the Friday night beer league dungeon runs. What we have now is a choice between a 25-man easy mode raid with no organization whatsoever and a 5-man tryhard experience that punishes you for running with players who don't eat, sleep, and breathe the game. Neither appeals to casuals who are looking for a social experience.
It's ironic because the raids in Cata sucked, bad. LFR sucked. Blizzard was already messing up in Wrath with the dungeon finder so LFR was no big surprise.
30:15 This is actually pretty close to what happened to me and my wife (then girlfriend) back in Legion. Back then, they had only recently started adding old raids to the Timewalking content and they had brought Ulduar into the WotLK Timewalking event. Cool, pretty exciting, I was looking forward to running through it and my girlfriend was pretty new to the game, but she wanted to get into raiding. I asked a guy who was getting a pug together if we could join and he was cool with it. We get through the first few bosses with no problems, get stomped by XT-002 and since we committed the sin of the first wipe of the raid, half the raid left. Okay cool. We slog through some of the other bosses, but manage to get to Yogg nonetheless. By this point, the ~25 people that we had started with whittled down to 14, half of them being the raid lead and his guildies. Nobody knows how to do the fight apparently and we figured out that the clouds that spawn around the room turn into those Faceless One mobs if you touch them. Obviously, don't fucking touch them, right? We keep trying and keep wiping because there were a lot of times where a cloud would spawn on top of us when we huddled together - I still don't know if that's the strat there or not - but after a while this raid lead would just blame my girlfriend for running into the clouds. She wasn't, I was literally watching her movements as we were doing attempts and she stayed just about on top of the group the entire time. He started arguing with us that she was dragging down the raid, completely ignoring the fact that we were pretty much half-staffed for the raid and her dps was actually pretty solid. He starts the fight, half the group isn't ready, we wipe because nobody's grouped up, he starts shouting at her again and kicks her from the raid. He tried going back into discussing strategies and I'm just like "You can keep trying with your shitshow guild all you like, you can either apologize to my girlfriend and invite her back or you can figure this out without her AND your top dps." I was the only one doing consistently high damage for the entire raid so this dude got all flustered and tried making excuses about "she obviously doesn't understand the raid," "she can't even play her class right," whatever else. Soon as he said "she's just a dumb girl" I cut him off to say "and you're a dumbfuck GM who can't manage a guild well enough to run Ulduar without having to resort to getting a pug together, so go fuck yourself" and left the call. The other people in the call whispered me and let me know that they never got the Yogg kill and it was a shitshow, the GM kept kicking people for "insubordination" and went on a rant at one point about how girls don't know how to play video games and they're useless. I sincerely hope that when they do the expansion announcement tomorrow, they make some mention of how they're going to handle player toxicity. Getting kicked from a dungeon because you don't have the latest version of an addon or because your DPS is below the 99th percentile is fucking stupid and should be punishable. Telling people to kill themselves because they don't know boss mechanics should be punishable. Being a toxic cunt should be punished with a timeout so they can think about what they've done and stop being a toxic cunt. Also requiring addons to raid blows. If the game isn't telegraphing a boss's attack that will rock my shit, then why am I being punished for not using the 3rd party addon that someone HAD to develop so that attack DOES get telegraphed?
Lol sounds so much like my raiding experience in bfa.. I joined a raiding guild with my boyfriend, we were doing nyalotha, worked super hard to go from normal to heroic. All the while I got zero respect or acknowledgement from any of the other raiders. I topped the dps meters 90% of the time, I knew my tactics and I was never obnoxious or attentionseeking in discord, only discussing raid tactics and not really talking much otherwise. They would ignore me all the time, 'forget' my raid invites eventhough I was always signed up on time. They would only communicate to my boyfriend, invite him and then 'forget' me (we always raided together and I even helped him understand the tactics etc). I always put in my 100% and they'd disrespect me to my face, congratulated people below me on the dps charts on their amazing numbers and often just ignore me all together. They basically bullied me off the team, made my boyfriend raid officer. I left that guild and some other women who were in there later also left saying it happened to them too. One of the guys we raided with even asked specifically why my boyfriend left and that they missed him, when my boyfriend mentioned me they literally asked 'who was that? I don't know that person'.. I fucking raided with them every week.. This left me with such a nasty feeling I never touched a raid since 😖
@@KoiaKiss doesn't surprise me. Most of those hard-core guilds are incels living in their mothers basement who look like the guy from the Southpark WoW episode. They hate on women cause yall have standards and won't date them. Honestly surprised I've never been kicked out of a guild for being gay yet tbh.
@@KoiaKiss Incels can't handle women being better than them. The worst thing you could of done is actually be good, it immediately doomed you. Now granted they are a bunch of incels so fuck them, just a shame that the raid scene lost what sounded like a good raider and I honestly don't blame you for not coming backm
Can you imagine how wicked a mage tower type thing would be for leveling? Have it be 60 floors, level per floor, do some challenges that increase in difficulty, however far you make it is the level you start at. Only for alts though*
@@DanielK-rr5mz so what? peoples second pickins should be easier? and the person who dedicated themselves to a class should have it harder than a weak impatient fuckwith? What kind of lazy idiot logic is that?
@@86Corvusmy guy did you read the comment? He said for alts, so the same way if he mained a shaman and played to level 60, if your alt was a shaman it would work the same way. Relax
What I would like to see is random quests. You walk into a cave (anywhere in the game) and you find a Quest or Chest or Rare Mob or Boss. Perhaps you are sent to a dungeon, say Deadmines for a solo mission. The dungeon scales appropriately, and so on. And you can find BiS gear this way too - because - why not? If you raid, it should be because you want to defeat the bosses not just to find gear. Obviously raidbosses might drop specific items/mounts etc. But I would very much like to see more adventure, randomly, everywhere that is truly rewarding.
Biggest problem for new players would be that they're not treated as new players, if you've been playing wow for years you probably won't notice it but if you start right now with no knowledge of wow universe, you'll get no where without extensive research about lore, mechanics, optimal farming and what addons to download.
That is not true. YOu can get anywhere in the game as a new player. It barely requires a brain. WoW is pro casual as fuck. - There are tons of guides for everything - Almost Entire community already knows what to do so you can go ask anyone for help - There is LFR to beat the entire game in one run
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
"that's why I'm glad they have the $60 boost" -- you have it backwards you meant to say "that's WHY they have the $60 boost" it's no accident that the ultra expensive store item feels like a necessity
It's worse than just casual players. WoW devs, in one of their more idiotic business moves, have decided to focus exclusively on people who already play WoW. New players, no matter how dedicated, are gonna struggle. This is yet another product of the fragile egos at Blizzard. They're only interested in people who already like the game. Otherwise, they might have to face and actually deal with the massive deficiencies in their product.
I have tried to get my friend into WoW and he is very intimidated by its interface and these aren't people that don't play games, these are full time gamers. Its a very old school game still and I doubt without a ground up rebuild it will remain mostly for existing WoW players as a drastic change would alienate veterans but I can't think of many games these days that almost require a UI mod to play the game, then you have to get used to setting up weak auras, binding your keys to mouse/keyboard with shift/alt modifiers also and then make macro's. There is no way anyone would know this without either a friend or dedicating a good few hours of time to researching videos on UI mods and spec rotations. Maybe they could add a new UI but leave the option open for a 'Classic UI' mode that still leaves access to what long time players are used to?
@@johnnygraz4712 The UI is hard stuck in 1366x768, all it does is upscale and downscale poorly. Even UI replacements have to work within these constraints, best example I can give is how even with ElvUI font scaling is completely fucked, and that's not on the guys that develop ElvUI, the API is what they're stuck with. I cannot even begin to tell you how incredibly infuriating it is that players will sit and get snowed by fake ass "story" controversies contrived by blizzard to paper over and distract from actual problems, like UI art assets that literally have not been remastered or updated in nearly 20 years. The game is fucking unplayable without a UI replacement and addons. They've gotten so lazy with their telegraphs that you NEED to play with DBM to even know what the fuck is going on in a fight, at the simplest level just past solo world content. Even in solo content it's frustrating to even tell what is going on most the time and you're just overgearing shit. For a community that is so stuck in on the "git gud" mentality, which seems to have a significant overlap with the same soulslike attitudes, this is just baffling. Soulslikes live or die on the quality of their telegraphs, the player not knowing what the fuck is even happening is not a failure of the player, it's the goddamn game not telling them what they need to know. I just love how they'll stick you with some 2 paragraph long debuff that'll wipe the group and expect you to read that shit while you've got a 2x2 moving safe spot on the ground, while hitting defensives to offset unavoidable damage, and trying to get your convoluted rotation off the ground.
the devs were also exposed to be a part of the "lower" %/IDK/IDC playergroup that would rarely complete any hard content....as their basis of the state of the game. From their player experience at least
This is why I prefer playing on private servers if I just wanna dink around the game. It doesn’t cost me anything and I can still play through the story content without being limited since a lot of those will allow you faster levelling or something or other that improves the gamer experience over what blizzard is selling you.
Played WoW in 2003/04 as a teenager with friends and we were blown away and all of us devoted HOURS and hours and loved it (hello Aussie server raids at 2am!) Last hurrah for me was Burning Crusade... It was an amazing ride and the Dark Portal/Outworld was such a great time... It seems things have changed?
I did exactly the same. Then I did it again up to the end of classic before BC dropped. Loved it. The levelling and exploring and questing was the best bit. Had no interest in raiding. Great Times great memories, and now I'm out.
Raids have always been the main issue of this game . People are in such a hurry to skip the leveling process, be it buying boost in vanilla or the 60$ max level boost. It's honestly more fun to solo fight a gnoll camp in redridge in vanilla than being in any raid and just spam a few buttons.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
EQ was a hardcore game, but even if you just played an hour or so a bad it felt like you did something because the goal of the game was the journey and exploration. WoW's problem is the end is all that matters so if you aren't there and doing all that end-game crud; there isn't much there for you beyond farming pets and mounts.
Same, I started in 2008, but I only reached max level after a year, cuz I would fuck around and talk to people, explore, make alts. There wasn't much of a rush back then, and I'd still see a lot of people in the world. Now I'm just getting rushed to 60 so the "real game" starts
I watch these because I enjoy asmon and watching wow die. I've played 0 hours since BfA and I only leveled to 100 and whatever it was because of asmongold falsely hyping the game. It sucked and was an awful experience. It's much funner to watch wow die from afar. I hope dragon isles is a complete garbage fire so I can continue to have good content to watch.
I watched this for laughs after watching his excellent Diablow Immoral commentary. But I will always see WoW players, even the raiders as casuals. I'm from the EverQuest era. Raiding in WoW was a breeze in comparison. 16 hours per week is hardcore? I considered my raiding 20 hours per week in WoW to be very casual but then I look at the world at large and realize most people simply are not gamers.
Dear Asmongold, thank you for bringing this video to my attention. I was on the fence on whether to get back into wow for Dragonflight, but now after seeing this I remember how punishing wow is for casual players so I will give it a miss. Many thanks!
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
That is why I love FF14 so much. It respects my time. I play, I get gear, the progression is 100% linear, and when I have the gear, I have the best one. Maybe I will slot other material. Maybe. In WoW, I need to spend a lot of time to "rectify" my "mistake" for not writing a PhD Thesis on the benefits of cast canceling Evocation at 4 arcane stacks to squeeze in 1 more AB.
This was a really good video. You nailed it when you said we need other content besides that which feeds people that get their ego only from the game. I would be extremely happy to drop the add-ons and progress at a fun pace. Wrath was fun because they had a world to explore and the raids were available to even casuals eventually.
Theres normal, heroic and mythic dungeons. Lfg, normal, heroic and mythic raids. Like wtf you mean? You want to progress at fun pace, what is stopping you? What other content you want? "Wrath was fun you had world to explore and raids were for casuals" when you have that and fking 5 different difficulty settings for raids and dungeons. Like what do you mean?? You cant raid as a casual? Thats a big fking lie lmao
@@hoh8627 I remember people in wrath complaining about the same stuff. I was in a guild that had two raids going, they were split up between people who were good and people who were not the best. In the later good players were running the raid on their alts. Both raids made it through, but the second had to wait for the first players to take up half the raid spots on their alts.
I think the recent changes regarding the gooey saber only proves to me that they hate casual gamers. For an entire season now, LFR only players and solo players will get absolutely nothing for season 4. But who cares. Fuck blizzard.
@@Narutofan825 I mean, in wrath, wow was more single player friendly than ever before, especially at end game. It did not require a full on raid to get a violet proto drake, for example. There were a couple FOMO mounts, such as black proto drake, which they listed in advance that there were going away, and there were multiple models you could get, and it didn't change at the last minute, to, well, it was FOMO on the black proto drake, but now it isn't. Hell, people are still pissed that you can actually get the plagued proto drake again, even though that was never intended lol. BMAH is incredibly rare, but still. Obtainable in that 1 in like 10 k chance you actually manage to outcap and outbid other players in gold coin for it. Either way, they changed the wording for the green slimy kitten at the last second. I still think that is bullshit, especially since there is pretty much nothing for those players to get in season 4 of shadowlands. I did not have to do any raids to get a black war mammoth or a brown bear in wrath either. Just some automated 5 mans here and there for the stone keeper's shards. A ton of solo reputation grinds to. But nothing for shadowlands season 4. Unless you are normal player and above for shadowlands. But nothing for Solo and LFR only players.
Casual players have wanted quality solo content since the game first released, I raided in both Vanilla and TBC and also wanted that quality solo content on top of that. Blizzard based their game around showing players what they could have, leading them along a storyline and locking it/the end behind play mechanics in which people have to jump through rings of frustration. I have played casual ever since realised that around the Sunwell content patch in TBC. I may play Shadow lands content at some point.
gaming is jumping through rings of frustration, frustration is the feeling you feel when you fail at your goals and because of it the acomplishment feels sweet. Theres nothing wrong with wow being challenging and time consuming, theres everything wrong with lazy assholes demanding trophies for participation because they are weak and destroying the fun for everyone who isnt a mouthbreathing shrimpbrained moron.
I'm a casual player. I just want to explore, enjoy the story, level and collect pets. I don't like dungeons or raiding, they stress me out, mostly because I know I'm bad and don't want to be abused for it...
Who cares if people you don't know abuse you for being a noob that's weak to care what they think I'm just being brutally honest. Why would you even care enough about these people for what they think of you to matter? It's also just a game it's not real life so who cares if you're good or bad I just play video games for fun most people who are ridiculously good at video games got no other talents besides video games. Not to hate on wow player's cuz I wanna try playing this game otherwise I wouldn't be watching this video but the majority of wow player's not all wow player's have no talents outside of video games which is why wow gets a reputation of the geeks game. The less you care about anyone or anything the less you care what people think about you.
How about have fun abusing them back in a taunting calm cool not angry type of way so you're messing with them back but you don't give them the emotional reaction they wanna get from you. Just act like you're not angry and are just being a dick. Also try doing thing's to mess other player's up and get them killed. When I played cod mw2 I named myself friendlyfire and ran around killing my teammates all day long. People were fucking pissed😆.
