@@sekirotelcoin3336 Yeah, i was not happy to get OS by a random hit or by a boss normal atk. This is my first time POE experience and i didn't follow a proper build, i made something by myself... Took me hours to find something ok tier (not op/broken) to really enjoy the game.
The game also makes it hard to learn. There's no combat log. It's hard to see debuffs and read text quickly enough when you're trying to avoid being one shot. Being opaque isn't a game design decision and I'll die in the hill
Yeah pause was amazing, if they provided a 10-5 second combat log it'd be glorious. They don't even necessarily need to record every bit of info, just if you were stunned, criticaled, debuff, and 5 most recent hits. That is hard to review in a replay in dense crowds.
If you take a Step back and know all modifiers, monster movesets and so on you should always be able to Tell what killed you and therefore you can be skilled enough to avoid those super dangerous things
@@arminkozek1921except the pace and number of monsters makes it impossible? I don't even know what monsters spawn in Breach due to the insane screen clutter during these encounters.
@@arminkozek1921 I understand. However, the things i mentioned (combat log, easier debuff clarity/text) would help people LEARN these things. I'm coming from the perspective of somebody who IS clearing juiced T15+ and did NOT play POE1.
I don't think most people would mind if it were a couple maps or even 3-4 maps. But once you reach 90-92, it can literally be 10+ maps to recover from 1 death effect you didn't notice in time. Or 1 bullshit encounter of a freezing monster (like those mfing ghosts).
The real problem is "Maps are boring". Run through a big maze for 6-7 minutes to find 4 rare bosses, and some of them are just around the corners we have walked pass. So, we run back for another 3 minutes to kill them all.
I actually have to agree with this. POE1's endgame map system was better over all. While I do think the quasi-delve mechanic is a cool idea, I hate how limiting it makes you feel when you had a basically sandbox endgame in POE1. Being "forced" to do something to "finish" a map feels terrible comparatively. And even not from a POE1 perspective, doubling back 3 times to find a rare feels really bad. I would prefer if it went back to the old "kill boss, finish map".
I think the main issue is that the punishment doesn't feel commensurate to the mistake that has been made. Sometimes I die for the silliest little thing, sometimes I don't even know why I died, but the punishment remains the same. Also, I think loosing all modifiers on death is too much, I think it could be better to only lose the ones you've interacted with, so I could be motivated to run the map again even if I lost once
I'm trying to reach lvl 90 on my invoker, and oh boy, it's a pain. You die, you lose exp. Do a few more maps, die again, rince and repeat. Now i understand why most players simply give up at around 90 and start a new character. The campaign is much much more fun, you don't get punished that bad (in standard or ssf mode) and it's a great learning curve. That being said, now when i fail a map due to some rediculous mechanic or some over the top damage( burning ground anyone ?) , i simply pop in a lvl 1 waystone without ANY modifiers and speed through the map to get it over with. Then i log off, go do something else and come back once i've cooled down and feel the need to play again. I can predict this though : if they keep the same things(mechanics/bad maps (filled with trees so you don't even see the mobs)) and the same punishment, then a lot of players will leave once they get bored with dying over and over again for mostly crappy loot. Loot that by the way either drops below the map (weird....) or fills your screen with so much clutter it aint fun anymore. p.s. The times i shouted FY can no longer be counted. Frustration galore.
This. 100%. The punishment is frustrating because most of the times it's undeserved. My last death: I open a breach and I'm half a second late in laying down the usual BS Spark carpet. A mob spawns on top of me and stuns me, adding to the delay. I'm forced to roll, but now I'm very late in laying down the aoe of doom. Two more mobs catch up to me and hit me and... I'm dead. Just like that. Total time, less than 2 seconds. This issue is born of power creep. In the end the PCs are so strong that only a massive amount of damage delivered in a very short amount of time can actually kill a character. And since the devs have made clear that "there must come a time when you have to feel powerful", the only avenue they left themselves to confront the player with actual danger is to rush damage onto the character before most normal human beings can react. It feels so unfair that sometimes gets infuriating. It's dishonest. And it's a kind of dishonesty that would not be needed if the devs stopped trying to cater to people with power fantasies and instead balanced the game around a slower and more careful pace.
Death is just too quick for the level of punishment involved. You need a reasonable buffer to not get 1 shot, but the only way to get that right now is ES, or abusing gemling to stack more hp than normal, and rely on instantly killing screens. It is a real turn off when the 3 minutes of "skilled" combat is simply clenching your asscheeks and hoping you don't get hit a single time. Makes me not want to do bossing until I can just pop the boss effortlessly. When it takes 5-10 hours of grinding to get a boss attempt, im not throwing that time down the drain just to be instantly spanked on the ass and sent to the corner for my audacity.
My only complaint about the punishments occurred yesterday. T17 delirium map. I was zooming and crashed. It was treated as a death. All the loot I left, the map bonuses, tower juice..... all gone. Because of a DC..... I smoked a cigarette and got back to it but it was a major *feels bad man* moment for sure
@qaztim11 yeah day 2 after launch was the only other DC I've had and it let me back in the ultimatum. I think if they treated a DC like that (and maybe removed the league mechanics but not the tower juice) itd be fine imho
Yea, they were supposed to pause the game on crashes. That doesn't seem to be the case, ive lost a few divs when breaches breach the 4th wall and straight up drag my latency to infinity because the server just took a taco bell dump. Every time I see a div disapear to that (since you just have to sit there and look at a frozen screen and all the goodies that are gone) it kills me inside.
Why do you feel you need to shop for items? I'm not even playing solo self found and I have 3 characters at end game. All above level 90, all capped res at 95%+ even chaos is at 70%. Can kill bosses in about 2 seconds and map clear speed is fast. I have not traded a single item. Just used the currency exchange to sell a divine for 145 ex and made all my own gear.
@@newworldforward1842 No its not. You can say that about a game like Last Epoch where you opt into solo self found it actually gives you extra luck buffs for better drops. Here you get nothing.
I play SSF on tradeleague. So you can use the currency exchange and then you can trade with someone in chat. I play on Xbox so i can’t really trade and it’s dumb I agree. They should add an ingame thing. Like maybe a specific zone attached to hideout that has an auction house
The opposite of the "no stakes, no joy in victory, no enjoyment" is "rising frustration, relief that it is finally over, dread of having to do it again in the future." Souls has former. PoE2 has the latter. There's a reason so many CC's have mentioned rage quitting. That's not normal. And sure, other parts of the game are good enough that they come back later, but how many won't be back? And as to character not good enough, that's an argument like the trade system... it's a cop out GGG uses as an excuse not to fix their broken designs. Typically, your character breezes through most of the content. But one particular combo of factors hoses you. For example, most of the "league mechanics" on maps are not well balanced compared to the rest of the map. And certain combos on maps negatively impact things, like having faster mobs with one of the already fast mobs that also happen to have the haste trait. If you can't one shot that, your typical ES build is dead. Yeah, I could play a cookie cutter OP build using a ton of high value gear bought with in-game currency I don't have... but should I need to research a ton of stuff outside of the game and improve my character through the auction house just so I can have fun? I mean, if I'm going to engage in the economy and "work" to do it, I might as well as work a double at my job and then buy that stuff for $$$. It'll take less time and reward better. But that's not why I play games.
Anyway, I think your idea sounds good, though I'd expand upon it slightly, also applying it somewhat to the other mechanics. Basically, as long as you haven't engaged the mechanic, it stays. Don't activate the mirror? It'll be there for you. Don't trigger the expedition? It doesn't go away. Don't do a ritual? They'll all be waiting for you. Only if you have started the thing and then die does it go poof. Basically, stop people from abusing death to restart it, but don't deprive people of the experience if they happen to die before starting it.
I disagree that stakes / punishment have value, the souls games have virtually negligible punishment for death, yet they're lauded as the pinicle of rewarding gameplay. A game doesn't need any punishment to be rewarding (infact punishements usually have the opposite effect) it need challenging fights, loosing stuff if you're defeated doesn't make winning any better, it just make loosing feel worse (and encourage players not to play).
@@matthewbentley1236 I wouldn't fully agree. Many people play on hardcore because stakes are very high, so they do matter. But it's not only a poe thing. They probably play it more like a roguelike rather than just soulslike. I also understand GGG not wanting the game to be a cookie clicker where you only progress faster and faster without any pushback from mistakes
You are 100% correct as far as my opinion is concerned. I know some folks love that feeling of overcoming adversity but I do that in by business every day. A game is a toy. I don't want toys that punch me in the nuts for messing up, that's what real life and my company customers are for.
@@Kuzka_ Sure but compounding punishments isn't helping. Its just making people frustrated. I agree with the op that punishment isn't needed to make it rewarding. But losing time is a punishment. Add to that losing xp losing map losing currency (rolling maps) losing drops ... Yeah it becomes a bit much.
Yin and Yang is how the universe functions. Without punishment there is no reward. Souls is punishing because you have to fight the same boss over and over.
@@gerbo8018 Ye ye, not saying that it should be a hardcore level of punishment. For me personally the problem is that the gameplay is not that fun, compared to poe1, but it's obviously about preferences. And since it's not that fun, my second monitor tends to take away some of my focus which results in deaths. I think *some* of the punishments could be taken away or changed and it wouldn't become a worse game
I have no issues with things being hard. What I have issues with is that when getting hit you have a very high likely hood of just getting one shot. I've played PoE 1 so being one shot is not new to me but they have made it so that unless you are playing super meta builds, or have found the gem in the ruff, that you will have a hard time. I think I can speak for allot of people when I say that getting just your 5-6 Ascendancy is more difficult than it has any right to be.
I had a hell of a time on my Infernalist in order to the the 3rd ascenscion points, but i managed to 1 shot the sekhema trials on my second character. Sekhema is hard gated due to your relics, just a couple of honor resist relics are a gamechanger, problem is that the good ones dont drop untill you are attempting your 3rd/4th ascenscion, since the idea of the trials is for you to run them multiple times to drop better relics and make it easier, the least they could do is make it so that you dont lose XP when you die in trials, or add in a relic merchant so player dont need to farm trials before actually having a chance to clear them. Dying on the 3rd/4th floor of sekhema or on the 7th-10th floor of chaos is already punishment enough, no reason to lose EXP, you are already losing up to 30min-1hour of progress.
7-8 is a galactic gap. That has absolutely no right to be damn near unachievable for the average player. It just propagates a "carry me" meta. I was able to get mine, but I'm not an average player my 800 hours is testament to that. The difficulty spike just going from trial 3 to 4 is absolutely disgusting, even the white mobs become bosses, especially if you got boned on boons.
@@jordanbauerly8843 its easy actually you just need good relics , i thought it was impossible now i can farm lvl 80 trial of sekhemma and kill the boss without geting hit. I can give you a little tip for the boss , when he does the 360 spin lightening spell where things on the ground appear , if you stand still in the bottom left corner you dont get hit and take no damage
Ironically, heavily punishing death leads to hyper speed dps only builds being the *only* thing that is viable, because it comes out to a net positive. Especially considering that the only good defensive layer 5k+ ES + grim feast (for 10k+ ES) is not available on all builds, even more restricting build viability. I understand 1 portal + loosing map mechanics and it's true that it "raises the stakes". But the repercussions lead to worse and worse gameplay.
The thing that finally made me quit was actually the interview, where Johathan said that the exp loss "keeping you in the place you're supposed to be". His exact words. That really pissed me off, because to me that meant that their approach to death is trying to waste as much of the players time as possible when you die rather than letting you slowly get stronger to overcome whatever killed you
if they have brain dead takes like that i'll wait for it to release instead of getting into the early access period. watch how it goes from here. nothing i despise more when it comes to gaming than devs adding stuff just to waste our time. this is only tied by crazy microtransactions that equate to buying a full price triple A game or quad A lol
@godlynewbie their shitty takes have to do with MTX as well. Waste enough of your time so you buy more. They won't make an auction house cause they want to force you to buy premium stash tabs.
Hitting the high end levels is a nice challenge it’s only a few extra passive points if you don’t hit cap and will be essentially maxed out in other aspects of the game.
I’m okay with everything except for losing XP as it’s a waste of my time. However, it’s the one-shot deaths that will cause me to drop this game for a while. There’s no way to avoid those deaths because most times I don’t see what killed me, so no time to react.
Im the opposite. I couldn't care less about the xp, I just want to keep doing the events (league mechanics, boss fights, mirrors, and breach) If i could just respawn like any normal arpg.. pick up my loot.. and finish clearing my map.. id be happy with everything in poe2. I dont play hardcore because I want a more casual feel..
Ggg leveling philosophy has always been about diminishing returns. There's a reason why we plan builds to only lvl 80. You aren't expected to lvl to 100, nor should you need to. Lvl 90 is basically my mark for a character complete. Beyond that is prestige.
In regards to building tonky vs glasscannon: It makes no sense to build defense in the current state of game. My Titan is 2/3 of atlas invested in def and dies just as easily in T15 as my glascannon casters but with 10% of clear and 20% of movespeed. So whats the point in building def?
I died more to random freeze from a white mod, two spears from beyond the visible area, or some ridiculous immortal yellow mob more than any map boss. There is something wrong with it. As long as those random deaths is the case, punishment should be tuned down. It's one or the other.
For me just get rid of the XP loss on death and make it so if I die on a boss give me a couple more tries before it is over. When I fought the Trialmaster for Trial of Chaos I died as I was learning the mechanics and then I had to go and get three more randomized fates to open the door again just to give it a second try... I took a week break from the game at that point.
I think people defending the end game are the ones benefiting from when broken builds were farming the end game and they were able to reap the rewards from getting HOWA and other op items. There's a clear gap and I truly believe the people saying it's fine have no idea what SSF or casual people feel because they traded their way to being over powered.
I steamroll t15s.. absolutely no problem killing everything without even stopping moving.. With that said, I HATE losing xp, items dropped, map, and the events that were on the map.. just because of 1 mess up.. I personally think that we shpuld keep the xp loss.. but do away with everything else.. Allow respawns BUT Dont respawn enemies on death like they do in the campaign..
But playing standard trade league and playing ssf is a choice? You chose to play that mode yourself and suddenly it's standard mode player's fault they thought it's easier for them on their endgame?
@@Nymerius87 That doesn't mean the game mode is good. This is still early access. SSF, and being a newb maybe shouldn't be as painful. It's not really good to point out it was a choice because people could just choose not to play. The worst choice for GGG is people choose to not play. In that sense you could also say it was GGG's choice to make players quit because of game design choices. "It was a choice" is probably nearly the lamest excuse from the perspective of spending money, and/or time.
Not true. I'm not using broken builds and enjoying the endgame just fine. Endgame is still better than anything else in this style of ARPG currently regardless of it's current issues.
