I will not cruse on any diesel or gas ship. So it will be sails and/or solar and/or nuclear. Hydrogen is a bad idea since the efficiency is very low. But maybe the best is just not to cruse for "recreation".
Some clarifications/additions: You show samples of ocean liners: Ocean liners were made for fast ocean crossings, they were made for high speed and therefore rather more powerful (kW/passenger) than typical cruise ships. Diesel-electric drivetrains are common in cruise ships nowadays, but not in shipping generally. Cargo ships still use "direct propulsion", diesel engine attached to the propeller (more efficient). Animations of futuristic sail-cruiseships often conceal the fact, that the sails (or also solar cells) are only a little addition to the propulsion system, which is typically based on fuel cell electric drive. The propulsion of the nuclear ship Savannah was not electric, but "directly" by steam turbine, like in many aircraft carriers.
It’s a fascinating project. The lightweight design of the ship and the use of water jet propulsion makes it a compelling case study. Here’s hoping it works and can be scaled up to cruise ship size!
@@BoatMan-y6o The problem is range. Batteries are bulky and heavy, so a one day car ferry route can be done on batteries. But a two week container ship voyage can not be, because the batteries would take up so much space that it would reduce the capacity of the ship.
You have to distinguish between the use of gas turbines and the use of LNG. Cruise ships, which use LNG, use it by "normal" piston engines (dual fuel), not by gas turbines. And the ocean liner Queen Mary 2 fuels its gas turbines by a liquid fuel similar to jet fuel. Cleaner than HFO, but not as clean as LNG. But easier to store and handle than LNG. LNG is cheap, but you can't get it everywhere. So they use dual fuel engines for the ships. The use of HFO was getting increasingly restricted over the last years. I'm not sure, whether primarily LNG-powered cruise ships use HFO as well. The dual fuel engines might tolerate only MDO and LNG, but not HFO.
I did a little bit of research: Dual fuel engines CAN use HFO as well. But still: LNG is cheap as well. If you have a ship that can use LNG and if you can get LNG, you will probably use LNG.
I did a bridge tour on a cruise ship once and the question of fuel usage came up. This, like many oceangoing vessels, burned heavy Diesel at 52 feet per gallon.
In the early 1960's the steam turbine powered Windsor Castle was considered fuel efficient consuming "only" 245 tons of oil per day whilst maintaining her nominal service speed of 22.5 knots. The1961 built Transvaal Castle {the last large passenger liner built for the Union Castle line} had a small bulbous bow and "cold iron'' capability.
Chris. The one question that I was keen to hear and the title of the video, how my much power, I do not think you answered. Would be interesting to know how much a ship like the biggest “Icon of the Seas” uses while at Cruise speed and while in port.
Icon class has three Wärtsilä 14V46DF engines. Each can deliver 16,030 kW (21,790 hp) and they have three Wärtsilä 12V46DF as well, producing 13,740 kW (18,680 hp) each.
Thanks Chris. Roughly 90 mW is what I read from your reply of the 6 engines combined. I assume that includes spare capacity so they can still travel at normal speeds with at least 1 engine out of service, so about 60-70 mW I guess they need. When in port, if they connect it to shore power, how much would the port need to provide?
@@robbroere1384 The propulsion system is electric, with three azipods á 20 MW, together 60 MW. The diesel engines can produce up to 89 MW mechanically, I suppose this will probably be about 80 MW electrical output of the generators. So the propulsion system CAN consume the major part of maximum generator output. In port, the ship will consume just a fraction of the maximum power output.
@@701983 thanks for the answer, 20mW I assume is at maximum speed, so slightly less at optimized cruise speed. I guess that 10mW can probably power the ship apart from propulsion. So 70mW to have 100% operational and that means you can have 1 out of 6 engines out without impact and 2 out of 6 out with minimal or no impact depending on the speed.
@@robbroere1384 And consider the relation between speed, drag and power to overcome drag! Drag (the force) follows speed squared, power to overcome drag follows speed cubed (basically). Half power is still enough for 79% speed (roughly). By the way: Please don't use "mW" (milliwatt) for MW (megawatt)! That's pretty irritating!