I was a new player at the end of the BfA. Leveling up was total chaos (back then at least), thrown from one zone to another, lore completely scattered and made no sense to me. After leveling up I wouldn't have known what to do in endgame and how to join dungeon/raid groups if my brother hadn't told me, because the game didn't. I made a resto druid because I liked the idea. Took me a while to realise that the main reason why I sucked so bad in dungeons and why everything felt so clunky and awkward was that there is this thing that I didn't have - mouseover macros/addon (which is basically mandatory for a healer) and some other addons. And then if I wanted to be decent for even pretty basic group content I had to watch and read a bunch of guides as well. At that point my progress was determined almost entirely by how much outsourcing of information I could do. Still largely the case. The whole process is so confusing and half of the game isn't even in the game. Not entirely sure how or why I got through all that :D There were times when I just pushed through because my brother said it gets better. Lol, that's what you say to people struggling with depression or something :D
@@asasdsaasda I don't quite understand what you mean with the first part of your comment. Regarding the second though, weakaura is in itself like a whole subset of addons, you need to look into which one/ones you need. And it's pretty much impossible to play without DBM, unless you're content with running like a headless chichen in lfr 😄 The encounter difficulty is set up with dbm or a similar addon in mind. And mouseover, at least for a healer, is a must as well. I would say that's what's essential even for a casual player if they want to do anything more than plain questing. The whole point of the game is trying to progress though, even if not very competitively, and to do that there's a whole lot more you might need, depending on how quickly you want to be progressing and how pleasant you want the game to be (e.g. making annoying parts of the game more clear and managable). Consider also that if you fail you'll get blamed and insulted by other players so having the addons that most players have is kind of a must for your enjoyment of the game and sanity 😄
It's interesting how things have changed because Blizzard used to do the exact opposite when they were a meteoric company. They would target the middle of the market and let everyone else figure it out.
Need to get back to this. Should go back to 2 raid difficulties and remove all the barriers so people can just play the game. It’s funny that all the systems they put in to keep people playing are the same systems that have drove record levels of exodus from the game. Blizz has some serious soul searching to do and they are running out of chances with other games pulling close or ahead of them at this point. Either way whatever happens I enjoyed my time and nothing lasts forever.
8:36 That is a fair point, but Blizzard also makes it impossible to experience early content that gives context to the later content. Classic servers help with that, but trying to get through the content of a Classic server (including raids) can take you just as much (or more) time to complete than doing the new content. A lot of new players don't want to do that and may be left confused. As a long time standing player that started very late (been playing only since Warlords of Draenor), it took me so long to even figure out how to experience the content from the beginning, what I needed to do to experience it, find a group that was willing to take me in, and I have only recently started on the raiding for TBC. I have all but given up on experiencing the game for the content, and for a guy that plays games for the content that means I have given up on WoW.
@@GDC2127 It makes me really sad to agree here. I have still found enjoyment in aspects of the game but not enough to devote my time to it like I once did.
Just nailed it. My friends and I are casual players, and every single one of them stopped playing wow, cos of mentioned reasons. Too complex, compared lets say to WOLTK, some got punished choosing wrong covenant, some got fed up from setting up addons and messy UI. ect.
"Punished for the wrong decision" is exactly why I quit. I came back during BFA after quitting during Cata, decided I wanted to pick back up on Death Knight. Played my DK for two weeks, grinding dailies, grinding the currency to get into horrific visions. Grinded levels for my HoA and cloak. After two weeks I realized I hated Death Knights rotation, and the fact 60% of my DPS was from auto-attacks. Decided I wanted to try Paladin, used my boost for it. Enjoyed the rotation more, then went to pick up my cloak and HoA and realized nothing I did on DK carried over for Paladin. Instantly logged out, uninstalled the game and I haven't come back.
i didnt realize how good the job system is in final fantasy 14 until i made a rogue in wow and wanted to heal after a certain point only to realize i had to make a brand new character lol.
This is the biggest true. The whole "Casuals ruined the game" was always the dumbest take since everything that was designed for casual players was streamlined so raiders didn't have to do it, leveling alts? pre-raid progression? tier progression? all removed for the hardcore audience And how can people complain about there not being any content if LFR exists kekw Turns out raid logging is boring for millions of players, and over the past 10 years blizzard has been bleeding players and all the chores are just a vain attempt to keep people subbed, but let me tell you, if you're a casual player, you don't play 2 hours a day every day, if you are really this mystical 9-5 dad with 20 kids and 7 wives, realistically you don't have any time to play video games, and even if you were this mythical turbo dad working 9-5 while taking care of 20 kids and 7 wives and still had time to play video games, its more likely than not that your gaming time is going to be on your weekends and not spread out 2 hours a day of doing chores, as a casual player you can usually get more stuff done if you had a non-timegated progression system that lets you work towards your goals 6-10 hours on your weekend rather than doing torghast and dailies every day/week on reset.
I was going to reply with exactly this. I am much more of a casual gamer than I used to be, though still more hardcore than most genuine casual players. Still, most of my gaming happens on the weekends, and I am single and don't have any kids, so I have less going on than most people. I have no desire to play WoW if I have to log on for a few hours every day to do chores, I want to get on during the weekend when I have nothing but free time and slam a game for 6-8 hour chunks.
LFG/LFR systems, welfare epics, catch up rep mechanics, skippable zones later on in every xpac, removal of rating gated items from pvp, removal of rank 1 titles, literally every raid gets nerfed 30days after its launch FOR casual players. Wtf are you guys ON about? All im seeing is a bunch of addicted shit players who have never played another mmo, if you think this game is catered to HARDCORE players, you obviously never played Wildstar or Aion or any of the other now DEAD HARDCORE ORIENTATED GAMES. If this game was HARDCORE it would have died YEARS ago, TBC was introduced as a more CASUAL FRIENDLY VERSION OF THE GAME COMPARED TO VANILLA.
@@mis8866 You do realize that dungeon finder and welfare modes for raids were made so the developers could spend more time developing raid content and less on progression content? Also progression was ripped out of the game in general so top end raiders didn't have to gear up newbros, ruining the experience for everyone else by creating FOMO seasonal nonsense. WOW was in its prime before welfare systems ever took place, WOTLK was too easy and the subs flatlined, 3.2 onward was the beginning of raidlogging welfare mode for the game, and note how cataclysm onward there was a downward trend in subs, and even when everyone came back due to WOD hype, they all quit in mere weeks after WOD's launch because all the development went into the raids and there was 0 world content and pre-raid progression. Game is on maintainence mode, the lead developer only cares about raids, everything else is a disjointed mess of non-gameplay and class design is balanced around paper DPS so it just feels bad to play until you get into scenarios where your DPS matters, and even then not everyone enjoys playing weakaura DDR
Addons that were proper were things like TRP3 that helped the role-playing community and something similar to Total-RP should have been implemented 15 years ago.. Players should be able to write in a journal attached to your character sheet that others could open/read and it could be anything written down in it. Role-Players would use it for character descriptions, some players might be trying to sell something not on the AH.. etc.
I feel like on your first character you should play the full levelling experience. But when you add your second or whatever character you get an option in creation. Something along the lines of “you have already experienced the main story, would you like to boost your character to level 60” or some shit. Where you’ll be 60 and have some basic lvl 60 gear so you don’t have to play the ENTIRE thing again or pay real world money to try out something new
There’s so much questing required even at max level. They should just rapidly level you through current xpac story. Or at most require a single other xpac of story. Honestly 1-60 isn’t that bad. It’s the fact that there’s so much bland BS at 60 that you have to engage with before you’re even playing end content with your friends in a fun enjoyable way. It’s particularly problematic when you’re coming back to the game during the final tier of an expansion after not playing for the whole expansion. By that time the systems are so complex and fleshed out and there’s so much Grindy mediocre nonsense that it stops being fun.
I hate level skips in mmos, period. If you're leveling a different class, you have to learn that class too. If the leveling experience is good, it shouldn't be an issue, but most modern mmos cater to lazy people who want to get to endgame as fast as possible. Leveling characters and jobs was part of the EQ and FFXI experience, the leveling experience was so fun when done right that as soon as you got one to max, you'd want to start on the other. In original EQ and FFXI, the group leveling experience started pretty much at level ten, and yeah, you could solo to max, but it wouldn't be easy or quick. I have so many great memories of those low level parties, as much if not more than the times I had running endgame content. Yeah, sometimes finding a group sucked, and sometimes the groups you got sucked, but then there were those times when you found that special group of players and you'd get ten, fifteen, or even twenty levels in a single party, in a game with a hardcore grind. You don't get that with these modern mmos, because you're mainly soloing to lvl cap and that is understandably boring after doing it a couple of times through the same quests and storyline. All the social aspects are now relegated to the endgame, which necessarily becomes the only part of the game that matters. I don't know if you can cater to both, but give me a good leveling experience over level skips any day, the endgame is not supposed to be the whole game, it wasn't that way back in the day, and I can't tell that making it so has improved the genre any at all. Oh yeah, so convenient to not play the game I purchased to play, and what is this you say, there are all these unverified noobs ruining your dungeon and raid experience because they're max level and can't play their jobs? Those kinds of people didn't get to max level so easily in the old west of MMO, they either got gud or got gone. Maybe it shouldn't be that harsh, but group leveling should still be huge part of these games even as they try to make it easier for people who don't have eternity to lfg.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
I laugh at Asmon vids quite often. But this one takes the cake. Brilliantly funny! This video summarizes why his community loves him, and why that community is beyond the borders of any particular game. Thank you Zack for the entertainment being yourself.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
I've been feeling this for a long time. I started playing WoW when BC came out, and enjoyed all aspects of the game. But I was never very happy with raiding since it seemed to be just like running Dungeons, but with 10 times the hassle and downside. So as a result, now, 10+ years later, there's nothing for me to do if I still don't like raiding. I supposed I could spend my time collecting pets or mounts, or making gear to sell, but that's like sitting and doing needlepoint, or scrapbooking.
@@classicandy5317 i am in same boat as L A and i just always use to do pvp.... but 10 + yrs on bgs and the same arena gets stale... wish they added new maps like warsong gulch again
@@joshturner9766 i agree with you on the fact that they should add more pvp maps ,mean its crazy to think they have done nothing with pvp in 10 years .
In BC you had Arena and Raids and they were pretty equal. I loved it but it went downhill fast and I quit. Never been a fan of raiding because dealing with that many people is frustrating as fuck and maybe raids are fun and "challenging" the first time but then it's just repetetive work until you get the thing you want.
I played WoW actually for Roleplaying. But because of raiding, everything was hot on the horde, and alliance side died out there, everything Roleplay switched to one particular server, while Blizz went to merge 8 servers together where i played, trying to fix the alliance popuplation. But then creating problems in the Roleplaycommunity by forcing established concepts together on a server they didn´t want to be in the first place - also leading to ppl either to switch to horde or leave for the greater RP server, now having 8 Servers merged where´s almost no Alliance left. Funny this isn´t Blizz´s Audience at all although Roleplayers spent a decent amount of time in the game, actually not caring about most of the content anyway. Never thought I would ever quit that game after more than 10 years roleplaying there
I agree. I am a very new and casual player because I work full time (and usually long hours), I am married and my husband doesn’t play these games. I get maybe 3 hours a week that I can play. My sister (a hardcore player) is the one that started me on this game and carried me along. But without her, I just could barely play on my own. It is so difficult to figure out how to follow the story; I mean how do you find the quests that take you through the story? It’s not obvious; my sister had to point them out to me but getting through each quest to the next one in the storyline seemed to break often. Then I found the raids and dungeons very difficult for me. It may be because I am new to this type of game; I’ve never played one of these before or I just don’t belong here. I chose to start with WoW because everyone knows it and it looked amazing. The storyline was really important to me but I couldn’t follow it at all; it was confusing. Once I got past the first 15 or 20 levels I found that even the quests were so difficult to do solo. My sister then found FFXIV and we switched and it was a wonderful change for me and seems much more inviting to the casual player. I am still very sad about WoW not working for me but at least I found something that I thoroughly enjoy. Still sad about WoW……
Indeed, it's hard to follow the story as casual. If you want to finish an old expansion story, you need to finish old raids, but they don't have any easy mode (but for some reason, the ones from the last expansion have looking for group/lfg/easy mode)
you're trying to play the most notoriously time-consuming game genre with only three hours a week. Sounds like you should ask your sister about other games you could try that arent made to be time sinks
An easy solution would be to integrate easy raids. An example would be like Ulduar 2.0. Something that is so old that anyone can do it, but make it 10-60 content. In other words scale it up. That would give the casual players, raids to experience, and would also be like an entryway into what raiding takes. Before anyone says "wE HaB LfR" thats not at all what I mean. Im talking a 25 man dungeon. That requires people to be involved or you fail. Unlike dungeons which are usually a pyscho tank steamrolling and pulling the entire dungeon. The players then dont get to experience the actual content because they grouped them in LFG and the guy is from another server and doesnt care.
I started as a casual gamer and paid for retail and created a deathknight as was so excited to start running dungeons, however everyone just kept kicking me out mid run and would try to ask what happened and got no replies and eventually just quit and started classic instead.
I agree with Asmon here, i think in order to access a boost (granted could be cheaper) at least 1 charcter per/realm needs 1 character to max level sort of how they used to level cap race unlocks ie. (Old format Level 50/70 for a DK/DH unlock)
hearing about how long it takes to get ready to raid in WoW is stunning to me. I play Destiny 2 on occasion, and we recently got 6 new friends to play. so we decided we'd drop all of them in a raid, 6 player activity in D2, and watch them fail with the occasional tips from our side. They were ready to attend this raid within a weekend of playing. One of them we used to fill for a sixth mate in the newest raid when their PC quit on them, with very few problems. But this is insane
This video highlights every reason why I no longer have fun in this game and why I never will again. Retail WoW is so god damn boring today, I hate having to do so many grinds, so many requirements and farms just to get raid ready, I miss doing dungeons for pre raid bis, going into raids and getting my bis gear while on the side discovering new places and having fun with friends, etc.
As a casual player, having played the game now for 15 years on the same toon and on the same server, I can say that everything in this video is completely accurate. I enjoy playing the game purely for relaxation. The other game that I like to play is chess and it's just a completely different environment. For me I started playing when my son was young as a way of having fun ways to bond and to play a game together and ended up really enjoying the game essentially. On the other hand I never make it past LFR Because I don't want to be in a Hardcore group and I also work 60 hours a week at my job, so when I play I want to relax and not be stressed out and I therefore do not do high-level raiding or mythic plus dungeons as I just don't have the time to devote and I also don't want to be in a group of people who are so angry and anxious, or really repetitive stuff. I play for a few months after an expansion just for the new things and to keep my mind occupied but the truth is that there is not a lot of content for people like myself, which is silly because there's a lot of ways they could change that. I go back to game playing when Zork was an interactive literature based storyline game. Interactive storytelling and gameplay is a lot more than just grinding out Rep and acquiring gear. You can create storyline in content and problem-solving that isn't about grinding and can be either communal or solo played. I had really hoped that torghast was going to be something like that but they didn't really seem to understand how to make that work. Thanks for posting
cliche' as it sounds, i believe final fantasy 14 may be a good game to try. they've recently done strides in making it casual and solo friendly, including making solo dungeons with AI party members. plus, the storyline sounds like what you're looking for, though it's hardly "interactive."
For a game you'll be playing around your work schedule, I highly recommend Guild Wars 2. That game respects your time. It is, in my opinion, the best co-op mmo. It's free to try, so I hope you'll give it a chance.