I didn't find POE2 that punitive. In the late game, when you die you lose the map (waystone), the "events" of the map (breach or boss, for example) and 3% of xp. Yes, it's annoying to die and have to grind these resources again, and as the map is infinite you end up recovering the map events too, but in less than 3 hours it is possible to recover all this. In my opinion, the real problem is the repetitive grind and lack of buffs on the map. The late game needs more content, and considering that the game is in the alpha it is obvious that later on we will have more maps and more different events. I've played games where dying means losing months of progress and that makes us value the small achievements. If the grind is fun, people will keep playing regardless of the punishment.
I think when doing the atlas we should get a choice when we die, lose 10% exp and start the map again or brick the map but not both! That still keeps deaths meaning something but not SO punishing!
Game is mobile trash in it's state right now.. everything just designed to waste your time. Go play PoE, that is mainly designed without Tencent business model
I agree. The cost of meta is cosmic now. The sub-par gear even with the best optimized skill tree will lock you in T15 and lvl 90 at max. So, what's the point?
PoE 2 is getting there. The balancing needs a ton of work. As OmegaSybers originally thought that PoE 2 would be slower and more methodical combat vs PoE 1, he's finding out that vision was not entirely true. Not entirely true because your characters move at PoE 2 speeds, while the mobs are from PoE 1. I feel they should bring back the multi-portal defense because GGG almost rarely ever balances the game in proper time. Most players have passed on before GGG finally removed totems being mandatory for melee in PoE 1.
I agree, XP penalty cut in half. Right now it feels devestating to die in maps at high level, at half XP loss it would really suck, but it'll be manageable.
If your level 92+ you basically are forced to wait till you hit next level and are on less then 1% xp to do pinapple bosses or highly juiced dilerium maps as dying on softcore even, lead to so much XP penalties that you have to grind for several hours (92) to several days (95+) just to get your XP back! Imagine trying arbiter of ash on level 97 dying 6 times taking 60% experience loss... I would seriously go bonkers and ragequit. Some penalty sure alright makes reaching those levels something to be proud for but to take 50% of your level away at 95+ is too much...
@bananedc1 then scrap everything, give everyone immortality and all the item Shut the game down Make that the gold standard for every game and destroy video games entirely Since it means nothing 👍
@ sure removing the xp penalty is the same as destroying everythin in this game, what a pedantic elitist you are my dude x) also i would play d4 if they had some content to play, and i'm not paying the price of a full game for a dlc blizzard!
the need to drop XP punishment, it takes long enough after about 88-90 to go up a level, if you die you "feel" you are going backwards - I can accept the map losses etc but not XP
100% the opposite for me I couldn't care less about xp.. I enjoy the map mechanics, that's the part that bothers me to lose.. If I never see level 100 because I keep dying, fine because I'm not good enough to get to level 100.. But damn.. I wanted to fight that boss.. or that breach..
@ I mean that gear is everything and no one finds it. Everyone buys it. If you have 100 div you can make a one click build that annihilates everything. It's not about skill at all.
Losing your progress is not 'punishment' for failing, it's abuse. We've already lost enough of our time when we have to respawn back at another point whether it's the Campaign where bosses reset to full health, or you lose the entire map and any loot you missed out on, when you fail there? Losing XP on top is just typical GGG sadism. And then there's the Warrior and Armour.
bosses and mobs resetting is NOT an issue, lol. getting -10% xp on dying in a map, however, is one of the most retarded decisions i've seen in any game recently.
The scary thing is, this word 'abuse' is the exact right term. People in DA relationships are way too often known to defend their abusers, even after often being nearly killed by them and a lot of research has been put into why. The psychological effects of the abuse with the time and equivalent of "sunk cost" and the thing that draws people back to their abusers is exactly the same things that is going on with people wanting to leave PoE2 and then eventually coming back. Abusers know their victims will often come back because they end up blaming themselves. However, it is actual abuse, and it negatively impacts the rest of their lives, no matter how small the abuse. Even abuse in a video game will negatively impact the lives of the people who are impacted by it, and I am really appalled by how many people are engaging with this abusive behavior; and on top of the abusive behavior, actually doing menial work for GGG by spending dozens of hours just sitting around being manual trade bots. I would never have expected this level of deliberate psychological abuse to come out of a company from NZ. I have worked with a lot of NZ people in the past, and they have normally been really respectful and understanding that workers are people and have a good attitude towards people's health and mental well being. Traveling there has always been great. This sort of abusive behavior is completely unexpected.
@@BremSterGames oh my god, it's a fucking game targeted at a more hardcore audience. not a husband who comes home drunk and beats you. holy fuck youre delusional. log off
People don’t like being one shot. It’s just not fun. The game is designed in a way where both the damage you deal and receive is insane. They should tone down both. Even assuming you accept one shots on bosses, it’s just a general feel of being fragile when trash mobs you come across in maps also kill you instantly. Then you factor in dumb map modifiers you can’t even run with most builds. A more intelligent approach to difficulty would be through attrition. If your build can’t handle an encounter, you run out of life flasks and you die. This motivates the player to keep improving their builds and gear to reach a point they’d be able to beat that encounter. It’s not about adjusting the punishment. That’s just a bandaid to a fundamentally broken balance. I like the xp loss and map loss. What’s important is that I should feel like I deserved that punishment when I fail, not because some random mob one shot me in a map
For a game director that said "only bosses and pinnacle bosses should be able to one shot players" I still get readily 1 tapped on multiple of my characters. By white mobs in maps. Doryani Elites are the most recent ones to do it. Characters with over 5k effective health and max resists, or max resists with paper mache, otherwise known as Armour, with 3k HP. They really need to get over their incorrect mentality that Armour is fine and just needs tuning. Armour just needs to do what every other game in the universe does. Flat DR. No variable reductions.
1 shots are a hard target to hit. Tons and tons of people sacrifice defenses for damage and expect their 70% evasion to hold off all incoming damage, but they also expect that the one hit they do take shouldn't kill them and allow them to escape. It's an insane loop that doesn't make too much sense when breaking it down further than the general "1 shots suck." Do you really know if you should have survived the hit, or are you attempting content outside your power level? Or are you pushing content with 90% evasion and 1700 hp?
@ Most people's, I assume, baseline is when they get 1 shot by a white mob in a map, they're comparing it to all the other white mobs that don't 1 shot them in the same map. I did give a frame of reference for an example. Over 5K eHP for multiple characters with only one of them wearing paper mache (Armour) and with 3K HP, all with max resists. Even went so far as to name the White Mob that has one shot 2 of my characters recently through 5k eHP. Doryani's Elite. Evasion is not only unreliable, but not mentioned by myself or OP. Armour is paper mache because it only mitigates damage from smaller hits and gets progressively weaker the bigger hit you take. So it does exactly the opposite thing that you'd want armour to do. One of GGG's biggest issues is that only one source of defense is reliable right now, Energy Shield, since it makes your effective health significantly higher. The one person that dug into armour the most on RUclips was Kripparion, and his solution to armour was to use Energy Shield. I wish this was a joke. When this is your Defense system, it's no wonder people get 1 shot. Better yet, their last improvement to armour actually made a bigger difference to monsters than players, since the equation change to DR with Armour applies to monsters as well, causing a nerf to every player that does physical damage.
@ in a game where every build shoots for energy shield, you should have the objectivity to recognize and acknowledge defensive mechanics that need a tremendous amount of work.
@sol5916 I agree. GGG needs to make some massive changes to Armour and Evasion to give them viability that isn't "Just add Energy Shield." Because that's just reinforcing that they don't want three viable options for defense. Although I'll try to predict the future. They will nerf Energy shield like they did in PoE1 to make sure that every defense sucks, instead of making Armour or evasion good.
It doesn't make sense to me that in soft core you lose the waystone when you die. Basically you are playing softcore until endgame then suddenly you are forced into hardcore playstyle
Died in back to back maps at 87 level and just logged off, I don't even know what killed me the 2nd time. I just couldn't continue after that set back it just feels brutal. I since made a new characters and never playing that one again. The campaign is awesome and the progression feels great until End Game.
@@circaen I can handle the waystones the End game is just trash. The mechanics are poorly designed and punishment unfun. The only thing it's doing is making people stop playing. Maybe I wasn't clear above. Hopefully they can fix the End Game and overall progression soon. PoE 2 can eventually be a very good game, key word eventually.
When the endgame starts to feel like the only real danger are one-shots, it starts making any sort of defense feel almost worthless. Of course, we're all aware that having resistances and defense keeps you from getting whittled down as fast from enemy packs, but then getting one-tapped out of nowhere makes you think "why even bother with ANY defense if this thing can just bypass all that work". I'm okay with bosses, especially Pinnacles, having one-shots here or there, but they also need to be telegraphed enough that a player can still avoid it if they're paying attention.
The issue becomes, what is the standard set for defences, if its set to something too high that only giga try hard streamers and poe sweats can achieve than everyone will say its unfair, if its set to a level where casuals can build defences to not get oneshot then any mildly sweaty player will easily make a character that will be unkillable in any aspect of the game. Whats the solution?
I semi tilted and died 3 maps in a row 5 days ago on my 91 ranger and haven’t picked the game up since then because I am still frustrated I lost 30% xp which is like 10+ maps to get back and lost all that juiced work and exalts from maps
@@andrewjackson1915 10 maps????????? How on earth will you ever manage to play 10 maps?????? HOW???? DEAR GOD the game is becoming a scrubfest really fast. Why don't you all uninstall the game and let people that take 40 minutes to do 10 maps enjoy it??? Just gtfo and good riddance
@@harborwolf22 Yeah just dodge the invisible on death effects or corpse explosions from a mob 2 screens away when your entire screen is cluttered with nonsense vfx. What a retarded argument.
Or, how about ... he can just express his frustration without you gatekeeping a**holes chiming in with unsolicited "advice". xp loss is the worst mechanic ever in gaming history and yes, it was also pure cancer with D2 ... there was just no social media for people to complain on.
As many have pointed out, there is a fundamental problem with the XP loss - it means they can never focus on actually challenging encounters, unless their intent is you can only try those encounters immediately after levelling, which is equally terrible.
There are so many different problems with the game that made me stop playing and I won't be coming back until something major happens to fix them: -the economy has been wrecked and if you didn't get in on the archmage spark mf train early enough you are too far behind to participate in the economy -the duped items and uniques that were id'd and rolled back weren't removed so you can't trust any unidentified unique on the market -maps are every bit as rippy as poe1 eight mods but without the extra portals to mitigate the random unpredictable 1 shots -balance is so wildly out of whack it feels like they didn't even bother to do an internal playtest or the difference between armor, ES and evasion would have been blindingly obvious As it is I have put in double the hours and roughly the same amount of currency I would in a poe1 league but I don't feel powerful even though my gear should make me feel like I am. GGG seem to have this idea of what the players should want and its ruthless hardcore but effectively nobody plays ruthless and the vast majority of players don't want to play hardcore going by the markets, leaderboards ect. So they develop the game they think we should want instead of the game the players actually want and you get nemesis rares or kalandra league and instead of learning from the disasters like the poe1 team did the poe2 team made the same mistakes and some even worse ones. And also some totally obvious and basically unforgiveable stuff like the trial of chaos sekhema modifiers which are directly copied from poe1 without considering the difference in gameplay, especially mobility. It really does feel like wow where the internal teams don't have enough playskill to complete the content so they turn on cheats to 'simulate' what the players are capable of and you end up with things that can only be achieved because of it.
"GGG seem to have this idea of what the players should want and its ruthless hardcore but effectively nobody plays ruthless" I think this needs to be repeated more. A very small and very loud minority of people still hasn't evolved out of the need to flex, and they're making it everyone elses problem. Absolutely love the game, but im too old for that level of punishment. Somehow doubt that 17-year olds (which seems to be the target audience) will keep their game afloat
@@nemojotun1284 Some things never change man. Hardcore players have always been like this and always make it everyone elses problem. Just like i dont understand how any of these people enjoy the way they play They clearly dont understand that everyone else doesnt care for what they perceive as good and fun.
For me losing the map mechanics and xp loss are the worst! hands down. I'm a slow learner bc I dont have enough time to learn using third party software and guides and feels like an unorganic way of playing. Having the game punish me for learning the game feels awful and more like a gimmick. I find my friends are all using similar builds that they barely understand simply to keep up with meta and survive. I respec'd my character easily more than 30times and each time understanding the tree and nodes better BUT end game gets real boring bc dying means you're locked out of doing content. it's ridiculous and feels like gate keeping for people who have enough time to memorize so many damn items and skill tree combinations that break the game. if you dont break the game. you lose. period.
Welcome to poe. Took me 4k hours to be able to take my off meta meme build to ubers in poe1. But also keep in mind this is the worst version of the game. More skills more ascendencies and maybe you'll find something more your style. Sometimes a system just 'clicks'
You know what's more sad about this horrible punishment? people will find it so hard that they will rely on someone else build or will search for the most busted budget build possible they will not experiment on their own or make their own stuff they will just gonna find something that will fix those horrible bs punishments, and they don't actually get into the whole point of the game and some of them just quits the game
Agree with you m8 but there are folks like me who enjoy experimenting with the game, builds, gems, etc. Thats a large part of the enjoyment I get from it and won't ever look at a build guide.