The fact that the propeller is already driven by electric motors is really good news. This means that the diesel engines can be ripped out and replaced with a nuclear reactor. This will also open up space on the ship for revenue generating operations by eliminating the enormous fuel tanks. This could be especially useful for cargo ships. This increase in revenue generating space plus massive savings on fuel costs over the lifetime of the ship will more than offset the cost of buying and installing the nuclear reactor. Also, nuclear powered ships will last considerably longer than diesel-powered ships. Big oil can only fight the future for so long. Nuclear power is the fuel of the future for the shipping industry. ☢️🚢
Nuclear power in shipping is indeed already widely used in some of the Navy ships. All the US Aircraft Carriers introduced since the USS Nimitz class around 50 years ago that are now in service are Nuclear powered after the Diesel-Electric ones were retired. Many submarines are Nuclear powered as well. The problem is more about passengers perception then about safety as they have proven to be safe.
Icon of the Seas: 6 diesel engines with together 89 MW power. Propulsion by 3 electric motors (Azipod) with together 60 MW power. Maximum 7600 passengers. So 11,7 kW maximum power per passenger. Something about 10 kW per passenger is pretty common for today's cruise ships.
Due to the high engine speed of turbines both steam and gas, they require a gearing system to reduce output to efficient propellor speed, this also produces a place to absorb the thrust of the propellor and transfer it to the ship's hull, this unit might be heavier and larger than the turbine itself. In the case of diesels, these are usually divided into two categories for ships, medium speed and low speed, medium speed diesel operate at about 1000 rpm max and idle at a much lower speed, these too require reduction gears for correcting shaft speed to suit the propellor although less reduction is required and thrust absorption. Low speed diesels run at speed of about 100 rpm, they are very large and are directly connected to the shaft. Medium speed engines produce from 1000 hp to about 10,000 while low speed engines can produce upwards of 100,000 hp.
Getting enough sail area on a 100,000 ton cruise ship would require masts as tall as the Eiffel tower, it ain't gonna happen. The few sail power cruise ships still have to run a generator all the time to power the machinery that manages the sails, the mechanical needs of the ship and the hotel needs. Even small sailing yachts almost always have an engine/generator to power when the wind doesn't blow or is going in the wrong direction. Technically ignorant people alway talk about Hydrogen, the 'H' word, nobody realistically talks about where to get it. There is no, I mean Zero, free hydrogen on earth, none. Most of it is bound up in a stuff called water, we have a LOT of that, but it takes 30 to 40 kilowatts to unbound a gallon energy equivalent H and that make it pretty expensive. Most commercial H is made by stripping the carbon from natural gas, the carbon comes off as CO2 that is then released to the atmosphere so this process environmentally buys us nothing. H cannot be pipelined, is difficult to store, and has this bad habit of going BANG when we don't want it to. Not good stuff to be carrying on a ship, especially with a lot of people. Natural gas can be used to power both diesel and gas turbine engines, this is a well developed technology. Turbines might be somewhat cleaner than diesels however the fuel efficiency difference is huge, diesels sip while turbines guzzle. Modern diesel engines are far cleaner than their gasoline engine counterparts and still getting cleaner and still have a significant efficiency advantage along with a longer service life and greater reliability.
So maybe the issue is just the first words of you argumentation, ie 100000 tons cruise ship. Sails have been used for boats for far more long than diesel, and PV can be used for on board electricity. Sure it will take more time to cross the Atlantic and leisure cruses are dead. And clean diesel ? Really ?? And of course it is not just about pollution of about climate warming. And we also must reduce dramatically cargo ships. And all before 2050.
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Would you cruise on a sail powered cruise ship?
No
I will not cruse on any diesel or gas ship. So it will be sails and/or solar and/or nuclear. Hydrogen is a bad idea since the efficiency is very low. But maybe the best is just not to cruse for "recreation".