@@obviouslykaleb7998 Thanks, I'm not sure I'm really ready to start an entirely new game, although I am pretty ready to quit wow, lol, but thanks I'll take a look at it. It just feels a little daunting to try and start something from scratch. I can play my tune on this character without even thinking about it because I've been playing it so long
@@Hooga89 Ehhm no. Not having watched the video the entire story of shadow lands was perfectly serviceable for casual consumption, all of the transmog and wardrobe system that rewards you for questing for fun and razing through old content. All of the changes to the leveling system encourages people to enjoy the open world and questing more than ever, hopefully even more in dragon flight. The game has so much content that "casuals" can also do, if you just want to pet battle or fish or collect transmogs you can do it, but if you reach endgame and expect to get the same gear as people who run mythic +15, that you arent even going to use for anything, then you are in the wrong game. I think its reasonable that raids arent for the casual audience, i always felt that way, but even that isnt true with LFR and normal raid difficulty anymore, and judging the game solely on stuff such as raids which most casual players might not even care about is like saying "if we judge this game with all this stuff purely on this one criteria aimed at hardcore players, then its only a game for hardcore players"
@@Hooga89 so you say casuals have nothing to do, but when multiple examples are given, you say no not that it’s the gear. Casual players have gear progression if not they would all still be in 140 gear.
See FF14. The casual players are just hanging out in their in-game houses, doing fashion, hanging out in the town squares listening to bard concerts and just chilling. The hardcore ones are doing raids, pushing content, melding, etc. People in ESO are basically doing the same thing. In WoW, the true hardcore already beat the raid and stopped raiding and the casuals are playing Elden Ring.
@@zoulsgaming9455 all the completionist casual content is locked behind weeklies and dailies and reputation, farming the same instances every day/week on 20 characters just to have a 0.2 chance for a mount or transmog and doing reputation farms which also a lot of them are basically dailies is tedious and unfun. To see good completionist content see guild wars 2 for example, that barely has any dailies and it's just do whatever you want whenever you want.
@@hatemeister GW2 has a ton of dailies and i actually used to like them back when they were general but having recently logged in they are all too specific, i remember "kill x mobs" or "kill an elite" now its like "do x thing in this one specific zone" which irks me enough to not bother doing it its also dishonest to call people who grind for some super low level mount casual, its once again just moving the goal post of "hey there are things that takes time to get in the game" which yes, good, great job. But a friend and i had some good fun getting raid achievements in old raids where some of them i might need to do twice but most of it could be done with a bit of prep, alongside just running whatever i wanted to get cosmetics instead of inanely farming a single mount and then call that casual. Its almost like you refuse to admit that there is an entire game with 15 years of content to play through that isnt centered on the newest endgame, most of which are disconnected zones you can enjoy the story in due to the recent changes. Which is one of the big strengths of wow.
WoW knows it's not a growing game, so instead of focusing on appealing to new or casual players, it focusses exclusively on keeping the current players logging in; that's all anyone needs to know about any design decision they make, these days.
Exactly. Like FromSoft focuses on hard games, their games are known to not be easy and that's their niche. Asmon even praises the games for being hard and tells people to l2p, yet WoW being hard is a problem? If you talk to a lot of former WoW players who quit after WotLK, they'll say the casualization of WoW was exactly what drove them away. You look at private server scenes, they complain that the biggest issue with classic was that the raids were too easy, because private servers buffed the content.
@@RG32822 WoW offering hard content is not a problem, the problem is that the time investment required to tackle it is too high for the average player, and the content that average player could do in the past is now out of their reach. Elden Ring is also a completely different game so I don't see why you're even bringing it up.
@@EndOfExistence1337 current wow isn't hard. It's fucking diablo level hard. It's get good rng to get your mythic 15 chest gear. Oh did you get your tier set this week? Too bad you won't be able to do the mythic raiding because it's no longer about your skill, but how much gear you have. It's a fucking joke. There should be one difficulty. Neigh impossible and the crazy legendary and tier sets are a reward to make the farm easier. Not the fucking requirement to down the boss.
Honestly, the old world was awesome. It was a huge place with many different regions which all had their own special story and dungeons and which all felt alive. You had many different ways to level to 60. Yes, some areas were kinda mandatory. But for the most part you were not limited to a single road. Now look at current content. I'm gonna be honest, I haven't played anything past Cata. But I'm pretty sure the amount of variety and different paths you can take has been getting less and less. So for every character you have to go and do the exact same stuff, right? It's no big surprise people can't stand it. Vanilla got really tedious after the fourth or fifth alt. I bet in the newer expansions the second time is hardly bearable and everything after is just a horrible drag.
The attack on replayable leveling started in TBC when everyone was being funneled through the same linear questing experience past the first zone. The only expansions that bucked that trend were Cataclysm, BFA, and Shadowlands. ...I don't think we're going to see divided campaigns again any time soon.
As someone who grew up with Everquest, DAoC, and Ultima Online, when WoW came out, everyone in my group of friends was like "Lol WoW? That's the baby, casual MMO". Because back then, it was. It was the most accessible, least time consuming, and most "fair" in terms of how it handled world content and such. You could get so much done so much faster than in Everquest. It took MONTHS for everyone to finally warm up to it, and most of us only did *because* it was so much less time consuming and punishing than the others. WoW started as an MMO for the casual crowd, so it's so weird to see where its gone, over the years.
They absolutely implement overhauls such as AOE Cap and reaction to add-ons with MDI and RWF in mind. MDI especially is there crowning achievement when they added the caveat where you can't duplicate classes and you must have five unique classes. Otherwise they know each party would be identical and be the best tank, best healer, and three exact copies of the same identical dps.
I just imagined, LFR as a solo experience, where you get to choose fill a 'role' in a fight mechanic, and the whole thing is a tutorial for normal. Ex: As a melee dps, you can choose to 'soak' puddles near boss, or go kill/CC an add, then you get told to avoid stuff in tutorial form. (Oh no, your raid member is being targeted by a meteor type skill, go help soak! and you watch as a bunch of bots go near him too and you get to experience how to play). No loot, just an achievement at the end and any associated cinematics. Having this tutorial teach you about stuff to avoid, stuff to soak with others, or soak on your own would be great for the game. TL;DR: Castle Pineapplia in the game.
Until you came to no loot I agreed with you, another problem is Blizzard would never use the resources needed to make it work but otherwise a Cool idea
Add a practice mode to the game. A side game where you collect adventurers who you take into scenario versions of raid bosses that are designed with prompts, arrows and icons on the ground that guide you and teach you how to do the mechanics of the encounter. The practice mode could award new adventurers, cosmetic rewards for your adventurers and things like pets, weapon illusions (like fire effects etc) and mounts for doing really well. Maybe even add the transmog appearance of the raid finder gear for getting all of the achievements.
I love this game. I've been playing it on and off for years but have never hit end game content. I got close with Shadowlands but working full time and being a parent makes it hard to be part of a guild and join raids. Plus, doing old expansions is basically impossible now.
being in a similair situation as you, but thinking about getting into it, what makes the old expansions impossible? I'd prolly try to go from in ordre as best i can
Sure it's possible. I soloed every old expansion on retail. So what? so fucking what if now you dont have time to play the game you clearly dont even like? also: WoW is pro casual as fuck. - There are tons of guides for everything - Almost Entire community already knows what to do so you can go ask anyone for help - There is LFR to beat the entire game in one run
I came back to wow after several years off. And the amount of grind that is necessary to catch up is kind of ridiculous this season. So much borrowed power catching up that it feels like a mini game inside the actual game. I have been doing mythic content for the first time in my career with with WoW and without disclosing it’s my first time doing it and have not really had any issues with mechanics. I just move out of the glowing area so I don’t die and boom. EzPz. (I have been back two weeks and average 2-3 hours a day playing so it’s trial and error baby)
I fully agree with having to level, I remember coming back to Neverwinter after they did the big class rework for all classes and I felt like I had an aneurism having to figure out all the abilities and the stat changes to have a fun set up again
Leveling alts in WoW is one of the main things that has kept me playing the game for the past several years. I do think that everything else should be account-wide such as reputations for example. I enjoy the leveling process now more than ever since it takes very little time. It's easy to level to the current expansion in less than 24 hours.
Ah yes, the backwards thinking of a typical WoW player. You really need to take a moment to listen to yourself. You enjoy something more than ever because it now takes less time to do it 😂😂
@@matthewparker7909 "Typical WoW player?" That's funny. Compared to other MMOs I barely play WoW these days. I've been playing since 2004 and have experienced everything the game has to offer. Leveling alts has always been one of my favorite thing to do in the game since the old days. While I enjoyed the process when it took longer, given how many characters I end up leveling up during the course of an expansion, I like that I can do it more quickly. I liked reputation grinds in MoP more than ever because it took less time to do it once you were able to purchase the account-wide increase to reputation gained. Is that "backwards" thinking as well?
Remember when the guy working on DBM almost had to shut it down so Blizz sent him a PC? That's because if he quits then they have no idea how to design combat without people using DBM in mind.
Do you remember the Darkmoon Faire event or the Midsummer Fire Festival event during TBC and WOTLK? I loved those! I didn't do a single dungeon or raid during these events because it was so much fun to play with those toys, solve the riddles and get the toys.
This is why I love Guild Wars 2. And that's also why it's the go-to game for casual players, mostly horizontal progression with "optional" vertical progression with expansions/living story content. Take a break of 5 years, you can come back and play the new thing if you want. And if you're more of an hardcore player, adjust your build/gear in 2 hours to match balance patches and you're good to join strikes/raids again, since no older content is ever obsolete. Last week they released a challenge mode for the latest strike that took 5 ~17h days of high-end guilds tries for the world first, but you don't have to do it if you don't want to, you won't miss out since you can do the NM with just any pug and that's great.
7:10 Borderlands 2 has a similar system where once you beat the game on normal difficulty you can start a new character at level 30. The difference is that there's no challenge to starting the new character, you can just do it, but that sounds like a good middle ground.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
Just found your channel. I've never played WoW but love your recent videos. WoW has always interested me, but as time goes by it seems harder and harder to justify jumping into. So many other great games, with just as deep mechanics and lore, with less pointless grinding and running around involved... it's hard to want to jump into a new game, especially when said game seems to (from the outside) not really want me to play it. Love your commentary, God bless.
I would like to expand on your comment a bit and say that an MMORPG is really only able to provide one thing that other games can't: Social variety content. No matter what specific content you're doing in your MMORPG, I guarantee you that you can get a better experience from a specialized game doing the same thing. Like exploration? Play any Ubisoft game. Like exploring with friends? Play co-op. Like raiding? Play Monster Hunter. Need to do it with friends? Monster Hunter Online. I could keep going... What an MMORPG can do that those competitors can't is provide an all-of-the-above approach and keep their content fresh through variety. Give you and your friends a different experience each time you log in. All WoW really offers its players is 3 things: Raiding, PvP, and Mythic+. Everything else is half-baked and abandoned, with no more than 2 years of development put into it. This isn't true for any other of the big 5, as far as I know. They all do those three things and more.
When I was playing WoW for the first time leveling a mage, I got kicked out of an LFD group for not polymorphing an ad. I then got messaged by 2 of the 4 other people on the group calling me a garbage shitter and to go play Fortnite. Really welcoming community.
I'm from Brazil, and despite the actual WoW situation and high price of subscription due to devaluation of our currency, I feel that many people still play for for, in a level mid core would say, they play with friends, old friends that still in WoW and have fun trying to do Mythic Dungeons.
I found this in Star Trek Online. I put about 100 hours in back when it was paid sub in 2009 or 2010. Loved it because of the grind. Went back in 2018, got or 19 and they made is super easy to get to end game and I spend 80 hours realizing I sucked and trying to understand why. Then gave up. But the story line and missions that they didn't cut were good.
WoW is just unplayable since BFA. Truely seems like Blizzard is trying their best to make the experience as bad as possible either for M+ tryhard players or casuals. There's absolutly nothing enjoyable in this game atm and the lore is a joke.
what's crazy is a causal player one that only plays 6 hours a week ? 12 ? 20? Maybe I'm wrong , but it feels like the body follows the head . Ion's an Elite Jerk from a guild called Elite Jerks and he only raids . so the game is focused around ION , that's how it seems to me . I could be wrong, but watching ION's interviews , that's what it seems like
I have though this too. Ion has ruined the game so he and his elitist buddies can keep bragging about how good they are at the game. Heres for all the elitist: Nobody cares about youre mythic curve achievement.
dragonflight is the first expansion i've gone beyond heroic dungeons. I just got to 1900 m+ rating and I've just tried to learn from mistakes (I save clips of me dying, or team mates dying etc to catch the things i didnt see) and asking questions. I sort of hate the addon meta, but I love to create my own weakauras, it's very fun. Hitboxes in this game is fair almost always, but game clarity has a lot to improve on. There is a mix of intuitive and unintuitive mechanics. I'm glad they have made talents as interchangeable as they are, I remember back in the days where I would literally go to lvl 30 without ever spending talent points because I was afraid to pick wrong. gearing feels fair, i like how you can upgrade m+ pieces. im iffy about the cap without the ability to break old pieces down to get the valor back, i think I have wasted a lot of ilvl potential because I didn't know better. I'd assume the valor cap is made to slow down progress, allowing people to catch up, but im afraid to use it now without watching guides because of this. there is room for improvement.
How I would love to have bots in dungeon. I could go at my pace, not bothering anyone while learning the mechanics and still have a challenge. Then you join the heroic and you know what to do and you won't annoy people by not knowing the mechanic (or messing it up, since even if you look it up, it's your first time).
Man, I LOVE leveling characters. I do it over and over. I'm doing it right now, while watching this video. It's legit one of my fav things in the game.
I no longer play, but this is why I wish LFR was just a bit more challenging. I don't care so much about gear, I just want to enjoy a satisfying conclusion to the stories in the quest lines I enjoyed while levelling.
WRT the “game not respecting your time causes people to quit” point; I gave up on Final Fantasy 11 for JUST that reason. Eventually came to WOW, played wrath till the end of cata. FFXI did NOT respect your time in the slightest; some classes being gatekept from any content, 10% exp loss on death, deaths from glitches and connection issues, abysmal drop rates on required items, crappy fast-travel, group forming taking hours… Eventually enough becomes enough and you quit for a competitor.
Pay to win and pay to skip are very different. And the mage tower challenge is far from a bad idea. It could level you slowly, just way faster then the rest of the content, and just become increasingly difficult. More challenging mechanics with every couple of levels. That way when your character does level to endgame you know him very well.
as an ex-casual wow player, I kinda disagree. I appreciated the adventure guide a lot. it told me what loot was dropped from specific dungeon and raid bosses but it also told me their abilities so I kinda could know the mechanics without ever having to alt-tab out. I appreciated generic world content a lot, which gave me good loot without too much time invested. not "world quests" in and of itself but the cycling "eldritch/corrupted invaded zones" were cool and rewarding. I appreciated LFR a lot as, even though it was hard in its own way it did allow me to see the end of the narrative. I appreciated the legendary cloak content a lot. I could go through it single player mode at my own pace. it was very challenging but also very rewarding. it would've been nice if I wasn't forced to log in daily or w/e for it and could just save up and do a lot of attempts once a week but still. details. I fucking LOVED how much easier it became to level alts and experience old content I never really got around to like legion artifact weapon quests and the associated class hubs. maybe things got a lot worse for casuals in shadowlands. dunno. what I heard it sounded okay. probably would've enjoyed torghast a lot for one. I just don't wanna support blizz anymore so I didn't buy it. I switched to FF14 which is also quite casual friendly. in its own way.
My husband got me playing during Covid as a stress relief. During that time when hours at work were iffy and we did some work from home I was able to have fun leveling up and learning my class but once I actually did that and got into shadowlands and got thru the intro or each world it just became this daily or weekly random little quests that turned me away. Honestly once work became normal again too I don’t have time to put into the game to really get anything exciting so the pull for me to return isn’t great. My husband and I have had multiple conversations about this. He’s a long time wow player (like since the OG release I believe) and I’m definitely casual. I think wow needs to do something for casual players and also for the longtime players that aren’t 16-18 years old and don’t play for a career. Most adults don’t have time to drop hrs and hrs into grinding anymore. A lot of wow’s main players grew up and have families and careers they have to give time to and the game has never rly made adjustments to facilitate that in my opinion.