I like your ideas, for the most part. Personally I think it's a little lax to always allow at least 2 tries on a map, but that should be an option when needed. This would be my approach: Waystones: On failing a map, return the waystone used, but at normal rarity with no modifiers. You can always alch orb it again to get new ones, and you're never left having to go back to lower levels after a failure. Success still uses up the waystone, but you got what you wanted out of it. Reduce the waystone drop chance modifiers a bit to compensate for the lack of lost waystones. Map modifier conditions: Lose one map condition at random per failure, not including the boss condition. Failure while fighting the boss only removes the boss condition. This serves as a penalty, but also as a bit of a handicap system, as the map will have become a bit easier for your next attempt, without making the map a complete waste of time right away. Portals: 6 portals, no changes to current system where dying once fails the map, but add possible modifier rolls to waystones that add an extra respawn. Save those up for risky maps and boss fights. This also gives you a new goal of rolling one of these waystone modifiers in prepration for a tough fight you may have unlocked but not feel ready for. Lost loot: After a map failure, replace the 6 blue portals with a single red portal that allows you to go back to the map one time to collect whatever you can carry. Monsters will be despawned. Exp loss: No change to exp loss amount, but instead of losing it permanently, add it to a pool of lost exp. Add possible waystone modifiers that grant a small percentage of your lost exp in addition to normal exp gains. This allows you to catch back up more and more quickly after entering a death spiral. The more you bank, the more returns you'll see from that small percentage, and extreme losses while you're still early-endgame and figuring out your build can be returned massively as your survivability improves, reducing the slog of leveling up in the high lvl 90's. As it's a percentage of a pool that decreases as you earn it back, you can never recover all of it, meaning a certain portion by level 100 is still technically lost, but how much that is will vary and doesn't feel like nearly as much of a loss. This was a system implemented after the community revolted about exp loss on death by an old MMO I used to play, Anarchy Online, and it worked great and appeased most players. With these changes, losing exp is a setback, but not a total loss, and entering a death spiral then playing a waystone with good exp recovery+exp gain will feel sooo satisfying as your level shoots back up. This also serves as an incentive to keep playing and catch back up instead of feeling the weight of that loss and resigning for the play session. Failing a map loses some of the benefits, including those from your waystone and one of the conditions, but you're not back to square one unless you fail multiple attempts, and if you do play a riskier map, you can bring a waystone with an extra respawn just in case. I wouldn't allow more than one additional respawn, personally. 6 feels excessive. If I die on the same map 6 times, especially as it is now where it has no modifiers after a failure, you may as well take everything away. I don't deserve it anyway, haha. Pre-patch, I would have 100% agreed with your concept of never removing bosses, but the overseer tablets and increased boss spawn chance seems to have done wonders for my atlas. Can't speak for others but I have no shortage of bosses to fight now so I'm not terribly worried about it anymore.
This has been something games have struggled with forever. I personally think too many people are caught up in the idea that punishment equates to difficulty. Losing experience, items, progress... whatever makes losing 'have consequences' and therefore increases the difficulty of the game. Except it doesn't. If we play checkers and every time you lose a game you get punched in the face it doesn't make checkers more difficult, it just makes losing painful. It's weird to me that there seemed to be a very concerted effort to appeal to a broader audience and make the game more accessible in so many ways but at the same time they upped the punishments and painful parts of the game through the roof. Not progressing is already a big punishment and in endgame you're not just not progressing but also losing resources invested when you fail. Making it easier for that failure to happen and then dumping even more pain on top of it sure seems excessive to a lot of people.
GGG doesn't seem to be very big on encouraging players to be social for such a heavily MMO style game. Playing in groups and having couch coop in the campaign is encouraged by allowing you to revive your allies, and that is completely gone in endgame. Allow people to revive in endgame with no repeated Exp loss on death. This encourages people to play together again. Rather than encouraging solo play as GGG seems to always focus on.
In end game the bonus for having multiple people, is you get the keep the map and loot when someone dies, allowing you to still complete it as a group. Persumably, your group isn't just a few Random klepto dicks, and you share the goods around when they drop. I don't group up with someone a second time that takes the pure klepto route and just pockets everything while the fighting is still going on.
First, it's not an MMO at all. Second if they allowed what you are saying solo players would just quit because they would soon fall so far behind group players they couldn't afford to trade.
@WatchingFromWork6636 Massively Multiplayer Online... they have servers with thousands of players on them at once, able to interact with each other. Kind of textbook MMO. Also, if you were playing couch coop with a friend/roommate/SO and you get to endgame do you think it's suddenly better that they make the game worse to play cooperatively? That's a confusing perspective. If this wasn't intended, the entire game would be just SSF and they wouldn't have invested time into couch coop for both consoles and PC. It'd be a single player to a device. Besides, he asked for ideas. This was one that sprang to mind. I think encouraging player interaction in an online game, MMO or otherwise, with a built in couch coop system makes tons of sense. Anything else would be antithetical to the core aspect of it being online.
Definitely needs to be a coop pass at some point, its sort of a bolt-on feature, really hard to find each-other, ending up playing in the wrong instances, just needs some time and effort at some point.
@ no because you want co-op players to have a distinct advantage. That’s the problem. If that happens the economy is broke beyond repair because co-op can basically Zerg the game and solo has one chance and done. Now you see the issue? You kill the solo player given trade is so needed currently. Also just because a lot of people play online doesn’t make it an MMO. It has very few features of a true MMO. It’s an online multiplayer game, huge difference than an MMO. May sound the same but it’s not. StarCraft is an online multiplayer game. It’s also not an MMO.
Expierence loss is the biggest pain point I think they should remove from death. Leveling is a way to help you progress your power. Doing more damage can often improve your defenses in the sense that if you kill fast enough you won’t get hit as much. Halting your ability to level basically makes the only way for you to progress power in the endgame is by getting a nice drop or finding a bunch of divines to help trade.
That is kind of the point. They wan't to keep you checked in, and unlike poe 1, the last 10 skill points aren't quite as valuable. No amount of points/levels are going to save you from not meeting the gear checks. If they added more defensive options to the tree, that might change. Level 90 is about max level, and 100 is a trophy.
I agree 100% with needing more defensive passives on the tree. The current system of gear checking is making players drop down to lower tier maps and that doesn’t feel good. I don’t necessarily disagree with the concept on paper but if something doesn’t feel good then there is probably a better approach. I think they mentioned changing the difficulty ramping during the tavern talk interview and that would make this experience loss argument moot.
I think the only death penalty should be losing your waystone - not losing map mechanics, not xp, etc just making you spend another waystone if you die is good enough I think
GGG designed themselves into a corner with the new Atlas. Jonathan himself said they'd like to maintain the content on the node, but it would cause abuse cases (because of how they've designed the Atlas). We had a wonderfully designed and iterated Atlas in the first game they could have simply used, or used until they came up with something better, instead of something monumentally worse.
@@Alias_Fakename that is BS ... in PoE1 the BASIC of atlas is to make the mechanic you want to spawn in every map you do ... what they want to keep is TIME WASTING of players having to run basically empty maps just to get to the mechanic they actually want to run which is HORRIBLE design
@iluvatarchem i use all my currency to craft gear, it rarely happens that i find an item that needs no further adjustment, still the results are random and it takes time to get the gear you want, so wrong guess but no worries
@Swabian90 I'm running all six characters through to end game at the same time on SSF. Which helps in a way but at the same time kind of hinders you. Unless of course , you're willing to armor swap , which i'm not. You are very correct sir, It definitely takes time.
@Swabian90 m8 Didn't you just said that gearing is hard in SSF? If so, you are a scrub by default. Nothing you say matters on this, be it imaginary optimised crafting or optimised farming. You do neither of these things so why are you even answering to me? I've never had any problems in SSF in this or in POE1. Sure it takes a lot more time but you end up destroying any content. SSF is meant for experienced players, not clueless crybabies, and these players are not on utube/reddit complaining about death penalties and bad rng. These players are busy grinding. Now, gtfo
The worst is when you’re playing with a group of your friends and if someone dies, well…. now they can’t play with you until the map is cleared and a new one started. Or if everyone dies. Either way, a new map has to be started before you can play with your friends again. That just feels terrible. While I do agree that there should be punishment for dying, the way it is set up now just feels bad. The 1 and done part of it needs to be reworked across the board. It’s turning players off and one of the biggest reasons people aren’t coming back.
They say they want death to show you aren't strong enough to progress but then the punishment for death ensure you can not become stronger. Doesnt make sense in my opinion. Remove exp loss
The biggest change should be the exp loss. In essence you are gaining experience irl from the death, a person should be learning why they died and change their gameplay/strategy.
I just cannot get behind the stance of, “there has to be a punishment for dying” that everyone so vehemently defends. Yes other games have punishment mechanics, but they are just not as severe as POE 2. If you’re level 90 plus and die… you legitimately lose HOURS of time. That’s just not a fun gameplay loop.
You say you lose hours of time, but what is the reward you were working towards? 1% more DPS? Bullshit deaths should be reduced but if your build isnt strong enough (or you're not good enough) to push to a high level ,you're really not missing anything by not getting there
@@whysoslow1999 I'm working towards being able to play the game... If I blink against a citadel boss map and some barely visible on death effect kills me before I get to the boss... the map is just gone. That feels like shit. Don't sit here and pretend POE has any level of skill involved. You just stat check the game or the game stat checks you. Most builds you legit click one button. Again, I will not understand why people like you like your time wasted any more than it has to be on this game.
@@EaglesOps24 It's hilarious to me the people that think there is skill in PoE when it's just as you said. Stat checks. Follow the right build and you're fine. Try to have fun and do different things and you're f*cked. There is no skill .. there is only build. Even dodge rolling becomes meaningless once you have enough move speed and DPS clear speed.
@ Exactly. This is a game that mostly rewards how MUCH you play, not how WELL you play. So, your punishment is basically deleting multiple hours of gameplay. If punishments are tied to skill, then I'm all for it but they just aren't right now.
I like your ideas a lot, nice smooth introduction to end game that doesn't change anything for their vision really and I think 1 death should improve things dramatically for those bs one shot moments
I’ve been literally thinking the same thing! I never understood why people always argued for 1 or 6 portals when there could be a progressive path involving, both relative to the waystones tier.
Not only should they refund us our waystone or boss key if we die. They should give us 1% exp to ensure we still get progress even though we die. There should also be a guaranteed drop of the rarest item the boss can drop after dying a certain amount.
Such heavy punishment does nothing but pigeon hole players into the meta. Why play anything sub optimal or progress in any other way that isnt the most optimal if you loose so much for deaths. This is why the goal is to one shot bosses rather then learn them, the risk of even seeing a boss mechanic is too high.
I can't imagine being that player with the mirror on the ground. I would immediately play the super soft core mode. I finally after over 200 hours found an Audience with the King and deferred it. My worst nightmare (currently) is dying before being able to defer it again and losing it completely. That one item would double my current wealth. I would be crushed to lose it.
At level 95, one death literally costs hours of experience points. XP takes FOREVER at that level. I suggest instead of losing XP, we instead gain a 0.5% buff to XP gain for every map we complete, and we lose that on death. So instead of actually losing our progress, we just lose the streaking buff.
There’s already a hardcore mode. Losing XP forces your character to plateau. When you hit high 80s low 90s experience already slows to a crawl, if you’re forced to do lower level content you would just never level up and the game would become boring and repetitive if you can’t progress. Maintaining xp with dying will at least allow you to level eventually.
Play better. Get better gear. Reaching max level is not a requirement. You want a game where everything is easier and you are celebrated for doing the most basic function you can go play D4. Poe1 has always had the xp death punishment and everyone appreciates that mechanic.
@@TheHollowBlade Better gear and higher value currency is gated behind higher tier maps. XP loss on death actually forces you to do the more basic lower-level maps for longer time. That is boring. Let the players get the better gear while slowly leveling up to feel some sense of progress instead of the yo-yo ing of gaining XP over several maps and then losing it to a possibly unfair death. If you want all of the map XP awarded at the end of completion, that's fine, but once earned, I should be allowed to keep all of it.
@@rajendra82a you dont have to be level 100 to clear higher end content. You can indeed clear t15 maps at level 85. I get what you are saying, but being level 80 vs 85 likely isnt what is gatekeeping you from clearing harder content, its either your gear or build. And if its not either of those then its your skill level. And honestly i doubt its your skill level. I also want to note that when a league starts and the sweats take off, they dont complain about losing xp, or gear being too hard to get. They trade their way to good gear and smash, those who play ssf just get the good gear and smash. With your logic this would mean no one would ever be able to complete higher tier content since it would be impossible to achieve. Good players can be blasting maps1-2 days after the launch of a new season and killing uber bosses before the end of the week. Sure they spend 20 hours a day grinding, but if they can achieve that in a week you should be able to do it too with or without xp loss on death.
@@TheHollowBlade You are absolutely correct, level 100 isn’t necessarily needed to clear anything. There is absolutely no reason to artificially hold it back by taking away XP on death then. It is just a sadistic mechanic that makes players feel worse and rage quit why have it in the game if getting to max level is a goal people may like to have? If unskilled players slowly get there what exactly are the good players losing?
1. When you fail the map, the map is "completed" meaning you can move forward in the atlas. I think a lot of people's negativity comes from having to being force to re-do de map that was failed (double stab) 2. I enjoy the 1 portal map experience, but I understand the player base feelings. My idea is have 3 portals on all, still think that experience penalty serves a purpose of "you shouldn't go higher level because you don't have the necessary gear/build". 3. FUCK ON-DEATH EFFECTS!
The end game is still in development from what ive seen. The 1 death wipe is absurd especially when you lose 10% which really can set you back in later levels. Something has to give with the punishments vs rewards. Crafting truly needs a face lift imo. I don't have a solution to crafting that wont piss off 1 side or the other. Whether that is more currency drops or just making crafting more predictable idk? But 150div for a good weapon or armor piece is out of reach for probably 90% of the player base and i imagine when the full releasr comes it wont change a bit
I'm not sure how easily it could by done, if at all, but dying in a map could maybe leave you with ONE last portal so you can go in and get the loot / finish the map. However, upon death it takes away the chance to gain any experience for the rest of that map. So you still get the XP Penalty from dying but have a chance to jump back in for loot / completion without gaining any experience on your last try (portal). That could be a happy middle ground? That along with multiple portals for pinnacle bosses and I think not much else would need to change personally. I love the difficulty of the game overall but losing maps / loot from one death can be somewhat annoying. That being said, once 1.0 releases I'll be playing HC SSF anyways so this is all just practice time for me at the moment! Once again, great video my fellow Exile!
@Madara785 orb of annulment works on all items other than uniques and it only removes 1 mod randomly. They exist in poe1. An orb of scouring takes any non unique item and returns it back to its white base.
The lack of scouring/alterations gives value to base items (white Stellar Amulets = 25ex) and makes them an actual "interesting" drop. Less clicking orbs, more killing monsters.
I'm so with you on that, but we're talking about ggg, they always go double on their punishments or nerfs, it's been like that in poe1 and i don't see it changing in poe2, which is a shame because i would try so many more build that aren't gigatanks if that penalty was gone...
If they're going to keep the 10% exp loss they could implement a mechanic which allows you to regain it all (or most of it) if you clear the next map you open, provided it is of the same or higher tier and rarity, perhaps through a deterministic drop of a quest item (something like a book of experience)
I suffer the random crashes the devs described as an NVIDIA related issue and sometimes I lose my map and sometimes I don’t. Having to navigate endgame with compounding punishment is enough without losing carefully planned maps to technical issue. For a softcore league endgame feels fairly hardcore.
the only thing im annoyed about is that i have to redo the maps when i die i dont care about xp loss loot loss or anything, but have to redo the map is damn annoying
Biggest issue with punishment during end game is lack of clarity towards what went wrong, the fact that i have to go back to clip of death and frame by frame to figure out what one shot me....