Some clarifications/additions: You show samples of ocean liners: Ocean liners were made for fast ocean crossings, they were made for high speed and therefore rather more powerful (kW/passenger) than typical cruise ships. Diesel-electric drivetrains are common in cruise ships nowadays, but not in shipping generally. Cargo ships still use "direct propulsion", diesel engine attached to the propeller (more efficient). Animations of futuristic sail-cruiseships often conceal the fact, that the sails (or also solar cells) are only a little addition to the propulsion system, which is typically based on fuel cell electric drive. The propulsion of the nuclear ship Savannah was not electric, but "directly" by steam turbine, like in many aircraft carriers.
Battery power is being used in the worlds largest catamaran, the 2100 passenger, 130 metre, 40 knot vehicle ferry being built by Incat in Hobart.
It’s a fascinating project. The lightweight design of the ship and the use of water jet propulsion makes it a compelling case study. Here’s hoping it works and can be scaled up to cruise ship size!
A much smaller vessel than the huge cruise ships and liners being discussed.
@@BoatMan-y6o The problem is range. Batteries are bulky and heavy, so a one day car ferry route can be done on batteries. But a two week container ship voyage can not be, because the batteries would take up so much space that it would reduce the capacity of the ship.
@@Dave_Sissonvery interesting
Hi Chris, do you know if the ships that use gas turbines today use that exclusively for power or do some cheat and use heavy fuel oil as well?
You have to distinguish between the use of gas turbines and the use of LNG.
Cruise ships, which use LNG, use it by "normal" piston engines (dual fuel), not by gas turbines.
And the ocean liner Queen Mary 2 fuels its gas turbines by a liquid fuel similar to jet fuel. Cleaner than HFO, but not as clean as LNG. But easier to store and handle than LNG.
LNG is cheap, but you can't get it everywhere. So they use dual fuel engines for the ships.
The use of HFO was getting increasingly restricted over the last years.
I'm not sure, whether primarily LNG-powered cruise ships use HFO as well. The dual fuel engines might tolerate only MDO and LNG, but not HFO.
I did a little bit of research: Dual fuel engines CAN use HFO as well.
But still: LNG is cheap as well. If you have a ship that can use LNG and if you can get LNG, you will probably use LNG.
I did a bridge tour on a cruise ship once and the question of fuel usage came up. This, like many oceangoing vessels, burned heavy Diesel at 52 feet per gallon.
QE2 used to do 50ft to the gallon. The promo videos in the 1980s used to showcase that figure as a way to show the power of the ship.
In the early 1960's the steam turbine powered Windsor Castle was considered fuel efficient consuming "only" 245 tons of oil per day whilst maintaining her nominal service speed of 22.5 knots. The1961 built Transvaal Castle {the last large passenger liner built for the Union Castle line} had a small bulbous bow and "cold iron'' capability.
I didn’t realise Transvaal Castle could cold iron! Thanks for sharing.
Britannic and Georgic reportedly consumed only 40-50 tons of diesel fuel per day.
Just remember that you don’t always have to use all that power just because it’s there !
Chris. The one question that I was keen to hear and the title of the video, how my much power, I do not think you answered. Would be interesting to know how much a ship like the biggest “Icon of the Seas” uses while at Cruise speed and while in port.
Icon class has three Wärtsilä 14V46DF engines. Each can deliver 16,030 kW (21,790 hp) and they have three Wärtsilä 12V46DF as well, producing 13,740 kW (18,680 hp) each.
Thanks Chris. Roughly 90 mW is what I read from your reply of the 6 engines combined. I assume that includes spare capacity so they can still travel at normal speeds with at least 1 engine out of service, so about 60-70 mW I guess they need. When in port, if they connect it to shore power, how much would the port need to provide?
@@robbroere1384 The propulsion system is electric, with three azipods á 20 MW, together 60 MW.
The diesel engines can produce up to 89 MW mechanically, I suppose this will probably be about 80 MW electrical output of the generators.
So the propulsion system CAN consume the major part of maximum generator output.
In port, the ship will consume just a fraction of the maximum power output.
@@701983 thanks for the answer, 20mW I assume is at maximum speed, so slightly less at optimized cruise speed. I guess that 10mW can probably power the ship apart from propulsion. So 70mW to have 100% operational and that means you can have 1 out of 6 engines out without impact and 2 out of 6 out with minimal or no impact depending on the speed.
@@robbroere1384 And consider the relation between speed, drag and power to overcome drag!