So glad I am enjoying FFXIV now. Even with the announcement coming I don't care. I gave up hope for WoW. I wish it well but just tired of wishing it was better.
I have played Monster Hunter Rise for well over 300 hours and I still suck at it but I’m constantly watching all kinds of MH videos. From build guides,to lore videos and even challenge videos. I still love this wonderful game even though I struggle killing the weakest monsters.😂😂
Part of why I have stopped playing WoW (at least for now) is the constant chase for the ever shifting meta I was expected to keep up with. Not only did it drive me generally bonkers to have to change my gear, power bonus choices, rotations, etc. every other week; the constant push being put on me to eek out that last little 0.01% more DPS/HPS started wearing on my emotional health. Also, I SUPER hate that in WoW it can easily happen that higher level gear can end up being significantly worse. This is a reason I came to loathe gear sets. I remember at the end of Legion there were specs that did significantly better wearing their ilvl 880 gear set than then ilvl 930 set.
They're never going to make it casual friendly because they want to prolong character progression so people have a motive to stay subscribed. It's not about the player, it's not about the game, it has and always will be about money.
End game progression is Mythic 5 mans and Raiding. Only a small number of players are skilled enough for this or enjoy it. It's also not fun to level a class then be told your class is not the META and screwed if you really want to do well.
@@TheTriforce100 The difference I see between Classic/BC, ect and recent expansions is the game is a lot more mobile now favoring classes that have quick casts and high mobility.
@@TheTriforce100 For Healers to be mobile to survive while keeping people up minimum casting time or other tools allowing mobility such as bubbles or HOTS had a clear advantage. Last time I played, Druids with their HOT's were clearly the META. If a DPS has to move to stay alive DPS goes down but people don't die.
@@TheTriforce100 Bottom line end game Wow is 5 man and raiding. Wow is harder now due a higher skill bar with the need need to move out of the bad shit while performing their role. Most people don't enjoy that which is why so many people quit soon after experiencing a new expansion. There a a lot of other reasons why Wow is only retaining the most hardcore players but this is one of them.
@@TheTriforce100 Thanks you have made your point that you think the game has no issues abundant. The player numbers would question that. Lets agree to disagree.
@@TheTriforce100 You continue to insult me, once more kid and I will report you. Enjoy your dog shit MMO with increasingly declining numbers for many more reasons than you are capable of understanding.
I love WoW- been playing for more than half my life. But at any given time I have like so many things I wanna do. 6 games, 8 shows, 15 movies on my backlog, 3 books I've been meaning to read... paying 20 dollars a month to be stuck to playing WoW more than I want to or I'll be wasting my money/time/effort? Feels so dang BAD. When the first raid tier came out and I had to decide whether I wanted to spend my gold on a legendary item or another month, I decided to let my sub lapse instead. I'll always love WoW, but the quality of the content atm does not offset a dead guild and a dead server and a monthly pricetag.
Asmon describing what you have to do to raid was me trying to get back into the game at the end of WoD. I spent hours just trying to find a group and they fell apart at the first mistake.
my wife started playing recently and she loved the story and leveling, in fact she loved it more than playing lvl 60 content so she did all the quests of the game and played all the expansions with her character to see the full game but then... she thought about playing another class and thats when she hated the game saying "do i have to do everything again? really?"
What’s the solution to this though ?
@@LennyDykstra1 more account shared content. u should only have to do the quests once, shared reputation,etc..
@@mikko3 she played all the expansions and did all the quests, but she got tired of playing the same character so she wanted to try another one. thats when she realized she lost everything that she had done till now.
@@dafire9634 i know, and this is the kind of stuff that i would love to see in wow
How did your wife figure out how to follow the storyline from the very beginning, through all the expansions? I was never able to figure it out. I would start (with my sister pointing out where the quest was), and follow along to a certain point, and then it would disappear and I couldn’t figure out where to go for the next storyline quest. Also was she playing solo? I found it nearly impossible to do the quests solo after a certain point. It was frustrating. I would take any advice on that.
Got RUclips on Auto-play, Asmon comes up, and randomly hear my voice... dude, surreal.
I Don't know what to say other than thank you! I'm beyond happy so many people liked the video!
Your video was awesome!
@@valerierodger7700 The sad part is, it's been built around survivalship bias since 2008. Most of the people who talk about the game are hardcore players themselves, this video being a rare exception.
If you ever hear anyone tell you that this game is casual-friendly, run.
great video man
The biggest reason I quit WoW after over 15 years was that it felt like the game was literally trying to drive me away since I was in the midcore range. I'm cool with doing some busy work stuff to accomplish my goals to promptly clear heroic, do some mythic, and push higher keys but the amount it forced me to play to stay relevant just kept ramping up to the point I had to come home after work and grind AP for at least 1-2 hours in BFA. By the time Shadowlands hit full swing I was so burnt out, the lawsuit stuff was so demoralizing to myself and my guild all had enough, and I didn't have the motivation to find a new one since I was already so drained.
If things look like they'll be different for Dragonlands or whatever its called I'll come check it out but if worst comes to worse I'll just keep playing other stuff.
battle of azeroth lands sucked. shadowlands sucked. unless blizzard learned and cares dragonlands will suck too.
i never had to grind ap and i mythic raided in bfa. by the 8th week i literally logged in for 30 mins a day then twice a week for raiding. Logging in for raiding became the real chore, and i quit the game before the 2nd raid came out lol. Haven't played since, but i did play a bit of tbc classic.
Final Fantasy sounds for you
Stuff hasn't gotten better since pre-WoD, stop coming back lol
@@hidanakatsuki2420 i remember quitting current wow for 5 months, when i came back zereth mortis was out, i just did some questing from korthia to unlock flying and then get on the zereth campaing, bought tons of gear from the vendor and i was gucci to go do stuff, getting shit little by little all in the spam of a week. My toon on tbc on the other hand (i was a tank) got TRASHED, literally nobody wants me, even tho i worked hard to get the badges to buy all the badge gear to be relevant, NO ONE wants me to tank a raid cuz "you're not decked in t6 gear no way you can tank gruul or mag, let alone a TK boss". Im fully decked in epics, got all the stats needed, yet people want me to have stuff that i literally cannot have because the content it is in i cant play it cuz they wont let me. People told me to go for an offspec but now i need to grind the pre-bis of that offspec and prolly get into GDKPS but i dont have enough gold either to get into those because they ask for 10k gold +.
Old wow has its flaws only because of current people being over perfectionists, havent found a casual guild that let me attempt a shot at any of the ssc-tk-bt raids even tho im geared for them at least on faerlina horde
Current wow instead let me catch up and still gave me the option to do the stuff i missed on if i so desired, and didnt made mandatory a lot of stuff (even tho before the latest patch they pretty much were mandatory) but thats just to keep you playing. The thing they said about the last patch of the xpac always being the best to play on is true since you catch up on everything pretty much
I used to be a hardcore player, but after I got my degree, an appartment and got a job, I just did not have the time anymore. I was too tired to get involved in raids, dungeons, etc. The game did not really push what I did like (weird achievements, exploring, etc.). I realised that I did not have the time or interest to keep up with others. So I quit WoW and I play games that do not request so much time and effort.
As someone in a similar spot... Anything struck your fancy since leaving?
@@rj4n Guild Wars 2 is super casual friendly, they have a lot of horizontal progresion, wich means that old things have the same power/value of new things. You don't need to be with the last gear to be at the top lvl, if you have a max lvl character with good gear, leave the game for 2 years and then come back, that character will still be a chr with good gear, even compared to characters with new things
Have you tried RuneScape3?
Same, working on my career, building relationships, new outdoor hobbies, and getting involved in my community have taken the place of my previous gaming time, so now I mostly play slower strategy games that I can save my turn and think about when I have some free time and set up when I log back in, but don't require all my time. I think it is a healthy balance.
Im wondering how much the older generation is shaping gaming developments. It seems many games are getting easier and there is more instant gratification.
I thought that was because of the new generation. But perhaps it actually is because of the previous generation settling in a different phase of their lives with much less time to go by.
Personally I just stay out of mmo's and other games entirely. Just don't have the time to keep up. And there is actually a real danger to my RL if I would get caught in them too much, so better just not touch them at all.
I feel like the problem with soulbinds, conduits and covenants isn’t necessarily the fact that you can’t change in between them so easily. I kinda understand why they wanted to “make the choice meaningful”. The problem is that the meaning of the choice is you either play normally or you suck. There’s too much discrepancy between the choices and the power gap is painful. If you want to put something behind a choice, make all options equal so that you don’t have to choose performance, but instead just how you play.
Choices should have consequences, same as actions. Just play when catch up mechanics are introduced, that solves your problem.
the talent system is crap too you should beable to choose more then 1 type in 1 bracket its just all too confusing.
@@mikialousmaximus4990 even thing you guys say here, make the video title justice, the game is for a select few, who dont plan on doing anything else
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
This touched on the fundamental issue with the game and that is they forgot their own company's philosophy of "Is it fun?"
I swear at some point they hired a mobile game producer who integrated KPIs and decided every corner of new content must be designed to be experienced by the player precisely to determine and maximize the player's time spent in the game. Remember old zones where you could find areas that weren't directly tied to narrative or even side quests? Those don't exist anymore. All of SL zones must be explored and experienced through the game's narrative and questing system. There's nothing to discover anymore because Blizzard will force you to eventually experience everything they've designed for you to spend time on.
Oh no 100% they did employed mobile/gacha pros so they can raise time people spent in game it was mentioned many, many times in span of few years we knew that they care about amount of time people engage in game than "fun" they had. For a reason we call it blizzard "no fun allowed".
Other prove is that they are literat making diablo immortal on mobile and wow unnanoined yet (but mentioned in quarterly reports) wow mobile game.
Ehh there's spots you dont discover in sl through quets line tho, like those floating Isles in ardenwald with random npcs you had to glide before flying and some other hidden spots
The worst thing is that mobile games are "free to play", so there's a completely different design philosohpy that is not compatible with WoW.
@@lordbstarkhell5471 issue is wow for quite a while was not only subbed but timegated/with pay to win accomodities (wow token) so its more of a hybrid at this moment
@@ich3730 In some circumstances it can be sure, however if you design every square inch of the world to be experienced in a linear fashion like we've seen in recent xpacs, it makes the world feel much smaller, and kills any sense of exploration or discovery. These elements used to be a cornerstone of MMOs, but now everything is designed in a way to force players into commiting 'x' number of hours.
no you forgot you are not the center of the universe and started to demand otehr players acomplishments were retroactively made less because you cant meet the challenge. Dogshit playerbase of idiots, no wonder any and all normal players run the fuck away. Casual cancer is all thats left.
I play games 30+ hours a week, and every time I come back to WoW, just thinking about all the things I have to do to even get my foot into the door of any kind of raiding guild at all is overwhelming and the work is not fun at all. There are so many games I'd rather be playing instead of spending weeks catching up to systems and managing addons I don't derive any enjoyment from.
Before MoP, all you had to do was hit the level cap and run some dungeons and you are ready to run some normal raids.
To be fair, that's all that's really required right now as well. The problem is the player base being hyper focused on min-maxing everything, parses, and logs.
@@MIngalls then do 3 m0s, ans 2 torghast runs to get your base leggo?
You are overstating the requirements of a effing normal mode guild
@@MIngalls You've always had to do some type of grind to have decent enough gear to do a raid. Conduits are given to you at this point that are good enough to do normal raids. You're given gear that's level 233 which is also fine for raiding on normal.
You bring up the major power differences in one piece of gear vs another. You're focusing on min-maxing aspects, which I said you can avoid and just play. A full raid with base gear and a decent raid leader can do the raids.
You said you don't care much about raid, so what do you care about? High keys? If so you're living in the hardcore world by definition of playing difficult content so min-maxing becomes progressively important and you're just grinding dungeons any way.
Getting a legendary is unlegendary in difficulty. Do torghast 3 times and you're fine. Pretty basic grind at this point.
@@richardf9121 yep. It's pretty much that simple. It's not as bad as people make it out to be. The player base is looking at content creators who either play at a high level or have their fans carry them. The regular player isn't running mythic raids or 15+ keys.
if you arent ready to run normals after doing some dungeons then thats a skill issue, not a game issue. the first 7 bosses of the new raid are literally braindead and basically have no mechanics as long as you have a functioning brain
"If I have to spend any time leveling a character im pissed" and here we have the reason WoW leveling sucks I used to enjoy leveling a lot of peoplel did but blizzard ruined it by streamlining it
Bad take. The problem wasn't that they made it easier, it's that everyone has done it before. There's no version of leveling up in World of Warcraft people want to do again. It should be removed entirely.
I seriously hate what blizzards become. I always remember being so excited for new releases from blizzard now you can guarantee it's going to be boring or garbage.
They haven't changed, they got replaced. As did most studios and publishers. The hard working nerds who loved making games got replaced with greedy goblins that only care about making bigger and bigger stacks of cash that they can shove up their asses and snowflakes that care more about their identity than their job.
@@danialyousaf6456 Unfortunately those hard working nerds were sometimes actual manchildren like the Jeff Hamilton guy. Thankfully he left Blizzard but man, that guy was on a powertrip.
@@vlecxius yeah.
@@vlecxius yea those darn d2 devs who asked for more then 60k to make another masterpiece those guys r such assholes not blizz
Excitement and hype turned to dread and "what are they gonna mess up this time?"
Thank you for talking me out of getting back into Wow. I used to be utterly addicted, and I've been thinking about getting back in. After watching a bunch of your vids I have no urge to get back into it.
It's still fun, I've played since end of vanilla / start of TBC. Took a break during MOP and started again during season 3 of shadowlands. I'm glad I started playing again, I love wow. If you ever enjoyed the game, it's still worth a sub. Gamers are just super entitled these days and all think they are game developers. Just appreciate it for what it is, and don't obsess over it.
However I will say the wow token is bullshit 🤣 it made it pay to be great. You can still be good and definitely reach end game with only a subscription though. You do not have to buy the token, it just makes things easier.
@@TheGoatLocker I started playing WoW around the start of Burning Crusade, and I played pretty solidly until around Panda/Cata. I played hard-core from WOTLK forward, and i had some amazing times-but I was also hopelessly addicted. Every aspect of my life revolved around WoW, I knew this, but didn't care cause I loved the game and the people I played with.
That said, panda wasn't that great, and cata was "ok," and I started to get back into magic the Gathering again. I realized that the only way to truly stop playing wow was to delete everything, I deleted all the items off my characters, then deleted all the characters, and deleted all the files of my computer-had to be sure.
I haven't played wow since cata, but as I mentioned lately I was feeling the pull back. Though when I really thought about it I realized I've been down that road, and I know exactly where it leads for me.
@Virginie thanks 😊 yeah, I was pretty addicted to it. Even today, I still watch videos about it-but I'll never touch it again.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
There needs to be more than just end game raiding. Almost every update is one dimensional. Very few are about world building. Adding "width" to the game for those bored of raiding, or those who simply don't want to raid. After almost 20 years WoW could have developed a lot more scope than it has.
But the entire revamp of the leveling system is exclusively not for endgame, and is the best it has ever been though?
It feels a bit unfair to complain about stuff being for endgame and then ignoring everything they have done (level squish, scaling zones, chromie time) and now cross faction coming and only look at "endgame"
wasnt the entirety of 9.1 and 9.2 (not having played them) about getting new leveling zones and new stuff to do, that didnt purely involve raiding?