@@wsad1337 It is a suggestion. Do you really think a 2 sentence statement is my entire takeaway or are you one of those who immediately jump to the worst possible interpretation of everything they read? I played POE1 and came into POE2 with the expectation that I would never have a level 100 character. My highest in POE1 is 97. Many new players will expect to reach max level because their expectations are formed from previous games that are not POE1. A lot of anger can be assuaged by the game setting player expectations from the beginning.
@@davidreese5730 Or you could be content with less than max level. None of the content requires max level. It isn't needed, it's just something people want.
The problem with punishment for failure is players will seek to avoid that punishment. That results in a smaller number of viable builds to be played because people will gravitate towards more meta builds to avoid punishment and that basket of meta builds will shrink as the content becomes more punishing.
Is that what was happening last night? Server lag seemed bad too. That's the worst way to die for me. There's lag, and next thing I know I'm pushed in a corner getting pounded by mobs and can't do anything.
It's great that you bring this up for discussion because I've felt the same way. How great that there are so many different opinions and we can have a lot in common too
Just because there are harder modes doesn't mean that the base game shouldn't be challenging. If they make endgame punishments less severe, the only thing I would be okay with is an implicit on waystones that says "stability" and can roll 1-6. And the only reason I'm okay with that is because it adds another dynamic to the game And I'd like that implicit to be weighted in a way that 1 is more common and 6 is less common. And don't forget, part of the issues are people getting ahead of themselves and trying content they aren't ready for yet. If someone is dying so much it's angering them, they ALWAYS have the opportunity to turn the difficulty down by doing a lower tier map and gearing up and leveling up more.
Just breaking. Game needs to retain players, who like rewards and hate punishment. That's why people play a game, which is supposed to be fun, and not a chore. More to follow with additional details about the ratio of elitist snobs and regular players.
Love your idea. I think explaining how it works to the casual player base would be something they struggle with. But if they had a decent onboarding process for how the portals work as you progress that would be great.
The way the system currently is theres no way to make the endgame interesting at all to me. The only viable way to play is with the map bosses at a difficulty level where you always get em in 1 try. And that's boring af, theyre not bosses at that point its just a fat trash mob...... mainly at the start of endgame if you push your waystones up to a point where the bosses are actually interesting. You're inting. The 2 systems are fully working against each other in a no fun allowed kinda way.
actually your take on how many portals you get from white/yellow/red waystones was very good. and also the take on when things like map bosses or breaches arent done yet and you die that they will stay until done.
I think an interesting solution would be to revert to the 6 portal system while also removing rarity from gear. Then allow players to sacrifice respawns for 30% iir each. That'd get people that are comfortable with handling a 1 portal back to the rarity software and allow everyone to just gear for character power. When you are feeling immortal, take away a portal for more drops. Then you always feel like you're in control of your risk/reward and don't have to feel like you sacrifice power for loot. Also you'd still have the option to increase your respawns on maps you're unwilling to fail.
I don't think you mentioned that you cannot re-attempt a citadel if you fail it. I cannot reopen it with a new waystone, I have to find another citadel. Also I think they could scale the number of allowable deaths per area depending on the difficulty.
remove the xp penalty. i hate it in poe1 and i hate it in poe2. there is a reason why mmo's stopped putting xp loss in as a death penalty, because it fucking sucks.
On death effects are uneeded 90's game design to punish people. It's just not good design, it's not fun. There should be relief after you kill a mob/rare not anxiety while you try to pick up the loot.
1 thing I NEED in the game is combat log. I need to know what killed me so I can understand where I messed up or where I'm weak so I can fix it. Without combat log, 100 things going off at once and me dying to 1 of those things doesn't tell me anything.
Make resistances add a '% of x damage taken over x seconds' with both amount of damage taken and the time it's dispersed over scaling with capped resistance. This would improve player-TTK and incentivize further defensive investment.
I think most players care more about the difficulty curve, than the actual hardest difficulty. So maybe, a bunch of resurrects for low level maps, and then no resurrects at the highest levels. That said, if they're really going to have a 0 resurrect mode, there can be absolutely zero "bullshit" insta-kill mechanics.
Here’s my idea for "on death's effects": They shouldn't kill you (Or only a specific type of "on death" effects). Instead, they should be able to reduce your health to 10%, 5% (or maybe even 1 HP?), block life regeneration for 3 seconds, and so on-but they should never be capable of outright killing your character. These effects could freeze you, slow you down, or apply some sort of curse that makes you extremely vulnerable to damage-even from regular mobs (practically guaranteeing a one-shot in such cases). Alternatively, if you're not careful, something like burning ground on the map could finish the job. What are the benefits of this approach, in my opinion? The dopamine rush from avoiding death: Think back to all those moments when you were on the verge of dying but managed to survive-that feeling is amazing. With this change, such moments would happen more often. A better sense of what killed you: Currently, you often die to an effect you can't really see or understand (this just happened to my character, which is why I'm writing this long comment,...). Maintaining the mechanic GGG insists on: This wouldn’t completely remove the "on death" effects that GGG seems so attached to-and they likely won’t change that anyway. Improved balance between tension and downtime: It would create a better balance between moments of action/pressure and relaxing phases like looting. Right now, even after killing all the mobs, I still have to stay on high alert to avoid dying, which can just be exhausting
I'm for having some stakes and reasonable consequences when you die in a game like this. But they really did a terrible job transitioning from campaign to endgame, I don't really care if you're a God gamer and disagree.. It's just a fact, it isnt an opinion. The absolute jarring shift in gameplay was enough but the punishment for dying added on top of it is such a questionable design decision. Throughout the entire 40 hour campaign death was such a minor thing, and then all of a sudden without warning you lose basically everything. XP, map mechanic, waystone, tower buffs, dropped loot, your TIME.. fuck what else? There's likely more.. It's to much to deal with, especially for players Iike myself who don't really enjoy hardcore, or game modes that overly waste your time investment. They need to step it back and make it less punishing initially, while introducing the endgame mechanics to people who don't know or understand them yet. Maybe add another passive tree to increase the consequences of death while granting bonuses for choosing to run those nodes. Right now If you die alot and can't engage with the maps then you're not gona learn, or want to learn.. And it's a problem they simply can't ignore or double down on because people absolutely WILL stop playing and never look back. I have faith in them though, I believe they'll get it right so as of now I'm not taking the endgame overly serious, just trying to dabble and enjoy it for what it is currently.
Agree, i cant wait for all the complaints to turn this game into d4 where it will provide you everything you need for free and ensure that you are never an upset little baby. Hold daddy d4s hand, we will ensure you never have to face any hardship. You are not meant to reach max level. I been playing poe since 2013 and never once had a character reach max level. You can become a god slayer without reaching max level. Also if you are dying so much to the point where you cant experience any mechanics or figure them out at a fundamental level is 100% a you problem.. not sure what you are doing wrong but if your experience is that bad maybe poe aint for you.
@TheHollowBlade I don't believe I mentioned anything about reaching max level.. I'm not personally dying constantly but I'm on the forums a nice bit and alot of people cannot progress throughout the game or learn it's mechanics because the endgame is not well tuned.. At all. Defend it all you want, when white trash mobs are scarier then map bosses then something is obviously not right.. Especially considering the bosses in the campaign were pretty lengthy, challenging fights. Where as in endgame early tiers you barely have to think and they die in 30 seconds.. Meanwhile 1 or 2 chaos shots or fuckin on death effects or those poison spitting serpents deal INSANE amounts of damage and are beyond overtuned compared to the campaign end areas. Also I can't take you serious, anyone who says "you're not supposed to reach max level" and thinks that's a good point for defending game mechanics and design decisions is delusional. It's the same way in classic D2 lod.. As much as I love that game It doesn't make it good.. having to kill the same 2 or 3 bosses 4000 times just to reach level 99 is stupid. But that's beside the point.. No one's asking or cares about that.. This is about not losing like 10 fucking things from dying one time. And smoothing out the early endgame to be more comparable to the 40 hour campaign that precedes it. You can stay in your little fantasy land where the game is perfect and no one gives any feedback to improve it. Write GGG and tell them to give you your own private server where it'll never be updated or patched again so you can enjoy it forever if it's such a perfect game. Fucking PoE community is full of morons.. I swear I've heard more the you say " I've played 10 years and never beat this or never reached max level". Like it's some sort of great accomplishment having NOT achieved something lmao.
I think I only have 2 comments on the end game right now and one was helped out a ton by the ability to change the rune stone or soul core in sockets in that its really hard to keep all the defensive layer balanced and try to plug one last hole such as ailment threshold and stun threshhold. With regard to other end game mechanics I would say that the only change I'd like to see is rather than closing the entire map instance on death just remove all the mobs and content from the map but allow the remaining portals to be used for picking up loot. This change would keep the idea that the goal is to complete maps without dying but it would also let players interact with things like Breach and try to push their character limits without losing the benefits of being able to do most of them but occasionally die to a bad siutation. Breach is a good example as it also represents a situation where looting during them is counter to the idea of how they work and is a really good way to die. I think its also important when talking about PoE 2 specifically to be careful about talking about more portals versus the respawn system they introduced for pinnacle bosses. You have the same number of portals in PoE 2 as you have in PoE 1 they just disappear if you die. A group of 6 going into a map in PoE 2 is exactly the same as a group of 6 going into a map in PoE 1 so the idea of more portals is not accurate. After thought, I also think a huge part of the end game being to punishing is players desire to push as high as they can as fast as they can whether they are ready or not. Even in PoE 1 most players have learned that you start with a character that is good at map clearing and then farm T1 maps to afford gear to run juiced T16 maps or to gear a character that can farm bosses. With all the new players in PoE 2 they think that if they can access it they can do it and the fact is that neither PoE 1 or PoE 2 are built that way. Players need to slow down and realize that just cause they have something of a higher tier it doesn't mean their character is ready for it.
I think a good way to balance the concept of portals in the maps would be as follows, basically the player will have the portals, but every time he dies, he loses one, plus the map benefits are reduced by 25% for every death, which makes dying still punishing because now there will be 25% less loot and so on and so forth, 25%~50%~75%~100%, just like in Monster Hunter, when a hunter faints out several times, he gets practically nothing at the end of the hunt, this makes the player take full responsibility for his progress and control over it, encouraging him to be more careful but keeping the most important thing in a video game, the fun.
They just need to add 2 things. 1) They need to add a ‘chase-item’ (that’s difficult to acquire) that gives us 1 free Revive (Group play) or 1 free Resurrect (Solo play) in Maps. 2) They need to let us know what killed us - so we can decide if we can deal with it, or if we need to bounce and make adjustments before losing everything on our next death in that Map.
Since you implored I'll leave my opinion before seeing the rest of the vid. There is one large change they need to make imo: Change the loss of the map on death to the loss of the map after all portals are used up. This not only greatly lessens the punishment but also forces player choice as well, since your "lives" for the map are tied to your ability to leave and drop off loot you are being forced to sacrifice those lives for the loot, and you make your loot choices more meaningful when low on "lives". This is hands down the biggest and most impactful change they can make to the mapping system.
I agree with your analysis - your approach to the endgame punishment is very sensible and would be a big W for the game. At minimum, there should be more portals and only XP loss for the map you fail.
I'd like for special bonuses on the map node to progressively decrease or disappear on failure, so that if you keep failing it's a blank node, but one failure only gets rids of one of the mechanics or juiciness you spent so long putting on it via tablets.
I Uninstalled the game x5 times, i installed the game 5x times.
I hate this game, it's awesome.
Haha I felt like quiting at least 5 times but I always get that next power increase game is super fun when ur build is working really well
So did I, but only because it fixes the fog of war bug lol.
You people need therapy
@@sekirotelcoin3336 Yeah, i was not happy to get OS by a random hit or by a boss normal atk.
This is my first time POE experience and i didn't follow a proper build, i made something by myself... Took me hours to find something ok tier (not op/broken) to really enjoy the game.
I am currently on my 4th uninstall streak hoping to comeback when economy resets
The game also makes it hard to learn. There's no combat log. It's hard to see debuffs and read text quickly enough when you're trying to avoid being one shot. Being opaque isn't a game design decision and I'll die in the hill
Yeah pause was amazing, if they provided a 10-5 second combat log it'd be glorious. They don't even necessarily need to record every bit of info, just if you were stunned, criticaled, debuff, and 5 most recent hits. That is hard to review in a replay in dense crowds.
If you take a Step back and know all modifiers, monster movesets and so on you should always be able to Tell what killed you and therefore you can be skilled enough to avoid those super dangerous things
@@arminkozek1921except the pace and number of monsters makes it impossible? I don't even know what monsters spawn in Breach due to the insane screen clutter during these encounters.
@ it is obviously possible, Look at hc characters…
@@arminkozek1921 I understand. However, the things i mentioned (combat log, easier debuff clarity/text) would help people LEARN these things. I'm coming from the perspective of somebody who IS clearing juiced T15+ and did NOT play POE1.
Damn losing only the xp you gained from the map you died in is actually a fire compromise
I don't think most people would mind if it were a couple maps or even 3-4 maps. But once you reach 90-92, it can literally be 10+ maps to recover from 1 death effect you didn't notice in time. Or 1 bullshit encounter of a freezing monster (like those mfing ghosts).
@@jordanbauerly8843I hate those mfing ghosts
Honestly, skip the EXP L and make us lose the node entirely on death and I’ll be happy 😂
@@Needs_Tzel yeah that would be best but we have to give ggg something haha
@@Needs_Tzel 100% agree. It’s annoying. Depending on trading to max out your character kind sucks too but on a lesser level lol
The real problem is "Maps are boring". Run through a big maze for 6-7 minutes to find 4 rare bosses, and some of them are just around the corners we have walked pass. So, we run back for another 3 minutes to kill them all.
You may hate me for saying that, but enjoyed D3 endgame more than this.
I actually have to agree with this. POE1's endgame map system was better over all. While I do think the quasi-delve mechanic is a cool idea, I hate how limiting it makes you feel when you had a basically sandbox endgame in POE1. Being "forced" to do something to "finish" a map feels terrible comparatively.
And even not from a POE1 perspective, doubling back 3 times to find a rare feels really bad. I would prefer if it went back to the old "kill boss, finish map".
I think the main issue is that the punishment doesn't feel commensurate to the mistake that has been made. Sometimes I die for the silliest little thing, sometimes I don't even know why I died, but the punishment remains the same.
Also, I think loosing all modifiers on death is too much, I think it could be better to only lose the ones you've interacted with, so I could be motivated to run the map again even if I lost once
I'm trying to reach lvl 90 on my invoker, and oh boy, it's a pain. You die, you lose exp. Do a few more maps, die again, rince and repeat.
Now i understand why most players simply give up at around 90 and start a new character. The campaign is much much more fun, you don't get punished that bad (in standard or ssf mode) and it's a great learning curve.