Drag (the force) follows speed squared, power to overcome drag follows speed cubed (basically).
Half power is still enough for 79% speed (roughly).
By the way: Please don't use "mW" (milliwatt) for MW (megawatt)! That's pretty irritating!
The fact that the propeller is already driven by electric motors is really good news. This means that the diesel engines can be ripped out and replaced with a nuclear reactor. This will also open up space on the ship for revenue generating operations by eliminating the enormous fuel tanks. This could be especially useful for cargo ships. This increase in revenue generating space plus massive savings on fuel costs over the lifetime of the ship will more than offset the cost of buying and installing the nuclear reactor. Also, nuclear powered ships will last considerably longer than diesel-powered ships. Big oil can only fight the future for so long. Nuclear power is the fuel of the future for the shipping industry. ☢️🚢
Nuclear power in shipping is indeed already widely used in some of the Navy ships. All the US Aircraft Carriers introduced since the USS Nimitz class around 50 years ago that are now in service are Nuclear powered after the Diesel-Electric ones were retired. Many submarines are Nuclear powered as well. The problem is more about passengers perception then about safety as they have proven to be safe.
@robbroere1384 Absolutely. If I hadn't been in a rush to get to work this morning, I would have launched into that big time
Icon of the Seas: 6 diesel engines with together 89 MW power.
Propulsion by 3 electric motors (Azipod) with together 60 MW power.
Maximum 7600 passengers. So 11,7 kW maximum power per passenger.
Something about 10 kW per passenger is pretty common for today's cruise ships.
Due to the high engine speed of turbines both steam and gas, they require a gearing system to reduce output to efficient propellor speed, this also produces a place to absorb the thrust of the propellor and transfer it to the ship's hull, this unit might be heavier and larger than the turbine itself. In the case of diesels, these are usually divided into two categories for ships, medium speed and low speed, medium speed diesel operate at about 1000 rpm max and idle at a much lower speed, these too require reduction gears for correcting shaft speed to suit the propellor although less reduction is required and thrust absorption. Low speed diesels run at speed of about 100 rpm, they are very large and are directly connected to the shaft. Medium speed engines produce from 1000 hp to about 10,000 while low speed engines can produce upwards of 100,000 hp.
Very interesting topic, shipboard propulsion is rapidly changing in today's climate change environment.
long extension cords hahaha
Verschont uns bitte vor der grausamen KI-Stimme!
Getting enough sail area on a 100,000 ton cruise ship would require masts as tall as the Eiffel tower, it ain't gonna happen. The few sail power cruise ships still have to run a generator all the time to power the machinery that manages the sails, the mechanical needs of the ship and the hotel needs. Even small sailing yachts almost always have an engine/generator to power when the wind doesn't blow or is going in the wrong direction. Technically ignorant people alway talk about Hydrogen, the 'H' word, nobody realistically talks about where to get it. There is no, I mean Zero, free hydrogen on earth, none. Most of it is bound up in a stuff called water, we have a LOT of that, but it takes 30 to 40 kilowatts to unbound a gallon energy equivalent H and that make it pretty expensive. Most commercial H is made by stripping the carbon from natural gas, the carbon comes off as CO2 that is then released to the atmosphere so this process environmentally buys us nothing. H cannot be pipelined, is difficult to store, and has this bad habit of going BANG when we don't want it to. Not good stuff to be carrying on a ship, especially with a lot of people. Natural gas can be used to power both diesel and gas turbine engines, this is a well developed technology. Turbines might be somewhat cleaner than diesels however the fuel efficiency difference is huge, diesels sip while turbines guzzle. Modern diesel engines are far cleaner than their gasoline engine counterparts and still getting cleaner and still have a significant efficiency advantage along with a longer service life and greater reliability.
So maybe the issue is just the first words of you argumentation, ie 100000 tons cruise ship. Sails have been used for boats for far more long than diesel, and PV can be used for on board electricity. Sure it will take more time to cross the Atlantic and leisure cruses are dead. And clean diesel ? Really ?? And of course it is not just about pollution of about climate warming. And we also must reduce dramatically cargo ships. And all before 2050.