@@zoulsgaming9455 that was all stuff that was done to streamline the game and make it as fast and simple as possible to get to end game content, not to make open world content more expansive or immersive.
i agree we need single player content that is at level of raids, so on so on
@@bigpod Something like that. The game has some width until you reach endgame, then the only two activities are raids, and dailies (which are really grinding in prep for raids). Everything else is a waste of time at that point. I play EvE and have for almost 15 years. The last time I took part in a ship to ship fight was about 3 years ago. I play the stock market, mine and explore. All vital to the game and rewarding.
(I have been ganked twice in that time mind you, and almost ganked more times than I can count) :)
@@PaulRoneClarke i would love that kind of market vibrancy in wow i tend to do professions and leveling myself but it just isnt the same as i hear EveOnline does,
actually tried eve myself but i honestly more got into their articles and some talks by makers about how their server/cluster architecture and security works then into actual game
30:16 This literally happened to me not so long ago in a private server, but not because I was a girl, but because they just invited someone else instead right at the last moment. Got promised a raid spot, spent days rushing to max level, playing all day to get as fully geared as I could to prep for progression. Raid day comes and I'm there waiting for invite, I see the raid time is already running late and everyone is inside the raid, I ask one of the officers and they respond "we're full."
I uninstalled that day.
That's rough, I would've found another raiding group though since u already did the prep work
Ya I would just find a better group of people
I consider myself casual because even though I put in enough play time and care enough about the game to know the lore, know the story and spend the rest of my free time reading, thinking and watching stuff about the game but I absolutely can't be assed to do raiding or pvp. I RP, I vibe, I do legacy content for transmog and mounts and I have a blast.
If raiding wasnt such a nightmare and half your time didnt go into finding a group I'm sure you would really enjoy it. But yeah I fully understand your point.
I feel like this is what the MMO player is supposed to be like. MMO's tend to have worse content, mechanics, gameplay, but TONS of players. If you're not socializing and making your own fun, why even play an MMO? Like, what's the fun of stressing and spending HOURS making a little number go higher so you can farm a piece of loot that does nothing more than make that number a tiny bit higher so you can repeat? To me, socializing, competing, and roleplaying are what MMOs are made for. If you're just grinding numbers to blindly chase a dopamine release in your limbic system, you're not really having any more fun than a donkey chasing a carrot tied to a stick. Sure, you got a carrot in the end, but the person holding the stick has infinite carrots.
@@kokorochacarero8003 I described every MMO since 2010. Destiny had me grinding hours od mediocre Halo gameplay to do raids with my friends, just to find out that they've already moved on by the time I get there.
Id rather do the raid like 10 times and get all the transmogs instead of random percentages drops. I really dislike that mechanism. You could run icecrown hundreds of times and never get invincible.
@@sepsam4556 I don't like raiding not because you have 24 other players there, but because the boss has cheating stats and cheating abilities and cheating immunities. A raid boss should be exactly equal to a player and a boss fight should be exactly equal to a pvp fight.
I remember playing during wrath of the lich King and really enjoying it because it was such a change from how complicated final fantasy 11 felt. FF11 did have some serious hardcore content that could take hours and required the cooperation of up to 60 people sometimes (Dynamis) or more. I never felt that the game made itself difficult, the people did. I couldn't imagine enjoying WoW today with such a narrow focus on endgame.
Aaaah dynamis....the deathfest....lol! I tried wow when i played 11. It felt too dumbed down and didn't make it past lv 20. I don't see many people mention ffxi much anymore. Many hours of linkshell shenanigans and good friends. Miss those days!
The main problem with mmos in general is that grinding feels unrewarding. Grinding should be something that you do on your own initiative to get ahead, not requierd to acces content in game.
Spicy take, I think wakfu(my MMO of choice) does t gate keep "the fun parts" behind levels. Actually the exact opposite. Once you hit level 20(easily doable in under 2 hours), you unlock every single profession market and relavant MMO area in the game. Leveling unlocks the plot as well as the meanest most unfair convoluted fights in the game. Most people I know who play leveled to a level they like(as in the mobs and bosses are still fun for them), and become either guild members, competitive players(because pvp content is scaled to preset levels, only once in a blue moon is the a PvP area opened up for max level players, it ranged from 35(someone with 5 hours of grinding or 10 hours of messing with professions and only fighting mobs here and there) to 230(the max level). Anyone with over 10 hours in the game has access to competitive PvP, and the majority of the player base plays for professions/guilds. I think MMOs need a warm fuzzy community as well as a progression system that doesn’t gate keep the entire draw of the game. From what I’ve heard of WoW it fails at both of these leading to me only hearing bad things and never being told I should give it a try… I think most MMOs fail at one or both of these
"Role Playing Game"
Blizzard: 'You're gonna do what we tell you'
Regular people: 'Yea, no thanks'
Blizzard: _" Azeroth now has Africans. Not black people! _*_Africans!_*_ "_
Roleplayers: _" Yeah, nope. "_
I stop giving them money asmongold needs to do the same
@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly Lmao.
You always have to do what the devs tell you to idiot
@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly Haven't played WoW for a few years, I don't know what you are referring to and am genuinely curious. What are you talking about? Couldn't find anything by googling this.
I remember Cataclysm, and I remember literally no casuals ever asking for LFR at the time. Casuals wanted more accessible dungeons like they had in WotLK. The problem was that Ion didn't sign on to design dungeons. He wanted to design raids, but hardly anyone raided. LFR was simply Blizzard's way of justifying more raids. It's OK for dungeons to be one and done when everyone's a raider.
Before LFR, every content drop included new dungeons. After LFR, it was raid, raid, raid, and more raid with your raid. This idea that LFR was made for casuals is a complete fabrication. When was the last time anyone and their 25 casual friends ever hooked up to casually run content? What casuals wanted was a chill 5-man untimed dungeon experience that didn't punish you for bringing along your alcoholic buddy who shows up plastered to the Friday night beer league dungeon runs.
What we have now is a choice between a 25-man easy mode raid with no organization whatsoever and a 5-man tryhard experience that punishes you for running with players who don't eat, sleep, and breathe the game. Neither appeals to casuals who are looking for a social experience.
One trillion % pure facts but wow players like garbage like m+ so the game is never getting good
It's ironic because the raids in Cata sucked, bad. LFR sucked. Blizzard was already messing up in Wrath with the dungeon finder so LFR was no big surprise.
@@Ziegfried82 what's wrong with the dungeon finder ive seen people hating on it i don't get it
30:15 This is actually pretty close to what happened to me and my wife (then girlfriend) back in Legion. Back then, they had only recently started adding old raids to the Timewalking content and they had brought Ulduar into the WotLK Timewalking event. Cool, pretty exciting, I was looking forward to running through it and my girlfriend was pretty new to the game, but she wanted to get into raiding. I asked a guy who was getting a pug together if we could join and he was cool with it.
We get through the first few bosses with no problems, get stomped by XT-002 and since we committed the sin of the first wipe of the raid, half the raid left. Okay cool.
We slog through some of the other bosses, but manage to get to Yogg nonetheless. By this point, the ~25 people that we had started with whittled down to 14, half of them being the raid lead and his guildies. Nobody knows how to do the fight apparently and we figured out that the clouds that spawn around the room turn into those Faceless One mobs if you touch them. Obviously, don't fucking touch them, right?
We keep trying and keep wiping because there were a lot of times where a cloud would spawn on top of us when we huddled together - I still don't know if that's the strat there or not - but after a while this raid lead would just blame my girlfriend for running into the clouds. She wasn't, I was literally watching her movements as we were doing attempts and she stayed just about on top of the group the entire time. He started arguing with us that she was dragging down the raid, completely ignoring the fact that we were pretty much half-staffed for the raid and her dps was actually pretty solid.
He starts the fight, half the group isn't ready, we wipe because nobody's grouped up, he starts shouting at her again and kicks her from the raid. He tried going back into discussing strategies and I'm just like "You can keep trying with your shitshow guild all you like, you can either apologize to my girlfriend and invite her back or you can figure this out without her AND your top dps." I was the only one doing consistently high damage for the entire raid so this dude got all flustered and tried making excuses about "she obviously doesn't understand the raid," "she can't even play her class right," whatever else. Soon as he said "she's just a dumb girl" I cut him off to say "and you're a dumbfuck GM who can't manage a guild well enough to run Ulduar without having to resort to getting a pug together, so go fuck yourself" and left the call.
The other people in the call whispered me and let me know that they never got the Yogg kill and it was a shitshow, the GM kept kicking people for "insubordination" and went on a rant at one point about how girls don't know how to play video games and they're useless.
I sincerely hope that when they do the expansion announcement tomorrow, they make some mention of how they're going to handle player toxicity. Getting kicked from a dungeon because you don't have the latest version of an addon or because your DPS is below the 99th percentile is fucking stupid and should be punishable. Telling people to kill themselves because they don't know boss mechanics should be punishable. Being a toxic cunt should be punished with a timeout so they can think about what they've done and stop being a toxic cunt.
Also requiring addons to raid blows. If the game isn't telegraphing a boss's attack that will rock my shit, then why am I being punished for not using the 3rd party addon that someone HAD to develop so that attack DOES get telegraphed?
Lol sounds so much like my raiding experience in bfa.. I joined a raiding guild with my boyfriend, we were doing nyalotha, worked super hard to go from normal to heroic. All the while I got zero respect or acknowledgement from any of the other raiders. I topped the dps meters 90% of the time, I knew my tactics and I was never obnoxious or attentionseeking in discord, only discussing raid tactics and not really talking much otherwise. They would ignore me all the time, 'forget' my raid invites eventhough I was always signed up on time. They would only communicate to my boyfriend, invite him and then 'forget' me (we always raided together and I even helped him understand the tactics etc). I always put in my 100% and they'd disrespect me to my face, congratulated people below me on the dps charts on their amazing numbers and often just ignore me all together. They basically bullied me off the team, made my boyfriend raid officer. I left that guild and some other women who were in there later also left saying it happened to them too. One of the guys we raided with even asked specifically why my boyfriend left and that they missed him, when my boyfriend mentioned me they literally asked 'who was that? I don't know that person'.. I fucking raided with them every week.. This left me with such a nasty feeling I never touched a raid since 😖
@@KoiaKiss doesn't surprise me. Most of those hard-core guilds are incels living in their mothers basement who look like the guy from the Southpark WoW episode. They hate on women cause yall have standards and won't date them. Honestly surprised I've never been kicked out of a guild for being gay yet tbh.
uhh no, getting kicked from a dungeon because your dps is low should not be punishable lol jesus you're so fucking dumb
@@KoiaKiss that´s really sexist and fuckt up. You even learned your boyfriend tactics haha. I hope a good an friendly guild will come by soon!
@@KoiaKiss Incels can't handle women being better than them. The worst thing you could of done is actually be good, it immediately doomed you. Now granted they are a bunch of incels so fuck them, just a shame that the raid scene lost what sounded like a good raider and I honestly don't blame you for not coming backm
Can you imagine how wicked a mage tower type thing would be for leveling? Have it be 60 floors, level per floor, do some challenges that increase in difficulty, however far you make it is the level you start at. Only for alts though*
And why you deserve to get your lets say warlock alt to max faster than someone who mained one exacly?
@@86Corvus Because it's an alt.
@@DanielK-rr5mz so what? peoples second pickins should be easier? and the person who dedicated themselves to a class should have it harder than a weak impatient fuckwith? What kind of lazy idiot logic is that?
@@DanielK-rr5mz That's not a good reason
@@86Corvusmy guy did you read the comment?
He said for alts, so the same way if he mained a shaman and played to level 60, if your alt was a shaman it would work the same way.
Relax
What I would like to see is random quests. You walk into a cave (anywhere in the game) and you find a Quest or Chest or Rare Mob or Boss. Perhaps you are sent to a dungeon, say Deadmines for a solo mission. The dungeon scales appropriately, and so on. And you can find BiS gear this way too - because - why not? If you raid, it should be because you want to defeat the bosses not just to find gear. Obviously raidbosses might drop specific items/mounts etc. But I would very much like to see more adventure, randomly, everywhere that is truly rewarding.
Biggest problem for new players would be that they're not treated as new players, if you've been playing wow for years you probably won't notice it but if you start right now with no knowledge of wow universe, you'll get no where without extensive research about lore, mechanics, optimal farming and what addons to download.
Leveling is a pain in the ass if you're new. It sucks
@@lucadesanctis563 Then wow sucks as a concept (that means if you are too dumb to understand. Vanilla-shadowlands sucks)
That is not true. YOu can get anywhere in the game as a new player. It barely requires a brain.
WoW is pro casual as fuck.
- There are tons of guides for everything
- Almost Entire community already knows what to do so you can go ask anyone for help
- There is LFR to beat the entire game in one run
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
"that's why I'm glad they have the $60 boost" -- you have it backwards you meant to say "that's WHY they have the $60 boost" it's no accident that the ultra expensive store item feels like a necessity
Little confused as to why he doesn't get this. Must be millionaire streamer brainrot.
It's worse than just casual players. WoW devs, in one of their more idiotic business moves, have decided to focus exclusively on people who already play WoW. New players, no matter how dedicated, are gonna struggle.
This is yet another product of the fragile egos at Blizzard. They're only interested in people who already like the game. Otherwise, they might have to face and actually deal with the massive deficiencies in their product.
aka the entire game because its shit.
I have tried to get my friend into WoW and he is very intimidated by its interface and these aren't people that don't play games, these are full time gamers. Its a very old school game still and I doubt without a ground up rebuild it will remain mostly for existing WoW players as a drastic change would alienate veterans but I can't think of many games these days that almost require a UI mod to play the game, then you have to get used to setting up weak auras, binding your keys to mouse/keyboard with shift/alt modifiers also and then make macro's. There is no way anyone would know this without either a friend or dedicating a good few hours of time to researching videos on UI mods and spec rotations.
Maybe they could add a new UI but leave the option open for a 'Classic UI' mode that still leaves access to what long time players are used to?
@@Khranok It's 2022 and you still need a third-party plugin to move a window. That about says it all.
@@johnnygraz4712 The UI is hard stuck in 1366x768, all it does is upscale and downscale poorly. Even UI replacements have to work within these constraints, best example I can give is how even with ElvUI font scaling is completely fucked, and that's not on the guys that develop ElvUI, the API is what they're stuck with.
I cannot even begin to tell you how incredibly infuriating it is that players will sit and get snowed by fake ass "story" controversies contrived by blizzard to paper over and distract from actual problems, like UI art assets that literally have not been remastered or updated in nearly 20 years.
The game is fucking unplayable without a UI replacement and addons. They've gotten so lazy with their telegraphs that you NEED to play with DBM to even know what the fuck is going on in a fight, at the simplest level just past solo world content. Even in solo content it's frustrating to even tell what is going on most the time and you're just overgearing shit.
For a community that is so stuck in on the "git gud" mentality, which seems to have a significant overlap with the same soulslike attitudes, this is just baffling.
Soulslikes live or die on the quality of their telegraphs, the player not knowing what the fuck is even happening is not a failure of the player, it's the goddamn game not telling them what they need to know.
I just love how they'll stick you with some 2 paragraph long debuff that'll wipe the group and expect you to read that shit while you've got a 2x2 moving safe spot on the ground, while hitting defensives to offset unavoidable damage, and trying to get your convoluted rotation off the ground.
the devs were also exposed to be a part of the "lower" %/IDK/IDC playergroup that would rarely complete any hard content....as their basis of the state of the game. From their player experience at least
This is why I prefer playing on private servers if I just wanna dink around the game. It doesn’t cost me anything and I can still play through the story content without being limited since a lot of those will allow you faster levelling or something or other that improves the gamer experience over what blizzard is selling you.