That being said, now when i fail a map due to some rediculous mechanic or some over the top damage( burning ground anyone ?) , i simply pop in a lvl 1 waystone without ANY modifiers and speed through the map to get it over with. Then i log off, go do something else and come back once i've cooled down and feel the need to play again.
I can predict this though : if they keep the same things(mechanics/bad maps (filled with trees so you don't even see the mobs)) and the same punishment, then a lot of players will leave once they get bored with dying over and over again for mostly crappy loot. Loot that by the way either drops below the map (weird....) or fills your screen with so much clutter it aint fun anymore.
p.s. The times i shouted FY can no longer be counted. Frustration galore.
This. 100%.
The punishment is frustrating because most of the times it's undeserved. My last death: I open a breach and I'm half a second late in laying down the usual BS Spark carpet. A mob spawns on top of me and stuns me, adding to the delay. I'm forced to roll, but now I'm very late in laying down the aoe of doom. Two more mobs catch up to me and hit me and... I'm dead. Just like that. Total time, less than 2 seconds.
This issue is born of power creep. In the end the PCs are so strong that only a massive amount of damage delivered in a very short amount of time can actually kill a character. And since the devs have made clear that "there must come a time when you have to feel powerful", the only avenue they left themselves to confront the player with actual danger is to rush damage onto the character before most normal human beings can react. It feels so unfair that sometimes gets infuriating. It's dishonest. And it's a kind of dishonesty that would not be needed if the devs stopped trying to cater to people with power fantasies and instead balanced the game around a slower and more careful pace.
Death is just too quick for the level of punishment involved. You need a reasonable buffer to not get 1 shot, but the only way to get that right now is ES, or abusing gemling to stack more hp than normal, and rely on instantly killing screens. It is a real turn off when the 3 minutes of "skilled" combat is simply clenching your asscheeks and hoping you don't get hit a single time. Makes me not want to do bossing until I can just pop the boss effortlessly. When it takes 5-10 hours of grinding to get a boss attempt, im not throwing that time down the drain just to be instantly spanked on the ass and sent to the corner for my audacity.
It would be cool if GGG added a slow-motion replay of the death blows, so we can get an idea of what killed us.
@@vt6020 Even just a text recap telling you what hit you and for what amount of damage would be great; I think LoL had something similar
My only complaint about the punishments occurred yesterday. T17 delirium map. I was zooming and crashed. It was treated as a death. All the loot I left, the map bonuses, tower juice..... all gone. Because of a DC..... I smoked a cigarette and got back to it but it was a major *feels bad man* moment for sure
yea what happened? DC used to just burn a portal now its treated as a death. I had two crashes burn two maps last night.
Same thing here, and its not consistent, had 3 DCs yesterday, 2 of the made me lose a map, the other let me back in.
@qaztim11 yeah day 2 after launch was the only other DC I've had and it let me back in the ultimatum. I think if they treated a DC like that (and maybe removed the league mechanics but not the tower juice) itd be fine imho
Disconnected are very inconsistent whether you lose your portals
Yea, they were supposed to pause the game on crashes. That doesn't seem to be the case, ive lost a few divs when breaches breach the 4th wall and straight up drag my latency to infinity because the server just took a taco bell dump. Every time I see a div disapear to that (since you just have to sit there and look at a frozen screen and all the goodies that are gone) it kills me inside.
My endgame gripe is I hate how dependent we are on trading. I want to play the game, not shop on PoE Temu & pray the seller gets back to me. 🤦♂️
SSF is your friend. (when they've fixed crafting)
Why do you feel you need to shop for items? I'm not even playing solo self found and I have 3 characters at end game. All above level 90, all capped res at 95%+ even chaos is at 70%.
Can kill bosses in about 2 seconds and map clear speed is fast.
I have not traded a single item. Just used the currency exchange to sell a divine for 145 ex and made all my own gear.
@@doctortraumacock use the currency exchange with alva. It will open a lot of doors for you if you're smart
@@newworldforward1842 No its not. You can say that about a game like Last Epoch where you opt into solo self found it actually gives you extra luck buffs for better drops. Here you get nothing.
I play SSF on tradeleague. So you can use the currency exchange and then you can trade with someone in chat. I play on Xbox so i can’t really trade and it’s dumb I agree. They should add an ingame thing. Like maybe a specific zone attached to hideout that has an auction house
The opposite of the "no stakes, no joy in victory, no enjoyment" is "rising frustration, relief that it is finally over, dread of having to do it again in the future." Souls has former. PoE2 has the latter. There's a reason so many CC's have mentioned rage quitting. That's not normal. And sure, other parts of the game are good enough that they come back later, but how many won't be back?
And as to character not good enough, that's an argument like the trade system... it's a cop out GGG uses as an excuse not to fix their broken designs. Typically, your character breezes through most of the content. But one particular combo of factors hoses you. For example, most of the "league mechanics" on maps are not well balanced compared to the rest of the map. And certain combos on maps negatively impact things, like having faster mobs with one of the already fast mobs that also happen to have the haste trait. If you can't one shot that, your typical ES build is dead. Yeah, I could play a cookie cutter OP build using a ton of high value gear bought with in-game currency I don't have... but should I need to research a ton of stuff outside of the game and improve my character through the auction house just so I can have fun? I mean, if I'm going to engage in the economy and "work" to do it, I might as well as work a double at my job and then buy that stuff for $$$. It'll take less time and reward better. But that's not why I play games.
Anyway, I think your idea sounds good, though I'd expand upon it slightly, also applying it somewhat to the other mechanics. Basically, as long as you haven't engaged the mechanic, it stays. Don't activate the mirror? It'll be there for you. Don't trigger the expedition? It doesn't go away. Don't do a ritual? They'll all be waiting for you. Only if you have started the thing and then die does it go poof. Basically, stop people from abusing death to restart it, but don't deprive people of the experience if they happen to die before starting it.
I disagree that stakes / punishment have value, the souls games have virtually negligible punishment for death, yet they're lauded as the pinicle of rewarding gameplay. A game doesn't need any punishment to be rewarding (infact punishements usually have the opposite effect) it need challenging fights, loosing stuff if you're defeated doesn't make winning any better, it just make loosing feel worse (and encourage players not to play).
@@matthewbentley1236 I wouldn't fully agree. Many people play on hardcore because stakes are very high, so they do matter. But it's not only a poe thing. They probably play it more like a roguelike rather than just soulslike. I also understand GGG not wanting the game to be a cookie clicker where you only progress faster and faster without any pushback from mistakes
You are 100% correct as far as my opinion is concerned. I know some folks love that feeling of overcoming adversity but I do that in by business every day. A game is a toy. I don't want toys that punch me in the nuts for messing up, that's what real life and my company customers are for.
@@Kuzka_ Sure but compounding punishments isn't helping. Its just making people frustrated.
I agree with the op that punishment isn't needed to make it rewarding. But losing time is a punishment. Add to that losing xp losing map losing currency (rolling maps) losing drops ... Yeah it becomes a bit much.
Yin and Yang is how the universe functions. Without punishment there is no reward. Souls is punishing because you have to fight the same boss over and over.
@@gerbo8018 Ye ye, not saying that it should be a hardcore level of punishment. For me personally the problem is that the gameplay is not that fun, compared to poe1, but it's obviously about preferences. And since it's not that fun, my second monitor tends to take away some of my focus which results in deaths. I think *some* of the punishments could be taken away or changed and it wouldn't become a worse game
9:35 I really like the idea ziz had on this week's blastcast. Maybe have 6 portals for white maps, 3 or 4 for yellow maps, and 1 or 2 for red maps
I have no issues with things being hard. What I have issues with is that when getting hit you have a very high likely hood of just getting one shot.
I've played PoE 1 so being one shot is not new to me but they have made it so that unless you are playing super meta builds, or have found the gem in the ruff, that you will have a hard time.
I think I can speak for allot of people when I say that getting just your 5-6 Ascendancy is more difficult than it has any right to be.
I had a hell of a time on my Infernalist in order to the the 3rd ascenscion points, but i managed to 1 shot the sekhema trials on my second character.
Sekhema is hard gated due to your relics, just a couple of honor resist relics are a gamechanger, problem is that the good ones dont drop untill you are attempting your 3rd/4th ascenscion, since the idea of the trials is for you to run them multiple times to drop better relics and make it easier, the least they could do is make it so that you dont lose XP when you die in trials, or add in a relic merchant so player dont need to farm trials before actually having a chance to clear them.
Dying on the 3rd/4th floor of sekhema or on the 7th-10th floor of chaos is already punishment enough, no reason to lose EXP, you are already losing up to 30min-1hour of progress.
7-8 is a galactic gap. That has absolutely no right to be damn near unachievable for the average player. It just propagates a "carry me" meta. I was able to get mine, but I'm not an average player my 800 hours is testament to that. The difficulty spike just going from trial 3 to 4 is absolutely disgusting, even the white mobs become bosses, especially if you got boned on boons.
@@jordanbauerly8843 its easy actually you just need good relics , i thought it was impossible now i can farm lvl 80 trial of sekhemma and kill the boss without geting hit.
I can give you a little tip for the boss , when he does the 360 spin lightening spell where things on the ground appear , if you stand still in the bottom left corner you dont get hit and take no damage
@jordanbauerly8843 yea I'm scared to even try that. And I have 2.7k hrs in poe1
@@qaztim11 I don't die to honor. I straight die
Whatever they do, I hope they keep the 1 portal per map because that solves SO MANY issues poe1 had.
Ironically, heavily punishing death leads to hyper speed dps only builds being the *only* thing that is viable, because it comes out to a net positive. Especially considering that the only good defensive layer 5k+ ES + grim feast (for 10k+ ES) is not available on all builds, even more restricting build viability.
I understand 1 portal + loosing map mechanics and it's true that it "raises the stakes". But the repercussions lead to worse and worse gameplay.
The thing that finally made me quit was actually the interview, where Johathan said that the exp loss "keeping you in the place you're supposed to be". His exact words. That really pissed me off, because to me that meant that their approach to death is trying to waste as much of the players time as possible when you die rather than letting you slowly get stronger to overcome whatever killed you
truth is sometimes harsh
You probably prefer POE 1 corpse-spamming.
if they have brain dead takes like that i'll wait for it to release instead of getting into the early access period. watch how it goes from here. nothing i despise more when it comes to gaming than devs adding stuff just to waste our time. this is only tied by crazy microtransactions that equate to buying a full price triple A game or quad A lol
@godlynewbie their shitty takes have to do with MTX as well. Waste enough of your time so you buy more. They won't make an auction house cause they want to force you to buy premium stash tabs.
Hitting the high end levels is a nice challenge it’s only a few extra passive points if you don’t hit cap and will be essentially maxed out in other aspects of the game.
I’m okay with everything except for losing XP as it’s a waste of my time. However, it’s the one-shot deaths that will cause me to drop this game for a while. There’s no way to avoid those deaths because most times I don’t see what killed me, so no time to react.
Im the opposite.
I couldn't care less about the xp, I just want to keep doing the events (league mechanics, boss fights, mirrors, and breach)
If i could just respawn like any normal arpg.. pick up my loot.. and finish clearing my map.. id be happy with everything in poe2.
I dont play hardcore because I want a more casual feel..
Ggg leveling philosophy has always been about diminishing returns. There's a reason why we plan builds to only lvl 80. You aren't expected to lvl to 100, nor should you need to. Lvl 90 is basically my mark for a character complete. Beyond that is prestige.
@@ferinzz you said that. keep the punishment for lvl 90+. for the elites :)
I think there is one more death consequence not mentioned: Do not die on 'unique maps' in your endgame map. You cannot try them again.
In regards to building tonky vs glasscannon: It makes no sense to build defense in the current state of game. My Titan is 2/3 of atlas invested in def and dies just as easily in T15 as my glascannon casters but with 10% of clear and 20% of movespeed. So whats the point in building def?
What are your defenses? If you rely on life + armor, indeed it's worthless.
Some glass canons are even more tanky because of huge mana regen.
I died more to random freeze from a white mod, two spears from beyond the visible area, or some ridiculous immortal yellow mob more than any map boss. There is something wrong with it. As long as those random deaths is the case, punishment should be tuned down. It's one or the other.
1 attempt per map sucks and xp lost after lvl 90 is devastating.
For me just get rid of the XP loss on death and make it so if I die on a boss give me a couple more tries before it is over. When I fought the Trialmaster for Trial of Chaos I died as I was learning the mechanics and then I had to go and get three more randomized fates to open the door again just to give it a second try... I took a week break from the game at that point.
I think people defending the end game are the ones benefiting from when broken builds were farming the end game and they were able to reap the rewards from getting HOWA and other op items. There's a clear gap and I truly believe the people saying it's fine have no idea what SSF or casual people feel because they traded their way to being over powered.
I steamroll t15s.. absolutely no problem killing everything without even stopping moving..
With that said, I HATE losing xp, items dropped, map, and the events that were on the map.. just because of 1 mess up..
I personally think that we shpuld keep the xp loss.. but do away with everything else..
Allow respawns
BUT
Dont respawn enemies on death like they do in the campaign..
But playing standard trade league and playing ssf is a choice? You chose to play that mode yourself and suddenly it's standard mode player's fault they thought it's easier for them on their endgame?
@@waywardlynx5651 why should they dumb it down for casuals. I like being rewarded for my time and effort regardless of it being a pointless videogame.
@@Nymerius87 That doesn't mean the game mode is good. This is still early access. SSF, and being a newb maybe shouldn't be as painful. It's not really good to point out it was a choice because people could just choose not to play. The worst choice for GGG is people choose to not play. In that sense you could also say it was GGG's choice to make players quit because of game design choices. "It was a choice" is probably nearly the lamest excuse from the perspective of spending money, and/or time.
Not true. I'm not using broken builds and enjoying the endgame just fine. Endgame is still better than anything else in this style of ARPG currently regardless of it's current issues.
I didn't find POE2 that punitive. In the late game, when you die you lose the map (waystone), the "events" of the map (breach or boss, for example) and 3% of xp. Yes, it's annoying to die and have to grind these resources again, and as the map is infinite you end up recovering the map events too, but in less than 3 hours it is possible to recover all this.
In my opinion, the real problem is the repetitive grind and lack of buffs on the map. The late game needs more content, and considering that the game is in the alpha it is obvious that later on we will have more maps and more different events.
I've played games where dying means losing months of progress and that makes us value the small achievements. If the grind is fun, people will keep playing regardless of the punishment.
I think when doing the atlas we should get a choice when we die, lose 10% exp and start the map again or brick the map but not both! That still keeps deaths meaning something but not SO punishing!
Love the idea
Choice always makes punishment feel less bad.