Played WoW in 2003/04 as a teenager with friends and we were blown away and all of us devoted HOURS and hours and loved it (hello Aussie server raids at 2am!)
Last hurrah for me was Burning Crusade... It was an amazing ride and the Dark Portal/Outworld was such a great time... It seems things have changed?
I did exactly the same. Then I did it again up to the end of classic before BC dropped. Loved it. The levelling and exploring and questing was the best bit. Had no interest in raiding. Great Times great memories, and now I'm out.
Raids have always been the main issue of this game .
People are in such a hurry to skip the leveling process, be it buying boost in vanilla or the 60$ max level boost.
It's honestly more fun to solo fight a gnoll camp in redridge in vanilla than being in any raid and just spam a few buttons.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
Very true
EQ was a hardcore game, but even if you just played an hour or so a bad it felt like you did something because the goal of the game was the journey and exploration. WoW's problem is the end is all that matters so if you aren't there and doing all that end-game crud; there isn't much there for you beyond farming pets and mounts.
Same, I started in 2008, but I only reached max level after a year, cuz I would fuck around and talk to people, explore, make alts. There wasn't much of a rush back then, and I'd still see a lot of people in the world.
Now I'm just getting rushed to 60 so the "real game" starts
I play zero hour of WoW each week, yet I still finished this video. Guess I am super hardcore.
I watch these because I enjoy asmon and watching wow die. I've played 0 hours since BfA and I only leveled to 100 and whatever it was because of asmongold falsely hyping the game. It sucked and was an awful experience. It's much funner to watch wow die from afar. I hope dragon isles is a complete garbage fire so I can continue to have good content to watch.
But I’d also bet in your life you’ve played more wow than most. Even if it wasn’t recently
I watched this for laughs after watching his excellent Diablow Immoral commentary. But I will always see WoW players, even the raiders as casuals. I'm from the EverQuest era. Raiding in WoW was a breeze in comparison. 16 hours per week is hardcore? I considered my raiding 20 hours per week in WoW to be very casual but then I look at the world at large and realize most people simply are not gamers.
The only people who could possibly hate WoW are the people who have actually played it...
Dear Asmongold, thank you for bringing this video to my attention. I was on the fence on whether to get back into wow for Dragonflight, but now after seeing this I remember how punishing wow is for casual players so I will give it a miss. Many thanks!
Classic?
@@hata6290 Classic is sadly the same as Retail the Endgame is mostly gatekeeped and the lv phase is dead because all hanging out just in raids
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
bro said a whole lot of nothing!!@@theKCMOPAR
but he is rich. !!@@dex9722
That is why I love FF14 so much. It respects my time. I play, I get gear, the progression is 100% linear, and when I have the gear, I have the best one. Maybe I will slot other material. Maybe.
In WoW, I need to spend a lot of time to "rectify" my "mistake" for not writing a PhD Thesis on the benefits of cast canceling Evocation at 4 arcane stacks to squeeze in 1 more AB.
This was a really good video. You nailed it when you said we need other content besides that which feeds people that get their ego only from the game. I would be extremely happy to drop the add-ons and progress at a fun pace. Wrath was fun because they had a world to explore and the raids were available to even casuals eventually.
Theres normal, heroic and mythic dungeons. Lfg, normal, heroic and mythic raids. Like wtf you mean? You want to progress at fun pace, what is stopping you? What other content you want? "Wrath was fun you had world to explore and raids were for casuals" when you have that and fking 5 different difficulty settings for raids and dungeons. Like what do you mean?? You cant raid as a casual? Thats a big fking lie lmao
@@hoh8627 I remember people in wrath complaining about the same stuff. I was in a guild that had two raids going, they were split up between people who were good and people who were not the best. In the later good players were running the raid on their alts. Both raids made it through, but the second had to wait for the first players to take up half the raid spots on their alts.
I think the recent changes regarding the gooey saber only proves to me that they hate casual gamers. For an entire season now, LFR only players and solo players will get absolutely nothing for season 4. But who cares. Fuck blizzard.
You basicly are complaining that WoW an MMO is not a singleplayer game.
also wrath is not far from shadowlands.
@@Narutofan825 I mean, in wrath, wow was more single player friendly than ever before, especially at end game. It did not require a full on raid to get a violet proto drake, for example. There were a couple FOMO mounts, such as black proto drake, which they listed in advance that there were going away, and there were multiple models you could get, and it didn't change at the last minute, to, well, it was FOMO on the black proto drake, but now it isn't. Hell, people are still pissed that you can actually get the plagued proto drake again, even though that was never intended lol. BMAH is incredibly rare, but still. Obtainable in that 1 in like 10 k chance you actually manage to outcap and outbid other players in gold coin for it.
Either way, they changed the wording for the green slimy kitten at the last second. I still think that is bullshit, especially since there is pretty much nothing for those players to get in season 4 of shadowlands. I did not have to do any raids to get a black war mammoth or a brown bear in wrath either. Just some automated 5 mans here and there for the stone keeper's shards. A ton of solo reputation grinds to. But nothing for shadowlands season 4. Unless you are normal player and above for shadowlands. But nothing for Solo and LFR only players.
As a filthy casual, I managed to do normal raids in SL and it burnt me out pretty quickly. I pretty much solely mount farm now.
lmao same..
My god I love this video. I’ve literally just been leveling new guys from 1, hitting 60, getting confused and doing it again. Or doing old raids
Casual players have wanted quality solo content since the game first released, I raided in both Vanilla and TBC and also wanted that quality solo content on top of that. Blizzard based their game around showing players what they could have, leading them along a storyline and locking it/the end behind play mechanics in which people have to jump through rings of frustration. I have played casual ever since realised that around the Sunwell content patch in TBC. I may play Shadow lands content at some point.
gaming is jumping through rings of frustration, frustration is the feeling you feel when you fail at your goals and because of it the acomplishment feels sweet. Theres nothing wrong with wow being challenging and time consuming, theres everything wrong with lazy assholes demanding trophies for participation because they are weak and destroying the fun for everyone who isnt a mouthbreathing shrimpbrained moron.
I'm a casual player. I just want to explore, enjoy the story, level and collect pets. I don't like dungeons or raiding, they stress me out, mostly because I know I'm bad and don't want to be abused for it...
Who cares if people you don't know abuse you for being a noob that's weak to care what they think I'm just being brutally honest. Why would you even care enough about these people for what they think of you to matter? It's also just a game it's not real life so who cares if you're good or bad I just play video games for fun most people who are ridiculously good at video games got no other talents besides video games. Not to hate on wow player's cuz I wanna try playing this game otherwise I wouldn't be watching this video but the majority of wow player's not all wow player's have no talents outside of video games which is why wow gets a reputation of the geeks game. The less you care about anyone or anything the less you care what people think about you.
How about have fun abusing them back in a taunting calm cool not angry type of way so you're messing with them back but you don't give them the emotional reaction they wanna get from you. Just act like you're not angry and are just being a dick. Also try doing thing's to mess other player's up and get them killed. When I played cod mw2 I named myself friendlyfire and ran around killing my teammates all day long. People were fucking pissed😆.
You sound gay evrn when typing.
I was a new player at the end of the BfA. Leveling up was total chaos (back then at least), thrown from one zone to another, lore completely scattered and made no sense to me. After leveling up I wouldn't have known what to do in endgame and how to join dungeon/raid groups if my brother hadn't told me, because the game didn't. I made a resto druid because I liked the idea. Took me a while to realise that the main reason why I sucked so bad in dungeons and why everything felt so clunky and awkward was that there is this thing that I didn't have - mouseover macros/addon (which is basically mandatory for a healer) and some other addons. And then if I wanted to be decent for even pretty basic group content I had to watch and read a bunch of guides as well. At that point my progress was determined almost entirely by how much outsourcing of information I could do. Still largely the case. The whole process is so confusing and half of the game isn't even in the game.
Not entirely sure how or why I got through all that :D
There were times when I just pushed through because my brother said it gets better. Lol, that's what you say to people struggling with depression or something :D
It's an MMO. What did you expect? You do realize the difference between singleplayer game and an MMO right?
@@Narutofan825 why mmos have to be awful to play without addons and other shit external to the game?
@@luke-il5nr for fun.and they arent bad things.
You wont get cancer if you browse for 5 min for those things
This is why people don’t take and it should never take the so call casual serious, only add on you need to play wow is weakaura
@@asasdsaasda I don't quite understand what you mean with the first part of your comment. Regarding the second though, weakaura is in itself like a whole subset of addons, you need to look into which one/ones you need. And it's pretty much impossible to play without DBM, unless you're content with running like a headless chichen in lfr 😄 The encounter difficulty is set up with dbm or a similar addon in mind. And mouseover, at least for a healer, is a must as well. I would say that's what's essential even for a casual player if they want to do anything more than plain questing.
The whole point of the game is trying to progress though, even if not very competitively, and to do that there's a whole lot more you might need, depending on how quickly you want to be progressing and how pleasant you want the game to be (e.g. making annoying parts of the game more clear and managable). Consider also that if you fail you'll get blamed and insulted by other players so having the addons that most players have is kind of a must for your enjoyment of the game and sanity 😄
It's interesting how things have changed because Blizzard used to do the exact opposite when they were a meteoric company. They would target the middle of the market and let everyone else figure it out.
Need to get back to this. Should go back to 2 raid difficulties and remove all the barriers so people can just play the game. It’s funny that all the systems they put in to keep people playing are the same systems that have drove record levels of exodus from the game. Blizz has some serious soul searching to do and they are running out of chances with other games pulling close or ahead of them at this point. Either way whatever happens I enjoyed my time and nothing lasts forever.
8:36 That is a fair point, but Blizzard also makes it impossible to experience early content that gives context to the later content. Classic servers help with that, but trying to get through the content of a Classic server (including raids) can take you just as much (or more) time to complete than doing the new content. A lot of new players don't want to do that and may be left confused. As a long time standing player that started very late (been playing only since Warlords of Draenor), it took me so long to even figure out how to experience the content from the beginning, what I needed to do to experience it, find a group that was willing to take me in, and I have only recently started on the raiding for TBC. I have all but given up on experiencing the game for the content, and for a guy that plays games for the content that means I have given up on WoW.
@@GDC2127 It makes me really sad to agree here. I have still found enjoyment in aspects of the game but not enough to devote my time to it like I once did.
Your entire comment makes no sense.
@@Narutofan825 okay I'll be more clear. 6 words.
Just nailed it. My friends and I are casual players, and every single one of them stopped playing wow, cos of mentioned reasons. Too complex, compared lets say to WOLTK, some got punished choosing wrong covenant, some got fed up from setting up addons and messy UI. ect.
This is part of why many haven't come back, even with the updated gameplay graphics and new expansions.
"Punished for the wrong decision" is exactly why I quit.
I came back during BFA after quitting during Cata, decided I wanted to pick back up on Death Knight.
Played my DK for two weeks, grinding dailies, grinding the currency to get into horrific visions. Grinded levels for my HoA and cloak.
After two weeks I realized I hated Death Knights rotation, and the fact 60% of my DPS was from auto-attacks.
Decided I wanted to try Paladin, used my boost for it. Enjoyed the rotation more, then went to pick up my cloak and HoA and realized nothing I did on DK carried over for Paladin.
Instantly logged out, uninstalled the game and I haven't come back.
i didnt realize how good the job system is in final fantasy 14 until i made a rogue in wow and wanted to heal after a certain point only to realize i had to make a brand new character lol.
@@dogsbecute yeah it was pretty bad in BFA.
I guess they've slightly improved things, but managing alts in WoW is still decades behind FFXIV
This is the biggest true.
The whole "Casuals ruined the game" was always the dumbest take since everything that was designed for casual players was streamlined so raiders didn't have to do it, leveling alts? pre-raid progression? tier progression? all removed for the hardcore audience
And how can people complain about there not being any content if LFR exists kekw
Turns out raid logging is boring for millions of players, and over the past 10 years blizzard has been bleeding players and all the chores are just a vain attempt to keep people subbed, but let me tell you, if you're a casual player, you don't play 2 hours a day every day, if you are really this mystical 9-5 dad with 20 kids and 7 wives, realistically you don't have any time to play video games, and even if you were this mythical turbo dad working 9-5 while taking care of 20 kids and 7 wives and still had time to play video games, its more likely than not that your gaming time is going to be on your weekends and not spread out 2 hours a day of doing chores, as a casual player you can usually get more stuff done if you had a non-timegated progression system that lets you work towards your goals 6-10 hours on your weekend rather than doing torghast and dailies every day/week on reset.
mythical turbo dad
Dude if you can manage 7 wives and 20 children, i dont see a reason ehy you cant fit wow in there somewhere hahaha
I was going to reply with exactly this. I am much more of a casual gamer than I used to be, though still more hardcore than most genuine casual players. Still, most of my gaming happens on the weekends, and I am single and don't have any kids, so I have less going on than most people. I have no desire to play WoW if I have to log on for a few hours every day to do chores, I want to get on during the weekend when I have nothing but free time and slam a game for 6-8 hour chunks.
LFG/LFR systems, welfare epics, catch up rep mechanics, skippable zones later on in every xpac, removal of rating gated items from pvp, removal of rank 1 titles, literally every raid gets nerfed 30days after its launch FOR casual players.
Wtf are you guys ON about? All im seeing is a bunch of addicted shit players who have never played another mmo, if you think this game is catered to HARDCORE players, you obviously never played Wildstar or Aion or any of the other now DEAD HARDCORE ORIENTATED GAMES.
If this game was HARDCORE it would have died YEARS ago, TBC was introduced as a more CASUAL FRIENDLY VERSION OF THE GAME COMPARED TO VANILLA.
@@mis8866 You do realize that dungeon finder and welfare modes for raids were made so the developers could spend more time developing raid content and less on progression content?
Also progression was ripped out of the game in general so top end raiders didn't have to gear up newbros, ruining the experience for everyone else by creating FOMO seasonal nonsense.
WOW was in its prime before welfare systems ever took place, WOTLK was too easy and the subs flatlined, 3.2 onward was the beginning of raidlogging welfare mode for the game, and note how cataclysm onward there was a downward trend in subs, and even when everyone came back due to WOD hype, they all quit in mere weeks after WOD's launch because all the development went into the raids and there was 0 world content and pre-raid progression.
Game is on maintainence mode, the lead developer only cares about raids, everything else is a disjointed mess of non-gameplay and class design is balanced around paper DPS so it just feels bad to play until you get into scenarios where your DPS matters, and even then not everyone enjoys playing weakaura DDR
Addons that were proper were things like TRP3 that helped the role-playing community and something similar to Total-RP should have been implemented 15 years ago.. Players should be able to write in a journal attached to your character sheet that others could open/read and it could be anything written down in it. Role-Players would use it for character descriptions, some players might be trying to sell something not on the AH.. etc.
Or else
TRP is super chill. even for non RPers playing on RP servers
I feel like on your first character you should play the full levelling experience. But when you add your second or whatever character you get an option in creation. Something along the lines of “you have already experienced the main story, would you like to boost your character to level 60” or some shit. Where you’ll be 60 and have some basic lvl 60 gear so you don’t have to play the ENTIRE thing again or pay real world money to try out something new
There’s so much questing required even at max level. They should just rapidly level you through current xpac story. Or at most require a single other xpac of story. Honestly 1-60 isn’t that bad. It’s the fact that there’s so much bland BS at 60 that you have to engage with before you’re even playing end content with your friends in a fun enjoyable way. It’s particularly problematic when you’re coming back to the game during the final tier of an expansion after not playing for the whole expansion. By that time the systems are so complex and fleshed out and there’s so much Grindy mediocre nonsense that it stops being fun.