I quit every time I reach endgame. I'll repeat it until I die...the game doesn't respect time; especially in endgame.
It literally deletes your time when you die...
Game is mobile trash in it's state right now.. everything just designed to waste your time. Go play PoE, that is mainly designed without Tencent business model
@@m.h.4907 crybaby
@@neyedol crybaby
I agree. The cost of meta is cosmic now. The sub-par gear even with the best optimized skill tree will lock you in T15 and lvl 90 at max. So, what's the point?
PoE 2 is getting there. The balancing needs a ton of work. As OmegaSybers originally thought that PoE 2 would be slower and more methodical combat vs PoE 1, he's finding out that vision was not entirely true. Not entirely true because your characters move at PoE 2 speeds, while the mobs are from PoE 1. I feel they should bring back the multi-portal defense because GGG almost rarely ever balances the game in proper time. Most players have passed on before GGG finally removed totems being mandatory for melee in PoE 1.
I agree, XP penalty cut in half. Right now it feels devestating to die in maps at high level, at half XP loss it would really suck, but it'll be manageable.
If your level 92+ you basically are forced to wait till you hit next level and are on less then 1% xp to do pinapple bosses or highly juiced dilerium maps as dying on softcore even, lead to so much XP penalties that you have to grind for several hours (92) to several days (95+) just to get your XP back! Imagine trying arbiter of ash on level 97 dying 6 times taking 60% experience loss... I would seriously go bonkers and ragequit. Some penalty sure alright makes reaching those levels something to be proud for but to take 50% of your level away at 95+ is too much...
Then I want GGG to enable exp loss during campaign too
Make it fair
@@K1m9857 how about the opposite, make it fair.
@bananedc1 then scrap everything, give everyone immortality and all the item
Shut the game down
Make that the gold standard for every game and destroy video games entirely
Since it means nothing
👍
@bananedc1 stay in diablo 4, the game for casuals, please
@ sure removing the xp penalty is the same as destroying everythin in this game, what a pedantic elitist you are my dude x) also i would play d4 if they had some content to play, and i'm not paying the price of a full game for a dlc blizzard!
At this point, I don’t care about PoE2 anymore. Just give me the new league for PoE1 and let them cook the PoE2 stuff.
the need to drop XP punishment, it takes long enough after about 88-90 to go up a level, if you die you "feel" you are going backwards - I can accept the map losses etc but not XP
100% the opposite for me
I couldn't care less about xp..
I enjoy the map mechanics, that's the part that bothers me to lose..
If I never see level 100 because I keep dying, fine because I'm not good enough to get to level 100..
But damn.. I wanted to fight that boss.. or that breach..
@@wolfskymoons "not good enough" can be translated to "I do not have 100 div"
@@Diogen74
I dont understand what you mean. Please expand on the thought.
@ I mean that gear is everything and no one finds it. Everyone buys it. If you have 100 div you can make a one click build that annihilates everything. It's not about skill at all.
@Diogen74
Ssf is an option for those that want more of a challenge..
Losing your progress is not 'punishment' for failing, it's abuse. We've already lost enough of our time when we have to respawn back at another point whether it's the Campaign where bosses reset to full health, or you lose the entire map and any loot you missed out on, when you fail there? Losing XP on top is just typical GGG sadism. And then there's the Warrior and Armour.
You only start losing EXP once you hit Endgame. Not in the acts.
bosses and mobs resetting is NOT an issue, lol.
getting -10% xp on dying in a map, however, is one of the most retarded decisions i've seen in any game recently.
The scary thing is, this word 'abuse' is the exact right term. People in DA relationships are way too often known to defend their abusers, even after often being nearly killed by them and a lot of research has been put into why. The psychological effects of the abuse with the time and equivalent of "sunk cost" and the thing that draws people back to their abusers is exactly the same things that is going on with people wanting to leave PoE2 and then eventually coming back. Abusers know their victims will often come back because they end up blaming themselves. However, it is actual abuse, and it negatively impacts the rest of their lives, no matter how small the abuse.
Even abuse in a video game will negatively impact the lives of the people who are impacted by it, and I am really appalled by how many people are engaging with this abusive behavior; and on top of the abusive behavior, actually doing menial work for GGG by spending dozens of hours just sitting around being manual trade bots.
I would never have expected this level of deliberate psychological abuse to come out of a company from NZ. I have worked with a lot of NZ people in the past, and they have normally been really respectful and understanding that workers are people and have a good attitude towards people's health and mental well being. Traveling there has always been great. This sort of abusive behavior is completely unexpected.
@@BremSterGames 🤣🤣🤣
@@BremSterGames oh my god, it's a fucking game targeted at a more hardcore audience. not a husband who comes home drunk and beats you. holy fuck youre delusional. log off
People don’t like being one shot. It’s just not fun. The game is designed in a way where both the damage you deal and receive is insane. They should tone down both. Even assuming you accept one shots on bosses, it’s just a general feel of being fragile when trash mobs you come across in maps also kill you instantly. Then you factor in dumb map modifiers you can’t even run with most builds. A more intelligent approach to difficulty would be through attrition. If your build can’t handle an encounter, you run out of life flasks and you die. This motivates the player to keep improving their builds and gear to reach a point they’d be able to beat that encounter. It’s not about adjusting the punishment. That’s just a bandaid to a fundamentally broken balance. I like the xp loss and map loss. What’s important is that I should feel like I deserved that punishment when I fail, not because some random mob one shot me in a map
For a game director that said "only bosses and pinnacle bosses should be able to one shot players" I still get readily 1 tapped on multiple of my characters. By white mobs in maps. Doryani Elites are the most recent ones to do it. Characters with over 5k effective health and max resists, or max resists with paper mache, otherwise known as Armour, with 3k HP.
They really need to get over their incorrect mentality that Armour is fine and just needs tuning. Armour just needs to do what every other game in the universe does. Flat DR. No variable reductions.
1 shots are a hard target to hit. Tons and tons of people sacrifice defenses for damage and expect their 70% evasion to hold off all incoming damage, but they also expect that the one hit they do take shouldn't kill them and allow them to escape. It's an insane loop that doesn't make too much sense when breaking it down further than the general "1 shots suck." Do you really know if you should have survived the hit, or are you attempting content outside your power level? Or are you pushing content with 90% evasion and 1700 hp?
@ Most people's, I assume, baseline is when they get 1 shot by a white mob in a map, they're comparing it to all the other white mobs that don't 1 shot them in the same map.
I did give a frame of reference for an example. Over 5K eHP for multiple characters with only one of them wearing paper mache (Armour) and with 3K HP, all with max resists. Even went so far as to name the White Mob that has one shot 2 of my characters recently through 5k eHP. Doryani's Elite. Evasion is not only unreliable, but not mentioned by myself or OP. Armour is paper mache because it only mitigates damage from smaller hits and gets progressively weaker the bigger hit you take. So it does exactly the opposite thing that you'd want armour to do.
One of GGG's biggest issues is that only one source of defense is reliable right now, Energy Shield, since it makes your effective health significantly higher. The one person that dug into armour the most on RUclips was Kripparion, and his solution to armour was to use Energy Shield. I wish this was a joke.
When this is your Defense system, it's no wonder people get 1 shot. Better yet, their last improvement to armour actually made a bigger difference to monsters than players, since the equation change to DR with Armour applies to monsters as well, causing a nerf to every player that does physical damage.
@ in a game where every build shoots for energy shield, you should have the objectivity to recognize and acknowledge defensive mechanics that need a tremendous amount of work.
@sol5916 I agree. GGG needs to make some massive changes to Armour and Evasion to give them viability that isn't "Just add Energy Shield." Because that's just reinforcing that they don't want three viable options for defense.
Although I'll try to predict the future. They will nerf Energy shield like they did in PoE1 to make sure that every defense sucks, instead of making Armour or evasion good.
It doesn't make sense to me that in soft core you lose the waystone when you die. Basically you are playing softcore until endgame then suddenly you are forced into hardcore playstyle
Died in back to back maps at 87 level and just logged off, I don't even know what killed me the 2nd time. I just couldn't continue after that set back it just feels brutal. I since made a new characters and never playing that one again. The campaign is awesome and the progression feels great until End Game.
So it did stop you from running waystones you can't handle. It worked.
@@circaen I can handle the waystones the End game is just trash. The mechanics are poorly designed and punishment unfun. The only thing it's doing is making people stop playing. Maybe I wasn't clear above. Hopefully they can fix the End Game and overall progression soon. PoE 2 can eventually be a very good game, key word eventually.
@@circaen He can do it, but he is not enjoying it. So, there is no point for him.
@@Diogen74 he can't do it. He is too busy crying. His tears lubricate the market so I'm still selling mid tier items. I appreciate his sadness.
When the endgame starts to feel like the only real danger are one-shots, it starts making any sort of defense feel almost worthless. Of course, we're all aware that having resistances and defense keeps you from getting whittled down as fast from enemy packs, but then getting one-tapped out of nowhere makes you think "why even bother with ANY defense if this thing can just bypass all that work". I'm okay with bosses, especially Pinnacles, having one-shots here or there, but they also need to be telegraphed enough that a player can still avoid it if they're paying attention.
The issue becomes, what is the standard set for defences, if its set to something too high that only giga try hard streamers and poe sweats can achieve than everyone will say its unfair, if its set to a level where casuals can build defences to not get oneshot then any mildly sweaty player will easily make a character that will be unkillable in any aspect of the game. Whats the solution?
I semi tilted and died 3 maps in a row 5 days ago on my 91 ranger and haven’t picked the game up since then because I am still frustrated I lost 30% xp which is like 10+ maps to get back and lost all that juiced work and exalts from maps
You should learn how to dodge and/or get more damage.
@@andrewjackson1915 10 maps?????????
How on earth will you ever manage to play 10 maps?????? HOW????
DEAR GOD the game is becoming a scrubfest really fast. Why don't you all uninstall the game and let people that take 40 minutes to do 10 maps enjoy it???
Just gtfo and good riddance
@@harborwolf22 Yeah just dodge the invisible on death effects or corpse explosions from a mob 2 screens away when your entire screen is cluttered with nonsense vfx. What a retarded argument.
@@harborwolf22or just play a different build that requires 0 skill and isn’t very fun at all
Or, how about ... he can just express his frustration without you gatekeeping a**holes chiming in with unsolicited "advice". xp loss is the worst mechanic ever in gaming history and yes, it was also pure cancer with D2 ... there was just no social media for people to complain on.
As many have pointed out, there is a fundamental problem with the XP loss - it means they can never focus on actually challenging encounters, unless their intent is you can only try those encounters immediately after levelling, which is equally terrible.
There are so many different problems with the game that made me stop playing and I won't be coming back until something major happens to fix them:
-the economy has been wrecked and if you didn't get in on the archmage spark mf train early enough you are too far behind to participate in the economy
-the duped items and uniques that were id'd and rolled back weren't removed so you can't trust any unidentified unique on the market
-maps are every bit as rippy as poe1 eight mods but without the extra portals to mitigate the random unpredictable 1 shots
-balance is so wildly out of whack it feels like they didn't even bother to do an internal playtest or the difference between armor, ES and evasion would have been blindingly obvious
As it is I have put in double the hours and roughly the same amount of currency I would in a poe1 league but I don't feel powerful even though my gear should make me feel like I am.
GGG seem to have this idea of what the players should want and its ruthless hardcore but effectively nobody plays ruthless and the vast majority of players don't want to play hardcore going by the markets, leaderboards ect. So they develop the game they think we should want instead of the game the players actually want and you get nemesis rares or kalandra league and instead of learning from the disasters like the poe1 team did the poe2 team made the same mistakes and some even worse ones. And also some totally obvious and basically unforgiveable stuff like the trial of chaos sekhema modifiers which are directly copied from poe1 without considering the difference in gameplay, especially mobility. It really does feel like wow where the internal teams don't have enough playskill to complete the content so they turn on cheats to 'simulate' what the players are capable of and you end up with things that can only be achieved because of it.
"GGG seem to have this idea of what the players should want and its ruthless hardcore but effectively nobody plays ruthless"
I think this needs to be repeated more.
A very small and very loud minority of people still hasn't evolved out of the need to flex, and they're making it everyone elses problem. Absolutely love the game, but im too old for that level of punishment. Somehow doubt that 17-year olds (which seems to be the target audience) will keep their game afloat
@@nemojotun1284
Some things never change man.
Hardcore players have always been like this and always make it everyone elses problem.
Just like i dont understand how any of these people enjoy the way they play
They clearly dont understand that everyone else doesnt care for what they perceive as good and fun.
For me losing the map mechanics and xp loss are the worst! hands down. I'm a slow learner bc I dont have enough time to learn using third party software and guides and feels like an unorganic way of playing. Having the game punish me for learning the game feels awful and more like a gimmick. I find my friends are all using similar builds that they barely understand simply to keep up with meta and survive. I respec'd my character easily more than 30times and each time understanding the tree and nodes better BUT end game gets real boring bc dying means you're locked out of doing content. it's ridiculous and feels like gate keeping for people who have enough time to memorize so many damn items and skill tree combinations that break the game. if you dont break the game. you lose. period.
Welcome to poe.
Took me 4k hours to be able to take my off meta meme build to ubers in poe1.
But also keep in mind this is the worst version of the game. More skills more ascendencies and maybe you'll find something more your style. Sometimes a system just 'clicks'
Exactly. I hate it that you need to break the game to play it.
You know what's more sad about this horrible punishment? people will find it so hard that they will rely on someone else build or will search for the most busted budget build possible they will not experiment on their own or make their own stuff they will just gonna find something that will fix those horrible bs punishments, and they don't actually get into the whole point of the game and some of them just quits the game
@@crzyblue6046 crybaby, gitgud
Agree with you m8 but there are folks like me who enjoy experimenting with the game, builds, gems, etc. Thats a large part of the enjoyment I get from it and won't ever look at a build guide.
I like your ideas, for the most part. Personally I think it's a little lax to always allow at least 2 tries on a map, but that should be an option when needed.
This would be my approach:
Waystones: On failing a map, return the waystone used, but at normal rarity with no modifiers. You can always alch orb it again to get new ones, and you're never left having to go back to lower levels after a failure. Success still uses up the waystone, but you got what you wanted out of it. Reduce the waystone drop chance modifiers a bit to compensate for the lack of lost waystones.
Map modifier conditions: Lose one map condition at random per failure, not including the boss condition. Failure while fighting the boss only removes the boss condition. This serves as a penalty, but also as a bit of a handicap system, as the map will have become a bit easier for your next attempt, without making the map a complete waste of time right away.
Portals: 6 portals, no changes to current system where dying once fails the map, but add possible modifier rolls to waystones that add an extra respawn. Save those up for risky maps and boss fights. This also gives you a new goal of rolling one of these waystone modifiers in prepration for a tough fight you may have unlocked but not feel ready for.
Lost loot: After a map failure, replace the 6 blue portals with a single red portal that allows you to go back to the map one time to collect whatever you can carry. Monsters will be despawned.
Exp loss: No change to exp loss amount, but instead of losing it permanently, add it to a pool of lost exp. Add possible waystone modifiers that grant a small percentage of your lost exp in addition to normal exp gains. This allows you to catch back up more and more quickly after entering a death spiral. The more you bank, the more returns you'll see from that small percentage, and extreme losses while you're still early-endgame and figuring out your build can be returned massively as your survivability improves, reducing the slog of leveling up in the high lvl 90's. As it's a percentage of a pool that decreases as you earn it back, you can never recover all of it, meaning a certain portion by level 100 is still technically lost, but how much that is will vary and doesn't feel like nearly as much of a loss. This was a system implemented after the community revolted about exp loss on death by an old MMO I used to play, Anarchy Online, and it worked great and appeased most players.
With these changes, losing exp is a setback, but not a total loss, and entering a death spiral then playing a waystone with good exp recovery+exp gain will feel sooo satisfying as your level shoots back up. This also serves as an incentive to keep playing and catch back up instead of feeling the weight of that loss and resigning for the play session.
Failing a map loses some of the benefits, including those from your waystone and one of the conditions, but you're not back to square one unless you fail multiple attempts, and if you do play a riskier map, you can bring a waystone with an extra respawn just in case. I wouldn't allow more than one additional respawn, personally. 6 feels excessive. If I die on the same map 6 times, especially as it is now where it has no modifiers after a failure, you may as well take everything away. I don't deserve it anyway, haha.
Pre-patch, I would have 100% agreed with your concept of never removing bosses, but the overseer tablets and increased boss spawn chance seems to have done wonders for my atlas. Can't speak for others but I have no shortage of bosses to fight now so I'm not terribly worried about it anymore.
After Death effects time should be shortened. I don't mind it, but take too long for them to disappear
that would make them take to short to react xD
This has been something games have struggled with forever. I personally think too many people are caught up in the idea that punishment equates to difficulty. Losing experience, items, progress... whatever makes losing 'have consequences' and therefore increases the difficulty of the game.
Except it doesn't. If we play checkers and every time you lose a game you get punched in the face it doesn't make checkers more difficult, it just makes losing painful.
It's weird to me that there seemed to be a very concerted effort to appeal to a broader audience and make the game more accessible in so many ways but at the same time they upped the punishments and painful parts of the game through the roof. Not progressing is already a big punishment and in endgame you're not just not progressing but also losing resources invested when you fail. Making it easier for that failure to happen and then dumping even more pain on top of it sure seems excessive to a lot of people.
Edit: you lose 10% of XP on death on maps regardless of level. Pre-70 as well.
Yes, the only exception is dying an "honor" death in trial of sekhemas as far as I know, unless they adjusted that too.
Thank you for the correction!
Are you sure?
the diff. is getting back the 10% at lv 95 is very diff. from lv75.
Have you been playing age of mythology? That sounds like the Greek's theme song. at @2:48
Death in hard games is the punishment. Please stop adding extra punishment developers.
If there was no punishment this would be such a boring game lmao.
GGG doesn't seem to be very big on encouraging players to be social for such a heavily MMO style game.
Playing in groups and having couch coop in the campaign is encouraged by allowing you to revive your allies, and that is completely gone in endgame.
Allow people to revive in endgame with no repeated Exp loss on death. This encourages people to play together again. Rather than encouraging solo play as GGG seems to always focus on.
In end game the bonus for having multiple people, is you get the keep the map and loot when someone dies, allowing you to still complete it as a group. Persumably, your group isn't just a few Random klepto dicks, and you share the goods around when they drop. I don't group up with someone a second time that takes the pure klepto route and just pockets everything while the fighting is still going on.
First, it's not an MMO at all. Second if they allowed what you are saying solo players would just quit because they would soon fall so far behind group players they couldn't afford to trade.
@WatchingFromWork6636 Massively Multiplayer Online... they have servers with thousands of players on them at once, able to interact with each other. Kind of textbook MMO.
Also, if you were playing couch coop with a friend/roommate/SO and you get to endgame do you think it's suddenly better that they make the game worse to play cooperatively? That's a confusing perspective. If this wasn't intended, the entire game would be just SSF and they wouldn't have invested time into couch coop for both consoles and PC. It'd be a single player to a device.
Besides, he asked for ideas. This was one that sprang to mind. I think encouraging player interaction in an online game, MMO or otherwise, with a built in couch coop system makes tons of sense. Anything else would be antithetical to the core aspect of it being online.
Definitely needs to be a coop pass at some point, its sort of a bolt-on feature, really hard to find each-other, ending up playing in the wrong instances, just needs some time and effort at some point.
@ no because you want co-op players to have a distinct advantage. That’s the problem. If that happens the economy is broke beyond repair because co-op can basically Zerg the game and solo has one chance and done. Now you see the issue? You kill the solo player given trade is so needed currently.
Also just because a lot of people play online doesn’t make it an MMO. It has very few features of a true MMO. It’s an online multiplayer game, huge difference than an MMO. May sound the same but it’s not. StarCraft is an online multiplayer game. It’s also not an MMO.
Expierence loss is the biggest pain point I think they should remove from death. Leveling is a way to help you progress your power. Doing more damage can often improve your defenses in the sense that if you kill fast enough you won’t get hit as much. Halting your ability to level basically makes the only way for you to progress power in the endgame is by getting a nice drop or finding a bunch of divines to help trade.
That is kind of the point. They wan't to keep you checked in, and unlike poe 1, the last 10 skill points aren't quite as valuable. No amount of points/levels are going to save you from not meeting the gear checks. If they added more defensive options to the tree, that might change. Level 90 is about max level, and 100 is a trophy.
I agree 100% with needing more defensive passives on the tree. The current system of gear checking is making players drop down to lower tier maps and that doesn’t feel good. I don’t necessarily disagree with the concept on paper but if something doesn’t feel good then there is probably a better approach. I think they mentioned changing the difficulty ramping during the tavern talk interview and that would make this experience loss argument moot.
I think the only death penalty should be losing your waystone - not losing map mechanics, not xp, etc just making you spend another waystone if you die is good enough I think
Waystones are so common this is useless lol. No on cares about losing waystones.
GGG designed themselves into a corner with the new Atlas. Jonathan himself said they'd like to maintain the content on the node, but it would cause abuse cases (because of how they've designed the Atlas).
We had a wonderfully designed and iterated Atlas in the first game they could have simply used, or used until they came up with something better, instead of something monumentally worse.
@@Alias_Fakename that is BS ... in PoE1 the BASIC of atlas is to make the mechanic you want to spawn in every map you do ... what they want to keep is TIME WASTING of players having to run basically empty maps just to get to the mechanic they actually want to run which is HORRIBLE design
@@Asghaad time spent in a game is where the board of directors look.
"sometimes" difficult to find gear in SSF, good one mate 😂
Gearing up in ssf needs insane game knowledge and most people think you do it by rare drops.
Now let me guess: are you one of these people?
Right lol ..." sometimes".
@iluvatarchem i use all my currency to craft gear, it rarely happens that i find an item that needs no further adjustment, still the results are random and it takes time to get the gear you want, so wrong guess but no worries
@Swabian90 I'm running all six characters through to end game at the same time on SSF. Which helps in a way but at the same time kind of hinders you. Unless of course , you're willing to armor swap , which i'm not. You are very correct sir, It definitely takes time.
@Swabian90
m8
Didn't you just said that gearing is hard in SSF?
If so, you are a scrub by default. Nothing you say matters on this, be it imaginary optimised crafting or optimised farming.
You do neither of these things so why are you even answering to me? I've never had any problems in SSF in this or in POE1. Sure it takes a lot more time but you end up destroying any content.
SSF is meant for experienced players, not clueless crybabies, and these players are not on utube/reddit complaining about death penalties and bad rng. These players are busy grinding.
Now, gtfo
The worst is when you’re playing with a group of your friends and if someone dies, well…. now they can’t play with you until the map is cleared and a new one started. Or if everyone dies. Either way, a new map has to be started before you can play with your friends again. That just feels terrible.
While I do agree that there should be punishment for dying, the way it is set up now just feels bad. The 1 and done part of it needs to be reworked across the board. It’s turning players off and one of the biggest reasons people aren’t coming back.
They say they want death to show you aren't strong enough to progress but then the punishment for death ensure you can not become stronger. Doesnt make sense in my opinion. Remove exp loss
It locks you in place and this is exactly what they wanted. But I am not convinced it will retain them players.
The biggest change should be the exp loss. In essence you are gaining experience irl from the death, a person should be learning why they died and change their gameplay/strategy.
I just cannot get behind the stance of, “there has to be a punishment for dying” that everyone so vehemently defends. Yes other games have punishment mechanics, but they are just not as severe as POE 2. If you’re level 90 plus and die… you legitimately lose HOURS of time. That’s just not a fun gameplay loop.
You say you lose hours of time, but what is the reward you were working towards? 1% more DPS?
Bullshit deaths should be reduced but if your build isnt strong enough (or you're not good enough) to push to a high level ,you're really not missing anything by not getting there
@@whysoslow1999 I'm working towards being able to play the game... If I blink against a citadel boss map and some barely visible on death effect kills me before I get to the boss... the map is just gone. That feels like shit. Don't sit here and pretend POE has any level of skill involved. You just stat check the game or the game stat checks you. Most builds you legit click one button. Again, I will not understand why people like you like your time wasted any more than it has to be on this game.
@@EaglesOps24 It's hilarious to me the people that think there is skill in PoE when it's just as you said. Stat checks. Follow the right build and you're fine. Try to have fun and do different things and you're f*cked. There is no skill .. there is only build. Even dodge rolling becomes meaningless once you have enough move speed and DPS clear speed.
@ Exactly. This is a game that mostly rewards how MUCH you play, not how WELL you play. So, your punishment is basically deleting multiple hours of gameplay. If punishments are tied to skill, then I'm all for it but they just aren't right now.
I like your ideas a lot, nice smooth introduction to end game that doesn't change anything for their vision really and I think 1 death should improve things dramatically for those bs one shot moments
I’ve been literally thinking the same thing! I never understood why people always argued for 1 or 6 portals when there could be a progressive path involving, both relative to the waystones tier.
Not only should they refund us our waystone or boss key if we die. They should give us 1% exp to ensure we still get progress even though we die. There should also be a guaranteed drop of the rarest item the boss can drop after dying a certain amount.
Such heavy punishment does nothing but pigeon hole players into the meta. Why play anything sub optimal or progress in any other way that isnt the most optimal if you loose so much for deaths. This is why the goal is to one shot bosses rather then learn them, the risk of even seeing a boss mechanic is too high.
This.
I can't imagine being that player with the mirror on the ground. I would immediately play the super soft core mode. I finally after over 200 hours found an Audience with the King and deferred it. My worst nightmare (currently) is dying before being able to defer it again and losing it completely. That one item would double my current wealth. I would be crushed to lose it.
xp penalty should apply from 95 onwards and only be 10% of progress not 10% of whole bar.
At level 95, one death literally costs hours of experience points. XP takes FOREVER at that level. I suggest instead of losing XP, we instead gain a 0.5% buff to XP gain for every map we complete, and we lose that on death. So instead of actually losing our progress, we just lose the streaking buff.
There’s already a hardcore mode. Losing XP forces your character to plateau. When you hit high 80s low 90s experience already slows to a crawl, if you’re forced to do lower level content you would just never level up and the game would become boring and repetitive if you can’t progress. Maintaining xp with dying will at least allow you to level eventually.
Play better. Get better gear. Reaching max level is not a requirement. You want a game where everything is easier and you are celebrated for doing the most basic function you can go play D4. Poe1 has always had the xp death punishment and everyone appreciates that mechanic.
@@TheHollowBlade Better gear and higher value currency is gated behind higher tier maps. XP loss on death actually forces you to do the more basic lower-level maps for longer time. That is boring. Let the players get the better gear while slowly leveling up to feel some sense of progress instead of the yo-yo ing of gaining XP over several maps and then losing it to a possibly unfair death. If you want all of the map XP awarded at the end of completion, that's fine, but once earned, I should be allowed to keep all of it.
@@rajendra82a you dont have to be level 100 to clear higher end content. You can indeed clear t15 maps at level 85. I get what you are saying, but being level 80 vs 85 likely isnt what is gatekeeping you from clearing harder content, its either your gear or build. And if its not either of those then its your skill level. And honestly i doubt its your skill level.
I also want to note that when a league starts and the sweats take off, they dont complain about losing xp, or gear being too hard to get. They trade their way to good gear and smash, those who play ssf just get the good gear and smash. With your logic this would mean no one would ever be able to complete higher tier content since it would be impossible to achieve. Good players can be blasting maps1-2 days after the launch of a new season and killing uber bosses before the end of the week. Sure they spend 20 hours a day grinding, but if they can achieve that in a week you should be able to do it too with or without xp loss on death.
@@TheHollowBlade You are absolutely correct, level 100 isn’t necessarily needed to clear anything. There is absolutely no reason to artificially hold it back by taking away XP on death then. It is just a sadistic mechanic that makes players feel worse and rage quit why have it in the game if getting to max level is a goal people may like to have? If unskilled players slowly get there what exactly are the good players losing?
1. When you fail the map, the map is "completed" meaning you can move forward in the atlas.
I think a lot of people's negativity comes from having to being force to re-do de map that was failed (double stab)
2. I enjoy the 1 portal map experience, but I understand the player base feelings. My idea is have 3 portals on all, still think that experience penalty serves a purpose of "you shouldn't go higher level because you don't have the necessary gear/build".
3. FUCK ON-DEATH EFFECTS!
losing loot on death absolutely needs to change.
The end game is still in development from what ive seen. The 1 death wipe is absurd especially when you lose 10% which really can set you back in later levels. Something has to give with the punishments vs rewards. Crafting truly needs a face lift imo. I don't have a solution to crafting that wont piss off 1 side or the other. Whether that is more currency drops or just making crafting more predictable idk? But 150div for a good weapon or armor piece is out of reach for probably 90% of the player base and i imagine when the full releasr comes it wont change a bit
PoE 2. Where the players choose the path of Sisyphus and ask for a bigger boulder.