I hate level skips in mmos, period. If you're leveling a different class, you have to learn that class too. If the leveling experience is good, it shouldn't be an issue, but most modern mmos cater to lazy people who want to get to endgame as fast as possible. Leveling characters and jobs was part of the EQ and FFXI experience, the leveling experience was so fun when done right that as soon as you got one to max, you'd want to start on the other. In original EQ and FFXI, the group leveling experience started pretty much at level ten, and yeah, you could solo to max, but it wouldn't be easy or quick. I have so many great memories of those low level parties, as much if not more than the times I had running endgame content. Yeah, sometimes finding a group sucked, and sometimes the groups you got sucked, but then there were those times when you found that special group of players and you'd get ten, fifteen, or even twenty levels in a single party, in a game with a hardcore grind. You don't get that with these modern mmos, because you're mainly soloing to lvl cap and that is understandably boring after doing it a couple of times through the same quests and storyline. All the social aspects are now relegated to the endgame, which necessarily becomes the only part of the game that matters. I don't know if you can cater to both, but give me a good leveling experience over level skips any day, the endgame is not supposed to be the whole game, it wasn't that way back in the day, and I can't tell that making it so has improved the genre any at all. Oh yeah, so convenient to not play the game I purchased to play, and what is this you say, there are all these unverified noobs ruining your dungeon and raid experience because they're max level and can't play their jobs? Those kinds of people didn't get to max level so easily in the old west of MMO, they either got gud or got gone. Maybe it shouldn't be that harsh, but group leveling should still be huge part of these games even as they try to make it easier for people who don't have eternity to lfg.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
What? Lmfao
I laugh at Asmon vids quite often. But this one takes the cake. Brilliantly funny!
This video summarizes why his community loves him, and why that community is beyond the borders of any particular game.
Thank you Zack for the entertainment being yourself.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
I've been feeling this for a long time. I started playing WoW when BC came out, and enjoyed all aspects of the game. But I was never very happy with raiding since it seemed to be just like running Dungeons, but with 10 times the hassle and downside. So as a result, now, 10+ years later, there's nothing for me to do if I still don't like raiding. I supposed I could spend my time collecting pets or mounts, or making gear to sell, but that's like sitting and doing needlepoint, or scrapbooking.
What do you do at end game then ? Also its were the best gear comes from 😂😂
@@classicandy5317 i am in same boat as L A and i just always use to do pvp.... but 10 + yrs on bgs and the same arena gets stale... wish they added new maps like warsong gulch again
@@joshturner9766 i agree with you on the fact that they should add more pvp maps ,mean its crazy to think they have done nothing with pvp in 10 years .
In BC you had Arena and Raids and they were pretty equal. I loved it but it went downhill fast and I quit. Never been a fan of raiding because dealing with that many people is frustrating as fuck and maybe raids are fun and "challenging" the first time but then it's just repetetive work until you get the thing you want.
I played WoW actually for Roleplaying. But because of raiding, everything was hot on the horde, and alliance side died out there, everything Roleplay switched to one particular server, while Blizz went to merge 8 servers together where i played, trying to fix the alliance popuplation. But then creating problems in the Roleplaycommunity by forcing established concepts together on a server they didn´t want to be in the first place - also leading to ppl either to switch to horde or leave for the greater RP server, now having 8 Servers merged where´s almost no Alliance left. Funny this isn´t Blizz´s Audience at all although Roleplayers spent a decent amount of time in the game, actually not caring about most of the content anyway. Never thought I would ever quit that game after more than 10 years roleplaying there
I agree. I am a very new and casual player because I work full time (and usually long hours), I am married and my husband doesn’t play these games. I get maybe 3 hours a week that I can play. My sister (a hardcore player) is the one that started me on this game and carried me along. But without her, I just could barely play on my own. It is so difficult to figure out how to follow the story; I mean how do you find the quests that take you through the story? It’s not obvious; my sister had to point them out to me but getting through each quest to the next one in the storyline seemed to break often. Then I found the raids and dungeons very difficult for me. It may be because I am new to this type of game; I’ve never played one of these before or I just don’t belong here. I chose to start with WoW because everyone knows it and it looked amazing. The storyline was really important to me but I couldn’t follow it at all; it was confusing. Once I got past the first 15 or 20 levels I found that even the quests were so difficult to do solo. My sister then found FFXIV and we switched and it was a wonderful change for me and seems much more inviting to the casual player. I am still very sad about WoW not working for me but at least I found something that I thoroughly enjoy. Still sad about WoW……
Indeed, it's hard to follow the story as casual. If you want to finish an old expansion story, you need to finish old raids, but they don't have any easy mode (but for some reason, the ones from the last expansion have looking for group/lfg/easy mode)
you're trying to play the most notoriously time-consuming game genre with only three hours a week. Sounds like you should ask your sister about other games you could try that arent made to be time sinks
An easy solution would be to integrate easy raids. An example would be like Ulduar 2.0. Something that is so old that anyone can do it, but make it 10-60 content. In other words scale it up. That would give the casual players, raids to experience, and would also be like an entryway into what raiding takes. Before anyone says "wE HaB LfR" thats not at all what I mean. Im talking a 25 man dungeon. That requires people to be involved or you fail. Unlike dungeons which are usually a pyscho tank steamrolling and pulling the entire dungeon. The players then dont get to experience the actual content because they grouped them in LFG and the guy is from another server and doesnt care.
I started as a casual gamer and paid for retail and created a deathknight as was so excited to start running dungeons, however everyone just kept kicking me out mid run and would try to ask what happened and got no replies and eventually just quit and started classic instead.
I agree with Asmon here, i think in order to access a boost (granted could be cheaper) at least 1 charcter per/realm needs 1 character to max level sort of how they used to level cap race unlocks ie. (Old format Level 50/70 for a DK/DH unlock)
As a non WoW or MMO player I have always been confused by adons. They always seemed to me like legal cheats. And its just super weird!
Yep
I love when Asmon does this... watching a low sub RUclipsr and highlighting their content. Very good video and he deserves it =)
hearing about how long it takes to get ready to raid in WoW is stunning to me. I play Destiny 2 on occasion, and we recently got 6 new friends to play. so we decided we'd drop all of them in a raid, 6 player activity in D2, and watch them fail with the occasional tips from our side. They were ready to attend this raid within a weekend of playing. One of them we used to fill for a sixth mate in the newest raid when their PC quit on them, with very few problems. But this is insane
This video highlights every reason why I no longer have fun in this game and why I never will again. Retail WoW is so god damn boring today, I hate having to do so many grinds, so many requirements and farms just to get raid ready, I miss doing dungeons for pre raid bis, going into raids and getting my bis gear while on the side discovering new places and having fun with friends, etc.
As a casual player, having played the game now for 15 years on the same toon and on the same server, I can say that everything in this video is completely accurate. I enjoy playing the game purely for relaxation. The other game that I like to play is chess and it's just a completely different environment. For me I started playing when my son was young as a way of having fun ways to bond and to play a game together and ended up really enjoying the game essentially. On the other hand I never make it past LFR Because I don't want to be in a Hardcore group and I also work 60 hours a week at my job, so when I play I want to relax and not be stressed out and I therefore do not do high-level raiding or mythic plus dungeons as I just don't have the time to devote and I also don't want to be in a group of people who are so angry and anxious, or really repetitive stuff. I play for a few months after an expansion just for the new things and to keep my mind occupied but the truth is that there is not a lot of content for people like myself, which is silly because there's a lot of ways they could change that. I go back to game playing when Zork was an interactive literature based storyline game. Interactive storytelling and gameplay is a lot more than just grinding out Rep and acquiring gear. You can create storyline in content and problem-solving that isn't about grinding and can be either communal or solo played. I had really hoped that torghast was going to be something like that but they didn't really seem to understand how to make that work. Thanks for posting
cliche' as it sounds, i believe final fantasy 14 may be a good game to try. they've recently done strides in making it casual and solo friendly, including making solo dungeons with AI party members. plus, the storyline sounds like what you're looking for, though it's hardly "interactive."
For a game you'll be playing around your work schedule, I highly recommend Guild Wars 2. That game respects your time. It is, in my opinion, the best co-op mmo. It's free to try, so I hope you'll give it a chance.
@@obviouslykaleb7998 Thanks, I'm not sure I'm really ready to start an entirely new game, although I am pretty ready to quit wow, lol, but thanks I'll take a look at it. It just feels a little daunting to try and start something from scratch. I can play my tune on this character without even thinking about it because I've been playing it so long
@@PinkiePie2 I can take a look, but again I'm not really sure I can start something new from scratch. But thank you so much for the suggestion
@@PinkiePie2 PS just a quick FYI, guild wars two is no longer available for macOS. Thought you might wanna know that.
A game can be fun to both tryhard and casual without having both do the exact same things in the game.
@@Hooga89 Ehhm no. Not having watched the video the entire story of shadow lands was perfectly serviceable for casual consumption, all of the transmog and wardrobe system that rewards you for questing for fun and razing through old content. All of the changes to the leveling system encourages people to enjoy the open world and questing more than ever, hopefully even more in dragon flight.
The game has so much content that "casuals" can also do, if you just want to pet battle or fish or collect transmogs you can do it, but if you reach endgame and expect to get the same gear as people who run mythic +15, that you arent even going to use for anything, then you are in the wrong game.
I think its reasonable that raids arent for the casual audience, i always felt that way, but even that isnt true with LFR and normal raid difficulty anymore, and judging the game solely on stuff such as raids which most casual players might not even care about is like saying "if we judge this game with all this stuff purely on this one criteria aimed at hardcore players, then its only a game for hardcore players"
@@Hooga89 so you say casuals have nothing to do, but when multiple examples are given, you say no not that it’s the gear. Casual players have gear progression if not they would all still be in 140 gear.
See FF14. The casual players are just hanging out in their in-game houses, doing fashion, hanging out in the town squares listening to bard concerts and just chilling. The hardcore ones are doing raids, pushing content, melding, etc.
People in ESO are basically doing the same thing.
In WoW, the true hardcore already beat the raid and stopped raiding and the casuals are playing Elden Ring.
@@zoulsgaming9455 all the completionist casual content is locked behind weeklies and dailies and reputation, farming the same instances every day/week on 20 characters just to have a 0.2 chance for a mount or transmog and doing reputation farms which also a lot of them are basically dailies is tedious and unfun. To see good completionist content see guild wars 2 for example, that barely has any dailies and it's just do whatever you want whenever you want.
@@hatemeister GW2 has a ton of dailies and i actually used to like them back when they were general but having recently logged in they are all too specific, i remember "kill x mobs" or "kill an elite" now its like "do x thing in this one specific zone" which irks me enough to not bother doing it
its also dishonest to call people who grind for some super low level mount casual, its once again just moving the goal post of "hey there are things that takes time to get in the game" which yes, good, great job. But a friend and i had some good fun getting raid achievements in old raids where some of them i might need to do twice but most of it could be done with a bit of prep, alongside just running whatever i wanted to get cosmetics instead of inanely farming a single mount and then call that casual.
Its almost like you refuse to admit that there is an entire game with 15 years of content to play through that isnt centered on the newest endgame, most of which are disconnected zones you can enjoy the story in due to the recent changes. Which is one of the big strengths of wow.
WoW knows it's not a growing game, so instead of focusing on appealing to new or casual players, it focusses exclusively on keeping the current players logging in; that's all anyone needs to know about any design decision they make, these days.
Exactly. Like FromSoft focuses on hard games, their games are known to not be easy and that's their niche. Asmon even praises the games for being hard and tells people to l2p, yet WoW being hard is a problem?
If you talk to a lot of former WoW players who quit after WotLK, they'll say the casualization of WoW was exactly what drove them away. You look at private server scenes, they complain that the biggest issue with classic was that the raids were too easy, because private servers buffed the content.
@@RG32822 WoW offering hard content is not a problem, the problem is that the time investment required to tackle it is too high for the average player, and the content that average player could do in the past is now out of their reach. Elden Ring is also a completely different game so I don't see why you're even bringing it up.
@@EndOfExistence1337 current wow isn't hard. It's fucking diablo level hard. It's get good rng to get your mythic 15 chest gear. Oh did you get your tier set this week? Too bad you won't be able to do the mythic raiding because it's no longer about your skill, but how much gear you have. It's a fucking joke. There should be one difficulty. Neigh impossible and the crazy legendary and tier sets are a reward to make the farm easier. Not the fucking requirement to down the boss.
When the game goes that direction... ABANDON SHIP! It's only downhill from here.
@@NazzyDragon Every time.
Honestly, the old world was awesome. It was a huge place with many different regions which all had their own special story and dungeons and which all felt alive.
You had many different ways to level to 60. Yes, some areas were kinda mandatory. But for the most part you were not limited to a single road.
Now look at current content.
I'm gonna be honest, I haven't played anything past Cata. But I'm pretty sure the amount of variety and different paths you can take has been getting less and less. So for every character you have to go and do the exact same stuff, right?
It's no big surprise people can't stand it.
Vanilla got really tedious after the fourth or fifth alt. I bet in the newer expansions the second time is hardly bearable and everything after is just a horrible drag.
The attack on replayable leveling started in TBC when everyone was being funneled through the same linear questing experience past the first zone. The only expansions that bucked that trend were Cataclysm, BFA, and Shadowlands.
...I don't think we're going to see divided campaigns again any time soon.
As someone who grew up with Everquest, DAoC, and Ultima Online, when WoW came out, everyone in my group of friends was like "Lol WoW? That's the baby, casual MMO". Because back then, it was. It was the most accessible, least time consuming, and most "fair" in terms of how it handled world content and such. You could get so much done so much faster than in Everquest. It took MONTHS for everyone to finally warm up to it, and most of us only did *because* it was so much less time consuming and punishing than the others. WoW started as an MMO for the casual crowd, so it's so weird to see where its gone, over the years.
They absolutely implement overhauls such as AOE Cap and reaction to add-ons with MDI and RWF in mind.
MDI especially is there crowning achievement when they added the caveat where you can't duplicate classes and you must have five unique classes. Otherwise they know each party would be identical and be the best tank, best healer, and three exact copies of the same identical dps.
Aoe cap 😂😂
I just imagined, LFR as a solo experience, where you get to choose fill a 'role' in a fight mechanic, and the whole thing is a tutorial for normal. Ex: As a melee dps, you can choose to 'soak' puddles near boss, or go kill/CC an add, then you get told to avoid stuff in tutorial form. (Oh no, your raid member is being targeted by a meteor type skill, go help soak! and you watch as a bunch of bots go near him too and you get to experience how to play). No loot, just an achievement at the end and any associated cinematics.
Having this tutorial teach you about stuff to avoid, stuff to soak with others, or soak on your own would be great for the game.
TL;DR: Castle Pineapplia in the game.
Until you came to no loot I agreed with you, another problem is Blizzard would never use the resources needed to make it work but otherwise a Cool idea
Add a practice mode to the game. A side game where you collect adventurers who you take into scenario versions of raid bosses that are designed with prompts, arrows and icons on the ground that guide you and teach you how to do the mechanics of the encounter. The practice mode could award new adventurers, cosmetic rewards for your adventurers and things like pets, weapon illusions (like fire effects etc) and mounts for doing really well. Maybe even add the transmog appearance of the raid finder gear for getting all of the achievements.
This would be fantastic because it would offer players a much more forgiving and effective way to learn how to tank and heal.