I'm not sure how easily it could by done, if at all, but dying in a map could maybe leave you with ONE last portal so you can go in and get the loot / finish the map. However, upon death it takes away the chance to gain any experience for the rest of that map. So you still get the XP Penalty from dying but have a chance to jump back in for loot / completion without gaining any experience on your last try (portal). That could be a happy middle ground? That along with multiple portals for pinnacle bosses and I think not much else would need to change personally. I love the difficulty of the game overall but losing maps / loot from one death can be somewhat annoying. That being said, once 1.0 releases I'll be playing HC SSF anyways so this is all just practice time for me at the moment! Once again, great video my fellow Exile!
Why there's no orb of scouring?
good question
it’s called orb of annulment now (white orb) and only works for magic items
@Madara785 orb of annulment works on all items other than uniques and it only removes 1 mod randomly. They exist in poe1. An orb of scouring takes any non unique item and returns it back to its white base.
The lack of scouring/alterations gives value to base items (white Stellar Amulets = 25ex) and makes them an actual "interesting" drop. Less clicking orbs, more killing monsters.
@@phrazz there is literally no difference in spamming alteration orbs and spamming bases. one is just way more annoying
I can't say no to Path of Exile 2. Even if GGG make it 100x harder, i would still play it :D
I absolutely hate the 10% XP loss. Once you're 90+ it's a MASSIVE hit if you accidentally die and just makes me want to log off every time it happens.
So buy omen of Amelioration to lose only 2,5%
@@1113pablo how about no... and just remove the 10% loss? Take 10% of my gold or lower it to at most 1% XP.
I'm so with you on that, but we're talking about ggg, they always go double on their punishments or nerfs, it's been like that in poe1 and i don't see it changing in poe2, which is a shame because i would try so many more build that aren't gigatanks if that penalty was gone...
I'm only 75 and it's ruining the fun for me
@@AwkwardTysontake gold instead please
If they're going to keep the 10% exp loss they could implement a mechanic which allows you to regain it all (or most of it) if you clear the next map you open, provided it is of the same or higher tier and rarity, perhaps through a deterministic drop of a quest item (something like a book of experience)
I suffer the random crashes the devs described as an NVIDIA related issue and sometimes I lose my map and sometimes I don’t. Having to navigate endgame with compounding punishment is enough without losing carefully planned maps to technical issue. For a softcore league endgame feels fairly hardcore.
the only thing im annoyed about is that i have to redo the maps when i die i dont care about xp loss loot loss or anything, but have to redo the map is damn annoying
Don't die.
Biggest issue with punishment during end game is lack of clarity towards what went wrong, the fact that i have to go back to clip of death and frame by frame to figure out what one shot me....
People need to be told in game that the average player isnt expected to get to level 100. Its the same for POE1.
Then the real answer is not not balance your game around less than 1% of the playerbase who are losers. That's the real world answer.
This is your takeaway? Did you comprehend anything else besides "u no get 100"?
i have 6k hours never pushed 100 in poe 1 because the game is designed by psychopaths
@@wsad1337 It is a suggestion. Do you really think a 2 sentence statement is my entire takeaway or are you one of those who immediately jump to the worst possible interpretation of everything they read? I played POE1 and came into POE2 with the expectation that I would never have a level 100 character. My highest in POE1 is 97. Many new players will expect to reach max level because their expectations are formed from previous games that are not POE1. A lot of anger can be assuaged by the game setting player expectations from the beginning.
@@davidreese5730 Or you could be content with less than max level. None of the content requires max level. It isn't needed, it's just something people want.
The problem with punishment for failure is players will seek to avoid that punishment. That results in a smaller number of viable builds to be played because people will gravitate towards more meta builds to avoid punishment and that basket of meta builds will shrink as the content becomes more punishing.
After last night’s rollbacks costing tons of people their juiced up maps, some disconnection protection would be nice
Is that what was happening last night? Server lag seemed bad too. That's the worst way to die for me. There's lag, and next thing I know I'm pushed in a corner getting pounded by mobs and can't do anything.
It's great that you bring this up for discussion because I've felt the same way. How great that there are so many different opinions and we can have a lot in common too
Just because there are harder modes doesn't mean that the base game shouldn't be challenging. If they make endgame punishments less severe, the only thing I would be okay with is an implicit on waystones that says "stability" and can roll 1-6. And the only reason I'm okay with that is because it adds another dynamic to the game
And I'd like that implicit to be weighted in a way that 1 is more common and 6 is less common. And don't forget, part of the issues are people getting ahead of themselves and trying content they aren't ready for yet. If someone is dying so much it's angering them, they ALWAYS have the opportunity to turn the difficulty down by doing a lower tier map and gearing up and leveling up more.
True.
Your solution at the end I think is pretty perfect. You can even have modifiers to towers to increase the number of portals.
Breaking news, players are upset when the game tells them they played progressed or geared poorly. More at 11.
Just breaking. Game needs to retain players, who like rewards and hate punishment. That's why people play a game, which is supposed to be fun, and not a chore. More to follow with additional details about the ratio of elitist snobs and regular players.
Love your idea. I think explaining how it works to the casual player base would be something they struggle with. But if they had a decent onboarding process for how the portals work as you progress that would be great.
The way the system currently is theres no way to make the endgame interesting at all to me. The only viable way to play is with the map bosses at a difficulty level where you always get em in 1 try. And that's boring af, theyre not bosses at that point its just a fat trash mob...... mainly at the start of endgame if you push your waystones up to a point where the bosses are actually interesting. You're inting. The 2 systems are fully working against each other in a no fun allowed kinda way.
actually your take on how many portals you get from white/yellow/red waystones was very good. and also the take on when things like map bosses or breaches arent done yet and you die that they will stay until done.
I think an interesting solution would be to revert to the 6 portal system while also removing rarity from gear.
Then allow players to sacrifice respawns for 30% iir each. That'd get people that are comfortable with handling a 1 portal back to the rarity software and allow everyone to just gear for character power. When you are feeling immortal, take away a portal for more drops. Then you always feel like you're in control of your risk/reward and don't have to feel like you sacrifice power for loot.
Also you'd still have the option to increase your respawns on maps you're unwilling to fail.
in the first week i died just as a div droped. i turned off the computer and went right to bed
people still turn off their pc's ? interesting
I don't think you mentioned that you cannot re-attempt a citadel if you fail it. I cannot reopen it with a new waystone, I have to find another citadel. Also I think they could scale the number of allowable deaths per area depending on the difficulty.
I think every death should be accompanied by a short video of Chris Wilson explaining to us why we died.
remove the xp penalty. i hate it in poe1 and i hate it in poe2. there is a reason why mmo's stopped putting xp loss in as a death penalty, because it fucking sucks.
On death effects are uneeded 90's game design to punish people. It's just not good design, it's not fun. There should be relief after you kill a mob/rare not anxiety while you try to pick up the loot.
1 thing I NEED in the game is combat log. I need to know what killed me so I can understand where I messed up or where I'm weak so I can fix it. Without combat log, 100 things going off at once and me dying to 1 of those things doesn't tell me anything.
Make resistances add a '% of x damage taken over x seconds' with both amount of damage taken and the time it's dispersed over scaling with capped resistance. This would improve player-TTK and incentivize further defensive investment.
I think most players care more about the difficulty curve, than the actual hardest difficulty.
So maybe, a bunch of resurrects for low level maps, and then no resurrects at the highest levels.
That said, if they're really going to have a 0 resurrect mode, there can be absolutely zero "bullshit" insta-kill mechanics.
Here’s my idea for "on death's effects":
They shouldn't kill you (Or only a specific type of "on death" effects). Instead, they should be able to reduce your health to 10%, 5% (or maybe even 1 HP?), block life regeneration for 3 seconds, and so on-but they should never be capable of outright killing your character. These effects could freeze you, slow you down, or apply some sort of curse that makes you extremely vulnerable to damage-even from regular mobs (practically guaranteeing a one-shot in such cases). Alternatively, if you're not careful, something like burning ground on the map could finish the job.
What are the benefits of this approach, in my opinion?
The dopamine rush from avoiding death: Think back to all those moments when you were on the verge of dying but managed to survive-that feeling is amazing. With this change, such moments would happen more often.
A better sense of what killed you: Currently, you often die to an effect you can't really see or understand (this just happened to my character, which is why I'm writing this long comment,...).
Maintaining the mechanic GGG insists on: This wouldn’t completely remove the "on death" effects that GGG seems so attached to-and they likely won’t change that anyway.
Improved balance between tension and downtime: It would create a better balance between moments of action/pressure and relaxing phases like looting. Right now, even after killing all the mobs, I still have to stay on high alert to avoid dying, which can just be exhausting
I'm for having some stakes and reasonable consequences when you die in a game like this. But they really did a terrible job transitioning from campaign to endgame, I don't really care if you're a God gamer and disagree.. It's just a fact, it isnt an opinion.
The absolute jarring shift in gameplay was enough but the punishment for dying added on top of it is such a questionable design decision.
Throughout the entire 40 hour campaign death was such a minor thing, and then all of a sudden without warning you lose basically everything. XP, map mechanic, waystone, tower buffs, dropped loot, your TIME.. fuck what else? There's likely more.. It's to much to deal with, especially for players Iike myself who don't really enjoy hardcore, or game modes that overly waste your time investment.
They need to step it back and make it less punishing initially, while introducing the endgame mechanics to people who don't know or understand them yet. Maybe add another passive tree to increase the consequences of death while granting bonuses for choosing to run those nodes. Right now If you die alot and can't engage with the maps then you're not gona learn, or want to learn.. And it's a problem they simply can't ignore or double down on because people absolutely WILL stop playing and never look back.
I have faith in them though, I believe they'll get it right so as of now I'm not taking the endgame overly serious, just trying to dabble and enjoy it for what it is currently.
Agree, i cant wait for all the complaints to turn this game into d4 where it will provide you everything you need for free and ensure that you are never an upset little baby. Hold daddy d4s hand, we will ensure you never have to face any hardship.
You are not meant to reach max level. I been playing poe since 2013 and never once had a character reach max level. You can become a god slayer without reaching max level. Also if you are dying so much to the point where you cant experience any mechanics or figure them out at a fundamental level is 100% a you problem.. not sure what you are doing wrong but if your experience is that bad maybe poe aint for you.
@TheHollowBlade I don't believe I mentioned anything about reaching max level.. I'm not personally dying constantly but I'm on the forums a nice bit and alot of people cannot progress throughout the game or learn it's mechanics because the endgame is not well tuned.. At all.
Defend it all you want, when white trash mobs are scarier then map bosses then something is obviously not right.. Especially considering the bosses in the campaign were pretty lengthy, challenging fights. Where as in endgame early tiers you barely have to think and they die in 30 seconds.. Meanwhile 1 or 2 chaos shots or fuckin on death effects or those poison spitting serpents deal INSANE amounts of damage and are beyond overtuned compared to the campaign end areas.
Also I can't take you serious, anyone who says "you're not supposed to reach max level" and thinks that's a good point for defending game mechanics and design decisions is delusional. It's the same way in classic D2 lod.. As much as I love that game It doesn't make it good.. having to kill the same 2 or 3 bosses 4000 times just to reach level 99 is stupid. But that's beside the point.. No one's asking or cares about that.. This is about not losing like 10 fucking things from dying one time. And smoothing out the early endgame to be more comparable to the 40 hour campaign that precedes it.
You can stay in your little fantasy land where the game is perfect and no one gives any feedback to improve it. Write GGG and tell them to give you your own private server where it'll never be updated or patched again so you can enjoy it forever if it's such a perfect game. Fucking PoE community is full of morons.. I swear I've heard more the you say " I've played 10 years and never beat this or never reached max level". Like it's some sort of great accomplishment having NOT achieved something lmao.
I think I only have 2 comments on the end game right now and one was helped out a ton by the ability to change the rune stone or soul core in sockets in that its really hard to keep all the defensive layer balanced and try to plug one last hole such as ailment threshold and stun threshhold. With regard to other end game mechanics I would say that the only change I'd like to see is rather than closing the entire map instance on death just remove all the mobs and content from the map but allow the remaining portals to be used for picking up loot.
This change would keep the idea that the goal is to complete maps without dying but it would also let players interact with things like Breach and try to push their character limits without losing the benefits of being able to do most of them but occasionally die to a bad siutation. Breach is a good example as it also represents a situation where looting during them is counter to the idea of how they work and is a really good way to die.
I think its also important when talking about PoE 2 specifically to be careful about talking about more portals versus the respawn system they introduced for pinnacle bosses. You have the same number of portals in PoE 2 as you have in PoE 1 they just disappear if you die. A group of 6 going into a map in PoE 2 is exactly the same as a group of 6 going into a map in PoE 1 so the idea of more portals is not accurate.
After thought, I also think a huge part of the end game being to punishing is players desire to push as high as they can as fast as they can whether they are ready or not. Even in PoE 1 most players have learned that you start with a character that is good at map clearing and then farm T1 maps to afford gear to run juiced T16 maps or to gear a character that can farm bosses. With all the new players in PoE 2 they think that if they can access it they can do it and the fact is that neither PoE 1 or PoE 2 are built that way. Players need to slow down and realize that just cause they have something of a higher tier it doesn't mean their character is ready for it.
I think a good way to balance the concept of portals in the maps would be as follows, basically the player will have the portals, but every time he dies, he loses one, plus the map benefits are reduced by 25% for every death, which makes dying still punishing because now there will be 25% less loot and so on and so forth, 25%~50%~75%~100%, just like in Monster Hunter, when a hunter faints out several times, he gets practically nothing at the end of the hunt, this makes the player take full responsibility for his progress and control over it, encouraging him to be more careful but keeping the most important thing in a video game, the fun.
They just need to add 2 things. 1) They need to add a ‘chase-item’ (that’s difficult to acquire) that gives us 1 free Revive (Group play) or 1 free Resurrect (Solo play) in Maps. 2) They need to let us know what killed us - so we can decide if we can deal with it, or if we need to bounce and make adjustments before losing everything on our next death in that Map.
Since you implored I'll leave my opinion before seeing the rest of the vid.
There is one large change they need to make imo:
Change the loss of the map on death to the loss of the map after all portals are used up. This not only greatly lessens the punishment but also forces player choice as well, since your "lives" for the map are tied to your ability to leave and drop off loot you are being forced to sacrifice those lives for the loot, and you make your loot choices more meaningful when low on "lives". This is hands down the biggest and most impactful change they can make to the mapping system.
I agree with your analysis - your approach to the endgame punishment is very sensible and would be a big W for the game. At minimum, there should be more portals and only XP loss for the map you fail.
I'd like for special bonuses on the map node to progressively decrease or disappear on failure, so that if you keep failing it's a blank node, but one failure only gets rids of one of the mechanics or juiciness you spent so long putting on it via tablets.