I love this game. I've been playing it on and off for years but have never hit end game content. I got close with Shadowlands but working full time and being a parent makes it hard to be part of a guild and join raids. Plus, doing old expansions is basically impossible now.
being in a similair situation as you, but thinking about getting into it, what makes the old expansions impossible? I'd prolly try to go from in ordre as best i can
You should think about trying guild wars 2, it's been the easiest MMO for me to play casually, wow was just too much of a time commitment for me
Sure it's possible. I soloed every old expansion on retail.
So what? so fucking what if now you dont have time to play the game you clearly dont even like? also:
WoW is pro casual as fuck.
- There are tons of guides for everything
- Almost Entire community already knows what to do so you can go ask anyone for help
- There is LFR to beat the entire game in one run
I came back to wow after several years off. And the amount of grind that is necessary to catch up is kind of ridiculous this season. So much borrowed power catching up that it feels like a mini game inside the actual game. I have been doing mythic content for the first time in my career with with WoW and without disclosing it’s my first time doing it and have not really had any issues with mechanics. I just move out of the glowing area so I don’t die and boom. EzPz. (I have been back two weeks and average 2-3 hours a day playing so it’s trial and error baby)
I fully agree with having to level, I remember coming back to Neverwinter after they did the big class rework for all classes and I felt like I had an aneurism having to figure out all the abilities and the stat changes to have a fun set up again
Leveling alts in WoW is one of the main things that has kept me playing the game for the past several years. I do think that everything else should be account-wide such as reputations for example. I enjoy the leveling process now more than ever since it takes very little time. It's easy to level to the current expansion in less than 24 hours.
I love the level scaling because it allows you to level wherever you want. shadowlands prepatch was a BLAST
Why even have the re-leveling experience if its so fast? It just feels like another pointless chore obstructing fun at that point.
Ah yes, the backwards thinking of a typical WoW player. You really need to take a moment to listen to yourself.
You enjoy something more than ever because it now takes less time to do it 😂😂
@@matthewparker7909 "Typical WoW player?" That's funny. Compared to other MMOs I barely play WoW these days. I've been playing since 2004 and have experienced everything the game has to offer. Leveling alts has always been one of my favorite thing to do in the game since the old days. While I enjoyed the process when it took longer, given how many characters I end up leveling up during the course of an expansion, I like that I can do it more quickly. I liked reputation grinds in MoP more than ever because it took less time to do it once you were able to purchase the account-wide increase to reputation gained. Is that "backwards" thinking as well?
I love leveling alts and learning the spells individually too, super fun cause each has its own feel
Remember when the guy working on DBM almost had to shut it down so Blizz sent him a PC? That's because if he quits then they have no idea how to design combat without people using DBM in mind.
Do you remember the Darkmoon Faire event or the Midsummer Fire Festival event during TBC and WOTLK? I loved those! I didn't do a single dungeon or raid during these events because it was so much fun to play with those toys, solve the riddles and get the toys.
This is why I love Guild Wars 2. And that's also why it's the go-to game for casual players, mostly horizontal progression with "optional" vertical progression with expansions/living story content. Take a break of 5 years, you can come back and play the new thing if you want. And if you're more of an hardcore player, adjust your build/gear in 2 hours to match balance patches and you're good to join strikes/raids again, since no older content is ever obsolete.
Last week they released a challenge mode for the latest strike that took 5 ~17h days of high-end guilds tries for the world first, but you don't have to do it if you don't want to, you won't miss out since you can do the NM with just any pug and that's great.
7:10 Borderlands 2 has a similar system where once you beat the game on normal difficulty you can start a new character at level 30. The difference is that there's no challenge to starting the new character, you can just do it, but that sounds like a good middle ground.
tldr, huh, hmmm. i am rich, i skip the game, and buy the expansion beginner level. and thats okay, cause im rich, and anything past the beginner expansion level? well, i am pissed. but i agree, and ironically, disagree, at every other point. i give everyone one "gotcha moment" but only read the non gotchas, and ignore all the gotchas, but i also, have been since day 1, judge, and jury, on all and every single gotcha moments that i deem, judge, and jury, on all moments i deem gotcha moments, because quite simply, i got, got, but, am judge and jury, so i actually fundamentally, didn't get got, because, i judge, got rid of jury, and am only judge now, with no hair at all, deem this, banable from game and twitch all together, n64 power to life. rip
Just found your channel. I've never played WoW but love your recent videos. WoW has always interested me, but as time goes by it seems harder and harder to justify jumping into.
So many other great games, with just as deep mechanics and lore, with less pointless grinding and running around involved... it's hard to want to jump into a new game, especially when said game seems to (from the outside) not really want me to play it. Love your commentary, God bless.
I would like to expand on your comment a bit and say that an MMORPG is really only able to provide one thing that other games can't:
Social variety content.
No matter what specific content you're doing in your MMORPG, I guarantee you that you can get a better experience from a specialized game doing the same thing.
Like exploration? Play any Ubisoft game. Like exploring with friends? Play co-op. Like raiding? Play Monster Hunter. Need to do it with friends? Monster Hunter Online. I could keep going...
What an MMORPG can do that those competitors can't is provide an all-of-the-above approach and keep their content fresh through variety. Give you and your friends a different experience each time you log in. All WoW really offers its players is 3 things: Raiding, PvP, and Mythic+. Everything else is half-baked and abandoned, with no more than 2 years of development put into it.
This isn't true for any other of the big 5, as far as I know. They all do those three things and more.
Its crazy how the Eminem rap section flows so fucking well jesus
When I was playing WoW for the first time leveling a mage, I got kicked out of an LFD group for not polymorphing an ad. I then got messaged by 2 of the 4 other people on the group calling me a garbage shitter and to go play Fortnite. Really welcoming community.
@@masterpain7742 But it is becoming more common of an experience especially in LFR, LFG heroics and Mythic plus content.
Was lvling a pally, ppl mocked me for having an int Hammer instead of strength. I was lvl 20. Like gimme a break
I'm from Brazil, and despite the actual WoW situation and high price of subscription due to devaluation of our currency, I feel that many people still play for for, in a level mid core would say, they play with friends, old friends that still in WoW and have fun trying to do Mythic Dungeons.
I found this in Star Trek Online. I put about 100 hours in back when it was paid sub in 2009 or 2010. Loved it because of the grind. Went back in 2018, got or 19 and they made is super easy to get to end game and I spend 80 hours realizing I sucked and trying to understand why. Then gave up. But the story line and missions that they didn't cut were good.
WoW is just unplayable since BFA. Truely seems like Blizzard is trying their best to make the experience as bad as possible either for M+ tryhard players or casuals.
There's absolutly nothing enjoyable in this game atm and the lore is a joke.
Sadly it really went downhill after WOD. Atleast wod you had pvp and the vendors were simple no bs to get gear that was decent.
Wow is a great game. People are still playing it. No one cares about a bunch of brez sponges who want a participation trophy.
what's crazy is a causal player one that only plays 6 hours a week ? 12 ? 20? Maybe I'm wrong , but it feels like the body follows the head . Ion's an Elite Jerk from a guild called Elite Jerks and he only raids . so the game is focused around ION , that's how it seems to me . I could be wrong, but watching ION's interviews , that's what it seems like
I have though this too. Ion has ruined the game so he and his elitist buddies can keep bragging about how good they are at the game. Heres for all the elitist: Nobody cares about youre mythic curve achievement.
I play this game very causally, and love it. I don't raid or do any group play. I simply Solo. And love it. Casual friendly? Absolutely is.
dragonflight is the first expansion i've gone beyond heroic dungeons. I just got to 1900 m+ rating and I've just tried to learn from mistakes (I save clips of me dying, or team mates dying etc to catch the things i didnt see) and asking questions. I sort of hate the addon meta, but I love to create my own weakauras, it's very fun. Hitboxes in this game is fair almost always, but game clarity has a lot to improve on. There is a mix of intuitive and unintuitive mechanics.
I'm glad they have made talents as interchangeable as they are, I remember back in the days where I would literally go to lvl 30 without ever spending talent points because I was afraid to pick wrong.
gearing feels fair, i like how you can upgrade m+ pieces. im iffy about the cap without the ability to break old pieces down to get the valor back, i think I have wasted a lot of ilvl potential because I didn't know better. I'd assume the valor cap is made to slow down progress, allowing people to catch up, but im afraid to use it now without watching guides because of this. there is room for improvement.
How I would love to have bots in dungeon. I could go at my pace, not bothering anyone while learning the mechanics and still have a challenge. Then you join the heroic and you know what to do and you won't annoy people by not knowing the mechanic (or messing it up, since even if you look it up, it's your first time).
Man, I LOVE leveling characters. I do it over and over. I'm doing it right now, while watching this video. It's legit one of my fav things in the game.
No more lvs in the next expansion,and you will love it ..
@@classicandy5317 I may get used to it, I'm never going to shit on something I haven't tried but, I definitely will miss it.
Me too so fun!
yoooo wait that Rap God thing was actually so good lol, it was kinda on beat and everything.
Bro the Asmon rapping over the shady beat killed me. I had to watch it 3 times
I no longer play, but this is why I wish LFR was just a bit more challenging. I don't care so much about gear, I just want to enjoy a satisfying conclusion to the stories in the quest lines I enjoyed while levelling.
WRT the “game not respecting your time causes people to quit” point;
I gave up on Final Fantasy 11 for JUST that reason. Eventually came to WOW, played wrath till the end of cata.
FFXI did NOT respect your time in the slightest; some classes being gatekept from any content, 10% exp loss on death, deaths from glitches and connection issues, abysmal drop rates on required items, crappy fast-travel, group forming taking hours…
Eventually enough becomes enough and you quit for a competitor.
There's a lot of dogshit players that are hardcore players.
Grins bashfully
Holee shieeeeeeet, a gamur gurl!!!!!!! strip naked pl0xx
Used to be me when I played WoW. Got roasted all the time when I played a DH tank during 9.0
imagine no more addons and no more dmg meters! i would love it
No more rejections as a Warrior ❤️
Then there would only be a bunch of casuals, and the people who actually keep the game going would go elsewhere. End of wow.
Pay to win and pay to skip are very different. And the mage tower challenge is far from a bad idea. It could level you slowly, just way faster then the rest of the content, and just become increasingly difficult. More challenging mechanics with every couple of levels. That way when your character does level to endgame you know him very well.
as an ex-casual wow player, I kinda disagree.
I appreciated the adventure guide a lot. it told me what loot was dropped from specific dungeon and raid bosses but it also told me their abilities so I kinda could know the mechanics without ever having to alt-tab out.
I appreciated generic world content a lot, which gave me good loot without too much time invested. not "world quests" in and of itself but the cycling "eldritch/corrupted invaded zones" were cool and rewarding.
I appreciated LFR a lot as, even though it was hard in its own way it did allow me to see the end of the narrative.
I appreciated the legendary cloak content a lot. I could go through it single player mode at my own pace. it was very challenging but also very rewarding. it would've been nice if I wasn't forced to log in daily or w/e for it and could just save up and do a lot of attempts once a week but still. details.
I fucking LOVED how much easier it became to level alts and experience old content I never really got around to like legion artifact weapon quests and the associated class hubs.
maybe things got a lot worse for casuals in shadowlands. dunno. what I heard it sounded okay. probably would've enjoyed torghast a lot for one.
I just don't wanna support blizz anymore so I didn't buy it. I switched to FF14 which is also quite casual friendly. in its own way.
My husband got me playing during Covid as a stress relief. During that time when hours at work were iffy and we did some work from home I was able to have fun leveling up and learning my class but once I actually did that and got into shadowlands and got thru the intro or each world it just became this daily or weekly random little quests that turned me away. Honestly once work became normal again too I don’t have time to put into the game to really get anything exciting so the pull for me to return isn’t great. My husband and I have had multiple conversations about this. He’s a long time wow player (like since the OG release I believe) and I’m definitely casual. I think wow needs to do something for casual players and also for the longtime players that aren’t 16-18 years old and don’t play for a career. Most adults don’t have time to drop hrs and hrs into grinding anymore. A lot of wow’s main players grew up and have families and careers they have to give time to and the game has never rly made adjustments to facilitate that in my opinion.
They hate casual players. but they like the money of the casual players.
So glad I am enjoying FFXIV now. Even with the announcement coming I don't care. I gave up hope for WoW. I wish it well but just tired of wishing it was better.
100% call me when it's actually better and you can take my $180 a year.
I played this game for 1 week and quit after I realized its becoming a job
worst than a job. u paid for it and got nothing out of it, and wasted your precious time and probably your health too...
Smartest player
I have played Monster Hunter Rise for well over 300 hours and I still suck at it but I’m constantly watching all kinds of MH videos. From build guides,to lore videos and even challenge videos. I still love this wonderful game even though I struggle killing the weakest monsters.😂😂
Part of why I have stopped playing WoW (at least for now) is the constant chase for the ever shifting meta I was expected to keep up with. Not only did it drive me generally bonkers to have to change my gear, power bonus choices, rotations, etc. every other week; the constant push being put on me to eek out that last little 0.01% more DPS/HPS started wearing on my emotional health.
Also, I SUPER hate that in WoW it can easily happen that higher level gear can end up being significantly worse. This is a reason I came to loathe gear sets. I remember at the end of Legion there were specs that did significantly better wearing their ilvl 880 gear set than then ilvl 930 set.
They're never going to make it casual friendly because they want to prolong character progression so people have a motive to stay subscribed. It's not about the player, it's not about the game, it has and always will be about money.
And the funny thing is that its the reason why so many people have unsubscribed and quit the game.
End game progression is Mythic 5 mans and Raiding. Only a small number of players are skilled enough for this or enjoy it. It's also not fun to level a class then be told your class is not the META and screwed if you really want to do well.
@@TheTriforce100 The difference I see between Classic/BC, ect and recent expansions is the game is a lot more mobile now favoring classes that have quick casts and high mobility.
@@TheTriforce100 For Healers to be mobile to survive while keeping people up minimum casting time or other tools allowing mobility such as bubbles or HOTS had a clear advantage. Last time I played, Druids with their HOT's were clearly the META. If a DPS has to move to stay alive DPS goes down but people don't die.
@@TheTriforce100 Bottom line end game Wow is 5 man and raiding. Wow is harder now due a higher skill bar with the need need to move out of the bad shit while performing their role. Most people don't enjoy that which is why so many people quit soon after experiencing a new expansion. There a a lot of other reasons why Wow is only retaining the most hardcore players but this is one of them.
@@TheTriforce100 Thanks you have made your point that you think the game has no issues abundant. The player numbers would question that. Lets agree to disagree.
@@TheTriforce100 You continue to insult me, once more kid and I will report you. Enjoy your dog shit MMO with increasingly declining numbers for many more reasons than you are capable of understanding.
MMOs are not for me. They used to be fun, but I used to play Lineage2. I don't have that kind of time anymore.
it causes your not a kid anymore that a fact
I love WoW- been playing for more than half my life. But at any given time I have like so many things I wanna do. 6 games, 8 shows, 15 movies on my backlog, 3 books I've been meaning to read... paying 20 dollars a month to be stuck to playing WoW more than I want to or I'll be wasting my money/time/effort? Feels so dang BAD. When the first raid tier came out and I had to decide whether I wanted to spend my gold on a legendary item or another month, I decided to let my sub lapse instead. I'll always love WoW, but the quality of the content atm does not offset a dead guild and a dead server and a monthly pricetag.
Asmon describing what you have to do to raid was me trying to get back into the game at the end of WoD. I spent hours just trying to find a group and they fell apart at the first mistake.